- Speaker #0
Welcome to the Not Old Better Show, Smithsonian Associates'interview series on radio and podcast. The show covering all things health, wellness, culture, and more. The show for all of us who aren't old, we're better. Each week, we'll interview superstars, experts, and ordinary people doing extraordinary things, all related to this wonderful experience of getting better, not just older. Now, here's your host, the award-winning Paul Vogelzang.
- Speaker #1
Welcome to the Not Old Better Show on radio and podcast. I'm your host, Paul Vogelzang, and today we're turning back the clock to the summer of 1965, a time when music wasn't just entertainment, it was a revolution. A single song hit the airwaves on July 24th, so just about a month ago, but many, many years ago of the year 1965, and it changed everything. That song, of course, is Bob Dylan's Like a Rolling Stone. Whether you remember hearing it for the first time or are discovering it, today for the first time, there's no denying its power and influence. To help us dive into the groundbreaking moment in music history, we have a very special returning guest, Scott Shea. Scott is a leading music historian. He's author of the best-selling book, All the Leaves Are Brown, How the Mamas and the Papas Came Together and Broke Apart. He's here to share his insights on how like a rolling stone shattered conventions pushed boundaries and paved the way for the folk rock movement in america we'll explore how the six minute masterpiece by dylan managed to captivate a nation and why its impact still resonates nearly 60 years later we'll be playing it throughout the show and i know you'll just love this song and go away singing it as i always do scott of course, brings a wealth of knowledge, not only as an author, but also as a longtime radio producer currently working on Sirius XM's Seize the Day with Gus Lloyd. Scott's expertise will give us a unique perspective on why Like a Rolling Stone was more than just a song. It was a cultural moment. So sit back and relax. Let's take a trip down memory lane to the time when Bob Dylan turned the music world on its head. Welcome Scott Shea back to the program. Scott Shea, so good to talk to you. Happy summer. Great to connect again with you.
- Speaker #2
Hey, thanks for having me back, man. I really appreciate it. It's great.
- Speaker #1
Oh, gosh. I love it too. You know, we talked about your book, about the Mamas and the Papas. Fantastic subject. All the leaves are brown. Such a hit with our audience. It's so nice to talk to you again. We're going to talk today about Bob Dylan's music a little bit more specifically about Like a Rolling Stone, one of my favorite all-time songs. So many. love that song too. And I, you know, we all have our stories about Dylan's music where we heard it. What inspired you about Dylan's music? And then maybe talk a little bit about Dylan and just this big impact that he has had on folk rock in particular.
- Speaker #2
I've been doing music for a really long time, really. I mean, probably not when I was a really little kid, but when I got into my teenage years, he's definitely an acquired taste for a lot of people. And I was certainly one growing up, but my mid to late teenage years. When I kind of opened my mind up to the full sounds of, you know, not only 60s music, but 70s and beyond, I gravitated to this period of Bob Dylan, which like The Rolling Stone was in, which would be the mid 60s, 65 and 66. And because it sounded similar to The Beatles and The Stones and The Birds, I really enjoyed. And a lot of the cutting advance of that period. So the Mamas and the Papas, I couldn't write their story without writing about Bob Dylan a little bit because, you know, it was part of that folk rock. phrase and they were all ex-folk musicians you know and they were in greenwich village with him at the time you know he was kind of a french of greenwich village so i'm sure they were all mixed feelings they probably were in all of him at times they probably were jealous they probably hated him they probably thought he was overrated you know like all those things that go on when you're in that scene but ultimately we're just like really impressed with and followed him into this folk rock spectrum and john phillips the mamas and the papas and guys like John Sebastian, who was friends with Bob and David Crosby, anybody from that period were drawn to him. And I was as well. And that music, not that I'm up there with them, but as I got into music, I just really loved the folk stuff that came before that. I've learned to enjoy it and appreciate it more now, but it wasn't my first thing with Bob. It was really the full sound of the rock and roll band behind him that caught my ear and I would say millions of others.
- Speaker #1
And like a Rolling Stone was really his, he really made a big. turned there from folk to rock. You know, he played electric guitar. He really did some interesting things with that organ. Al Cooper, I think, played the organ there. It's such a groundbreaking song. And here we are almost at 60 years. It's almost 60 years old. So I'm 68. I do remember this really so well. I got to tell you that question, how does it feel? I always remember that in that song. It just resonated. Same with you?
- Speaker #2
Oh, yeah, for sure. I mean, yeah. It's such an open-ended question. Yeah. How does it feel to what? But you see, you know, that song is just loaded with all different types of emotions, like scathing sarcasm and bitter irony and all these things, you know, that I think really attracted that era, that growing counterculture movement from the mid-60s that really, you know, had its roots in the 50s, really kind of like with the beatnik period. But I think it was bubbling under the surface. And this, I really think, brought it to the fore. It absolutely helped it bring it to the fore, not by itself, but the... ethnic refugees and the really the underground hippie movement that was really kind of focused on the west coast but through this and other things development of the sophistication of the beatles songwriting and the rolling stones i think just brought it full force because you have a combination of that small group with the millions of teenagers and young adults who are just listening to the radio and just try to enjoy music and then they hear this song which has the eddie lyric That open-ended question that we just talked about, and with a nice beat to it and some good music that you can dance to. So it helped bring it to the mainstream, I should say.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, it was an open-ended question. And then the other line that just jumps out to me is, and this is a really positive line, as far as I'm concerned, when you ain't got nothing, you got nothing to lose. And I think that's a line. that is from a song that is about perseverance and hanging in there. And I think that's always good for us to think about. And these challenging times, it's good to remember that sometimes just losing everything, putting it all behind you allows you to focus a little bit on the future.
- Speaker #2
Yeah, especially when you're young. You know, you really don't have anything to lose. You know, that's when you need to try things. And for me, I mean, good things like, you know, trying a different career path or a different relationship or a different direction. kind of like right there with no direct in home you know so another one of the profound dylan lyric and you know it's funny because you know i've seen interviews with him and they always asked him like where did these lyrics come from and he's just like i don't know like you know i don't even remember writing you know so it's it I don't know how that feels because I look back at my book and I was like, I don't remember writing that. But it came from somewhere. I think you get into that zone and you're just trying to make things sound good and make a rhyme or just finish the sentence. And you pull things and some of them are inspired and some of them aren't.
- Speaker #1
Scott Shea, absolutely. The Mamas and the Papas book, All the Leaves are Brown is inspired. That's wonderful. You pulled that off absolutely and just brilliantly. Of course, again, Scott Shea is our guest today. We're talking about Like a Rolling Stone by Bob. Dylan, I've read, Scotch, that you talk a little bit about Like a Rolling Stone and you describe it as being almost a response to the British invasion. Tell us a little bit about that and who Dylan was contemporaries with and how their music shaped some of the folk rock music and how he participated in that because it was a real interesting time there for music.
- Speaker #2
Yeah, well, you know, in the wake of the British invasion, American artists were really taking a beating. We wiped out just about everybody who came before it, except for maybe Elvis. Well, definitely Elvis and maybe a couple others like Chuck Berry and Sam Cooke. And there's probably more than that. But I think the best of the next generation of American rock and roll singers were folk singers involved in the folk movement in Greenwich Village. And there was one in Chicago and in San Francisco. And I think when the Beatles arrived, it rekindled their love for rock and roll. You remember that time of Elvis and Jerry Lee Lewis and Chuck Berry, where it just kind of was revolutionary. And it. got them excited and scared their parents to death, you know. But with the British invasion, fickle record label executives, they just weren't interested in even letting you in the door if you didn't have a British accent. And many of them will talk about that. And I think Columbia Records was the first to really take a chance with the Byrds. Of course, the Byrds really looked British, their haircuts and everything, and the glasses and the rickenbacker. They released that cover of Mr. Tambourine Man. And it was really the first response to that onslaught. which came after the Beatles because you had like the Dave Clark Five and Jerry and the Pacemakers and the Searchers, even the Rolling Stones. And then Dylan came along right there with like the Rolling Stones after that. And you had Love and Spoonful with Do You Believe in Magic and then Barry McGuire, Eve of Destruction. And here comes the Mamas and the Papas with California Dreaming. So the next thing you know, you have a sound and a movement that matches the energy of the British invasion. And it's got its own unique sound. Artists in no way affiliated with that movement, like Sonny and Cher. penny lopez are putting out like folk rock sounding songs i think dylan like those people i mentioned john phillips john sebastian yeah zalianoski barry mcguire you know they all roamed in those same folk circles folk music it was arranged differently there was different tuning there were different chord progressions and stuff like that and it lent itself to rock and roll in just a beautiful way that you know the british they didn't have that you know then they might have had it a little bit you know donovan But even McDonald was probably influenced by the folk rock group, probably more so than British folk music, at least at that period of time. Then you have the Beatles. They're putting out Elf and Rubber Soul. And they're starting to incorporate these folk rock sounds into songs like If I Needed Someone and Nowhere Man and things like that. The way I describe it, it's like if you want to compare it to the original British invasion from the Revolutionary War, this was kind of like the Battle of Saratoga, which was like the first thing. Yeah, the first American victory. Right. So that was kind of my point with that.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, that's really true. You just mentioned all those names too. John Sebastian, Lovin'Spoonful, of course, Paul Revere and the Raiders. All of these great, great sounds. Dylan had a different sound. His vocal style was not that crisp, clear. You think of Leonard McCartney, you think of John Sebastian, you think of all those singers. And they really had, and the folk singers too. I'm thinking of some of those really well-known folk bands at the time. they all had these beautiful folk train voices and Dylan did not. You think that separated him too? He really wasn't kind of the archetype there. He was really alone.
- Speaker #2
Yeah. I mean, he could, he could hold a note, but he had limited range. He was a teenager in that first wave of rock and roll, the first generation with Elvis and Bill Haley and all them. And I think he was. less afraid than others to bring in kind of that rock and roll spirit into the music from that first generation because even in those early years best singers had great voices like Elvis and Roy Orbison and then you had guys who had they may have not been as great a singer as Elvis and Roy Orbison but they had pleasant sounds like Ricky Nelson and Chuck Berry and Bob Dylan was really none of those I think he surrounded himself with some great or I should say Columbia Records surrounded himself with some great producers that really were able to work with that. And I think he was able to really kind of maybe the first artist to bring that rock and roll attitude into rock and roll, you know, because you still had the old guard where, oh, you have to be a good singer. And Bob, he really wasn't, but he made up for it with his songwriting. And I think that was kind of deliberate because Bob Dylan is a very deliberate kind of guy and his songs were so strong. And I think he knew it. And like I said, it became an acquired taste, but it was something that it's like coffee or beer that once you. really get into it you can really get into it and really enjoy it his voice is constantly changed or i should say has in the late 60s he became a bit more of a crooner with like lay lady lay and then a bit of a more natural style in the 70s and in the 80s and 90s and even up to now it sounds like he's got a clear throat all the time yeah so i think the way the beatles inspired of folk musicians to go electric i think dylan made singers at least in the second generation the rock and roll and beyond understand that you didn't have to have a five-octave vocal range to be the lead singer of a band.
- Speaker #1
Well said. Hi, it's Paul. Do you love entertaining, informative, eclectic, insightful programs about culture, health, science, life, and everything Smithsonian? As part of our Smithsonian Associates interview series on radio and podcast, we're introducing you to the new Smithsonian Associates streaming series. Smithsonian, a nonprofit organization, is excited to present this new aspect. of their 55 years as the world's largest museum-based educational program. Join us from the comfort of your home as we periodically interview Smithsonian Associate Guest Speakers. Our audience here on radio and podcast can explore our website for more information, links, and details at notold-better.com. Thanks, everybody. Scott, Shay, it's always so great to talk to you. I want to talk for a second about the social impact because you mentioned Dylan's... sense about himself, his voice, his music. Certainly there is a cultural and a social impact that occurred in those times with the 60s. That's not faded away. Dylan's music is still very much in vogue, documentaries about him. He just sold his catalog. I always applaud artists that are able to really monetize against their work. And Dylan is still very much with us. And so I that social theme hasn't disappeared.
- Speaker #2
And it came booping in. Back when he first came on the scene, it was supposed to revolution was really taking place. And you saw it in film and in writing and poetry. But I think music is probably the most influential form of art. And I think it still is. And like a Rolling Stone, as we said, had these really heavy lyrics filled with all these metaphors. And like I said, these ironies and bathing sarcasm. And I think it really appealed to a lot of people. It brought all those things together and fueled the movement for better or for worse. I mean, I think it played a part. in the hippie era. I think it made people less afraid. He really kind of helped bring it, and I'm sure Dylan would glance if I said this, but if he ever heard me saying it, but he brought it to the people. Like, he didn't have to be the greatest at that. That's a good way to say it,
- Speaker #1
yeah.
- Speaker #2
He's maybe the greatest songwriter, but he's not the greatest singer. But I think also more importantly, it brought in that era of long jams and long songs, and Dylan was really part of that. And you even saw it on the Pop-Tarts, I mean, a couple years later. you got mccarthy park and hey dude one by richard harris the other by the beatles and they're both over seven minutes long and then 1971 american pie nearly a nine minute song now all of those went to number one so yeah and you still see and and like you said that hasn't changed people i think by the 1980s the average up hit was four minutes and 20 seconds long when back when when dylan was coming up it had to be less than three minutes You know, because the radio, you're thinking about the radio program. So we got to have a two minute song because we got to squeeze in as many songs as we can in an hour and as many advertisements. For a little while, it's just the needs of radio programmers and advertising industry. They all sighed, said, no, we're doing art for art, at least for a little while. And, you know, remnants of that have stayed, but a lot of that has come back. So, yeah, I think that's part of the enduring legacy of that song and his work.
- Speaker #1
And some of the initial reactions, I mean, you talk a little bit about the length of the song. It. There was some reaction to that. What were some of the other critical reactions to the song? What did some of the industry professionals have to say about Like a Rolling Stone? Because some of it was less than pleasing. There wasn't a bunch of praise initially.
- Speaker #2
Yeah, well, you know, I think if you hated rock and roll back in those days, this probably just added fuel to the fire.
- Speaker #1
It's right.
- Speaker #2
You know, I think it started really almost from the beginning because I think Dylan and his producer Tom Wilson and even Columbia Records had a lot of faith in that song. going into the recording session but when they came out take four was the best take they had and that's the version we know now with some minor overdubbing done later the six minutes and nine seconds so they didn't really know what to do so this young guy named sean constantine who was the release coordinator at columbia records he found a discarded backstate of it in the trash can and he took it to this discotheque called which is in midtown manhattan it was run by richard burton's ex-wife civil and he had the dj there play it It's an acetate, so you can only get like five or six plays out of it before it completely deteriorates. And the response was overwhelming. And it's a club loaded with celebrities. So there's a couple like top 40 AM DJs. I don't know who they were. I mean, maybe like Dan Ingram or Harry Harrison or somebody sitting there. And they heard it and they loved it. The next day, they're calling Columbia Records asking for a stereo single. So that got Columbia back into, oh, OK, well, let's stretch this as it is. The second was in early to mid-June. The single came out in June 28th, so this is within a couple of weeks. And next thing you know, it's still I-24. It's hitting 91 on the, which we're talking about today. It's number 91 on the Billboard Top 100, and within a matter of weeks, it's at number two. I think that success speaks for itself for the reaction. The sales are always the good reaction, especially with a song. But I think over time, it's had a long-term... reacts into it is the most important thing like bruce springsteen talks about hearing that song for the first time riding with his mom in the car hearing it on wmca out of new york and just being blown away and how it would go on to influence the songwriting when he started taking that up a couple years you know paul rothschild who was the doors producer in the late 60s and early 70s he was a young producer of electric records he hears that and he's an ex-folk musician and he hears that and he knew all about dylan and he's like wow somebody like bob can make a song like this i can do that too so it changed his direction and it influenced so many people dan morrison neil young frank zappa even elvis costello talks about how important that song was to him when he first heard it so i think the immediate reaction big hit columbia didn't believe in it they got some research they put it out hits number two and then it just becomes different like we look it's 2024 and you and i are doing that yeah a half hour segment dedicated to it.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, it's wonderful. It really was a generational song. What do you think would have happened to Dylan if in his career, particularly, if Like a Rolling Stone hadn't been the success that it was? Do you think he still would figure in this pantheon, this real influential figure that he is today? You think that still would have occurred? I mean, he's written some amazing music.
- Speaker #2
Well, it's hard to say. I mean, because if that didn't happen, what would have happened after that? Would the world have dropped him?
- Speaker #1
He almost quit singing. after that return from England, right? Just kind of on the eve of recording this song?
- Speaker #2
Yeah, I mean, he was under a lot of pressure just from the folk community. I mean, the folk music community, and that was far from mainstream. He's trying to get into the world of pop music, and that's where the pressure's 10 times greater. Many times in his career, he's thought about just hanging it up, but that was probably the first time I know he wanted to just retire. And I think he'd already done enough at that point to be considered legendary. But it may have been relegated to really just kind of being like a folk legend like Pete Seeger or Woody Guthrie, not to diminish those guys because they're incredible, but they're kind of pigeonholed in folk music and they're not necessarily mainstream. I don't think your average person would know a Pete Seeger song or could name one, but they could name a Dylan song, you know. Or he might have just gone on to be considered a great writer of other people's hits, kind of like Jimmy Webb or P.S. Sloan, these guys that a lot in the country music field that just wrote. Songs for others, and we're just happy doing that. Maybe occasionally they put out another album. I don't think there's any doubt he would have been influential, but probably would have been a much more niche.
- Speaker #1
Well, Scott Shea, thanks for being so generous, and I've just enjoyed talking to you about Like a Rolling Stone. Our listeners, our 60-plus age audience, all of whom are familiar with Dylan's work, what's kind of your ranking of some of these songs beneath Like a Rolling Stone that we should really still be paying attention to and maybe pull out, dust off, listen to a little bit, and really get an understanding of who Dylan was and the impact? that he's really played.
- Speaker #2
He can't go wrong with a greatest hit.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, absolutely.
- Speaker #2
If you're like me, I've never been a greatest hit guy. I kind of like to get to the meat of the thing. And if you really like Rolling Stone, I'd recommend that trifecta of his mid-60s electric albums, because not only are the songs and their arrangements enjoyable, but it's kind of interesting to listen to that progression. Like a Rolling Stone, it's on the Highway 61 Revisited album from 65, which is the middle LP. But the first of those albums, Bringing It All Back Home, it's a little bit more mild. One half of the album is all acoustic. It's very reminiscent of his folk albums before that, but it's got some incredible new stuff on there, like Misty Tambourine Man. It's all over now, Baby Blue. And It's Alright Mom, I'm Always Green. But the other half is his electric debut, and it's got some incredible stuff on it. I love Blonde on Blonde and that came out in 66. That was a follow-up to the Highway 61 album. It's the last of the three series there of those mid-60s rock albums. It's grandiose. It's a double album. It's all electric. Really some over-the-top things in there like penny whistles and trumpets and Bob really stretches out the syllables, you know, but it is power-packed. And it's got songs like Just Like a Woman, I Want You, Stuck Inside a Mobile with the Memphis Blues again. You know, also, if you really like laid back, the dust settling from all that period. I really like the National Skyline album from 1969, which has Lay Lady Lay on it. And even the John Wesley Harding album before that. Yes. Anything, you know, I really like Bob up until about the mid 70s. I love him after that. But there's an inevitable drop off that every artist, every legend has. But there's always good stuff that you can glean from.
- Speaker #1
Scott Shea, thanks for joining us today. I always enjoy talking to you. I always learn so much. I know our audience does, but you've helped us mark this anniversary of Like a Rolling Stone. What a great time. What a great song. I always say this to you. You've been on the program before and talked to us about the Mamas and the Papas and your book, All the Leaves are Brown, which is excellent. Everybody check that book out. But Scott, thanks for joining us today. Please come back. I would love to talk to you again. Always love hearing your take on all this music.
- Speaker #2
Absolutely. And if people want to learn a little bit more, they can go to my website, scottkawthor.com. That's S-A-T-E-A. I've got the link to all my socials there so you can follow me and see what I'm up to.
- Speaker #1
We'll put links in our notes today so that you can find out more about Scott and his work, his wonderful book about the Mamas and the Papas, his work titled All the Leaves Are Brown. Thanks, Scott, for joining us today. And we'll be talking to you soon, but have a great rest of your day.
- Speaker #2
You too, Paul. You too.
- Speaker #1
My thanks to Scott Shea for all his work and expertise. You'll find out more about Scott on our website via the links in the show notes today. But I love to talk to Scott because he's a preserver and lover of vintage music from the 1940s through the 1990s. Scott will join us again soon. My thanks to the Smithsonian team for all they do to support the show. My thanks to you, our wonderful audience here on radio and podcast. Also, I want to thank Sam Henniger, our executive producer, Miranda Henniger, our team admin, who we thank profusely for helping us stay on task. Please be well, all of you. Be safe. Let's talk about better. The Not Old Better Show, Smithsonian Associates interview series on radio and podcast. Thanks, everybody. We will see you next week.
- Speaker #0
Thanks for joining us this week on the Not Old Better Show, Smithsonian Associates interview series on radio and podcast. To find out more about all of today's stories or to view our extensive back catalog of previous shows, simply visit notold-better.com. Join us again next time as we deep dive into some of the most fascinating real-life stories from across the world, all focused on this wonderful experience of getting better, not just older. Let's talk about better. The Not Old Better Show.
- Speaker #1
Hi, one final thing. Please check out our website for this episode and all episodes at notold.com. better.com or subscribe to the podcast on Apple podcast, and be sure to check out your local radio stations to find out more about the not old, better show on podcast and radio. You can find us all over social media. Our Twitter feed is not old, better, and we're on Instagram at not old, better to the not old, better show is a production of NOBS studios. I'm Paul Vogelsang, and I hope you'll join me again next time to talk about better the not old, better show. Thanks everybody. We'll see you next week.
