- Speaker #0
Welcome to True Crime, Authors and Extraordinary People, the podcast where we bring two passions together. The show that gives new meaning to the old adage, truth is stranger than fiction. And reminding you that there is an extraordinary person in all of us. Here is your host, David McClam.
- Speaker #1
What's going on everybody and welcome to the episode of True Crime, Authors and Extraordinary People. Of course, I'm your man, David McClam. Hey, if you guys haven't already. Make sure you're following us on all of our social media. One link to a link tree will get you every place you need to go pertaining to the show. And as always, I want to remind everyone, if you are someone who is thinking about hurting yourself or someone else, please dial 988. You can reach them by text or by voice. It is the suicide prevention hotline. It will give you the help in which you need. And if no one else has told you this today, allow me to be the first. to tell you that I do care and I do need you to be here. There is nothing worth your life. All right, well, today is author day and I have a good one for you. I've already warned her that I'm probably going to butcher some of these names. So you guys have to bear with me because there is some French in here and when I'm done, she can feel free to correct me. So here we go. She is an award-winning Canadian author, educator, artist, and researcher. whose work has appeared in Press Time, Quill, Current, El Canada, Masanuve, Critical Review, and Skeptic. She was a relationships columnist for the Hamilton Spectator, an advice columnist for the Victoria Times Columnist, and was a researcher for Cineflix's true crime documentary series, A Time to Kill. She was the first female recipient of the Arts Award from McMaster University in Canada. and is the author of a number of books, including Don't Believe It, How Lies Become News, Outfoxed, Rupert Murdoch's War on Journalism, The Art of Kintsugi, The Dramatic Moment of Fate, The Life of Sherlock Holmes in the Theater, and A Different Track, Hospital Trains of the Second World War. She is the author of Murder in a Sundown Town. Please welcome author Alexandra Kitty. Hi, Alexandra. Thank you for being here today.
- Speaker #2
Nice to be on here. Thank you very much.
- Speaker #1
So go ahead, scold me, tell me what I butchered, because I know I saw your face and laughed at me, and I tried to pronounce that one name. How is that pronounced?
- Speaker #2
Maisonneuve. New house, basically, in French. So that was the only thing. Otherwise, it was flawless.
- Speaker #1
Oh, thank you. I appreciate it. So before we jump in, is there anything else that anyone needs to know about Alexandra Kitty that wasn't covered in your intro?
- Speaker #2
No, not really. You pretty much covered me well. I can say I'm a true crime. Since I was a kid, I was always interested in mysteries and true crime from a more of an emotional standpoint. And it was something I've always had interest in, but I never thought that I would be doing this as a career.
- Speaker #1
That makes two of us. I have been into true crime since I've been a young kid. Never thought I would have any kind of career doing it. But once again, here we are, and that's what we're doing. Only people that really love this genre you will find actually does this. So, all right. So I guess let's jump in and probably kind of touched on it, but let's go a little bit deeper. What actually got you into true crime?
- Speaker #2
As a career or as a passion, it was just something my family and I always used to watch. We would, you know, it was one of those appointment TVs for us. We would watch true crime. I would read about it. Because I really felt for the victims. Even as a kid, to me, it was always about empathy. Sometimes people want to know about the clues. To me, it was always about the people who got hurt. And then I went into journalism. I went to teach and all these other things. I was doing these weird and wonderful things. And then I saw an ad on LinkedIn. They were looking for a researcher for a true crime show called The Time to Kill. And I thought, I'm going to put my resume in. I don't think I qualify for that, but... I put it in, and then I got an interview. And then I got the job on Friday, and then I started working on that following Monday. And I found that I really had a propensity from it. And it was always interesting. You watch true crime TV from one side, but putting it together, it was a complete shock to me how it was put together, what the considerations were, what victims were included and excluded, and not even on purpose. And I thought, this is something I really want to... you know, once I finished, I worked there for three seasons. I did about eight cases. And I thought, I really want to explore the ethics of it. I want to explore. The Bible of it, the way the structure of it, how we come to know things and why certain things, people and cases get included and why they get excluded and understanding the fit of a show. And that's how I got into going on it way beyond my stint on this program.
- Speaker #1
Now, I want the audience to remember what you just said about true crime documentaries. We're going to touch a lot more into that because this is actually how you wrote. The book, Murder in the Sundown Town, which I found a very interesting way. So we're going to get into that here in a minute. I also would like to know, now you've written a wide range of books. How did you come to write these various books that you've written?
- Speaker #2
I was looked for in two ways. First, if I could get a job in something and explore it empirically, what I called method research instead of method acting, I would go into it, get a job in something, and then... write about it. So I wanted to learn about Kintsugi, so I did Kintsugi and became a Kintsugi artist and instructor. That's how I wrote The Art of Kintsugi. I went into journalism in order to conduct experiments as a journalist and then write my books, such as Don't Believe It and Unboxed. Some of them was just little gaps in history, and one of them was a different track, Hospital Trains of the Second World War. My grandmother was a nurse on a hospital train. And I was shocked that there was no other book ever written about hospital trains, not in the Second World War, First World War ever. So I thought, well, that's a disservice because there were so many nurses. You know, there were women who laid the tracks to help build the trains, man the trains as nurses. And we don't have a single book about these women. So if I don't, if it's not a gap, then it's something that I want to experience firsthand so I can write about it intelligently and with empathy. Um, it's easy to know things from the outside, but it's different once you're in there and you have skin in the game.
- Speaker #1
Well, I haven't read that book yet, but I'm going to, because I didn't know that women actually did those things in world war two. And it seems like no matter where you are in the world, the efforts of women is very downplayed in this hidden. And when the reality is, and a lot of these things, if it wasn't for women, a lot of things when they got done, you know, we just had the movie about the first black. female battalion that was responsible for getting mail out. So thank you for writing that book. I will be sure to check that out. Audience, you should check that one out too. And make sure you put that in the show notes as well. Now onto your current book, the one that I've read. I know it came out about 2023, I believe. So Murder in the Sundown Town deals with the murder of young Carol Jenkins. It was a case that happened in 1968. For those of you guys that don't know, it happened in Martinsville, Indiana. and she was an encyclopedia salesperson. So what happened is back in the day, they would go door to door to sell people encyclopedias, and that's what Carol was doing, had to actually move. She went from the town she was in to another town, which happened to be Martinsville, because it was more lucrative over there. What made you want to take on Carol's case and write about it?
- Speaker #2
I was fascinated by her case in a historical standpoint. But then when I started working for A Time to Kill, I said, her case dovetails so perfectly in this format, and yet it defies all this. This is why we fear so little about her in true crime television. Podcasters have taken up the mantle. I'm not going to say they haven't. But why was Carol's case something that you would think that every true crime show would have discussed? This was so shocking. Shocking. I mean, you have here a victim who... was a lovely young woman. She, you know, faced challenges. You know, there's that old Japanese proverb, fall down seven times, get up eight. And she was that kind of person. There was a strike where she worked. She, you know, went out, got another job. I mean, this is somebody that would be a role model. I mean, if this was a fictional story, she would have been a heroine. And yet, she was killed on her first night on the job. selling encyclopedias. And yet you don't have her narrative out there the way that some other murder cases that we know of that happened decades ago, we're still very familiar with it. And hers wasn't. And I thought this is profoundly infuriating and unfair. And I wanted to go, what is it about this case that True Crime TV has almost completely overlooked? I think there was one episode where she was one of three victims. victims, but it was never just her. And I thought, Let's look at this from a true crime researcher's perspective, because when you're the researcher, you pitch stories, you get stories, but you also pitch them. And this would have been something I would have pitched. And I know that it wouldn't have been accepted for numerous reasons. And I was looking at it through that lens. Why was she ignored?
- Speaker #1
Unfortunately, a lot of these cases ignored simply because she's African American. And that's been the biggest thing for me as a podcaster. So try to put those cases out there. I have another show called Extinguish where we deal with just murder and missing cases. And my partner and I, we talk about that. We said all of these other cases that no one hears about because they're African-American or they were drug addicts or they were white, but they lived in the slums and nobody cares until somebody like yourself who researches it and says, wow, why hasn't this case been talked about? because now... It should have been solved all these years ago, but they bury it. And a lot of it deals with racism, as you probably found that out while you were writing the book.
- Speaker #2
Oh, definitely. Racism was at the heart of this. But also, when you're thinking about this is a historical case. This isn't, you know, we deal with murder every day, but this one was so important historically. And yet it has been ignored, ignored, ignored. And yet it has had Carol Hauser champion. And that's what I also said. There were people. who championed this, who fought for this. It was like a losing battle because the Curse of Carol was black. And also you're dealing with a town that was known as a Sundown town, where if you were black and you went there at sundown, your life was in danger. And here's a young woman, very pleasant, not harming anyone, going in to earn an honest day's pay and gets killed the first night she's in there.
- Speaker #1
Now, I don't want to give too much of the book away because I want everybody to go read this book. It is a great book, and I'm not going to be over political, but in the times that we are currently in, I always try to find things that are still relevant to the time. Janet Jackson wrote Rhythm Nation more than 30 plus years ago, and it's still relevant today, just like this book. But what I wanted to point out was, is in the book, You started getting a lot of excuses from people, right? They're like, well, we don't think it was racism because the fact that it was said that she was sexually approached and maybe the guy just wanted to do it and she wouldn't. Did you buy any of that? How much of that do you feel was because the color of her skin versus somebody trying to have a sexual relationship with her?
- Speaker #2
I think it was zero percent based on her gender and 100 percent based on her race. This was a pure hate crime, plain and simple. and But you had a town that was in perpetual denial. I mean, even today, they're in denial that this was a racist attack. I mean, abrasively. We can talk about, yes, her gender in that you had the killers who thought they could take her because she was so petite and by herself and isolated. And that so much, yes. But this was purely, purely out of cowardice. based in racism.
- Speaker #1
Now we'll tell the audience, I ain't going to give it away. It's not a cold case, but it didn't turn out the way that you think that it turned out either. So you guys need to go read the book to the end. I never give away my author's books at the end. It is a compelling story that you have to read and then spread it. You need to spread this case. Now Martinsville was known as a sundown town. Do you feel like some of those elements is still there today?
- Speaker #2
I think... It is in many ways, you know, somebody as simple as trying to put a plaque in her honor in that town. They didn't want it. They fought it for years. I mean, some young woman died here. You know, you failed this woman. You would think the very least is that you could put a plaque. And the answer was fighting, fighting, fighting. So that is what I found more interesting. uh the town from the beginning said no we're not a sundown town and yet in a newspaper article they said well and this was in 1968 to go well there was a group of uh black salesmen who came and we told them well it's you know it's sundown you should leave and this is almost a verbatim quote but we're not a sundown town there's denial and then there's denial and this is well we know we are but we're not going to admit it because if we admit it we have to uh say we're less than perfect, then we have to do something about it.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, and just to... Kind of back you up on that, the Nils, who's somebody you guys will get to know when you read this book, they were all in on trying to help Carol. They were all in on trying to get her case solved, all in on getting people put to jail. It was the Nils that in 2014 actually proposed that a monument be put in Martinsville in Carol's memory. The plans got scrapped, right? Because Norman Voiles said that he started getting flack about it. And he was the commissioner at that time. So it is very true that there was people out there that was trying to help her. So that's why I tell everybody, because I get it from both ends. Everybody who's white is not racist. Everybody, you know, they want to help out and do things. Now, you wrote this book in a very interesting way. So interesting. that I told my partner, LaDonna Humphrey, she has to read this book for no other reason because you were talking about documentaries, which is what she does as well. You gave away some very prominent trade secrets that Hollywood likes to keep close to the vest on how these things are written. Why did you do that? And did you get any backlash from that?
- Speaker #2
I haven't gotten backlash. I think a lot of researchers, for instance, people like me, they fight for this. A lot of times what ends up in the air is not what People who research these current cases, because you deal with the victims, victims' families, you deal with the detectives, the prosecutors who stay in touch with these families years after it's happened. So you advocate, you advocate. And I thought, you know, a lot of people don't understand how true crime is constructed. And this is how television does its thing. And if we're aware of how television shapes the narrative, and there's people who fall in the gaps. Once viewers understand how this happens, they can say, oh, this isn't acceptable. Or if some news show comes up that defies those confines, then people have an option. And they realize how sometimes their understanding of true crime is totally shaped by what they see. I mean, we talk about the missing or white woman syndrome, where if you look at a lot of true crime shows, you would think that this was an absolute crisis. And yet this is not the majority of people who get killed. every or get murdered every year but you wouldn't know it watching true crime tv so just let's wait a little bit from what you were doing you keep mentioning and you said in the book they have certain crimes that they would say okay this deserves a documentary did you have to go to bat for carol's story what was it like when you wanted this story to be done or when they called you on it i this one wasn't uh one of the ones i could pitch because we had certain parameters that the original... the detectives had to go on the show. So her case would have been knocked out right from the beginning because you couldn't get the lead detective to, even on the cold case file, to give an on-it care interview. And this is where a lot of cases fall through the cracks. If the lead detective doesn't want to give an interview, for whatever reason, it's gone. You can't do the story. So Carol, I would not be able to even pitch because they would say, well, did you get the lead detective? And the answer would be no. And they would say, okay, you can't do it. And yet this is such a historically important case that you would think that any true crime show would jump at the chance of covering her case because there's so many nuances. There's so many layers. It's riveting. I mean, Carol herself was a riveting figure. And you would think you would want, people would want to know our television show would want to cover this case. A lot of times you don't know if the detective might have issues, might have prejudice and stereotypes. They don't want to talk about certain cases. And you don't know that. So when you're going in, you're going in with a lot of yeses and nos. You can't do this. You can't do that. This just doesn't fit. And you can move the goalposts a little and they will say no. So this is why cases like Carol don't get on the air.
- Speaker #1
Since you've written this book, Have you seen anyone else's podcast or otherwise that has covered Carol's case?
- Speaker #2
I've seen podcasts and I've seen there is a recent, I understand, documentary on her. It came post after my book. So Carol is not forgotten. And it's really wonderful to see that people are talking about her and that they're reading about her and that we're not. that she hasn't been forgotten. I think that's important because, you know, this is somebody you could totally relate to even in 2025. You know, the gig economy, she had to take a gig to make ends meet because there was a strike. There was a lot of civil unrest at the time. She was a young woman making her way in the world, being very independent. She had hopes and dreams, and she had every wonderful quality a person can have and she got punished for it and that's something that you know we talk about fairness or a happy ending well where was carol's Even in death, it wasn't fair.
- Speaker #1
Now, I know the one thing that haunts me about the case, and I'll be honest with you, I didn't know anything about this case until I read your book. And my number one question to myself was, how come I never heard about this case? That shows you just how either camouflaged or hidden that it is when it's in plain view, right? So I went and looked up Carol Jenkins' whole Wikipedia page on the thing, right? But the one thing that haunts me about it is why would they let her go by herself? Knowing where she was at, why would you even take that chance? You're like, okay, I'm going to go this way. You go this way. We meet back here. Has that haunted you? Have you really thought about that a lot after writing the book?
- Speaker #2
I thought about that nonstop. That was beyond irresponsible. I mean, her and her friend, she wasn't the only black saleswoman that night. It was her friend, Paula, who... also was there that night. She got them the job. And both of them were so scared that they wanted to buy some sort of protection. And because that she knew about the problems of Martinsville because of her brother playing basketball there. So she was very scared. And not only did this person who was in charge leave her alone, he left Paula alone, who was also harassed that night. The only difference is Paula did not get attacked and Carol was killed. So when you think about this, here's two young girls. First, they're not girls. They were young women. But when you're my age, everybody who's 20 is a kid. But, you know, here's two young women. And, you know, if it was me, I would have said, okay, we don't have to cover all four quadrants. You and I will go here, and the other young man and you will go over together. That would have been the responsible thing to do. But I think this young man who is in charge. was following the rules, not understanding because he couldn't empathize and put himself in somebody else's shoes at the very best. At the worst, I don't know what was his motive. That should have never happened at all. She should have never been left alone.
- Speaker #1
So do you think that Carol was picked because of the fact that she was petite and Polly was the easiest one to get away with snatching?
- Speaker #2
I think so. She was petite. She was, I'm sure. nervous because she understood Martinsville a little better than the other people there. There were three other people she knew because of her brother, and she was scared. And I think she was just targeted because she was alone, she was petite, and that she was probably very afraid, I don't blame her, and that she was marked. And it wasn't anything she did, It wasn't her fault. At the end of the day, she was marked because... Somebody was just an evil person. And what was he doing there? We know what she was doing there. She was having a job, being productive, a member of society. But what was he doing there? So that's the question. What was this person that should have never actually even been free of being there?
- Speaker #1
Is any of Carol's family still alive? And if so, have you had the opportunity to talk to them?
- Speaker #2
No, I haven't. But her stepfather, he passed away. And he was the one that hired a private investigator trying to get her case reopened. Her family constantly tried. They would put advertising every year at the mark of her anniversary of her death so that people, the police, were not allowed to forget about her and then just let her case languish. So her family did as much as they could. and You know, it was decades before we actually had some sort of movement.
- Speaker #1
Well, I think the reason for that, too, is kind of like you said in the beginning. Back then, we didn't have social media. There was no such thing as podcasts. It wasn't people like me that I would find a case of this and run with it. I've actually been a part of cases where I've tried, you know, I've done shows on and tried to get it to reopen because the injustice behind it was just horrible. we know that Probably the justice that we seek for Carol's case will never come to fruition because the outcome of that, the guys that were accused of this does have family. Matter of fact, I think his daughter was instrumental in getting him caught up. What do you feel about his family? Do you feel like sorry for them? Have you talked to any of those guys? How does that go?
- Speaker #2
No, they were in denial. I mean, I don't blame his daughter. She was... a child when that happened and that would be traumatizing and she was terrified of him. But when he passed away, if you read his obituary, you would know that he was accused of murder. And I think that that was a grave injustice. I mean, we know what he did. And when a family turns a blind eye to it, you know, you're not doing them any favors. You're not doing your family any favors. And you're certainly not doing society any favors. People want to not talk about the dark stuff, the bad stuff. And they should. If you, you know, if you see yourself as a decent person. Yeah. Sometimes. Yeah. It's the luck of the draw. You have, you know, somebody in your family who's done something horrible and, you know, to least make amends, you should acknowledge that's what happened.
- Speaker #1
I think in my career, I only know of two cases where the children were not in denial. That was Jim Jones. You know, his son, Steven Jones has spoken about it many times and the daughter of BTK. She was shocked, but she never denied that that happened. But like in the cold case that I've covered and we've worked on for five years, the Black Dahlia case very much denies the beginning. Right. Because we know we believe we know who did it. His name is George Hodel. He has a son named Stephen Hodel, who became a detective because his sister called to say, hey, I think dad is responsible for this murder. So he became a LAPD cop to prove that his dad was not the killer. But the deeper he got into it, the more he could not deny it anymore. and became the biggest catalyst of saying he wrote like three books about it. So I think what it is, is my dad was a bad guy. He didn't murder anybody that I know of, but it's one of those things where you feel like if I admit to this, maybe I'm going to turn up to be just like my dad. Maybe he was going to think that I am, I'm going to get shunned. So we have to deny, deny, deny until it comes to a point to where we can't anymore. Um, so I do applaud his daughter. I know how hard that it was, you know, to bring that. to light and to finally bring him into justice. Where are you now on Carol Jenkins's case? How do you feel now the book has been written? What kind of feedback have you received from everyone?
- Speaker #2
Very positive feedback, especially because there are people who are interested in true crime television and how it's constructed. And a lot of times it's not obvious. We take things for granted. But there's also people who understood that. we can't forget about Carol. We can never forget about Carol because, you know, she is, you know, was the dream daughter. She was, you know, the role model for young women. I mean, so many young women right now, even now, live Carol's life. They, you know, pick up, they are very independent, the chips are down, they don't, they just pull themselves together, find something else and keep plowing through. She did everything right. that night. And it still went horribly wrong. And we always have to keep that in mind, that a lot of people like that just world hypothesis. Well, what was the victim doing here? Well, she was earning a living. What was he doing here? What was the killer doing there? We know what she was doing. And we also know what he was doing. So why are we focusing on why was she doing when she was being productive? She was helping her family. She was making her way in the world. She had hopes and dreams. I mean, she did not, you know, gnash her teeth and said, why me? She goes, I'm going to go and I'm going to get myself another job. And I'm just something totally different. She was used to working in a factory. And she goes, well, I'm going to go and do this. And she did it even though she was afraid. I mean, she was scared out of her mind there. And yet she didn't stop her. I mean, and she called the police and she went for help. I mean, if you have a checklist of everything you're supposed to do, she. crossed all that and got all the bonus points and that's something we have to consider as a society people go why didn't he do this or why didn't he do that well how do you know he didn't we can't talk to carol and say what else she did this is what we are you know we know some of it but she was you know savvy she was a resourceful resilient and got punished as i said before for it now the neil's is one of her biggest advocates
- Speaker #1
They received death threats, all kinds of stuff. Are they still alive? And did you ever get a chance to meet them?
- Speaker #2
Don Neal passed away. It's his wife as of now. Yeah, she's still alive. So they're around, but she's still alive. But I mean, this has been decades now. And that was the, she's basically the final non-family advocate Carol has.
- Speaker #0
And, you know, and her friend Paula. Paula was the other one who was there. And it was interesting because when I was doing research, Paula wrote a letter to the editor after Carol's murder and talked about the reality of the situation, which, you know, was not easy for her because you would, you know, your closest friend gets killed and you're scared to speak out. And yet she did anyway. and it was very interesting to see How many of her friends, you know, still went to bat for her. And some of them are not over here anymore. They've passed away. That's how long ago this case happened. But many people tried to keep her going, her spirit going. And it was very interesting to see from my perspective of somebody who's worked in true crime television to look at that. Because when you construct the shows, you don't do that. You focus on the case, the red herrings, the suspect. the timeline, but the more emotional factors of who was left behind and the devastation is not something we really talk about on this. And yet it's an integral part of understanding how homicides impact us individually and as a society.
- Speaker #1
So now that this book is out by a couple of years, what's next for Alexandra? Are you writing any more books?
- Speaker #0
I have one more coming out. It's on Now... basically an extension of uh a true crime television how to present it more ethically so it's called narrative criminology and it'll be coming out in a few months and it's all about uh how to present true crime television with a much more uh emotional uh lens and how we we maybe over focus on the perpetrator and not the victim and when we do it's usually you know these barnum statements well the victim, well, every time she came, she lit up the room with her smile. Like, well, that's a very nice thing to say, but who was this person? That, you know, is kind of an empty compliment. We don't get to know people. And when I was talking to victims' families, when there's a true crime researcher, there was things that didn't make it in the press that this person was really fascinating. They had a life, they had characters, they had quirks, and you never get to show this. And I thought, that's a real shame. We don't get to humanize. victims. They play a role, but they're not humanized. And that really bothered me. And this is a book that's attempt to remedy that problem.
- Speaker #1
So in closing, what would you say to someone and tell them why they should read Murder in the Sundown Town? And what do you not want them to forget about Carol Jenkins?
- Speaker #0
I don't want them to forget about anything about Carol Jenkins. I want them to remember she was a lovely young woman. that she was a role model and still is, and that she did the right things. And we can't forget that sometimes bad things happen to good people. And people, if they want to understand the construction of true crime television, to challenge their own assumptions of what is really going on, and to understand how badly botched Carol Jenkins' case is, they should read the book.
- Speaker #1
Anything you'd like to say to your fans and readers out there that may be listening to this show today?
- Speaker #0
Thank you for your support and for, you know, reading and going into my various journeys. And I love to share my stories. And I'm glad that you came along for the wild ride.
- Speaker #1
Well, Alexandra, thank you for being on the show. Merton and Sundown Town is a great book. It is truly a case that no one should ever forget. And those of you that's listened to me that has. any kind of platform that's dealing with true crime. You need to pick up this case. You need to do this case. Remember that you may reach somebody that I may not. Everyone doesn't know who I am or what show that I run, but your artist does know you. And we need to keep this case out there in the open. Alexander, anytime you want to come back, I'm going to read some of your other books. Maybe we have you back on, talk about some of those. You're always welcome to come back on the show.
- Speaker #0
Thank you so much. It was such a pleasure speaking with you.
- Speaker #1
Thank you. All right, guys, that was the wonderful Alexandra Kitty. Get your copy of Murder in a Sundown Town on Amazon. Anywhere else you can buy great books. I will leave a link to that in the show notes of this show. Thank you for joining us today. I know you have many choices in true crime and interview podcasts, and I am grateful that I am just one of your choices. You have been listening to the only three-faceted podcast of its kind. Be good to yourself and each other. And always remember, always stay humble. An act of kindness can make someone's day. Other love and compassion can go a long way. And remember that there is an extraordinary person in all of us. I'll catch you guys on the next one.
- Speaker #2
Don't forget to rate, comment, and subscribe. Join us on social media. One link to the link tree has it all. Feel free to drop us a line at truecrimeandauthors at gmail.com. Cover art and logo designed by Arsliff. Sound mixing and editing by David McClam. Intro script by Sophie Wild and David McClam. Theme music, Legendary by New Alchemist. Introduction and ending credits by Jackie Voice. See you next time on True Crime, Authors, and Extraordinary People.
