Description

Welcome to The Not Old Better Show, Smithsonian Associates Interview Series. I’m your host, Paul Vogelzang, and today we have a fascinating episode lined up for you. We’re delighted to have returning guest, Smithsonian Associate David Taylor with us, an acclaimed author and co-producer of the Smithsonian documentary film, “Soul of a People: The WPA Writers’ Project Uncovers Depression America.” David is here to share his insights on his upcoming Smithsonian Associates Walking Tour, titled ‘New Deal Projects Walking Tour,’ on the New Deal, a transformative period in American history that not only aimed to revive the economy but also left an indelible mark on the arts and culture.

Against the backdrop of the Great Depression, President Franklin Roosevelt’s New Deal was a bold initiative to use government resources to address crucial public services and stimulate economic growth. Yet, Roosevelt himself predicted that in a hundred years, the New Deal would be remembered more for its contributions to the arts than its job relief efforts. Today, we’ll explore that intriguing prediction through David’s expertise and his engaging walking tour of Washington, D.C.

Smithsonian Associate David Taylor will take us on a journey through time, beginning at Judiciary Square, where we’ll see public sculptures and dramatic courthouse bas reliefs by notable artists like John Gregory. Our route includes the Henry F. Daly Building, a prime example of Classical Moderne architecture funded by the Works Progress Administration, and the Federal Trade Commission Building, adorned with monumental Art Deco sculptures created by WPA artists. We’ll also discuss the renovations of the National Mall and Washington Monument, pivotal projects of the New Deal era.

We’ll conclude our exploration at the Department of the Interior, home to over 40 New Deal-era murals and photomurals by the legendary Ansel Adams. Smithsonian Associate David Taylor’s walking touroffers a unique opportunity to discover these still-visible landmarks and learn about their historical and cultural significance.

So, put on your walking shoes and get ready to delve into the rich artistic legacy of the New Deal with our distinguished guest, Smithsonian Associate David Taylor. Join us now for an enlightening conversation on The Not Old Better Show, Smithsonian Associates Interview Series. 

My thanks to David Taylor and his upcoming Smithsonian Associates Walking Tour, titled ‘New Deal Projects Walking Tour,’ on the New Deal, a transformative period in American history that not only aimed to revive the economy but also left an indelible mark on the arts and culture.  My thanks to you our wonderful audience here on The Not Old Better Show Science Interview Series on radio and podcast.  My thanks to Executive Producer Sam Heninger for all his work on audio and making things run smoothly here on the show.  Please be well, be safe and Let’s Talk About Better ™.  The Not Old Better Show Science Interview Series on radio and podcast. Thanks everybody and we’ll see you next week.

Transcription

• Speaker #0

  Welcome to the Not Old Better Show, Smithsonian Associates interview series on radio and podcast. The show covering all things health, wellness, culture, and more. The show for all of us who aren't old, we're better. Each week, we'll interview superstars, experts, and ordinary people doing extraordinary things, all related to this wonderful experience of getting better, not just older. Now, here's your host, the award-winning Paul Vogelzang.

• Speaker #1

  Welcome to the Not Old Better Show, Smithsonian Associates Interview Series. I'm Paul Vogelzang,

• Speaker #2

  and today we have a fascinating episode lined up for you.

• Speaker #1

  We're delighted to have returning guest, Smithsonian Associate David Taylor with us, an acclaimed author and co-producer of the Smithsonian documentary film, Soul of a People, the WPA Writer's Project Uncovers Depression America. David is here to share his insights on his upcoming Smithsonian Associates walking tour. titled New Deal Projects Walking Tour on the New Deal, a transformative period in American history that not only aimed to revive the economy, but also left an indelible mark on the arts and culture. Against the backdrop of the Great Depression, President Franklin Roosevelt's New Deal was a bold initiative to use government resources to address crucial public services and stimulate economic growth. Yet Roosevelt himself predicted that in 100 years, the New Deal would be remembered more for its contributions to the arts than its job relief efforts. We'll hear David Taylor talk about much of that today. We'll also explore that intriguing prediction a little bit more with David's expertise and his engaging walking tour of Washington, D.C. Smithsonian Associate David Taylor will take us on a journey through time beginning at Judiciary Square, where we'll see public sculptures and dramatic courthouse paintings. Bad reliefs by notable artists like John Gregory. Our route includes the Henry F. Daly Building, a prime example of classic modern architecture funded by the Works Progress Administration and the Federal Trade Commission Building, adorned with monumental art deco sculptures created by WPA artists. We'll also discuss the renovations of the National Mall and the Washington Monument, pivotal projects of the New Deal era. We will conclude our exploration of David Taylor's walk at the Department of the Interior, home to over 40 New Deal era murals and photo murals by the legendary Ansel Adams. Smithsonian Associate David Taylor's walking tour offers a unique opportunity to discover these still visible landmarks and learn about their historical and cultural significance. So put on your walking shoes, get ready to delve. into the rich artistic legacy of the New Deal with our distinguished guest, Smithsonian Associate David Taylor, who will be appearing at Smithsonian Associates for his walking tour. Check out our show notes today for more details about David Taylor and his Smithsonian Associates walking tour. But join us now for a brief enlightening conversation on the Not Old Better Show, Smithsonian Associates interview series.

• Speaker #2

  David Taylor, welcome back to the program.

• Speaker #3

  Thanks so much, Paul, for having me.

• Speaker #2

  Well, it's great to see you. Happy summer. Hope you're doing well. We're watching the Olympics here and enjoying that, but I'm looking forward to talking to you about this wonderful upcoming walk that you have planned with Smithsonian Associates. These are always really fun to go on, and it's always a fun interview too, because I like the opportunity to describe some of the surroundings. I think that offers a really nice theater of the mind. But anyway, welcome. Well, let's just start kind of right at the start. Maybe tell us briefly about your upcoming... Smithsonian Associates walk, what we're going to experience and, you know, kind of what you intend for us to leave with. Right.

• Speaker #3

  Well, yeah, I was thinking about as we're now in the sort of the 90th anniversary of the New Deal from the 1930s. And it seemed like a good time to assess like, well, what is happening now? We've gone through several crises in recent years during the pandemic. And in some ways, people at that time were comparing that with. with the Great Depression. And so kind of looking back, and as you know, I've written and thought about that period before. So I got engaged in that, again, working on a podcast and also thinking about, well, in the landscape, what can we see? And actually, it turns out that from that time, there is a lot in, really, in towns across America, we can see evidence of things that were built during the New Deal, whether it's post offices or schools or roads. And one organization that got me thinking was this private nonprofit called the Living New Deal Project. And they have created maps of several different cities, including one of Washington, D.C.'s New Deal. And it's kind of just a thumbnail picture of. these buildings and sculptures and murals that we can still see in the landscape today. So I thought it'd be fun to go through Washington, go through a slice of maybe a couple of hours of walk and with a group of people who are interested in seeing that evidence still around.

• Speaker #2

  Thank you for that. Yeah, as I say, I think this is going to be wonderful. I really enjoy the architecture of Washington, D.C., especially these murals. We're going to share some of these murals, both in our show notes, but in the video. version of today's interview. They're beautiful. They have a very specific look to them. And I wonder if you could talk for just a second about kind of the goals of the New Deal and how those goals translated into kind of some of these public works, arts projects in particular.

• Speaker #3

  Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, as anyone who's sort of taken a history class, probably you'd hear the first thing you would hear about the New Deal was it was an effort by President Trump. Franklin Roosevelt coming in, he pledged a new deal for the American people to get out of the Great Depression. They've been dragging on for four years. He was elected in 1932. And in the years after he was inaugurated, he started to create this effort to get the economy back on its feet. And at the time, economists were saying, well, one way to do that is to prime the pump through public spending. And so the New Deal was kind of a two. step effort to spend on public works that were needed, that had been deferred for a long time. Infrastructure, you hear a lot about infrastructure. That was a really time when there had been needs for infrastructure for a while, but they had always been pushed off. But this was a way to both employ people and get them working, get people who were out of work, millions of people to work, and at the same time, build up the public of infrastructure, of roads, of pools, of things that we could see. and use and that were needed to get the economy going again. So that was a primary goal. A secondary goal, especially for many of the arts projects, was to keep the skills and the aspirations of people in play. There was a sense that, of course, at that time, even the idea of public support for people who were out of work, there was no social security at the start of the New Deal. There was no general even accepted consensus that that was a role for government. So it was still... provocative idea to create these jobs to even build the public works that were needed. But it was especially controversial to the artists and writers and musicians. It really took actually protests by writers, for example, saying, demonstrating as these infrastructure works got started saying, you know, we need jobs too. We have skills. And the New Deal became enlarged to hire thousands of writers and musicians and artists. with the idea of maintaining their skills, maintaining morale for when the economy got turned around and was able to employ them. So there was the idea that you could see the benefits of this society and you could see the values reflected there. And so that it could also be part of priming the pump so that people still have skills and have the morale to work and not just ride freight trains looking for handouts like millions of hobos that were riding the rails. the great depression so it was a it was that two-fold process of of really getting the economy started with infrastructure support but also at the household level getting families to feel back and part of the economy again have a at least a small paycheck from a new deal arts agency and the artists then feel that their skills are valued they could make a a mural representing their local history or in the case of writers they could be writing about their local town or a wpa guidebook to the state that would boost their self-esteem and their sense of agency. Well,

• Speaker #2

  I mentioned that you're a returning guest and you've been on previously and have been so popular with our audience. Of course, you authored the wonderful book, Soul of a People, the WPA Writer's Project Uncovers Depression America, which really emphasized this writing. Absolutely, there it is. And we will show it again on screen and provide that for people in terms of the links. Maybe talk to us a little bit about... some of the examples that came from the New Deal's investment in the arts and how that influenced some of the contemporary public arts initiatives that we see even today?

• Speaker #3

  That's a really great question because at the time, there was so much about the controversy about hiring writers and artists that there was a sense that, yes, they could contribute, but it was really just the paychecks that were paid off. But really, what you saw was an investment in especially young writers who were maybe just got out of college and into this terrible economy they gain the skills of being assigned to say interview their fellow citizens and write up and basically engage with the world, write up their response to it, and create meaning from that. And that did have a long-term influence on writing, on literature. I mean, what we see just in terms of the Writers'Project, people who came out of that were some of the first winners of the National Book Award, and really like a bestseller, Richard Wright's native son. He worked on the Writers'Project in Chicago and New York, and this Book of the Month Club. a sensation about race, about society in 1940 and was really kind of a very forward, at that time, a look at what these forces were in play and how we can look at them from different angles and not just accept the way we've always heard about them. There was a very much of a kind of a social everyman quality to both the arts, as you mentioned, the murals. There's a lot of both rural and almost mythic scale, human-centered scenes that workers and industry workers, farm workers, families putting food on the table.

• Speaker #2

  They have this wonderful look of strength and power. They're sometimes stocky and sometimes a bit squat, but I always look at that and see the strength. Is that a message that was portrayed and one purposefully done?

• Speaker #3

  That is a message. I mean, Art Deco, that style had started in the 20s and it was popular for showing things like a... social progress and this kind of eventual wave of society marching forward with the depression. And in the 1930s, it got a little subdued, but it was still very much the idea that, you know, working together, people can, you know, society can march forward and walk forward. So, a lot of these, certainly here in Washington, you see statues like at the Memorial Bridge of really powerful and leading a force forward, whether it's the idea of either plowing or just a journey. There's a real sense of strength, but not out of top-down strength, but really sort of a bottom-up strength that we have.

• Speaker #2

  Hi, it's Paul.

• Speaker #1

  Do you love entertaining,

• Speaker #2

  informative,

• Speaker #1

  eclectic, insightful programs about culture, health, science, life, and everything Smithsonian? As part of our Smithsonian Associates interview series on radio and podcast, we're introducing you to the new Smithsonian Associates streaming series. Smithsonian, a nonprofit organization, is excited to present this new aspect of their 55 years as the world's largest museum-based educational program. Join us from the comfort of your home as we periodically interview Smithsonian Associate Guest Speakers. Our audience here on radio and podcast can explore our website for more information, links, and details at notold-better.com. Thanks, everybody.

• Speaker #2

  Well, let's... take a little walk then. Let's do that, David. So your walking tour begins at Judiciary Square, and you're going to talk a little bit about some of the public sculptures that are there in the courthouse, the base reliefs. And this is some of the work of John Gregory. So maybe whet our appetites a little bit with regard to this work and tell us what we might see there and how the sculpture kind of ties into all of this too. Because again, it's very, very purposeful, in my mind, at least.

• Speaker #3

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's a long story. time about where to start this tour and both the buildings and the sculptures, as you mentioned, at Judiciary Square, seem like a combination that really speaks to both this creation of these infrastructure needs. So there had been, for over a century, the city of Washington had been trying to get a municipal center created and the budgeting for it was constantly delayed. But there at Judiciary Square, they finally... got funding to create, well, basically a stripped-down classical version. And they thought, well, that the sculptures that they commissioned at that time would really sort of soften and make more of an impact. So, there is this sense of several figures that are, yeah, the bas-reliefs that are in stone, as you mentioned, the John Gregory one. There's one called Light, Water, and Thoroughfare. And it sort of represents in classical figures these public goods of light, of utility, water utility, and of transportation, public goods that could actually see then characterized in these public settings. It hadn't been done in quite that figurative way before the 30s, before those New Deal buildings. So, I thought that was a good place to do it. Again, stepping back to FDR, Roosevelt said, one of his statements was that, in a hundred years, my administration will be... uh remembered for its art not its its jobs really and uh i mean that was a i think it was intended as kind of a provocative statement as a statement to get turn the spotlight away from this controversial uh paying people who were out of work to go back to work but i think it was aspirational that that and we're still you know 90 years on it's still maybe Not maybe too soon to say, but we still can look at the things like the sculptures that Bar release at Judiciary Square and some of the ones even more monumental. We'll talk about it in a bit at Federal Trade Commission and all that really show this sense of public life and the values that we have about society and progress that he and his administration put kind of a stamp on the landscape.

• Speaker #2

  I'm a former federal employee and worked at. the Treasury Department and so many of the government office buildings, I think, are enjoyed by those of us who worked within them. The one that you're going to talk a little bit about there at Judiciary Square, Barbara Lee, with regard to the Henry F. Daley building, is representational of a government building that looks very strong and very powerful in the same way that some of these sculptures and artworks do. And tell us a little bit about. that building and the classical modern style that was used and what the construction, because there's a lot of great stories there with regard to the Daly building. Yeah.

• Speaker #3

  And actually, I'd be interested to hear any that you would care to add on to. There are so many. And it's interesting because sometimes those who have worked inside it and have seen a lot of it, whether it's murals or other, even just some of the architectural details that you can't always get to now, especially in the age of heightened security. I will only be able to cover some of them. So I would imagine some of the people walking on the tour with me and maybe yourself too would be able to fill in just from that daily exposure to whether it's the elevators or the filigree around on the stairwells. Just things that become part of our everyday impressions that the tour and this kind of walk will be able to slow us down and see this is something that was put there intentionally. Whether the architect. And in the case of the Daily Billionaire, in the case of the, actually, the architect of the National Archives, John Ross Hogue, he designed that building well before the Depression or before the New Deal in the 20s, but it didn't get funded until going into the 30s. But he did have a hand in choosing who the sculptures and the designs were there. So in some ways, those show that effect in this figurative scale and things that we can relate to more strongly than sometimes the big square stone buildings and the columns. But the combination really is powerful. And I think that the people going in there, whether it's into the municipal building for its purposes now, or into the justice halls or the courthouse, you get a sense of this public life that was intended. And then the bas-reliefs gives sort of a human element that make us appreciate them in a different way. But that monumental scale, the height of the ceilings and the stone lobbies give us a sense of, wow, a public life that... really is remarkable. One thing that struck me, I don't know if you saw the movie Fences a few years ago with Denzel Washington. And mostly it happens, it takes place in Pittsburgh. It's in a really, not a prosperous section of black Pittsburgh, but it was one of the shots it shows is Denzel Washington working downtown for a bit and going past a big mural in the place where he works. And you get a sense of these aspirations of society. And then the contrast with people's lives in their homes and what they're...

• Speaker #2

  kind of pulling together in the in hard times but that there is these big social spaces give us a chance to think about what we do value what we hope for ourselves and for our and for future generations yeah you i think you you're exactly right it it is a little bit of a shame that we're not able to get entry to some of these spaces now kind of post 9 11 post povet even i remember within the treasury building the the indian treaty room was so beautiful because it just represented this just this gorgeous space of real importance. And so Treasury had a number of receptions there that we as employees would get to go to. You mentioned the Federal Trade Commission building, and that is another one that is just stunning and strong and but very much in the Art Deco kind of mode. Maybe tell us a little bit about the Art Deco and how that was embraced specifically when it comes to the art and the architecture of the Federal Trade Commission building.

• Speaker #3

  Yeah, so that is a fascinating Federal Trade Commission building too. was an agency that had started a couple of decades earlier. In 1914, there was a relatively new agency that was with the idea of protecting consumers and fair competition. So it was sort of a populist agency, but it didn't really get its full life until the 30s with the new FTC building. And there's great stories there. I look forward to talking about those. On the tour, one of them is simply about the commissioning of... some of those monumental sculptures. And one is of a bare-chested muscular guy controlling a really powerful horse. The idea is controlling trade. The idea of this agency, this bureaucratic agency represented by a kind of a hunk. key guy mastering and keeping this uncontrolled force of trade from getting out of control and really giving a chance for the public to gain this good. One of the stories that I love about that sculpture actually is the artist who got that commission was 29 years old working on a WPA arts relief job in New Rochelle, New York. And then suddenly he has this commission that takes him to Washington to be able to create on a massive scale. something that he couldn't have dreamt of before. And I think that's one of the dream stories of these arts projects is that you would get a chance to work on a scale that maybe you were an out-of-work painter before. You get a basic job and then if you've submitted a proposal that's just at the right time, you get this commission to do what the Washington Post even wrote up two weeks before. He was just someone nobody knew and knew Rochelle New York on a WPA relief job. And now he's this on a $45,000 commission in Washington and is this sort of a turnabout of his fortunes.

• Speaker #2

  Yeah, it really resulted in so much change in the D.C. area. The National Mall and the Washington Monument are all part of this New Deal initiative at the time. Talk a little bit about those projects and how they contributed to the revitalization of big public spaces that all of us get to go to today.

• Speaker #3

  Yeah, yeah. So that was a surprise to me. Also, even looking and seeing that... Well, the Washington Monument had been planned for restoration, but it really took some of the funds from the WPA and the Public Works Administration, the PWA, to really make that happen. You're right. This is one of the biggest landmarks of U.S. Senate. We dated the New Deal, but it was one that was sustained by that effort at that time and that we continue to see and continue to enjoy. We often pass, you know, we think, OK, they built the... the Washington Monument, it went up slowly in the 1800s and finally it was finished and then we enjoy it. But there's all these steps of renovating and continuing to maintain the process. And the National Park Service is a key part of this landscape that we enjoy. They manage the mall, National Mall. And so it's a great chance to reflect on that.

• Speaker #2

  Yeah. And they're still very much a part of the city and softball is played on the mall during the summer months. We have, of course, the... the massive 4th of July celebration out on the mall and their Metro stops at Smithsonian, which exit right at the mall. So this is, it's a, it's a focal point, but it's also a, it's a landmark for all of the Washington DC denizens who know that that's the place that they can spoke out to and find other great things to do from. So yeah,

• Speaker #3

  it was just, in fact, so the, when the solstice happened in In June, some of the museums were open late. So I thought, I'll go down to the mall. So I went from the Library of Congress, walked down the mall and yes, saw several softball games, stopped and talked with one of the congressional aides, filled me in on Hawaii was losing to West Virginia, but they hope to get back. And all these small scale scenes happening on this big canvas. There was a, then there were also, there was a nonprofit playing kickball just on the other side of the World War II Memorial. And then many families going up to the Lincoln Memorial. So it was this combination of. yeah, local and even family scale dramas and scenes happening on this big, this big canvas.

• Speaker #2

  Well, of course, you've talked about your work. And I can't let you go really without mentioning again, the wonderful book that you've you've written soul of a people the WPA writers project and uncovers depression America, maybe touch on that just a little bit because the names of the writers that you uncovered that were part of that WPA writers project is a very impressive list of people, but maybe tell us a little bit about that book and where things stand today. Yeah,

• Speaker #3

  thanks for asking. Yes, this is actually, this year, I've had a chance to go back with the team at Spark Media that I work with on a documentary based from Solova People. And we've revisited it in a podcast called The People's Recorder, that really, where we can hear some of those voices, one of the famous writers from the Writers Project and from that time, Zora Neale Hurston. now recognized as one of the great storytellers of 20th century, she was hired by the Writers Project in Florida to document Florida life, and particularly Black Florida life. She interviewed people for the WPA Guide to Florida, and then she also proposed a recording tour, a borrowing of sound equipment from the Library of Congress, and using her background and ethnology to, really, to interview and to record the songs that people sang just in their home life. So she's one of the great ones. Ralph Ellison, who wrote Invisible Man, he worked on the Writers Project in New York. when he was out of work, but he had an ear for people's stories. And he was inspired by the interviews that he made in that time for the Writers Project. And really, that gave a shape for his great novel, Invisible Man, later. I mentioned Richard Wright. He's one. Nelson Algren is another great writer of that period. Several of his novels came out of his experience writing then. John Cheever was kind of a reluctant member of the Writers Project. He, you know, his short stories and his novel falconer later in the 70s too just really an iconic american voice and some voices i hadn't heard before going into this writer's project revisiting for audio tilly olsen in on the west coast and and people in chicago of course studs turkle we got the interview for the documentary file people will check out the people's recorder too to see really or to hear more of the voices of those great writers and and what they did both during that time but also what it means for us now.

• Speaker #2

  Well, our guest, of course, has been David Taylor, Smithsonian Associate Historian, author of just the wonderful book, Soul of a People. We'll have links so that our audience can find out more about David Taylor and his work, particularly his book, Soul of a People, and the documentary that David just mentioned. David, for anybody not able to join you on the tour, maybe tell us what your favorite mural is. We'll put that up on screen so that people can see it, but maybe describe it and tell us what you like most about it.

• Speaker #3

  Ah. That's a great question. There are so many great murals and really across, I mean, just traveling anywhere, that's what really strikes me is and what the living New Deal finds is that you can find these murals and things in post offices and train stations everywhere. But one that really struck me is in at the end of the tour, we'll find in the interior department building, one by Ben Shahn, a later famous artist. He created this really wide scope of building a really a monumental structure and he's You can see even the crane pulling pieces of the work into place. And you just get the sense of uplift of people working together on this massive scale and creating something bigger than any of them could imagine on their own. And that mural in the interior department really captures it for me.

• Speaker #2

  Smithsonian Associate David Taylor has been our guest. David, thanks again for joining us today, for being so generous. What a great upcoming walk. this is going to be. I just encourage our audience to check this out. You're in D.C. This is one of those must do activities with David Taylor. But David, thank you. Hope you have a great rest of your summer. And, you know, just selfishly, please come back. You know, it's so nice to talk to you.

• Speaker #3

  Thanks so much, Paul. It's been a pleasure. And yeah, have a great summer. The rest of your summer, too.

• Speaker #2

  Thank you, David.

• Speaker #1

  My thanks to David Taylor and his upcoming Smithsonian Associates Walking Tour titled New Deal Projects Walking Tour on the New Deal, a transformative period in American history that. not only aimed to revive the economy, but also left an indelible mark on the arts and culture.

• Speaker #2

  My thanks to you,

• Speaker #1

  our wonderful audience here on the Not Old Better Show,

• Speaker #2

  Smithsonian Associate Interview Series on radio and podcast.

• Speaker #1

  My thanks to executive producer Sam Hanegar for all his work on audio,

• Speaker #2

  making things run smoothly,

• Speaker #1

  absolutely here on the show as well as elsewhere. Please be well, be safe. Let's talk about better. The Not Old Better Show, Smithsonian Associate's interview series on radio. and podcast. Thanks, everybody. We will see you next week.

• Speaker #0

  Thanks for joining us this week on the Not Old Better Show, Smithsonian Associates interview series on radio and podcast. To find out more about all of today's stories or to view our extensive back catalog of previous shows, simply visit notold-better.com. Join us again next time as we deep dive into some of the most fascinating real life stories from across the world, all focused on this wonderful experience of getting better.

• Speaker #1

  No BS studios. I'm Paul Vogelsang. And I hope you'll join me again next time to talk about better the not old better show. Thanks, everybody. We'll see you next week.