#114 - Building the Saint-Emilion of tomorrow: Valérie Befve, CEO of Château Dassault | Wine Makers Show: the wine podcast

Description

Is Saint-Émilion already what it needs to be, or is its future still being written? For Valérie Befve, the answer is clear: Bordeaux must keep building, adapting, and rethinking itself to remain at the forefront of fine wine. As CEO of Château Dassault, the Grand Cru Classé owned by the Dassault family since 1955, she is actively shaping what the next chapter of the region will look like.

Over the course of our conversation, Valérie traces her unusual path from running her own family winery to leading one of the largest estates in Saint-Émilion. We dig into the singular Saint-Émilion classification that makes every estate re-sit an exam every ten years, the gulf between north and south-facing terroirs, and how the region is adapting to a tougher market.

From hospitality and wine tourism to grape-variety choices made for a warming climate, this is a clear-eyed case for why Bordeaux is anything but finished, and why its best value-for-money wines might be the smartest bottles to put in your cellar right now.

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Transcription

Speaker #0
Hi Valérie.
Speaker #1
Hi Antoine.
Speaker #0
Thank you very much for welcoming us. We are currently in the tasting room of Château d'Assaut, just above your winemaking facilities. So I have beautiful views on the wines that are going to be in bottles in a few years, next year I guess.
Speaker #1
Next month actually.
Speaker #0
And you have a beautiful view over the vineyard just behind me. Thank you very much for welcoming us. We'll talk about a lot of things, about Saint-Emilion, about your career in the wine industry, about Chateau d'Asso, of course. But first, can you introduce yourself?
Speaker #1
Of course. Hello, Antoine. It's very nice meeting you and having you here. I'm Valérie Bev and I'm the CEO of the Vigneau Bleu d'Asso. I started here as the sales manager seven years ago and I've been... promoted last year as the CEO of the venue. Before that, I had my own wineries, the family wineries, and I was the winemaker there. And my grandfather was a winemaker as well in the Médoc, in Margaux, actually. So I crossed the river to come to Saint-Emilion. That happens sometimes.
Speaker #0
Which is still okay. It's not totally the right bank.
Speaker #1
He was still talking to me after that. So, yes, that was okay for him.
Speaker #0
So, you grew up in the vineyard?
Speaker #1
I grew up in the vineyard in the middle, as I said, and after I was in Bordeaux. And I've always said, I'll never do that job. So, as you can see, you should never say never. I worked for several years for the Groupe Accor, which is… hospitality group and I was in the sales department but
Speaker #0
I wanted to be back to my roots and went back to school at 30 years old and decided to be back in the in the wine business and so in at Accor you so you were doing sales so it's like selling hospitality to companies I guess like a hospitality plan for their you I don't know, like workers to go here and there. Exactly.
Speaker #1
I was only dealing with business part with the companies, being in charge of all the big companies in France. And I was specialized for the West of France and selling hospitality for all the hotels all over the world. So that was very interesting. It helped me knowing very well the economy of the region. And that was always linked to the wine as well, as we are in a wine region and a lot of companies were also in the wine industry. But I wanted to be back really to my roots.
Speaker #0
And so what happened at 30 years old? You start a new diploma. So you said you were a winemaker in your kind of previous life, previous professional life. So it means you started like DNO or something like winemaking diploma?
Speaker #1
Indeed. Actually, I didn't graduate for any diploma like DNO. But actually, I went back to that because with my husband, we had the opportunity to buy a small vineyard in Saint-Emilion, to be a partner to buy a vineyard and also a wine merchant, a wine company. So we bought the both of it. And I was the one who had to take care of it. So I did a lot of training and a lot of experiments with the council, local council, Conseil des Vins and also the university. And I was also hiring people who were very good in their department, like viticulture and also analogy. And I learned with them.
Speaker #0
How is it? to start entrepreneurship by taking over such a such a place and such like a structure must be half difficult because it's like the context we know in my industry is not super favorable for small structure or for independent structure so how is it to to be like back to it in in that way it's first first passionating you
Speaker #1
Of course, because you're learning all the time and you're really into it. So I really love that. And I'm still in the industry. So it means that that was a good choice. It's also very stressful because I took over in 2006, which wasn't an easy vintage to start with. and um We had to be really aware of everything and lots of male due pressure and also managing the staff. I was a woman, I'm still a woman, but I was a woman at that time, 30 years old, with people who were 50 or 60, mainly men. We're not used to being managed by a woman. So we had to find a way to talk to each other, listen to each other and find a way to talk to each other. a good way to work together.
Speaker #0
So you started there in 2006 and you stayed like 10 years? 10 years,
Speaker #1
yeah, until 2018.
Speaker #0
Okay, so a bit more than 10 years. And then you sold everything?
Speaker #1
I sold my shares and arrived at Chateau d'Asso because there was quite a big challenge here for the sales because the Chateau d'Asso used to be 24 hectares, went up. to now 39 hectares. And there is also another winery called Chateau La Fleur, which spreads over 20 hectares. So totally there are 60 hectares of vineyard. And the manager at that time needed someone more experimented in sales.
Speaker #0
When you double the volume of production, you need to have someone to sell these bottles. Exactly.
Speaker #1
They are two points in making wines. They are making wines, but also being able to sell it.
Speaker #0
How is the process to, either you now as a general manager or back in when you were hired, what is the process to hire a head of sales or senior sales for a winery? What are you looking for in terms of profiles? What are the qualities that you must have to do this job?
Speaker #1
First of all, I think it's important to know quite well how the Place de Bordeaux works. Um, it's a little bit different from all over, all other places in the world. So you have the courtier, the negos, and, um, so that helps a lot knowing that. but first of all, you definitely have to be a good salesman or saleswoman, be sensitive to, all the the your customers' expectations and making sure you're answering to that. And also one very important thing is to be able to speak another language, especially English. It's even better if you can speak Chinese or Japanese or Portuguese, but at least English. It's necessary. And I actually am saying that, but I've just hired a salesperson. And she has never worked in Bordeaux. She comes from Champagne. Because I wanted someone also who had a different background to be able to not be influenced by all the little habits we have here and being more open.
Speaker #0
Bringing new ideas and not staying in between the same people all the time.
Speaker #1
Exactly.
Speaker #0
So you arrived, I guess, if now you're general manager, it means that the last six years must have globally been a success. But how was it? What were your goals? What is the trajectory that you had over these six years before becoming a general manager?
Speaker #1
Well, you mean for the sales?
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
That was to establish a sales strategy. And so to strengthen the links with the negotiations and with our customers all over the world. And making sure ordering some Chateau d'Asso is an habit for them and just one shot. So that was the main goal. And also for the other wineries, Chateau Lafleur, making sure we find... customers that are quite um have some legacy and make sure they they enjoy and that their customers will still still order our wines yeah plus i guess i have a kind of a story around chateau la fleur and not just be like yeah it's the other other wine of chateau d'assaut or something like that exactly um and there are two wines quite different uh even they are almost at the same place. The terroir is completely different. The exposure is different. So that... also makes a kind of wine with a different profile. And that's great for the team here. And also for me, having two wineries, but with two different profiles.
Speaker #0
Yeah, you have an amazing map just behind you. I'm not sure we're going to see it at the camera. I'm not sure it's in it, but... We'll potentially add a picture of it or something. But yeah, we can see that you have like two zones, one blue, one orange. And I guess it's the terroir. And so this is the different estates that you have.
Speaker #1
Exactly. And just a quick summary to explain you. Chateau d'Asso is exposed on the north face of the vineyard. All the plots are facing north. And Chateau Lafleur, all the plots are facing south. And it makes a huge difference, especially with global warming. Dassault has naturally more freshness in swines because it has less sunny exposure compared to Chateau Lafleur. And Chateau Lafleur, we usually harvest at least two or three weeks ahead from Chateau Dassault because of that exposure.
Speaker #0
So for people listening, the sun has a huge impact on the maturity of the grape? because the more sun you have, the more sugar you will have inside the grape. And this is the sugar that turns into alcohol. So that's why the more you're in the south, the more you have alcohol in your wines, generally speaking. And so that's why you have such a difference between north and south.
Speaker #1
Exactly.
Speaker #0
When did the Dassault family took over the estate?
Speaker #1
In 1955. We celebrated the 70th anniversary last year. And in fact, Marcel Dassault, who's a very famous French engineer.
Speaker #0
The founder of Dassault?
Speaker #1
The founder of Dassault Aviation Company was a man crazy about wine. And he had one of the nicest wine cellars in Paris. And one of these factories was and still is in Bordeaux. So after the Second World War, when he was having customers, visiting the facilities in Marignac, he would take them also visiting a winery, which is the pretty much common visit that you can do in the area. I would do the same. Exactly. And he said, why not having my own winery? And he came here, walked down in the park and really fell in love with the estate. So back in that time, it was named Chateau Couperie. And he decided to rename it with his last name, Chateau Dassault. And it's still in the same family since. Now the grandchildren are running it.
Speaker #0
All right. So it's been 70 years.
Speaker #1
70 years. Exactly.
Speaker #0
And so for the 2025 vintage, are you, so you're releasing it today, from today, in these last weeks, because we are in April 2026, so right in the premiere week. Exactly. Are you doing a special event, label? something for this anniversary?
Speaker #1
We did a special event last month in Paris with journalists and sommeliers in Paris. And we'll have a special release of the 2023 vintage with a specific label drawn by a local artist. And for the 2025 vintage, which will be the 70th, vintage made by the winery, we might have another surprise. But you'll have to wait and come back in a year or two to know more about it.
Speaker #0
All right. So stay tuned. You know that. You need to follow in the next year. Yeah, because basically you're releasing 2025 to the professionals now, to the place of Bordeaux, but it's not really available to the public and made available to the public. So that's why you have this.
Speaker #1
It will be available next year. So we made a specific magnum I'm I'm to release this year on the 2023 vintage. And we picked the 2023 vintage because it's the first vintage where we have changed a little bit Dassault style and the winemaking process. We have a new wine cellar. We have new plots coming into the final blend. and it's also... The vintage that we find that is the more approachable younger compared to the previous vintages that we made, which were a little bit more structured and you needed to wait longer before drinking it. So we thought that would be interesting to have that 23 vintage turned into a special level.
Speaker #0
Nice. So tell me about it, because in your... experiences when we're talking about your experiences i stopped just before you become managing director i told you how was the sales uh what do you have so uh one year ago basically you become general manager How does that happen and what are your challenges?
Speaker #1
That happened that the previous manager decided to do something else and the president of the company called me and said, well, Valerie, would you like to take over and follow up on that mission? And I accepted with joy because I really liked it. This place, I like working for Dassault family. And there are so many things to do here. We've done a lot, but we are not at the end of it. So that was a real pleasure. I knew very well the team as I've been working with them for seven years now. And we get along very well. And so very happy about that. It wasn't the easiest time for taking that. new job because um the industry and the wine business is a little bit tougher right now but i'm convinced that we have lots to do and that uh you know it's a lot of things you have hills and up and downs and maybe we're a little bit more in the downs now for the border wines but uh and the wine in general but it will go up again for sure and so you're um you
Speaker #0
Challenges and next steps. So you have this international context about wines in general, alcohol beverage in general, but wines in particular, and Bordeaux wines even more specific, decreasing. I guess one of the solutions in Bordeaux wines is quality, like the top-notch wines will, I hope, never be in turmoil or in difficulties. Is it the path you're following or your... Like, basically, how do you answer to this crisis?
Speaker #1
Well, I'm convinced of one thing, is that we have to open the bottles, make sure people drink our wines, taste it, and put back the wine into our meals. And the wines have never been that good. The quality is the highest we have ever had. All the wineries, all the estates have made lots and lots of efforts about that. So the wines haven't been at that quality level as ever. So that's something we have to make sure people know about it. I'm convinced also that we have the best value for money ever. And we just have to make sure. People all over the world know about that. We have to be and keep being the best ambassador as possible and make sure we train also the young generations. They have to know more about the wine and make sure also the sommeliers are trained well by us, by the CVB, by all the different... organizations specialized in wine because they are our best ambassadors as well and there is no way that we don't go back to a wine consumption maybe the wine consumption won't increase but at least we'll stabilized um we've all the statistics said we don't we drink less but we drink best quality so that's really something we have to rely on um
Speaker #0
and i just circling back on the best value for money uh i totally agree and i like i think there are some estates especially in burgundy by the way but i love i still love burgundy region but that you can't even think of drinking because it's way too expensive uh to to find them but on the other hand especially in bordeaux it feels like the the price value uh ratio is
Speaker #1
insanely good and it's like looks like it's the best time to buy some bottle wines and have them sit in a cellar and drinking them in a few years when you're ready for it exactly and you've said everything drinking them we have to make sure we open a bottle and we drink it and we're also making wine now a bit more with a young approach as i was saying before because a lot of people don't want to wait 20 years as we used to. before drinking and opening a bottle. So we have to make sure we make it wine to age, but also being approachable younger. And it's something you share. We have to adapt also to the new way of drinking. We've noticed you don't sit at a table for family lunch or dinner or friends dinner. It's young people do it more like an appetizer, a drink thing. So making wines that are approachable younger makes it easier also to share it easily and in a less conventional way as we used to. So we have to adapt.
Speaker #0
to that. 100%. And the best bottle is an empty bottle with good friends.
Speaker #1
Exactly.
Speaker #0
So you worked at Accor before. I have two questions around that. First, my first question is how do you see the hospitality, the wine hospitality in the Bordeaux region?
Speaker #1
That's a good question. Is it a tricky question? No, no, no,
Speaker #0
no tricks. Just your opinion about it and like your strategic view around it.
Speaker #1
I think, and we are probably responsible for that, but there was a lack of Bordeaux bottles in hospitality and in restaurants for a long time, during several years. And that has been a big mistake. Probably, maybe because winemakers were a little bit too proud or didn't need to sell locally, as they were selling very well all over the world. But that really helped the border bashing thing to happen. There are other reasons, of course, but we're... Working hard on that to change that way. And I'm quite impressed to see how many restaurants now are back into Bordeaux wines. And I thank them for that because that's really very important. Like you were talking about Burgundy. Burgundy is so strong about that. When you go in a restaurant in Beaune, 99% of the wines are from Burgundy. and there it is. Right. I was in Spain a few months ago and there were only the wines from their area. So, of course, as we host people that come from all different countries and a lot of people from the wine business, it's great to be able to offer them other regions, but Bordeaux has to be strong on the wine list. And it's even better if they are able to make it at a good price. Because that's another point. I know it's a tricky thing because I know that's important for them to make a margin on wine because they have a small margin on food. However, you can notice it everywhere. If the wine is at a good price, you'll sell bottle. If it's too expensive, people at the best will have a glass of wine and at the worst, won't drink. and bottles have to be back on the table. And for that, you need to have a good price. And they'll make money on the volume. Of course, the margin will be smaller, but they'll make margin on the volume.
Speaker #0
Yeah, it's true that when you go to a restaurant and you see the price of some bottles, you're like, maybe I will drink it at home after the dinner or in another setting. But yeah, it's true that sometimes some restaurants tend to be a... A bit too much on the margin side of the things. Exactly.
Speaker #1
So regarding hospitality, we're not completely at the end of it, but there is a large improvement on that. And that's a good point because we all have to make an effort for that. Duclos Wine Negos is making a wonderful event, Bordeaux on the Table, at a very selection of wines with a very small margin for restaurants. And that's great. That's the best communication that we have and the best offer that we can have for the consumers.
Speaker #0
And second question regarding hospitality, but more from a stakeholder perspective in it. How do you see the, like, maybe to give you a bit of context, Marine and I are living in Hong Kong. And so one of the things we thought of doing was basically bring tourists. being Chinese and Hong Kongers, to Bordeaux region and to wine regions globally. And when we were looking at Bordeaux, the things that... we analyzed is that the hospitality offer is a bit restricted like the number of places with rooms that you can book is pretty low the quality of the rooms are like there is a big variety from an international standard you have things that are very authentic and very beautiful i would love to go there but i don't see hong kongers or chinese going there because like noisy old furniture that type of stuff which is not very international standard I'm Tom. um difficult to book online no agency commission so for us the only margin possible was on our client but not on the people for who we are bringing business so like all these type of things made us think wow it's actually difficult to organize a trip in like the number of accommodation the number of activities everything is like restricted how do you analyze that and is it a priority for you with this hospitality background to develop something like that here.
Speaker #1
Maybe you didn't get the right relations. Because listening to you, I think we can talk about that later on. But I agree. That's maybe one thing. We're not listening enough to the consumers from the different places. A lot of places have their French approach. but not international approach. I think it's evolving. It's improving in different places. And as far as we are concerned at Chateau d'Assault, we won't have rooms for rent immediately. That might happen in three or four years. But we have the potential at the Chateau, but we'll do it step by step. part of my strategy as you were asking before but i have other things to do before that um and i understand some asian customers um have some expectations and we need to answer to that um there are one or two projects in saint-emilion i can talk to you later on and that might answer to your expectations but it won't be at chateau d'assault right now we'll have to talk about that in thought.
Speaker #0
But you're still welcoming people to visit and to do some activities?
Speaker #1
So far, we are not open to the public. But that's something I've decided and will be possible next year. So we'll start to open the doors, as we say, to the public.
Speaker #0
A beautiful place to do it.
Speaker #1
Exactly. And we want to share our experience and to have that Dasco experience. And I'm convinced that the people who come and visit, they are our best ambassadors all over the world. At least if they're happy with it, but I'm sure they will.
Speaker #0
Amazing. So next year, if you want to visit Chatedasso, it will be the right moment. And then to be honest, I depicted a very bad place to visit, but you can still come to Bordeaux. You will find the great places to sleep, to have fun and to do things. Plenty of good places for... eating also good stuff so no worries you can still travel to bordeaux but it was hard for us to organize that in a in a good way um so uh this was my question we got my questions regarding your experience at a core and how you like transit like your strategic perspectives on that if we go back to the moment when you were owning your business and considering the type of vineyard that you had at that time. point uh what were you doing in this business that you owned that you like kind of applied here at chateau d'assault in a larger structure and and maybe with more investment power and like firepower around your project I would say here it's definitely easier regarding investments because I'm quite lucky to have Dassault family that believe in the Chateau and they have the financial power to invest and say, OK, we can look at the five years or 10 years investment and we believe on that. When I was running my estate, we didn't have that time frame. When we were investing one euro, I needed it back right away. So that made it a little bit more difficult. But what helped me a lot here, learning from my past, is that knowing that every single detail is important. to make a very good wine and to make it exceptional. And when you have a small winery, of course, it's easier to make it, but you are very precise for every step of it. And that's really something I'm asking to the team here, being very precise for every single task we have, starting at the vineyard. in the cellar for bottling, for sales, and so on. So that's really something that helped me. And the second thing that helped me a lot is that on a small winery, I was convinced that I needed to know exactly how to make every single task. So the first thing I did when I arrived is I took driving license for the tractor and being able to drive the tractor in the vineyard and being able to... drive the tractor to lift the pallets and so on. And I was able to do everything. And that's completely different when you're a manager and you know exactly, well, that I know how to do that. I know to do a pumping over, filling in the barrels and also pruning the vines and so on. I personally think it makes the relationship easier with your staff.
Speaker #1
It's a good side quest as well to try to drive a tractor. I will try to learn that in the future.
Speaker #0
It's not that difficult, though.
Speaker #1
So Château d'Assaut is part of Classement des Vins de Saint-Emilion, Saint-Emilion ranking. Can you give us a bit more background about how Saint-Emilion wine ranking works?
Speaker #0
It's quite unique. actually. The classification started in 1955 compared to the middle when it was in 1855, so a century later. And this classification compared to all the other classifications is revised every 10 years. So every 10 years, we have to apply to that classification and we can ask to be upgraded as first classified growth. only apply to stay at classified growth. If you're not classified, if you're a Grand Cru, you can also apply to it. So that's something very important to keep in mind because it really means that there is not a single winery in the area wants to be classified that do not think every day when you have to make a choice in vinification, in the vineyard or whatever, thinking, is it? allowed for the classification or is it in the way the class classified growth should be and it really force everyone to increase the quality and for me uh and i'm talking to the consumers when you see a classified growth on the label it's a guarantee of quality especially because it's revised every 10 years so it's not something you keep for life The main difference with the Médoc is that in the Médoc, it's the name of the château which is classified. So they can buy a piece of land from their neighbor. They'll make, for instance, I don't know, Château Lingebage will buy a piece of land, a plot. They will be able to make Château Lingebage with that new plot. In Saint-Emilion, you're not allowed to. You'll have to wait the new classification, ask to classify that.
Speaker #1
land and then you'll be able to make wine out of it because in Saint-Emilion it's the terroir and the land which is classified that's why from what I see behind you so Chateau La Fleur for example yes I don't know if it has a classification it's not Saint-Emilion Grand Cru but not Grand Cru classified Grand Cru classé exactly and
Speaker #0
for instance in 2022 before 2022 we had another winery called Château Faurit-Souchard. which is just across the road. And in 2022, last classification, we asked... to include Château Foritzouchard in Château Dassault. So we applied for it and we filled in a big file and that was accepted. But we could not do it by ourselves.
Speaker #1
And so now you integrated this winery to Château Dassault?
Speaker #0
Exactly.
Speaker #1
So that's why we were able to produce a bit more. It's a very interesting point, this classification. So it's like every 10 years. So last time, 2022. So next one would be 32. So you're right in the middle.
Speaker #0
Right in the middle. And we'll have to start filling in the files in 2030. So only for three and a half more years before working hard again, which is very interested in that classification and that everyone has to keep in mind, is that the console that look at that, the classification, we'll look at the vineyard, how we work in the vineyard, how we work in the cellar, the winemaking process, the aging process, and all the process, but also there is a tasting, a blind tasting over the last 10 years, over the last 10 vintages. And you need to have at least 14 out of 20 for that tasting. So it's really linked to the wine and to the quality of the wine. Of course, if you work properly in your vineyard and in the cellar and everything, you should have the quality in the wine. And the blind tasting is over the last 10 vintages. Also to make sure the wine has the capacity to age. That's our DNA. The wine should age at least 10 years.
Speaker #1
That's a crazy work for classification. I'm not sure that there are a lot of comparisons possible in France. I'm not super aware of other classification that have the same dynamic rating of every estate inside of it and deciding if you stay, you upgrade, you downgrade.
Speaker #0
I'm pretty sure we are the only one.
Speaker #1
It's a really crazy thing that it's made by an association of producers, like by the appellation. because you always have like the journalists and critics who give points and stuff every year. But this rhythm and this organization is very impressive.
Speaker #0
It's like passing an exam. I mean, and you choose to pass the exam to go to university or whatever. So we do the same as wine growers. We decide to pass the exam. And I can tell you a lot of wineries want to be into it. I heard they were more than... 250 wineries that applied to it in 2022 and only 84 of us were um how do we say rewarded so um it represented about a little bit more than 10 percent of the total number of wineries i'm
Speaker #1
shocked because i didn't know that at all i thought that Like a lot of wineries were Saint-Emilion Grand Cru Classé, but no, actually it's Saint-Emilion Grand Cru.
Speaker #0
Grand Cru, exactly. You have either Saint-Emilion by itself or Saint-Emilion Grand Cru. And when you are Grand Cru, you can apply to the Grand Cru Classé.
Speaker #1
And Grand Cru, everyone can be?
Speaker #0
You choose for it. You need to age your wine a certain time. There are some...
Speaker #1
So it's basically like production guidelines. If you follow them, you're Grand Cru.
Speaker #0
Exactly. Exactly.
Speaker #1
Okay, so... What?
Speaker #0
The quality is also important because there is a tasting.
Speaker #1
Ah, there is a tasting for Grand Cru. Exactly.
Speaker #0
But that's more accessible.
Speaker #1
So in the pyramid, it's like wine from Saint-Emilion. This is everyone in Saint-Emilion. Saint-Emilion Grand Cru, you need to follow production guidelines plus the tasting, but it's relatively accessible. And then Saint-Emilion Grand Cru Classé, this where? It starts to be difficult. It's more selective. More selective. And then you have Grand Cru Classé B and Grand Cru Classé A. B and A, sorry.
Speaker #0
You have then the first Grand Cru Classé. Ah, yeah, first Grand Cru Classé. Premier Grand Cru Classé. A, there are two of it. Fijac and Pavie. And then you have the others. commonly a lot of people call B, but in fact, it's not called B.
Speaker #1
It's just premier grand cru classé. And then grand cru classé. Okay. It's a good lesson about Saint-Emilion. If you're in the middle of a wine exam, it's a good moment for you to have these notions come back. So yeah, next time, 2032, we hope that that is going to work. What's the strategy you want to... You want to have Lafleur on its own as it is a specific personality or you want to integrate? No,
Speaker #0
we want to keep Lafleur on its own. The terroir is different. We're working as we want. We work every day to make it classy. We'll see if we apply for it. But we definitely make it the best way as we can. But we want to keep it separate.
Speaker #1
Okay. In your presentation at the beginning of this episode, you said, I'm the CEO of Dassault Vineyards. Is it because you're thinking of expanding to other regions, other places, or because you already have basically two vineyards, so we can say vineyards?
Speaker #0
Actually, it's kind of both. It's Dassault Wine Estates is the name of the... The structure that owns the land. So there is Chateau Lafleur and Chateau Dassault, as we talked about. But Dassault Mouin Estates also owns shares in other venues. One in Burgundy called Clos des Varouales. Okay. There is also shares in Chateau Chauval Blanc. Okay. 5%. And Chateau Evangile in Pomerol. And Rieux Sec in Sauternes. And also Champagne Tétanger. so there are different other wineries we are linked with however I'm only in charge of Saint-Emilion that's the rest is basically participation it's participation and minority participation you can't do that much investing in Saint-Emilion I think we are quite good so far but we are always looking what's happening somewhere else. It depends on the opportunities. Today, it seems like there are some opportunities showing up, but we haven't found exactly what we would like to have.
Speaker #1
Okay, so maybe in 10 years, we'll have a different... We'll see. We'll have an episode two in another place in 10 years. I had a question. These different participation. Forgot about it. Marine will edit. Sorry, guys. No, no edit. No edit from Marine. Never mind. It will be for next time. Did you hire a new head of sales? Now that you're managing director, you also manage, you continue to manage sales.
Speaker #0
I'm continuing to managing sales. I have a sales rep. that helped me and she helps me quite well so far and i will probably hire someone else pretty soon but we try to set up nicely and we'll see how it's going on okay
Speaker #1
so my question is back in mind um so we were talking just about acquisition and like expanding but it's so you you have like 60 hectares not planted planted is a 50 hectare but it's big i mean especially for santa million you have some estate like seven eight exactly we're one of the biggest actually what's
Speaker #0
happening is that at dasso we did a lot of pulling out like sorry i start again And 10 years ago, we really studied exactly how was our terroir. We digged out. in different places in all the plots to know exactly our terroir and to make sure we had the right grape variety on the right terroir. After this study, we decided to pull out 25% of our vineyard to replant the right grape variety on the right terroir. So we are still doing that. uh will be at the end of it in 2035 so we still have seven years more to go um but that actually that's great because we decided to plant more cabernet franc um because we have terroir and soil that really fits well with the Cabernet Franc, a little bit more Cabernet Sauvignon as well. We were quite high in Merlot so far, 75%. We'll go down to 60%. So that will have an impact on the style and the profile of the wine, but that will be a lot more adapted. And also, that's perfect with the climate change. And so we have to go back to be back on your question. We have 30 hectares planted at that time, but we still have all the vines that we need to pull out. And we still have very young vines that we planted last year that are not in production yet.
Speaker #1
So this echoes super well when you were talking about like long term investment and seeing about 10 years. When you do things like when you have 50 hectares and you decide to pull out, I don't know, like 15 or 20 hectares and then replant little at little, then your production varies a lot. Exactly. The time that then the vine grows and starts producing nice grapes, you have like five years minimum, I guess, to start filling something. So it's a lot of like treasury management and production management to do, I guess, for you.
Speaker #0
Exactly. Yeah, that's... Always a little bit tricky and we always want to produce more, but we have to be patient. Wine is all about patience.
Speaker #1
True, it's the nature at work.
Speaker #0
Exactly.
Speaker #1
Thank you very much for all of this, Valérie. I think we have a nice, very nice episode together. I have three last questions. First, is there something we didn't mention, but that was very important for you to mention?
Speaker #0
Maybe I can mention this new cellar. You talked a little bit about it, but that was also a big investment. We built it in 2022 and we're very happy with it. That was definitely to be able to make wine with a wider capacity, but also to improve the quality. And we are very happy about it. It's not an architectural. I don't know how you say it in English, but we wanted to be sober, but very practical for the team. Very happy with it. And also one point is that we want it also to be eco, sustainable and great for the environment. So all the building has no AC, for instance. which is quite rare when you see all the windows that we have, except in the tasting room. And that really helps the quality of the wine. So we're very happy about it.
Speaker #1
Nice. And so next year, we'll be maybe able to visit it and have this view. And we'll put some pictures and videos on our Instagram. So you will have a little look on this place.
Speaker #0
More than welcome to be back whenever you want.
Speaker #1
So last question. Do you have a book recommendation for me?
Speaker #0
Yeah, actually, it's not literature or whatever, but that's really the message which is into it that I really like. It's the book Vigneron, written by Lord Gasparotto. Just talking about this lady who's a wine lover, writing about wine but wanted As always, I wanted to make her own wine. And the story really ends by this topic, which is wine is a story for life. It's really when you're into wine, it's really for the life. It's not easy. Definitely not easy. Not as easy as we think. But it's just a question about patience. And that's... a book which I really liked. And I really shared a lot of things with Laure Gasparotto when I was reading it.
Speaker #1
Yeah, I love the book. I really appreciate Laure. She came on the podcast a few years ago now, and she sometimes listens. So if you're listening.
Speaker #0
I've never met Laure, but hi, Laure.
Speaker #1
She's super kind and super interesting. And what I like about what she did in the South like that. is that she impersonates a journalist that is really skin in the game into making wines. And I've seen people, like I don't even remember their names, but you know, you do press travels with some journalists and they ask like... questions like oh but why don't you do why don't you do this this specific way and themselves they are like living paris city center uh just drinking wines uh freely uh whenever they they want because it's sample sent to them and i'm not doing uh stuff with their hands and so it's a bit frustrating when you see that especially when you're a winemaker yourself i guess and uh laura is the opposite of that she understands perfectly uh the wine she did wines herself and she and really has this passion about wine, this lifestyle about wine. So I love this.
Speaker #0
And what I like is that sometimes the message, especially the message is you should always respect what you're drinking. It might not be your taste, but you have to respect the work which is made behind it because it's a lot of work. And every person is doing its best to make it nice and enjoyable. So even if it's not your taste. respect the product 100 percent um do you have a recent wine that you taste and and you loved it definitely and actually it's really new brand new because it was last week and i had a chance to taste a 1916 vintage from chateau malartic la gravier it was at a specific dinner during the en primeur. And... Above the wine, what I loved about it is that thinking I'm drinking a wine which is 100 years old. And it was made during the First World War.
Speaker #1
That's true.
Speaker #0
And it was probably the woman who made that wine because the guys were in the war and fighting. And that made so much emotion. That's what I really like into wine. When you go back in the past, that's the only thing that you can drink with that age. You cannot eat a beef that is even 20 years old. So when you're drinking wine, which is older, it really brings you back in the past. And in some vintages, you were even not born, but really make you think about all that. So that created a lot of emotion at that tasting.
Speaker #1
Amazing. And finally, who is the next person I should interview?
Speaker #0
Definitely, Colline Golo, who's the artist who drew the new label for Chateau Dassault's 70th anniversary. Colline is a wonderful artist from Bordeaux, young. And I'm thinking of her because when she came here, she visited it. And talk to all the people who are working here. And she very easily created a label representing so well the spirit of the place and of the wine and of the people. So she's very special.
Speaker #1
It could be very interesting to have this point of view on the wines as well. And on how do you build a label? Very interesting.
Speaker #0
And wine. is a kind of art. So art and wine is linked. And you can see you have a piece of art behind you as well from Bernard Venet. So I think it's all, all is linked.
Speaker #1
Thank you very much Valérie for this conversation. It was an amazing moment. I learned a lot of things. I revised my Grand Cru Classé from Saint-Emilion. Thanks to you.
Speaker #0
I can't tell you more. There's a long list of things to talk about.
Speaker #1
And I learned a lot about Château d'Assaut. I can't wait to... taste it because it smells super good since we we started i just have this uh disorder since we we started so i can't wait to to taste it um thank you very much for for this conversation but if you like this episode don't forget to subscribe share it to two people who need to drink more centimillion wines i
Speaker #0
see you soon bye bye bye thank you antoine cheers It smells good. It's a way to decant.

About Wine Makers Show: the wine podcast

Join us on Wine Makers Show, the podcast that uncorks the world of wine! Hosted by Antoine, a passionate entrepreneur and wine enthusiast, this show dives deep into the stories, expertise, and journeys of the people who make wine extraordinary: winemakers, sommeliers, vintners, and industry trailblazers.

What to Expect

In-Depth Interviews: Hear from top figures in the wine world, from renowned vintners to unsung heroes, as they share their experiences, challenges, and secrets to success.
Club Episodes: Explore specific wine topics, from production techniques to tasting tips, in focused, occasional deep dives.
A Journey of Discovery: Whether you're a novice or a connoisseur, we break down the complexities of wine to make it accessible and engaging.

Why Listen?

Wine Makers Show is your gateway to understanding wine like never before. With a focus on storytelling and sharing, Antoine brings you closer to the heart of the wine industry, one conversation at a time. Expect authentic discussions, insider knowledge, and a celebration of the craft and culture of wine.

Connect with Us

Visit winemakersshow.com to get in touch or suggest a guest.
Email Antoine directly at winemakersshow@gmail.com.
Follow the journey on Instagram: @winemakersshow
Join the Academy and learn everything about wine

Tune in to Wine Makers Show and sip on the stories behind every bottle!

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

About Wine Makers Show: the wine podcast

What to Expect

In-Depth Interviews: Hear from top figures in the wine world, from renowned vintners to unsung heroes, as they share their experiences, challenges, and secrets to success.
Club Episodes: Explore specific wine topics, from production techniques to tasting tips, in focused, occasional deep dives.
A Journey of Discovery: Whether you're a novice or a connoisseur, we break down the complexities of wine to make it accessible and engaging.

Why Listen?

Connect with Us

Visit winemakersshow.com to get in touch or suggest a guest.
Email Antoine directly at winemakersshow@gmail.com.
Follow the journey on Instagram: @winemakersshow
Join the Academy and learn everything about wine

Tune in to Wine Makers Show and sip on the stories behind every bottle!

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Description

▬▬ 🎁 GIFTS 🎁 ▬▬

📚 Vigneronne, by Laure Gasparotto

🍇 Dassault Wine Estates

🏆 Understand everything about Bordeaux classifications in a short video

🎁 Get your wine essentials on our shop: a curated selection of wine accessories, posters and much more

🗺️ Get the best Wine Map of the Bordeaux region: as information as decorative

▬▬ ⭐️ ABOUT ⭐️ ▬▬

ALCOHOL ABUSE IS DANGEROUS FOUR YOUR HEALTH. CONSUME IN MODERATION.

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Transcription

Speaker #0
Hi Valérie.
Speaker #1
Hi Antoine.
Speaker #0
Thank you very much for welcoming us. We are currently in the tasting room of Château d'Assaut, just above your winemaking facilities. So I have beautiful views on the wines that are going to be in bottles in a few years, next year I guess.
Speaker #1
Next month actually.
Speaker #0
And you have a beautiful view over the vineyard just behind me. Thank you very much for welcoming us. We'll talk about a lot of things, about Saint-Emilion, about your career in the wine industry, about Chateau d'Asso, of course. But first, can you introduce yourself?
Speaker #1
Of course. Hello, Antoine. It's very nice meeting you and having you here. I'm Valérie Bev and I'm the CEO of the Vigneau Bleu d'Asso. I started here as the sales manager seven years ago and I've been... promoted last year as the CEO of the venue. Before that, I had my own wineries, the family wineries, and I was the winemaker there. And my grandfather was a winemaker as well in the Médoc, in Margaux, actually. So I crossed the river to come to Saint-Emilion. That happens sometimes.
Speaker #0
Which is still okay. It's not totally the right bank.
Speaker #1
He was still talking to me after that. So, yes, that was okay for him.
Speaker #0
So, you grew up in the vineyard?
Speaker #1
I grew up in the vineyard in the middle, as I said, and after I was in Bordeaux. And I've always said, I'll never do that job. So, as you can see, you should never say never. I worked for several years for the Groupe Accor, which is… hospitality group and I was in the sales department but
Speaker #0
I wanted to be back to my roots and went back to school at 30 years old and decided to be back in the in the wine business and so in at Accor you so you were doing sales so it's like selling hospitality to companies I guess like a hospitality plan for their you I don't know, like workers to go here and there. Exactly.
Speaker #1
I was only dealing with business part with the companies, being in charge of all the big companies in France. And I was specialized for the West of France and selling hospitality for all the hotels all over the world. So that was very interesting. It helped me knowing very well the economy of the region. And that was always linked to the wine as well, as we are in a wine region and a lot of companies were also in the wine industry. But I wanted to be back really to my roots.
Speaker #0
And so what happened at 30 years old? You start a new diploma. So you said you were a winemaker in your kind of previous life, previous professional life. So it means you started like DNO or something like winemaking diploma?
Speaker #1
Indeed. Actually, I didn't graduate for any diploma like DNO. But actually, I went back to that because with my husband, we had the opportunity to buy a small vineyard in Saint-Emilion, to be a partner to buy a vineyard and also a wine merchant, a wine company. So we bought the both of it. And I was the one who had to take care of it. So I did a lot of training and a lot of experiments with the council, local council, Conseil des Vins and also the university. And I was also hiring people who were very good in their department, like viticulture and also analogy. And I learned with them.
Speaker #0
How is it? to start entrepreneurship by taking over such a such a place and such like a structure must be half difficult because it's like the context we know in my industry is not super favorable for small structure or for independent structure so how is it to to be like back to it in in that way it's first first passionating you
Speaker #1
Of course, because you're learning all the time and you're really into it. So I really love that. And I'm still in the industry. So it means that that was a good choice. It's also very stressful because I took over in 2006, which wasn't an easy vintage to start with. and um We had to be really aware of everything and lots of male due pressure and also managing the staff. I was a woman, I'm still a woman, but I was a woman at that time, 30 years old, with people who were 50 or 60, mainly men. We're not used to being managed by a woman. So we had to find a way to talk to each other, listen to each other and find a way to talk to each other. a good way to work together.
Speaker #0
So you started there in 2006 and you stayed like 10 years? 10 years,
Speaker #1
yeah, until 2018.
Speaker #0
Okay, so a bit more than 10 years. And then you sold everything?
Speaker #1
I sold my shares and arrived at Chateau d'Asso because there was quite a big challenge here for the sales because the Chateau d'Asso used to be 24 hectares, went up. to now 39 hectares. And there is also another winery called Chateau La Fleur, which spreads over 20 hectares. So totally there are 60 hectares of vineyard. And the manager at that time needed someone more experimented in sales.
Speaker #0
When you double the volume of production, you need to have someone to sell these bottles. Exactly.
Speaker #1
They are two points in making wines. They are making wines, but also being able to sell it.
Speaker #0
How is the process to, either you now as a general manager or back in when you were hired, what is the process to hire a head of sales or senior sales for a winery? What are you looking for in terms of profiles? What are the qualities that you must have to do this job?
Speaker #1
First of all, I think it's important to know quite well how the Place de Bordeaux works. Um, it's a little bit different from all over, all other places in the world. So you have the courtier, the negos, and, um, so that helps a lot knowing that. but first of all, you definitely have to be a good salesman or saleswoman, be sensitive to, all the the your customers' expectations and making sure you're answering to that. And also one very important thing is to be able to speak another language, especially English. It's even better if you can speak Chinese or Japanese or Portuguese, but at least English. It's necessary. And I actually am saying that, but I've just hired a salesperson. And she has never worked in Bordeaux. She comes from Champagne. Because I wanted someone also who had a different background to be able to not be influenced by all the little habits we have here and being more open.
Speaker #0
Bringing new ideas and not staying in between the same people all the time.
Speaker #1
Exactly.
Speaker #0
So you arrived, I guess, if now you're general manager, it means that the last six years must have globally been a success. But how was it? What were your goals? What is the trajectory that you had over these six years before becoming a general manager?
Speaker #1
Well, you mean for the sales?
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
That was to establish a sales strategy. And so to strengthen the links with the negotiations and with our customers all over the world. And making sure ordering some Chateau d'Asso is an habit for them and just one shot. So that was the main goal. And also for the other wineries, Chateau Lafleur, making sure we find... customers that are quite um have some legacy and make sure they they enjoy and that their customers will still still order our wines yeah plus i guess i have a kind of a story around chateau la fleur and not just be like yeah it's the other other wine of chateau d'assaut or something like that exactly um and there are two wines quite different uh even they are almost at the same place. The terroir is completely different. The exposure is different. So that... also makes a kind of wine with a different profile. And that's great for the team here. And also for me, having two wineries, but with two different profiles.
Speaker #0
Yeah, you have an amazing map just behind you. I'm not sure we're going to see it at the camera. I'm not sure it's in it, but... We'll potentially add a picture of it or something. But yeah, we can see that you have like two zones, one blue, one orange. And I guess it's the terroir. And so this is the different estates that you have.
Speaker #1
Exactly. And just a quick summary to explain you. Chateau d'Asso is exposed on the north face of the vineyard. All the plots are facing north. And Chateau Lafleur, all the plots are facing south. And it makes a huge difference, especially with global warming. Dassault has naturally more freshness in swines because it has less sunny exposure compared to Chateau Lafleur. And Chateau Lafleur, we usually harvest at least two or three weeks ahead from Chateau Dassault because of that exposure.
Speaker #0
So for people listening, the sun has a huge impact on the maturity of the grape? because the more sun you have, the more sugar you will have inside the grape. And this is the sugar that turns into alcohol. So that's why the more you're in the south, the more you have alcohol in your wines, generally speaking. And so that's why you have such a difference between north and south.
Speaker #1
Exactly.
Speaker #0
When did the Dassault family took over the estate?
Speaker #1
In 1955. We celebrated the 70th anniversary last year. And in fact, Marcel Dassault, who's a very famous French engineer.
Speaker #0
The founder of Dassault?
Speaker #1
The founder of Dassault Aviation Company was a man crazy about wine. And he had one of the nicest wine cellars in Paris. And one of these factories was and still is in Bordeaux. So after the Second World War, when he was having customers, visiting the facilities in Marignac, he would take them also visiting a winery, which is the pretty much common visit that you can do in the area. I would do the same. Exactly. And he said, why not having my own winery? And he came here, walked down in the park and really fell in love with the estate. So back in that time, it was named Chateau Couperie. And he decided to rename it with his last name, Chateau Dassault. And it's still in the same family since. Now the grandchildren are running it.
Speaker #0
All right. So it's been 70 years.
Speaker #1
70 years. Exactly.
Speaker #0
And so for the 2025 vintage, are you, so you're releasing it today, from today, in these last weeks, because we are in April 2026, so right in the premiere week. Exactly. Are you doing a special event, label? something for this anniversary?
Speaker #1
We did a special event last month in Paris with journalists and sommeliers in Paris. And we'll have a special release of the 2023 vintage with a specific label drawn by a local artist. And for the 2025 vintage, which will be the 70th, vintage made by the winery, we might have another surprise. But you'll have to wait and come back in a year or two to know more about it.
Speaker #0
All right. So stay tuned. You know that. You need to follow in the next year. Yeah, because basically you're releasing 2025 to the professionals now, to the place of Bordeaux, but it's not really available to the public and made available to the public. So that's why you have this.
Speaker #1
It will be available next year. So we made a specific magnum I'm I'm to release this year on the 2023 vintage. And we picked the 2023 vintage because it's the first vintage where we have changed a little bit Dassault style and the winemaking process. We have a new wine cellar. We have new plots coming into the final blend. and it's also... The vintage that we find that is the more approachable younger compared to the previous vintages that we made, which were a little bit more structured and you needed to wait longer before drinking it. So we thought that would be interesting to have that 23 vintage turned into a special level.
Speaker #0
Nice. So tell me about it, because in your... experiences when we're talking about your experiences i stopped just before you become managing director i told you how was the sales uh what do you have so uh one year ago basically you become general manager How does that happen and what are your challenges?
Speaker #1
That happened that the previous manager decided to do something else and the president of the company called me and said, well, Valerie, would you like to take over and follow up on that mission? And I accepted with joy because I really liked it. This place, I like working for Dassault family. And there are so many things to do here. We've done a lot, but we are not at the end of it. So that was a real pleasure. I knew very well the team as I've been working with them for seven years now. And we get along very well. And so very happy about that. It wasn't the easiest time for taking that. new job because um the industry and the wine business is a little bit tougher right now but i'm convinced that we have lots to do and that uh you know it's a lot of things you have hills and up and downs and maybe we're a little bit more in the downs now for the border wines but uh and the wine in general but it will go up again for sure and so you're um you
Speaker #0
Challenges and next steps. So you have this international context about wines in general, alcohol beverage in general, but wines in particular, and Bordeaux wines even more specific, decreasing. I guess one of the solutions in Bordeaux wines is quality, like the top-notch wines will, I hope, never be in turmoil or in difficulties. Is it the path you're following or your... Like, basically, how do you answer to this crisis?
Speaker #1
Well, I'm convinced of one thing, is that we have to open the bottles, make sure people drink our wines, taste it, and put back the wine into our meals. And the wines have never been that good. The quality is the highest we have ever had. All the wineries, all the estates have made lots and lots of efforts about that. So the wines haven't been at that quality level as ever. So that's something we have to make sure people know about it. I'm convinced also that we have the best value for money ever. And we just have to make sure. People all over the world know about that. We have to be and keep being the best ambassador as possible and make sure we train also the young generations. They have to know more about the wine and make sure also the sommeliers are trained well by us, by the CVB, by all the different... organizations specialized in wine because they are our best ambassadors as well and there is no way that we don't go back to a wine consumption maybe the wine consumption won't increase but at least we'll stabilized um we've all the statistics said we don't we drink less but we drink best quality so that's really something we have to rely on um
Speaker #0
and i just circling back on the best value for money uh i totally agree and i like i think there are some estates especially in burgundy by the way but i love i still love burgundy region but that you can't even think of drinking because it's way too expensive uh to to find them but on the other hand especially in bordeaux it feels like the the price value uh ratio is
Speaker #1
insanely good and it's like looks like it's the best time to buy some bottle wines and have them sit in a cellar and drinking them in a few years when you're ready for it exactly and you've said everything drinking them we have to make sure we open a bottle and we drink it and we're also making wine now a bit more with a young approach as i was saying before because a lot of people don't want to wait 20 years as we used to. before drinking and opening a bottle. So we have to make sure we make it wine to age, but also being approachable younger. And it's something you share. We have to adapt also to the new way of drinking. We've noticed you don't sit at a table for family lunch or dinner or friends dinner. It's young people do it more like an appetizer, a drink thing. So making wines that are approachable younger makes it easier also to share it easily and in a less conventional way as we used to. So we have to adapt.
Speaker #0
to that. 100%. And the best bottle is an empty bottle with good friends.
Speaker #1
Exactly.
Speaker #0
So you worked at Accor before. I have two questions around that. First, my first question is how do you see the hospitality, the wine hospitality in the Bordeaux region?
Speaker #1
That's a good question. Is it a tricky question? No, no, no,
Speaker #0
no tricks. Just your opinion about it and like your strategic view around it.
Speaker #1
I think, and we are probably responsible for that, but there was a lack of Bordeaux bottles in hospitality and in restaurants for a long time, during several years. And that has been a big mistake. Probably, maybe because winemakers were a little bit too proud or didn't need to sell locally, as they were selling very well all over the world. But that really helped the border bashing thing to happen. There are other reasons, of course, but we're... Working hard on that to change that way. And I'm quite impressed to see how many restaurants now are back into Bordeaux wines. And I thank them for that because that's really very important. Like you were talking about Burgundy. Burgundy is so strong about that. When you go in a restaurant in Beaune, 99% of the wines are from Burgundy. and there it is. Right. I was in Spain a few months ago and there were only the wines from their area. So, of course, as we host people that come from all different countries and a lot of people from the wine business, it's great to be able to offer them other regions, but Bordeaux has to be strong on the wine list. And it's even better if they are able to make it at a good price. Because that's another point. I know it's a tricky thing because I know that's important for them to make a margin on wine because they have a small margin on food. However, you can notice it everywhere. If the wine is at a good price, you'll sell bottle. If it's too expensive, people at the best will have a glass of wine and at the worst, won't drink. and bottles have to be back on the table. And for that, you need to have a good price. And they'll make money on the volume. Of course, the margin will be smaller, but they'll make margin on the volume.
Speaker #0
Yeah, it's true that when you go to a restaurant and you see the price of some bottles, you're like, maybe I will drink it at home after the dinner or in another setting. But yeah, it's true that sometimes some restaurants tend to be a... A bit too much on the margin side of the things. Exactly.
Speaker #1
So regarding hospitality, we're not completely at the end of it, but there is a large improvement on that. And that's a good point because we all have to make an effort for that. Duclos Wine Negos is making a wonderful event, Bordeaux on the Table, at a very selection of wines with a very small margin for restaurants. And that's great. That's the best communication that we have and the best offer that we can have for the consumers.
Speaker #0
And second question regarding hospitality, but more from a stakeholder perspective in it. How do you see the, like, maybe to give you a bit of context, Marine and I are living in Hong Kong. And so one of the things we thought of doing was basically bring tourists. being Chinese and Hong Kongers, to Bordeaux region and to wine regions globally. And when we were looking at Bordeaux, the things that... we analyzed is that the hospitality offer is a bit restricted like the number of places with rooms that you can book is pretty low the quality of the rooms are like there is a big variety from an international standard you have things that are very authentic and very beautiful i would love to go there but i don't see hong kongers or chinese going there because like noisy old furniture that type of stuff which is not very international standard I'm Tom. um difficult to book online no agency commission so for us the only margin possible was on our client but not on the people for who we are bringing business so like all these type of things made us think wow it's actually difficult to organize a trip in like the number of accommodation the number of activities everything is like restricted how do you analyze that and is it a priority for you with this hospitality background to develop something like that here.
Speaker #1
Maybe you didn't get the right relations. Because listening to you, I think we can talk about that later on. But I agree. That's maybe one thing. We're not listening enough to the consumers from the different places. A lot of places have their French approach. but not international approach. I think it's evolving. It's improving in different places. And as far as we are concerned at Chateau d'Assault, we won't have rooms for rent immediately. That might happen in three or four years. But we have the potential at the Chateau, but we'll do it step by step. part of my strategy as you were asking before but i have other things to do before that um and i understand some asian customers um have some expectations and we need to answer to that um there are one or two projects in saint-emilion i can talk to you later on and that might answer to your expectations but it won't be at chateau d'assault right now we'll have to talk about that in thought.
Speaker #0
But you're still welcoming people to visit and to do some activities?
Speaker #1
So far, we are not open to the public. But that's something I've decided and will be possible next year. So we'll start to open the doors, as we say, to the public.
Speaker #0
A beautiful place to do it.
Speaker #1
Exactly. And we want to share our experience and to have that Dasco experience. And I'm convinced that the people who come and visit, they are our best ambassadors all over the world. At least if they're happy with it, but I'm sure they will.
Speaker #0
Amazing. So next year, if you want to visit Chatedasso, it will be the right moment. And then to be honest, I depicted a very bad place to visit, but you can still come to Bordeaux. You will find the great places to sleep, to have fun and to do things. Plenty of good places for... eating also good stuff so no worries you can still travel to bordeaux but it was hard for us to organize that in a in a good way um so uh this was my question we got my questions regarding your experience at a core and how you like transit like your strategic perspectives on that if we go back to the moment when you were owning your business and considering the type of vineyard that you had at that time. point uh what were you doing in this business that you owned that you like kind of applied here at chateau d'assault in a larger structure and and maybe with more investment power and like firepower around your project I would say here it's definitely easier regarding investments because I'm quite lucky to have Dassault family that believe in the Chateau and they have the financial power to invest and say, OK, we can look at the five years or 10 years investment and we believe on that. When I was running my estate, we didn't have that time frame. When we were investing one euro, I needed it back right away. So that made it a little bit more difficult. But what helped me a lot here, learning from my past, is that knowing that every single detail is important. to make a very good wine and to make it exceptional. And when you have a small winery, of course, it's easier to make it, but you are very precise for every step of it. And that's really something I'm asking to the team here, being very precise for every single task we have, starting at the vineyard. in the cellar for bottling, for sales, and so on. So that's really something that helped me. And the second thing that helped me a lot is that on a small winery, I was convinced that I needed to know exactly how to make every single task. So the first thing I did when I arrived is I took driving license for the tractor and being able to drive the tractor in the vineyard and being able to... drive the tractor to lift the pallets and so on. And I was able to do everything. And that's completely different when you're a manager and you know exactly, well, that I know how to do that. I know to do a pumping over, filling in the barrels and also pruning the vines and so on. I personally think it makes the relationship easier with your staff.
Speaker #1
It's a good side quest as well to try to drive a tractor. I will try to learn that in the future.
Speaker #0
It's not that difficult, though.
Speaker #1
So Château d'Assaut is part of Classement des Vins de Saint-Emilion, Saint-Emilion ranking. Can you give us a bit more background about how Saint-Emilion wine ranking works?
Speaker #0
It's quite unique. actually. The classification started in 1955 compared to the middle when it was in 1855, so a century later. And this classification compared to all the other classifications is revised every 10 years. So every 10 years, we have to apply to that classification and we can ask to be upgraded as first classified growth. only apply to stay at classified growth. If you're not classified, if you're a Grand Cru, you can also apply to it. So that's something very important to keep in mind because it really means that there is not a single winery in the area wants to be classified that do not think every day when you have to make a choice in vinification, in the vineyard or whatever, thinking, is it? allowed for the classification or is it in the way the class classified growth should be and it really force everyone to increase the quality and for me uh and i'm talking to the consumers when you see a classified growth on the label it's a guarantee of quality especially because it's revised every 10 years so it's not something you keep for life The main difference with the Médoc is that in the Médoc, it's the name of the château which is classified. So they can buy a piece of land from their neighbor. They'll make, for instance, I don't know, Château Lingebage will buy a piece of land, a plot. They will be able to make Château Lingebage with that new plot. In Saint-Emilion, you're not allowed to. You'll have to wait the new classification, ask to classify that.
Speaker #1
land and then you'll be able to make wine out of it because in Saint-Emilion it's the terroir and the land which is classified that's why from what I see behind you so Chateau La Fleur for example yes I don't know if it has a classification it's not Saint-Emilion Grand Cru but not Grand Cru classified Grand Cru classé exactly and
Speaker #0
for instance in 2022 before 2022 we had another winery called Château Faurit-Souchard. which is just across the road. And in 2022, last classification, we asked... to include Château Foritzouchard in Château Dassault. So we applied for it and we filled in a big file and that was accepted. But we could not do it by ourselves.
Speaker #1
And so now you integrated this winery to Château Dassault?
Speaker #0
Exactly.
Speaker #1
So that's why we were able to produce a bit more. It's a very interesting point, this classification. So it's like every 10 years. So last time, 2022. So next one would be 32. So you're right in the middle.
Speaker #0
Right in the middle. And we'll have to start filling in the files in 2030. So only for three and a half more years before working hard again, which is very interested in that classification and that everyone has to keep in mind, is that the console that look at that, the classification, we'll look at the vineyard, how we work in the vineyard, how we work in the cellar, the winemaking process, the aging process, and all the process, but also there is a tasting, a blind tasting over the last 10 years, over the last 10 vintages. And you need to have at least 14 out of 20 for that tasting. So it's really linked to the wine and to the quality of the wine. Of course, if you work properly in your vineyard and in the cellar and everything, you should have the quality in the wine. And the blind tasting is over the last 10 vintages. Also to make sure the wine has the capacity to age. That's our DNA. The wine should age at least 10 years.
Speaker #1
That's a crazy work for classification. I'm not sure that there are a lot of comparisons possible in France. I'm not super aware of other classification that have the same dynamic rating of every estate inside of it and deciding if you stay, you upgrade, you downgrade.
Speaker #0
I'm pretty sure we are the only one.
Speaker #1
It's a really crazy thing that it's made by an association of producers, like by the appellation. because you always have like the journalists and critics who give points and stuff every year. But this rhythm and this organization is very impressive.
Speaker #0
It's like passing an exam. I mean, and you choose to pass the exam to go to university or whatever. So we do the same as wine growers. We decide to pass the exam. And I can tell you a lot of wineries want to be into it. I heard they were more than... 250 wineries that applied to it in 2022 and only 84 of us were um how do we say rewarded so um it represented about a little bit more than 10 percent of the total number of wineries i'm
Speaker #1
shocked because i didn't know that at all i thought that Like a lot of wineries were Saint-Emilion Grand Cru Classé, but no, actually it's Saint-Emilion Grand Cru.
Speaker #0
Grand Cru, exactly. You have either Saint-Emilion by itself or Saint-Emilion Grand Cru. And when you are Grand Cru, you can apply to the Grand Cru Classé.
Speaker #1
And Grand Cru, everyone can be?
Speaker #0
You choose for it. You need to age your wine a certain time. There are some...
Speaker #1
So it's basically like production guidelines. If you follow them, you're Grand Cru.
Speaker #0
Exactly. Exactly.
Speaker #1
Okay, so... What?
Speaker #0
The quality is also important because there is a tasting.
Speaker #1
Ah, there is a tasting for Grand Cru. Exactly.
Speaker #0
But that's more accessible.
Speaker #1
So in the pyramid, it's like wine from Saint-Emilion. This is everyone in Saint-Emilion. Saint-Emilion Grand Cru, you need to follow production guidelines plus the tasting, but it's relatively accessible. And then Saint-Emilion Grand Cru Classé, this where? It starts to be difficult. It's more selective. More selective. And then you have Grand Cru Classé B and Grand Cru Classé A. B and A, sorry.
Speaker #0
You have then the first Grand Cru Classé. Ah, yeah, first Grand Cru Classé. Premier Grand Cru Classé. A, there are two of it. Fijac and Pavie. And then you have the others. commonly a lot of people call B, but in fact, it's not called B.
Speaker #1
It's just premier grand cru classé. And then grand cru classé. Okay. It's a good lesson about Saint-Emilion. If you're in the middle of a wine exam, it's a good moment for you to have these notions come back. So yeah, next time, 2032, we hope that that is going to work. What's the strategy you want to... You want to have Lafleur on its own as it is a specific personality or you want to integrate? No,
Speaker #0
we want to keep Lafleur on its own. The terroir is different. We're working as we want. We work every day to make it classy. We'll see if we apply for it. But we definitely make it the best way as we can. But we want to keep it separate.
Speaker #1
Okay. In your presentation at the beginning of this episode, you said, I'm the CEO of Dassault Vineyards. Is it because you're thinking of expanding to other regions, other places, or because you already have basically two vineyards, so we can say vineyards?
Speaker #0
Actually, it's kind of both. It's Dassault Wine Estates is the name of the... The structure that owns the land. So there is Chateau Lafleur and Chateau Dassault, as we talked about. But Dassault Mouin Estates also owns shares in other venues. One in Burgundy called Clos des Varouales. Okay. There is also shares in Chateau Chauval Blanc. Okay. 5%. And Chateau Evangile in Pomerol. And Rieux Sec in Sauternes. And also Champagne Tétanger. so there are different other wineries we are linked with however I'm only in charge of Saint-Emilion that's the rest is basically participation it's participation and minority participation you can't do that much investing in Saint-Emilion I think we are quite good so far but we are always looking what's happening somewhere else. It depends on the opportunities. Today, it seems like there are some opportunities showing up, but we haven't found exactly what we would like to have.
Speaker #1
Okay, so maybe in 10 years, we'll have a different... We'll see. We'll have an episode two in another place in 10 years. I had a question. These different participation. Forgot about it. Marine will edit. Sorry, guys. No, no edit. No edit from Marine. Never mind. It will be for next time. Did you hire a new head of sales? Now that you're managing director, you also manage, you continue to manage sales.
Speaker #0
I'm continuing to managing sales. I have a sales rep. that helped me and she helps me quite well so far and i will probably hire someone else pretty soon but we try to set up nicely and we'll see how it's going on okay
Speaker #1
so my question is back in mind um so we were talking just about acquisition and like expanding but it's so you you have like 60 hectares not planted planted is a 50 hectare but it's big i mean especially for santa million you have some estate like seven eight exactly we're one of the biggest actually what's
Speaker #0
happening is that at dasso we did a lot of pulling out like sorry i start again And 10 years ago, we really studied exactly how was our terroir. We digged out. in different places in all the plots to know exactly our terroir and to make sure we had the right grape variety on the right terroir. After this study, we decided to pull out 25% of our vineyard to replant the right grape variety on the right terroir. So we are still doing that. uh will be at the end of it in 2035 so we still have seven years more to go um but that actually that's great because we decided to plant more cabernet franc um because we have terroir and soil that really fits well with the Cabernet Franc, a little bit more Cabernet Sauvignon as well. We were quite high in Merlot so far, 75%. We'll go down to 60%. So that will have an impact on the style and the profile of the wine, but that will be a lot more adapted. And also, that's perfect with the climate change. And so we have to go back to be back on your question. We have 30 hectares planted at that time, but we still have all the vines that we need to pull out. And we still have very young vines that we planted last year that are not in production yet.
Speaker #1
So this echoes super well when you were talking about like long term investment and seeing about 10 years. When you do things like when you have 50 hectares and you decide to pull out, I don't know, like 15 or 20 hectares and then replant little at little, then your production varies a lot. Exactly. The time that then the vine grows and starts producing nice grapes, you have like five years minimum, I guess, to start filling something. So it's a lot of like treasury management and production management to do, I guess, for you.
Speaker #0
Exactly. Yeah, that's... Always a little bit tricky and we always want to produce more, but we have to be patient. Wine is all about patience.
Speaker #1
True, it's the nature at work.
Speaker #0
Exactly.
Speaker #1
Thank you very much for all of this, Valérie. I think we have a nice, very nice episode together. I have three last questions. First, is there something we didn't mention, but that was very important for you to mention?
Speaker #0
Maybe I can mention this new cellar. You talked a little bit about it, but that was also a big investment. We built it in 2022 and we're very happy with it. That was definitely to be able to make wine with a wider capacity, but also to improve the quality. And we are very happy about it. It's not an architectural. I don't know how you say it in English, but we wanted to be sober, but very practical for the team. Very happy with it. And also one point is that we want it also to be eco, sustainable and great for the environment. So all the building has no AC, for instance. which is quite rare when you see all the windows that we have, except in the tasting room. And that really helps the quality of the wine. So we're very happy about it.
Speaker #1
Nice. And so next year, we'll be maybe able to visit it and have this view. And we'll put some pictures and videos on our Instagram. So you will have a little look on this place.
Speaker #0
More than welcome to be back whenever you want.
Speaker #1
So last question. Do you have a book recommendation for me?
Speaker #0
Yeah, actually, it's not literature or whatever, but that's really the message which is into it that I really like. It's the book Vigneron, written by Lord Gasparotto. Just talking about this lady who's a wine lover, writing about wine but wanted As always, I wanted to make her own wine. And the story really ends by this topic, which is wine is a story for life. It's really when you're into wine, it's really for the life. It's not easy. Definitely not easy. Not as easy as we think. But it's just a question about patience. And that's... a book which I really liked. And I really shared a lot of things with Laure Gasparotto when I was reading it.
Speaker #1
Yeah, I love the book. I really appreciate Laure. She came on the podcast a few years ago now, and she sometimes listens. So if you're listening.
Speaker #0
I've never met Laure, but hi, Laure.
Speaker #1
She's super kind and super interesting. And what I like about what she did in the South like that. is that she impersonates a journalist that is really skin in the game into making wines. And I've seen people, like I don't even remember their names, but you know, you do press travels with some journalists and they ask like... questions like oh but why don't you do why don't you do this this specific way and themselves they are like living paris city center uh just drinking wines uh freely uh whenever they they want because it's sample sent to them and i'm not doing uh stuff with their hands and so it's a bit frustrating when you see that especially when you're a winemaker yourself i guess and uh laura is the opposite of that she understands perfectly uh the wine she did wines herself and she and really has this passion about wine, this lifestyle about wine. So I love this.
Speaker #0
And what I like is that sometimes the message, especially the message is you should always respect what you're drinking. It might not be your taste, but you have to respect the work which is made behind it because it's a lot of work. And every person is doing its best to make it nice and enjoyable. So even if it's not your taste. respect the product 100 percent um do you have a recent wine that you taste and and you loved it definitely and actually it's really new brand new because it was last week and i had a chance to taste a 1916 vintage from chateau malartic la gravier it was at a specific dinner during the en primeur. And... Above the wine, what I loved about it is that thinking I'm drinking a wine which is 100 years old. And it was made during the First World War.
Speaker #1
That's true.
Speaker #0
And it was probably the woman who made that wine because the guys were in the war and fighting. And that made so much emotion. That's what I really like into wine. When you go back in the past, that's the only thing that you can drink with that age. You cannot eat a beef that is even 20 years old. So when you're drinking wine, which is older, it really brings you back in the past. And in some vintages, you were even not born, but really make you think about all that. So that created a lot of emotion at that tasting.
Speaker #1
Amazing. And finally, who is the next person I should interview?
Speaker #0
Definitely, Colline Golo, who's the artist who drew the new label for Chateau Dassault's 70th anniversary. Colline is a wonderful artist from Bordeaux, young. And I'm thinking of her because when she came here, she visited it. And talk to all the people who are working here. And she very easily created a label representing so well the spirit of the place and of the wine and of the people. So she's very special.
Speaker #1
It could be very interesting to have this point of view on the wines as well. And on how do you build a label? Very interesting.
Speaker #0
And wine. is a kind of art. So art and wine is linked. And you can see you have a piece of art behind you as well from Bernard Venet. So I think it's all, all is linked.
Speaker #1
Thank you very much Valérie for this conversation. It was an amazing moment. I learned a lot of things. I revised my Grand Cru Classé from Saint-Emilion. Thanks to you.
Speaker #0
I can't tell you more. There's a long list of things to talk about.
Speaker #1
And I learned a lot about Château d'Assaut. I can't wait to... taste it because it smells super good since we we started i just have this uh disorder since we we started so i can't wait to to taste it um thank you very much for for this conversation but if you like this episode don't forget to subscribe share it to two people who need to drink more centimillion wines i
Speaker #0
see you soon bye bye bye thank you antoine cheers It smells good. It's a way to decant.

About Wine Makers Show: the wine podcast

What to Expect

In-Depth Interviews: Hear from top figures in the wine world, from renowned vintners to unsung heroes, as they share their experiences, challenges, and secrets to success.
Club Episodes: Explore specific wine topics, from production techniques to tasting tips, in focused, occasional deep dives.
A Journey of Discovery: Whether you're a novice or a connoisseur, we break down the complexities of wine to make it accessible and engaging.

Why Listen?

Connect with Us

Visit winemakersshow.com to get in touch or suggest a guest.
Email Antoine directly at winemakersshow@gmail.com.
Follow the journey on Instagram: @winemakersshow
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Tune in to Wine Makers Show and sip on the stories behind every bottle!

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About Wine Makers Show: the wine podcast

What to Expect

In-Depth Interviews: Hear from top figures in the wine world, from renowned vintners to unsung heroes, as they share their experiences, challenges, and secrets to success.
Club Episodes: Explore specific wine topics, from production techniques to tasting tips, in focused, occasional deep dives.
A Journey of Discovery: Whether you're a novice or a connoisseur, we break down the complexities of wine to make it accessible and engaging.

Why Listen?

Connect with Us

Visit winemakersshow.com to get in touch or suggest a guest.
Email Antoine directly at winemakersshow@gmail.com.
Follow the journey on Instagram: @winemakersshow
Join the Academy and learn everything about wine

Tune in to Wine Makers Show and sip on the stories behind every bottle!

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

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Transcription

Speaker #0
Hi Valérie.
Speaker #1
Hi Antoine.
Speaker #0
Thank you very much for welcoming us. We are currently in the tasting room of Château d'Assaut, just above your winemaking facilities. So I have beautiful views on the wines that are going to be in bottles in a few years, next year I guess.
Speaker #1
Next month actually.
Speaker #0
And you have a beautiful view over the vineyard just behind me. Thank you very much for welcoming us. We'll talk about a lot of things, about Saint-Emilion, about your career in the wine industry, about Chateau d'Asso, of course. But first, can you introduce yourself?
Speaker #1
Of course. Hello, Antoine. It's very nice meeting you and having you here. I'm Valérie Bev and I'm the CEO of the Vigneau Bleu d'Asso. I started here as the sales manager seven years ago and I've been... promoted last year as the CEO of the venue. Before that, I had my own wineries, the family wineries, and I was the winemaker there. And my grandfather was a winemaker as well in the Médoc, in Margaux, actually. So I crossed the river to come to Saint-Emilion. That happens sometimes.
Speaker #0
Which is still okay. It's not totally the right bank.
Speaker #1
He was still talking to me after that. So, yes, that was okay for him.
Speaker #0
So, you grew up in the vineyard?
Speaker #1
I grew up in the vineyard in the middle, as I said, and after I was in Bordeaux. And I've always said, I'll never do that job. So, as you can see, you should never say never. I worked for several years for the Groupe Accor, which is… hospitality group and I was in the sales department but
Speaker #0
I wanted to be back to my roots and went back to school at 30 years old and decided to be back in the in the wine business and so in at Accor you so you were doing sales so it's like selling hospitality to companies I guess like a hospitality plan for their you I don't know, like workers to go here and there. Exactly.
Speaker #1
I was only dealing with business part with the companies, being in charge of all the big companies in France. And I was specialized for the West of France and selling hospitality for all the hotels all over the world. So that was very interesting. It helped me knowing very well the economy of the region. And that was always linked to the wine as well, as we are in a wine region and a lot of companies were also in the wine industry. But I wanted to be back really to my roots.
Speaker #0
And so what happened at 30 years old? You start a new diploma. So you said you were a winemaker in your kind of previous life, previous professional life. So it means you started like DNO or something like winemaking diploma?
Speaker #1
Indeed. Actually, I didn't graduate for any diploma like DNO. But actually, I went back to that because with my husband, we had the opportunity to buy a small vineyard in Saint-Emilion, to be a partner to buy a vineyard and also a wine merchant, a wine company. So we bought the both of it. And I was the one who had to take care of it. So I did a lot of training and a lot of experiments with the council, local council, Conseil des Vins and also the university. And I was also hiring people who were very good in their department, like viticulture and also analogy. And I learned with them.
Speaker #0
How is it? to start entrepreneurship by taking over such a such a place and such like a structure must be half difficult because it's like the context we know in my industry is not super favorable for small structure or for independent structure so how is it to to be like back to it in in that way it's first first passionating you
Speaker #1
Of course, because you're learning all the time and you're really into it. So I really love that. And I'm still in the industry. So it means that that was a good choice. It's also very stressful because I took over in 2006, which wasn't an easy vintage to start with. and um We had to be really aware of everything and lots of male due pressure and also managing the staff. I was a woman, I'm still a woman, but I was a woman at that time, 30 years old, with people who were 50 or 60, mainly men. We're not used to being managed by a woman. So we had to find a way to talk to each other, listen to each other and find a way to talk to each other. a good way to work together.
Speaker #0
So you started there in 2006 and you stayed like 10 years? 10 years,
Speaker #1
yeah, until 2018.
Speaker #0
Okay, so a bit more than 10 years. And then you sold everything?
Speaker #1
I sold my shares and arrived at Chateau d'Asso because there was quite a big challenge here for the sales because the Chateau d'Asso used to be 24 hectares, went up. to now 39 hectares. And there is also another winery called Chateau La Fleur, which spreads over 20 hectares. So totally there are 60 hectares of vineyard. And the manager at that time needed someone more experimented in sales.
Speaker #0
When you double the volume of production, you need to have someone to sell these bottles. Exactly.
Speaker #1
They are two points in making wines. They are making wines, but also being able to sell it.
Speaker #0
How is the process to, either you now as a general manager or back in when you were hired, what is the process to hire a head of sales or senior sales for a winery? What are you looking for in terms of profiles? What are the qualities that you must have to do this job?
Speaker #1
First of all, I think it's important to know quite well how the Place de Bordeaux works. Um, it's a little bit different from all over, all other places in the world. So you have the courtier, the negos, and, um, so that helps a lot knowing that. but first of all, you definitely have to be a good salesman or saleswoman, be sensitive to, all the the your customers' expectations and making sure you're answering to that. And also one very important thing is to be able to speak another language, especially English. It's even better if you can speak Chinese or Japanese or Portuguese, but at least English. It's necessary. And I actually am saying that, but I've just hired a salesperson. And she has never worked in Bordeaux. She comes from Champagne. Because I wanted someone also who had a different background to be able to not be influenced by all the little habits we have here and being more open.
Speaker #0
Bringing new ideas and not staying in between the same people all the time.
Speaker #1
Exactly.
Speaker #0
So you arrived, I guess, if now you're general manager, it means that the last six years must have globally been a success. But how was it? What were your goals? What is the trajectory that you had over these six years before becoming a general manager?
Speaker #1
Well, you mean for the sales?
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
That was to establish a sales strategy. And so to strengthen the links with the negotiations and with our customers all over the world. And making sure ordering some Chateau d'Asso is an habit for them and just one shot. So that was the main goal. And also for the other wineries, Chateau Lafleur, making sure we find... customers that are quite um have some legacy and make sure they they enjoy and that their customers will still still order our wines yeah plus i guess i have a kind of a story around chateau la fleur and not just be like yeah it's the other other wine of chateau d'assaut or something like that exactly um and there are two wines quite different uh even they are almost at the same place. The terroir is completely different. The exposure is different. So that... also makes a kind of wine with a different profile. And that's great for the team here. And also for me, having two wineries, but with two different profiles.
Speaker #0
Yeah, you have an amazing map just behind you. I'm not sure we're going to see it at the camera. I'm not sure it's in it, but... We'll potentially add a picture of it or something. But yeah, we can see that you have like two zones, one blue, one orange. And I guess it's the terroir. And so this is the different estates that you have.
Speaker #1
Exactly. And just a quick summary to explain you. Chateau d'Asso is exposed on the north face of the vineyard. All the plots are facing north. And Chateau Lafleur, all the plots are facing south. And it makes a huge difference, especially with global warming. Dassault has naturally more freshness in swines because it has less sunny exposure compared to Chateau Lafleur. And Chateau Lafleur, we usually harvest at least two or three weeks ahead from Chateau Dassault because of that exposure.
Speaker #0
So for people listening, the sun has a huge impact on the maturity of the grape? because the more sun you have, the more sugar you will have inside the grape. And this is the sugar that turns into alcohol. So that's why the more you're in the south, the more you have alcohol in your wines, generally speaking. And so that's why you have such a difference between north and south.
Speaker #1
Exactly.
Speaker #0
When did the Dassault family took over the estate?
Speaker #1
In 1955. We celebrated the 70th anniversary last year. And in fact, Marcel Dassault, who's a very famous French engineer.
Speaker #0
The founder of Dassault?
Speaker #1
The founder of Dassault Aviation Company was a man crazy about wine. And he had one of the nicest wine cellars in Paris. And one of these factories was and still is in Bordeaux. So after the Second World War, when he was having customers, visiting the facilities in Marignac, he would take them also visiting a winery, which is the pretty much common visit that you can do in the area. I would do the same. Exactly. And he said, why not having my own winery? And he came here, walked down in the park and really fell in love with the estate. So back in that time, it was named Chateau Couperie. And he decided to rename it with his last name, Chateau Dassault. And it's still in the same family since. Now the grandchildren are running it.
Speaker #0
All right. So it's been 70 years.
Speaker #1
70 years. Exactly.
Speaker #0
And so for the 2025 vintage, are you, so you're releasing it today, from today, in these last weeks, because we are in April 2026, so right in the premiere week. Exactly. Are you doing a special event, label? something for this anniversary?
Speaker #1
We did a special event last month in Paris with journalists and sommeliers in Paris. And we'll have a special release of the 2023 vintage with a specific label drawn by a local artist. And for the 2025 vintage, which will be the 70th, vintage made by the winery, we might have another surprise. But you'll have to wait and come back in a year or two to know more about it.
Speaker #0
All right. So stay tuned. You know that. You need to follow in the next year. Yeah, because basically you're releasing 2025 to the professionals now, to the place of Bordeaux, but it's not really available to the public and made available to the public. So that's why you have this.
Speaker #1
It will be available next year. So we made a specific magnum I'm I'm to release this year on the 2023 vintage. And we picked the 2023 vintage because it's the first vintage where we have changed a little bit Dassault style and the winemaking process. We have a new wine cellar. We have new plots coming into the final blend. and it's also... The vintage that we find that is the more approachable younger compared to the previous vintages that we made, which were a little bit more structured and you needed to wait longer before drinking it. So we thought that would be interesting to have that 23 vintage turned into a special level.
Speaker #0
Nice. So tell me about it, because in your... experiences when we're talking about your experiences i stopped just before you become managing director i told you how was the sales uh what do you have so uh one year ago basically you become general manager How does that happen and what are your challenges?
Speaker #1
That happened that the previous manager decided to do something else and the president of the company called me and said, well, Valerie, would you like to take over and follow up on that mission? And I accepted with joy because I really liked it. This place, I like working for Dassault family. And there are so many things to do here. We've done a lot, but we are not at the end of it. So that was a real pleasure. I knew very well the team as I've been working with them for seven years now. And we get along very well. And so very happy about that. It wasn't the easiest time for taking that. new job because um the industry and the wine business is a little bit tougher right now but i'm convinced that we have lots to do and that uh you know it's a lot of things you have hills and up and downs and maybe we're a little bit more in the downs now for the border wines but uh and the wine in general but it will go up again for sure and so you're um you
Speaker #0
Challenges and next steps. So you have this international context about wines in general, alcohol beverage in general, but wines in particular, and Bordeaux wines even more specific, decreasing. I guess one of the solutions in Bordeaux wines is quality, like the top-notch wines will, I hope, never be in turmoil or in difficulties. Is it the path you're following or your... Like, basically, how do you answer to this crisis?
Speaker #1
Well, I'm convinced of one thing, is that we have to open the bottles, make sure people drink our wines, taste it, and put back the wine into our meals. And the wines have never been that good. The quality is the highest we have ever had. All the wineries, all the estates have made lots and lots of efforts about that. So the wines haven't been at that quality level as ever. So that's something we have to make sure people know about it. I'm convinced also that we have the best value for money ever. And we just have to make sure. People all over the world know about that. We have to be and keep being the best ambassador as possible and make sure we train also the young generations. They have to know more about the wine and make sure also the sommeliers are trained well by us, by the CVB, by all the different... organizations specialized in wine because they are our best ambassadors as well and there is no way that we don't go back to a wine consumption maybe the wine consumption won't increase but at least we'll stabilized um we've all the statistics said we don't we drink less but we drink best quality so that's really something we have to rely on um
Speaker #0
and i just circling back on the best value for money uh i totally agree and i like i think there are some estates especially in burgundy by the way but i love i still love burgundy region but that you can't even think of drinking because it's way too expensive uh to to find them but on the other hand especially in bordeaux it feels like the the price value uh ratio is
Speaker #1
insanely good and it's like looks like it's the best time to buy some bottle wines and have them sit in a cellar and drinking them in a few years when you're ready for it exactly and you've said everything drinking them we have to make sure we open a bottle and we drink it and we're also making wine now a bit more with a young approach as i was saying before because a lot of people don't want to wait 20 years as we used to. before drinking and opening a bottle. So we have to make sure we make it wine to age, but also being approachable younger. And it's something you share. We have to adapt also to the new way of drinking. We've noticed you don't sit at a table for family lunch or dinner or friends dinner. It's young people do it more like an appetizer, a drink thing. So making wines that are approachable younger makes it easier also to share it easily and in a less conventional way as we used to. So we have to adapt.
Speaker #0
to that. 100%. And the best bottle is an empty bottle with good friends.
Speaker #1
Exactly.
Speaker #0
So you worked at Accor before. I have two questions around that. First, my first question is how do you see the hospitality, the wine hospitality in the Bordeaux region?
Speaker #1
That's a good question. Is it a tricky question? No, no, no,
Speaker #0
no tricks. Just your opinion about it and like your strategic view around it.
Speaker #1
I think, and we are probably responsible for that, but there was a lack of Bordeaux bottles in hospitality and in restaurants for a long time, during several years. And that has been a big mistake. Probably, maybe because winemakers were a little bit too proud or didn't need to sell locally, as they were selling very well all over the world. But that really helped the border bashing thing to happen. There are other reasons, of course, but we're... Working hard on that to change that way. And I'm quite impressed to see how many restaurants now are back into Bordeaux wines. And I thank them for that because that's really very important. Like you were talking about Burgundy. Burgundy is so strong about that. When you go in a restaurant in Beaune, 99% of the wines are from Burgundy. and there it is. Right. I was in Spain a few months ago and there were only the wines from their area. So, of course, as we host people that come from all different countries and a lot of people from the wine business, it's great to be able to offer them other regions, but Bordeaux has to be strong on the wine list. And it's even better if they are able to make it at a good price. Because that's another point. I know it's a tricky thing because I know that's important for them to make a margin on wine because they have a small margin on food. However, you can notice it everywhere. If the wine is at a good price, you'll sell bottle. If it's too expensive, people at the best will have a glass of wine and at the worst, won't drink. and bottles have to be back on the table. And for that, you need to have a good price. And they'll make money on the volume. Of course, the margin will be smaller, but they'll make margin on the volume.
Speaker #0
Yeah, it's true that when you go to a restaurant and you see the price of some bottles, you're like, maybe I will drink it at home after the dinner or in another setting. But yeah, it's true that sometimes some restaurants tend to be a... A bit too much on the margin side of the things. Exactly.
Speaker #1
So regarding hospitality, we're not completely at the end of it, but there is a large improvement on that. And that's a good point because we all have to make an effort for that. Duclos Wine Negos is making a wonderful event, Bordeaux on the Table, at a very selection of wines with a very small margin for restaurants. And that's great. That's the best communication that we have and the best offer that we can have for the consumers.
Speaker #0
And second question regarding hospitality, but more from a stakeholder perspective in it. How do you see the, like, maybe to give you a bit of context, Marine and I are living in Hong Kong. And so one of the things we thought of doing was basically bring tourists. being Chinese and Hong Kongers, to Bordeaux region and to wine regions globally. And when we were looking at Bordeaux, the things that... we analyzed is that the hospitality offer is a bit restricted like the number of places with rooms that you can book is pretty low the quality of the rooms are like there is a big variety from an international standard you have things that are very authentic and very beautiful i would love to go there but i don't see hong kongers or chinese going there because like noisy old furniture that type of stuff which is not very international standard I'm Tom. um difficult to book online no agency commission so for us the only margin possible was on our client but not on the people for who we are bringing business so like all these type of things made us think wow it's actually difficult to organize a trip in like the number of accommodation the number of activities everything is like restricted how do you analyze that and is it a priority for you with this hospitality background to develop something like that here.
Speaker #1
Maybe you didn't get the right relations. Because listening to you, I think we can talk about that later on. But I agree. That's maybe one thing. We're not listening enough to the consumers from the different places. A lot of places have their French approach. but not international approach. I think it's evolving. It's improving in different places. And as far as we are concerned at Chateau d'Assault, we won't have rooms for rent immediately. That might happen in three or four years. But we have the potential at the Chateau, but we'll do it step by step. part of my strategy as you were asking before but i have other things to do before that um and i understand some asian customers um have some expectations and we need to answer to that um there are one or two projects in saint-emilion i can talk to you later on and that might answer to your expectations but it won't be at chateau d'assault right now we'll have to talk about that in thought.
Speaker #0
But you're still welcoming people to visit and to do some activities?
Speaker #1
So far, we are not open to the public. But that's something I've decided and will be possible next year. So we'll start to open the doors, as we say, to the public.
Speaker #0
A beautiful place to do it.
Speaker #1
Exactly. And we want to share our experience and to have that Dasco experience. And I'm convinced that the people who come and visit, they are our best ambassadors all over the world. At least if they're happy with it, but I'm sure they will.
Speaker #0
Amazing. So next year, if you want to visit Chatedasso, it will be the right moment. And then to be honest, I depicted a very bad place to visit, but you can still come to Bordeaux. You will find the great places to sleep, to have fun and to do things. Plenty of good places for... eating also good stuff so no worries you can still travel to bordeaux but it was hard for us to organize that in a in a good way um so uh this was my question we got my questions regarding your experience at a core and how you like transit like your strategic perspectives on that if we go back to the moment when you were owning your business and considering the type of vineyard that you had at that time. point uh what were you doing in this business that you owned that you like kind of applied here at chateau d'assault in a larger structure and and maybe with more investment power and like firepower around your project I would say here it's definitely easier regarding investments because I'm quite lucky to have Dassault family that believe in the Chateau and they have the financial power to invest and say, OK, we can look at the five years or 10 years investment and we believe on that. When I was running my estate, we didn't have that time frame. When we were investing one euro, I needed it back right away. So that made it a little bit more difficult. But what helped me a lot here, learning from my past, is that knowing that every single detail is important. to make a very good wine and to make it exceptional. And when you have a small winery, of course, it's easier to make it, but you are very precise for every step of it. And that's really something I'm asking to the team here, being very precise for every single task we have, starting at the vineyard. in the cellar for bottling, for sales, and so on. So that's really something that helped me. And the second thing that helped me a lot is that on a small winery, I was convinced that I needed to know exactly how to make every single task. So the first thing I did when I arrived is I took driving license for the tractor and being able to drive the tractor in the vineyard and being able to... drive the tractor to lift the pallets and so on. And I was able to do everything. And that's completely different when you're a manager and you know exactly, well, that I know how to do that. I know to do a pumping over, filling in the barrels and also pruning the vines and so on. I personally think it makes the relationship easier with your staff.
Speaker #1
It's a good side quest as well to try to drive a tractor. I will try to learn that in the future.
Speaker #0
It's not that difficult, though.
Speaker #1
So Château d'Assaut is part of Classement des Vins de Saint-Emilion, Saint-Emilion ranking. Can you give us a bit more background about how Saint-Emilion wine ranking works?
Speaker #0
It's quite unique. actually. The classification started in 1955 compared to the middle when it was in 1855, so a century later. And this classification compared to all the other classifications is revised every 10 years. So every 10 years, we have to apply to that classification and we can ask to be upgraded as first classified growth. only apply to stay at classified growth. If you're not classified, if you're a Grand Cru, you can also apply to it. So that's something very important to keep in mind because it really means that there is not a single winery in the area wants to be classified that do not think every day when you have to make a choice in vinification, in the vineyard or whatever, thinking, is it? allowed for the classification or is it in the way the class classified growth should be and it really force everyone to increase the quality and for me uh and i'm talking to the consumers when you see a classified growth on the label it's a guarantee of quality especially because it's revised every 10 years so it's not something you keep for life The main difference with the Médoc is that in the Médoc, it's the name of the château which is classified. So they can buy a piece of land from their neighbor. They'll make, for instance, I don't know, Château Lingebage will buy a piece of land, a plot. They will be able to make Château Lingebage with that new plot. In Saint-Emilion, you're not allowed to. You'll have to wait the new classification, ask to classify that.
Speaker #1
land and then you'll be able to make wine out of it because in Saint-Emilion it's the terroir and the land which is classified that's why from what I see behind you so Chateau La Fleur for example yes I don't know if it has a classification it's not Saint-Emilion Grand Cru but not Grand Cru classified Grand Cru classé exactly and
Speaker #0
for instance in 2022 before 2022 we had another winery called Château Faurit-Souchard. which is just across the road. And in 2022, last classification, we asked... to include Château Foritzouchard in Château Dassault. So we applied for it and we filled in a big file and that was accepted. But we could not do it by ourselves.
Speaker #1
And so now you integrated this winery to Château Dassault?
Speaker #0
Exactly.
Speaker #1
So that's why we were able to produce a bit more. It's a very interesting point, this classification. So it's like every 10 years. So last time, 2022. So next one would be 32. So you're right in the middle.
Speaker #0
Right in the middle. And we'll have to start filling in the files in 2030. So only for three and a half more years before working hard again, which is very interested in that classification and that everyone has to keep in mind, is that the console that look at that, the classification, we'll look at the vineyard, how we work in the vineyard, how we work in the cellar, the winemaking process, the aging process, and all the process, but also there is a tasting, a blind tasting over the last 10 years, over the last 10 vintages. And you need to have at least 14 out of 20 for that tasting. So it's really linked to the wine and to the quality of the wine. Of course, if you work properly in your vineyard and in the cellar and everything, you should have the quality in the wine. And the blind tasting is over the last 10 vintages. Also to make sure the wine has the capacity to age. That's our DNA. The wine should age at least 10 years.
Speaker #1
That's a crazy work for classification. I'm not sure that there are a lot of comparisons possible in France. I'm not super aware of other classification that have the same dynamic rating of every estate inside of it and deciding if you stay, you upgrade, you downgrade.
Speaker #0
I'm pretty sure we are the only one.
Speaker #1
It's a really crazy thing that it's made by an association of producers, like by the appellation. because you always have like the journalists and critics who give points and stuff every year. But this rhythm and this organization is very impressive.
Speaker #0
It's like passing an exam. I mean, and you choose to pass the exam to go to university or whatever. So we do the same as wine growers. We decide to pass the exam. And I can tell you a lot of wineries want to be into it. I heard they were more than... 250 wineries that applied to it in 2022 and only 84 of us were um how do we say rewarded so um it represented about a little bit more than 10 percent of the total number of wineries i'm
Speaker #1
shocked because i didn't know that at all i thought that Like a lot of wineries were Saint-Emilion Grand Cru Classé, but no, actually it's Saint-Emilion Grand Cru.
Speaker #0
Grand Cru, exactly. You have either Saint-Emilion by itself or Saint-Emilion Grand Cru. And when you are Grand Cru, you can apply to the Grand Cru Classé.
Speaker #1
And Grand Cru, everyone can be?
Speaker #0
You choose for it. You need to age your wine a certain time. There are some...
Speaker #1
So it's basically like production guidelines. If you follow them, you're Grand Cru.
Speaker #0
Exactly. Exactly.
Speaker #1
Okay, so... What?
Speaker #0
The quality is also important because there is a tasting.
Speaker #1
Ah, there is a tasting for Grand Cru. Exactly.
Speaker #0
But that's more accessible.
Speaker #1
So in the pyramid, it's like wine from Saint-Emilion. This is everyone in Saint-Emilion. Saint-Emilion Grand Cru, you need to follow production guidelines plus the tasting, but it's relatively accessible. And then Saint-Emilion Grand Cru Classé, this where? It starts to be difficult. It's more selective. More selective. And then you have Grand Cru Classé B and Grand Cru Classé A. B and A, sorry.
Speaker #0
You have then the first Grand Cru Classé. Ah, yeah, first Grand Cru Classé. Premier Grand Cru Classé. A, there are two of it. Fijac and Pavie. And then you have the others. commonly a lot of people call B, but in fact, it's not called B.
Speaker #1
It's just premier grand cru classé. And then grand cru classé. Okay. It's a good lesson about Saint-Emilion. If you're in the middle of a wine exam, it's a good moment for you to have these notions come back. So yeah, next time, 2032, we hope that that is going to work. What's the strategy you want to... You want to have Lafleur on its own as it is a specific personality or you want to integrate? No,
Speaker #0
we want to keep Lafleur on its own. The terroir is different. We're working as we want. We work every day to make it classy. We'll see if we apply for it. But we definitely make it the best way as we can. But we want to keep it separate.
Speaker #1
Okay. In your presentation at the beginning of this episode, you said, I'm the CEO of Dassault Vineyards. Is it because you're thinking of expanding to other regions, other places, or because you already have basically two vineyards, so we can say vineyards?
Speaker #0
Actually, it's kind of both. It's Dassault Wine Estates is the name of the... The structure that owns the land. So there is Chateau Lafleur and Chateau Dassault, as we talked about. But Dassault Mouin Estates also owns shares in other venues. One in Burgundy called Clos des Varouales. Okay. There is also shares in Chateau Chauval Blanc. Okay. 5%. And Chateau Evangile in Pomerol. And Rieux Sec in Sauternes. And also Champagne Tétanger. so there are different other wineries we are linked with however I'm only in charge of Saint-Emilion that's the rest is basically participation it's participation and minority participation you can't do that much investing in Saint-Emilion I think we are quite good so far but we are always looking what's happening somewhere else. It depends on the opportunities. Today, it seems like there are some opportunities showing up, but we haven't found exactly what we would like to have.
Speaker #1
Okay, so maybe in 10 years, we'll have a different... We'll see. We'll have an episode two in another place in 10 years. I had a question. These different participation. Forgot about it. Marine will edit. Sorry, guys. No, no edit. No edit from Marine. Never mind. It will be for next time. Did you hire a new head of sales? Now that you're managing director, you also manage, you continue to manage sales.
Speaker #0
I'm continuing to managing sales. I have a sales rep. that helped me and she helps me quite well so far and i will probably hire someone else pretty soon but we try to set up nicely and we'll see how it's going on okay
Speaker #1
so my question is back in mind um so we were talking just about acquisition and like expanding but it's so you you have like 60 hectares not planted planted is a 50 hectare but it's big i mean especially for santa million you have some estate like seven eight exactly we're one of the biggest actually what's
Speaker #0
happening is that at dasso we did a lot of pulling out like sorry i start again And 10 years ago, we really studied exactly how was our terroir. We digged out. in different places in all the plots to know exactly our terroir and to make sure we had the right grape variety on the right terroir. After this study, we decided to pull out 25% of our vineyard to replant the right grape variety on the right terroir. So we are still doing that. uh will be at the end of it in 2035 so we still have seven years more to go um but that actually that's great because we decided to plant more cabernet franc um because we have terroir and soil that really fits well with the Cabernet Franc, a little bit more Cabernet Sauvignon as well. We were quite high in Merlot so far, 75%. We'll go down to 60%. So that will have an impact on the style and the profile of the wine, but that will be a lot more adapted. And also, that's perfect with the climate change. And so we have to go back to be back on your question. We have 30 hectares planted at that time, but we still have all the vines that we need to pull out. And we still have very young vines that we planted last year that are not in production yet.
Speaker #1
So this echoes super well when you were talking about like long term investment and seeing about 10 years. When you do things like when you have 50 hectares and you decide to pull out, I don't know, like 15 or 20 hectares and then replant little at little, then your production varies a lot. Exactly. The time that then the vine grows and starts producing nice grapes, you have like five years minimum, I guess, to start filling something. So it's a lot of like treasury management and production management to do, I guess, for you.
Speaker #0
Exactly. Yeah, that's... Always a little bit tricky and we always want to produce more, but we have to be patient. Wine is all about patience.
Speaker #1
True, it's the nature at work.
Speaker #0
Exactly.
Speaker #1
Thank you very much for all of this, Valérie. I think we have a nice, very nice episode together. I have three last questions. First, is there something we didn't mention, but that was very important for you to mention?
Speaker #0
Maybe I can mention this new cellar. You talked a little bit about it, but that was also a big investment. We built it in 2022 and we're very happy with it. That was definitely to be able to make wine with a wider capacity, but also to improve the quality. And we are very happy about it. It's not an architectural. I don't know how you say it in English, but we wanted to be sober, but very practical for the team. Very happy with it. And also one point is that we want it also to be eco, sustainable and great for the environment. So all the building has no AC, for instance. which is quite rare when you see all the windows that we have, except in the tasting room. And that really helps the quality of the wine. So we're very happy about it.
Speaker #1
Nice. And so next year, we'll be maybe able to visit it and have this view. And we'll put some pictures and videos on our Instagram. So you will have a little look on this place.
Speaker #0
More than welcome to be back whenever you want.
Speaker #1
So last question. Do you have a book recommendation for me?
Speaker #0
Yeah, actually, it's not literature or whatever, but that's really the message which is into it that I really like. It's the book Vigneron, written by Lord Gasparotto. Just talking about this lady who's a wine lover, writing about wine but wanted As always, I wanted to make her own wine. And the story really ends by this topic, which is wine is a story for life. It's really when you're into wine, it's really for the life. It's not easy. Definitely not easy. Not as easy as we think. But it's just a question about patience. And that's... a book which I really liked. And I really shared a lot of things with Laure Gasparotto when I was reading it.
Speaker #1
Yeah, I love the book. I really appreciate Laure. She came on the podcast a few years ago now, and she sometimes listens. So if you're listening.
Speaker #0
I've never met Laure, but hi, Laure.
Speaker #1
She's super kind and super interesting. And what I like about what she did in the South like that. is that she impersonates a journalist that is really skin in the game into making wines. And I've seen people, like I don't even remember their names, but you know, you do press travels with some journalists and they ask like... questions like oh but why don't you do why don't you do this this specific way and themselves they are like living paris city center uh just drinking wines uh freely uh whenever they they want because it's sample sent to them and i'm not doing uh stuff with their hands and so it's a bit frustrating when you see that especially when you're a winemaker yourself i guess and uh laura is the opposite of that she understands perfectly uh the wine she did wines herself and she and really has this passion about wine, this lifestyle about wine. So I love this.
Speaker #0
And what I like is that sometimes the message, especially the message is you should always respect what you're drinking. It might not be your taste, but you have to respect the work which is made behind it because it's a lot of work. And every person is doing its best to make it nice and enjoyable. So even if it's not your taste. respect the product 100 percent um do you have a recent wine that you taste and and you loved it definitely and actually it's really new brand new because it was last week and i had a chance to taste a 1916 vintage from chateau malartic la gravier it was at a specific dinner during the en primeur. And... Above the wine, what I loved about it is that thinking I'm drinking a wine which is 100 years old. And it was made during the First World War.
Speaker #1
That's true.
Speaker #0
And it was probably the woman who made that wine because the guys were in the war and fighting. And that made so much emotion. That's what I really like into wine. When you go back in the past, that's the only thing that you can drink with that age. You cannot eat a beef that is even 20 years old. So when you're drinking wine, which is older, it really brings you back in the past. And in some vintages, you were even not born, but really make you think about all that. So that created a lot of emotion at that tasting.
Speaker #1
Amazing. And finally, who is the next person I should interview?
Speaker #0
Definitely, Colline Golo, who's the artist who drew the new label for Chateau Dassault's 70th anniversary. Colline is a wonderful artist from Bordeaux, young. And I'm thinking of her because when she came here, she visited it. And talk to all the people who are working here. And she very easily created a label representing so well the spirit of the place and of the wine and of the people. So she's very special.
Speaker #1
It could be very interesting to have this point of view on the wines as well. And on how do you build a label? Very interesting.
Speaker #0
And wine. is a kind of art. So art and wine is linked. And you can see you have a piece of art behind you as well from Bernard Venet. So I think it's all, all is linked.
Speaker #1
Thank you very much Valérie for this conversation. It was an amazing moment. I learned a lot of things. I revised my Grand Cru Classé from Saint-Emilion. Thanks to you.
Speaker #0
I can't tell you more. There's a long list of things to talk about.
Speaker #1
And I learned a lot about Château d'Assaut. I can't wait to... taste it because it smells super good since we we started i just have this uh disorder since we we started so i can't wait to to taste it um thank you very much for for this conversation but if you like this episode don't forget to subscribe share it to two people who need to drink more centimillion wines i
Speaker #0
see you soon bye bye bye thank you antoine cheers It smells good. It's a way to decant.

About Wine Makers Show: the wine podcast

What to Expect

In-Depth Interviews: Hear from top figures in the wine world, from renowned vintners to unsung heroes, as they share their experiences, challenges, and secrets to success.
Club Episodes: Explore specific wine topics, from production techniques to tasting tips, in focused, occasional deep dives.
A Journey of Discovery: Whether you're a novice or a connoisseur, we break down the complexities of wine to make it accessible and engaging.

Why Listen?

Connect with Us

Visit winemakersshow.com to get in touch or suggest a guest.
Email Antoine directly at winemakersshow@gmail.com.
Follow the journey on Instagram: @winemakersshow
Join the Academy and learn everything about wine

Tune in to Wine Makers Show and sip on the stories behind every bottle!

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About Wine Makers Show: the wine podcast

What to Expect

In-Depth Interviews: Hear from top figures in the wine world, from renowned vintners to unsung heroes, as they share their experiences, challenges, and secrets to success.
Club Episodes: Explore specific wine topics, from production techniques to tasting tips, in focused, occasional deep dives.
A Journey of Discovery: Whether you're a novice or a connoisseur, we break down the complexities of wine to make it accessible and engaging.

Why Listen?

Connect with Us

Visit winemakersshow.com to get in touch or suggest a guest.
Email Antoine directly at winemakersshow@gmail.com.
Follow the journey on Instagram: @winemakersshow
Join the Academy and learn everything about wine

Tune in to Wine Makers Show and sip on the stories behind every bottle!

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Description

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📚 Vigneronne, by Laure Gasparotto

🍇 Dassault Wine Estates

🏆 Understand everything about Bordeaux classifications in a short video

🎁 Get your wine essentials on our shop: a curated selection of wine accessories, posters and much more

🗺️ Get the best Wine Map of the Bordeaux region: as information as decorative

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ALCOHOL ABUSE IS DANGEROUS FOUR YOUR HEALTH. CONSUME IN MODERATION.

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Transcription

Speaker #0
Hi Valérie.
Speaker #1
Hi Antoine.
Speaker #0
Thank you very much for welcoming us. We are currently in the tasting room of Château d'Assaut, just above your winemaking facilities. So I have beautiful views on the wines that are going to be in bottles in a few years, next year I guess.
Speaker #1
Next month actually.
Speaker #0
And you have a beautiful view over the vineyard just behind me. Thank you very much for welcoming us. We'll talk about a lot of things, about Saint-Emilion, about your career in the wine industry, about Chateau d'Asso, of course. But first, can you introduce yourself?
Speaker #1
Of course. Hello, Antoine. It's very nice meeting you and having you here. I'm Valérie Bev and I'm the CEO of the Vigneau Bleu d'Asso. I started here as the sales manager seven years ago and I've been... promoted last year as the CEO of the venue. Before that, I had my own wineries, the family wineries, and I was the winemaker there. And my grandfather was a winemaker as well in the Médoc, in Margaux, actually. So I crossed the river to come to Saint-Emilion. That happens sometimes.
Speaker #0
Which is still okay. It's not totally the right bank.
Speaker #1
He was still talking to me after that. So, yes, that was okay for him.
Speaker #0
So, you grew up in the vineyard?
Speaker #1
I grew up in the vineyard in the middle, as I said, and after I was in Bordeaux. And I've always said, I'll never do that job. So, as you can see, you should never say never. I worked for several years for the Groupe Accor, which is… hospitality group and I was in the sales department but
Speaker #0
I wanted to be back to my roots and went back to school at 30 years old and decided to be back in the in the wine business and so in at Accor you so you were doing sales so it's like selling hospitality to companies I guess like a hospitality plan for their you I don't know, like workers to go here and there. Exactly.
Speaker #1
I was only dealing with business part with the companies, being in charge of all the big companies in France. And I was specialized for the West of France and selling hospitality for all the hotels all over the world. So that was very interesting. It helped me knowing very well the economy of the region. And that was always linked to the wine as well, as we are in a wine region and a lot of companies were also in the wine industry. But I wanted to be back really to my roots.
Speaker #0
And so what happened at 30 years old? You start a new diploma. So you said you were a winemaker in your kind of previous life, previous professional life. So it means you started like DNO or something like winemaking diploma?
Speaker #1
Indeed. Actually, I didn't graduate for any diploma like DNO. But actually, I went back to that because with my husband, we had the opportunity to buy a small vineyard in Saint-Emilion, to be a partner to buy a vineyard and also a wine merchant, a wine company. So we bought the both of it. And I was the one who had to take care of it. So I did a lot of training and a lot of experiments with the council, local council, Conseil des Vins and also the university. And I was also hiring people who were very good in their department, like viticulture and also analogy. And I learned with them.
Speaker #0
How is it? to start entrepreneurship by taking over such a such a place and such like a structure must be half difficult because it's like the context we know in my industry is not super favorable for small structure or for independent structure so how is it to to be like back to it in in that way it's first first passionating you
Speaker #1
Of course, because you're learning all the time and you're really into it. So I really love that. And I'm still in the industry. So it means that that was a good choice. It's also very stressful because I took over in 2006, which wasn't an easy vintage to start with. and um We had to be really aware of everything and lots of male due pressure and also managing the staff. I was a woman, I'm still a woman, but I was a woman at that time, 30 years old, with people who were 50 or 60, mainly men. We're not used to being managed by a woman. So we had to find a way to talk to each other, listen to each other and find a way to talk to each other. a good way to work together.
Speaker #0
So you started there in 2006 and you stayed like 10 years? 10 years,
Speaker #1
yeah, until 2018.
Speaker #0
Okay, so a bit more than 10 years. And then you sold everything?
Speaker #1
I sold my shares and arrived at Chateau d'Asso because there was quite a big challenge here for the sales because the Chateau d'Asso used to be 24 hectares, went up. to now 39 hectares. And there is also another winery called Chateau La Fleur, which spreads over 20 hectares. So totally there are 60 hectares of vineyard. And the manager at that time needed someone more experimented in sales.
Speaker #0
When you double the volume of production, you need to have someone to sell these bottles. Exactly.
Speaker #1
They are two points in making wines. They are making wines, but also being able to sell it.
Speaker #0
How is the process to, either you now as a general manager or back in when you were hired, what is the process to hire a head of sales or senior sales for a winery? What are you looking for in terms of profiles? What are the qualities that you must have to do this job?
Speaker #1
First of all, I think it's important to know quite well how the Place de Bordeaux works. Um, it's a little bit different from all over, all other places in the world. So you have the courtier, the negos, and, um, so that helps a lot knowing that. but first of all, you definitely have to be a good salesman or saleswoman, be sensitive to, all the the your customers' expectations and making sure you're answering to that. And also one very important thing is to be able to speak another language, especially English. It's even better if you can speak Chinese or Japanese or Portuguese, but at least English. It's necessary. And I actually am saying that, but I've just hired a salesperson. And she has never worked in Bordeaux. She comes from Champagne. Because I wanted someone also who had a different background to be able to not be influenced by all the little habits we have here and being more open.
Speaker #0
Bringing new ideas and not staying in between the same people all the time.
Speaker #1
Exactly.
Speaker #0
So you arrived, I guess, if now you're general manager, it means that the last six years must have globally been a success. But how was it? What were your goals? What is the trajectory that you had over these six years before becoming a general manager?
Speaker #1
Well, you mean for the sales?
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
That was to establish a sales strategy. And so to strengthen the links with the negotiations and with our customers all over the world. And making sure ordering some Chateau d'Asso is an habit for them and just one shot. So that was the main goal. And also for the other wineries, Chateau Lafleur, making sure we find... customers that are quite um have some legacy and make sure they they enjoy and that their customers will still still order our wines yeah plus i guess i have a kind of a story around chateau la fleur and not just be like yeah it's the other other wine of chateau d'assaut or something like that exactly um and there are two wines quite different uh even they are almost at the same place. The terroir is completely different. The exposure is different. So that... also makes a kind of wine with a different profile. And that's great for the team here. And also for me, having two wineries, but with two different profiles.
Speaker #0
Yeah, you have an amazing map just behind you. I'm not sure we're going to see it at the camera. I'm not sure it's in it, but... We'll potentially add a picture of it or something. But yeah, we can see that you have like two zones, one blue, one orange. And I guess it's the terroir. And so this is the different estates that you have.
Speaker #1
Exactly. And just a quick summary to explain you. Chateau d'Asso is exposed on the north face of the vineyard. All the plots are facing north. And Chateau Lafleur, all the plots are facing south. And it makes a huge difference, especially with global warming. Dassault has naturally more freshness in swines because it has less sunny exposure compared to Chateau Lafleur. And Chateau Lafleur, we usually harvest at least two or three weeks ahead from Chateau Dassault because of that exposure.
Speaker #0
So for people listening, the sun has a huge impact on the maturity of the grape? because the more sun you have, the more sugar you will have inside the grape. And this is the sugar that turns into alcohol. So that's why the more you're in the south, the more you have alcohol in your wines, generally speaking. And so that's why you have such a difference between north and south.
Speaker #1
Exactly.
Speaker #0
When did the Dassault family took over the estate?
Speaker #1
In 1955. We celebrated the 70th anniversary last year. And in fact, Marcel Dassault, who's a very famous French engineer.
Speaker #0
The founder of Dassault?
Speaker #1
The founder of Dassault Aviation Company was a man crazy about wine. And he had one of the nicest wine cellars in Paris. And one of these factories was and still is in Bordeaux. So after the Second World War, when he was having customers, visiting the facilities in Marignac, he would take them also visiting a winery, which is the pretty much common visit that you can do in the area. I would do the same. Exactly. And he said, why not having my own winery? And he came here, walked down in the park and really fell in love with the estate. So back in that time, it was named Chateau Couperie. And he decided to rename it with his last name, Chateau Dassault. And it's still in the same family since. Now the grandchildren are running it.
Speaker #0
All right. So it's been 70 years.
Speaker #1
70 years. Exactly.
Speaker #0
And so for the 2025 vintage, are you, so you're releasing it today, from today, in these last weeks, because we are in April 2026, so right in the premiere week. Exactly. Are you doing a special event, label? something for this anniversary?
Speaker #1
We did a special event last month in Paris with journalists and sommeliers in Paris. And we'll have a special release of the 2023 vintage with a specific label drawn by a local artist. And for the 2025 vintage, which will be the 70th, vintage made by the winery, we might have another surprise. But you'll have to wait and come back in a year or two to know more about it.
Speaker #0
All right. So stay tuned. You know that. You need to follow in the next year. Yeah, because basically you're releasing 2025 to the professionals now, to the place of Bordeaux, but it's not really available to the public and made available to the public. So that's why you have this.
Speaker #1
It will be available next year. So we made a specific magnum I'm I'm to release this year on the 2023 vintage. And we picked the 2023 vintage because it's the first vintage where we have changed a little bit Dassault style and the winemaking process. We have a new wine cellar. We have new plots coming into the final blend. and it's also... The vintage that we find that is the more approachable younger compared to the previous vintages that we made, which were a little bit more structured and you needed to wait longer before drinking it. So we thought that would be interesting to have that 23 vintage turned into a special level.
Speaker #0
Nice. So tell me about it, because in your... experiences when we're talking about your experiences i stopped just before you become managing director i told you how was the sales uh what do you have so uh one year ago basically you become general manager How does that happen and what are your challenges?
Speaker #1
That happened that the previous manager decided to do something else and the president of the company called me and said, well, Valerie, would you like to take over and follow up on that mission? And I accepted with joy because I really liked it. This place, I like working for Dassault family. And there are so many things to do here. We've done a lot, but we are not at the end of it. So that was a real pleasure. I knew very well the team as I've been working with them for seven years now. And we get along very well. And so very happy about that. It wasn't the easiest time for taking that. new job because um the industry and the wine business is a little bit tougher right now but i'm convinced that we have lots to do and that uh you know it's a lot of things you have hills and up and downs and maybe we're a little bit more in the downs now for the border wines but uh and the wine in general but it will go up again for sure and so you're um you
Speaker #0
Challenges and next steps. So you have this international context about wines in general, alcohol beverage in general, but wines in particular, and Bordeaux wines even more specific, decreasing. I guess one of the solutions in Bordeaux wines is quality, like the top-notch wines will, I hope, never be in turmoil or in difficulties. Is it the path you're following or your... Like, basically, how do you answer to this crisis?
Speaker #1
Well, I'm convinced of one thing, is that we have to open the bottles, make sure people drink our wines, taste it, and put back the wine into our meals. And the wines have never been that good. The quality is the highest we have ever had. All the wineries, all the estates have made lots and lots of efforts about that. So the wines haven't been at that quality level as ever. So that's something we have to make sure people know about it. I'm convinced also that we have the best value for money ever. And we just have to make sure. People all over the world know about that. We have to be and keep being the best ambassador as possible and make sure we train also the young generations. They have to know more about the wine and make sure also the sommeliers are trained well by us, by the CVB, by all the different... organizations specialized in wine because they are our best ambassadors as well and there is no way that we don't go back to a wine consumption maybe the wine consumption won't increase but at least we'll stabilized um we've all the statistics said we don't we drink less but we drink best quality so that's really something we have to rely on um
Speaker #0
and i just circling back on the best value for money uh i totally agree and i like i think there are some estates especially in burgundy by the way but i love i still love burgundy region but that you can't even think of drinking because it's way too expensive uh to to find them but on the other hand especially in bordeaux it feels like the the price value uh ratio is
Speaker #1
insanely good and it's like looks like it's the best time to buy some bottle wines and have them sit in a cellar and drinking them in a few years when you're ready for it exactly and you've said everything drinking them we have to make sure we open a bottle and we drink it and we're also making wine now a bit more with a young approach as i was saying before because a lot of people don't want to wait 20 years as we used to. before drinking and opening a bottle. So we have to make sure we make it wine to age, but also being approachable younger. And it's something you share. We have to adapt also to the new way of drinking. We've noticed you don't sit at a table for family lunch or dinner or friends dinner. It's young people do it more like an appetizer, a drink thing. So making wines that are approachable younger makes it easier also to share it easily and in a less conventional way as we used to. So we have to adapt.
Speaker #0
to that. 100%. And the best bottle is an empty bottle with good friends.
Speaker #1
Exactly.
Speaker #0
So you worked at Accor before. I have two questions around that. First, my first question is how do you see the hospitality, the wine hospitality in the Bordeaux region?
Speaker #1
That's a good question. Is it a tricky question? No, no, no,
Speaker #0
no tricks. Just your opinion about it and like your strategic view around it.
Speaker #1
I think, and we are probably responsible for that, but there was a lack of Bordeaux bottles in hospitality and in restaurants for a long time, during several years. And that has been a big mistake. Probably, maybe because winemakers were a little bit too proud or didn't need to sell locally, as they were selling very well all over the world. But that really helped the border bashing thing to happen. There are other reasons, of course, but we're... Working hard on that to change that way. And I'm quite impressed to see how many restaurants now are back into Bordeaux wines. And I thank them for that because that's really very important. Like you were talking about Burgundy. Burgundy is so strong about that. When you go in a restaurant in Beaune, 99% of the wines are from Burgundy. and there it is. Right. I was in Spain a few months ago and there were only the wines from their area. So, of course, as we host people that come from all different countries and a lot of people from the wine business, it's great to be able to offer them other regions, but Bordeaux has to be strong on the wine list. And it's even better if they are able to make it at a good price. Because that's another point. I know it's a tricky thing because I know that's important for them to make a margin on wine because they have a small margin on food. However, you can notice it everywhere. If the wine is at a good price, you'll sell bottle. If it's too expensive, people at the best will have a glass of wine and at the worst, won't drink. and bottles have to be back on the table. And for that, you need to have a good price. And they'll make money on the volume. Of course, the margin will be smaller, but they'll make margin on the volume.
Speaker #0
Yeah, it's true that when you go to a restaurant and you see the price of some bottles, you're like, maybe I will drink it at home after the dinner or in another setting. But yeah, it's true that sometimes some restaurants tend to be a... A bit too much on the margin side of the things. Exactly.
Speaker #1
So regarding hospitality, we're not completely at the end of it, but there is a large improvement on that. And that's a good point because we all have to make an effort for that. Duclos Wine Negos is making a wonderful event, Bordeaux on the Table, at a very selection of wines with a very small margin for restaurants. And that's great. That's the best communication that we have and the best offer that we can have for the consumers.
Speaker #0
And second question regarding hospitality, but more from a stakeholder perspective in it. How do you see the, like, maybe to give you a bit of context, Marine and I are living in Hong Kong. And so one of the things we thought of doing was basically bring tourists. being Chinese and Hong Kongers, to Bordeaux region and to wine regions globally. And when we were looking at Bordeaux, the things that... we analyzed is that the hospitality offer is a bit restricted like the number of places with rooms that you can book is pretty low the quality of the rooms are like there is a big variety from an international standard you have things that are very authentic and very beautiful i would love to go there but i don't see hong kongers or chinese going there because like noisy old furniture that type of stuff which is not very international standard I'm Tom. um difficult to book online no agency commission so for us the only margin possible was on our client but not on the people for who we are bringing business so like all these type of things made us think wow it's actually difficult to organize a trip in like the number of accommodation the number of activities everything is like restricted how do you analyze that and is it a priority for you with this hospitality background to develop something like that here.
Speaker #1
Maybe you didn't get the right relations. Because listening to you, I think we can talk about that later on. But I agree. That's maybe one thing. We're not listening enough to the consumers from the different places. A lot of places have their French approach. but not international approach. I think it's evolving. It's improving in different places. And as far as we are concerned at Chateau d'Assault, we won't have rooms for rent immediately. That might happen in three or four years. But we have the potential at the Chateau, but we'll do it step by step. part of my strategy as you were asking before but i have other things to do before that um and i understand some asian customers um have some expectations and we need to answer to that um there are one or two projects in saint-emilion i can talk to you later on and that might answer to your expectations but it won't be at chateau d'assault right now we'll have to talk about that in thought.
Speaker #0
But you're still welcoming people to visit and to do some activities?
Speaker #1
So far, we are not open to the public. But that's something I've decided and will be possible next year. So we'll start to open the doors, as we say, to the public.
Speaker #0
A beautiful place to do it.
Speaker #1
Exactly. And we want to share our experience and to have that Dasco experience. And I'm convinced that the people who come and visit, they are our best ambassadors all over the world. At least if they're happy with it, but I'm sure they will.
Speaker #0
Amazing. So next year, if you want to visit Chatedasso, it will be the right moment. And then to be honest, I depicted a very bad place to visit, but you can still come to Bordeaux. You will find the great places to sleep, to have fun and to do things. Plenty of good places for... eating also good stuff so no worries you can still travel to bordeaux but it was hard for us to organize that in a in a good way um so uh this was my question we got my questions regarding your experience at a core and how you like transit like your strategic perspectives on that if we go back to the moment when you were owning your business and considering the type of vineyard that you had at that time. point uh what were you doing in this business that you owned that you like kind of applied here at chateau d'assault in a larger structure and and maybe with more investment power and like firepower around your project I would say here it's definitely easier regarding investments because I'm quite lucky to have Dassault family that believe in the Chateau and they have the financial power to invest and say, OK, we can look at the five years or 10 years investment and we believe on that. When I was running my estate, we didn't have that time frame. When we were investing one euro, I needed it back right away. So that made it a little bit more difficult. But what helped me a lot here, learning from my past, is that knowing that every single detail is important. to make a very good wine and to make it exceptional. And when you have a small winery, of course, it's easier to make it, but you are very precise for every step of it. And that's really something I'm asking to the team here, being very precise for every single task we have, starting at the vineyard. in the cellar for bottling, for sales, and so on. So that's really something that helped me. And the second thing that helped me a lot is that on a small winery, I was convinced that I needed to know exactly how to make every single task. So the first thing I did when I arrived is I took driving license for the tractor and being able to drive the tractor in the vineyard and being able to... drive the tractor to lift the pallets and so on. And I was able to do everything. And that's completely different when you're a manager and you know exactly, well, that I know how to do that. I know to do a pumping over, filling in the barrels and also pruning the vines and so on. I personally think it makes the relationship easier with your staff.
Speaker #1
It's a good side quest as well to try to drive a tractor. I will try to learn that in the future.
Speaker #0
It's not that difficult, though.
Speaker #1
So Château d'Assaut is part of Classement des Vins de Saint-Emilion, Saint-Emilion ranking. Can you give us a bit more background about how Saint-Emilion wine ranking works?
Speaker #0
It's quite unique. actually. The classification started in 1955 compared to the middle when it was in 1855, so a century later. And this classification compared to all the other classifications is revised every 10 years. So every 10 years, we have to apply to that classification and we can ask to be upgraded as first classified growth. only apply to stay at classified growth. If you're not classified, if you're a Grand Cru, you can also apply to it. So that's something very important to keep in mind because it really means that there is not a single winery in the area wants to be classified that do not think every day when you have to make a choice in vinification, in the vineyard or whatever, thinking, is it? allowed for the classification or is it in the way the class classified growth should be and it really force everyone to increase the quality and for me uh and i'm talking to the consumers when you see a classified growth on the label it's a guarantee of quality especially because it's revised every 10 years so it's not something you keep for life The main difference with the Médoc is that in the Médoc, it's the name of the château which is classified. So they can buy a piece of land from their neighbor. They'll make, for instance, I don't know, Château Lingebage will buy a piece of land, a plot. They will be able to make Château Lingebage with that new plot. In Saint-Emilion, you're not allowed to. You'll have to wait the new classification, ask to classify that.
Speaker #1
land and then you'll be able to make wine out of it because in Saint-Emilion it's the terroir and the land which is classified that's why from what I see behind you so Chateau La Fleur for example yes I don't know if it has a classification it's not Saint-Emilion Grand Cru but not Grand Cru classified Grand Cru classé exactly and
Speaker #0
for instance in 2022 before 2022 we had another winery called Château Faurit-Souchard. which is just across the road. And in 2022, last classification, we asked... to include Château Foritzouchard in Château Dassault. So we applied for it and we filled in a big file and that was accepted. But we could not do it by ourselves.
Speaker #1
And so now you integrated this winery to Château Dassault?
Speaker #0
Exactly.
Speaker #1
So that's why we were able to produce a bit more. It's a very interesting point, this classification. So it's like every 10 years. So last time, 2022. So next one would be 32. So you're right in the middle.
Speaker #0
Right in the middle. And we'll have to start filling in the files in 2030. So only for three and a half more years before working hard again, which is very interested in that classification and that everyone has to keep in mind, is that the console that look at that, the classification, we'll look at the vineyard, how we work in the vineyard, how we work in the cellar, the winemaking process, the aging process, and all the process, but also there is a tasting, a blind tasting over the last 10 years, over the last 10 vintages. And you need to have at least 14 out of 20 for that tasting. So it's really linked to the wine and to the quality of the wine. Of course, if you work properly in your vineyard and in the cellar and everything, you should have the quality in the wine. And the blind tasting is over the last 10 vintages. Also to make sure the wine has the capacity to age. That's our DNA. The wine should age at least 10 years.
Speaker #1
That's a crazy work for classification. I'm not sure that there are a lot of comparisons possible in France. I'm not super aware of other classification that have the same dynamic rating of every estate inside of it and deciding if you stay, you upgrade, you downgrade.
Speaker #0
I'm pretty sure we are the only one.
Speaker #1
It's a really crazy thing that it's made by an association of producers, like by the appellation. because you always have like the journalists and critics who give points and stuff every year. But this rhythm and this organization is very impressive.
Speaker #0
It's like passing an exam. I mean, and you choose to pass the exam to go to university or whatever. So we do the same as wine growers. We decide to pass the exam. And I can tell you a lot of wineries want to be into it. I heard they were more than... 250 wineries that applied to it in 2022 and only 84 of us were um how do we say rewarded so um it represented about a little bit more than 10 percent of the total number of wineries i'm
Speaker #1
shocked because i didn't know that at all i thought that Like a lot of wineries were Saint-Emilion Grand Cru Classé, but no, actually it's Saint-Emilion Grand Cru.
Speaker #0
Grand Cru, exactly. You have either Saint-Emilion by itself or Saint-Emilion Grand Cru. And when you are Grand Cru, you can apply to the Grand Cru Classé.
Speaker #1
And Grand Cru, everyone can be?
Speaker #0
You choose for it. You need to age your wine a certain time. There are some...
Speaker #1
So it's basically like production guidelines. If you follow them, you're Grand Cru.
Speaker #0
Exactly. Exactly.
Speaker #1
Okay, so... What?
Speaker #0
The quality is also important because there is a tasting.
Speaker #1
Ah, there is a tasting for Grand Cru. Exactly.
Speaker #0
But that's more accessible.
Speaker #1
So in the pyramid, it's like wine from Saint-Emilion. This is everyone in Saint-Emilion. Saint-Emilion Grand Cru, you need to follow production guidelines plus the tasting, but it's relatively accessible. And then Saint-Emilion Grand Cru Classé, this where? It starts to be difficult. It's more selective. More selective. And then you have Grand Cru Classé B and Grand Cru Classé A. B and A, sorry.
Speaker #0
You have then the first Grand Cru Classé. Ah, yeah, first Grand Cru Classé. Premier Grand Cru Classé. A, there are two of it. Fijac and Pavie. And then you have the others. commonly a lot of people call B, but in fact, it's not called B.
Speaker #1
It's just premier grand cru classé. And then grand cru classé. Okay. It's a good lesson about Saint-Emilion. If you're in the middle of a wine exam, it's a good moment for you to have these notions come back. So yeah, next time, 2032, we hope that that is going to work. What's the strategy you want to... You want to have Lafleur on its own as it is a specific personality or you want to integrate? No,
Speaker #0
we want to keep Lafleur on its own. The terroir is different. We're working as we want. We work every day to make it classy. We'll see if we apply for it. But we definitely make it the best way as we can. But we want to keep it separate.
Speaker #1
Okay. In your presentation at the beginning of this episode, you said, I'm the CEO of Dassault Vineyards. Is it because you're thinking of expanding to other regions, other places, or because you already have basically two vineyards, so we can say vineyards?
Speaker #0
Actually, it's kind of both. It's Dassault Wine Estates is the name of the... The structure that owns the land. So there is Chateau Lafleur and Chateau Dassault, as we talked about. But Dassault Mouin Estates also owns shares in other venues. One in Burgundy called Clos des Varouales. Okay. There is also shares in Chateau Chauval Blanc. Okay. 5%. And Chateau Evangile in Pomerol. And Rieux Sec in Sauternes. And also Champagne Tétanger. so there are different other wineries we are linked with however I'm only in charge of Saint-Emilion that's the rest is basically participation it's participation and minority participation you can't do that much investing in Saint-Emilion I think we are quite good so far but we are always looking what's happening somewhere else. It depends on the opportunities. Today, it seems like there are some opportunities showing up, but we haven't found exactly what we would like to have.
Speaker #1
Okay, so maybe in 10 years, we'll have a different... We'll see. We'll have an episode two in another place in 10 years. I had a question. These different participation. Forgot about it. Marine will edit. Sorry, guys. No, no edit. No edit from Marine. Never mind. It will be for next time. Did you hire a new head of sales? Now that you're managing director, you also manage, you continue to manage sales.
Speaker #0
I'm continuing to managing sales. I have a sales rep. that helped me and she helps me quite well so far and i will probably hire someone else pretty soon but we try to set up nicely and we'll see how it's going on okay
Speaker #1
so my question is back in mind um so we were talking just about acquisition and like expanding but it's so you you have like 60 hectares not planted planted is a 50 hectare but it's big i mean especially for santa million you have some estate like seven eight exactly we're one of the biggest actually what's
Speaker #0
happening is that at dasso we did a lot of pulling out like sorry i start again And 10 years ago, we really studied exactly how was our terroir. We digged out. in different places in all the plots to know exactly our terroir and to make sure we had the right grape variety on the right terroir. After this study, we decided to pull out 25% of our vineyard to replant the right grape variety on the right terroir. So we are still doing that. uh will be at the end of it in 2035 so we still have seven years more to go um but that actually that's great because we decided to plant more cabernet franc um because we have terroir and soil that really fits well with the Cabernet Franc, a little bit more Cabernet Sauvignon as well. We were quite high in Merlot so far, 75%. We'll go down to 60%. So that will have an impact on the style and the profile of the wine, but that will be a lot more adapted. And also, that's perfect with the climate change. And so we have to go back to be back on your question. We have 30 hectares planted at that time, but we still have all the vines that we need to pull out. And we still have very young vines that we planted last year that are not in production yet.
Speaker #1
So this echoes super well when you were talking about like long term investment and seeing about 10 years. When you do things like when you have 50 hectares and you decide to pull out, I don't know, like 15 or 20 hectares and then replant little at little, then your production varies a lot. Exactly. The time that then the vine grows and starts producing nice grapes, you have like five years minimum, I guess, to start filling something. So it's a lot of like treasury management and production management to do, I guess, for you.
Speaker #0
Exactly. Yeah, that's... Always a little bit tricky and we always want to produce more, but we have to be patient. Wine is all about patience.
Speaker #1
True, it's the nature at work.
Speaker #0
Exactly.
Speaker #1
Thank you very much for all of this, Valérie. I think we have a nice, very nice episode together. I have three last questions. First, is there something we didn't mention, but that was very important for you to mention?
Speaker #0
Maybe I can mention this new cellar. You talked a little bit about it, but that was also a big investment. We built it in 2022 and we're very happy with it. That was definitely to be able to make wine with a wider capacity, but also to improve the quality. And we are very happy about it. It's not an architectural. I don't know how you say it in English, but we wanted to be sober, but very practical for the team. Very happy with it. And also one point is that we want it also to be eco, sustainable and great for the environment. So all the building has no AC, for instance. which is quite rare when you see all the windows that we have, except in the tasting room. And that really helps the quality of the wine. So we're very happy about it.
Speaker #1
Nice. And so next year, we'll be maybe able to visit it and have this view. And we'll put some pictures and videos on our Instagram. So you will have a little look on this place.
Speaker #0
More than welcome to be back whenever you want.
Speaker #1
So last question. Do you have a book recommendation for me?
Speaker #0
Yeah, actually, it's not literature or whatever, but that's really the message which is into it that I really like. It's the book Vigneron, written by Lord Gasparotto. Just talking about this lady who's a wine lover, writing about wine but wanted As always, I wanted to make her own wine. And the story really ends by this topic, which is wine is a story for life. It's really when you're into wine, it's really for the life. It's not easy. Definitely not easy. Not as easy as we think. But it's just a question about patience. And that's... a book which I really liked. And I really shared a lot of things with Laure Gasparotto when I was reading it.
Speaker #1
Yeah, I love the book. I really appreciate Laure. She came on the podcast a few years ago now, and she sometimes listens. So if you're listening.
Speaker #0
I've never met Laure, but hi, Laure.
Speaker #1
She's super kind and super interesting. And what I like about what she did in the South like that. is that she impersonates a journalist that is really skin in the game into making wines. And I've seen people, like I don't even remember their names, but you know, you do press travels with some journalists and they ask like... questions like oh but why don't you do why don't you do this this specific way and themselves they are like living paris city center uh just drinking wines uh freely uh whenever they they want because it's sample sent to them and i'm not doing uh stuff with their hands and so it's a bit frustrating when you see that especially when you're a winemaker yourself i guess and uh laura is the opposite of that she understands perfectly uh the wine she did wines herself and she and really has this passion about wine, this lifestyle about wine. So I love this.
Speaker #0
And what I like is that sometimes the message, especially the message is you should always respect what you're drinking. It might not be your taste, but you have to respect the work which is made behind it because it's a lot of work. And every person is doing its best to make it nice and enjoyable. So even if it's not your taste. respect the product 100 percent um do you have a recent wine that you taste and and you loved it definitely and actually it's really new brand new because it was last week and i had a chance to taste a 1916 vintage from chateau malartic la gravier it was at a specific dinner during the en primeur. And... Above the wine, what I loved about it is that thinking I'm drinking a wine which is 100 years old. And it was made during the First World War.
Speaker #1
That's true.
Speaker #0
And it was probably the woman who made that wine because the guys were in the war and fighting. And that made so much emotion. That's what I really like into wine. When you go back in the past, that's the only thing that you can drink with that age. You cannot eat a beef that is even 20 years old. So when you're drinking wine, which is older, it really brings you back in the past. And in some vintages, you were even not born, but really make you think about all that. So that created a lot of emotion at that tasting.
Speaker #1
Amazing. And finally, who is the next person I should interview?
Speaker #0
Definitely, Colline Golo, who's the artist who drew the new label for Chateau Dassault's 70th anniversary. Colline is a wonderful artist from Bordeaux, young. And I'm thinking of her because when she came here, she visited it. And talk to all the people who are working here. And she very easily created a label representing so well the spirit of the place and of the wine and of the people. So she's very special.
Speaker #1
It could be very interesting to have this point of view on the wines as well. And on how do you build a label? Very interesting.
Speaker #0
And wine. is a kind of art. So art and wine is linked. And you can see you have a piece of art behind you as well from Bernard Venet. So I think it's all, all is linked.
Speaker #1
Thank you very much Valérie for this conversation. It was an amazing moment. I learned a lot of things. I revised my Grand Cru Classé from Saint-Emilion. Thanks to you.
Speaker #0
I can't tell you more. There's a long list of things to talk about.
Speaker #1
And I learned a lot about Château d'Assaut. I can't wait to... taste it because it smells super good since we we started i just have this uh disorder since we we started so i can't wait to to taste it um thank you very much for for this conversation but if you like this episode don't forget to subscribe share it to two people who need to drink more centimillion wines i
Speaker #0
see you soon bye bye bye thank you antoine cheers It smells good. It's a way to decant.

About Wine Makers Show: the wine podcast

What to Expect

In-Depth Interviews: Hear from top figures in the wine world, from renowned vintners to unsung heroes, as they share their experiences, challenges, and secrets to success.
Club Episodes: Explore specific wine topics, from production techniques to tasting tips, in focused, occasional deep dives.
A Journey of Discovery: Whether you're a novice or a connoisseur, we break down the complexities of wine to make it accessible and engaging.

Why Listen?

Connect with Us

Visit winemakersshow.com to get in touch or suggest a guest.
Email Antoine directly at winemakersshow@gmail.com.
Follow the journey on Instagram: @winemakersshow
Join the Academy and learn everything about wine

Tune in to Wine Makers Show and sip on the stories behind every bottle!

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

About Wine Makers Show: the wine podcast

What to Expect

In-Depth Interviews: Hear from top figures in the wine world, from renowned vintners to unsung heroes, as they share their experiences, challenges, and secrets to success.
Club Episodes: Explore specific wine topics, from production techniques to tasting tips, in focused, occasional deep dives.
A Journey of Discovery: Whether you're a novice or a connoisseur, we break down the complexities of wine to make it accessible and engaging.

Why Listen?

Connect with Us

Visit winemakersshow.com to get in touch or suggest a guest.
Email Antoine directly at winemakersshow@gmail.com.
Follow the journey on Instagram: @winemakersshow
Join the Academy and learn everything about wine

Tune in to Wine Makers Show and sip on the stories behind every bottle!

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

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