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Welcome to the Not Old Better Show,
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the show covering all things health,
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wellness,
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culture, and more. The show for all of us who aren't old,
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we're better.
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Each week, we'll interview superstars, experts,
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and ordinary people doing extraordinary things,
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all related to this wonderful experience of getting better, not older. Now, here's your host,
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the award-winning Paul Vogelzang.
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Yep, welcome to the Not Old Better Show, science interview series on radio and podcast. I'm Paul Vogelzang and today's episode is brought to you by Diet Smoke, beautifully balanced cannabis. We have a truly compelling episode lined up for you. I think it is just one for our audience, but one for the ages. Absolutely. We're going to be diving into one of the most critical issues of our time. Absolutely no question. Climate change. Joining us is Dr. John Berger, a renowned environmental scientist. and policy specialist. He's also a journalist and an author of the groundbreaking book, Solving the Climate Crisis, Frontline Reports from the Race to Save the Earth. Dr. John Berger's work is nothing short of revolutionary. Many are saying that. He spent over six years meticulously researching this book, traveling the globe, interviewing himself, a diverse array of experts from governors to ranchers, scientists to entrepreneurs, all uncovering the viable solutions to the climate crisis. His new book, Solving the Climate Crisis, presents a three-pronged approach. We'll hear about it today, but briefly it's leveraging cutting-edge technology to achieve 100%, 100% clean, renewable energy. It's enhancing and protecting our natural ecosystems and updating laws and policies to foster social and environmental justice. It's perfect. timing for our presidential candidates and our election year. In this episode, we will be exploring the innovative technologies like clean steel and green cement, the role of forests and agricultural lands in storing greenhouse gases, and the vital social changes needed to support these efforts. Dr. John Berger will also share his insights on the economic opportunities that a clean energy transition could bring. including the creation of millions of jobs and significant financial savings with an enormous boost to our economy. Our discussion will delve into the political and social hurdles, though, that stand in the way of these solutions, and what we can do as individuals in the Not Old Better Show audience, our community of those over age 60, to contribute to this critical fight. Dear Not Old Better Show audience, this is more than just an episode. It's a call to action. Our planet's future is in our hands. It's time to act. Stay tuned as we uncover the strategies and innovations that could save our Earth. And now, let's welcome our distinguished guest, Dr. John Berger. Dr. John Berger, welcome to the program.
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Oh, thank you very much, Paul. I'm very happy to be here talking with you.
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Well, I'll tell you, I am... Very happy to be talking to you. This subject, climate change, is one that is on so many of our minds. You have such a wonderful way of presenting it. I'm a non-science person. I really enjoyed reading your new book, Solving the Climate Crisis. We're going to get into that. But what really fascinated me about your writing, Dr. Berger, was that this book really came about after six years of researching and writing. You really dedicated yourself to it. What? What inspired you to do that? Because six years is a long time to put a book together and do that in the midst of so much change around this subject.
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My goodness, if I were to tell you the truth, and I am going to tell you the truth, Paul, I have been working on this subject for decades, and I actually started with a book many, many, many years ago that was critical. nuclear energy because of the hazards of nuclear power plants and the high costs and a whole suite of risks that I felt we didn't really need to take and that we could pursue renewable energy technologies and I published that book with an introduction by Dr. Linus Pauling, a very famous Nobel laureate. I think he got one in chemistry and I think he also got one for his work. for world peace, but do that as it may. I started working on books on the environment, environmental restoration, and renewable energy technology. And my very first book on climate change was called Beating the Heat, How and Why We Must Combat Global Warming. I published that in 2000. And then I thought, well, after a few years, I ought to update it. And I started working, and I found that... I got distracted by the tremendous drama of what was happening to the Earth and the climate, and so I wrote a book called Climate. peril the intelligent reader's guide to understanding the climate crisis and in the course of writing that i spun off yet another book called climate myths the campaign against climate science and all of this was kind of throat clearing to get to the point where i could write about climate solutions which actually it took me about eight years but if you include all the other years spent on those precursor books it's gotta have been closer to 15 years that this book was in the making. So it's been a long time, and you asked me why I did it. To be, again, real candid with you, I have a deep love of nature, of life, of people, the natural world, and the outdoors. And consequently, I feel a deep anguish over destruction of nature, both by climate disruption. which we're seeing all around us now, and by unwise development. And so my privileged knowledge of several interrelated disciplines that bear on how to solve the climate crisis meant that I'm in a unique position to integrate that knowledge and bring these different disciplines to bear on how to solve the climate crisis, which is the most urgent. and ominous problem that human beings have ever faced. And it's the one that's most demanding of our resourcefulness, our creativity, and our initiative, and our public spirit. So add to that a conviction that I have that a solution to the climate crisis is possible, but at the same time, time is running out. So my belief is that we need to fight for life, for the future, and for the planet, and for climate protection. I basically devoted a lifetime of studies of clean energy, energy efficiency, the... human and natural resources and restoration ecology. And that all kind of culminated in solving the climate crisis, this integrative book where I tackle the ecological, technological, and the sociological, political, economic aspects and dimensions of the climate crisis. Because I really take exception to people that portray this. as a very sort of straightforward problem in technology adoption or a problem in politics or a problem in tree planting. This is a very, very... wicked problem, and it has these multiple dimensions, and you're not going to have a good solution unless it's multidimensional. So that's what I've tried to do in writing Solving the Climate Crisis, and to provide a roadmap to show how we get out of this terrible situation that we have created.
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Thank you for that. Yeah, I think... One of the things that I enjoyed was this, you kind of call this a three-prong approach to solving the climate crisis. It really touches on all of these areas. I think that was a surprise to me to see that included. Congratulations on that. I think another surprise for me, to personalize this a little bit, was this idea that solar and wind will be the largest source of electrical power in 2025. That's next year. And more than 50% by 2027, you say. And so I wonder, what surprised you in this discovery process after your extensive interviews and your research for this book? Because there must have been some things that just took you aback and took your breath away about this subject.
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There were. It's a little hard to encapsulate it. But one of the things that surprised me was the realization that we are spending time 1.3 trillion dollars a year now on energy in the United States every year and 79 percent, in other words almost four-fifths of all that energy comes from fossil fuel. That means that we're wasting an enormous amount of energy and money, because at least two-thirds of all that fossil fuel energy is wasted when it's turned into electricity, because of the laws of thermodynamics. Two-thirds of it roughly goes off as heat, and the other third is turned into electrical power. When we put fossil fuels like gasoline... or diesel into a car or a truck, the efficiency is even worse. Only about 20% of the chemical energy in the fuel actually drives the car. And that doesn't even include all the energy that's spent at the refinery or those big trucks that are used to drive the fuel to the gas station and then pump it into the ground. So as a society, we're wasting an enormous amount of energy and money because we're using the wrong technologies. And what's even worse and more ridiculous, we're subsidizing these multi-trillion dollar industries, coal and natural gas and the oil industry that don't need our subsidies. But we are actually subsidizing worse wildfires, worse droughts, worse hurricanes and storms and tornadoes. There's just no reason. why we are pouring hundreds of billions of dollars into subsidizing these mature industries. And then when there's a program to incentivize the development of clean, renewable energy, you hear lots of screams of protest, which are truly... absurd because the spending that's done on clean renewable energy pays itself back many times over. It's the greatest investment that human beings could make today. There have been studies by Mark Jacobson, and he's a professor at Stanford in atmospheric science. He's very well-respected and has made important scientific discoveries. cited by many, many distinguished scientists. And he has found that the cost of converting 145 countries to clean energy by 2050 would be on the order of about $62 trillion. But that would save us about $11 trillion a year by 2050 in our energy costs. So the payback period for this investment would be five to six years. And after that, your capital investment is basically paid for. And then you're enjoying free, in other words, fuel-free. sustainable energy that can be delivered by the wind and by the sun or by heat from the ground in terms of geothermal energy or the energy and falling water through hydropower so this is the way to go this is the way of the future along with and it's becoming the way of the present because 80 percent of all of our new power installations now are renewable solar and wind So we are moving in that direction, but we are not moving in the direction fast enough. And there are all kinds of horror stories that I could cite to prove it.
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Well, one of the things that you do cite is, well, that's a big number, $42 trillion. Is that what you said? This modernization?
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Actually, I said $62 trillion.
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$62 trillion. I missed that. Gosh. So, but a big number. I'll just... Can I... Yeah, please. Oh, yeah, please jump in.
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Put that into a context here.
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And touch on this, how the modernization helps us economically, because I think that's a way to look at the number slightly differently, because you do point that out in the book.
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Well, there's a study recently, this is the context, a recent study in Nature indicates that the global annual damages that are expected from climate disruption in 2050 are estimated to be 38 trillion dollars. That's nearly 20% of global GDP, and that will occur even if greenhouse gas emissions were drastically reduced. So we are looking at tremendous damages, and the investments that I'm talking about not only repay themselves several times over in the greatest investments that we could possibly be making economically and in terms of protecting human health and the environment, but they also help us avoid these enormous damages that climate change is inducing. For example… In 2023, in the U.S., we had 90, let me wait a minute. We had, I believe, 21 major billion-dollar-plus disasters. In the aggregate, it cost the economy $92 billion in climate-related damages. And this is not even talking about the cost of human life or the... This... the specifics of what's happening from floods or from wind storms or drought and so forth. And the recent heat wave in California has been extremely costly and damaging. Over the last 10 years, extreme heat has cost the state $7.7 billion and killed nearly... 460 people because heat deaths killed more people in the U.S. than any other weather disaster. So we've got to ramp up our renewable energy production. We need to make this very rapid transition to clean energy.
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Hey everybody, it's Paul. We will be right back with Dr. John Berger. But I mentioned our sponsor today, Diet Smoke. I ask you, are you looking for the perfect way to relax and unwind? Whether you want to replace alcohol, sleeping pills, or find a reliable, relaxing experience, Diet Smoke has got you covered. They make premium infused edibles that deliver right to your door in as little as 48 hours. Imagine sleeping better, waking up. refreshed and enjoying your nights without the anxiety of a dreaded hangover. This is exactly why diet smoke was created. Diet smoke understands that everyone has a unique, perfect gummy experience. Some people's microdose is another person's worst nightmare. That's why diet smoke is dedicated to making sure you get exactly what you're looking for. You know, as the host of the Not Old Better Show, I am. always looking for products that align with our mission of promoting well-being and enjoyment at every age. That's why I'm thrilled to share my experience with Diet Smoke Edibles. The gummies they offer, part of the Diet Smoke product line, offer just the right balance of happiness and relaxation, providing the perfect way to unwind after a long day. Not only do they help you feel great, but they also promote better sleep without any hangover effects. It is fantastic to just wake up the next morning without that. Each bite-sized gummy is crafted with care, delivering consistent quality and a delightful taste. Diet Smoke ensures you get all the benefits without any of the drawbacks. Give them a try and discover a delicious new way to feel great. With Diet Smoke, your happiness is guaranteed. If you don't love it, they'll replace it. Don't want a replacement? Okay, get your money back. Your happiness is their number one goal. They offer nationwide two-day delivery to ensure you get your products quickly no matter where you are. So how do you get these? Go to dietsmoke.com. All of this will be in our show notes today. And use the promo code NOB. You all know that one. NOB for 20% off your entire order plus a $50 welcome bundle completely free. That's dietsmoke.com. Promo code. NOB. Remember, www.dietsmoke.com, promo code NOB. Thanks, everybody. Our guest today is Dr. John Berger. John Berger has written the excellent, important, timely, very timely new book, Solving the Climate Crisis, Frontline Reports from the Race to Save the Earth. I will tell you, as much as I've enjoyed it, The book is getting great ratings online, Dr. Berger. I'm a former Californian. I'm a big fan of Jerry Brown, and Jerry Brown, the former governor of California, says that your book is a call to action and a roadmap to help us confront the climate crisis well worth reading. Those are some big, important words, and we have a big, important election in front of us. The two presidential candidates couldn't be further apart on this issue. So maybe talk to us a little bit politically about what we can do and maybe answer the question broadly. Why is there so much rhetoric around this subject of climate change? Are we just not understanding or are there some other factors at play that we don't quite grasp?
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I think that there are other factors that some people don't grasp. The fact is, and I document this actually in my book, Climate Myth. the campaign against climate science, which came out in 2013 or 2014. I'm not quite sure. The issue is that there's a multi... trillion dollar multinational industry that has behaved like an international criminal conspiracy and have misrepresented and hidden the risk of continuing to burn fossil fuels and produce them as fast as we possibly can and to continue expanding the production and investment in fossil fuels so that we now have an increasing rate of increase in atmospheric greenhouse gases. The only thing that the climate responds to in the short term is a concentration of climate-disturbing greenhouse gases. So if we pour more in or blast more in, we're going to have more warming. If we get more of those out of the atmosphere to the point where first we hit... zero net change in greenhouse gas and then gradually begin drawing down the burden of excess greenhouse gas, we will see climate respond to that concentration. So everything needs to be done. Everything possible needs to be done now through... policy. And I recommend in the book, I have 15 pages of policies that we ought to be pursuing. And some of them are very simple to understand and some are technologically oriented. But in simplest terms, we need a national climate action plan, which I call a national climate prosperity plan, because it will be the greatest investment that we can possibly make. It will save us. trillions of dollars as a nation. It will create millions of new jobs. It will save millions of human lives and species while also protecting public health and our democracy and the environment. In terms of how do we go about implementing that, I think first people really need to educate themselves. And I hope that I've contributed to that educational process and I've made these resources available. But we need to be impatient about pain, but committed to a long-term struggle to achieve it. We need to organize politically. First of all, we all need to vote and urge our friends and neighbors and family to vote. The current election may turn on turnout, and turnout could be the... pivotal factor that either results in the success of an administration that has declared climate change to be a hoax and has determined its energy policy is burn baby burn and produce as much fossil fuel as possible and denigrate all clean and sustainable renewable energy sources or on the other hand we have The Joe Biden legacy, which is to address climate change, I believe that we can do a great deal more than the Biden administration did. And there's an analysis in my book of what they did and how it could be greatly. made more effective. And I'm hopeful that if there is a Harris administration in the White House January 2025, that they will be receptive to a new agenda for a much bolder and swifter clean energy transition. I'm trying, by the way, to find support from the White House. the philanthropic community and also the business community to put on a national climate solutions i call it roadblock removal conference that could be held in early 2025 at a major university like stanford for example in which we would showcase new technologies for providing all of the energy services that the economy needs without resort to fossil fuels and in ways that are not only cost-effective, but are much, much more efficient than using fossil fuels, which I had alluded to the sort of intrinsic inefficiencies that are... inherent in fossil fuel combustion. So that brings us back to what an individual can do. And we need to contact our representatives and ask them to declare themselves on this critical issue of climate change. Tell us what they are going to do, and if it doesn't sound like it's enough, then withhold support and encourage them to be more forthcoming about it. And then hold representatives accountable, call their offices, go to their town hall meetings. And... join and support climate and environmental groups. We need to work in an organized way and campaign for strong, swift climate action. As Joe Hill once said, the labor organizer of, I guess, the late 19th century or early 20th century don't born organized. And we should never underestimate the power of the committed individual, as Eamon Hennessey said. So there's a lot that individuals can do, even though these are problems that transcend the scope of any individual's personal access.
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What are the other things that, and you make a reference to this just in your last answer, and I thank you for all of that. One of the things that I really took away from the book was some of these technological advancements that you talk about. Some are very promising, and I wonder if you'll touch on one or two of them. You refer to clean steel and green cement as just a couple, but you have a long list. So maybe tell us a little bit about those and their status and what we might gain from implementing such.
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Well, absolutely. So steelmaking and cement together in the aggregate probably produce 15% or so of the carbon dioxide, the major greenhouse gas of all of the industrial effluent. So it's a major portion of the emission of greenhouse gas globally. And steel has traditionally been made... with a blast furnace and a basic oxygen furnace. These are fired by coal, and then coke, which is derived from coal, is used to remove oxygen from the iron ore. And this is a very, very energy-intensive process that produces probably a ton and a half of carbon dioxide for every ton of steel that's made. And brilliantly, Boston Metal, located not far from Boston, not coincidentally, has a new method for producing steel. And essentially, iron ore is electrolyzed. In other words, it's heated up by electricity and it's decomposed so that pure molten iron runs off from these electrolysis. And that's done without any coal firing and without any combustion. It's a much simpler and fundamentally more elegant and more efficient process for making steel. So that's one way to reduce the footprint of the steel industry. It's expensive to build a blast furnace, and I'm sure that they last for decades, maybe not even approaching longer periods. And if a company has an investment in that kind of capital, they need some financing to make the transition to the more modern process, so they should be given... loans at preferential rates, and other inducements so that they make that transition as quickly as possible to overcome that first cost hurdle that often exists as a barrier to using a more modern, more efficient technology. It's kind of the sunk cost in the existing technology that works even if it's suboptimal. And in the case of cement... Cement is produced in a kiln, and chemical reactions in the kiln involve the breakdown of limestone and the release from limestone, which is calcium carbonate, into CO2 as a waste product. And that can be reduced in the kiln by chemically changing the composition. of the raw cement materials that are put into the kiln, and also by using other processes to produce cement. And finally, I didn't even mention that as an alternative to converting steel completely to an electrolysis process, the older technology can be fired with hydrogen, which can be produced renewably. instead of obtaining the heat from burning coal. And hydrogen can also be used to heat a cement kiln. Solar heat, solar industrial heat, can also play a part in these industrial processes to provide some of the heat needed without fossil fuel combustion. Moreover, what's extremely interesting is that when cement turns into concrete, it's combining with water and it's hardening to form this stone-like material. That material itself... can scavenge CO2 from the atmosphere, and depending upon the composition of the cement, it can actually sequester more CO2 than the CO2 that was engendered in its production. This is something which we know is chemically possible, but it's not industrially competitive right now. to realize its full potential, although there are low-carbon cements that are being produced. And I write about Solidia Technologies in Piscataway, New Jersey. I think they moved their headquarters, though, to San Antonio. And Solidia has a process that uses CO2 to cure cement into concrete. And it's... substituting CO2 for some of the water in the process, and thereby it's reducing the demand on water, which is substantial for the entire cement industry. And it's also sequestering or capturing the CO2 and locking it chemically into the concrete as it hardens, where it will remain bound up potentially for centuries or however long that... that concrete remains intact. So these are a couple of the very interesting and important... technological breakthroughs that are just examples of many others that have been occurring.
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Well, Dr. John Berger, I so appreciate your time today. I just know we want to have you come back. So selfishly, I'm going to just put you on the spot and just ask you to come back. And I wonder if you'll just maybe tease out for us what you might talk about, because you make reference to this National Climate Conference on the roadblock removal. You talked a little bit about the prosperity plan. What are your... What are your next steps going to be? What's your future look like in this area? And maybe what are appetites a little bit for kind of how that's going to be fulfilled and maybe your return visit to talk about those things with us?
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Okay, well, one thing we could certainly talk about would be the policies that I advocate to accelerate the clean energy transition. And in terms of my own personal trajectory, I would like to put together a television program that showcased these policies and their potential. And some of the people who are already using these technologies in order to eliminate or greatly reduce their greenhouse gas production. So that's one thing. In terms of something real simple that I think we ought to be doing is that... We ought to have a phase out of expansion of new fossil fuel and have a schedule for phasing out fossil fuel power plants for once. thing. We ought to have a non-proliferation treaty for fossil fuels so that we stop increasing the production of fossil fuels and that would act as a spur to accelerate the transition to cleaner energy technologies. But there are many, many policies we could talk about including how to finance the clean transition. So those are a couple of things that we might want to get into in a future conversation.
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Well, I look forward to that. Thank you, Dr. Berger, for just a great time together. All of what you have to say is so important. What an excellent subject, but what an excellent guest you are. And congrats on this wonderful book. My next task is be... going to be to reach out to you and get a date on the calendar that we can talk again, because I think this is going to be very important to all of us, especially right now. And you have this great phrase that you use, I think it's impatient about the change, but patient about the policy. Did I get that halfway correct?
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I think you practically got it. I think I was saying the imp... patients for change but committed to the longer-term struggle.
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Yes, yes. Very well said, Dr. Berger. Thank you so much for your time. Again, we're just going to share this widely. It's such an important topic, but Dr. Berger, congratulations, and please, please come back.
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My pleasure. It's been great talking with you, Paul, and thank you very much for all the good work that you are doing.
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Well, thank you very much. My thanks to our sponsor today, Diet Smoke, beautifully balanced cannabis. Please support our sponsors as they in turn support the show. Thanks to John Berger, his expertise, all his patience answering my questions, and his new book, Solving the Climate Crisis, Frontline Reports from the Race to Save the Earth. My thanks to you, my wonderful Not Old Better Show audience here on radio and podcast for the Science Interview Series. My thanks to executive producer Sam Hanegar for all his work on audio and making things run smoothly here on the show with me. Please be well, be safe, and let's talk about better. The Not Old Better Show science interview series on radio and podcast. Thanks, everybody. We will see you next week.
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Thanks for joining us this week on the Not Old Better Show. To find out more about all of today's stories or to view our extensive back catalog of previous shows, simply visit notoldbetter.com. Join us again next time as we deep dive into some of the most fascinating real-life stories from across the world. All focused on this wonderful experience of getting better, not old. Let's talk better, not old better.
