Navigating Grief: Mindfulness, Healing, and Emotional Wellness with Grief Therapist Corinne Kneis | The Zhen Podcast

Description

What if the pain of grief could be transformed into a pathway for healing and personal growth? Join Zhen as she dives deep into the complexities of grief with expert grief therapist Corinne Kneis, who sheds light on how this natural human response profoundly impacts our emotional health. Grief is not just about losing a loved one; it encompasses the loss of identity, the death of cherished pets, and even the invisible losses we carry within us. Throughout this enlightening conversation, Corinne shares her expertise in trauma and EMDR therapy, emphasizing that grief is a multifaceted experience that intertwines cognitive, emotional, and physiological responses.

As we navigate the intricate landscape of grief, the importance of mindfulness becomes clear. Corinne highlights how practicing mindfulness can serve as a powerful tool for emotional regulation, allowing individuals to process their grief more effectively. The episode also addresses how societal pressures often stifle our ability to grieve openly, making self-compassion and emotional intelligence crucial in the healing journey. Zhen and Corinne explore the feelings of regret that frequently accompany grief, offering listeners valuable insights into how to honor lost connections while also moving forward with their lives.

Grief is not a linear journey; it requires patience, understanding, and a willingness to embrace the complexities of our emotions. Through practical advice and relatable anecdotes, this episode serves as a guide for listeners on how to navigate their own grief and support others in their grieving process. Whether you're dealing with anxiety, depression, or the aftermath of trauma, the insights shared in this episode can significantly enhance your mental health and wellness journey.

Discover how to rewire your brain to foster healing, cultivate self-love, and embrace personal growth amidst the challenges of grief. From boundary setting in relationships to understanding attachment theory, Zhen and Corinne offer a wealth of knowledge that can help you build confidence and motivation as you confront the shadows of your past. This episode is not just about grief; it's about finding purpose and happiness in the face of loss, making it a must-listen for anyone seeking to improve their emotional well-being.

Connect with Corinne Kneis:

https://flourishtherapyservices.com/

https://www.instagram.com/flourishpsychotherapy/?hl=en

https://www.linkedin.com/in/corinnekneis/

Tune in to The Zhen Podcast for a transformative conversation that will inspire you to embrace your grief as a catalyst for healing and self-discovery. Whether you're on a journey of healing after heartbreak or seeking to understand the nuances of grief and loss, this episode promises to be a beacon of hope and a source of practical wisdom.

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Transcription

Speaker #0
When I think about what helps the most, like I would say my practice for myself and my clients is very grounded in mindfulness, that mindfulness kind of sets the stage for this healing. And that can be a daily meditation practice or just mindfulness of experience and the emotions that are here. And I find that is really effective in helping people be with what is.
Speaker #1
Welcome back to the show, everybody. Today, we have the amazing Corinne Neese joining us. She is a grief therapist, and she has done so many things in her career, helping people processing their emotions. So I'm going to have you, Corinne, to introduce yourself and let the audience know what you do.
Speaker #0
Yes, well, I'm so glad to be here. Thank you for having me. So I am a grief therapist. I currently reside in Philadelphia, where I work at the University of Pennsylvania as an assistant instructor in positive psychology. And I also have a private practice where I specialize in grief, trauma and EMDR therapy. I am moving soon to Annapolis, so I will be an Annapolis based therapist in the near future. I also provide wellness workshops for individuals in veterinary and health care. facilities to support their well-being, mindfulness, and self-compassion. And that is me.
Speaker #1
I love it. Grief is something a lot of people experience, but they don't talk about it. And when I think of grief, it usually is related to a loss of someone or something. And I think that there's a lot of books and materials out there that help people. to process emotions, but grief is something that I have not read a lot of books about. And obviously I can Google the definition myself, but I'd like to hear from you, like how would you define grief?
Speaker #0
Yeah. So when I think about grief, that it is just our natural human response to loss. And of course, loss can be of any kind, like this can be when someone dies, but it also can be the loss of an identity. The loss of a person that is no longer present, but is still alive. The loss of a pet. That like this can take many forms. And then the response to it is multifaceted. That we have a cognitive response, an emotional response, and then a physiological, so a body response. And often my clients will describe it as like this heaviness, usually like heaviness in the chest. and a pit in the stomach, often trying to understand this new reality.
Speaker #1
That makes sense. I definitely feel like I have processed grief before, but mainly from a loss of identity. And I think that it's really hard to pinpoint how that felt because I also think there's just a lot of a mixture of feelings, right? There's like regrets, there's sadness, there's hope, and there is longing. And then I think for me, Whenever I grieve, I personally like to be alone. I don't know if it's for the better or worse. According to my therapist, I should be able to be more in touch with the world and be able to let the help and the love in to my own little isolated world. When people are going through grief, as somebody watching on the sideline, how can other people support? this individual who's going through such heavy emotions.
Speaker #0
So that can be complicated, especially if people haven't directly experienced grief in a really strong way. I often think that our capacity to help others in their grief is directly related to our own comfort with grief. So it takes kind of a lot of internal work of being able to sit with the realities of this existence that everything ends and that loss is an inevitable and natural part of the human experience. But that's really scary to a lot of us. And what is most helpful is often not trying to problem solve or fix or tell them what they should do. It's just being present to them and validating that what they're going through is hard.
Speaker #1
Absolutely. And I... Personally, I have had experiences where when somebody else is going through grief, like I don't really know the right wording to say to them. I don't really know if I should say like, I'm sorry for your loss, or should I just completely ignore it? I give you an example, like the reason why it's so confusing to me how I can support other people from the sideline. Because if I say I'm so sorry about everything we were going through, I feel like I'm reminding them what happened. And then they have to relive that. They might be having a temporary good day. And all of a sudden, I said something and now they're going back to how they felt maybe the day before or even an hour before. And then there's a part where he's like, okay, just act like nothing's happening. back to normal. But then like, I felt like I'm not validating them. I don't know what they need. And then it's really hard to like ask them, what do you need?
Speaker #0
Yeah, well, I think you just hit the nail on the head of communicating that that question of like, what would help you? Sometimes people aren't going to know exactly what that is, but they can give you an idea. But I think it is interesting that a lot of us maybe project our own discomfort with their grief so that like if I were to say this, that I'm upsetting them. But a lot of times in grief, like it's there anyways. It's not it's not like they're having this wonderful, amazing day and the grief isn't there. It's like the grief is always present and we like to think of it as growing around the grief. So it's not that it's something that they're not probably acutely aware of in that moment anyways. But I do think you really hit the nail on the head with asking them, like, what is going to be supportive to them? Do they want to talk about it? And really just coming from a compassionate and curious place.
Speaker #1
Speaking of curious, I'm curious how do we, when we're processing grief, like, should we process different emotions individually? For example, when I'm processing grief. I kind of separate like the facts from regrets or the reality versus what could have happened. And I think that gives me a sense of sanity and know that the universe have always have a plan. Maybe everything I think would go well might not be the best outcome for me. And this is probably for the better. But when I look back, people, not people, I guess me, would always have some sort of regrets. Is the path not traveled really that much better? Is regrets part of the griefing process? What's the relationship between the two?
Speaker #0
Yeah, well, I would say, well, to the first question about like experiencing the emotions kind of separately, that that's more of a model that is very important, like Kubler-Ross's model, where it breaks it down into these specific emotions like denial, anger, bargaining. acceptance or depression acceptance when we kind of have a more of a task-oriented approach now to grief processing, that it's not that clean, this is messy. And regret is very frequently woven into all of these other emotional experiences that we have during grief. So I would say that guilt and then a step further, regret is very much connected to grief because grief often leads us to reflect on. our experiences, our relationships. And then there's often the wish of, you know, I wish I said this. I wish they knew how much I cared. I wish I resolved this issue that we had. And it kind of gives you that bird's eye view of your life and relationships.
Speaker #1
Right. So I struggle with this. I think in my life, there are just so many crossroads. And I wondered. To this day, if I made a different choice back then, where would I be? I don't necessarily think my life would be significantly better, but I'm curious. And I think there's always like a sense of self-judgment. And I'll go so far to say a sense of self-disappointment. And I feel that I was supposed to know better, but then I didn't really do better. But then like... I talked to an expert they're like well you can't really say that because now you're looking at your past from your current level of consciousness back then you probably just did the best you could and I truly believe that I think everyone is doing the best they can and then we look back and we're like okay well I could have done better with way more information yeah way more 2020 thousand percent right and just but I would also say like Everybody, almost everybody that I talk to. No matter the good days or bad days, they would also always say those were the days, right? Like there is also like a appreciation looking back. So can we avoid regrets and just accept the reality is just the reality? And rather than spending time thinking about what could have happened, we just kind of live. Is that like a possible, is that something we can train ourselves to do?
Speaker #0
I would say that it is a active practice. I think it's kind of twofold that there's the more proactive practice of, well, what can I do now as to not experience regret in the future? So how can I make choices or communicate or do what it is that's going to lead to less experiences that. could cause regret. But then the other part of reckoning with the past. And a lot of what I do with my clients is self-compassion practices of kind of what you're talking about, like hindsight's 2020. But like we weren't that person at that time. It was a younger part of me. It was a more naive part. And and I can understand how they made the choices they did or took the path. they did because they were doing the best they could.
Speaker #1
Right. Would you say like, by asking that question, I'm bypassing my emotions? Meaning, would you say to try to avoid regrets is truly not to live to the fullest because I'm still trying to avoid the negative parts of life? I mean, maybe not negative, but like more heavier part of it.
Speaker #0
Yeah, I think it's interesting because I think regret is very subjective. And I think it has a lot to do with more of our perception of what's happened compared to what has actually happened. So I think there's a I think it's impossible to move through life without anything that could be regrettable. But I'm not sure if it would. I don't know if it's bypassing. I'm not sure.
Speaker #1
I think grief is a topic that's very heavy for me. I'm in my 30s. And at this age, you sort of think about losing family members. Because, you know, my dad is in his 80s. And my mom is like, not 60 yet. But, you know, they're coming of age where you start to think about they might get ill. They might leave one day. So I don't think about it. And I feel like maybe at a time when this happens, I'll be more equipped to process it. But I also know that people... tend to not process grief and they're in the denial part for a very long time. From your experiences working with your clients, what do you think block people from processing grief deeply?
Speaker #0
Yeah, I would say that like often it is the fear of feeling that depth of pain. And then a lot of times people feeling like, if I were to actually feel that, I don't know if I could come back. from this or I would just completely fall apart if I allowed that. And also we live in a society that has this pressure to function of like, you know, we have to do our job, we have to go to work. And I'll often joke in my grief groups that I run that I'll say like there should be like a grief leave, like that everyone should have grief leave and have space to be able to process and have the ability to move through it. So I would say those are the top two. And then maybe the third being a lot of people fear forgetting of the person. That if they were to actually feel this, grieve this, move through this, then like it's some kind of betrayal of if it's a loss by death.
Speaker #1
Do we have to process grief then? Because I guess people process emotions differently. Some people need like a chunk of time and just really. get to it. And then some people use destructions to not think about it, but I feel like their body is probably still processing it. But at the end of the day, can we avoid processing grief and then just let time heal? Or this has to be an active act that we need to do in order to not have those emotional trauma stuck in our body?
Speaker #0
Yeah, I would say that Time does not heal all wounds, right? Like I know we hear that, but it doesn't necessarily have to be as active as you're suggesting that if we are open to it, grief can often happen. So there can be the intentional part of like, I'm going to listen to this song and let myself feel through this and create a little shrine and honor the person each day. But that it also, if we're open to it, that the emotions will move through us at their own pace. And with the distractions or people that tend to distract, I don't think that all distraction is bad. I like the saying of micro joys help us survive macro grief. So that if some of these, say, distractions or other things in life are bringing you a sense of joy or comfort or connection, that's okay. We can't live in it all the time. It can't be this constant heaviness. So we need to balance it out of the feeling, the heaviness, but also the joy, the gratitude, the life that keeps. on happening.
Speaker #1
That makes sense. And earlier you said some people avoid grieving is because they have this fear of forgetting. What would you say to your clients and people who work with you? How do you, how do we not forget? How do we honor that part of our life or that person without forgetting, but also allow us to like move on?
Speaker #0
Yeah. And that's one of the main tasks that we talk about in the grief literature is the maintaining connection. That just because this person isn't here, it doesn't mean that the love is gone or that the connection is gone. Like love is, in my opinion, eternal. Love is always with us. And if this person or, say, experience that you lost carries love, then that's still here.
Speaker #1
Quick side note, I might or might not leave this in the podcast. Do you believe in the afterlife?
Speaker #0
I love this question.
Speaker #1
I'm going to leave it in, by the way, then. Yeah,
Speaker #0
absolutely. This is like, like, I'd say like a part time philosopher, full time psychologist, therapist. So I do not believe in a specific afterlife. I was raised Catholic. So when I was a little kid, I believed in heaven and hell. And my grandmother was actually a nun, which is fascinating, as I've told you that. So over time, I really developed more of an agnostic attitude and more of a spiritual sense that integrating spirituality, science, and agnosticism. So like the intersection of those that I don't think matter is created or destroyed so that when someone dies, that their essence, their energy is still somewhere, but I can't exactly pinpoint where that is. So I like to think of it in nature, like I think of a wave or a sunset or that their energy is just back into the universe.
Speaker #1
Right. And I'm going to try to make a philosophical, like, I don't, I don't know if this is even related, but when you were talking, I thought about people ask questions like if a tree falls in the forest and no one's there to observe, did a tree, when it falls, did tree make a sound? And some people say it did just because no one's there to observe or validate it. it doesn't mean it didn't happen. But some people say, no, it didn't because there's no evidence, right? And I think that to relate it back to when somebody is no longer here with us, are their energies still around? I think it does come down to your individual beliefs. And I think a lot of time, those beliefs are part of the tools to help us to move on. My grandfather passed away, I want to say four years now. And I remember I was driving and I saw this little spider in my car forming a web. And I was driving pretty fast. I mean, not that fast, okay, for the record. But like, I was like on the freeway, you know? So what I'm trying to say is with my windows down, I don't really think that it's a possibility. Like, it's not like I parked in the forest and that happened. I was like literally driving on the freeway. With my windows down and this, I just saw a spider literally in front of me and started forming a web. And I was like, that's a grandpa, right? And I don't know if it's true. Who knows? But I think that helped me to give me a sense of like knowing that like almost like he's there with me, even though when he passed away, I wasn't there with him physically. So I think that like those small moments, however we interpret them, can be a bridge for us to be like, maybe we're not alone. And maybe they're still here with us.
Speaker #0
Yes. And thank you for sharing that. And it's so true that I often see like in my own experience and with my clients that these like little signs or things that help us feel that connection to them, that they're not gone. I recently had a similar experience where my niece, who is two years old, it was on the anniversary of my aunt's death that... My niece has never met this aunt, and she just started saying her nickname that we used to call her, which was Aunt Foofy. And she just kept saying, Foofy, And we were like, Meredith, what is going on? So now my whole family is like, wow, maybe Foofy was trying to come and be with us. And I think that, of course, we can have like a scientific explanation or, you know, we could try to. to disprove it. My younger atheistic self would have done that. But now, I think it can be really healing to believe or to have a belief in something. It doesn't really matter what.
Speaker #1
I agree with you. And I will leave on this note where I would say some people believe in science, some people believe in spirituality, some people believe in religion. Whatever you believe is truly for me like our way of dealing with the world because you need something to help you make sense of life. So whatever that you believe, like if you like it, I love it. My biggest thing, even with this podcast is like, find a thing that like really works for you so that you can move forward. Because it is hard when you don't have the people, the tool, the community to help you move forward. Then you're You are literally... alone and that has such like damaging effect on a person's emotional health and mental health but so I I think I do believe in afterlife just because I really hope this is not the end I was like if I do this much work in this lifetime I'm gonna come back so wise
Speaker #0
I'm gonna be maybe some reincarnation right yeah
Speaker #1
I'll come back and just start teaching people when I'm like one year old.
Speaker #0
Yes.
Speaker #1
But let's also talk about self-acceptance. I think that previous, before we jump on this interview, we talked about anxiety and we also kind of like talked about how regrets and grief could be blockers for our own self-acceptance. Mainly for me, I would say regrets is what make me not accept myself. A hundred percent, because like I mentioned before, I felt like I knew better and all those things, even though life is great, but I still have those thoughts, right? And I also think that anxiety and regrets kind of gaslight me a lot. Like I'll create a scenario that never have happened in my head and losing touch with the actuality, what's happening right now. I live in my head. of a world that I created, whether it's from what I should have done, could have done, or any mistakes I made. And it starts subconsciously, actually consciously punishing myself over and over again. And I wonder why I cannot move on. And then whenever I go get drinks with friends, and I was just like, I'm so sad. And they're like, bro, your life is so good. Like, what's, what's up? You know? And I feel like I can't walk away from this, like, set. because I don't accept who I am. Well, I guess I do, but like not to 100% who I am today.
Speaker #0
Does, right? Like, I mean, maybe the Buddha, but I think that's natural. And what I'm hearing in this is like often when we feel very tied to the regret or tied to our role in the regret or things that have happened. that it can be paralyzing.
Speaker #1
Truer words have never been said. Paralyzing is definitely so important. It's almost like, yeah, you can't, you're just like there. You're just stuck there. What I guess even just telling you this is a sign of lack of self-acceptance because I, not I should, but like, I think that like, if just... giving myself some grace and understanding that everything I've been doing is just part of being human. Maybe life could have been much lighter.
Speaker #0
Yes. And I think I think you're definitely on point there. Like it reminds me of a like a what is it a Chinese finger trap where like the harder that you pull more that it constricts. So then so then when you actually let go and kind of move toward that, it then allows you to to release from that. And and it's sounding like that might might be what's what's happening.
Speaker #1
In your line of work, do you find people who are processing a lot of heavy emotions also fall into the pattern of lack of self-acceptance?
Speaker #0
I would say most people have that experience and of course at different levels, but as they're working through hard emotions, a lot of people and a lot of it also can be culturally based. Family based, you know, of course, everything that goes into how they learn to exist in the world of then shaming themselves for having a certain big emotion or experience. And then that lack of acceptance of being human then is the what we call the secondary suffering. So right there have their primary suffering of, you know, going through, say, grief or another really challenging experience. And then the secondary suffering of... Now I am upset with myself and feeling regret and shame and embarrassment. And because I am experiencing this.
Speaker #1
Are there research on the topic of secondary suffering? I wonder why do we do this? I almost wonder if this is like a biological thing where we're trying to not do it again. So we like remember it.
Speaker #0
Yeah, well, yeah, absolutely. So I can definitely look into. research specifically on, I'm not sure the concept of secondary suffering. I'll have to look into researchers that maybe focus specifically on that. But like, I like to think about what are we actually trying to do for ourselves? And usually the goal is I don't want to repeat this. So then if I, you know, shame myself or, you know, put a magnifying glass on this, then I won't do this again and I'll be better. actually, like, as we've talked about, that's paralyzing. Like, shame is not a good motivator, maybe in the short term, but it is not sustainable.
Speaker #1
What is a good motivator?
Speaker #0
Yeah, I would say I have a very humanistic psychology perspective. And like, like you're talking about self-acceptance, it makes me think of the quote by Carl Rogers, that like, once I accept myself fully as I am, only then I can change. And I you think to get to that place that for me, the key to that is self-compassion and recognizing our own common humanity, right? Like treating ourselves like we would someone else. We give them grace. Why don't we give ourselves grace?
Speaker #1
Do you think it's because we think we're actually better than other people?
Speaker #0
That's an interesting question. Sometimes I think that it depends on the person. But I also think that that is often related to upbringing or maybe pressure from parents or caregivers that put the pressure on a child to be better, to be the best. And then that becomes internalized of I am better or I need to be better or I need to prove that I am the best.
Speaker #1
That makes sense. And I'm not saying like I'm better than anybody. I'm just saying like, I wonder we have such high expectations on ourselves because we believe that our capability, our potential could be higher. It does not necessarily always have to be a comparison to other people. It could just be like a comparison towards ourselves. And I think that I believe in this, but also I feel it could be a little toxic, is that you're your biggest enemy or the only person you should compete with is yourself. I totally understand where this is coming from and I'm here for it. But sometimes it can be a little exhausting because Even to this day, whenever I talked about, I'm just like, I'm so over it. Like, I don't want to heal anymore. I don't want to talk about it. I don't want to make this my whole identity. And then like one of my therapists, I have three therapists. And then so one of them would be like, it never ends. I was like, please, I didn't ask for your opinion. Okay. That was me telling you, like, you don't need to say anything. But it's true. Like, I mean, I have started to accept the fact that, you know, all jokes aside, like, I know that like, there are going to be things come up in the future that.
Speaker #0
I just have to process it. But I think it's just a matter of using the right tools, talking to the right person, whether it's a therapist or whoever helps you to help you get there and feel the peace. And I think for me, over time, I realized peace is the goal that I'm trying to reach. Well, peace and safety. I think feeling, you know, supported, right? And I think when a person going through some heavy emotions like grieving, like it's such a isolating experience. And because, like I said, like I have not, I lost my grandpa, but I wasn't, this is controversial. I don't think I was, I think I was sad, but I wasn't really devastated. We didn't, we weren't that close. But I can imagine, you know, some people go through a really heavy grieving process. What? what are some of the tools that they can use to help ease the pain a little bit?
Speaker #1
Yeah. And also, I would say that that's a very normal experience with your grandfather, that there is no right way to respond. And of course, grief is complex. If we're not as close to someone or there's complex dynamics, that's normal. And then also, when I think about what helps the most, I would say my practice. for myself and my clients is very grounded in mindfulness, that mindfulness kind of sets the stage for this healing. And that can be a daily meditation practice or just mindfulness of experience and the emotions that are here. And I find that is really effective in helping people be with what is. And the nature of existence is things are going to be painful, things are going to be beautiful. Loss is inevitable. Love is always present. So I think mindfulness and then like another way of integrating or integrating self-compassion into mindfulness of once we're more mindful of what is happening, then we can take the step to how am I communicating with myself? And am I communicating with myself in a way that I would to a beloved friend or family member?
Speaker #0
I think that's so important. I actually just had a conversation with myself this morning and I was like, I don't want to feel I am keep like lying and gaslighting myself. Right. And I felt like this morning before we start this interview, I draw the boundary with myself and I was like, enough, dude. Like no more overthinking. It's not, it's not funny anymore. Like this has been so stressful. I have to buy extra Reynolds serum for my face. Now I'm like start getting gray hair, which I was like, oh my God, this is aging.
Speaker #1
Yeah, it's happening. That's me too.
Speaker #0
Right. This is such a heavy topic and a topic I don't necessarily know a lot about, but you have educated me and I'm sure the listeners have taken so many useful information, advice from you before we end. the interview, if people want to work with you, how could they find you?
Speaker #1
Yes. So I'm available for individual therapy in Pennsylvania and Maryland. So that would be virtual care. And then soon within a month or so, I'll be in Annapolis, Maryland for anyone wanting individual services in person. And I also offer grief groups, virtual and in person, primarily for young adults. So they can reach out to me through my website, contact form or email. And I have free consultations if they'd like to see if we're a good fit.
Speaker #0
That's awesome. I'll make sure to link your website in the bio. Thank you again. Really appreciate you. And we hope you come back on the show very soon. And we will dive into more grief, regrets related topics.
Speaker #1
Yeah, so I would love to. And thank you so much for having me.
Speaker #0
Thank you so much for being here with me today on the Zen Podcast. If this episode resonated with you, make sure you're subscribed and leave a comment with your biggest takeaway. That's how we grow this community and get these conversations in front of more people who need them. And if somebody came to mind while you're listening, please do make sure to send this episode to them. You can also find me on TikTok, Instagram, YouTube, Apple Podcasts, and Spotify. All linked below. Until next time, stay sharp. stay intentional and be good.

About The Zhen Podcast

You’re listening to The Zhen Podcast - a show focused on mental health, physical health, relationship health, and the daily practices that support real, lasting change. Each episode features thoughtful conversations with guests who share real-life experiences — from their own journeys to the work they’ve done with clients - offering practical examples of healing, learning, and growth. We explore what actually helps people move forward, whether that comes from science, health, psychology, spirituality, or simple habits that make a meaningful difference. The goal is clarity, self-awareness, and tools you can apply to your own life — now let's begin the conversation Disclaimer: "The information provided in this Podcast Channel (the "Channel") does not, and is not intended to, constitute professional advice; instead, all information, content, and materials available on this Channel are for general informational purposes only. This Channel contains information provided by interviewees and/or links to other third-party websites. Such links are only for the convenience of the reader, user or browser. The views expressed at, or through, this site are those of the individual interviewees in their individual capacities only – not those of the Channel. All liability with respect to actions taken or not taken based on the contents of this Channel are hereby expressly disclaimed. The content on this posting is provided "as is;" no representations are made that the content is error-free."

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Description

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Transcription

Speaker #0
When I think about what helps the most, like I would say my practice for myself and my clients is very grounded in mindfulness, that mindfulness kind of sets the stage for this healing. And that can be a daily meditation practice or just mindfulness of experience and the emotions that are here. And I find that is really effective in helping people be with what is.
Speaker #1
Welcome back to the show, everybody. Today, we have the amazing Corinne Neese joining us. She is a grief therapist, and she has done so many things in her career, helping people processing their emotions. So I'm going to have you, Corinne, to introduce yourself and let the audience know what you do.
Speaker #0
Yes, well, I'm so glad to be here. Thank you for having me. So I am a grief therapist. I currently reside in Philadelphia, where I work at the University of Pennsylvania as an assistant instructor in positive psychology. And I also have a private practice where I specialize in grief, trauma and EMDR therapy. I am moving soon to Annapolis, so I will be an Annapolis based therapist in the near future. I also provide wellness workshops for individuals in veterinary and health care. facilities to support their well-being, mindfulness, and self-compassion. And that is me.
Speaker #1
I love it. Grief is something a lot of people experience, but they don't talk about it. And when I think of grief, it usually is related to a loss of someone or something. And I think that there's a lot of books and materials out there that help people. to process emotions, but grief is something that I have not read a lot of books about. And obviously I can Google the definition myself, but I'd like to hear from you, like how would you define grief?
Speaker #0
Yeah. So when I think about grief, that it is just our natural human response to loss. And of course, loss can be of any kind, like this can be when someone dies, but it also can be the loss of an identity. The loss of a person that is no longer present, but is still alive. The loss of a pet. That like this can take many forms. And then the response to it is multifaceted. That we have a cognitive response, an emotional response, and then a physiological, so a body response. And often my clients will describe it as like this heaviness, usually like heaviness in the chest. and a pit in the stomach, often trying to understand this new reality.
Speaker #1
That makes sense. I definitely feel like I have processed grief before, but mainly from a loss of identity. And I think that it's really hard to pinpoint how that felt because I also think there's just a lot of a mixture of feelings, right? There's like regrets, there's sadness, there's hope, and there is longing. And then I think for me, Whenever I grieve, I personally like to be alone. I don't know if it's for the better or worse. According to my therapist, I should be able to be more in touch with the world and be able to let the help and the love in to my own little isolated world. When people are going through grief, as somebody watching on the sideline, how can other people support? this individual who's going through such heavy emotions.
Speaker #0
So that can be complicated, especially if people haven't directly experienced grief in a really strong way. I often think that our capacity to help others in their grief is directly related to our own comfort with grief. So it takes kind of a lot of internal work of being able to sit with the realities of this existence that everything ends and that loss is an inevitable and natural part of the human experience. But that's really scary to a lot of us. And what is most helpful is often not trying to problem solve or fix or tell them what they should do. It's just being present to them and validating that what they're going through is hard.
Speaker #1
Absolutely. And I... Personally, I have had experiences where when somebody else is going through grief, like I don't really know the right wording to say to them. I don't really know if I should say like, I'm sorry for your loss, or should I just completely ignore it? I give you an example, like the reason why it's so confusing to me how I can support other people from the sideline. Because if I say I'm so sorry about everything we were going through, I feel like I'm reminding them what happened. And then they have to relive that. They might be having a temporary good day. And all of a sudden, I said something and now they're going back to how they felt maybe the day before or even an hour before. And then there's a part where he's like, okay, just act like nothing's happening. back to normal. But then like, I felt like I'm not validating them. I don't know what they need. And then it's really hard to like ask them, what do you need?
Speaker #0
Yeah, well, I think you just hit the nail on the head of communicating that that question of like, what would help you? Sometimes people aren't going to know exactly what that is, but they can give you an idea. But I think it is interesting that a lot of us maybe project our own discomfort with their grief so that like if I were to say this, that I'm upsetting them. But a lot of times in grief, like it's there anyways. It's not it's not like they're having this wonderful, amazing day and the grief isn't there. It's like the grief is always present and we like to think of it as growing around the grief. So it's not that it's something that they're not probably acutely aware of in that moment anyways. But I do think you really hit the nail on the head with asking them, like, what is going to be supportive to them? Do they want to talk about it? And really just coming from a compassionate and curious place.
Speaker #1
Speaking of curious, I'm curious how do we, when we're processing grief, like, should we process different emotions individually? For example, when I'm processing grief. I kind of separate like the facts from regrets or the reality versus what could have happened. And I think that gives me a sense of sanity and know that the universe have always have a plan. Maybe everything I think would go well might not be the best outcome for me. And this is probably for the better. But when I look back, people, not people, I guess me, would always have some sort of regrets. Is the path not traveled really that much better? Is regrets part of the griefing process? What's the relationship between the two?
Speaker #0
Yeah, well, I would say, well, to the first question about like experiencing the emotions kind of separately, that that's more of a model that is very important, like Kubler-Ross's model, where it breaks it down into these specific emotions like denial, anger, bargaining. acceptance or depression acceptance when we kind of have a more of a task-oriented approach now to grief processing, that it's not that clean, this is messy. And regret is very frequently woven into all of these other emotional experiences that we have during grief. So I would say that guilt and then a step further, regret is very much connected to grief because grief often leads us to reflect on. our experiences, our relationships. And then there's often the wish of, you know, I wish I said this. I wish they knew how much I cared. I wish I resolved this issue that we had. And it kind of gives you that bird's eye view of your life and relationships.
Speaker #1
Right. So I struggle with this. I think in my life, there are just so many crossroads. And I wondered. To this day, if I made a different choice back then, where would I be? I don't necessarily think my life would be significantly better, but I'm curious. And I think there's always like a sense of self-judgment. And I'll go so far to say a sense of self-disappointment. And I feel that I was supposed to know better, but then I didn't really do better. But then like... I talked to an expert they're like well you can't really say that because now you're looking at your past from your current level of consciousness back then you probably just did the best you could and I truly believe that I think everyone is doing the best they can and then we look back and we're like okay well I could have done better with way more information yeah way more 2020 thousand percent right and just but I would also say like Everybody, almost everybody that I talk to. No matter the good days or bad days, they would also always say those were the days, right? Like there is also like a appreciation looking back. So can we avoid regrets and just accept the reality is just the reality? And rather than spending time thinking about what could have happened, we just kind of live. Is that like a possible, is that something we can train ourselves to do?
Speaker #0
I would say that it is a active practice. I think it's kind of twofold that there's the more proactive practice of, well, what can I do now as to not experience regret in the future? So how can I make choices or communicate or do what it is that's going to lead to less experiences that. could cause regret. But then the other part of reckoning with the past. And a lot of what I do with my clients is self-compassion practices of kind of what you're talking about, like hindsight's 2020. But like we weren't that person at that time. It was a younger part of me. It was a more naive part. And and I can understand how they made the choices they did or took the path. they did because they were doing the best they could.
Speaker #1
Right. Would you say like, by asking that question, I'm bypassing my emotions? Meaning, would you say to try to avoid regrets is truly not to live to the fullest because I'm still trying to avoid the negative parts of life? I mean, maybe not negative, but like more heavier part of it.
Speaker #0
Yeah, I think it's interesting because I think regret is very subjective. And I think it has a lot to do with more of our perception of what's happened compared to what has actually happened. So I think there's a I think it's impossible to move through life without anything that could be regrettable. But I'm not sure if it would. I don't know if it's bypassing. I'm not sure.
Speaker #1
I think grief is a topic that's very heavy for me. I'm in my 30s. And at this age, you sort of think about losing family members. Because, you know, my dad is in his 80s. And my mom is like, not 60 yet. But, you know, they're coming of age where you start to think about they might get ill. They might leave one day. So I don't think about it. And I feel like maybe at a time when this happens, I'll be more equipped to process it. But I also know that people... tend to not process grief and they're in the denial part for a very long time. From your experiences working with your clients, what do you think block people from processing grief deeply?
Speaker #0
Yeah, I would say that like often it is the fear of feeling that depth of pain. And then a lot of times people feeling like, if I were to actually feel that, I don't know if I could come back. from this or I would just completely fall apart if I allowed that. And also we live in a society that has this pressure to function of like, you know, we have to do our job, we have to go to work. And I'll often joke in my grief groups that I run that I'll say like there should be like a grief leave, like that everyone should have grief leave and have space to be able to process and have the ability to move through it. So I would say those are the top two. And then maybe the third being a lot of people fear forgetting of the person. That if they were to actually feel this, grieve this, move through this, then like it's some kind of betrayal of if it's a loss by death.
Speaker #1
Do we have to process grief then? Because I guess people process emotions differently. Some people need like a chunk of time and just really. get to it. And then some people use destructions to not think about it, but I feel like their body is probably still processing it. But at the end of the day, can we avoid processing grief and then just let time heal? Or this has to be an active act that we need to do in order to not have those emotional trauma stuck in our body?
Speaker #0
Yeah, I would say that Time does not heal all wounds, right? Like I know we hear that, but it doesn't necessarily have to be as active as you're suggesting that if we are open to it, grief can often happen. So there can be the intentional part of like, I'm going to listen to this song and let myself feel through this and create a little shrine and honor the person each day. But that it also, if we're open to it, that the emotions will move through us at their own pace. And with the distractions or people that tend to distract, I don't think that all distraction is bad. I like the saying of micro joys help us survive macro grief. So that if some of these, say, distractions or other things in life are bringing you a sense of joy or comfort or connection, that's okay. We can't live in it all the time. It can't be this constant heaviness. So we need to balance it out of the feeling, the heaviness, but also the joy, the gratitude, the life that keeps. on happening.
Speaker #1
That makes sense. And earlier you said some people avoid grieving is because they have this fear of forgetting. What would you say to your clients and people who work with you? How do you, how do we not forget? How do we honor that part of our life or that person without forgetting, but also allow us to like move on?
Speaker #0
Yeah. And that's one of the main tasks that we talk about in the grief literature is the maintaining connection. That just because this person isn't here, it doesn't mean that the love is gone or that the connection is gone. Like love is, in my opinion, eternal. Love is always with us. And if this person or, say, experience that you lost carries love, then that's still here.
Speaker #1
Quick side note, I might or might not leave this in the podcast. Do you believe in the afterlife?
Speaker #0
I love this question.
Speaker #1
I'm going to leave it in, by the way, then. Yeah,
Speaker #0
absolutely. This is like, like, I'd say like a part time philosopher, full time psychologist, therapist. So I do not believe in a specific afterlife. I was raised Catholic. So when I was a little kid, I believed in heaven and hell. And my grandmother was actually a nun, which is fascinating, as I've told you that. So over time, I really developed more of an agnostic attitude and more of a spiritual sense that integrating spirituality, science, and agnosticism. So like the intersection of those that I don't think matter is created or destroyed so that when someone dies, that their essence, their energy is still somewhere, but I can't exactly pinpoint where that is. So I like to think of it in nature, like I think of a wave or a sunset or that their energy is just back into the universe.
Speaker #1
Right. And I'm going to try to make a philosophical, like, I don't, I don't know if this is even related, but when you were talking, I thought about people ask questions like if a tree falls in the forest and no one's there to observe, did a tree, when it falls, did tree make a sound? And some people say it did just because no one's there to observe or validate it. it doesn't mean it didn't happen. But some people say, no, it didn't because there's no evidence, right? And I think that to relate it back to when somebody is no longer here with us, are their energies still around? I think it does come down to your individual beliefs. And I think a lot of time, those beliefs are part of the tools to help us to move on. My grandfather passed away, I want to say four years now. And I remember I was driving and I saw this little spider in my car forming a web. And I was driving pretty fast. I mean, not that fast, okay, for the record. But like, I was like on the freeway, you know? So what I'm trying to say is with my windows down, I don't really think that it's a possibility. Like, it's not like I parked in the forest and that happened. I was like literally driving on the freeway. With my windows down and this, I just saw a spider literally in front of me and started forming a web. And I was like, that's a grandpa, right? And I don't know if it's true. Who knows? But I think that helped me to give me a sense of like knowing that like almost like he's there with me, even though when he passed away, I wasn't there with him physically. So I think that like those small moments, however we interpret them, can be a bridge for us to be like, maybe we're not alone. And maybe they're still here with us.
Speaker #0
Yes. And thank you for sharing that. And it's so true that I often see like in my own experience and with my clients that these like little signs or things that help us feel that connection to them, that they're not gone. I recently had a similar experience where my niece, who is two years old, it was on the anniversary of my aunt's death that... My niece has never met this aunt, and she just started saying her nickname that we used to call her, which was Aunt Foofy. And she just kept saying, Foofy, And we were like, Meredith, what is going on? So now my whole family is like, wow, maybe Foofy was trying to come and be with us. And I think that, of course, we can have like a scientific explanation or, you know, we could try to. to disprove it. My younger atheistic self would have done that. But now, I think it can be really healing to believe or to have a belief in something. It doesn't really matter what.
Speaker #1
I agree with you. And I will leave on this note where I would say some people believe in science, some people believe in spirituality, some people believe in religion. Whatever you believe is truly for me like our way of dealing with the world because you need something to help you make sense of life. So whatever that you believe, like if you like it, I love it. My biggest thing, even with this podcast is like, find a thing that like really works for you so that you can move forward. Because it is hard when you don't have the people, the tool, the community to help you move forward. Then you're You are literally... alone and that has such like damaging effect on a person's emotional health and mental health but so I I think I do believe in afterlife just because I really hope this is not the end I was like if I do this much work in this lifetime I'm gonna come back so wise
Speaker #0
I'm gonna be maybe some reincarnation right yeah
Speaker #1
I'll come back and just start teaching people when I'm like one year old.
Speaker #0
Yes.
Speaker #1
But let's also talk about self-acceptance. I think that previous, before we jump on this interview, we talked about anxiety and we also kind of like talked about how regrets and grief could be blockers for our own self-acceptance. Mainly for me, I would say regrets is what make me not accept myself. A hundred percent, because like I mentioned before, I felt like I knew better and all those things, even though life is great, but I still have those thoughts, right? And I also think that anxiety and regrets kind of gaslight me a lot. Like I'll create a scenario that never have happened in my head and losing touch with the actuality, what's happening right now. I live in my head. of a world that I created, whether it's from what I should have done, could have done, or any mistakes I made. And it starts subconsciously, actually consciously punishing myself over and over again. And I wonder why I cannot move on. And then whenever I go get drinks with friends, and I was just like, I'm so sad. And they're like, bro, your life is so good. Like, what's, what's up? You know? And I feel like I can't walk away from this, like, set. because I don't accept who I am. Well, I guess I do, but like not to 100% who I am today.
Speaker #0
Does, right? Like, I mean, maybe the Buddha, but I think that's natural. And what I'm hearing in this is like often when we feel very tied to the regret or tied to our role in the regret or things that have happened. that it can be paralyzing.
Speaker #1
Truer words have never been said. Paralyzing is definitely so important. It's almost like, yeah, you can't, you're just like there. You're just stuck there. What I guess even just telling you this is a sign of lack of self-acceptance because I, not I should, but like, I think that like, if just... giving myself some grace and understanding that everything I've been doing is just part of being human. Maybe life could have been much lighter.
Speaker #0
Yes. And I think I think you're definitely on point there. Like it reminds me of a like a what is it a Chinese finger trap where like the harder that you pull more that it constricts. So then so then when you actually let go and kind of move toward that, it then allows you to to release from that. And and it's sounding like that might might be what's what's happening.
Speaker #1
In your line of work, do you find people who are processing a lot of heavy emotions also fall into the pattern of lack of self-acceptance?
Speaker #0
I would say most people have that experience and of course at different levels, but as they're working through hard emotions, a lot of people and a lot of it also can be culturally based. Family based, you know, of course, everything that goes into how they learn to exist in the world of then shaming themselves for having a certain big emotion or experience. And then that lack of acceptance of being human then is the what we call the secondary suffering. So right there have their primary suffering of, you know, going through, say, grief or another really challenging experience. And then the secondary suffering of... Now I am upset with myself and feeling regret and shame and embarrassment. And because I am experiencing this.
Speaker #1
Are there research on the topic of secondary suffering? I wonder why do we do this? I almost wonder if this is like a biological thing where we're trying to not do it again. So we like remember it.
Speaker #0
Yeah, well, yeah, absolutely. So I can definitely look into. research specifically on, I'm not sure the concept of secondary suffering. I'll have to look into researchers that maybe focus specifically on that. But like, I like to think about what are we actually trying to do for ourselves? And usually the goal is I don't want to repeat this. So then if I, you know, shame myself or, you know, put a magnifying glass on this, then I won't do this again and I'll be better. actually, like, as we've talked about, that's paralyzing. Like, shame is not a good motivator, maybe in the short term, but it is not sustainable.
Speaker #1
What is a good motivator?
Speaker #0
Yeah, I would say I have a very humanistic psychology perspective. And like, like you're talking about self-acceptance, it makes me think of the quote by Carl Rogers, that like, once I accept myself fully as I am, only then I can change. And I you think to get to that place that for me, the key to that is self-compassion and recognizing our own common humanity, right? Like treating ourselves like we would someone else. We give them grace. Why don't we give ourselves grace?
Speaker #1
Do you think it's because we think we're actually better than other people?
Speaker #0
That's an interesting question. Sometimes I think that it depends on the person. But I also think that that is often related to upbringing or maybe pressure from parents or caregivers that put the pressure on a child to be better, to be the best. And then that becomes internalized of I am better or I need to be better or I need to prove that I am the best.
Speaker #1
That makes sense. And I'm not saying like I'm better than anybody. I'm just saying like, I wonder we have such high expectations on ourselves because we believe that our capability, our potential could be higher. It does not necessarily always have to be a comparison to other people. It could just be like a comparison towards ourselves. And I think that I believe in this, but also I feel it could be a little toxic, is that you're your biggest enemy or the only person you should compete with is yourself. I totally understand where this is coming from and I'm here for it. But sometimes it can be a little exhausting because Even to this day, whenever I talked about, I'm just like, I'm so over it. Like, I don't want to heal anymore. I don't want to talk about it. I don't want to make this my whole identity. And then like one of my therapists, I have three therapists. And then so one of them would be like, it never ends. I was like, please, I didn't ask for your opinion. Okay. That was me telling you, like, you don't need to say anything. But it's true. Like, I mean, I have started to accept the fact that, you know, all jokes aside, like, I know that like, there are going to be things come up in the future that.
Speaker #0
I just have to process it. But I think it's just a matter of using the right tools, talking to the right person, whether it's a therapist or whoever helps you to help you get there and feel the peace. And I think for me, over time, I realized peace is the goal that I'm trying to reach. Well, peace and safety. I think feeling, you know, supported, right? And I think when a person going through some heavy emotions like grieving, like it's such a isolating experience. And because, like I said, like I have not, I lost my grandpa, but I wasn't, this is controversial. I don't think I was, I think I was sad, but I wasn't really devastated. We didn't, we weren't that close. But I can imagine, you know, some people go through a really heavy grieving process. What? what are some of the tools that they can use to help ease the pain a little bit?
Speaker #1
Yeah. And also, I would say that that's a very normal experience with your grandfather, that there is no right way to respond. And of course, grief is complex. If we're not as close to someone or there's complex dynamics, that's normal. And then also, when I think about what helps the most, I would say my practice. for myself and my clients is very grounded in mindfulness, that mindfulness kind of sets the stage for this healing. And that can be a daily meditation practice or just mindfulness of experience and the emotions that are here. And I find that is really effective in helping people be with what is. And the nature of existence is things are going to be painful, things are going to be beautiful. Loss is inevitable. Love is always present. So I think mindfulness and then like another way of integrating or integrating self-compassion into mindfulness of once we're more mindful of what is happening, then we can take the step to how am I communicating with myself? And am I communicating with myself in a way that I would to a beloved friend or family member?
Speaker #0
I think that's so important. I actually just had a conversation with myself this morning and I was like, I don't want to feel I am keep like lying and gaslighting myself. Right. And I felt like this morning before we start this interview, I draw the boundary with myself and I was like, enough, dude. Like no more overthinking. It's not, it's not funny anymore. Like this has been so stressful. I have to buy extra Reynolds serum for my face. Now I'm like start getting gray hair, which I was like, oh my God, this is aging.
Speaker #1
Yeah, it's happening. That's me too.
Speaker #0
Right. This is such a heavy topic and a topic I don't necessarily know a lot about, but you have educated me and I'm sure the listeners have taken so many useful information, advice from you before we end. the interview, if people want to work with you, how could they find you?
Speaker #1
Yes. So I'm available for individual therapy in Pennsylvania and Maryland. So that would be virtual care. And then soon within a month or so, I'll be in Annapolis, Maryland for anyone wanting individual services in person. And I also offer grief groups, virtual and in person, primarily for young adults. So they can reach out to me through my website, contact form or email. And I have free consultations if they'd like to see if we're a good fit.
Speaker #0
That's awesome. I'll make sure to link your website in the bio. Thank you again. Really appreciate you. And we hope you come back on the show very soon. And we will dive into more grief, regrets related topics.
Speaker #1
Yeah, so I would love to. And thank you so much for having me.
Speaker #0
Thank you so much for being here with me today on the Zen Podcast. If this episode resonated with you, make sure you're subscribed and leave a comment with your biggest takeaway. That's how we grow this community and get these conversations in front of more people who need them. And if somebody came to mind while you're listening, please do make sure to send this episode to them. You can also find me on TikTok, Instagram, YouTube, Apple Podcasts, and Spotify. All linked below. Until next time, stay sharp. stay intentional and be good.

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Transcription

Speaker #0
When I think about what helps the most, like I would say my practice for myself and my clients is very grounded in mindfulness, that mindfulness kind of sets the stage for this healing. And that can be a daily meditation practice or just mindfulness of experience and the emotions that are here. And I find that is really effective in helping people be with what is.
Speaker #1
Welcome back to the show, everybody. Today, we have the amazing Corinne Neese joining us. She is a grief therapist, and she has done so many things in her career, helping people processing their emotions. So I'm going to have you, Corinne, to introduce yourself and let the audience know what you do.
Speaker #0
Yes, well, I'm so glad to be here. Thank you for having me. So I am a grief therapist. I currently reside in Philadelphia, where I work at the University of Pennsylvania as an assistant instructor in positive psychology. And I also have a private practice where I specialize in grief, trauma and EMDR therapy. I am moving soon to Annapolis, so I will be an Annapolis based therapist in the near future. I also provide wellness workshops for individuals in veterinary and health care. facilities to support their well-being, mindfulness, and self-compassion. And that is me.
Speaker #1
I love it. Grief is something a lot of people experience, but they don't talk about it. And when I think of grief, it usually is related to a loss of someone or something. And I think that there's a lot of books and materials out there that help people. to process emotions, but grief is something that I have not read a lot of books about. And obviously I can Google the definition myself, but I'd like to hear from you, like how would you define grief?
Speaker #0
Yeah. So when I think about grief, that it is just our natural human response to loss. And of course, loss can be of any kind, like this can be when someone dies, but it also can be the loss of an identity. The loss of a person that is no longer present, but is still alive. The loss of a pet. That like this can take many forms. And then the response to it is multifaceted. That we have a cognitive response, an emotional response, and then a physiological, so a body response. And often my clients will describe it as like this heaviness, usually like heaviness in the chest. and a pit in the stomach, often trying to understand this new reality.
Speaker #1
That makes sense. I definitely feel like I have processed grief before, but mainly from a loss of identity. And I think that it's really hard to pinpoint how that felt because I also think there's just a lot of a mixture of feelings, right? There's like regrets, there's sadness, there's hope, and there is longing. And then I think for me, Whenever I grieve, I personally like to be alone. I don't know if it's for the better or worse. According to my therapist, I should be able to be more in touch with the world and be able to let the help and the love in to my own little isolated world. When people are going through grief, as somebody watching on the sideline, how can other people support? this individual who's going through such heavy emotions.
Speaker #0
So that can be complicated, especially if people haven't directly experienced grief in a really strong way. I often think that our capacity to help others in their grief is directly related to our own comfort with grief. So it takes kind of a lot of internal work of being able to sit with the realities of this existence that everything ends and that loss is an inevitable and natural part of the human experience. But that's really scary to a lot of us. And what is most helpful is often not trying to problem solve or fix or tell them what they should do. It's just being present to them and validating that what they're going through is hard.
Speaker #1
Absolutely. And I... Personally, I have had experiences where when somebody else is going through grief, like I don't really know the right wording to say to them. I don't really know if I should say like, I'm sorry for your loss, or should I just completely ignore it? I give you an example, like the reason why it's so confusing to me how I can support other people from the sideline. Because if I say I'm so sorry about everything we were going through, I feel like I'm reminding them what happened. And then they have to relive that. They might be having a temporary good day. And all of a sudden, I said something and now they're going back to how they felt maybe the day before or even an hour before. And then there's a part where he's like, okay, just act like nothing's happening. back to normal. But then like, I felt like I'm not validating them. I don't know what they need. And then it's really hard to like ask them, what do you need?
Speaker #0
Yeah, well, I think you just hit the nail on the head of communicating that that question of like, what would help you? Sometimes people aren't going to know exactly what that is, but they can give you an idea. But I think it is interesting that a lot of us maybe project our own discomfort with their grief so that like if I were to say this, that I'm upsetting them. But a lot of times in grief, like it's there anyways. It's not it's not like they're having this wonderful, amazing day and the grief isn't there. It's like the grief is always present and we like to think of it as growing around the grief. So it's not that it's something that they're not probably acutely aware of in that moment anyways. But I do think you really hit the nail on the head with asking them, like, what is going to be supportive to them? Do they want to talk about it? And really just coming from a compassionate and curious place.
Speaker #1
Speaking of curious, I'm curious how do we, when we're processing grief, like, should we process different emotions individually? For example, when I'm processing grief. I kind of separate like the facts from regrets or the reality versus what could have happened. And I think that gives me a sense of sanity and know that the universe have always have a plan. Maybe everything I think would go well might not be the best outcome for me. And this is probably for the better. But when I look back, people, not people, I guess me, would always have some sort of regrets. Is the path not traveled really that much better? Is regrets part of the griefing process? What's the relationship between the two?
Speaker #0
Yeah, well, I would say, well, to the first question about like experiencing the emotions kind of separately, that that's more of a model that is very important, like Kubler-Ross's model, where it breaks it down into these specific emotions like denial, anger, bargaining. acceptance or depression acceptance when we kind of have a more of a task-oriented approach now to grief processing, that it's not that clean, this is messy. And regret is very frequently woven into all of these other emotional experiences that we have during grief. So I would say that guilt and then a step further, regret is very much connected to grief because grief often leads us to reflect on. our experiences, our relationships. And then there's often the wish of, you know, I wish I said this. I wish they knew how much I cared. I wish I resolved this issue that we had. And it kind of gives you that bird's eye view of your life and relationships.
Speaker #1
Right. So I struggle with this. I think in my life, there are just so many crossroads. And I wondered. To this day, if I made a different choice back then, where would I be? I don't necessarily think my life would be significantly better, but I'm curious. And I think there's always like a sense of self-judgment. And I'll go so far to say a sense of self-disappointment. And I feel that I was supposed to know better, but then I didn't really do better. But then like... I talked to an expert they're like well you can't really say that because now you're looking at your past from your current level of consciousness back then you probably just did the best you could and I truly believe that I think everyone is doing the best they can and then we look back and we're like okay well I could have done better with way more information yeah way more 2020 thousand percent right and just but I would also say like Everybody, almost everybody that I talk to. No matter the good days or bad days, they would also always say those were the days, right? Like there is also like a appreciation looking back. So can we avoid regrets and just accept the reality is just the reality? And rather than spending time thinking about what could have happened, we just kind of live. Is that like a possible, is that something we can train ourselves to do?
Speaker #0
I would say that it is a active practice. I think it's kind of twofold that there's the more proactive practice of, well, what can I do now as to not experience regret in the future? So how can I make choices or communicate or do what it is that's going to lead to less experiences that. could cause regret. But then the other part of reckoning with the past. And a lot of what I do with my clients is self-compassion practices of kind of what you're talking about, like hindsight's 2020. But like we weren't that person at that time. It was a younger part of me. It was a more naive part. And and I can understand how they made the choices they did or took the path. they did because they were doing the best they could.
Speaker #1
Right. Would you say like, by asking that question, I'm bypassing my emotions? Meaning, would you say to try to avoid regrets is truly not to live to the fullest because I'm still trying to avoid the negative parts of life? I mean, maybe not negative, but like more heavier part of it.
Speaker #0
Yeah, I think it's interesting because I think regret is very subjective. And I think it has a lot to do with more of our perception of what's happened compared to what has actually happened. So I think there's a I think it's impossible to move through life without anything that could be regrettable. But I'm not sure if it would. I don't know if it's bypassing. I'm not sure.
Speaker #1
I think grief is a topic that's very heavy for me. I'm in my 30s. And at this age, you sort of think about losing family members. Because, you know, my dad is in his 80s. And my mom is like, not 60 yet. But, you know, they're coming of age where you start to think about they might get ill. They might leave one day. So I don't think about it. And I feel like maybe at a time when this happens, I'll be more equipped to process it. But I also know that people... tend to not process grief and they're in the denial part for a very long time. From your experiences working with your clients, what do you think block people from processing grief deeply?
Speaker #0
Yeah, I would say that like often it is the fear of feeling that depth of pain. And then a lot of times people feeling like, if I were to actually feel that, I don't know if I could come back. from this or I would just completely fall apart if I allowed that. And also we live in a society that has this pressure to function of like, you know, we have to do our job, we have to go to work. And I'll often joke in my grief groups that I run that I'll say like there should be like a grief leave, like that everyone should have grief leave and have space to be able to process and have the ability to move through it. So I would say those are the top two. And then maybe the third being a lot of people fear forgetting of the person. That if they were to actually feel this, grieve this, move through this, then like it's some kind of betrayal of if it's a loss by death.
Speaker #1
Do we have to process grief then? Because I guess people process emotions differently. Some people need like a chunk of time and just really. get to it. And then some people use destructions to not think about it, but I feel like their body is probably still processing it. But at the end of the day, can we avoid processing grief and then just let time heal? Or this has to be an active act that we need to do in order to not have those emotional trauma stuck in our body?
Speaker #0
Yeah, I would say that Time does not heal all wounds, right? Like I know we hear that, but it doesn't necessarily have to be as active as you're suggesting that if we are open to it, grief can often happen. So there can be the intentional part of like, I'm going to listen to this song and let myself feel through this and create a little shrine and honor the person each day. But that it also, if we're open to it, that the emotions will move through us at their own pace. And with the distractions or people that tend to distract, I don't think that all distraction is bad. I like the saying of micro joys help us survive macro grief. So that if some of these, say, distractions or other things in life are bringing you a sense of joy or comfort or connection, that's okay. We can't live in it all the time. It can't be this constant heaviness. So we need to balance it out of the feeling, the heaviness, but also the joy, the gratitude, the life that keeps. on happening.
Speaker #1
That makes sense. And earlier you said some people avoid grieving is because they have this fear of forgetting. What would you say to your clients and people who work with you? How do you, how do we not forget? How do we honor that part of our life or that person without forgetting, but also allow us to like move on?
Speaker #0
Yeah. And that's one of the main tasks that we talk about in the grief literature is the maintaining connection. That just because this person isn't here, it doesn't mean that the love is gone or that the connection is gone. Like love is, in my opinion, eternal. Love is always with us. And if this person or, say, experience that you lost carries love, then that's still here.
Speaker #1
Quick side note, I might or might not leave this in the podcast. Do you believe in the afterlife?
Speaker #0
I love this question.
Speaker #1
I'm going to leave it in, by the way, then. Yeah,
Speaker #0
absolutely. This is like, like, I'd say like a part time philosopher, full time psychologist, therapist. So I do not believe in a specific afterlife. I was raised Catholic. So when I was a little kid, I believed in heaven and hell. And my grandmother was actually a nun, which is fascinating, as I've told you that. So over time, I really developed more of an agnostic attitude and more of a spiritual sense that integrating spirituality, science, and agnosticism. So like the intersection of those that I don't think matter is created or destroyed so that when someone dies, that their essence, their energy is still somewhere, but I can't exactly pinpoint where that is. So I like to think of it in nature, like I think of a wave or a sunset or that their energy is just back into the universe.
Speaker #1
Right. And I'm going to try to make a philosophical, like, I don't, I don't know if this is even related, but when you were talking, I thought about people ask questions like if a tree falls in the forest and no one's there to observe, did a tree, when it falls, did tree make a sound? And some people say it did just because no one's there to observe or validate it. it doesn't mean it didn't happen. But some people say, no, it didn't because there's no evidence, right? And I think that to relate it back to when somebody is no longer here with us, are their energies still around? I think it does come down to your individual beliefs. And I think a lot of time, those beliefs are part of the tools to help us to move on. My grandfather passed away, I want to say four years now. And I remember I was driving and I saw this little spider in my car forming a web. And I was driving pretty fast. I mean, not that fast, okay, for the record. But like, I was like on the freeway, you know? So what I'm trying to say is with my windows down, I don't really think that it's a possibility. Like, it's not like I parked in the forest and that happened. I was like literally driving on the freeway. With my windows down and this, I just saw a spider literally in front of me and started forming a web. And I was like, that's a grandpa, right? And I don't know if it's true. Who knows? But I think that helped me to give me a sense of like knowing that like almost like he's there with me, even though when he passed away, I wasn't there with him physically. So I think that like those small moments, however we interpret them, can be a bridge for us to be like, maybe we're not alone. And maybe they're still here with us.
Speaker #0
Yes. And thank you for sharing that. And it's so true that I often see like in my own experience and with my clients that these like little signs or things that help us feel that connection to them, that they're not gone. I recently had a similar experience where my niece, who is two years old, it was on the anniversary of my aunt's death that... My niece has never met this aunt, and she just started saying her nickname that we used to call her, which was Aunt Foofy. And she just kept saying, Foofy, And we were like, Meredith, what is going on? So now my whole family is like, wow, maybe Foofy was trying to come and be with us. And I think that, of course, we can have like a scientific explanation or, you know, we could try to. to disprove it. My younger atheistic self would have done that. But now, I think it can be really healing to believe or to have a belief in something. It doesn't really matter what.
Speaker #1
I agree with you. And I will leave on this note where I would say some people believe in science, some people believe in spirituality, some people believe in religion. Whatever you believe is truly for me like our way of dealing with the world because you need something to help you make sense of life. So whatever that you believe, like if you like it, I love it. My biggest thing, even with this podcast is like, find a thing that like really works for you so that you can move forward. Because it is hard when you don't have the people, the tool, the community to help you move forward. Then you're You are literally... alone and that has such like damaging effect on a person's emotional health and mental health but so I I think I do believe in afterlife just because I really hope this is not the end I was like if I do this much work in this lifetime I'm gonna come back so wise
Speaker #0
I'm gonna be maybe some reincarnation right yeah
Speaker #1
I'll come back and just start teaching people when I'm like one year old.
Speaker #0
Yes.
Speaker #1
But let's also talk about self-acceptance. I think that previous, before we jump on this interview, we talked about anxiety and we also kind of like talked about how regrets and grief could be blockers for our own self-acceptance. Mainly for me, I would say regrets is what make me not accept myself. A hundred percent, because like I mentioned before, I felt like I knew better and all those things, even though life is great, but I still have those thoughts, right? And I also think that anxiety and regrets kind of gaslight me a lot. Like I'll create a scenario that never have happened in my head and losing touch with the actuality, what's happening right now. I live in my head. of a world that I created, whether it's from what I should have done, could have done, or any mistakes I made. And it starts subconsciously, actually consciously punishing myself over and over again. And I wonder why I cannot move on. And then whenever I go get drinks with friends, and I was just like, I'm so sad. And they're like, bro, your life is so good. Like, what's, what's up? You know? And I feel like I can't walk away from this, like, set. because I don't accept who I am. Well, I guess I do, but like not to 100% who I am today.
Speaker #0
Does, right? Like, I mean, maybe the Buddha, but I think that's natural. And what I'm hearing in this is like often when we feel very tied to the regret or tied to our role in the regret or things that have happened. that it can be paralyzing.
Speaker #1
Truer words have never been said. Paralyzing is definitely so important. It's almost like, yeah, you can't, you're just like there. You're just stuck there. What I guess even just telling you this is a sign of lack of self-acceptance because I, not I should, but like, I think that like, if just... giving myself some grace and understanding that everything I've been doing is just part of being human. Maybe life could have been much lighter.
Speaker #0
Yes. And I think I think you're definitely on point there. Like it reminds me of a like a what is it a Chinese finger trap where like the harder that you pull more that it constricts. So then so then when you actually let go and kind of move toward that, it then allows you to to release from that. And and it's sounding like that might might be what's what's happening.
Speaker #1
In your line of work, do you find people who are processing a lot of heavy emotions also fall into the pattern of lack of self-acceptance?
Speaker #0
I would say most people have that experience and of course at different levels, but as they're working through hard emotions, a lot of people and a lot of it also can be culturally based. Family based, you know, of course, everything that goes into how they learn to exist in the world of then shaming themselves for having a certain big emotion or experience. And then that lack of acceptance of being human then is the what we call the secondary suffering. So right there have their primary suffering of, you know, going through, say, grief or another really challenging experience. And then the secondary suffering of... Now I am upset with myself and feeling regret and shame and embarrassment. And because I am experiencing this.
Speaker #1
Are there research on the topic of secondary suffering? I wonder why do we do this? I almost wonder if this is like a biological thing where we're trying to not do it again. So we like remember it.
Speaker #0
Yeah, well, yeah, absolutely. So I can definitely look into. research specifically on, I'm not sure the concept of secondary suffering. I'll have to look into researchers that maybe focus specifically on that. But like, I like to think about what are we actually trying to do for ourselves? And usually the goal is I don't want to repeat this. So then if I, you know, shame myself or, you know, put a magnifying glass on this, then I won't do this again and I'll be better. actually, like, as we've talked about, that's paralyzing. Like, shame is not a good motivator, maybe in the short term, but it is not sustainable.
Speaker #1
What is a good motivator?
Speaker #0
Yeah, I would say I have a very humanistic psychology perspective. And like, like you're talking about self-acceptance, it makes me think of the quote by Carl Rogers, that like, once I accept myself fully as I am, only then I can change. And I you think to get to that place that for me, the key to that is self-compassion and recognizing our own common humanity, right? Like treating ourselves like we would someone else. We give them grace. Why don't we give ourselves grace?
Speaker #1
Do you think it's because we think we're actually better than other people?
Speaker #0
That's an interesting question. Sometimes I think that it depends on the person. But I also think that that is often related to upbringing or maybe pressure from parents or caregivers that put the pressure on a child to be better, to be the best. And then that becomes internalized of I am better or I need to be better or I need to prove that I am the best.
Speaker #1
That makes sense. And I'm not saying like I'm better than anybody. I'm just saying like, I wonder we have such high expectations on ourselves because we believe that our capability, our potential could be higher. It does not necessarily always have to be a comparison to other people. It could just be like a comparison towards ourselves. And I think that I believe in this, but also I feel it could be a little toxic, is that you're your biggest enemy or the only person you should compete with is yourself. I totally understand where this is coming from and I'm here for it. But sometimes it can be a little exhausting because Even to this day, whenever I talked about, I'm just like, I'm so over it. Like, I don't want to heal anymore. I don't want to talk about it. I don't want to make this my whole identity. And then like one of my therapists, I have three therapists. And then so one of them would be like, it never ends. I was like, please, I didn't ask for your opinion. Okay. That was me telling you, like, you don't need to say anything. But it's true. Like, I mean, I have started to accept the fact that, you know, all jokes aside, like, I know that like, there are going to be things come up in the future that.
Speaker #0
I just have to process it. But I think it's just a matter of using the right tools, talking to the right person, whether it's a therapist or whoever helps you to help you get there and feel the peace. And I think for me, over time, I realized peace is the goal that I'm trying to reach. Well, peace and safety. I think feeling, you know, supported, right? And I think when a person going through some heavy emotions like grieving, like it's such a isolating experience. And because, like I said, like I have not, I lost my grandpa, but I wasn't, this is controversial. I don't think I was, I think I was sad, but I wasn't really devastated. We didn't, we weren't that close. But I can imagine, you know, some people go through a really heavy grieving process. What? what are some of the tools that they can use to help ease the pain a little bit?
Speaker #1
Yeah. And also, I would say that that's a very normal experience with your grandfather, that there is no right way to respond. And of course, grief is complex. If we're not as close to someone or there's complex dynamics, that's normal. And then also, when I think about what helps the most, I would say my practice. for myself and my clients is very grounded in mindfulness, that mindfulness kind of sets the stage for this healing. And that can be a daily meditation practice or just mindfulness of experience and the emotions that are here. And I find that is really effective in helping people be with what is. And the nature of existence is things are going to be painful, things are going to be beautiful. Loss is inevitable. Love is always present. So I think mindfulness and then like another way of integrating or integrating self-compassion into mindfulness of once we're more mindful of what is happening, then we can take the step to how am I communicating with myself? And am I communicating with myself in a way that I would to a beloved friend or family member?
Speaker #0
I think that's so important. I actually just had a conversation with myself this morning and I was like, I don't want to feel I am keep like lying and gaslighting myself. Right. And I felt like this morning before we start this interview, I draw the boundary with myself and I was like, enough, dude. Like no more overthinking. It's not, it's not funny anymore. Like this has been so stressful. I have to buy extra Reynolds serum for my face. Now I'm like start getting gray hair, which I was like, oh my God, this is aging.
Speaker #1
Yeah, it's happening. That's me too.
Speaker #0
Right. This is such a heavy topic and a topic I don't necessarily know a lot about, but you have educated me and I'm sure the listeners have taken so many useful information, advice from you before we end. the interview, if people want to work with you, how could they find you?
Speaker #1
Yes. So I'm available for individual therapy in Pennsylvania and Maryland. So that would be virtual care. And then soon within a month or so, I'll be in Annapolis, Maryland for anyone wanting individual services in person. And I also offer grief groups, virtual and in person, primarily for young adults. So they can reach out to me through my website, contact form or email. And I have free consultations if they'd like to see if we're a good fit.
Speaker #0
That's awesome. I'll make sure to link your website in the bio. Thank you again. Really appreciate you. And we hope you come back on the show very soon. And we will dive into more grief, regrets related topics.
Speaker #1
Yeah, so I would love to. And thank you so much for having me.
Speaker #0
Thank you so much for being here with me today on the Zen Podcast. If this episode resonated with you, make sure you're subscribed and leave a comment with your biggest takeaway. That's how we grow this community and get these conversations in front of more people who need them. And if somebody came to mind while you're listening, please do make sure to send this episode to them. You can also find me on TikTok, Instagram, YouTube, Apple Podcasts, and Spotify. All linked below. Until next time, stay sharp. stay intentional and be good.

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About The Zhen Podcast

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https://flourishtherapyservices.com/

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Transcription

Speaker #0
When I think about what helps the most, like I would say my practice for myself and my clients is very grounded in mindfulness, that mindfulness kind of sets the stage for this healing. And that can be a daily meditation practice or just mindfulness of experience and the emotions that are here. And I find that is really effective in helping people be with what is.
Speaker #1
Welcome back to the show, everybody. Today, we have the amazing Corinne Neese joining us. She is a grief therapist, and she has done so many things in her career, helping people processing their emotions. So I'm going to have you, Corinne, to introduce yourself and let the audience know what you do.
Speaker #0
Yes, well, I'm so glad to be here. Thank you for having me. So I am a grief therapist. I currently reside in Philadelphia, where I work at the University of Pennsylvania as an assistant instructor in positive psychology. And I also have a private practice where I specialize in grief, trauma and EMDR therapy. I am moving soon to Annapolis, so I will be an Annapolis based therapist in the near future. I also provide wellness workshops for individuals in veterinary and health care. facilities to support their well-being, mindfulness, and self-compassion. And that is me.
Speaker #1
I love it. Grief is something a lot of people experience, but they don't talk about it. And when I think of grief, it usually is related to a loss of someone or something. And I think that there's a lot of books and materials out there that help people. to process emotions, but grief is something that I have not read a lot of books about. And obviously I can Google the definition myself, but I'd like to hear from you, like how would you define grief?
Speaker #0
Yeah. So when I think about grief, that it is just our natural human response to loss. And of course, loss can be of any kind, like this can be when someone dies, but it also can be the loss of an identity. The loss of a person that is no longer present, but is still alive. The loss of a pet. That like this can take many forms. And then the response to it is multifaceted. That we have a cognitive response, an emotional response, and then a physiological, so a body response. And often my clients will describe it as like this heaviness, usually like heaviness in the chest. and a pit in the stomach, often trying to understand this new reality.
Speaker #1
That makes sense. I definitely feel like I have processed grief before, but mainly from a loss of identity. And I think that it's really hard to pinpoint how that felt because I also think there's just a lot of a mixture of feelings, right? There's like regrets, there's sadness, there's hope, and there is longing. And then I think for me, Whenever I grieve, I personally like to be alone. I don't know if it's for the better or worse. According to my therapist, I should be able to be more in touch with the world and be able to let the help and the love in to my own little isolated world. When people are going through grief, as somebody watching on the sideline, how can other people support? this individual who's going through such heavy emotions.
Speaker #0
So that can be complicated, especially if people haven't directly experienced grief in a really strong way. I often think that our capacity to help others in their grief is directly related to our own comfort with grief. So it takes kind of a lot of internal work of being able to sit with the realities of this existence that everything ends and that loss is an inevitable and natural part of the human experience. But that's really scary to a lot of us. And what is most helpful is often not trying to problem solve or fix or tell them what they should do. It's just being present to them and validating that what they're going through is hard.
Speaker #1
Absolutely. And I... Personally, I have had experiences where when somebody else is going through grief, like I don't really know the right wording to say to them. I don't really know if I should say like, I'm sorry for your loss, or should I just completely ignore it? I give you an example, like the reason why it's so confusing to me how I can support other people from the sideline. Because if I say I'm so sorry about everything we were going through, I feel like I'm reminding them what happened. And then they have to relive that. They might be having a temporary good day. And all of a sudden, I said something and now they're going back to how they felt maybe the day before or even an hour before. And then there's a part where he's like, okay, just act like nothing's happening. back to normal. But then like, I felt like I'm not validating them. I don't know what they need. And then it's really hard to like ask them, what do you need?
Speaker #0
Yeah, well, I think you just hit the nail on the head of communicating that that question of like, what would help you? Sometimes people aren't going to know exactly what that is, but they can give you an idea. But I think it is interesting that a lot of us maybe project our own discomfort with their grief so that like if I were to say this, that I'm upsetting them. But a lot of times in grief, like it's there anyways. It's not it's not like they're having this wonderful, amazing day and the grief isn't there. It's like the grief is always present and we like to think of it as growing around the grief. So it's not that it's something that they're not probably acutely aware of in that moment anyways. But I do think you really hit the nail on the head with asking them, like, what is going to be supportive to them? Do they want to talk about it? And really just coming from a compassionate and curious place.
Speaker #1
Speaking of curious, I'm curious how do we, when we're processing grief, like, should we process different emotions individually? For example, when I'm processing grief. I kind of separate like the facts from regrets or the reality versus what could have happened. And I think that gives me a sense of sanity and know that the universe have always have a plan. Maybe everything I think would go well might not be the best outcome for me. And this is probably for the better. But when I look back, people, not people, I guess me, would always have some sort of regrets. Is the path not traveled really that much better? Is regrets part of the griefing process? What's the relationship between the two?
Speaker #0
Yeah, well, I would say, well, to the first question about like experiencing the emotions kind of separately, that that's more of a model that is very important, like Kubler-Ross's model, where it breaks it down into these specific emotions like denial, anger, bargaining. acceptance or depression acceptance when we kind of have a more of a task-oriented approach now to grief processing, that it's not that clean, this is messy. And regret is very frequently woven into all of these other emotional experiences that we have during grief. So I would say that guilt and then a step further, regret is very much connected to grief because grief often leads us to reflect on. our experiences, our relationships. And then there's often the wish of, you know, I wish I said this. I wish they knew how much I cared. I wish I resolved this issue that we had. And it kind of gives you that bird's eye view of your life and relationships.
Speaker #1
Right. So I struggle with this. I think in my life, there are just so many crossroads. And I wondered. To this day, if I made a different choice back then, where would I be? I don't necessarily think my life would be significantly better, but I'm curious. And I think there's always like a sense of self-judgment. And I'll go so far to say a sense of self-disappointment. And I feel that I was supposed to know better, but then I didn't really do better. But then like... I talked to an expert they're like well you can't really say that because now you're looking at your past from your current level of consciousness back then you probably just did the best you could and I truly believe that I think everyone is doing the best they can and then we look back and we're like okay well I could have done better with way more information yeah way more 2020 thousand percent right and just but I would also say like Everybody, almost everybody that I talk to. No matter the good days or bad days, they would also always say those were the days, right? Like there is also like a appreciation looking back. So can we avoid regrets and just accept the reality is just the reality? And rather than spending time thinking about what could have happened, we just kind of live. Is that like a possible, is that something we can train ourselves to do?
Speaker #0
I would say that it is a active practice. I think it's kind of twofold that there's the more proactive practice of, well, what can I do now as to not experience regret in the future? So how can I make choices or communicate or do what it is that's going to lead to less experiences that. could cause regret. But then the other part of reckoning with the past. And a lot of what I do with my clients is self-compassion practices of kind of what you're talking about, like hindsight's 2020. But like we weren't that person at that time. It was a younger part of me. It was a more naive part. And and I can understand how they made the choices they did or took the path. they did because they were doing the best they could.
Speaker #1
Right. Would you say like, by asking that question, I'm bypassing my emotions? Meaning, would you say to try to avoid regrets is truly not to live to the fullest because I'm still trying to avoid the negative parts of life? I mean, maybe not negative, but like more heavier part of it.
Speaker #0
Yeah, I think it's interesting because I think regret is very subjective. And I think it has a lot to do with more of our perception of what's happened compared to what has actually happened. So I think there's a I think it's impossible to move through life without anything that could be regrettable. But I'm not sure if it would. I don't know if it's bypassing. I'm not sure.
Speaker #1
I think grief is a topic that's very heavy for me. I'm in my 30s. And at this age, you sort of think about losing family members. Because, you know, my dad is in his 80s. And my mom is like, not 60 yet. But, you know, they're coming of age where you start to think about they might get ill. They might leave one day. So I don't think about it. And I feel like maybe at a time when this happens, I'll be more equipped to process it. But I also know that people... tend to not process grief and they're in the denial part for a very long time. From your experiences working with your clients, what do you think block people from processing grief deeply?
Speaker #0
Yeah, I would say that like often it is the fear of feeling that depth of pain. And then a lot of times people feeling like, if I were to actually feel that, I don't know if I could come back. from this or I would just completely fall apart if I allowed that. And also we live in a society that has this pressure to function of like, you know, we have to do our job, we have to go to work. And I'll often joke in my grief groups that I run that I'll say like there should be like a grief leave, like that everyone should have grief leave and have space to be able to process and have the ability to move through it. So I would say those are the top two. And then maybe the third being a lot of people fear forgetting of the person. That if they were to actually feel this, grieve this, move through this, then like it's some kind of betrayal of if it's a loss by death.
Speaker #1
Do we have to process grief then? Because I guess people process emotions differently. Some people need like a chunk of time and just really. get to it. And then some people use destructions to not think about it, but I feel like their body is probably still processing it. But at the end of the day, can we avoid processing grief and then just let time heal? Or this has to be an active act that we need to do in order to not have those emotional trauma stuck in our body?
Speaker #0
Yeah, I would say that Time does not heal all wounds, right? Like I know we hear that, but it doesn't necessarily have to be as active as you're suggesting that if we are open to it, grief can often happen. So there can be the intentional part of like, I'm going to listen to this song and let myself feel through this and create a little shrine and honor the person each day. But that it also, if we're open to it, that the emotions will move through us at their own pace. And with the distractions or people that tend to distract, I don't think that all distraction is bad. I like the saying of micro joys help us survive macro grief. So that if some of these, say, distractions or other things in life are bringing you a sense of joy or comfort or connection, that's okay. We can't live in it all the time. It can't be this constant heaviness. So we need to balance it out of the feeling, the heaviness, but also the joy, the gratitude, the life that keeps. on happening.
Speaker #1
That makes sense. And earlier you said some people avoid grieving is because they have this fear of forgetting. What would you say to your clients and people who work with you? How do you, how do we not forget? How do we honor that part of our life or that person without forgetting, but also allow us to like move on?
Speaker #0
Yeah. And that's one of the main tasks that we talk about in the grief literature is the maintaining connection. That just because this person isn't here, it doesn't mean that the love is gone or that the connection is gone. Like love is, in my opinion, eternal. Love is always with us. And if this person or, say, experience that you lost carries love, then that's still here.
Speaker #1
Quick side note, I might or might not leave this in the podcast. Do you believe in the afterlife?
Speaker #0
I love this question.
Speaker #1
I'm going to leave it in, by the way, then. Yeah,
Speaker #0
absolutely. This is like, like, I'd say like a part time philosopher, full time psychologist, therapist. So I do not believe in a specific afterlife. I was raised Catholic. So when I was a little kid, I believed in heaven and hell. And my grandmother was actually a nun, which is fascinating, as I've told you that. So over time, I really developed more of an agnostic attitude and more of a spiritual sense that integrating spirituality, science, and agnosticism. So like the intersection of those that I don't think matter is created or destroyed so that when someone dies, that their essence, their energy is still somewhere, but I can't exactly pinpoint where that is. So I like to think of it in nature, like I think of a wave or a sunset or that their energy is just back into the universe.
Speaker #1
Right. And I'm going to try to make a philosophical, like, I don't, I don't know if this is even related, but when you were talking, I thought about people ask questions like if a tree falls in the forest and no one's there to observe, did a tree, when it falls, did tree make a sound? And some people say it did just because no one's there to observe or validate it. it doesn't mean it didn't happen. But some people say, no, it didn't because there's no evidence, right? And I think that to relate it back to when somebody is no longer here with us, are their energies still around? I think it does come down to your individual beliefs. And I think a lot of time, those beliefs are part of the tools to help us to move on. My grandfather passed away, I want to say four years now. And I remember I was driving and I saw this little spider in my car forming a web. And I was driving pretty fast. I mean, not that fast, okay, for the record. But like, I was like on the freeway, you know? So what I'm trying to say is with my windows down, I don't really think that it's a possibility. Like, it's not like I parked in the forest and that happened. I was like literally driving on the freeway. With my windows down and this, I just saw a spider literally in front of me and started forming a web. And I was like, that's a grandpa, right? And I don't know if it's true. Who knows? But I think that helped me to give me a sense of like knowing that like almost like he's there with me, even though when he passed away, I wasn't there with him physically. So I think that like those small moments, however we interpret them, can be a bridge for us to be like, maybe we're not alone. And maybe they're still here with us.
Speaker #0
Yes. And thank you for sharing that. And it's so true that I often see like in my own experience and with my clients that these like little signs or things that help us feel that connection to them, that they're not gone. I recently had a similar experience where my niece, who is two years old, it was on the anniversary of my aunt's death that... My niece has never met this aunt, and she just started saying her nickname that we used to call her, which was Aunt Foofy. And she just kept saying, Foofy, And we were like, Meredith, what is going on? So now my whole family is like, wow, maybe Foofy was trying to come and be with us. And I think that, of course, we can have like a scientific explanation or, you know, we could try to. to disprove it. My younger atheistic self would have done that. But now, I think it can be really healing to believe or to have a belief in something. It doesn't really matter what.
Speaker #1
I agree with you. And I will leave on this note where I would say some people believe in science, some people believe in spirituality, some people believe in religion. Whatever you believe is truly for me like our way of dealing with the world because you need something to help you make sense of life. So whatever that you believe, like if you like it, I love it. My biggest thing, even with this podcast is like, find a thing that like really works for you so that you can move forward. Because it is hard when you don't have the people, the tool, the community to help you move forward. Then you're You are literally... alone and that has such like damaging effect on a person's emotional health and mental health but so I I think I do believe in afterlife just because I really hope this is not the end I was like if I do this much work in this lifetime I'm gonna come back so wise
Speaker #0
I'm gonna be maybe some reincarnation right yeah
Speaker #1
I'll come back and just start teaching people when I'm like one year old.
Speaker #0
Yes.
Speaker #1
But let's also talk about self-acceptance. I think that previous, before we jump on this interview, we talked about anxiety and we also kind of like talked about how regrets and grief could be blockers for our own self-acceptance. Mainly for me, I would say regrets is what make me not accept myself. A hundred percent, because like I mentioned before, I felt like I knew better and all those things, even though life is great, but I still have those thoughts, right? And I also think that anxiety and regrets kind of gaslight me a lot. Like I'll create a scenario that never have happened in my head and losing touch with the actuality, what's happening right now. I live in my head. of a world that I created, whether it's from what I should have done, could have done, or any mistakes I made. And it starts subconsciously, actually consciously punishing myself over and over again. And I wonder why I cannot move on. And then whenever I go get drinks with friends, and I was just like, I'm so sad. And they're like, bro, your life is so good. Like, what's, what's up? You know? And I feel like I can't walk away from this, like, set. because I don't accept who I am. Well, I guess I do, but like not to 100% who I am today.
Speaker #0
Does, right? Like, I mean, maybe the Buddha, but I think that's natural. And what I'm hearing in this is like often when we feel very tied to the regret or tied to our role in the regret or things that have happened. that it can be paralyzing.
Speaker #1
Truer words have never been said. Paralyzing is definitely so important. It's almost like, yeah, you can't, you're just like there. You're just stuck there. What I guess even just telling you this is a sign of lack of self-acceptance because I, not I should, but like, I think that like, if just... giving myself some grace and understanding that everything I've been doing is just part of being human. Maybe life could have been much lighter.
Speaker #0
Yes. And I think I think you're definitely on point there. Like it reminds me of a like a what is it a Chinese finger trap where like the harder that you pull more that it constricts. So then so then when you actually let go and kind of move toward that, it then allows you to to release from that. And and it's sounding like that might might be what's what's happening.
Speaker #1
In your line of work, do you find people who are processing a lot of heavy emotions also fall into the pattern of lack of self-acceptance?
Speaker #0
I would say most people have that experience and of course at different levels, but as they're working through hard emotions, a lot of people and a lot of it also can be culturally based. Family based, you know, of course, everything that goes into how they learn to exist in the world of then shaming themselves for having a certain big emotion or experience. And then that lack of acceptance of being human then is the what we call the secondary suffering. So right there have their primary suffering of, you know, going through, say, grief or another really challenging experience. And then the secondary suffering of... Now I am upset with myself and feeling regret and shame and embarrassment. And because I am experiencing this.
Speaker #1
Are there research on the topic of secondary suffering? I wonder why do we do this? I almost wonder if this is like a biological thing where we're trying to not do it again. So we like remember it.
Speaker #0
Yeah, well, yeah, absolutely. So I can definitely look into. research specifically on, I'm not sure the concept of secondary suffering. I'll have to look into researchers that maybe focus specifically on that. But like, I like to think about what are we actually trying to do for ourselves? And usually the goal is I don't want to repeat this. So then if I, you know, shame myself or, you know, put a magnifying glass on this, then I won't do this again and I'll be better. actually, like, as we've talked about, that's paralyzing. Like, shame is not a good motivator, maybe in the short term, but it is not sustainable.
Speaker #1
What is a good motivator?
Speaker #0
Yeah, I would say I have a very humanistic psychology perspective. And like, like you're talking about self-acceptance, it makes me think of the quote by Carl Rogers, that like, once I accept myself fully as I am, only then I can change. And I you think to get to that place that for me, the key to that is self-compassion and recognizing our own common humanity, right? Like treating ourselves like we would someone else. We give them grace. Why don't we give ourselves grace?
Speaker #1
Do you think it's because we think we're actually better than other people?
Speaker #0
That's an interesting question. Sometimes I think that it depends on the person. But I also think that that is often related to upbringing or maybe pressure from parents or caregivers that put the pressure on a child to be better, to be the best. And then that becomes internalized of I am better or I need to be better or I need to prove that I am the best.
Speaker #1
That makes sense. And I'm not saying like I'm better than anybody. I'm just saying like, I wonder we have such high expectations on ourselves because we believe that our capability, our potential could be higher. It does not necessarily always have to be a comparison to other people. It could just be like a comparison towards ourselves. And I think that I believe in this, but also I feel it could be a little toxic, is that you're your biggest enemy or the only person you should compete with is yourself. I totally understand where this is coming from and I'm here for it. But sometimes it can be a little exhausting because Even to this day, whenever I talked about, I'm just like, I'm so over it. Like, I don't want to heal anymore. I don't want to talk about it. I don't want to make this my whole identity. And then like one of my therapists, I have three therapists. And then so one of them would be like, it never ends. I was like, please, I didn't ask for your opinion. Okay. That was me telling you, like, you don't need to say anything. But it's true. Like, I mean, I have started to accept the fact that, you know, all jokes aside, like, I know that like, there are going to be things come up in the future that.
Speaker #0
I just have to process it. But I think it's just a matter of using the right tools, talking to the right person, whether it's a therapist or whoever helps you to help you get there and feel the peace. And I think for me, over time, I realized peace is the goal that I'm trying to reach. Well, peace and safety. I think feeling, you know, supported, right? And I think when a person going through some heavy emotions like grieving, like it's such a isolating experience. And because, like I said, like I have not, I lost my grandpa, but I wasn't, this is controversial. I don't think I was, I think I was sad, but I wasn't really devastated. We didn't, we weren't that close. But I can imagine, you know, some people go through a really heavy grieving process. What? what are some of the tools that they can use to help ease the pain a little bit?
Speaker #1
Yeah. And also, I would say that that's a very normal experience with your grandfather, that there is no right way to respond. And of course, grief is complex. If we're not as close to someone or there's complex dynamics, that's normal. And then also, when I think about what helps the most, I would say my practice. for myself and my clients is very grounded in mindfulness, that mindfulness kind of sets the stage for this healing. And that can be a daily meditation practice or just mindfulness of experience and the emotions that are here. And I find that is really effective in helping people be with what is. And the nature of existence is things are going to be painful, things are going to be beautiful. Loss is inevitable. Love is always present. So I think mindfulness and then like another way of integrating or integrating self-compassion into mindfulness of once we're more mindful of what is happening, then we can take the step to how am I communicating with myself? And am I communicating with myself in a way that I would to a beloved friend or family member?
Speaker #0
I think that's so important. I actually just had a conversation with myself this morning and I was like, I don't want to feel I am keep like lying and gaslighting myself. Right. And I felt like this morning before we start this interview, I draw the boundary with myself and I was like, enough, dude. Like no more overthinking. It's not, it's not funny anymore. Like this has been so stressful. I have to buy extra Reynolds serum for my face. Now I'm like start getting gray hair, which I was like, oh my God, this is aging.
Speaker #1
Yeah, it's happening. That's me too.
Speaker #0
Right. This is such a heavy topic and a topic I don't necessarily know a lot about, but you have educated me and I'm sure the listeners have taken so many useful information, advice from you before we end. the interview, if people want to work with you, how could they find you?
Speaker #1
Yes. So I'm available for individual therapy in Pennsylvania and Maryland. So that would be virtual care. And then soon within a month or so, I'll be in Annapolis, Maryland for anyone wanting individual services in person. And I also offer grief groups, virtual and in person, primarily for young adults. So they can reach out to me through my website, contact form or email. And I have free consultations if they'd like to see if we're a good fit.
Speaker #0
That's awesome. I'll make sure to link your website in the bio. Thank you again. Really appreciate you. And we hope you come back on the show very soon. And we will dive into more grief, regrets related topics.
Speaker #1
Yeah, so I would love to. And thank you so much for having me.
Speaker #0
Thank you so much for being here with me today on the Zen Podcast. If this episode resonated with you, make sure you're subscribed and leave a comment with your biggest takeaway. That's how we grow this community and get these conversations in front of more people who need them. And if somebody came to mind while you're listening, please do make sure to send this episode to them. You can also find me on TikTok, Instagram, YouTube, Apple Podcasts, and Spotify. All linked below. Until next time, stay sharp. stay intentional and be good.

About The Zhen Podcast

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About The Zhen Podcast

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

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