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Welcome to the Not Old Better Show, Smithsonian Associates interview series on radio and podcast. The show covering all things health, wellness, culture, and more. The show for all of us who aren't old, we're better. Each week, we'll interview superstars, experts, and ordinary people doing extraordinary things, all related to this wonderful experience of getting better, not just older. Now, here's your host, the award-winning Paul Vogelzang.
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Welcome to the Not All Better Show, Smithsonian Associates Interview Series. I'm Paul Vogelsang, and as always, it is an absolute pleasure to be with you today. We have a very special guest who's made a remarkable name for himself in the world of sports writing, Smithsonian Associate Joe Posnanski. Smithsonian Associate Joe Posnanski has a gift for capturing the essence of the sports we love, and today, he's here to talk... about his latest book, Why We Love Football History in 100 Moments. If you're a football fan, or even if you're not, this conversation will give you a fresh perspective on America's most beloved sport. Joe Posnasky will be appearing at Smithsonian Associates coming up, so please check out our website for more details and also at Smithsonian Associates website. Imagine the thrill of Joe Montana's epic touchdown pass to Dwight Clark in 1981. The tension as the ball soared through the air. the eruption of joy as Dwight Clark made the catch that would forever be etched into football history. As a longtime 49er faithful fan, I remember it well. Or think of the pure, improbable magic of Eli Manning's helmet catch that led the New York Giants to a stunning victory over the Patriots in the Super Bowl. These are the moments that make football more than just a game. They're part of our cultural fabric. But how do we choose the greatest moments in a sport so rich in history? That's the challenge Smithsonian associate Joe Posnanski has taken in his new book, and we'll be talking about that today with him. He doesn't just revisit these iconic plays, he digs deep into the stories behind them, uncovering what makes them so unforgettable, from legendary NFL showdowns to hidden gems in college football, and even the Canadian Football League. Joe's book is a celebration of the game. that brings us together generation after generation. So whether you're here for the nostalgia, the thrill of the game, or to learn something new about the sport, I promise you this conversation with Joe Posnanski will be as riveting as a last minute game winning Hail Mary touchdown pass. We're going to talk about some of those today, by the way. So sit back and relax. Let's dive into the heart of football history with one of the best sports writers of our time. Please join me in welcoming Smithsonian Associate Joe Posnanski. Joe Pesnadsky, welcome to the program. It's great to be here.
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Great to be on the show.
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It's so nice to talk to you. I am a big football fan. So many in our audience are. I love college football, but I especially loved your book, Why We Love Football, A History of 100 Moments. I'm looking forward to your upcoming Smithsonian Associates presentation, Joe, Joe Poe. And so let's just jump right in. Maybe tell us briefly about what you'll talk about. at Smithsonian Associates because you're going to be there in person. And we always love that. Maybe I'll be an ultimate fan and approach you for a signing. Is that some of the stuff you're going to be doing?
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I would hope so. I would definitely hope there'll be a big old signing afterward. I'm so excited about it. I mean, obviously being a huge fan of the Smithsonian in general and, you know, it's such a prestigious thing, but I'm particularly excited because this is an incredible panel of people that are going to be there. I mean. Paul Tagliabue, former commissioner of the NFL, is going to be there. Gerald Green, Hall of Fame defensive back, one of the fastest players to ever play in the NFL. Len Shapiro, a huge hero of mine, a great football writer. I mean, it's just an incredible panel that Phil put together, and I'm just really excited about it.
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Yeah, me too. I think it's going to be great. It'll be great to hear from you a little bit more about the book, Why We Love Football. Let's talk about that, because I really thought that the title... it jumped right out at me because I don't necessarily think of football in moments, but you have this really nice way of tying all that together. Maybe tell us about that, where the title came from and maybe just say, was there one moment that stood out? I mean, there are just so many, it's hard to kind of come. Yeah.
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Yeah. For me, this was a really interesting experience because my last two books have been baseball books and I, you know, I wrote the baseball 100 and my last book was why we love baseball. And I was really excited about writing a football book. And my original idea was I was going to count down the greatest players in football history the way I did with baseball. And as I was writing it, and, you know, I did write the full version of the book, it didn't feel quite right to me. You know, I think as a football fan, it's not that we don't love counting down the players and comparing and arguing about who is better. But football is so much a game of moments. It's so much a game of memories. You know, we remember great players, of course, but what we remember them doing is what matters. You know, it's like you remember John Riggins, but watching John Riggins blow through the line in the Super Bowl and tear all the way to the end zone and beat the Dolphins. That's what you remember, you know, more than almost anything else about John Riggins. And so that was so much fun. And also the idea that I could. Because if you're going to compare the greatest players ever, it's really hard to get college players in there and high school players. And this way I could write about all of it, you know, and I think that that it's so much fun to be able to write about not only, you know, John Riggins Super Bowl run and then jump right to the Mississippi Miracle or, you know, something. I mean, it's just it's such an incredible. thing to be able to bounce from one thing to another, from LSU to the Dolphins, to the Cowboys, to Texas. To me, that was what was so much fun about writing this book. And I think it's really, for a football fan of any kind, whether you're a big football fan, you just like college, you just like pros. I think that this book is just the way it carries you, hopefully, will just be so much fun.
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Yeah, it's excellent. I don't want to give too much away again. Our guest is Joe Posnanski. He's written a wonderful new book, Why We Love Football. And... Joe, I thought that one of those moments which you touch on, which is such a fan favorite of mine, you never, ever hear a college sports announcer mention a marching band without a reference to the play.
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Yeah. Honestly, the play was a very, very important moment for me. Yeah. Yeah. Not only because it's one of, if not the greatest moment in football history, but it really clarified for me what this book was going to be. Because as I say, when I first started writing it. it was these great players. So it was very, very NFL centric, which was great. I mean, I love the NFL and it was very fun to do, but then it's like, how can you write a book about why we love football without including the play? I mean, the play is like the ultimate example of why we love football, everything about the play, everything about the band, everything about the comeback, the announcing. I mean, it's just this magical moment. So it was really important to me because then I started thinking about, well, if I'm going to write about college plays, I'm writing about. kick six. I'm writing about the Alabama stand in the bowl game. I'm writing about this and this and this and this. And it's so, and then it's like, well, how does that compare with pro moments? And then you, there are high school moments in here too. And how do you compare those in there? And that to me is what I hope makes this book. I've mentioned how I think it's going to be fun, but also very different from, I think anything that people have read, because you've seen maybe lists of the greatest college football moments, the greatest pro football moments or whatever, but seeing them all together and bouncing from one to another is part of what. made this such a great experience to write.
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And it's a great experience to read it too. I really thought that the way you were able to kind of bridge eras together, because football's just changed so much and there's technology that's such a big part of it. The ball has changed size. We've got different safety equipment today. How did you come at that element, these different eras that really have changed the sport's long history?
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Absolutely. I mean, it was different than baseball in that way. I mean, I think that one of the great mythologies of baseball that we want to believe in is that baseball is the same, right? That baseball doesn't change, that Babe Ruth played the same game that Shohei Otani is playing today. Nobody believes that in football. Nobody believes that Sammy Ball is playing the same game that Patrick Mahomes is playing. But what's so great about it is in their eras and in their moments, you know, these moments are as great as ever. I mean, whether or not the 1958 Colts could play today's teams. with the size difference and all of the other advantages that athletes have today is not relevant to how great a moment that was, right? Like how great it was to see them play the Giants in the biggest game, greatest game ever played, as it was called. First game that really caught the entire country's attention on television. That moment is so wonderful. And you can write about that moment without making the same kind of compare. Like in baseball, I've got to be like, where does Trish Speaker rank compared to somebody today? And in football, I didn't have to do that because Sammy Baugh throwing for four touchdown passes in 1938 is unbelievably great moment. And it doesn't matter how it compares to Tom Brady. What matters is in the moment how great it was.
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You've got these moments today where the NFL, really just football period, is so much a part of our culture, pop culture, general culture. You think about hard knocks and all of just the sheer focus. on this game, but what are some of the lesser moments that you think probably deserve a little bit more attention in the book that you really are trying to highlight here? Well,
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it is a lot about history for me because people are not as up on their football history as they are, say, baseball. Baseball fans just idolize their history so much. But to me, getting to write about Gale Sayers or getting to write about Johnny Rogers or getting to write about the 1950s Colts or whatever it is, in a lot of ways, I mean, even though certainly very hardcore fans know all about these people, I'm sure there's every Nebraska fan still knows about Johnny Rogers, right? But... I think most people don't. Most football fans don't. And there are so many young football fans. And, you know, I'm not sitting there trying to tell them that the game was better than I'm just trying to tell them the game was great. Then, you know, it was it was so much fun. So I think that those are the moments. Of course, I loved writing about recent moments, ones that we talk about again and again and again that and have seen a million times on replay or whatever. because there are still wonderful things to say about those moments, you know, whether it's the helmet catch or whatever it is, there are still plenty of things to say about these moments. But I do think what hopefully will make this really a unique experience for people as readers is that they'll go from something they're like, oh, I remember that. That was really cool. To something they're like, I've never heard of this. I have no idea what this is, this, but that's also cool in its own way. So that was definitely the thought process I had as I was writing it.
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Hi, it's Paul. Do you love entertaining, informative, eclectic, insightful programs about culture, health, science, life, and everything Smithsonian? As part of our Smithsonian Associates interview series on radio and podcast, we're introducing you to the new Smithsonian Associates streaming series. Smithsonian, a non-profit organization, is excited to present this new aspect of their 55 years as the world's largest museum-based educational program. Join us from the comfort of your home as we periodically interview Smithsonian Associate Guest Speakers. Our audience here on radio and podcast can explore our website for more information, links, and details at notold-better.com. Thanks, everybody. Next, of course, is Joe Posnanski. He's written the wonderful new book. Can't recommend this enough, everybody. Why We Love Football, A History in 100 Moments. The book is on sale on the 17th.
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yes september yeah right one day before so actually the smithsonian event is not only am i super excited about it because it's a great event it's day two for me i'll be in new york on a day that that it launches and then right to washington for this my first big event it's really exciting that is it's going to be good to catch you right then i think the whole thing will really just be so wonderful if you want to find out more about joe please check out our show notes you can find out more about joe at smithsonian
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Associates website. We'll put links. You can find out about Joe blogs, mostly sports, but sometimes not. Lots of great things in there. We'll have links to all of this stuff. But Joe, just a couple more questions for you. I want to talk about comebacks because that I think is part of football like probably nothing else. We see these underdog victories and we just love them. Pats and Falcons, unbelievable story. Which comeback story do you think best captures this idea of a comeback in the spirit of football today? Oh,
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good question. There's so many great comebacks. I mean, there are a bunch of Easter eggs in this book, like little things. And one of those things is that there have been a lot of moments in football history that are called miracles, right? There's miracle at the Meadowlands and miracle at the Meadowlands too, and the Miami miracle, the Minneapolis miracle, the Minnesota miracle, this and that and the other. So I loved writing about them and people will notice that they're spread out throughout the book in a very specific way, both college and pro. moments. And of course, the miracles are comebacks, right? Some of them are just last second plays, but a lot of them are these remarkable comebacks from, like you mentioned, I mean, you're not going to get a bigger comeback than the Patriots coming back against the Falcons, right? My favorite moments in this book, and it was one that I knew I wanted to really include because it had such a huge impact on me as a kid when I was 14 or something, was when San Diego played Miami in the classic. playoff game and San Diego took a 24 nothing lead and people will remember, or they'll get to read about what happened next. But that one to me, because it was a comeback and then it was the other team coming back. And then it was this back and forth craziness. That to me is what football does that no other sport can do. Like no other sport can give you that. Because it does feel so hopeless, right? When you're down that many points, no sport will make you feel like in the NBA or whatever, you're down 20. You're like, okay, it's only the second quarter. I'm sure they'll come back. Football, you're down three touchdowns. You're like, game's over. And when you see your team actually come back, I don't think there's anything in sports that touches it.
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It's really such a unique sport too, because we just have a small number of games. Right. And so every single game means a lot. Every single game has just this immense amount of focus around it. And the fans, I think in particular, just get as excited as can be. Fan bases have changed over the years as teams have moved. But you look at some of these fan bases and the history of the game, and there have just been some wonderful combinations. I think of Green Bay. I think of the Buffalo Bills. I think of some of these franchises in Southern California who kind of had some franchises move around a little bit. but still they're rabid fans. That must have captured your attention too, that these fans really keep on...
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driving after these oh absolutely and the great thing is it is at all levels right i mean like there are no bigger fans than alabama fans right there are no bigger fans than ohio state fans or texas fans and then obviously you mentioned green bay i mean i'm going to be shortly after washington which obviously has had incredible fans i'll be in chicago where the fans are rabid i'll be in kansas city which is the craziest of anywhere and i'll be so it's like every place you go whether it's a college town or a pro town the fan bases are so intense. And there's like this great argument between Kansas City and Seattle, who's the loudest fan, right? And then there's this great rivalry between the Bears and the Packers and the Vikings and all of them want to own the central north of America, that cold weather world and obviously Cleveland and Pittsburgh and the rivalry there. So I think that fan bases in football, because they're so rabid, it creates all of these other wonderful things like rivalries. The rivalries in football. It's like European soccer rivalries. Like the closest we have to that, I think, are football rivalries, whether it's college, you know, Alabama, Auburn, Ohio State, Michigan, Texas, Oklahoma, whatever those are. And then pro rivalries. And some of it's geographic and some of it's not like the Washington-Dallas rivalry, which has just been more recently not as active, but used to be as rabid as anything in sports. They're not close to each other. It just happened to be good at the same time. Dallas claims this America's team thing. Washington obviously has every reason to believe they're America's team. So it's this wonderful thing that football has. And I think it is because of exactly what you said, which is this rabid fan base.
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Well, you mentioned Chicago. And of course, Chicago is the focus of this season's hard knocks. And I really have felt in watching it that I've really gotten to know Caleb Williams very well in this process. It's been eye-opening. I've been impressed with the man. I think he just has this enormous future. He's a leader. And so that technology, this ability to almost give us a real-time glimpse into kind of where the team stands and all of this has really, I think, changed the sport. But you talk about the first down marker as being a real technological change as well as replay. So maybe touch on those. And I don't know, are you watching Hard Knocks? Are you kind of enjoying that a little bit?
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I am watching it and I love it because, I mean... every year there's some something enjoyable about hard knocks you know even yeah they did cleveland where i grew up and and that was kind of a disastrous team and a disastrous season but it's so exciting in chicago because what caleb williams means i mean that is a franchise that has not had a truly great quarterback in many many decades maybe all the way back to sid luckman i mean it's it's been that long you So the hope that is instilled in him, and then you see him on hard knocks and see like, oh, you know what? This guy can be the real deal, even with all of the pressure on him. It's so exciting. But yeah, I think all of these bits of technology, the inside, the NFL has been the best in my view, going for fans, making the game exciting for fans, whether, you know, if they have to change rules, they'll change rules. You know, this year it's a completely new kickoff. They just changed it because they will not hold back in ways that. certainly baseball does and even other sports. But yeah, replay changed everything. I mean, one of the things that was very striking to me in writing this book is going back and seeing amazing, great plays that would not count if they were today, today's game, right? They would look at replay and they would not count. And so it's really changed, but it's also changed the way we watch sports. And that's not just football, but football was the leading light in this. It used to be you scored a touchdown, you cheered. And now you score a touchdown and you like, wait, okay, well, it's going to count, you know, I mean, let's, let's see the replay, make sure he got both feet about, make sure the ball, you know, all of those things. So it's very much changed. And some of it for the better, some of it, maybe not, you know, depending on people's point of view, but what football has done, the NFL in particular, and college football is trying to do that now is stay with the times in a way that I think no other sport does.
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Well, let's talk about Cleveland. Can't let you go without just a touch on that because that's such a wonderful football community.
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Yeah.
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Was there a moment from the Browns history that you just felt like, oh, I got to include this in the book, even though maybe wasn't the most famous of kind of some of the moments that you touched on?
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Well, my problem was there were moments about Cleveland's history that I didn't want to include in the book because they were just so crushing to my spirit. I will not go into any more detail about that to say that. By far, the shortest chapter of the book is a Cleveland Browns moment. By far the shortest chapter of the book. Yeah, I mean, certainly for me, I don't think necessarily that I included any Cleveland moments that wouldn't necessarily, you know, if I wasn't a Browns fan, if I didn't grow up in Cleveland, I think I would have included pretty much all the moments from Cleveland history that I included. I can't think of one. Maybe there's one that I would not have included, but almost all of them. But it's also a very personal book for me, right? So I, you know, I'm a Browns fan. fan. I grew up in Cleveland. I'm an Ohio guy. So part of it is for me to be a fan as I'm writing a book like this, which is fun. So I can write about somebody else's moment and write about it a little bit from the perspective of either jealousy or a sense of like, oh man, that really was not a great moment for me. That was a great moment for football. It was a great moment for them, but that wasn't a great moment for me. So yeah, I think that's such a big part too. I think heartbreak is... very much at the essence of being a football fan. I mean, there's only one winner and the rest of us are in pain at some point. And that's a huge part of the sport.
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Yeah. Well, the book is wonderful. Why We Love Football, A History in 100 Moments on sale the 17th of September. Joe Posnanski has been our guest. He will be at Smithsonian Associates the next day, the 18th. Yes. We'll look forward to seeing you there too. So just maybe one final. question, Joe, maybe wrap up a little bit by telling us about the upcoming season. What are you looking forward to? And maybe foreshadow a moment that you think might kind of yeah, maybe give us a sense as to like that,
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figure out what kind of moment could be. I mean, you've already brought it up, but I am very, very excited about the Bears this year. I just kind of, you know, that was That was a pretty good team other than the quarterback situation. I mean, they seemed in pretty decent shape to be pretty good defensively, and they have some weapons on offense. I mean, he could change everything. Kind of the way Patrick Mahomes did in Kansas City, right? I don't know that he's going to be Patrick Mahomes or anything close, but he could change the dynamic there in a gigantic way, and I would love that. I love Chicago. I love Bears fans. They've suffered enough. I would love to see some success there. I'm watching, I think, what everybody's sort of watching. What's Aaron Rodgers going to do with the Jets? Obviously, how are the Chiefs going to do? You know, I was in Kansas City for 15 years. My family are all Chiefs fans. I've got to keep an eye on them and, you know, sort of see. Because they are a little bit different. They've tried to add some weapons. I mean, last year... It's kind of miraculous that they won the Super Bowl last year with the lack of weapons they had on offense, other than Patrick Mahomes and Travis Kelsey. So it's going to be very interesting to see what they do. There are quite a few teams. I get a sense that things are shifting a little bit in the NFL. I get a sense that some new guys are going to just be huge impact players this year. I mean, starting with Caleb Mitchell, but there are others as well. And that's going to be very interesting to see. And then, of course, I'm watching. to see what the Browns are going to do. Although I don't have particularly high expectations, but as a lifelong fan, there's not a lot you can do except for sort of watch and see what's going to happen.
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Well, we have so enjoyed talking to you. Of course, Joe Ponanski is our guest, Smithsonian associate, why we love football history in a hundred moments. We'll put links up so that everybody can find out more information about Joe Ponanski. But Joe, thanks. We'll look forward to. your visit at Smithsonian Associates and then hearing from you more on Joe Vlogs over the course of the season. But thank you so much for joining us for your generous time and congrats on the book. It's just wonderful.
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Oh, thank you so much. I can't wait. And I can't wait to see you in Washington.
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Yeah. See you then. My thanks to author and Smithsonian associate Joe Posnanski for his generous time today. Joe Posnanski will be appearing at Smithsonian Associates coming up. So please. Check out our website for more details and also find out more at the Smithsonian Associates website. My thanks to the Smithsonian team for all they do to support the show. My thanks to Sam Hanniger, executive producer, for his help in making today's show the high quality program it always is. Thanks, Sam. And of course, my thanks to you, my wonderful audience here on the Not All Better Show, Smithsonian Associates interview series on radio and podcast. Be well, be safe, and let's talk about better than not. old better show. Thanks, everybody. We will see you next week.
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Thanks for joining us this week on the Not Old Better Show, Smithsonian Associates interview series on radio and podcast. To find out more about all of today's stories, or to view our extensive back catalog of previous shows, simply visit notold-better.com. Join us again next time as we deep dive into some of the most fascinating real-life stories from across the world, all focused on this wonderful experience of getting better, not just older. Let's talk about better. The Not Old Better Show.
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Hi, one final thing. Please check out our website for this episode and all episodes at notold-better.com or subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts. And be sure to check out your local radio stations to find out more about The Not Old Better Show on podcast and radio. You can find us all over social media. Our Twitter feed is notoldbetter and we're on Instagram at notoldbetter2. The Not Old Better Show is a production of NOBS Studios. I'm Paul Vogelsang. And I hope you'll join me again next time to talk about better. The Not Old Better Show. Thanks, everybody. We'll see you next week.
