Navigating Anxiety and Trauma: Effective Strategies for Healing and Building Healthy Relationships in Life | The Zhen Podcast

Description

Have you ever felt like you’re constantly on guard, trapped in a cycle of anxiety that never seems to let go? You’re not alone. In this enlightening episode of The Zhen Podcast, host Zhen engages in a profound conversation with Sara Sanford, a certified trauma professional with over 20 years of experience helping trauma survivors reclaim their lives. Together, they delve into the intricate relationship between trauma and the nervous system, revealing how our bodies react to stress and anxiety, often leaving us in a state of hyper-vigilance.

Sara Sanford is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker and trauma-focused psychotherapist based in San Francisco, with more than 20 years of experience supporting survivors of intimate partner violence, post-traumatic stress, and significant life transitions. She began her career as a Domestic Violence Victim Advocate before becoming a psychotherapist and holds an advanced certification in Complex Trauma (CCTP-II), with specialized training in Polyvagal-Informed Trauma Therapy and the Gottman Method for Couples. Her depth-oriented, body-based approach integrates somatic techniques, Internal Family Systems (IFS), DBT skills, Mindfulness-Based CBT, and attachment-focused therapy. Sara is also certified in the Safe and Sound Protocol (SSP), a therapeutic listening intervention that supports nervous system regulation and a greater sense of safety. She brings both extensive clinical expertise and her own lived experience as a trauma survivor to her work. Sara provides LGBTQIA+- and ENM-affirming therapy for teens, adults, and couples, offering in-person sessions at Prana Holistic Healing Center in San Francisco's Castro neighborhood and telehealth throughout California. She also provides trauma-informed education and training to professionals and organizations.

Connect with Sara: sarasanfordtherapy.com · (415) 870-6494 · Free 20-minute consultation: saralcsw.clientsecure.me

Sara breaks down the autonomic nervous system, explaining the differences between the sympathetic (fight or flight) and parasympathetic (rest and digest) systems, and how these responses shape our mental health. This episode is packed with effective strategies for managing anxiety, including body scans, mindfulness practices, and somatic work that complements traditional talk therapy. Discover how to cultivate emotional intelligence and enhance your self-care routine as Sara emphasizes the power of co-regulation through human connection, especially for those navigating toxic relationships or recovering from narcissistic abuse.

Healing is not linear, and Sara encourages listeners to embrace self-compassion and recognize their inherent worth on this journey. Whether you’re dealing with high functioning anxiety, complex PTSD, or simply seeking personal growth, this episode offers insights that resonate deeply with anyone striving for wellness and happiness.

Join us as we explore the nuances of trauma healing, relationship anxiety, and the vital role of mindfulness in overcoming self-sabotage and imposter syndrome.

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Transcription

Speaker #0
Trigger warning, this episode includes discussions of trauma, alcohol, substance abuse, addiction, and suicide. Listener discretion is advised.
Speaker #1
It takes on average seven attempts for someone to leave an abusive relationship. And so working, for example, in a shelter environment where people would come when they needed a confidential safe space from physical violence. is that we would have clients that we would feel that, okay, we see them, they're safe, we're offering all of these amazing support, therapy and options and child care and help with finding housing and a job, and they would return right back and return right back.
Speaker #0
Welcome back to the show, everybody. Today, we have Sarah Semford. who has worked with trauma survivors for 20 years. She is a certified trauma professional who advocates, focuses on anxiety, relationship recovery, and different types of traumas. This is for people who feel anxious when everything seems completely fine, who always think something bad is going to happen, and who are trying to rebuild a life with the past and feel like they're always taking back to where they were before. So I personally sometimes experience hypervigilance and I feel like my body has always been breezed and not feeling that I can relax. So today I'm sitting down with Sarah to figure it out why we're always on guard and how to feel safe again. So welcome Sarah to the show.
Speaker #1
Well, thank you so much. I appreciate you. bringing me onto your show as well as for, you know, talking about mental health because I think that's how we get rid of stigma. So I'd love to talk a little bit about the nervous system and explain sort of the why behind your question. But if you don't mind, if you can explain a little bit for me about where you feel tense or how it feels in your body when you feel on guard.
Speaker #0
I will say it's been such a habit to feel you tense for decades. I would say I grab my teeth at night. Even when I go to sleep, my body does not relax. And then the next day I just feel exhausted, not be able to rest well. Day to day, I would say I over consume caffeine. So it's almost like I am living on adrenaline and I needed more caffeine to feel this level of rushing. Like I like to rush, like I'm not really living. a life. I'm not like, it's really rare that I sit down and read for pleasure. I'm always like trying to get from A to B. And I think the last one is I do feel I am always worried about something. And recently I discovered I care and love for myself by gaslighting myself.
Speaker #1
With the way you're describing that, I think really fits perfectly into you. You know, what we see really commonly with trauma survivors, and I can explain a little bit on the nervous system side, maybe about why some of the trauma survivors experience like the exact same symptoms that you're describing. So I'd like to say that we all as humans have what we call the autonomic nervous system. And there's three parts, but in mental health, we really look at two. There is the... parasympathetic nervous system, and that is our resting off of our nervous system. That's the part of our nervous system that controls sleep and rest and safety and even digestion, right? So when we are in that calm state, that's kind of the way that we're in. Now, the other part of the nervous system that you are describing activation. is the sympathetic nervous system. And I think that we hear that often described as fight or flight. So that's that part. It's ingrained in us. We all have that. That protects us from danger and can speed up the way that we have our heart rate. It can cause tension. We are on edge. And the reason I think that you know, it can be sort of this self-fulfilling prophecy. It's almost a good thing because our bodies are protecting us from safety. But if you are on guard and you have to be on guard to make it through whatever it is you're going through in life. It's almost like we get stuck there and your body doesn't know when it's okay to turn the dial down from fight or flight and shift into the rest and digest mode. And the way that that can feel is just like your body never slows down, never turns off. And it is exhausting to be constantly in that place. So, you know, it's definitely a challenge. I have clients, I see that. have the symptoms again that you've described and they've lived that way for so long, it's almost like they don't know what it even feels like to turn that down and to slip into the other nervous system.
Speaker #0
So what does it feel like if you were to take a client from A to Z and they get to Z, how does life look like and how does it feel like in your body?
Speaker #1
Yeah. So normally what I do with clients is I will ask them to close their eyes and we sit in the office or on the computer either way. And we will go and do a body scan. And so that just means we go from top to bottom. I say from like hair follicles to your toes. And you imagine, okay, we're, you know, we're going this, you know, centimeter by centimeter. And we're looking to see where, what feels tense, what feels tight. what may feel like even vibrating within the body. And with clients, I have them describe and slow down and tell me when we get there. So for example, if I did that with you, you might get to your teeth and notice tension from grinding. And then we would work together to practice a muscle tension and a release. So it's kind of like if you think about, if you have your fist and you... squeeze your fist as tight as you can and ball up your fist. When you let go, your hand is going to release. So I use that as a little bit of a descriptor so that when we do that body scan and we identify what are the spots in your system where you're holding that tension, we work to do a release together. And for some clients, that's like they didn't realize where they're holding it. They had no idea. And so when we go through and we release it, it's like, oh my gosh, this feels great. And then it's really through practice that we can work to more shift and live in that state. And that's really, I think we're also the talk therapy comes in is the more you understand about why your body has gotten to that place and how the trauma that you may have experienced affects you, you can start to create safety, especially through support and relationships in your life.
Speaker #0
Knowledge is power, but when it comes down to therapy, I have learned that just because you know something doesn't always translate into real life practices. Especially in a situation that triggers you without even knowing you're just back to square one. If a person who has gone through years of therapy and have not done the somatic work, do you think... Talking therapy alone can help person get to a relaxed stage. Or do you think that some type of somatic body work needs to happen so the body can physically feel safe?
Speaker #1
So I think that there needs to be some sort of integration. And I think there's different ways that you can integrate body work into your life. You know, for me, I really find it to be effective to incorporate. in the middle of the therapy session together where my client and I will go through exercises to relax the system, relax the body, and to feel safe, even if it's just safe in their therapy session with me. So that way it's like, once you feel it, you can practice it and go home and continue with that. But the other thing we know also is that, you know, even beyond talk therapy, doing things like taking a yoga class, going for a run, doing stretching. Yoga for trauma has become something that is really great and accessible because there's a lot of different ways that people can relax their body. So, you know, ideally having psychotherapy and the somatic work and incorporating, you know, breathing and all different kinds of ways with a professional in the room is going to give you the tools. But if you're not currently in therapy don't feel like you are stuck. you know, any activity that's going to allow a release, a stretch, a relaxation, those things are still going to be really beneficial.
Speaker #0
Is this a linear healing process or this is a lot of back and forth and, you know, trial and error type of thing?
Speaker #1
I wish it could be linear. And I think, you know, when I start working with the client, whether they are new to therapy or they've tried a therapy in the past, you know, we will see kind of where are you right now as far as stressors in your life. Because even if you may have had trauma as a child and now it's been 30 years later, but you're not, you know, living in a safe environment or the people that you surround yourself with may be triggering you, even if you have worked through some of the trauma, your body will still... understand and have like the ability to slip back into fight or flight. I mean, the good thing is that if you've been able to have more control over your nervous system in the past, that teaching piece of relaxing and finding that again is a little bit easier because you've felt it. But I think it's important to know. that having a trauma history is always going to give you a higher likelihood of returning to that phase. And that can be an immediate trigger that sends you there, or it can be even like ongoing stress that's cumulative that will put your nervous system back into another place. So it's definitely something that can be a little frustrating, but I think that's part of it is Like you said, it's the knowledge. It's knowing how to relax your body. So that's a skill set. And it's also knowing when to ask for support and to incorporate it in your life, I would say as a routine is really the best way. So if you are a person that can always wake up and do five minutes of breathing and stretching, relaxation, or can do mindfulness before bed every night, it's like a little bit of preventative maintenance. So there's definitely ways to have better control, even if it's not perfect.
Speaker #0
What's your take on positive affirmations and meditation?
Speaker #1
People will ask, like, what's the best? What's the best way? And what's the fastest way? And it's really person specific. I really encourage clients to do a mindfulness practice that is portable and quick. That way, if you are activated when you are at work or you're in the middle of a meeting or you're walking down the street, because again, that's the thing. We don't have a lot of control without a lot of practice over getting out of fight or flight and we never know when we may be triggered. So I usually encourage three mindful breaths and then exactly what you said, which is either a positive affirmation. or even a mantra. So that way you are, you know, relaxing your body and then refocusing your mind on something that's positive, knowing that trauma survivors can be some of the people who are hardest on ourselves about our actions, about our past, our behaviors. So I love the concept of a positive affirmation or a mantra because you're shifting your thoughts. you can hold on to for the day and it's not going to be a dark thought.
Speaker #0
All right. Let's make this about me real quick. So, okay. So I grab my teeth. We talked about it and I had a therapist last year. I saw her for like a good four years and I told her like, I grab my teeth and then I have a night guard at night, but I don't wear it because I always think that I'm going to wear it like right before I fall asleep. But then next, you know, I wake up. Like wake up, it's in the morning, right? And she said something. She was like, maybe your body doesn't like it or your body doesn't need it. That kind of inspired me to think about this conversation that we just had, finding the thing that works for you. I have been following Dr. Joe Dispenza for five, six years. He is somebody who believes meditation can help people heal their body physically. And his meditations are like an hour long. So after five, six years of somewhat consistently doing it, I still hesitate. Like I still don't want to. But then when I listen to certain like affirmation on, you know, my phone, I love it. Like I'm just like here for it. Is that like an example of we need to honor what works for us rather than force us to do something that we think is supposed to be good or better for us?
Speaker #1
I think that's a great example for a lot of people to sit and to meditate, whether it's just. you're breathing and there's no speaking, or if it's a guided meditation, that's for an hour. You know, for many people, that is hard to fit into daily life. And so it may be impractical. And so that can, if you're someone who doesn't have great self-worth, which is another common experience after trauma, and then you're not able to keep up with your self-care or your mindfulness routine. can actually, again, feed negatively into your system where you feel like you're not good enough because you're not living up to the expectations, whether they're set by yourself, whether that's asked of you by a therapist, or if that's just someone who, you know, is another professional, you know, who writes a book or does a podcast and says that this hour is really what's needed. So, you know, I feel like. Again, going to always offer my client something that is practical they can actually do because then they will stick to it. And honoring your body, absolutely. I don't want you to hurt your teeth, right? But if your body is saying, that's not the way that I relax, that's not the way I come out of that fight or flight state, then we figure out, okay, then what is? Work together to find what is that for you. and that sometimes can be a little bit of a journey, but there's so many options. It's really about finding that like magic mix for clients.
Speaker #0
In your practice, you offer safe and sound. What is safe and sound?
Speaker #1
So the safe and sound protocol goes back a little bit to that two sides of our nervous system that I talked about a minute ago. And this was developed by Dr. Stephen Porges. So just want to mention this is not a Sarah thing. So, you know, within ourselves, we have the side, which is the fight or flight, and then we have that rest and digest state. And like we talked about it a minute ago, is that trauma survivors will live in that fight or flight state. And the idea behind it, which he refers to as polyvagal theory, and the vagus nerve is the biggest nerve in our body. And so theory tells us that when we are living in that fight or flight state, of course, not only do we get stuck there, but one of the ways that it affects us so strongly is that it becomes very isolating and that, you know, one of the best ways to bring yourself out of a trauma to feel safe again is through this concept of co-regulation. So that's, you know, kind of therapy terms for human connection. So if you think about some of the ways we can feel safe, even if it's safety in the therapy session or it's safety through a parent or a friend or just being around other human beings, right? We take ourself out of that isolating, scared fight or flight. And instead, we want to use... other kind of people, right? Other people to calm our system. Now, the caveat again is that if you've had extensive trauma, you may not feel safe around other people. So we may know on one hand that being cared for and loved and supported by others brings us to the best state. But if you don't trust other people, you get stuck, right? And it's more of that stuck. feeling. So SSP is really a fascinating tool because they've created music, like a type of music or listening therapy where they integrate tones that are similar to the human voice in a calming way. So when you listen to SSP, it just sounds like music, but integrated into that music Like are like the. calming tones of a human body. And so while you listen, you are getting that co-regulation through the music and you can bring down your nervous system in that way. And so for clients, it works really well because you just listen for a little bit. It's just like listening to music, but what your nervous system is hearing is calm, co-regulation, and relaxation. And it brings you down to a place of calm without having to, you know, take five yoga classes and do mindfulness and do all the things.
Speaker #0
Is this something that people can find online or this has to go through a professional?
Speaker #1
So there are different ways to access SSP. So we'll always start in the beginning with a professional. And that's really because we want to make sure that you're a good candidate, which is pretty much, you know, most people are. But also because sometimes when you're going through SSP. And you start noticing that your body is changing, that you're feeling calm. It can also allow things to surface that you may have experienced in the past and you may have buried.
Speaker #0
So,
Speaker #1
you know, going through the process with a therapist, either, you know, that you can reach out to if you're struggling or to have a therapist in a room to really help you process as you go along can be really ideal. But there's definitely a lot of ways that clients use SSP without the therapist in the room. Things like listening to music and then journaling is a really great option. Doing something artistic or taking a walk afterwards. So that allows the calmness, that calm state that you get out of it to integrate slowly into your life. And you're not just going to the next thing and the next thing. It's that integration as well.
Speaker #0
Earlier, you talked about co-regulating and environments that make you feel safe in particularly people. And I understand that there are people who are in toxic relationships, whether it is romantic or, you know, family system. For people who can not leave. at this moment for different reasons, how can they feel some type of safety and help themselves to heal a bit?
Speaker #1
I think that's a great question. You know, when I work with clients who are in, whether it's a violent relationship or they're living in a home where they are unsafe. And unsafe can be different things, right? Because it's not just that it could be physically unsafe. It can be where there's emotional abuse, financial abuse, can be a variety of reasons that people are unsafe. What we'd want to do first is to create a basic safety plan. And that's really looking at the practical aspects of safety before we jump into looking at safety in the body. And so that would be things like, what's your exit strategy? Let's say with your neighbor, whether it's cash or an extra cell phone or clothing, kind of having that go bag so that if you need to leave, that you can do that. You will talk with someone like me about what may be triggering events. So if you're in an abusive relationship, you may have ways to know when there's higher risk times. And also even things such as staying away from the kitchen or from bathrooms, because those are more dangerous areas if there's physical abuse going on. So, you know, we always want to start with just bottom line, what can we do to get to safety? If the person is ready to leave that relationship, then, you know, always want to support them with a step-by-step plan. But going back to what you said earlier. about honoring ourselves and our bodies. I always feel like it's never my job as the therapist to say, you need to leave. More it's like, okay, let's talk about what it is that you choose for yourself and then work together to create the safest space that we possibly can. And then when clients have left that unhealthy dynamic, whether it's a family or a partner, then we can really work on the real. healing. And that can be, again, sort of working on the practical side, which can be establishing your own bank account and your own place to live, and then working through the body and learning to relax and to trust. Because we often lose trust in ourselves.
Speaker #0
Right. Do you know who Taylor Frankie Paul is?
Speaker #1
No. Tell.
Speaker #0
So she was the bachelorette for last year. She had a show called The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. So the reason I brought her up is because I had a conversation with a therapist about she was in a toxic, abusive relationship. And then, you know, she got out and she repeated the pattern a little bit. And we were just talking about what you choose as a life for yourself. Sometimes it is really hard to choose a better life because to a certain degree, we're so used to it and we're looking for it. And sometimes our body takes us to those circumstances. You know. there is a familiarity to it. So how would you help people to make a different choice?
Speaker #1
Absolutely. I always will start with my, you know, experience going back to my first job working with trauma survivors. I was working as a victim advocate for people who were needing protective orders, leaving abusive relationships. I worked there and I also worked in domestic violence shelter. And what I learned is that it takes on average seven attempts for someone to leave an abusive relationship. And so working, for example, in a shelter environment where people would come, you know, when they needed a confidential safe space from physical violence, is that we would have clients that we would feel that. okay, we see them, they're safe, we're offering all of these amazing support, therapy and options and, you know, childcare and help with finding housing and a job. And they would return right back and return right back. And it's definitely not an indication of the person's decision-making capacity or intelligence, but it's really about the power and the control that exists in abusive dynamics. So that person who is the abuser can really sink their teeth in and they can make the person who's the survivor feel like they have no ability to live independently. It really wears down your sense of self to that point so much that, you know, the concept of leaving that relationship becomes so foreign and so scary that even with support, it's hard to overcome. And there's also, you know, the other pieces of negative self-worth about stigma, embarrassment, and then the practicality of life is expensive here, right? If you are in an abusive relationship or you may have been isolated from your family or support system, maybe you don't have great income. All of these things are limiting factors and they become this big sort of swell of reasons why. often staying is easier than leaving.
Speaker #0
You said it averagely take people seven tries to eventually walk away. Is there like a faster route? Is there like a pill we can take and just like, just, you know, overcome a lot of the conditioning?
Speaker #1
And so what we look for is to create protective factors. So protective factors will help people either not return immediately or not return over time or not jump from one toxic relationship to the next. We see that as well. And protective factors are things like having a therapist, having connections in the community, you know, taking a class, right, working, making friends, growing a support system. Anything that you can do that's going to create a positive environment and a safety net for yourself starts to be a protective factor that's sort of in between you as the survivor and the abuser. So the more protective factors that we can put in the middle there, the more likely this person will be to avoid returning time and time again. You know, and the other thing is, too, is I think if people are able to cut ties and cut ties, you know, permanently.
Speaker #0
I would say like if someone has children in common with their ex or their abuser, then they're going to have to interact. And so that trigger that we talk about for trauma survivors, they may be seeing that trigger so much more often than someone that's able to walk away from a relationship and there's nothing to share. There's still plenty to internally process. So it's definitely so hard, but they're not necessarily facing the same number of. triggers that others may face. So there's challenges in different ways.
Speaker #1
Got it. What is a common misbelief that you have seen on social media, online, that you're like, I don't really think this is how real therapy works, but then a lot of people believe?
Speaker #0
I think that one of the things that I see, especially working in the space for trauma, is that People think that their experience is not bad enough or that they are not deserving of having a therapeutic space or that always that sentiment of, well, other people have it worse. And so people can, in that way, really diminish their own experience and feel like, again, it kind of goes back to this combination of self-worth. They may be accustomed to living in fight or flight for so long that that's normal, right? Normal for them.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
So reaching out for help can be really challenging. And then, you know, even in the middle of sessions, even sessions, 10 sessions, 15 sessions in, I may still have to kind of draw my clients forward and say, you know, what you went through is real. This really is hard. This is not a you thing. not only that you're deserving of support and this is your space and that yes that really is trauma right I do that a lot with my clients I say that's real that really is trauma you do deserve to be here so that's really I think where is a little bit of a barrier and maybe a misconception is if you're thinking is this bad enough it's like yeah most of the time if you're thinking that thought do this. Not to mention that It doesn't have to be a 10 out of 10 horrible, miserable experience to ask for something.
Speaker #1
I do agree with that. And I used to struggle with that. I always think that there are people who are like, you know, went through war and like, you know, their experience is way worse. And I just remember learning that, like you said, validating your own experience first. But also my previous therapist said, it also depends on that person's nervous system. Something that... you went through might not be as triggering for them, but there's something that they went through might not be as triggering for you, but for them, it's like the end of the world. So I think it just also have this empathy to understand, like, we're built differently and we have different experiences.
Speaker #0
I like to tell clients as well that in a way that we are wired to go through trauma. It's like when you are driving down the interstate and you see a car accident, right? Most of us have that ability to witness that and to keep going, right? We go, how terrible. And then maybe we see an ambulance and we can keep driving and going on with our day, right? And that's us kind of witnessing a traumatic event and still being able to go through it because we're wired that way. But there's levels of severity. There's a big distinction between something like that and living in an abusive relationship, of course. But, you know, people who have experienced trauma, for example, you know, it can sort of become a little bit of a superpower because you learn to have a higher tolerance, a higher threshold, and which you can, in the right circumstance, really use to help you navigate tough situations. And so often if you put, I'd say like a room full of trauma therapists together, you're going to see a lot of trauma survivors in the room because of understanding, but also because of the ability to hold space for that without being necessarily triggered because of some of that tolerance being a little bit higher.
Speaker #1
Thank you, Sarah. If people want to work with you, how can they best find you?
Speaker #0
You can easily access my website, which is www. sarahsanfordtherapy.com and just, you know, click on the consultation button. That just gives clients an ability to chat with me for about 15 minutes and make sure that I would be the right therapist for them.
Speaker #1
That's awesome. I'll make sure to link all your bio and social media down below in the description. Thank you again, Sarah. We hope to have you back onto the show very soon. Thank you so much for being here with me today on The Zen Podcast. If this episode resonated with you, make sure you're subscribed and leave a comment with your biggest takeaway. That's how we grow this community and get these conversations in front of more people who need them. And if somebody came to mind while you're listening, please do make sure to send this episode to them. You can also find me on TikTok, Instagram, YouTube, Apple Podcasts, and Spotify. All linked below. Until next time, stay sharp. stay intentional and be good.

Chapters

Introduction and Trigger Warning
0sec
Understanding Trauma and the Nervous System
12sec
Introducing Sarah Semford and Her Work
53sec
Exploring Anxiety and Hypervigilance
1min
The Autonomic Nervous System Explained
3min
Body Scanning and Muscle Release Techniques
5min
Talk Therapy vs. Somatic Work
7min
The Non-Linear Healing Process
10min
Mindfulness Practices and Positive Affirmations
12min
The Safe and Sound Protocol Explained
17min
Creating Safety in Toxic Relationships
21min
Protective Factors for Leaving Abusive Relationships
26min
Common Misbeliefs About Therapy
30min
Conclusion and Resources
34min

About The Zhen Podcast

You’re listening to The Zhen Podcast - a show focused on mental health, physical health, relationship health, and the daily practices that support real, lasting change. Each episode features thoughtful conversations with guests who share real-life experiences — from their own journeys to the work they’ve done with clients - offering practical examples of healing, learning, and growth. We explore what actually helps people move forward, whether that comes from science, health, psychology, spirituality, or simple habits that make a meaningful difference. The goal is clarity, self-awareness, and tools you can apply to your own life — now let's begin the conversation Disclaimer: "The information provided in this Podcast Channel (the "Channel") does not, and is not intended to, constitute professional advice; instead, all information, content, and materials available on this Channel are for general informational purposes only. This Channel contains information provided by interviewees and/or links to other third-party websites. Such links are only for the convenience of the reader, user or browser. The views expressed at, or through, this site are those of the individual interviewees in their individual capacities only – not those of the Channel. All liability with respect to actions taken or not taken based on the contents of this Channel are hereby expressly disclaimed. The content on this posting is provided "as is;" no representations are made that the content is error-free."

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

About The Zhen Podcast

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Description

Connect with Sara: sarasanfordtherapy.com · (415) 870-6494 · Free 20-minute consultation: saralcsw.clientsecure.me

Join us as we explore the nuances of trauma healing, relationship anxiety, and the vital role of mindfulness in overcoming self-sabotage and imposter syndrome.

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Transcription

Speaker #0
Trigger warning, this episode includes discussions of trauma, alcohol, substance abuse, addiction, and suicide. Listener discretion is advised.
Speaker #1
It takes on average seven attempts for someone to leave an abusive relationship. And so working, for example, in a shelter environment where people would come when they needed a confidential safe space from physical violence. is that we would have clients that we would feel that, okay, we see them, they're safe, we're offering all of these amazing support, therapy and options and child care and help with finding housing and a job, and they would return right back and return right back.
Speaker #0
Welcome back to the show, everybody. Today, we have Sarah Semford. who has worked with trauma survivors for 20 years. She is a certified trauma professional who advocates, focuses on anxiety, relationship recovery, and different types of traumas. This is for people who feel anxious when everything seems completely fine, who always think something bad is going to happen, and who are trying to rebuild a life with the past and feel like they're always taking back to where they were before. So I personally sometimes experience hypervigilance and I feel like my body has always been breezed and not feeling that I can relax. So today I'm sitting down with Sarah to figure it out why we're always on guard and how to feel safe again. So welcome Sarah to the show.
Speaker #1
Well, thank you so much. I appreciate you. bringing me onto your show as well as for, you know, talking about mental health because I think that's how we get rid of stigma. So I'd love to talk a little bit about the nervous system and explain sort of the why behind your question. But if you don't mind, if you can explain a little bit for me about where you feel tense or how it feels in your body when you feel on guard.
Speaker #0
I will say it's been such a habit to feel you tense for decades. I would say I grab my teeth at night. Even when I go to sleep, my body does not relax. And then the next day I just feel exhausted, not be able to rest well. Day to day, I would say I over consume caffeine. So it's almost like I am living on adrenaline and I needed more caffeine to feel this level of rushing. Like I like to rush, like I'm not really living. a life. I'm not like, it's really rare that I sit down and read for pleasure. I'm always like trying to get from A to B. And I think the last one is I do feel I am always worried about something. And recently I discovered I care and love for myself by gaslighting myself.
Speaker #1
With the way you're describing that, I think really fits perfectly into you. You know, what we see really commonly with trauma survivors, and I can explain a little bit on the nervous system side, maybe about why some of the trauma survivors experience like the exact same symptoms that you're describing. So I'd like to say that we all as humans have what we call the autonomic nervous system. And there's three parts, but in mental health, we really look at two. There is the... parasympathetic nervous system, and that is our resting off of our nervous system. That's the part of our nervous system that controls sleep and rest and safety and even digestion, right? So when we are in that calm state, that's kind of the way that we're in. Now, the other part of the nervous system that you are describing activation. is the sympathetic nervous system. And I think that we hear that often described as fight or flight. So that's that part. It's ingrained in us. We all have that. That protects us from danger and can speed up the way that we have our heart rate. It can cause tension. We are on edge. And the reason I think that you know, it can be sort of this self-fulfilling prophecy. It's almost a good thing because our bodies are protecting us from safety. But if you are on guard and you have to be on guard to make it through whatever it is you're going through in life. It's almost like we get stuck there and your body doesn't know when it's okay to turn the dial down from fight or flight and shift into the rest and digest mode. And the way that that can feel is just like your body never slows down, never turns off. And it is exhausting to be constantly in that place. So, you know, it's definitely a challenge. I have clients, I see that. have the symptoms again that you've described and they've lived that way for so long, it's almost like they don't know what it even feels like to turn that down and to slip into the other nervous system.
Speaker #0
So what does it feel like if you were to take a client from A to Z and they get to Z, how does life look like and how does it feel like in your body?
Speaker #1
Yeah. So normally what I do with clients is I will ask them to close their eyes and we sit in the office or on the computer either way. And we will go and do a body scan. And so that just means we go from top to bottom. I say from like hair follicles to your toes. And you imagine, okay, we're, you know, we're going this, you know, centimeter by centimeter. And we're looking to see where, what feels tense, what feels tight. what may feel like even vibrating within the body. And with clients, I have them describe and slow down and tell me when we get there. So for example, if I did that with you, you might get to your teeth and notice tension from grinding. And then we would work together to practice a muscle tension and a release. So it's kind of like if you think about, if you have your fist and you... squeeze your fist as tight as you can and ball up your fist. When you let go, your hand is going to release. So I use that as a little bit of a descriptor so that when we do that body scan and we identify what are the spots in your system where you're holding that tension, we work to do a release together. And for some clients, that's like they didn't realize where they're holding it. They had no idea. And so when we go through and we release it, it's like, oh my gosh, this feels great. And then it's really through practice that we can work to more shift and live in that state. And that's really, I think we're also the talk therapy comes in is the more you understand about why your body has gotten to that place and how the trauma that you may have experienced affects you, you can start to create safety, especially through support and relationships in your life.
Speaker #0
Knowledge is power, but when it comes down to therapy, I have learned that just because you know something doesn't always translate into real life practices. Especially in a situation that triggers you without even knowing you're just back to square one. If a person who has gone through years of therapy and have not done the somatic work, do you think... Talking therapy alone can help person get to a relaxed stage. Or do you think that some type of somatic body work needs to happen so the body can physically feel safe?
Speaker #1
So I think that there needs to be some sort of integration. And I think there's different ways that you can integrate body work into your life. You know, for me, I really find it to be effective to incorporate. in the middle of the therapy session together where my client and I will go through exercises to relax the system, relax the body, and to feel safe, even if it's just safe in their therapy session with me. So that way it's like, once you feel it, you can practice it and go home and continue with that. But the other thing we know also is that, you know, even beyond talk therapy, doing things like taking a yoga class, going for a run, doing stretching. Yoga for trauma has become something that is really great and accessible because there's a lot of different ways that people can relax their body. So, you know, ideally having psychotherapy and the somatic work and incorporating, you know, breathing and all different kinds of ways with a professional in the room is going to give you the tools. But if you're not currently in therapy don't feel like you are stuck. you know, any activity that's going to allow a release, a stretch, a relaxation, those things are still going to be really beneficial.
Speaker #0
Is this a linear healing process or this is a lot of back and forth and, you know, trial and error type of thing?
Speaker #1
I wish it could be linear. And I think, you know, when I start working with the client, whether they are new to therapy or they've tried a therapy in the past, you know, we will see kind of where are you right now as far as stressors in your life. Because even if you may have had trauma as a child and now it's been 30 years later, but you're not, you know, living in a safe environment or the people that you surround yourself with may be triggering you, even if you have worked through some of the trauma, your body will still... understand and have like the ability to slip back into fight or flight. I mean, the good thing is that if you've been able to have more control over your nervous system in the past, that teaching piece of relaxing and finding that again is a little bit easier because you've felt it. But I think it's important to know. that having a trauma history is always going to give you a higher likelihood of returning to that phase. And that can be an immediate trigger that sends you there, or it can be even like ongoing stress that's cumulative that will put your nervous system back into another place. So it's definitely something that can be a little frustrating, but I think that's part of it is Like you said, it's the knowledge. It's knowing how to relax your body. So that's a skill set. And it's also knowing when to ask for support and to incorporate it in your life, I would say as a routine is really the best way. So if you are a person that can always wake up and do five minutes of breathing and stretching, relaxation, or can do mindfulness before bed every night, it's like a little bit of preventative maintenance. So there's definitely ways to have better control, even if it's not perfect.
Speaker #0
What's your take on positive affirmations and meditation?
Speaker #1
People will ask, like, what's the best? What's the best way? And what's the fastest way? And it's really person specific. I really encourage clients to do a mindfulness practice that is portable and quick. That way, if you are activated when you are at work or you're in the middle of a meeting or you're walking down the street, because again, that's the thing. We don't have a lot of control without a lot of practice over getting out of fight or flight and we never know when we may be triggered. So I usually encourage three mindful breaths and then exactly what you said, which is either a positive affirmation. or even a mantra. So that way you are, you know, relaxing your body and then refocusing your mind on something that's positive, knowing that trauma survivors can be some of the people who are hardest on ourselves about our actions, about our past, our behaviors. So I love the concept of a positive affirmation or a mantra because you're shifting your thoughts. you can hold on to for the day and it's not going to be a dark thought.
Speaker #0
All right. Let's make this about me real quick. So, okay. So I grab my teeth. We talked about it and I had a therapist last year. I saw her for like a good four years and I told her like, I grab my teeth and then I have a night guard at night, but I don't wear it because I always think that I'm going to wear it like right before I fall asleep. But then next, you know, I wake up. Like wake up, it's in the morning, right? And she said something. She was like, maybe your body doesn't like it or your body doesn't need it. That kind of inspired me to think about this conversation that we just had, finding the thing that works for you. I have been following Dr. Joe Dispenza for five, six years. He is somebody who believes meditation can help people heal their body physically. And his meditations are like an hour long. So after five, six years of somewhat consistently doing it, I still hesitate. Like I still don't want to. But then when I listen to certain like affirmation on, you know, my phone, I love it. Like I'm just like here for it. Is that like an example of we need to honor what works for us rather than force us to do something that we think is supposed to be good or better for us?
Speaker #1
I think that's a great example for a lot of people to sit and to meditate, whether it's just. you're breathing and there's no speaking, or if it's a guided meditation, that's for an hour. You know, for many people, that is hard to fit into daily life. And so it may be impractical. And so that can, if you're someone who doesn't have great self-worth, which is another common experience after trauma, and then you're not able to keep up with your self-care or your mindfulness routine. can actually, again, feed negatively into your system where you feel like you're not good enough because you're not living up to the expectations, whether they're set by yourself, whether that's asked of you by a therapist, or if that's just someone who, you know, is another professional, you know, who writes a book or does a podcast and says that this hour is really what's needed. So, you know, I feel like. Again, going to always offer my client something that is practical they can actually do because then they will stick to it. And honoring your body, absolutely. I don't want you to hurt your teeth, right? But if your body is saying, that's not the way that I relax, that's not the way I come out of that fight or flight state, then we figure out, okay, then what is? Work together to find what is that for you. and that sometimes can be a little bit of a journey, but there's so many options. It's really about finding that like magic mix for clients.
Speaker #0
In your practice, you offer safe and sound. What is safe and sound?
Speaker #1
So the safe and sound protocol goes back a little bit to that two sides of our nervous system that I talked about a minute ago. And this was developed by Dr. Stephen Porges. So just want to mention this is not a Sarah thing. So, you know, within ourselves, we have the side, which is the fight or flight, and then we have that rest and digest state. And like we talked about it a minute ago, is that trauma survivors will live in that fight or flight state. And the idea behind it, which he refers to as polyvagal theory, and the vagus nerve is the biggest nerve in our body. And so theory tells us that when we are living in that fight or flight state, of course, not only do we get stuck there, but one of the ways that it affects us so strongly is that it becomes very isolating and that, you know, one of the best ways to bring yourself out of a trauma to feel safe again is through this concept of co-regulation. So that's, you know, kind of therapy terms for human connection. So if you think about some of the ways we can feel safe, even if it's safety in the therapy session or it's safety through a parent or a friend or just being around other human beings, right? We take ourself out of that isolating, scared fight or flight. And instead, we want to use... other kind of people, right? Other people to calm our system. Now, the caveat again is that if you've had extensive trauma, you may not feel safe around other people. So we may know on one hand that being cared for and loved and supported by others brings us to the best state. But if you don't trust other people, you get stuck, right? And it's more of that stuck. feeling. So SSP is really a fascinating tool because they've created music, like a type of music or listening therapy where they integrate tones that are similar to the human voice in a calming way. So when you listen to SSP, it just sounds like music, but integrated into that music Like are like the. calming tones of a human body. And so while you listen, you are getting that co-regulation through the music and you can bring down your nervous system in that way. And so for clients, it works really well because you just listen for a little bit. It's just like listening to music, but what your nervous system is hearing is calm, co-regulation, and relaxation. And it brings you down to a place of calm without having to, you know, take five yoga classes and do mindfulness and do all the things.
Speaker #0
Is this something that people can find online or this has to go through a professional?
Speaker #1
So there are different ways to access SSP. So we'll always start in the beginning with a professional. And that's really because we want to make sure that you're a good candidate, which is pretty much, you know, most people are. But also because sometimes when you're going through SSP. And you start noticing that your body is changing, that you're feeling calm. It can also allow things to surface that you may have experienced in the past and you may have buried.
Speaker #0
So,
Speaker #1
you know, going through the process with a therapist, either, you know, that you can reach out to if you're struggling or to have a therapist in a room to really help you process as you go along can be really ideal. But there's definitely a lot of ways that clients use SSP without the therapist in the room. Things like listening to music and then journaling is a really great option. Doing something artistic or taking a walk afterwards. So that allows the calmness, that calm state that you get out of it to integrate slowly into your life. And you're not just going to the next thing and the next thing. It's that integration as well.
Speaker #0
Earlier, you talked about co-regulating and environments that make you feel safe in particularly people. And I understand that there are people who are in toxic relationships, whether it is romantic or, you know, family system. For people who can not leave. at this moment for different reasons, how can they feel some type of safety and help themselves to heal a bit?
Speaker #1
I think that's a great question. You know, when I work with clients who are in, whether it's a violent relationship or they're living in a home where they are unsafe. And unsafe can be different things, right? Because it's not just that it could be physically unsafe. It can be where there's emotional abuse, financial abuse, can be a variety of reasons that people are unsafe. What we'd want to do first is to create a basic safety plan. And that's really looking at the practical aspects of safety before we jump into looking at safety in the body. And so that would be things like, what's your exit strategy? Let's say with your neighbor, whether it's cash or an extra cell phone or clothing, kind of having that go bag so that if you need to leave, that you can do that. You will talk with someone like me about what may be triggering events. So if you're in an abusive relationship, you may have ways to know when there's higher risk times. And also even things such as staying away from the kitchen or from bathrooms, because those are more dangerous areas if there's physical abuse going on. So, you know, we always want to start with just bottom line, what can we do to get to safety? If the person is ready to leave that relationship, then, you know, always want to support them with a step-by-step plan. But going back to what you said earlier. about honoring ourselves and our bodies. I always feel like it's never my job as the therapist to say, you need to leave. More it's like, okay, let's talk about what it is that you choose for yourself and then work together to create the safest space that we possibly can. And then when clients have left that unhealthy dynamic, whether it's a family or a partner, then we can really work on the real. healing. And that can be, again, sort of working on the practical side, which can be establishing your own bank account and your own place to live, and then working through the body and learning to relax and to trust. Because we often lose trust in ourselves.
Speaker #0
Right. Do you know who Taylor Frankie Paul is?
Speaker #1
No. Tell.
Speaker #0
So she was the bachelorette for last year. She had a show called The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. So the reason I brought her up is because I had a conversation with a therapist about she was in a toxic, abusive relationship. And then, you know, she got out and she repeated the pattern a little bit. And we were just talking about what you choose as a life for yourself. Sometimes it is really hard to choose a better life because to a certain degree, we're so used to it and we're looking for it. And sometimes our body takes us to those circumstances. You know. there is a familiarity to it. So how would you help people to make a different choice?
Speaker #1
Absolutely. I always will start with my, you know, experience going back to my first job working with trauma survivors. I was working as a victim advocate for people who were needing protective orders, leaving abusive relationships. I worked there and I also worked in domestic violence shelter. And what I learned is that it takes on average seven attempts for someone to leave an abusive relationship. And so working, for example, in a shelter environment where people would come, you know, when they needed a confidential safe space from physical violence, is that we would have clients that we would feel that. okay, we see them, they're safe, we're offering all of these amazing support, therapy and options and, you know, childcare and help with finding housing and a job. And they would return right back and return right back. And it's definitely not an indication of the person's decision-making capacity or intelligence, but it's really about the power and the control that exists in abusive dynamics. So that person who is the abuser can really sink their teeth in and they can make the person who's the survivor feel like they have no ability to live independently. It really wears down your sense of self to that point so much that, you know, the concept of leaving that relationship becomes so foreign and so scary that even with support, it's hard to overcome. And there's also, you know, the other pieces of negative self-worth about stigma, embarrassment, and then the practicality of life is expensive here, right? If you are in an abusive relationship or you may have been isolated from your family or support system, maybe you don't have great income. All of these things are limiting factors and they become this big sort of swell of reasons why. often staying is easier than leaving.
Speaker #0
You said it averagely take people seven tries to eventually walk away. Is there like a faster route? Is there like a pill we can take and just like, just, you know, overcome a lot of the conditioning?
Speaker #1
And so what we look for is to create protective factors. So protective factors will help people either not return immediately or not return over time or not jump from one toxic relationship to the next. We see that as well. And protective factors are things like having a therapist, having connections in the community, you know, taking a class, right, working, making friends, growing a support system. Anything that you can do that's going to create a positive environment and a safety net for yourself starts to be a protective factor that's sort of in between you as the survivor and the abuser. So the more protective factors that we can put in the middle there, the more likely this person will be to avoid returning time and time again. You know, and the other thing is, too, is I think if people are able to cut ties and cut ties, you know, permanently.
Speaker #0
I would say like if someone has children in common with their ex or their abuser, then they're going to have to interact. And so that trigger that we talk about for trauma survivors, they may be seeing that trigger so much more often than someone that's able to walk away from a relationship and there's nothing to share. There's still plenty to internally process. So it's definitely so hard, but they're not necessarily facing the same number of. triggers that others may face. So there's challenges in different ways.
Speaker #1
Got it. What is a common misbelief that you have seen on social media, online, that you're like, I don't really think this is how real therapy works, but then a lot of people believe?
Speaker #0
I think that one of the things that I see, especially working in the space for trauma, is that People think that their experience is not bad enough or that they are not deserving of having a therapeutic space or that always that sentiment of, well, other people have it worse. And so people can, in that way, really diminish their own experience and feel like, again, it kind of goes back to this combination of self-worth. They may be accustomed to living in fight or flight for so long that that's normal, right? Normal for them.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
So reaching out for help can be really challenging. And then, you know, even in the middle of sessions, even sessions, 10 sessions, 15 sessions in, I may still have to kind of draw my clients forward and say, you know, what you went through is real. This really is hard. This is not a you thing. not only that you're deserving of support and this is your space and that yes that really is trauma right I do that a lot with my clients I say that's real that really is trauma you do deserve to be here so that's really I think where is a little bit of a barrier and maybe a misconception is if you're thinking is this bad enough it's like yeah most of the time if you're thinking that thought do this. Not to mention that It doesn't have to be a 10 out of 10 horrible, miserable experience to ask for something.
Speaker #1
I do agree with that. And I used to struggle with that. I always think that there are people who are like, you know, went through war and like, you know, their experience is way worse. And I just remember learning that, like you said, validating your own experience first. But also my previous therapist said, it also depends on that person's nervous system. Something that... you went through might not be as triggering for them, but there's something that they went through might not be as triggering for you, but for them, it's like the end of the world. So I think it just also have this empathy to understand, like, we're built differently and we have different experiences.
Speaker #0
I like to tell clients as well that in a way that we are wired to go through trauma. It's like when you are driving down the interstate and you see a car accident, right? Most of us have that ability to witness that and to keep going, right? We go, how terrible. And then maybe we see an ambulance and we can keep driving and going on with our day, right? And that's us kind of witnessing a traumatic event and still being able to go through it because we're wired that way. But there's levels of severity. There's a big distinction between something like that and living in an abusive relationship, of course. But, you know, people who have experienced trauma, for example, you know, it can sort of become a little bit of a superpower because you learn to have a higher tolerance, a higher threshold, and which you can, in the right circumstance, really use to help you navigate tough situations. And so often if you put, I'd say like a room full of trauma therapists together, you're going to see a lot of trauma survivors in the room because of understanding, but also because of the ability to hold space for that without being necessarily triggered because of some of that tolerance being a little bit higher.
Speaker #1
Thank you, Sarah. If people want to work with you, how can they best find you?
Speaker #0
You can easily access my website, which is www. sarahsanfordtherapy.com and just, you know, click on the consultation button. That just gives clients an ability to chat with me for about 15 minutes and make sure that I would be the right therapist for them.
Speaker #1
That's awesome. I'll make sure to link all your bio and social media down below in the description. Thank you again, Sarah. We hope to have you back onto the show very soon. Thank you so much for being here with me today on The Zen Podcast. If this episode resonated with you, make sure you're subscribed and leave a comment with your biggest takeaway. That's how we grow this community and get these conversations in front of more people who need them. And if somebody came to mind while you're listening, please do make sure to send this episode to them. You can also find me on TikTok, Instagram, YouTube, Apple Podcasts, and Spotify. All linked below. Until next time, stay sharp. stay intentional and be good.

Chapters

Introduction and Trigger Warning
0sec
Understanding Trauma and the Nervous System
12sec
Introducing Sarah Semford and Her Work
53sec
Exploring Anxiety and Hypervigilance
1min
The Autonomic Nervous System Explained
3min
Body Scanning and Muscle Release Techniques
5min
Talk Therapy vs. Somatic Work
7min
The Non-Linear Healing Process
10min
Mindfulness Practices and Positive Affirmations
12min
The Safe and Sound Protocol Explained
17min
Creating Safety in Toxic Relationships
21min
Protective Factors for Leaving Abusive Relationships
26min
Common Misbeliefs About Therapy
30min
Conclusion and Resources
34min

About The Zhen Podcast

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

About The Zhen Podcast

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Embed

Introduction and Trigger Warning

0sec

Understanding Trauma and the Nervous System

12sec

Introducing Sarah Semford and Her Work

53sec

Exploring Anxiety and Hypervigilance

1min

The Autonomic Nervous System Explained

3min

Body Scanning and Muscle Release Techniques

5min

Talk Therapy vs. Somatic Work

7min

The Non-Linear Healing Process

10min

Mindfulness Practices and Positive Affirmations

12min

The Safe and Sound Protocol Explained

17min

Creating Safety in Toxic Relationships

21min

Protective Factors for Leaving Abusive Relationships

26min

Common Misbeliefs About Therapy

30min

Conclusion and Resources

34min

Transcription

Speaker #0
Trigger warning, this episode includes discussions of trauma, alcohol, substance abuse, addiction, and suicide. Listener discretion is advised.
Speaker #1
It takes on average seven attempts for someone to leave an abusive relationship. And so working, for example, in a shelter environment where people would come when they needed a confidential safe space from physical violence. is that we would have clients that we would feel that, okay, we see them, they're safe, we're offering all of these amazing support, therapy and options and child care and help with finding housing and a job, and they would return right back and return right back.
Speaker #0
Welcome back to the show, everybody. Today, we have Sarah Semford. who has worked with trauma survivors for 20 years. She is a certified trauma professional who advocates, focuses on anxiety, relationship recovery, and different types of traumas. This is for people who feel anxious when everything seems completely fine, who always think something bad is going to happen, and who are trying to rebuild a life with the past and feel like they're always taking back to where they were before. So I personally sometimes experience hypervigilance and I feel like my body has always been breezed and not feeling that I can relax. So today I'm sitting down with Sarah to figure it out why we're always on guard and how to feel safe again. So welcome Sarah to the show.
Speaker #1
Well, thank you so much. I appreciate you. bringing me onto your show as well as for, you know, talking about mental health because I think that's how we get rid of stigma. So I'd love to talk a little bit about the nervous system and explain sort of the why behind your question. But if you don't mind, if you can explain a little bit for me about where you feel tense or how it feels in your body when you feel on guard.
Speaker #0
I will say it's been such a habit to feel you tense for decades. I would say I grab my teeth at night. Even when I go to sleep, my body does not relax. And then the next day I just feel exhausted, not be able to rest well. Day to day, I would say I over consume caffeine. So it's almost like I am living on adrenaline and I needed more caffeine to feel this level of rushing. Like I like to rush, like I'm not really living. a life. I'm not like, it's really rare that I sit down and read for pleasure. I'm always like trying to get from A to B. And I think the last one is I do feel I am always worried about something. And recently I discovered I care and love for myself by gaslighting myself.
Speaker #1
With the way you're describing that, I think really fits perfectly into you. You know, what we see really commonly with trauma survivors, and I can explain a little bit on the nervous system side, maybe about why some of the trauma survivors experience like the exact same symptoms that you're describing. So I'd like to say that we all as humans have what we call the autonomic nervous system. And there's three parts, but in mental health, we really look at two. There is the... parasympathetic nervous system, and that is our resting off of our nervous system. That's the part of our nervous system that controls sleep and rest and safety and even digestion, right? So when we are in that calm state, that's kind of the way that we're in. Now, the other part of the nervous system that you are describing activation. is the sympathetic nervous system. And I think that we hear that often described as fight or flight. So that's that part. It's ingrained in us. We all have that. That protects us from danger and can speed up the way that we have our heart rate. It can cause tension. We are on edge. And the reason I think that you know, it can be sort of this self-fulfilling prophecy. It's almost a good thing because our bodies are protecting us from safety. But if you are on guard and you have to be on guard to make it through whatever it is you're going through in life. It's almost like we get stuck there and your body doesn't know when it's okay to turn the dial down from fight or flight and shift into the rest and digest mode. And the way that that can feel is just like your body never slows down, never turns off. And it is exhausting to be constantly in that place. So, you know, it's definitely a challenge. I have clients, I see that. have the symptoms again that you've described and they've lived that way for so long, it's almost like they don't know what it even feels like to turn that down and to slip into the other nervous system.
Speaker #0
So what does it feel like if you were to take a client from A to Z and they get to Z, how does life look like and how does it feel like in your body?
Speaker #1
Yeah. So normally what I do with clients is I will ask them to close their eyes and we sit in the office or on the computer either way. And we will go and do a body scan. And so that just means we go from top to bottom. I say from like hair follicles to your toes. And you imagine, okay, we're, you know, we're going this, you know, centimeter by centimeter. And we're looking to see where, what feels tense, what feels tight. what may feel like even vibrating within the body. And with clients, I have them describe and slow down and tell me when we get there. So for example, if I did that with you, you might get to your teeth and notice tension from grinding. And then we would work together to practice a muscle tension and a release. So it's kind of like if you think about, if you have your fist and you... squeeze your fist as tight as you can and ball up your fist. When you let go, your hand is going to release. So I use that as a little bit of a descriptor so that when we do that body scan and we identify what are the spots in your system where you're holding that tension, we work to do a release together. And for some clients, that's like they didn't realize where they're holding it. They had no idea. And so when we go through and we release it, it's like, oh my gosh, this feels great. And then it's really through practice that we can work to more shift and live in that state. And that's really, I think we're also the talk therapy comes in is the more you understand about why your body has gotten to that place and how the trauma that you may have experienced affects you, you can start to create safety, especially through support and relationships in your life.
Speaker #0
Knowledge is power, but when it comes down to therapy, I have learned that just because you know something doesn't always translate into real life practices. Especially in a situation that triggers you without even knowing you're just back to square one. If a person who has gone through years of therapy and have not done the somatic work, do you think... Talking therapy alone can help person get to a relaxed stage. Or do you think that some type of somatic body work needs to happen so the body can physically feel safe?
Speaker #1
So I think that there needs to be some sort of integration. And I think there's different ways that you can integrate body work into your life. You know, for me, I really find it to be effective to incorporate. in the middle of the therapy session together where my client and I will go through exercises to relax the system, relax the body, and to feel safe, even if it's just safe in their therapy session with me. So that way it's like, once you feel it, you can practice it and go home and continue with that. But the other thing we know also is that, you know, even beyond talk therapy, doing things like taking a yoga class, going for a run, doing stretching. Yoga for trauma has become something that is really great and accessible because there's a lot of different ways that people can relax their body. So, you know, ideally having psychotherapy and the somatic work and incorporating, you know, breathing and all different kinds of ways with a professional in the room is going to give you the tools. But if you're not currently in therapy don't feel like you are stuck. you know, any activity that's going to allow a release, a stretch, a relaxation, those things are still going to be really beneficial.
Speaker #0
Is this a linear healing process or this is a lot of back and forth and, you know, trial and error type of thing?
Speaker #1
I wish it could be linear. And I think, you know, when I start working with the client, whether they are new to therapy or they've tried a therapy in the past, you know, we will see kind of where are you right now as far as stressors in your life. Because even if you may have had trauma as a child and now it's been 30 years later, but you're not, you know, living in a safe environment or the people that you surround yourself with may be triggering you, even if you have worked through some of the trauma, your body will still... understand and have like the ability to slip back into fight or flight. I mean, the good thing is that if you've been able to have more control over your nervous system in the past, that teaching piece of relaxing and finding that again is a little bit easier because you've felt it. But I think it's important to know. that having a trauma history is always going to give you a higher likelihood of returning to that phase. And that can be an immediate trigger that sends you there, or it can be even like ongoing stress that's cumulative that will put your nervous system back into another place. So it's definitely something that can be a little frustrating, but I think that's part of it is Like you said, it's the knowledge. It's knowing how to relax your body. So that's a skill set. And it's also knowing when to ask for support and to incorporate it in your life, I would say as a routine is really the best way. So if you are a person that can always wake up and do five minutes of breathing and stretching, relaxation, or can do mindfulness before bed every night, it's like a little bit of preventative maintenance. So there's definitely ways to have better control, even if it's not perfect.
Speaker #0
What's your take on positive affirmations and meditation?
Speaker #1
People will ask, like, what's the best? What's the best way? And what's the fastest way? And it's really person specific. I really encourage clients to do a mindfulness practice that is portable and quick. That way, if you are activated when you are at work or you're in the middle of a meeting or you're walking down the street, because again, that's the thing. We don't have a lot of control without a lot of practice over getting out of fight or flight and we never know when we may be triggered. So I usually encourage three mindful breaths and then exactly what you said, which is either a positive affirmation. or even a mantra. So that way you are, you know, relaxing your body and then refocusing your mind on something that's positive, knowing that trauma survivors can be some of the people who are hardest on ourselves about our actions, about our past, our behaviors. So I love the concept of a positive affirmation or a mantra because you're shifting your thoughts. you can hold on to for the day and it's not going to be a dark thought.
Speaker #0
All right. Let's make this about me real quick. So, okay. So I grab my teeth. We talked about it and I had a therapist last year. I saw her for like a good four years and I told her like, I grab my teeth and then I have a night guard at night, but I don't wear it because I always think that I'm going to wear it like right before I fall asleep. But then next, you know, I wake up. Like wake up, it's in the morning, right? And she said something. She was like, maybe your body doesn't like it or your body doesn't need it. That kind of inspired me to think about this conversation that we just had, finding the thing that works for you. I have been following Dr. Joe Dispenza for five, six years. He is somebody who believes meditation can help people heal their body physically. And his meditations are like an hour long. So after five, six years of somewhat consistently doing it, I still hesitate. Like I still don't want to. But then when I listen to certain like affirmation on, you know, my phone, I love it. Like I'm just like here for it. Is that like an example of we need to honor what works for us rather than force us to do something that we think is supposed to be good or better for us?
Speaker #1
I think that's a great example for a lot of people to sit and to meditate, whether it's just. you're breathing and there's no speaking, or if it's a guided meditation, that's for an hour. You know, for many people, that is hard to fit into daily life. And so it may be impractical. And so that can, if you're someone who doesn't have great self-worth, which is another common experience after trauma, and then you're not able to keep up with your self-care or your mindfulness routine. can actually, again, feed negatively into your system where you feel like you're not good enough because you're not living up to the expectations, whether they're set by yourself, whether that's asked of you by a therapist, or if that's just someone who, you know, is another professional, you know, who writes a book or does a podcast and says that this hour is really what's needed. So, you know, I feel like. Again, going to always offer my client something that is practical they can actually do because then they will stick to it. And honoring your body, absolutely. I don't want you to hurt your teeth, right? But if your body is saying, that's not the way that I relax, that's not the way I come out of that fight or flight state, then we figure out, okay, then what is? Work together to find what is that for you. and that sometimes can be a little bit of a journey, but there's so many options. It's really about finding that like magic mix for clients.
Speaker #0
In your practice, you offer safe and sound. What is safe and sound?
Speaker #1
So the safe and sound protocol goes back a little bit to that two sides of our nervous system that I talked about a minute ago. And this was developed by Dr. Stephen Porges. So just want to mention this is not a Sarah thing. So, you know, within ourselves, we have the side, which is the fight or flight, and then we have that rest and digest state. And like we talked about it a minute ago, is that trauma survivors will live in that fight or flight state. And the idea behind it, which he refers to as polyvagal theory, and the vagus nerve is the biggest nerve in our body. And so theory tells us that when we are living in that fight or flight state, of course, not only do we get stuck there, but one of the ways that it affects us so strongly is that it becomes very isolating and that, you know, one of the best ways to bring yourself out of a trauma to feel safe again is through this concept of co-regulation. So that's, you know, kind of therapy terms for human connection. So if you think about some of the ways we can feel safe, even if it's safety in the therapy session or it's safety through a parent or a friend or just being around other human beings, right? We take ourself out of that isolating, scared fight or flight. And instead, we want to use... other kind of people, right? Other people to calm our system. Now, the caveat again is that if you've had extensive trauma, you may not feel safe around other people. So we may know on one hand that being cared for and loved and supported by others brings us to the best state. But if you don't trust other people, you get stuck, right? And it's more of that stuck. feeling. So SSP is really a fascinating tool because they've created music, like a type of music or listening therapy where they integrate tones that are similar to the human voice in a calming way. So when you listen to SSP, it just sounds like music, but integrated into that music Like are like the. calming tones of a human body. And so while you listen, you are getting that co-regulation through the music and you can bring down your nervous system in that way. And so for clients, it works really well because you just listen for a little bit. It's just like listening to music, but what your nervous system is hearing is calm, co-regulation, and relaxation. And it brings you down to a place of calm without having to, you know, take five yoga classes and do mindfulness and do all the things.
Speaker #0
Is this something that people can find online or this has to go through a professional?
Speaker #1
So there are different ways to access SSP. So we'll always start in the beginning with a professional. And that's really because we want to make sure that you're a good candidate, which is pretty much, you know, most people are. But also because sometimes when you're going through SSP. And you start noticing that your body is changing, that you're feeling calm. It can also allow things to surface that you may have experienced in the past and you may have buried.
Speaker #0
So,
Speaker #1
you know, going through the process with a therapist, either, you know, that you can reach out to if you're struggling or to have a therapist in a room to really help you process as you go along can be really ideal. But there's definitely a lot of ways that clients use SSP without the therapist in the room. Things like listening to music and then journaling is a really great option. Doing something artistic or taking a walk afterwards. So that allows the calmness, that calm state that you get out of it to integrate slowly into your life. And you're not just going to the next thing and the next thing. It's that integration as well.
Speaker #0
Earlier, you talked about co-regulating and environments that make you feel safe in particularly people. And I understand that there are people who are in toxic relationships, whether it is romantic or, you know, family system. For people who can not leave. at this moment for different reasons, how can they feel some type of safety and help themselves to heal a bit?
Speaker #1
I think that's a great question. You know, when I work with clients who are in, whether it's a violent relationship or they're living in a home where they are unsafe. And unsafe can be different things, right? Because it's not just that it could be physically unsafe. It can be where there's emotional abuse, financial abuse, can be a variety of reasons that people are unsafe. What we'd want to do first is to create a basic safety plan. And that's really looking at the practical aspects of safety before we jump into looking at safety in the body. And so that would be things like, what's your exit strategy? Let's say with your neighbor, whether it's cash or an extra cell phone or clothing, kind of having that go bag so that if you need to leave, that you can do that. You will talk with someone like me about what may be triggering events. So if you're in an abusive relationship, you may have ways to know when there's higher risk times. And also even things such as staying away from the kitchen or from bathrooms, because those are more dangerous areas if there's physical abuse going on. So, you know, we always want to start with just bottom line, what can we do to get to safety? If the person is ready to leave that relationship, then, you know, always want to support them with a step-by-step plan. But going back to what you said earlier. about honoring ourselves and our bodies. I always feel like it's never my job as the therapist to say, you need to leave. More it's like, okay, let's talk about what it is that you choose for yourself and then work together to create the safest space that we possibly can. And then when clients have left that unhealthy dynamic, whether it's a family or a partner, then we can really work on the real. healing. And that can be, again, sort of working on the practical side, which can be establishing your own bank account and your own place to live, and then working through the body and learning to relax and to trust. Because we often lose trust in ourselves.
Speaker #0
Right. Do you know who Taylor Frankie Paul is?
Speaker #1
No. Tell.
Speaker #0
So she was the bachelorette for last year. She had a show called The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. So the reason I brought her up is because I had a conversation with a therapist about she was in a toxic, abusive relationship. And then, you know, she got out and she repeated the pattern a little bit. And we were just talking about what you choose as a life for yourself. Sometimes it is really hard to choose a better life because to a certain degree, we're so used to it and we're looking for it. And sometimes our body takes us to those circumstances. You know. there is a familiarity to it. So how would you help people to make a different choice?
Speaker #1
Absolutely. I always will start with my, you know, experience going back to my first job working with trauma survivors. I was working as a victim advocate for people who were needing protective orders, leaving abusive relationships. I worked there and I also worked in domestic violence shelter. And what I learned is that it takes on average seven attempts for someone to leave an abusive relationship. And so working, for example, in a shelter environment where people would come, you know, when they needed a confidential safe space from physical violence, is that we would have clients that we would feel that. okay, we see them, they're safe, we're offering all of these amazing support, therapy and options and, you know, childcare and help with finding housing and a job. And they would return right back and return right back. And it's definitely not an indication of the person's decision-making capacity or intelligence, but it's really about the power and the control that exists in abusive dynamics. So that person who is the abuser can really sink their teeth in and they can make the person who's the survivor feel like they have no ability to live independently. It really wears down your sense of self to that point so much that, you know, the concept of leaving that relationship becomes so foreign and so scary that even with support, it's hard to overcome. And there's also, you know, the other pieces of negative self-worth about stigma, embarrassment, and then the practicality of life is expensive here, right? If you are in an abusive relationship or you may have been isolated from your family or support system, maybe you don't have great income. All of these things are limiting factors and they become this big sort of swell of reasons why. often staying is easier than leaving.
Speaker #0
You said it averagely take people seven tries to eventually walk away. Is there like a faster route? Is there like a pill we can take and just like, just, you know, overcome a lot of the conditioning?
Speaker #1
And so what we look for is to create protective factors. So protective factors will help people either not return immediately or not return over time or not jump from one toxic relationship to the next. We see that as well. And protective factors are things like having a therapist, having connections in the community, you know, taking a class, right, working, making friends, growing a support system. Anything that you can do that's going to create a positive environment and a safety net for yourself starts to be a protective factor that's sort of in between you as the survivor and the abuser. So the more protective factors that we can put in the middle there, the more likely this person will be to avoid returning time and time again. You know, and the other thing is, too, is I think if people are able to cut ties and cut ties, you know, permanently.
Speaker #0
I would say like if someone has children in common with their ex or their abuser, then they're going to have to interact. And so that trigger that we talk about for trauma survivors, they may be seeing that trigger so much more often than someone that's able to walk away from a relationship and there's nothing to share. There's still plenty to internally process. So it's definitely so hard, but they're not necessarily facing the same number of. triggers that others may face. So there's challenges in different ways.
Speaker #1
Got it. What is a common misbelief that you have seen on social media, online, that you're like, I don't really think this is how real therapy works, but then a lot of people believe?
Speaker #0
I think that one of the things that I see, especially working in the space for trauma, is that People think that their experience is not bad enough or that they are not deserving of having a therapeutic space or that always that sentiment of, well, other people have it worse. And so people can, in that way, really diminish their own experience and feel like, again, it kind of goes back to this combination of self-worth. They may be accustomed to living in fight or flight for so long that that's normal, right? Normal for them.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
So reaching out for help can be really challenging. And then, you know, even in the middle of sessions, even sessions, 10 sessions, 15 sessions in, I may still have to kind of draw my clients forward and say, you know, what you went through is real. This really is hard. This is not a you thing. not only that you're deserving of support and this is your space and that yes that really is trauma right I do that a lot with my clients I say that's real that really is trauma you do deserve to be here so that's really I think where is a little bit of a barrier and maybe a misconception is if you're thinking is this bad enough it's like yeah most of the time if you're thinking that thought do this. Not to mention that It doesn't have to be a 10 out of 10 horrible, miserable experience to ask for something.
Speaker #1
I do agree with that. And I used to struggle with that. I always think that there are people who are like, you know, went through war and like, you know, their experience is way worse. And I just remember learning that, like you said, validating your own experience first. But also my previous therapist said, it also depends on that person's nervous system. Something that... you went through might not be as triggering for them, but there's something that they went through might not be as triggering for you, but for them, it's like the end of the world. So I think it just also have this empathy to understand, like, we're built differently and we have different experiences.
Speaker #0
I like to tell clients as well that in a way that we are wired to go through trauma. It's like when you are driving down the interstate and you see a car accident, right? Most of us have that ability to witness that and to keep going, right? We go, how terrible. And then maybe we see an ambulance and we can keep driving and going on with our day, right? And that's us kind of witnessing a traumatic event and still being able to go through it because we're wired that way. But there's levels of severity. There's a big distinction between something like that and living in an abusive relationship, of course. But, you know, people who have experienced trauma, for example, you know, it can sort of become a little bit of a superpower because you learn to have a higher tolerance, a higher threshold, and which you can, in the right circumstance, really use to help you navigate tough situations. And so often if you put, I'd say like a room full of trauma therapists together, you're going to see a lot of trauma survivors in the room because of understanding, but also because of the ability to hold space for that without being necessarily triggered because of some of that tolerance being a little bit higher.
Speaker #1
Thank you, Sarah. If people want to work with you, how can they best find you?
Speaker #0
You can easily access my website, which is www. sarahsanfordtherapy.com and just, you know, click on the consultation button. That just gives clients an ability to chat with me for about 15 minutes and make sure that I would be the right therapist for them.
Speaker #1
That's awesome. I'll make sure to link all your bio and social media down below in the description. Thank you again, Sarah. We hope to have you back onto the show very soon. Thank you so much for being here with me today on The Zen Podcast. If this episode resonated with you, make sure you're subscribed and leave a comment with your biggest takeaway. That's how we grow this community and get these conversations in front of more people who need them. And if somebody came to mind while you're listening, please do make sure to send this episode to them. You can also find me on TikTok, Instagram, YouTube, Apple Podcasts, and Spotify. All linked below. Until next time, stay sharp. stay intentional and be good.

Chapters

Introduction and Trigger Warning

0sec

Understanding Trauma and the Nervous System

12sec

Introducing Sarah Semford and Her Work

53sec

Exploring Anxiety and Hypervigilance

1min

The Autonomic Nervous System Explained

3min

Body Scanning and Muscle Release Techniques

5min

Talk Therapy vs. Somatic Work

7min

The Non-Linear Healing Process

10min

Mindfulness Practices and Positive Affirmations

12min

The Safe and Sound Protocol Explained

17min

Creating Safety in Toxic Relationships

21min

Protective Factors for Leaving Abusive Relationships

26min

Common Misbeliefs About Therapy

30min

Conclusion and Resources

34min