#115 - Inside California Wine: with Christopher Beros, Asia Director of the California Wine Institute | Wine Makers Show: the wine podcast

Description

Forget everything you think you know about California wine. Pour yourself a glass, settle in, and let Christopher Beros, Asia Director of the California Wine Institute, take you from the fog-cooled vineyards of Napa and Sonoma all the way to the booming wine bars of Southeast Asia. Recorded live at Vinexpo Hong Kong, this conversation crackles with the energy of a region that refuses to sit still.

Christopher trades finance for wine, builds an import business in mainland China, then spends a decade championing California across Greater China and Southeast Asia. Along the way he unpacks the 154 AVAs that make up the most diverse wine state on earth, retells the Judgment of Paris with an insider's eye, and explains why California's "no rules" philosophy turns winemakers loose to experiment.

Then we open the bottles. Four Chardonnays, all from Carneros, all wildly different.

Tune in for a masterclass in why California is far more than big oaky whites, and why Asia's most curious drinkers are falling for it.

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📚 The Wines of California, by Elaine Chukan Brown

📚 The Wine Bible, by Karen MacNeil

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🇭🇰 More details about the California Wine Month in Hong Kong & Macau

🍷 The wines we tasted:

Château Montelena Chardonnay 2023
Rombauer Chardonnay 2024
Hyde de Villaine (HdV) De La Guerra Chardonnay 2023
The Prisoner Wine Company The Prisoner Chardonnay 2021

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My name is Antoine, and I’ve been passionate about wine for several years. I knew nothing at first, so I went out to meet the biggest figures in the industry and turned those encounters into a podcast that’s now listened to by over 100,000 people. I now share with you what I’ve learned, and I hope we embark together on a beautiful wine journey to discover the finest experiences.

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Transcription

Speaker #0
Hi, Christopher.
Speaker #1
Hi.
Speaker #0
Thank you very much for welcoming us in this booth. So we are in Vinaxpo right now.
Speaker #1
Welcome to California away from California.
Speaker #0
It's a good way to say it. I see a lot of ocean on the screen just behind the camera. So it gives me the appetite to come discover. Well, you should.
Speaker #1
You should come and visit us.
Speaker #0
It would be my pleasure. I've never been to California, actually.
Speaker #1
All the more reason.
Speaker #0
So one more reason. And thank you very much for doing this interview this morning. We'll talk about a lot of things. But first, can you introduce yourself?
Speaker #1
Sure. My name is Christopher Barros. I am the director of Greater China and Southeast Asia for the California Wine Institute. I've been involved with wine for much of my career, not all my career, but much of my career. And I lived and worked in mainland China for a long time. But since 2015, I've been having a much larger area. So I am back. to living in California. I lived in Shanghai for a long time, but I live in California again, and I just travel back and forth, which is okay. It's a little tiring, but it allows me to see a lot of greater China and Southeast Asia, which is where I spend most of my time.
Speaker #0
How did you start in the wine industry?
Speaker #1
That's a great question. So I was actually in finance, and I was covering food and beverage companies? It was my industry specialty. And then in 2006, I came to China for the very first time working on a transaction, actually. And I was so amazed by China. I knew that I wanted to get involved somehow in business in China. And I actually started a company importing California wine to mainland China. And I ran that company until 2015 when we sold it. And then the Wine Institute approached me and asked me if I'd be interested in.
Speaker #0
representing them in this part of the world and i've been doing it ever since how was the the reception of uh californian wines in china at that point because like i know that from so from a french point of view right there was a a moment in the history of china when it was just like booming for french wines so it's just like especially red bordeaux varietals exactly red bottle of wine with a chateau on it and then you were starting to be sold out. Yeah.
Speaker #1
So between 2007 and 2010, about the only thing that was really selling in mainland China were red Bordeaux varietals, no Burgundy, no white wines, no American wines. It was just those wines. And, but what's happened in China, which is so interesting to me is the, the consumer has become much, much more sophisticated and much, much more open-minded. And so... So people now are drinking California Zinfandel or German Rieslings or a lot of white wine. So it's actually very exciting and to me, very interesting what's happening there now.
Speaker #0
For me, it's actually a discovery as well. When I went in China, in mainland, I was like talking with wine passionates and I was very impressed by their culture of wine. They have a deep understanding of the places that... A lot of my friends don't even have in France, you know, like they talk about certain regions in France, the type of grape varieties and everything. So I guess it's the same for you.
Speaker #1
Well, you know, it's very interesting because, you know, back 10 years ago, 15 years ago, every wine region in the world that was thinking about exporting went to China. So you could find wines from Hungary and Georgia and Slovakia and everywhere that you couldn't find in other places. So the Chinese consumer was exposed. to so many different wines. And because they didn't have great loyalty to any particular wine region, they're sort of agnostic and they'll try different things. And I find that very exciting.
Speaker #0
For me, it's super exciting. And that's why also since we live here in Hong Kong, I'm super happy to see a variety of things on wine menu that we didn't have before. Australians, Americans, like a lot of different things that we taste. And it's just amazing. Yeah. So you leave Shanghai in 2015? 2007 to 2019. Okay.
Speaker #1
Yeah. And then when COVID hit, I moved back to the US. And so now I'm just living in the San Francisco area. And I just travel back and forth every month or more frequently.
Speaker #0
And so you said you sold this company and then started working. for the California? Yeah.
Speaker #1
So I was approached by the California Wine Institute in early 2015, and they asked if I would be interested in representing them in Asia. And initially, it wasn't something I'd ever done before, and I actually wasn't particularly interested, but then I decided, well, why not? I'll give it a try. And I love it. I've been really enjoying it. I like the industry a lot. I like the people in the industry. Like many wine drinkers, there's so much variety. There's so many different things to try. So it fits in very well with my skill set and also my interests. So I'm happy.
Speaker #0
So the Californian Wine Institute, the goal is basically to gather all the producers from California, I guess? Yeah.
Speaker #1
So the best way to think about it is the Californian Wine Institute has been around for a very long time, since 1934. It was started after Prohibition ended in the United States. And it really has two parts to it. So in the domestic Wine Institute program, there are about a thousand wineries, and they're very interested in the U.S. legal and public policy situation and make it more favorable to the industry and also trade policy issues. So that's one part of it, the domestic part. The international part is completely separate. And it's a... It's a pure marketing organization. And so what we do is we try to promote California wines around the world. I have counterparts in North Asia, in Japan and Korea, in Canada, Mexico, the UK, and Europe.
Speaker #0
Okay. And so can you tell us more about the California wine regions? So I told you in the introductions that I know a little bit of California geography, but not that much.
Speaker #1
So how much time do you have?
Speaker #0
Honestly, it's unlimited. You know, for me, it's the third day of an expo. All right.
Speaker #1
Well, people can't see it, but on this map over here, you will see there are 154 AVAs. An AVA is like an agricultural, American viticultural area. So each one of those different points on the map represents a distinct and unique wine-growing region in California. But let's talk about the major ones. The most famous, of course, is Napa. Napa. Everybody has heard of Napa. But interestingly, it's only 4% of California wine comes from Napa. It's not a very big place. It's 30 miles long, four miles wide, has about 600 wineries in it. But they are very famous. They make world-class Cabernet Sauvignon. Just to the west of Napa, you have Sonoma County. And Sonoma is perhaps a little more diverse. It's much larger. You have the West Sonoma Coast, which is right by the ocean. You have Alexander Valley. You have Dry Creek Valley. You have Carneros and Russian River Valley. So there's a lot there. But I'd probably say for fine wine, Napa and Sonoma are the best known. But then as you start going down the coast, just south of San Francisco, you have the Santa Cruz Mountains. Santa Cruz Mountains, it's not a very large area, but some of the finest wines come from there. So, for example, Ridge, which as a winery you may have heard of, that's Santa Cruz Mountains. Then as you continue going south, you come to Monterey County and Santa Lucia Highlands, which is where they make some absolutely spectacular Pinot Noirs. And then you keep going south and you come to Paso Robles. Pastor Robles is a very... It's becoming a very famous part of California, producing a lot of very, very good wines at more attractive pricing, price points. They also are making some beautiful Rhone variety wines. So I think it may end up being one of the best parts of California for wines that are Rhone style wines. And then you keep going south and you come to Santa Barbara County and you have Santa Maria Valley and Santa Inez Valley. And this is a very interesting place because if you look on the map, it's the one place where there's a little jog in the geography. So it goes down and then it goes east. That's the only place in North and South America where you have a mountain range that's going west to east instead of north to south. The reason that's important is that the fog comes blowing directly in. It doesn't have the protection that the... mountain range has. And so you get some really beautiful wines, especially a region called Santa Rita Hills, some fabulous Pinot Noirs. And so that whole area is known for Chardonnay and Pinot Noir. So the thing about California, if I have to leave one thing with the people who are listening to this, is there's a lot of diversity. There's a lot of diversity in the regions. There's a lot of diversity in the grape varieties. And the weather is also varied. But the most important, perhaps, aspect is the fact that California is right next to the Pacific Ocean. Pacific Ocean is a very, very— cold body of water. So the inner part of California gets very warm during the day. By the ocean, it's very cold during the day. And so that brings the fog in every night. So what happens is the grapes have a much longer growing season. They ripen more slowly. They get to a physiological ripeness with a more sort of complex structure. And so many different things grow very, very well. Anyway, I could go on about this for 20 minutes.
Speaker #0
No, no, but what I remember from my one course is that it's a very warm place. And the more you go inside the land, the warmer it is. And I also remember what you said a bit about the ocean. They were saying also that you have inner lakes that brings a bit of freshness. And you have actually a lot of mountains. I think that We don't have this image when you talk about California. I don't have this image. But actually, you have a lot of mountains and so different altitudes for going on.
Speaker #1
And a simple way of thinking about that is Napa Valley. Because in Napa Valley, you have two mountain ranges on either side of the valley. You have the Mayakamas Range on the west and the Vaca Range on the east. And there are a lot of different parts of Napa. But for example, Oakville, where Mondavi is from or Opus One is from, is very different than wines that are from Howell Mountain, which is on the eastern mountain range at much higher elevation. So even within Napa, which is a small area, you get different expressions, even of Cabernet Sauvignon, depending on the altitude where it's grown, how much exposure it has. Because Napa, as you go north, it gets hotter and hotter. The southern part of Napa is getting influence from the San Francisco Bay, so it's a little bit cooler. So, yes, this happens everywhere in California. Another good example is West Sonoma Coast, which is very, very close to the ocean. So people thought when they were first planning some of the wineries, like Hirsch is an important winery in that area. I think their vineyard is maybe less than two miles from the ocean. People said you're never going to get grapes to ripen there. It's just too cold. But they do. And you have beautiful acidity and very interesting things. So it sort of depends on what you want to do. There's some place in California where those wine grapes will grow well.
Speaker #0
Let's talk. So we talked about the geography of California. There are plenty to say more about this, but I guess we'll do other episodes, other formats to discover this. I'll come back and talk to you about that. I'll definitely come to California. Oh, you're welcome. We'd love to have you. To show it. Let's talk a bit about the history of Californian wine as well. So you said that Californian Wine Institute dates from 1932? 1934. 1934, sorry. But so I guess there were grapes before that in California?
Speaker #1
Yeah, so basically the history goes all the way back to the Spanish missionaries that came to California in the very beginning. So if you think about a lot of the cities in California, like San Francisco, Santa Clara, San Jose, these are all mission. And these Spanish missionaries. came in and they started going north and they built missions along the way. This was in the 1700s. And as they went, they brought what are called mission grapes. And those were the first wines that were made in California. They were made originally for sacramental, for religious purposes. But then people started drinking wine. And so California actually started producing a lot of wine. And there were a couple of important people who came and brought. cuttings from Europe and elsewhere. And so the industry started to flourish. And by the late 1800s, it was doing actually fairly well. And then a few things happened. World War I happened, and that had a very negative impact. And then Prohibition happened, which was a period of time that lasted almost 15 years where it was illegal in the United States to produce or sell. any alcohol commercially. So that obviously had a huge negative impact on the wine industry. And then shortly thereafter, you had World War II, which also had a negative impact. So you had this extended period of time when it was very difficult for the California wine industry. And then in 1966, Robert Mondavi started his winery in Oakville in Napa. And Robert Mondavi was a very important person, not only because he was bringing very sophisticated techniques to California winemaking, but he was really an ambassador for California wine. So he would travel a lot. He would take his wine and show them in Europe and elsewhere, but he would also take his neighbor's wines. You know, his philosophy was, if Napa does well, I'll do well. So that happened in 1966. And then in 1976, we had the Judgment of Paris.
Speaker #0
I told you we were going to talk about this even though I'm French.
Speaker #1
And I can talk to you a lot about the Judgment of Paris. But for now, just in terms of history, the Judgment of Paris, the most important thing about the Judgment of Paris is that it accelerated the speed with which the world came to know. that California was making very high quality wines. I think that the industry would have gotten to where it is today without the judgment of Paris, but it just moved everything much, much faster. Because in 1976, nobody knew about California wines. And in fact, in the mid 70s or early 70s, if you went to San Francisco or New York to a fine restaurant, all the wines on the wine list were French. Or maybe there's an Italian here or there. But there are almost no California wines on the list. And at that time in Napa, as an example, you had about 50 wineries. Today there are over 600. So what the Judgment of Paris did is because it was written up in a mainstream periodical in Time magazine, and it was buried on page 56 of the June 7, 1976 issue, but it got picked up on the wires. on the AP and UPI. And so other people started publishing versions of it. And so, you know, Chicago Tribune, LA Times, New York Times, they all started publishing articles about the judgment. So kind of overnight, everybody knew about it. And then the consumers who liked wine would say, hey, I want to get that wine. Where can I get Chateau Montelena? Where can I get Stag's Leap Wine Cellar? So it created a certain excitement and interest in wine. But I think all it did was reveal that California can make world-class wines. That's all it really did. It was not intended to be competitive. Stephen Spurrier, at the last minute, decided to make it blind. At the last minute, he decided to throw in some benchmark French wines. He had some great wines. He had Mouton Rothschild. He had Bâtard Montrachet, Pouilly Montrachet. I mean, he had some very, very good French wines and the judges were royalty in France. You know, they were wine royalty. And so because of all these factors, it became newsworthy. You know, if any one of those factors had not been present, I don't think it would have ever been an important event. So it's one of those things. It's just, you know, the word in English is serendipity. There's probably a similar word in French.
Speaker #0
But there is not actually. There's no such word as serendipity in French.
Speaker #1
So serendipity is something that just happened. You know, if one element, if any of the one elements had not been present, it wouldn't have happened. So it just happened. It was good for the industry. And, you know, after that, you got a lot of actually French investment in California. I mean, Opus One, I don't think it's coincidence that Opus One was opened in 1979, three years after the judgment of Paris. And, you know, so there's been a lot of investment in California by French, a lot of the champagne houses, you know, Rotor, Chandon. I mean, so many different champagne houses have invested in California in starting really in the early 80s. So so it did a lot. It got it got California internationally. people became more focused, but also in... the United States, people got more interested. So anyway, that's what the judgment was about.
Speaker #0
Yeah, so judgment of Paris, just for people listening, is that basically people in Paris, where was it? The Intercontinental Hotel in Paris. Okay, so it's like a hotel very close to the Opera, and they decided to blind test American wines and French wines. And at the end of it, they realized that actually they ranked American wines better than French wines. That's right.
Speaker #1
So basically what happened is... Stephen Spurrier had a partner, an American woman named Patricia Gallagher, and she, as an American, she was very, she would come to the U.S. every year. to visit. And one year she came and she went to Los Angeles to visit her sister who was living there. And they drove up the coast. And then she spent 10 days or so in Napa and Sonoma. And she came back to Paris and she told Steven Spurrier, you know, these wines are really good. We should do a tasting, excuse me, a tasting in sort of, because it's also the 200 year anniversary of the United States. in 1976. So Stephen then came back to California. He went to all the wineries. He selected the wineries. And then he had friends and others that hand-carried all the wines back to Paris. So originally, it was not intended to be a competition. It was just intended to be a friendly tasting.
Speaker #0
Moment of sharing. Yeah.
Speaker #1
And it was only sort of at the last minute that he decided to... to make it more interesting, as he put it. So it's just one of those things that happens. But you're right. I mean, at the end of the, they had to score all the wines. And at the end of it, the judges, the composite scores, the white wine that got the highest score was a Chardonnay from Chateau Montelena, which I think we're going to try.
Speaker #0
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker #1
And then the red wine was from Stag's Leap Wine Cellars, which is in Napa. So they just got the highest scores. And then they've done the ret... the retesting, you know, 20 years later, 30 years later, 40 years later.
Speaker #0
And also California ends up doing pretty well. So you talked about these wines. You prepared four wines for us to taste and to discover a bit the story behind them. Yes, let's do it. I'll let you read this. So there are four Chardonnays, which is good.
Speaker #1
So let's do it this way. I think let's go from left to right. So let's start out with the Chateau Montalena, because this is the wine, this is the 2023 vintage, but it's the same wine that won in the Judgment of Paris, the 1973 vintage. So 50 years ago, a vintage 50 years old.
Speaker #0
Thank you.
Speaker #1
You're welcome.
Speaker #0
So where is the Chateau Montalena?
Speaker #1
Chateau Montalena is all the way in the northern part of Napa.
Speaker #0
Okay.
Speaker #1
It's almost all the way to the most northern. portion of Napa. Now, I don't know for a fact if all of this fruit is, it says Napa Valley on it, so it could be, I'm sure it's coming from Carneros, which is in the southern, even though the winery's in the north, I'm quite sure that the grapes are coming from the southern part of Napa because that's where it's coolest. Cheers, by the way. But in the original. Chardonnay that won. It actually was mostly Sonoma County fruit. Most of the Sonoma fruit was from Alexander Valley, and then a portion of it was from Russian River Valley. And then some was from Napa, from the southern part. So Carneros is a very unusual part of California because it's one of the only regions that has half of it is in Napa. And half of it is in Sonoma. Okay. But they're both called Carneros. So, but that's where most of the Chardonnay that comes from Napa is grown, in the south. Because it's very close to the San Francisco Bay. So, it gets the cool air coming in from the San Francisco Bay.
Speaker #0
It's a very interesting Chardonnay. Like, you have all the profiles from the Chardonnay, but still a very good acidity, which is kind of refreshing for a 10 a.m. tasting.
Speaker #1
It is nice.
Speaker #0
And I don't know if… that's the ocean but you have like kind of a stunning touch uh idea you know top of the tongue a little bit of it great acid i really like the acid on this wine yeah a very balanced wine not too oaky but it's got good integration and yeah it's a nice wine you like it no i absolutely love it okay good it's a so it's part of the history of um of america it's a very historical winery i mean you The place looks beautiful as well.
Speaker #1
It is beautiful. And it kind of looks like a chateau, doesn't it? Actually, you should go there sometime when you come to California because it's a beautiful winery.
Speaker #0
100%.
Speaker #1
Yeah. Okay. So the next one we have is Rombauer. So Rombauer, again, it says Carneros on the label. So it's very explicit that it's Carneros. And it does not say Napa. Or Sonoma. It's just saying Carnero. So technically, some of the grapes could come from the Napa side and some could come from the Sonoma side. But it's really the. One of the most important, oh, here we go. One of the most important wine Chardonnay growing regions of Northern California. I will say this about this. This is very different in style. Very different profile, yeah. Very different style. So I don't know if people want to see that. We'll show all the wines at the end. So this is one of the most popular Chardonnays in the United States.
Speaker #0
Okay.
Speaker #1
And the people who like Rombauer Chardonnay love Rombauer Chardonnay. You know, generally speaking, wine drinkers like variety. They don't like to drink the same thing all the time. But Rombauer fans drink it all the time. They absolutely love it. So, very different.
Speaker #0
Very different profile, yeah.
Speaker #1
It's bigger. It's more opulent. It's perhaps a little oakier. And it's... It's just a bigger wine.
Speaker #0
And you can feel as well a bit of fresh herbs, like a bit of menthol, lavender. Yeah,
Speaker #1
it definitely has this more savory tones than the other one.
Speaker #0
And so basically the two are made at the same place,
Speaker #1
almost. Well, they're not made at the same place, but the fruit is coming from similar areas.
Speaker #0
It's very interesting expressions for these two. Yeah.
Speaker #1
So, between... So I won't ask you what you like the best. We'll wait until the end.
Speaker #0
Wait until the end.
Speaker #1
The next wine is actually very, very interesting because this is a very, very famous winery called the Hyde Vineyard. So Aubert de Villene, their family owns this.
Speaker #0
Okay. The de Villene family from Burgundy? Yeah, Burgundy. Oh, okay.
Speaker #1
And it's… It's a very famous vineyard in Carneros.
Speaker #0
So the De Villene family in France is known for obviously La Romanée Conti, but also for other smaller estates that they have in the family, focusing a lot on acid, actually, and on the place of water. So I'm curious to see the results in California.
Speaker #1
I like the nose on this wine. It has a very nice... nose. I would, I feel like this wine is kind of in between those other two wines, right? This is more acidic, a little leaner.
Speaker #0
This is more opulent. And this is in between. And this is in between, don't you think?
Speaker #1
Yeah, I think so too.
Speaker #0
But very nice,
Speaker #1
a delightful wine.
Speaker #0
Delightful, very balanced as well. Like the balance between acidity, roundness.
Speaker #1
Right.
Speaker #0
Really, really interesting. Texture is really, really soft as well. Very nice wine. So then the last wine we have, interestingly,
Speaker #1
is also Carneros. So these are all wines that are coming from either Napa or Sonoma. And this one also does not stipulate. I mean, the winery is in Oakville, which is Napa, but it doesn't stipulate on the label whether it's Napa or Sonoma. It just says Carneros. So it could be actually either. And probably they have fruit from both Napa and Sonoma.
Speaker #0
So it's a focused tasting on Carneros today. We'll see each other again, I think, tomorrow for lunch. Excellent. We'll try more wines. We'll try more wines and other things. And this is the Prisoner Wine Company.
Speaker #1
Prisoner is a brand that became very, very popular. Their red wine, which is a Zinfandel-based blend. That became very popular, and then they started making the Chardonnay. And I haven't tasted this recently, but this is going to be, I think, more along the lines of the Rombauer, the second one, I think. Let's taste it. And it definitely is. It's bigger, rounder. It's a more opulent wine. It even has a bit more oak, don't you think?
Speaker #0
A bit more oak than Rombauer. Yeah, 100%.
Speaker #1
So anyway, it's an interesting selection of wines. I think they're all pretty good. But, you know, next time we do a Chardonnay tasting, I'd love to introduce you to some other other regions, because whether it's West Sonoma Coast or Russian River or Monterey County.
Speaker #0
or Santa Rita Hills, Santa Barbara. They're all different styles. In fact, this is one of the things that's so fun about California, especially with Chardonnay and Pinot Noir, is that there are just a lot of different regions that produce very high-quality Chardonnay and Pinot Noir, but they're different. Each region is a little bit different, so it's kind of fun.
Speaker #1
And do you have, like, specifications to follow? in In France, what I'm used to is like appellations having a very specific blend that you must do and that type of thing. Is it the same with aviary? No,
Speaker #0
it's completely different. In fact, this is one of the most important. I'm glad you brought it up because one of the most important differences in California compared to many other regions in the world, whether it's Italian or French or other parts of Europe where they have well-defined rules. About what you can do and what you can't do and even what grapes you can put into it and what you can't put into it. California has none of that.
Speaker #1
Okay.
Speaker #0
So the only thing it has to say accurately is the variety, the vintage, and where it's from. That's it. You can put, so I'll give you a great example. In 50 years ago, there was almost no Chardonnay in Napa. The most dominant. white wine variety was chine and blanc okay and then that changed and but you can you know you can make anything you want in california and from anywhere you want so that's a good thing and maybe a bad thing sometimes because you can um the winemaker has the the flexibility i mean he could put viognier and cabernet sauvignon if you want it you know he can do whatever he wants so so that's that makes it more interesting, but I think most people will do things that are sort of within, you know, within range. Yeah. I mean, so Savion Blanc, you know, may have some semi on it, may not have some semi on it, but you know, they've kind of follow the rules, but there are no rules. I mean, they follow sort of the conventions, I should say, not, not rules.
Speaker #1
Okay. So if you want to have the AVA Sonoma, as long as you're based in Sonoma,
Speaker #0
as long as it comes from Sonoma. So, so. So let's take Napa. Napa is easier. But Sonoma is exactly the same. So Napa, if you say it's Napa Valley, it has to come from Napa Valley. It can come from anywhere in Napa.
Speaker #1
And can be any grape.
Speaker #0
It can be any grape, yeah. It can be any grape, but it has to come from Napa Valley. If you say it's Oakville or Rutherford, it needs to come from that specific part of Napa.
Speaker #1
And then you don't have anything in like... aging process, winemaking, you can do everything you want? You can do whatever you want. Oh, wow.
Speaker #0
But you can't, you can't, you have to, if you say it's 2019, it has to be 2019. If you say, well, no, there is some flexibility. So if you say it's Cabernet Sauvignon, as an example, it has to be 75% Cabernet Sauvignon, but it could be, there could be some Merlot, there could be some Cabernet Franc in there, there could be some Petit Verdot or whatever. In the blend, and you don't have to say that on the label. As long as it's at least 75% Cabernet Sauvignon. There's less, there's not, but where it comes from is super strict, you know. And so if you think about it, you can say it's Napa, Napa Valley, say Howell Mountain or Oakville, or you can actually get vineyard specific. So some of the Mondavi wines and other wines or this wine, Hyde. They're specifically saying it's from the Hyde Vineyard. But there's a very famous vineyard in Napa next to Mondavi called Tokolon. Tokolon Vineyard. So they'll put Tokolon on the label. And that means the fruit has to come from that vineyard. So the more specific you're putting your labeling, the more accurate it has to be. I mean, yeah.
Speaker #1
Because it's interesting because it's... It's close to what we're used to in Europe, but it's actually more open in the way you can do it. You know, like, you know what I mean? In Europe, if you want to have this specific appellation, this specific thing, you need to narrow down your geography as well. But it comes with a lot of constraints on winemaking and on what you can or cannot do.
Speaker #0
And what grape varieties you can use. If you're shut enough to pop, you can only use those specific wine grapes. And so that's different than in California. And like in Chianti in Italy, you can't irrigate, you know. Well, in California, you can irrigate or you cannot irrigate. It's really whatever you choose to do. So it's just a different kind of. attitude about the wine. You know, in California, our branding, when we talk about our branding, it's about innovation and boldness and inclusiveness and sustainability. Those are sort of the four brand pillars that we think about. And they do represent very much the California wine industry. I think that part of California is about taking chances and trying things. I don't think it's coincidence. that Hollywood is in California, that the tech industry, the Apple computers and all these are in California, actually just 50 miles away from Napa. And that same philosophy transfers into the wines and the way people are willing to try different things and experiment.
Speaker #1
100%. And I've seen a lot of winemakers in the world. And, you know, sometimes when you do some winemaking studies, you have like internship abroad. Right. And so... A lot of them actually went to the U.S. for internships, so either California or a bit of Oregon as well.
Speaker #0
Right.
Speaker #1
And when I asked them, what did you learn there and that you want to take back in your country? They're like the ability to try things, to test, to innovate, and just to make wines that people actually want. Right. I think it's the type of spirit that you guys have.
Speaker #0
Oh, it's great. And, you know, for example, earlier we talked about Paso Robles. I've had a Nebbiolo from Paso Robles. And I've had Tempranillos, and I've had a lot of the Rhone varieties. In fact, there's one winery there called Tablas Creek. They try to replicate Chateau Neuf-du-Pape as closely as possible. And they do a pretty good job. So, I mean, there's a lot of different ways that you can go about it. So, anyway.
Speaker #1
How is the market today for Californian wine? So, we are at Vina Expo. Last day of it. Are you happy of this? How is the reception for Oregon? Yeah, you know,
Speaker #0
I'm happy when our wineries are happy. And I think generally speaking, the people have been pleased. I think we have a beautiful pavilion. I think it's attracted a lot of people. There are some very good wineries here. We have 30 wineries. And Oregon has another nine. So there are 40 wineries in our pavilion. And it's a very good cross-section. There's some. small wineries that are making very high quality sort of boutique-ish wines. And then there's some very large producers that have, you know, a wide variety of brands. And so it's a good mix. I think that the show, I've been coming to VinExpo, well, as long in the last 20 years, I've been coming. And, you know, last year they had it in Singapore, two years ago they had it Hong Kong. And I think that this show is the best. that it's been since COVID. You know, it just seems to be improving. I also think it's fantastic that it's in Hong Kong.
Speaker #1
Hong Kong is back.
Speaker #0
I think Hong Kong is the best city for a big trade show like this. So I'm very happy that we're here.
Speaker #1
I couldn't agree more. For me, Hong Kong is the best city. period.
Speaker #0
I can't make quite an extreme statement like that, but I love Hong Kong also.
Speaker #1
It's a very good place. And for wine, actually, it's an amazing...
Speaker #0
Oh, it's a great place for wine.
Speaker #1
Amazing wine bars, a lot of restaurants. I guess for you, it's also an important market, even though it's a small island. No,
Speaker #0
it is important. It is important. And it also is a gateway for a lot of other areas. So it's very important.
Speaker #1
We hear a lot of people talking about like Thailand, Cambodia, as... next countries? And is it something that you see as well for California?
Speaker #0
I think Thailand is definitely on the rise. I think Vietnam could also be on the rise. And some of these countries have some really good things going for it. I'll give you an example of Vietnam because I'm very familiar with it. In Vietnam, you have 70% of the population is under 40 years old.
Speaker #1
Okay.
Speaker #0
The GDP growth is 6.5% a year. Yep. positive birth rates. You have increasing income, disposable income, very, very aspirational consumers. So I think over the long term, Vietnam is going to do very, very well. Now, the problem is it's hard to get wine in. So there are some issues that have nothing to do with the consumer. And so you have to sort of weigh those factors as well. Thailand reduced their taxes last year. wine. And I think it's also has a lot of opportunity. You know, Malaysia has some opportunity also, although it's a Muslim country to a large extent, same thing with Indonesia. But there's, but I think Southeast Asia is one part of the world that you will see growth. over the next five to 10 years.
Speaker #1
Yeah, I hear a lot of people talking about Indonesia as well. So I'm pretty sure that there's going to be something nice. Christopher, thank you very much for this discussion and for making me discover these four Chardonnay. I hope you like them. Yeah, honestly, I really like them. Very different profiles between them. Very different, yeah. So very different moments in which I could appreciate them, you know, some things more rookie, something more on the acid. So it's... Different moments of consumption, but definitely wines that I could drink by myself with friends, of course, and have pleasure doing this. So thank you very much for making me discover these wines. Thank you. I have three last questions. So the first one is, do you have a book recommendation for me? Maybe something on American wines, if you have, or in general.
Speaker #0
Yeah, there are a couple of books. So Elaine Chacon-Brown, who is a California wine expert, just published a book. this past year on California wines. I can send you the link to that, but that's a very good book. Also, Karen McNeil, who wrote The Wine Bible, has a very good section on California. So that's another book that I would say might be worth taking a look at.
Speaker #1
Great. For you guys, I'll put the link in the description if you want to discover Californian wines within writing. It's also a good way to deepen this knowledge. Do you have a recent tasting that you loved?
Speaker #0
You know, we're starting to do these Judgment of Paris events. And our first one will be tomorrow, actually, here in Hong Kong. And I'm very excited about it because we have all of the original Judgment of Paris wines. Not the old vintages, but current vintages. And then we also have a couple of other wines that are very important to have, like Robert Mondavi we have. And the reason we have Mondavi is that both Mike Gergich, who made the Montelena that won, and Warren Winiarski, who made the red wine that won, They both had worked at Robert Mondavi Wine before they went off on their own. So we have those wines. And then we have a list of wines that I'm calling modern California or wines that are not what people would expect. So we have like an Albarino from Napa.
Speaker #1
Okay.
Speaker #0
And we have some other wines like that that are very kind of unexpected but represent the current trend in California wines. So... I'm looking forward to that. It hasn't happened yet, but I'm quite sure it's going to be a success.
Speaker #1
I'll be there tomorrow as well. Excellent. Well, you can judge. Super happy to be with you tomorrow as well. And finally, who is the next person I should interview?
Speaker #0
Ah, the next person you should interview. I don't know. I think from California, I think, you know what you need to do? You need to come to California. And if you come to California, I will set you up with some fantastic interviews with winemakers, but also with some people like Elaine Brown. You would love talking to her because she's encyclopedic when it comes to California wines. And also Karen McNeil. Karen McNeil would be very good for you. They both live in Northern California. Karen is in Napa. Elaine lives in Sonoma. But they both have just endless knowledge. There's another woman named Kelly White. who's also encyclopedic on wine.
Speaker #1
Great. We'll make sure to make this happen. Good. 100% sorry. Marine was telling me that we have just a few minutes left together. No worries. No worries. But yeah, we'll make sure to come to California.
Speaker #0
I would love for you to come to California. So please let me know.
Speaker #1
100%.
Speaker #0
Give me a little bit of notice, and we'll make sure to set up an exceptional trip for you.
Speaker #1
We'll make this happen. Thank you very much. Thank you very much for doing this interview and for making me discover these wines. Good celebration of the California Wine Month. Thank you. In Hong Kong, we have French May, during which we have expositions and stuff about dance, and everything. But we also have the California Wine Month. It's coming up. It should be good. Thank you. For this, we'll put all the information in the description in case you want to attend some events, join things. Thanks again, and see you soon. Thank you. Nice, thank you very much. You have to get me a hat like that.

About Wine Makers Show: the wine podcast

Join us on Wine Makers Show, the podcast that uncorks the world of wine! Hosted by Antoine, a passionate entrepreneur and wine enthusiast, this show dives deep into the stories, expertise, and journeys of the people who make wine extraordinary: winemakers, sommeliers, vintners, and industry trailblazers.

What to Expect

In-Depth Interviews: Hear from top figures in the wine world, from renowned vintners to unsung heroes, as they share their experiences, challenges, and secrets to success.
Club Episodes: Explore specific wine topics, from production techniques to tasting tips, in focused, occasional deep dives.
A Journey of Discovery: Whether you're a novice or a connoisseur, we break down the complexities of wine to make it accessible and engaging.

Why Listen?

Wine Makers Show is your gateway to understanding wine like never before. With a focus on storytelling and sharing, Antoine brings you closer to the heart of the wine industry, one conversation at a time. Expect authentic discussions, insider knowledge, and a celebration of the craft and culture of wine.

Connect with Us

Visit winemakersshow.com to get in touch or suggest a guest.
Email Antoine directly at winemakersshow@gmail.com.
Follow the journey on Instagram: @winemakersshow
Join the Academy and learn everything about wine

Tune in to Wine Makers Show and sip on the stories behind every bottle!

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

About Wine Makers Show: the wine podcast

What to Expect

In-Depth Interviews: Hear from top figures in the wine world, from renowned vintners to unsung heroes, as they share their experiences, challenges, and secrets to success.
Club Episodes: Explore specific wine topics, from production techniques to tasting tips, in focused, occasional deep dives.
A Journey of Discovery: Whether you're a novice or a connoisseur, we break down the complexities of wine to make it accessible and engaging.

Why Listen?

Connect with Us

Visit winemakersshow.com to get in touch or suggest a guest.
Email Antoine directly at winemakersshow@gmail.com.
Follow the journey on Instagram: @winemakersshow
Join the Academy and learn everything about wine

Tune in to Wine Makers Show and sip on the stories behind every bottle!

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Description

Then we open the bottles. Four Chardonnays, all from Carneros, all wildly different.

Tune in for a masterclass in why California is far more than big oaky whites, and why Asia's most curious drinkers are falling for it.

▬▬ 🎁 GIFTS 🎁 ▬▬

📚 The Wines of California, by Elaine Chukan Brown

📚 The Wine Bible, by Karen MacNeil

🍇 Learn more about California Wines

🇭🇰 More details about the California Wine Month in Hong Kong & Macau

🍷 The wines we tasted:

Château Montelena Chardonnay 2023
Rombauer Chardonnay 2024
Hyde de Villaine (HdV) De La Guerra Chardonnay 2023
The Prisoner Wine Company The Prisoner Chardonnay 2021

🎁 Get your wine essentials on our shop: a curated selection of wine accessories, posters and much more

🗺️ Get the best Wine Map of the Bordeaux region: as information as decorative

▬▬ ⭐️ ABOUT ⭐️ ▬▬

ALCOHOL ABUSE IS DANGEROUS FOUR YOUR HEALTH. CONSUME IN MODERATION.

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Transcription

Speaker #0
Hi, Christopher.
Speaker #1
Hi.
Speaker #0
Thank you very much for welcoming us in this booth. So we are in Vinaxpo right now.
Speaker #1
Welcome to California away from California.
Speaker #0
It's a good way to say it. I see a lot of ocean on the screen just behind the camera. So it gives me the appetite to come discover. Well, you should.
Speaker #1
You should come and visit us.
Speaker #0
It would be my pleasure. I've never been to California, actually.
Speaker #1
All the more reason.
Speaker #0
So one more reason. And thank you very much for doing this interview this morning. We'll talk about a lot of things. But first, can you introduce yourself?
Speaker #1
Sure. My name is Christopher Barros. I am the director of Greater China and Southeast Asia for the California Wine Institute. I've been involved with wine for much of my career, not all my career, but much of my career. And I lived and worked in mainland China for a long time. But since 2015, I've been having a much larger area. So I am back. to living in California. I lived in Shanghai for a long time, but I live in California again, and I just travel back and forth, which is okay. It's a little tiring, but it allows me to see a lot of greater China and Southeast Asia, which is where I spend most of my time.
Speaker #0
How did you start in the wine industry?
Speaker #1
That's a great question. So I was actually in finance, and I was covering food and beverage companies? It was my industry specialty. And then in 2006, I came to China for the very first time working on a transaction, actually. And I was so amazed by China. I knew that I wanted to get involved somehow in business in China. And I actually started a company importing California wine to mainland China. And I ran that company until 2015 when we sold it. And then the Wine Institute approached me and asked me if I'd be interested in.
Speaker #0
representing them in this part of the world and i've been doing it ever since how was the the reception of uh californian wines in china at that point because like i know that from so from a french point of view right there was a a moment in the history of china when it was just like booming for french wines so it's just like especially red bordeaux varietals exactly red bottle of wine with a chateau on it and then you were starting to be sold out. Yeah.
Speaker #1
So between 2007 and 2010, about the only thing that was really selling in mainland China were red Bordeaux varietals, no Burgundy, no white wines, no American wines. It was just those wines. And, but what's happened in China, which is so interesting to me is the, the consumer has become much, much more sophisticated and much, much more open-minded. And so... So people now are drinking California Zinfandel or German Rieslings or a lot of white wine. So it's actually very exciting and to me, very interesting what's happening there now.
Speaker #0
For me, it's actually a discovery as well. When I went in China, in mainland, I was like talking with wine passionates and I was very impressed by their culture of wine. They have a deep understanding of the places that... A lot of my friends don't even have in France, you know, like they talk about certain regions in France, the type of grape varieties and everything. So I guess it's the same for you.
Speaker #1
Well, you know, it's very interesting because, you know, back 10 years ago, 15 years ago, every wine region in the world that was thinking about exporting went to China. So you could find wines from Hungary and Georgia and Slovakia and everywhere that you couldn't find in other places. So the Chinese consumer was exposed. to so many different wines. And because they didn't have great loyalty to any particular wine region, they're sort of agnostic and they'll try different things. And I find that very exciting.
Speaker #0
For me, it's super exciting. And that's why also since we live here in Hong Kong, I'm super happy to see a variety of things on wine menu that we didn't have before. Australians, Americans, like a lot of different things that we taste. And it's just amazing. Yeah. So you leave Shanghai in 2015? 2007 to 2019. Okay.
Speaker #1
Yeah. And then when COVID hit, I moved back to the US. And so now I'm just living in the San Francisco area. And I just travel back and forth every month or more frequently.
Speaker #0
And so you said you sold this company and then started working. for the California? Yeah.
Speaker #1
So I was approached by the California Wine Institute in early 2015, and they asked if I would be interested in representing them in Asia. And initially, it wasn't something I'd ever done before, and I actually wasn't particularly interested, but then I decided, well, why not? I'll give it a try. And I love it. I've been really enjoying it. I like the industry a lot. I like the people in the industry. Like many wine drinkers, there's so much variety. There's so many different things to try. So it fits in very well with my skill set and also my interests. So I'm happy.
Speaker #0
So the Californian Wine Institute, the goal is basically to gather all the producers from California, I guess? Yeah.
Speaker #1
So the best way to think about it is the Californian Wine Institute has been around for a very long time, since 1934. It was started after Prohibition ended in the United States. And it really has two parts to it. So in the domestic Wine Institute program, there are about a thousand wineries, and they're very interested in the U.S. legal and public policy situation and make it more favorable to the industry and also trade policy issues. So that's one part of it, the domestic part. The international part is completely separate. And it's a... It's a pure marketing organization. And so what we do is we try to promote California wines around the world. I have counterparts in North Asia, in Japan and Korea, in Canada, Mexico, the UK, and Europe.
Speaker #0
Okay. And so can you tell us more about the California wine regions? So I told you in the introductions that I know a little bit of California geography, but not that much.
Speaker #1
So how much time do you have?
Speaker #0
Honestly, it's unlimited. You know, for me, it's the third day of an expo. All right.
Speaker #1
Well, people can't see it, but on this map over here, you will see there are 154 AVAs. An AVA is like an agricultural, American viticultural area. So each one of those different points on the map represents a distinct and unique wine-growing region in California. But let's talk about the major ones. The most famous, of course, is Napa. Napa. Everybody has heard of Napa. But interestingly, it's only 4% of California wine comes from Napa. It's not a very big place. It's 30 miles long, four miles wide, has about 600 wineries in it. But they are very famous. They make world-class Cabernet Sauvignon. Just to the west of Napa, you have Sonoma County. And Sonoma is perhaps a little more diverse. It's much larger. You have the West Sonoma Coast, which is right by the ocean. You have Alexander Valley. You have Dry Creek Valley. You have Carneros and Russian River Valley. So there's a lot there. But I'd probably say for fine wine, Napa and Sonoma are the best known. But then as you start going down the coast, just south of San Francisco, you have the Santa Cruz Mountains. Santa Cruz Mountains, it's not a very large area, but some of the finest wines come from there. So, for example, Ridge, which as a winery you may have heard of, that's Santa Cruz Mountains. Then as you continue going south, you come to Monterey County and Santa Lucia Highlands, which is where they make some absolutely spectacular Pinot Noirs. And then you keep going south and you come to Paso Robles. Pastor Robles is a very... It's becoming a very famous part of California, producing a lot of very, very good wines at more attractive pricing, price points. They also are making some beautiful Rhone variety wines. So I think it may end up being one of the best parts of California for wines that are Rhone style wines. And then you keep going south and you come to Santa Barbara County and you have Santa Maria Valley and Santa Inez Valley. And this is a very interesting place because if you look on the map, it's the one place where there's a little jog in the geography. So it goes down and then it goes east. That's the only place in North and South America where you have a mountain range that's going west to east instead of north to south. The reason that's important is that the fog comes blowing directly in. It doesn't have the protection that the... mountain range has. And so you get some really beautiful wines, especially a region called Santa Rita Hills, some fabulous Pinot Noirs. And so that whole area is known for Chardonnay and Pinot Noir. So the thing about California, if I have to leave one thing with the people who are listening to this, is there's a lot of diversity. There's a lot of diversity in the regions. There's a lot of diversity in the grape varieties. And the weather is also varied. But the most important, perhaps, aspect is the fact that California is right next to the Pacific Ocean. Pacific Ocean is a very, very— cold body of water. So the inner part of California gets very warm during the day. By the ocean, it's very cold during the day. And so that brings the fog in every night. So what happens is the grapes have a much longer growing season. They ripen more slowly. They get to a physiological ripeness with a more sort of complex structure. And so many different things grow very, very well. Anyway, I could go on about this for 20 minutes.
Speaker #0
No, no, but what I remember from my one course is that it's a very warm place. And the more you go inside the land, the warmer it is. And I also remember what you said a bit about the ocean. They were saying also that you have inner lakes that brings a bit of freshness. And you have actually a lot of mountains. I think that We don't have this image when you talk about California. I don't have this image. But actually, you have a lot of mountains and so different altitudes for going on.
Speaker #1
And a simple way of thinking about that is Napa Valley. Because in Napa Valley, you have two mountain ranges on either side of the valley. You have the Mayakamas Range on the west and the Vaca Range on the east. And there are a lot of different parts of Napa. But for example, Oakville, where Mondavi is from or Opus One is from, is very different than wines that are from Howell Mountain, which is on the eastern mountain range at much higher elevation. So even within Napa, which is a small area, you get different expressions, even of Cabernet Sauvignon, depending on the altitude where it's grown, how much exposure it has. Because Napa, as you go north, it gets hotter and hotter. The southern part of Napa is getting influence from the San Francisco Bay, so it's a little bit cooler. So, yes, this happens everywhere in California. Another good example is West Sonoma Coast, which is very, very close to the ocean. So people thought when they were first planning some of the wineries, like Hirsch is an important winery in that area. I think their vineyard is maybe less than two miles from the ocean. People said you're never going to get grapes to ripen there. It's just too cold. But they do. And you have beautiful acidity and very interesting things. So it sort of depends on what you want to do. There's some place in California where those wine grapes will grow well.
Speaker #0
Let's talk. So we talked about the geography of California. There are plenty to say more about this, but I guess we'll do other episodes, other formats to discover this. I'll come back and talk to you about that. I'll definitely come to California. Oh, you're welcome. We'd love to have you. To show it. Let's talk a bit about the history of Californian wine as well. So you said that Californian Wine Institute dates from 1932? 1934. 1934, sorry. But so I guess there were grapes before that in California?
Speaker #1
Yeah, so basically the history goes all the way back to the Spanish missionaries that came to California in the very beginning. So if you think about a lot of the cities in California, like San Francisco, Santa Clara, San Jose, these are all mission. And these Spanish missionaries. came in and they started going north and they built missions along the way. This was in the 1700s. And as they went, they brought what are called mission grapes. And those were the first wines that were made in California. They were made originally for sacramental, for religious purposes. But then people started drinking wine. And so California actually started producing a lot of wine. And there were a couple of important people who came and brought. cuttings from Europe and elsewhere. And so the industry started to flourish. And by the late 1800s, it was doing actually fairly well. And then a few things happened. World War I happened, and that had a very negative impact. And then Prohibition happened, which was a period of time that lasted almost 15 years where it was illegal in the United States to produce or sell. any alcohol commercially. So that obviously had a huge negative impact on the wine industry. And then shortly thereafter, you had World War II, which also had a negative impact. So you had this extended period of time when it was very difficult for the California wine industry. And then in 1966, Robert Mondavi started his winery in Oakville in Napa. And Robert Mondavi was a very important person, not only because he was bringing very sophisticated techniques to California winemaking, but he was really an ambassador for California wine. So he would travel a lot. He would take his wine and show them in Europe and elsewhere, but he would also take his neighbor's wines. You know, his philosophy was, if Napa does well, I'll do well. So that happened in 1966. And then in 1976, we had the Judgment of Paris.
Speaker #0
I told you we were going to talk about this even though I'm French.
Speaker #1
And I can talk to you a lot about the Judgment of Paris. But for now, just in terms of history, the Judgment of Paris, the most important thing about the Judgment of Paris is that it accelerated the speed with which the world came to know. that California was making very high quality wines. I think that the industry would have gotten to where it is today without the judgment of Paris, but it just moved everything much, much faster. Because in 1976, nobody knew about California wines. And in fact, in the mid 70s or early 70s, if you went to San Francisco or New York to a fine restaurant, all the wines on the wine list were French. Or maybe there's an Italian here or there. But there are almost no California wines on the list. And at that time in Napa, as an example, you had about 50 wineries. Today there are over 600. So what the Judgment of Paris did is because it was written up in a mainstream periodical in Time magazine, and it was buried on page 56 of the June 7, 1976 issue, but it got picked up on the wires. on the AP and UPI. And so other people started publishing versions of it. And so, you know, Chicago Tribune, LA Times, New York Times, they all started publishing articles about the judgment. So kind of overnight, everybody knew about it. And then the consumers who liked wine would say, hey, I want to get that wine. Where can I get Chateau Montelena? Where can I get Stag's Leap Wine Cellar? So it created a certain excitement and interest in wine. But I think all it did was reveal that California can make world-class wines. That's all it really did. It was not intended to be competitive. Stephen Spurrier, at the last minute, decided to make it blind. At the last minute, he decided to throw in some benchmark French wines. He had some great wines. He had Mouton Rothschild. He had Bâtard Montrachet, Pouilly Montrachet. I mean, he had some very, very good French wines and the judges were royalty in France. You know, they were wine royalty. And so because of all these factors, it became newsworthy. You know, if any one of those factors had not been present, I don't think it would have ever been an important event. So it's one of those things. It's just, you know, the word in English is serendipity. There's probably a similar word in French.
Speaker #0
But there is not actually. There's no such word as serendipity in French.
Speaker #1
So serendipity is something that just happened. You know, if one element, if any of the one elements had not been present, it wouldn't have happened. So it just happened. It was good for the industry. And, you know, after that, you got a lot of actually French investment in California. I mean, Opus One, I don't think it's coincidence that Opus One was opened in 1979, three years after the judgment of Paris. And, you know, so there's been a lot of investment in California by French, a lot of the champagne houses, you know, Rotor, Chandon. I mean, so many different champagne houses have invested in California in starting really in the early 80s. So so it did a lot. It got it got California internationally. people became more focused, but also in... the United States, people got more interested. So anyway, that's what the judgment was about.
Speaker #0
Yeah, so judgment of Paris, just for people listening, is that basically people in Paris, where was it? The Intercontinental Hotel in Paris. Okay, so it's like a hotel very close to the Opera, and they decided to blind test American wines and French wines. And at the end of it, they realized that actually they ranked American wines better than French wines. That's right.
Speaker #1
So basically what happened is... Stephen Spurrier had a partner, an American woman named Patricia Gallagher, and she, as an American, she was very, she would come to the U.S. every year. to visit. And one year she came and she went to Los Angeles to visit her sister who was living there. And they drove up the coast. And then she spent 10 days or so in Napa and Sonoma. And she came back to Paris and she told Steven Spurrier, you know, these wines are really good. We should do a tasting, excuse me, a tasting in sort of, because it's also the 200 year anniversary of the United States. in 1976. So Stephen then came back to California. He went to all the wineries. He selected the wineries. And then he had friends and others that hand-carried all the wines back to Paris. So originally, it was not intended to be a competition. It was just intended to be a friendly tasting.
Speaker #0
Moment of sharing. Yeah.
Speaker #1
And it was only sort of at the last minute that he decided to... to make it more interesting, as he put it. So it's just one of those things that happens. But you're right. I mean, at the end of the, they had to score all the wines. And at the end of it, the judges, the composite scores, the white wine that got the highest score was a Chardonnay from Chateau Montelena, which I think we're going to try.
Speaker #0
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker #1
And then the red wine was from Stag's Leap Wine Cellars, which is in Napa. So they just got the highest scores. And then they've done the ret... the retesting, you know, 20 years later, 30 years later, 40 years later.
Speaker #0
And also California ends up doing pretty well. So you talked about these wines. You prepared four wines for us to taste and to discover a bit the story behind them. Yes, let's do it. I'll let you read this. So there are four Chardonnays, which is good.
Speaker #1
So let's do it this way. I think let's go from left to right. So let's start out with the Chateau Montalena, because this is the wine, this is the 2023 vintage, but it's the same wine that won in the Judgment of Paris, the 1973 vintage. So 50 years ago, a vintage 50 years old.
Speaker #0
Thank you.
Speaker #1
You're welcome.
Speaker #0
So where is the Chateau Montalena?
Speaker #1
Chateau Montalena is all the way in the northern part of Napa.
Speaker #0
Okay.
Speaker #1
It's almost all the way to the most northern. portion of Napa. Now, I don't know for a fact if all of this fruit is, it says Napa Valley on it, so it could be, I'm sure it's coming from Carneros, which is in the southern, even though the winery's in the north, I'm quite sure that the grapes are coming from the southern part of Napa because that's where it's coolest. Cheers, by the way. But in the original. Chardonnay that won. It actually was mostly Sonoma County fruit. Most of the Sonoma fruit was from Alexander Valley, and then a portion of it was from Russian River Valley. And then some was from Napa, from the southern part. So Carneros is a very unusual part of California because it's one of the only regions that has half of it is in Napa. And half of it is in Sonoma. Okay. But they're both called Carneros. So, but that's where most of the Chardonnay that comes from Napa is grown, in the south. Because it's very close to the San Francisco Bay. So, it gets the cool air coming in from the San Francisco Bay.
Speaker #0
It's a very interesting Chardonnay. Like, you have all the profiles from the Chardonnay, but still a very good acidity, which is kind of refreshing for a 10 a.m. tasting.
Speaker #1
It is nice.
Speaker #0
And I don't know if… that's the ocean but you have like kind of a stunning touch uh idea you know top of the tongue a little bit of it great acid i really like the acid on this wine yeah a very balanced wine not too oaky but it's got good integration and yeah it's a nice wine you like it no i absolutely love it okay good it's a so it's part of the history of um of america it's a very historical winery i mean you The place looks beautiful as well.
Speaker #1
It is beautiful. And it kind of looks like a chateau, doesn't it? Actually, you should go there sometime when you come to California because it's a beautiful winery.
Speaker #0
100%.
Speaker #1
Yeah. Okay. So the next one we have is Rombauer. So Rombauer, again, it says Carneros on the label. So it's very explicit that it's Carneros. And it does not say Napa. Or Sonoma. It's just saying Carnero. So technically, some of the grapes could come from the Napa side and some could come from the Sonoma side. But it's really the. One of the most important, oh, here we go. One of the most important wine Chardonnay growing regions of Northern California. I will say this about this. This is very different in style. Very different profile, yeah. Very different style. So I don't know if people want to see that. We'll show all the wines at the end. So this is one of the most popular Chardonnays in the United States.
Speaker #0
Okay.
Speaker #1
And the people who like Rombauer Chardonnay love Rombauer Chardonnay. You know, generally speaking, wine drinkers like variety. They don't like to drink the same thing all the time. But Rombauer fans drink it all the time. They absolutely love it. So, very different.
Speaker #0
Very different profile, yeah.
Speaker #1
It's bigger. It's more opulent. It's perhaps a little oakier. And it's... It's just a bigger wine.
Speaker #0
And you can feel as well a bit of fresh herbs, like a bit of menthol, lavender. Yeah,
Speaker #1
it definitely has this more savory tones than the other one.
Speaker #0
And so basically the two are made at the same place,
Speaker #1
almost. Well, they're not made at the same place, but the fruit is coming from similar areas.
Speaker #0
It's very interesting expressions for these two. Yeah.
Speaker #1
So, between... So I won't ask you what you like the best. We'll wait until the end.
Speaker #0
Wait until the end.
Speaker #1
The next wine is actually very, very interesting because this is a very, very famous winery called the Hyde Vineyard. So Aubert de Villene, their family owns this.
Speaker #0
Okay. The de Villene family from Burgundy? Yeah, Burgundy. Oh, okay.
Speaker #1
And it's… It's a very famous vineyard in Carneros.
Speaker #0
So the De Villene family in France is known for obviously La Romanée Conti, but also for other smaller estates that they have in the family, focusing a lot on acid, actually, and on the place of water. So I'm curious to see the results in California.
Speaker #1
I like the nose on this wine. It has a very nice... nose. I would, I feel like this wine is kind of in between those other two wines, right? This is more acidic, a little leaner.
Speaker #0
This is more opulent. And this is in between. And this is in between, don't you think?
Speaker #1
Yeah, I think so too.
Speaker #0
But very nice,
Speaker #1
a delightful wine.
Speaker #0
Delightful, very balanced as well. Like the balance between acidity, roundness.
Speaker #1
Right.
Speaker #0
Really, really interesting. Texture is really, really soft as well. Very nice wine. So then the last wine we have, interestingly,
Speaker #1
is also Carneros. So these are all wines that are coming from either Napa or Sonoma. And this one also does not stipulate. I mean, the winery is in Oakville, which is Napa, but it doesn't stipulate on the label whether it's Napa or Sonoma. It just says Carneros. So it could be actually either. And probably they have fruit from both Napa and Sonoma.
Speaker #0
So it's a focused tasting on Carneros today. We'll see each other again, I think, tomorrow for lunch. Excellent. We'll try more wines. We'll try more wines and other things. And this is the Prisoner Wine Company.
Speaker #1
Prisoner is a brand that became very, very popular. Their red wine, which is a Zinfandel-based blend. That became very popular, and then they started making the Chardonnay. And I haven't tasted this recently, but this is going to be, I think, more along the lines of the Rombauer, the second one, I think. Let's taste it. And it definitely is. It's bigger, rounder. It's a more opulent wine. It even has a bit more oak, don't you think?
Speaker #0
A bit more oak than Rombauer. Yeah, 100%.
Speaker #1
So anyway, it's an interesting selection of wines. I think they're all pretty good. But, you know, next time we do a Chardonnay tasting, I'd love to introduce you to some other other regions, because whether it's West Sonoma Coast or Russian River or Monterey County.
Speaker #0
or Santa Rita Hills, Santa Barbara. They're all different styles. In fact, this is one of the things that's so fun about California, especially with Chardonnay and Pinot Noir, is that there are just a lot of different regions that produce very high-quality Chardonnay and Pinot Noir, but they're different. Each region is a little bit different, so it's kind of fun.
Speaker #1
And do you have, like, specifications to follow? in In France, what I'm used to is like appellations having a very specific blend that you must do and that type of thing. Is it the same with aviary? No,
Speaker #0
it's completely different. In fact, this is one of the most important. I'm glad you brought it up because one of the most important differences in California compared to many other regions in the world, whether it's Italian or French or other parts of Europe where they have well-defined rules. About what you can do and what you can't do and even what grapes you can put into it and what you can't put into it. California has none of that.
Speaker #1
Okay.
Speaker #0
So the only thing it has to say accurately is the variety, the vintage, and where it's from. That's it. You can put, so I'll give you a great example. In 50 years ago, there was almost no Chardonnay in Napa. The most dominant. white wine variety was chine and blanc okay and then that changed and but you can you know you can make anything you want in california and from anywhere you want so that's a good thing and maybe a bad thing sometimes because you can um the winemaker has the the flexibility i mean he could put viognier and cabernet sauvignon if you want it you know he can do whatever he wants so so that's that makes it more interesting, but I think most people will do things that are sort of within, you know, within range. Yeah. I mean, so Savion Blanc, you know, may have some semi on it, may not have some semi on it, but you know, they've kind of follow the rules, but there are no rules. I mean, they follow sort of the conventions, I should say, not, not rules.
Speaker #1
Okay. So if you want to have the AVA Sonoma, as long as you're based in Sonoma,
Speaker #0
as long as it comes from Sonoma. So, so. So let's take Napa. Napa is easier. But Sonoma is exactly the same. So Napa, if you say it's Napa Valley, it has to come from Napa Valley. It can come from anywhere in Napa.
Speaker #1
And can be any grape.
Speaker #0
It can be any grape, yeah. It can be any grape, but it has to come from Napa Valley. If you say it's Oakville or Rutherford, it needs to come from that specific part of Napa.
Speaker #1
And then you don't have anything in like... aging process, winemaking, you can do everything you want? You can do whatever you want. Oh, wow.
Speaker #0
But you can't, you can't, you have to, if you say it's 2019, it has to be 2019. If you say, well, no, there is some flexibility. So if you say it's Cabernet Sauvignon, as an example, it has to be 75% Cabernet Sauvignon, but it could be, there could be some Merlot, there could be some Cabernet Franc in there, there could be some Petit Verdot or whatever. In the blend, and you don't have to say that on the label. As long as it's at least 75% Cabernet Sauvignon. There's less, there's not, but where it comes from is super strict, you know. And so if you think about it, you can say it's Napa, Napa Valley, say Howell Mountain or Oakville, or you can actually get vineyard specific. So some of the Mondavi wines and other wines or this wine, Hyde. They're specifically saying it's from the Hyde Vineyard. But there's a very famous vineyard in Napa next to Mondavi called Tokolon. Tokolon Vineyard. So they'll put Tokolon on the label. And that means the fruit has to come from that vineyard. So the more specific you're putting your labeling, the more accurate it has to be. I mean, yeah.
Speaker #1
Because it's interesting because it's... It's close to what we're used to in Europe, but it's actually more open in the way you can do it. You know, like, you know what I mean? In Europe, if you want to have this specific appellation, this specific thing, you need to narrow down your geography as well. But it comes with a lot of constraints on winemaking and on what you can or cannot do.
Speaker #0
And what grape varieties you can use. If you're shut enough to pop, you can only use those specific wine grapes. And so that's different than in California. And like in Chianti in Italy, you can't irrigate, you know. Well, in California, you can irrigate or you cannot irrigate. It's really whatever you choose to do. So it's just a different kind of. attitude about the wine. You know, in California, our branding, when we talk about our branding, it's about innovation and boldness and inclusiveness and sustainability. Those are sort of the four brand pillars that we think about. And they do represent very much the California wine industry. I think that part of California is about taking chances and trying things. I don't think it's coincidence. that Hollywood is in California, that the tech industry, the Apple computers and all these are in California, actually just 50 miles away from Napa. And that same philosophy transfers into the wines and the way people are willing to try different things and experiment.
Speaker #1
100%. And I've seen a lot of winemakers in the world. And, you know, sometimes when you do some winemaking studies, you have like internship abroad. Right. And so... A lot of them actually went to the U.S. for internships, so either California or a bit of Oregon as well.
Speaker #0
Right.
Speaker #1
And when I asked them, what did you learn there and that you want to take back in your country? They're like the ability to try things, to test, to innovate, and just to make wines that people actually want. Right. I think it's the type of spirit that you guys have.
Speaker #0
Oh, it's great. And, you know, for example, earlier we talked about Paso Robles. I've had a Nebbiolo from Paso Robles. And I've had Tempranillos, and I've had a lot of the Rhone varieties. In fact, there's one winery there called Tablas Creek. They try to replicate Chateau Neuf-du-Pape as closely as possible. And they do a pretty good job. So, I mean, there's a lot of different ways that you can go about it. So, anyway.
Speaker #1
How is the market today for Californian wine? So, we are at Vina Expo. Last day of it. Are you happy of this? How is the reception for Oregon? Yeah, you know,
Speaker #0
I'm happy when our wineries are happy. And I think generally speaking, the people have been pleased. I think we have a beautiful pavilion. I think it's attracted a lot of people. There are some very good wineries here. We have 30 wineries. And Oregon has another nine. So there are 40 wineries in our pavilion. And it's a very good cross-section. There's some. small wineries that are making very high quality sort of boutique-ish wines. And then there's some very large producers that have, you know, a wide variety of brands. And so it's a good mix. I think that the show, I've been coming to VinExpo, well, as long in the last 20 years, I've been coming. And, you know, last year they had it in Singapore, two years ago they had it Hong Kong. And I think that this show is the best. that it's been since COVID. You know, it just seems to be improving. I also think it's fantastic that it's in Hong Kong.
Speaker #1
Hong Kong is back.
Speaker #0
I think Hong Kong is the best city for a big trade show like this. So I'm very happy that we're here.
Speaker #1
I couldn't agree more. For me, Hong Kong is the best city. period.
Speaker #0
I can't make quite an extreme statement like that, but I love Hong Kong also.
Speaker #1
It's a very good place. And for wine, actually, it's an amazing...
Speaker #0
Oh, it's a great place for wine.
Speaker #1
Amazing wine bars, a lot of restaurants. I guess for you, it's also an important market, even though it's a small island. No,
Speaker #0
it is important. It is important. And it also is a gateway for a lot of other areas. So it's very important.
Speaker #1
We hear a lot of people talking about like Thailand, Cambodia, as... next countries? And is it something that you see as well for California?
Speaker #0
I think Thailand is definitely on the rise. I think Vietnam could also be on the rise. And some of these countries have some really good things going for it. I'll give you an example of Vietnam because I'm very familiar with it. In Vietnam, you have 70% of the population is under 40 years old.
Speaker #1
Okay.
Speaker #0
The GDP growth is 6.5% a year. Yep. positive birth rates. You have increasing income, disposable income, very, very aspirational consumers. So I think over the long term, Vietnam is going to do very, very well. Now, the problem is it's hard to get wine in. So there are some issues that have nothing to do with the consumer. And so you have to sort of weigh those factors as well. Thailand reduced their taxes last year. wine. And I think it's also has a lot of opportunity. You know, Malaysia has some opportunity also, although it's a Muslim country to a large extent, same thing with Indonesia. But there's, but I think Southeast Asia is one part of the world that you will see growth. over the next five to 10 years.
Speaker #1
Yeah, I hear a lot of people talking about Indonesia as well. So I'm pretty sure that there's going to be something nice. Christopher, thank you very much for this discussion and for making me discover these four Chardonnay. I hope you like them. Yeah, honestly, I really like them. Very different profiles between them. Very different, yeah. So very different moments in which I could appreciate them, you know, some things more rookie, something more on the acid. So it's... Different moments of consumption, but definitely wines that I could drink by myself with friends, of course, and have pleasure doing this. So thank you very much for making me discover these wines. Thank you. I have three last questions. So the first one is, do you have a book recommendation for me? Maybe something on American wines, if you have, or in general.
Speaker #0
Yeah, there are a couple of books. So Elaine Chacon-Brown, who is a California wine expert, just published a book. this past year on California wines. I can send you the link to that, but that's a very good book. Also, Karen McNeil, who wrote The Wine Bible, has a very good section on California. So that's another book that I would say might be worth taking a look at.
Speaker #1
Great. For you guys, I'll put the link in the description if you want to discover Californian wines within writing. It's also a good way to deepen this knowledge. Do you have a recent tasting that you loved?
Speaker #0
You know, we're starting to do these Judgment of Paris events. And our first one will be tomorrow, actually, here in Hong Kong. And I'm very excited about it because we have all of the original Judgment of Paris wines. Not the old vintages, but current vintages. And then we also have a couple of other wines that are very important to have, like Robert Mondavi we have. And the reason we have Mondavi is that both Mike Gergich, who made the Montelena that won, and Warren Winiarski, who made the red wine that won, They both had worked at Robert Mondavi Wine before they went off on their own. So we have those wines. And then we have a list of wines that I'm calling modern California or wines that are not what people would expect. So we have like an Albarino from Napa.
Speaker #1
Okay.
Speaker #0
And we have some other wines like that that are very kind of unexpected but represent the current trend in California wines. So... I'm looking forward to that. It hasn't happened yet, but I'm quite sure it's going to be a success.
Speaker #1
I'll be there tomorrow as well. Excellent. Well, you can judge. Super happy to be with you tomorrow as well. And finally, who is the next person I should interview?
Speaker #0
Ah, the next person you should interview. I don't know. I think from California, I think, you know what you need to do? You need to come to California. And if you come to California, I will set you up with some fantastic interviews with winemakers, but also with some people like Elaine Brown. You would love talking to her because she's encyclopedic when it comes to California wines. And also Karen McNeil. Karen McNeil would be very good for you. They both live in Northern California. Karen is in Napa. Elaine lives in Sonoma. But they both have just endless knowledge. There's another woman named Kelly White. who's also encyclopedic on wine.
Speaker #1
Great. We'll make sure to make this happen. Good. 100% sorry. Marine was telling me that we have just a few minutes left together. No worries. No worries. But yeah, we'll make sure to come to California.
Speaker #0
I would love for you to come to California. So please let me know.
Speaker #1
100%.
Speaker #0
Give me a little bit of notice, and we'll make sure to set up an exceptional trip for you.
Speaker #1
We'll make this happen. Thank you very much. Thank you very much for doing this interview and for making me discover these wines. Good celebration of the California Wine Month. Thank you. In Hong Kong, we have French May, during which we have expositions and stuff about dance, and everything. But we also have the California Wine Month. It's coming up. It should be good. Thank you. For this, we'll put all the information in the description in case you want to attend some events, join things. Thanks again, and see you soon. Thank you. Nice, thank you very much. You have to get me a hat like that.

About Wine Makers Show: the wine podcast

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In-Depth Interviews: Hear from top figures in the wine world, from renowned vintners to unsung heroes, as they share their experiences, challenges, and secrets to success.
Club Episodes: Explore specific wine topics, from production techniques to tasting tips, in focused, occasional deep dives.
A Journey of Discovery: Whether you're a novice or a connoisseur, we break down the complexities of wine to make it accessible and engaging.

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Email Antoine directly at winemakersshow@gmail.com.
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Join the Academy and learn everything about wine

Tune in to Wine Makers Show and sip on the stories behind every bottle!

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About Wine Makers Show: the wine podcast

What to Expect

In-Depth Interviews: Hear from top figures in the wine world, from renowned vintners to unsung heroes, as they share their experiences, challenges, and secrets to success.
Club Episodes: Explore specific wine topics, from production techniques to tasting tips, in focused, occasional deep dives.
A Journey of Discovery: Whether you're a novice or a connoisseur, we break down the complexities of wine to make it accessible and engaging.

Why Listen?

Connect with Us

Visit winemakersshow.com to get in touch or suggest a guest.
Email Antoine directly at winemakersshow@gmail.com.
Follow the journey on Instagram: @winemakersshow
Join the Academy and learn everything about wine

Tune in to Wine Makers Show and sip on the stories behind every bottle!

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

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Description

Then we open the bottles. Four Chardonnays, all from Carneros, all wildly different.

Tune in for a masterclass in why California is far more than big oaky whites, and why Asia's most curious drinkers are falling for it.

▬▬ 🎁 GIFTS 🎁 ▬▬

📚 The Wines of California, by Elaine Chukan Brown

📚 The Wine Bible, by Karen MacNeil

🍇 Learn more about California Wines

🇭🇰 More details about the California Wine Month in Hong Kong & Macau

🍷 The wines we tasted:

Château Montelena Chardonnay 2023
Rombauer Chardonnay 2024
Hyde de Villaine (HdV) De La Guerra Chardonnay 2023
The Prisoner Wine Company The Prisoner Chardonnay 2021

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🗺️ Get the best Wine Map of the Bordeaux region: as information as decorative

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ALCOHOL ABUSE IS DANGEROUS FOUR YOUR HEALTH. CONSUME IN MODERATION.

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Transcription

Speaker #0
Hi, Christopher.
Speaker #1
Hi.
Speaker #0
Thank you very much for welcoming us in this booth. So we are in Vinaxpo right now.
Speaker #1
Welcome to California away from California.
Speaker #0
It's a good way to say it. I see a lot of ocean on the screen just behind the camera. So it gives me the appetite to come discover. Well, you should.
Speaker #1
You should come and visit us.
Speaker #0
It would be my pleasure. I've never been to California, actually.
Speaker #1
All the more reason.
Speaker #0
So one more reason. And thank you very much for doing this interview this morning. We'll talk about a lot of things. But first, can you introduce yourself?
Speaker #1
Sure. My name is Christopher Barros. I am the director of Greater China and Southeast Asia for the California Wine Institute. I've been involved with wine for much of my career, not all my career, but much of my career. And I lived and worked in mainland China for a long time. But since 2015, I've been having a much larger area. So I am back. to living in California. I lived in Shanghai for a long time, but I live in California again, and I just travel back and forth, which is okay. It's a little tiring, but it allows me to see a lot of greater China and Southeast Asia, which is where I spend most of my time.
Speaker #0
How did you start in the wine industry?
Speaker #1
That's a great question. So I was actually in finance, and I was covering food and beverage companies? It was my industry specialty. And then in 2006, I came to China for the very first time working on a transaction, actually. And I was so amazed by China. I knew that I wanted to get involved somehow in business in China. And I actually started a company importing California wine to mainland China. And I ran that company until 2015 when we sold it. And then the Wine Institute approached me and asked me if I'd be interested in.
Speaker #0
representing them in this part of the world and i've been doing it ever since how was the the reception of uh californian wines in china at that point because like i know that from so from a french point of view right there was a a moment in the history of china when it was just like booming for french wines so it's just like especially red bordeaux varietals exactly red bottle of wine with a chateau on it and then you were starting to be sold out. Yeah.
Speaker #1
So between 2007 and 2010, about the only thing that was really selling in mainland China were red Bordeaux varietals, no Burgundy, no white wines, no American wines. It was just those wines. And, but what's happened in China, which is so interesting to me is the, the consumer has become much, much more sophisticated and much, much more open-minded. And so... So people now are drinking California Zinfandel or German Rieslings or a lot of white wine. So it's actually very exciting and to me, very interesting what's happening there now.
Speaker #0
For me, it's actually a discovery as well. When I went in China, in mainland, I was like talking with wine passionates and I was very impressed by their culture of wine. They have a deep understanding of the places that... A lot of my friends don't even have in France, you know, like they talk about certain regions in France, the type of grape varieties and everything. So I guess it's the same for you.
Speaker #1
Well, you know, it's very interesting because, you know, back 10 years ago, 15 years ago, every wine region in the world that was thinking about exporting went to China. So you could find wines from Hungary and Georgia and Slovakia and everywhere that you couldn't find in other places. So the Chinese consumer was exposed. to so many different wines. And because they didn't have great loyalty to any particular wine region, they're sort of agnostic and they'll try different things. And I find that very exciting.
Speaker #0
For me, it's super exciting. And that's why also since we live here in Hong Kong, I'm super happy to see a variety of things on wine menu that we didn't have before. Australians, Americans, like a lot of different things that we taste. And it's just amazing. Yeah. So you leave Shanghai in 2015? 2007 to 2019. Okay.
Speaker #1
Yeah. And then when COVID hit, I moved back to the US. And so now I'm just living in the San Francisco area. And I just travel back and forth every month or more frequently.
Speaker #0
And so you said you sold this company and then started working. for the California? Yeah.
Speaker #1
So I was approached by the California Wine Institute in early 2015, and they asked if I would be interested in representing them in Asia. And initially, it wasn't something I'd ever done before, and I actually wasn't particularly interested, but then I decided, well, why not? I'll give it a try. And I love it. I've been really enjoying it. I like the industry a lot. I like the people in the industry. Like many wine drinkers, there's so much variety. There's so many different things to try. So it fits in very well with my skill set and also my interests. So I'm happy.
Speaker #0
So the Californian Wine Institute, the goal is basically to gather all the producers from California, I guess? Yeah.
Speaker #1
So the best way to think about it is the Californian Wine Institute has been around for a very long time, since 1934. It was started after Prohibition ended in the United States. And it really has two parts to it. So in the domestic Wine Institute program, there are about a thousand wineries, and they're very interested in the U.S. legal and public policy situation and make it more favorable to the industry and also trade policy issues. So that's one part of it, the domestic part. The international part is completely separate. And it's a... It's a pure marketing organization. And so what we do is we try to promote California wines around the world. I have counterparts in North Asia, in Japan and Korea, in Canada, Mexico, the UK, and Europe.
Speaker #0
Okay. And so can you tell us more about the California wine regions? So I told you in the introductions that I know a little bit of California geography, but not that much.
Speaker #1
So how much time do you have?
Speaker #0
Honestly, it's unlimited. You know, for me, it's the third day of an expo. All right.
Speaker #1
Well, people can't see it, but on this map over here, you will see there are 154 AVAs. An AVA is like an agricultural, American viticultural area. So each one of those different points on the map represents a distinct and unique wine-growing region in California. But let's talk about the major ones. The most famous, of course, is Napa. Napa. Everybody has heard of Napa. But interestingly, it's only 4% of California wine comes from Napa. It's not a very big place. It's 30 miles long, four miles wide, has about 600 wineries in it. But they are very famous. They make world-class Cabernet Sauvignon. Just to the west of Napa, you have Sonoma County. And Sonoma is perhaps a little more diverse. It's much larger. You have the West Sonoma Coast, which is right by the ocean. You have Alexander Valley. You have Dry Creek Valley. You have Carneros and Russian River Valley. So there's a lot there. But I'd probably say for fine wine, Napa and Sonoma are the best known. But then as you start going down the coast, just south of San Francisco, you have the Santa Cruz Mountains. Santa Cruz Mountains, it's not a very large area, but some of the finest wines come from there. So, for example, Ridge, which as a winery you may have heard of, that's Santa Cruz Mountains. Then as you continue going south, you come to Monterey County and Santa Lucia Highlands, which is where they make some absolutely spectacular Pinot Noirs. And then you keep going south and you come to Paso Robles. Pastor Robles is a very... It's becoming a very famous part of California, producing a lot of very, very good wines at more attractive pricing, price points. They also are making some beautiful Rhone variety wines. So I think it may end up being one of the best parts of California for wines that are Rhone style wines. And then you keep going south and you come to Santa Barbara County and you have Santa Maria Valley and Santa Inez Valley. And this is a very interesting place because if you look on the map, it's the one place where there's a little jog in the geography. So it goes down and then it goes east. That's the only place in North and South America where you have a mountain range that's going west to east instead of north to south. The reason that's important is that the fog comes blowing directly in. It doesn't have the protection that the... mountain range has. And so you get some really beautiful wines, especially a region called Santa Rita Hills, some fabulous Pinot Noirs. And so that whole area is known for Chardonnay and Pinot Noir. So the thing about California, if I have to leave one thing with the people who are listening to this, is there's a lot of diversity. There's a lot of diversity in the regions. There's a lot of diversity in the grape varieties. And the weather is also varied. But the most important, perhaps, aspect is the fact that California is right next to the Pacific Ocean. Pacific Ocean is a very, very— cold body of water. So the inner part of California gets very warm during the day. By the ocean, it's very cold during the day. And so that brings the fog in every night. So what happens is the grapes have a much longer growing season. They ripen more slowly. They get to a physiological ripeness with a more sort of complex structure. And so many different things grow very, very well. Anyway, I could go on about this for 20 minutes.
Speaker #0
No, no, but what I remember from my one course is that it's a very warm place. And the more you go inside the land, the warmer it is. And I also remember what you said a bit about the ocean. They were saying also that you have inner lakes that brings a bit of freshness. And you have actually a lot of mountains. I think that We don't have this image when you talk about California. I don't have this image. But actually, you have a lot of mountains and so different altitudes for going on.
Speaker #1
And a simple way of thinking about that is Napa Valley. Because in Napa Valley, you have two mountain ranges on either side of the valley. You have the Mayakamas Range on the west and the Vaca Range on the east. And there are a lot of different parts of Napa. But for example, Oakville, where Mondavi is from or Opus One is from, is very different than wines that are from Howell Mountain, which is on the eastern mountain range at much higher elevation. So even within Napa, which is a small area, you get different expressions, even of Cabernet Sauvignon, depending on the altitude where it's grown, how much exposure it has. Because Napa, as you go north, it gets hotter and hotter. The southern part of Napa is getting influence from the San Francisco Bay, so it's a little bit cooler. So, yes, this happens everywhere in California. Another good example is West Sonoma Coast, which is very, very close to the ocean. So people thought when they were first planning some of the wineries, like Hirsch is an important winery in that area. I think their vineyard is maybe less than two miles from the ocean. People said you're never going to get grapes to ripen there. It's just too cold. But they do. And you have beautiful acidity and very interesting things. So it sort of depends on what you want to do. There's some place in California where those wine grapes will grow well.
Speaker #0
Let's talk. So we talked about the geography of California. There are plenty to say more about this, but I guess we'll do other episodes, other formats to discover this. I'll come back and talk to you about that. I'll definitely come to California. Oh, you're welcome. We'd love to have you. To show it. Let's talk a bit about the history of Californian wine as well. So you said that Californian Wine Institute dates from 1932? 1934. 1934, sorry. But so I guess there were grapes before that in California?
Speaker #1
Yeah, so basically the history goes all the way back to the Spanish missionaries that came to California in the very beginning. So if you think about a lot of the cities in California, like San Francisco, Santa Clara, San Jose, these are all mission. And these Spanish missionaries. came in and they started going north and they built missions along the way. This was in the 1700s. And as they went, they brought what are called mission grapes. And those were the first wines that were made in California. They were made originally for sacramental, for religious purposes. But then people started drinking wine. And so California actually started producing a lot of wine. And there were a couple of important people who came and brought. cuttings from Europe and elsewhere. And so the industry started to flourish. And by the late 1800s, it was doing actually fairly well. And then a few things happened. World War I happened, and that had a very negative impact. And then Prohibition happened, which was a period of time that lasted almost 15 years where it was illegal in the United States to produce or sell. any alcohol commercially. So that obviously had a huge negative impact on the wine industry. And then shortly thereafter, you had World War II, which also had a negative impact. So you had this extended period of time when it was very difficult for the California wine industry. And then in 1966, Robert Mondavi started his winery in Oakville in Napa. And Robert Mondavi was a very important person, not only because he was bringing very sophisticated techniques to California winemaking, but he was really an ambassador for California wine. So he would travel a lot. He would take his wine and show them in Europe and elsewhere, but he would also take his neighbor's wines. You know, his philosophy was, if Napa does well, I'll do well. So that happened in 1966. And then in 1976, we had the Judgment of Paris.
Speaker #0
I told you we were going to talk about this even though I'm French.
Speaker #1
And I can talk to you a lot about the Judgment of Paris. But for now, just in terms of history, the Judgment of Paris, the most important thing about the Judgment of Paris is that it accelerated the speed with which the world came to know. that California was making very high quality wines. I think that the industry would have gotten to where it is today without the judgment of Paris, but it just moved everything much, much faster. Because in 1976, nobody knew about California wines. And in fact, in the mid 70s or early 70s, if you went to San Francisco or New York to a fine restaurant, all the wines on the wine list were French. Or maybe there's an Italian here or there. But there are almost no California wines on the list. And at that time in Napa, as an example, you had about 50 wineries. Today there are over 600. So what the Judgment of Paris did is because it was written up in a mainstream periodical in Time magazine, and it was buried on page 56 of the June 7, 1976 issue, but it got picked up on the wires. on the AP and UPI. And so other people started publishing versions of it. And so, you know, Chicago Tribune, LA Times, New York Times, they all started publishing articles about the judgment. So kind of overnight, everybody knew about it. And then the consumers who liked wine would say, hey, I want to get that wine. Where can I get Chateau Montelena? Where can I get Stag's Leap Wine Cellar? So it created a certain excitement and interest in wine. But I think all it did was reveal that California can make world-class wines. That's all it really did. It was not intended to be competitive. Stephen Spurrier, at the last minute, decided to make it blind. At the last minute, he decided to throw in some benchmark French wines. He had some great wines. He had Mouton Rothschild. He had Bâtard Montrachet, Pouilly Montrachet. I mean, he had some very, very good French wines and the judges were royalty in France. You know, they were wine royalty. And so because of all these factors, it became newsworthy. You know, if any one of those factors had not been present, I don't think it would have ever been an important event. So it's one of those things. It's just, you know, the word in English is serendipity. There's probably a similar word in French.
Speaker #0
But there is not actually. There's no such word as serendipity in French.
Speaker #1
So serendipity is something that just happened. You know, if one element, if any of the one elements had not been present, it wouldn't have happened. So it just happened. It was good for the industry. And, you know, after that, you got a lot of actually French investment in California. I mean, Opus One, I don't think it's coincidence that Opus One was opened in 1979, three years after the judgment of Paris. And, you know, so there's been a lot of investment in California by French, a lot of the champagne houses, you know, Rotor, Chandon. I mean, so many different champagne houses have invested in California in starting really in the early 80s. So so it did a lot. It got it got California internationally. people became more focused, but also in... the United States, people got more interested. So anyway, that's what the judgment was about.
Speaker #0
Yeah, so judgment of Paris, just for people listening, is that basically people in Paris, where was it? The Intercontinental Hotel in Paris. Okay, so it's like a hotel very close to the Opera, and they decided to blind test American wines and French wines. And at the end of it, they realized that actually they ranked American wines better than French wines. That's right.
Speaker #1
So basically what happened is... Stephen Spurrier had a partner, an American woman named Patricia Gallagher, and she, as an American, she was very, she would come to the U.S. every year. to visit. And one year she came and she went to Los Angeles to visit her sister who was living there. And they drove up the coast. And then she spent 10 days or so in Napa and Sonoma. And she came back to Paris and she told Steven Spurrier, you know, these wines are really good. We should do a tasting, excuse me, a tasting in sort of, because it's also the 200 year anniversary of the United States. in 1976. So Stephen then came back to California. He went to all the wineries. He selected the wineries. And then he had friends and others that hand-carried all the wines back to Paris. So originally, it was not intended to be a competition. It was just intended to be a friendly tasting.
Speaker #0
Moment of sharing. Yeah.
Speaker #1
And it was only sort of at the last minute that he decided to... to make it more interesting, as he put it. So it's just one of those things that happens. But you're right. I mean, at the end of the, they had to score all the wines. And at the end of it, the judges, the composite scores, the white wine that got the highest score was a Chardonnay from Chateau Montelena, which I think we're going to try.
Speaker #0
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker #1
And then the red wine was from Stag's Leap Wine Cellars, which is in Napa. So they just got the highest scores. And then they've done the ret... the retesting, you know, 20 years later, 30 years later, 40 years later.
Speaker #0
And also California ends up doing pretty well. So you talked about these wines. You prepared four wines for us to taste and to discover a bit the story behind them. Yes, let's do it. I'll let you read this. So there are four Chardonnays, which is good.
Speaker #1
So let's do it this way. I think let's go from left to right. So let's start out with the Chateau Montalena, because this is the wine, this is the 2023 vintage, but it's the same wine that won in the Judgment of Paris, the 1973 vintage. So 50 years ago, a vintage 50 years old.
Speaker #0
Thank you.
Speaker #1
You're welcome.
Speaker #0
So where is the Chateau Montalena?
Speaker #1
Chateau Montalena is all the way in the northern part of Napa.
Speaker #0
Okay.
Speaker #1
It's almost all the way to the most northern. portion of Napa. Now, I don't know for a fact if all of this fruit is, it says Napa Valley on it, so it could be, I'm sure it's coming from Carneros, which is in the southern, even though the winery's in the north, I'm quite sure that the grapes are coming from the southern part of Napa because that's where it's coolest. Cheers, by the way. But in the original. Chardonnay that won. It actually was mostly Sonoma County fruit. Most of the Sonoma fruit was from Alexander Valley, and then a portion of it was from Russian River Valley. And then some was from Napa, from the southern part. So Carneros is a very unusual part of California because it's one of the only regions that has half of it is in Napa. And half of it is in Sonoma. Okay. But they're both called Carneros. So, but that's where most of the Chardonnay that comes from Napa is grown, in the south. Because it's very close to the San Francisco Bay. So, it gets the cool air coming in from the San Francisco Bay.
Speaker #0
It's a very interesting Chardonnay. Like, you have all the profiles from the Chardonnay, but still a very good acidity, which is kind of refreshing for a 10 a.m. tasting.
Speaker #1
It is nice.
Speaker #0
And I don't know if… that's the ocean but you have like kind of a stunning touch uh idea you know top of the tongue a little bit of it great acid i really like the acid on this wine yeah a very balanced wine not too oaky but it's got good integration and yeah it's a nice wine you like it no i absolutely love it okay good it's a so it's part of the history of um of america it's a very historical winery i mean you The place looks beautiful as well.
Speaker #1
It is beautiful. And it kind of looks like a chateau, doesn't it? Actually, you should go there sometime when you come to California because it's a beautiful winery.
Speaker #0
100%.
Speaker #1
Yeah. Okay. So the next one we have is Rombauer. So Rombauer, again, it says Carneros on the label. So it's very explicit that it's Carneros. And it does not say Napa. Or Sonoma. It's just saying Carnero. So technically, some of the grapes could come from the Napa side and some could come from the Sonoma side. But it's really the. One of the most important, oh, here we go. One of the most important wine Chardonnay growing regions of Northern California. I will say this about this. This is very different in style. Very different profile, yeah. Very different style. So I don't know if people want to see that. We'll show all the wines at the end. So this is one of the most popular Chardonnays in the United States.
Speaker #0
Okay.
Speaker #1
And the people who like Rombauer Chardonnay love Rombauer Chardonnay. You know, generally speaking, wine drinkers like variety. They don't like to drink the same thing all the time. But Rombauer fans drink it all the time. They absolutely love it. So, very different.
Speaker #0
Very different profile, yeah.
Speaker #1
It's bigger. It's more opulent. It's perhaps a little oakier. And it's... It's just a bigger wine.
Speaker #0
And you can feel as well a bit of fresh herbs, like a bit of menthol, lavender. Yeah,
Speaker #1
it definitely has this more savory tones than the other one.
Speaker #0
And so basically the two are made at the same place,
Speaker #1
almost. Well, they're not made at the same place, but the fruit is coming from similar areas.
Speaker #0
It's very interesting expressions for these two. Yeah.
Speaker #1
So, between... So I won't ask you what you like the best. We'll wait until the end.
Speaker #0
Wait until the end.
Speaker #1
The next wine is actually very, very interesting because this is a very, very famous winery called the Hyde Vineyard. So Aubert de Villene, their family owns this.
Speaker #0
Okay. The de Villene family from Burgundy? Yeah, Burgundy. Oh, okay.
Speaker #1
And it's… It's a very famous vineyard in Carneros.
Speaker #0
So the De Villene family in France is known for obviously La Romanée Conti, but also for other smaller estates that they have in the family, focusing a lot on acid, actually, and on the place of water. So I'm curious to see the results in California.
Speaker #1
I like the nose on this wine. It has a very nice... nose. I would, I feel like this wine is kind of in between those other two wines, right? This is more acidic, a little leaner.
Speaker #0
This is more opulent. And this is in between. And this is in between, don't you think?
Speaker #1
Yeah, I think so too.
Speaker #0
But very nice,
Speaker #1
a delightful wine.
Speaker #0
Delightful, very balanced as well. Like the balance between acidity, roundness.
Speaker #1
Right.
Speaker #0
Really, really interesting. Texture is really, really soft as well. Very nice wine. So then the last wine we have, interestingly,
Speaker #1
is also Carneros. So these are all wines that are coming from either Napa or Sonoma. And this one also does not stipulate. I mean, the winery is in Oakville, which is Napa, but it doesn't stipulate on the label whether it's Napa or Sonoma. It just says Carneros. So it could be actually either. And probably they have fruit from both Napa and Sonoma.
Speaker #0
So it's a focused tasting on Carneros today. We'll see each other again, I think, tomorrow for lunch. Excellent. We'll try more wines. We'll try more wines and other things. And this is the Prisoner Wine Company.
Speaker #1
Prisoner is a brand that became very, very popular. Their red wine, which is a Zinfandel-based blend. That became very popular, and then they started making the Chardonnay. And I haven't tasted this recently, but this is going to be, I think, more along the lines of the Rombauer, the second one, I think. Let's taste it. And it definitely is. It's bigger, rounder. It's a more opulent wine. It even has a bit more oak, don't you think?
Speaker #0
A bit more oak than Rombauer. Yeah, 100%.
Speaker #1
So anyway, it's an interesting selection of wines. I think they're all pretty good. But, you know, next time we do a Chardonnay tasting, I'd love to introduce you to some other other regions, because whether it's West Sonoma Coast or Russian River or Monterey County.
Speaker #0
or Santa Rita Hills, Santa Barbara. They're all different styles. In fact, this is one of the things that's so fun about California, especially with Chardonnay and Pinot Noir, is that there are just a lot of different regions that produce very high-quality Chardonnay and Pinot Noir, but they're different. Each region is a little bit different, so it's kind of fun.
Speaker #1
And do you have, like, specifications to follow? in In France, what I'm used to is like appellations having a very specific blend that you must do and that type of thing. Is it the same with aviary? No,
Speaker #0
it's completely different. In fact, this is one of the most important. I'm glad you brought it up because one of the most important differences in California compared to many other regions in the world, whether it's Italian or French or other parts of Europe where they have well-defined rules. About what you can do and what you can't do and even what grapes you can put into it and what you can't put into it. California has none of that.
Speaker #1
Okay.
Speaker #0
So the only thing it has to say accurately is the variety, the vintage, and where it's from. That's it. You can put, so I'll give you a great example. In 50 years ago, there was almost no Chardonnay in Napa. The most dominant. white wine variety was chine and blanc okay and then that changed and but you can you know you can make anything you want in california and from anywhere you want so that's a good thing and maybe a bad thing sometimes because you can um the winemaker has the the flexibility i mean he could put viognier and cabernet sauvignon if you want it you know he can do whatever he wants so so that's that makes it more interesting, but I think most people will do things that are sort of within, you know, within range. Yeah. I mean, so Savion Blanc, you know, may have some semi on it, may not have some semi on it, but you know, they've kind of follow the rules, but there are no rules. I mean, they follow sort of the conventions, I should say, not, not rules.
Speaker #1
Okay. So if you want to have the AVA Sonoma, as long as you're based in Sonoma,
Speaker #0
as long as it comes from Sonoma. So, so. So let's take Napa. Napa is easier. But Sonoma is exactly the same. So Napa, if you say it's Napa Valley, it has to come from Napa Valley. It can come from anywhere in Napa.
Speaker #1
And can be any grape.
Speaker #0
It can be any grape, yeah. It can be any grape, but it has to come from Napa Valley. If you say it's Oakville or Rutherford, it needs to come from that specific part of Napa.
Speaker #1
And then you don't have anything in like... aging process, winemaking, you can do everything you want? You can do whatever you want. Oh, wow.
Speaker #0
But you can't, you can't, you have to, if you say it's 2019, it has to be 2019. If you say, well, no, there is some flexibility. So if you say it's Cabernet Sauvignon, as an example, it has to be 75% Cabernet Sauvignon, but it could be, there could be some Merlot, there could be some Cabernet Franc in there, there could be some Petit Verdot or whatever. In the blend, and you don't have to say that on the label. As long as it's at least 75% Cabernet Sauvignon. There's less, there's not, but where it comes from is super strict, you know. And so if you think about it, you can say it's Napa, Napa Valley, say Howell Mountain or Oakville, or you can actually get vineyard specific. So some of the Mondavi wines and other wines or this wine, Hyde. They're specifically saying it's from the Hyde Vineyard. But there's a very famous vineyard in Napa next to Mondavi called Tokolon. Tokolon Vineyard. So they'll put Tokolon on the label. And that means the fruit has to come from that vineyard. So the more specific you're putting your labeling, the more accurate it has to be. I mean, yeah.
Speaker #1
Because it's interesting because it's... It's close to what we're used to in Europe, but it's actually more open in the way you can do it. You know, like, you know what I mean? In Europe, if you want to have this specific appellation, this specific thing, you need to narrow down your geography as well. But it comes with a lot of constraints on winemaking and on what you can or cannot do.
Speaker #0
And what grape varieties you can use. If you're shut enough to pop, you can only use those specific wine grapes. And so that's different than in California. And like in Chianti in Italy, you can't irrigate, you know. Well, in California, you can irrigate or you cannot irrigate. It's really whatever you choose to do. So it's just a different kind of. attitude about the wine. You know, in California, our branding, when we talk about our branding, it's about innovation and boldness and inclusiveness and sustainability. Those are sort of the four brand pillars that we think about. And they do represent very much the California wine industry. I think that part of California is about taking chances and trying things. I don't think it's coincidence. that Hollywood is in California, that the tech industry, the Apple computers and all these are in California, actually just 50 miles away from Napa. And that same philosophy transfers into the wines and the way people are willing to try different things and experiment.
Speaker #1
100%. And I've seen a lot of winemakers in the world. And, you know, sometimes when you do some winemaking studies, you have like internship abroad. Right. And so... A lot of them actually went to the U.S. for internships, so either California or a bit of Oregon as well.
Speaker #0
Right.
Speaker #1
And when I asked them, what did you learn there and that you want to take back in your country? They're like the ability to try things, to test, to innovate, and just to make wines that people actually want. Right. I think it's the type of spirit that you guys have.
Speaker #0
Oh, it's great. And, you know, for example, earlier we talked about Paso Robles. I've had a Nebbiolo from Paso Robles. And I've had Tempranillos, and I've had a lot of the Rhone varieties. In fact, there's one winery there called Tablas Creek. They try to replicate Chateau Neuf-du-Pape as closely as possible. And they do a pretty good job. So, I mean, there's a lot of different ways that you can go about it. So, anyway.
Speaker #1
How is the market today for Californian wine? So, we are at Vina Expo. Last day of it. Are you happy of this? How is the reception for Oregon? Yeah, you know,
Speaker #0
I'm happy when our wineries are happy. And I think generally speaking, the people have been pleased. I think we have a beautiful pavilion. I think it's attracted a lot of people. There are some very good wineries here. We have 30 wineries. And Oregon has another nine. So there are 40 wineries in our pavilion. And it's a very good cross-section. There's some. small wineries that are making very high quality sort of boutique-ish wines. And then there's some very large producers that have, you know, a wide variety of brands. And so it's a good mix. I think that the show, I've been coming to VinExpo, well, as long in the last 20 years, I've been coming. And, you know, last year they had it in Singapore, two years ago they had it Hong Kong. And I think that this show is the best. that it's been since COVID. You know, it just seems to be improving. I also think it's fantastic that it's in Hong Kong.
Speaker #1
Hong Kong is back.
Speaker #0
I think Hong Kong is the best city for a big trade show like this. So I'm very happy that we're here.
Speaker #1
I couldn't agree more. For me, Hong Kong is the best city. period.
Speaker #0
I can't make quite an extreme statement like that, but I love Hong Kong also.
Speaker #1
It's a very good place. And for wine, actually, it's an amazing...
Speaker #0
Oh, it's a great place for wine.
Speaker #1
Amazing wine bars, a lot of restaurants. I guess for you, it's also an important market, even though it's a small island. No,
Speaker #0
it is important. It is important. And it also is a gateway for a lot of other areas. So it's very important.
Speaker #1
We hear a lot of people talking about like Thailand, Cambodia, as... next countries? And is it something that you see as well for California?
Speaker #0
I think Thailand is definitely on the rise. I think Vietnam could also be on the rise. And some of these countries have some really good things going for it. I'll give you an example of Vietnam because I'm very familiar with it. In Vietnam, you have 70% of the population is under 40 years old.
Speaker #1
Okay.
Speaker #0
The GDP growth is 6.5% a year. Yep. positive birth rates. You have increasing income, disposable income, very, very aspirational consumers. So I think over the long term, Vietnam is going to do very, very well. Now, the problem is it's hard to get wine in. So there are some issues that have nothing to do with the consumer. And so you have to sort of weigh those factors as well. Thailand reduced their taxes last year. wine. And I think it's also has a lot of opportunity. You know, Malaysia has some opportunity also, although it's a Muslim country to a large extent, same thing with Indonesia. But there's, but I think Southeast Asia is one part of the world that you will see growth. over the next five to 10 years.
Speaker #1
Yeah, I hear a lot of people talking about Indonesia as well. So I'm pretty sure that there's going to be something nice. Christopher, thank you very much for this discussion and for making me discover these four Chardonnay. I hope you like them. Yeah, honestly, I really like them. Very different profiles between them. Very different, yeah. So very different moments in which I could appreciate them, you know, some things more rookie, something more on the acid. So it's... Different moments of consumption, but definitely wines that I could drink by myself with friends, of course, and have pleasure doing this. So thank you very much for making me discover these wines. Thank you. I have three last questions. So the first one is, do you have a book recommendation for me? Maybe something on American wines, if you have, or in general.
Speaker #0
Yeah, there are a couple of books. So Elaine Chacon-Brown, who is a California wine expert, just published a book. this past year on California wines. I can send you the link to that, but that's a very good book. Also, Karen McNeil, who wrote The Wine Bible, has a very good section on California. So that's another book that I would say might be worth taking a look at.
Speaker #1
Great. For you guys, I'll put the link in the description if you want to discover Californian wines within writing. It's also a good way to deepen this knowledge. Do you have a recent tasting that you loved?
Speaker #0
You know, we're starting to do these Judgment of Paris events. And our first one will be tomorrow, actually, here in Hong Kong. And I'm very excited about it because we have all of the original Judgment of Paris wines. Not the old vintages, but current vintages. And then we also have a couple of other wines that are very important to have, like Robert Mondavi we have. And the reason we have Mondavi is that both Mike Gergich, who made the Montelena that won, and Warren Winiarski, who made the red wine that won, They both had worked at Robert Mondavi Wine before they went off on their own. So we have those wines. And then we have a list of wines that I'm calling modern California or wines that are not what people would expect. So we have like an Albarino from Napa.
Speaker #1
Okay.
Speaker #0
And we have some other wines like that that are very kind of unexpected but represent the current trend in California wines. So... I'm looking forward to that. It hasn't happened yet, but I'm quite sure it's going to be a success.
Speaker #1
I'll be there tomorrow as well. Excellent. Well, you can judge. Super happy to be with you tomorrow as well. And finally, who is the next person I should interview?
Speaker #0
Ah, the next person you should interview. I don't know. I think from California, I think, you know what you need to do? You need to come to California. And if you come to California, I will set you up with some fantastic interviews with winemakers, but also with some people like Elaine Brown. You would love talking to her because she's encyclopedic when it comes to California wines. And also Karen McNeil. Karen McNeil would be very good for you. They both live in Northern California. Karen is in Napa. Elaine lives in Sonoma. But they both have just endless knowledge. There's another woman named Kelly White. who's also encyclopedic on wine.
Speaker #1
Great. We'll make sure to make this happen. Good. 100% sorry. Marine was telling me that we have just a few minutes left together. No worries. No worries. But yeah, we'll make sure to come to California.
Speaker #0
I would love for you to come to California. So please let me know.
Speaker #1
100%.
Speaker #0
Give me a little bit of notice, and we'll make sure to set up an exceptional trip for you.
Speaker #1
We'll make this happen. Thank you very much. Thank you very much for doing this interview and for making me discover these wines. Good celebration of the California Wine Month. Thank you. In Hong Kong, we have French May, during which we have expositions and stuff about dance, and everything. But we also have the California Wine Month. It's coming up. It should be good. Thank you. For this, we'll put all the information in the description in case you want to attend some events, join things. Thanks again, and see you soon. Thank you. Nice, thank you very much. You have to get me a hat like that.

About Wine Makers Show: the wine podcast

What to Expect

In-Depth Interviews: Hear from top figures in the wine world, from renowned vintners to unsung heroes, as they share their experiences, challenges, and secrets to success.
Club Episodes: Explore specific wine topics, from production techniques to tasting tips, in focused, occasional deep dives.
A Journey of Discovery: Whether you're a novice or a connoisseur, we break down the complexities of wine to make it accessible and engaging.

Why Listen?

Connect with Us

Visit winemakersshow.com to get in touch or suggest a guest.
Email Antoine directly at winemakersshow@gmail.com.
Follow the journey on Instagram: @winemakersshow
Join the Academy and learn everything about wine

Tune in to Wine Makers Show and sip on the stories behind every bottle!

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

About Wine Makers Show: the wine podcast

What to Expect

In-Depth Interviews: Hear from top figures in the wine world, from renowned vintners to unsung heroes, as they share their experiences, challenges, and secrets to success.
Club Episodes: Explore specific wine topics, from production techniques to tasting tips, in focused, occasional deep dives.
A Journey of Discovery: Whether you're a novice or a connoisseur, we break down the complexities of wine to make it accessible and engaging.

Why Listen?

Connect with Us

Visit winemakersshow.com to get in touch or suggest a guest.
Email Antoine directly at winemakersshow@gmail.com.
Follow the journey on Instagram: @winemakersshow
Join the Academy and learn everything about wine

Tune in to Wine Makers Show and sip on the stories behind every bottle!

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Description

Then we open the bottles. Four Chardonnays, all from Carneros, all wildly different.

Tune in for a masterclass in why California is far more than big oaky whites, and why Asia's most curious drinkers are falling for it.

▬▬ 🎁 GIFTS 🎁 ▬▬

📚 The Wines of California, by Elaine Chukan Brown

📚 The Wine Bible, by Karen MacNeil

🍇 Learn more about California Wines

🇭🇰 More details about the California Wine Month in Hong Kong & Macau

🍷 The wines we tasted:

Château Montelena Chardonnay 2023
Rombauer Chardonnay 2024
Hyde de Villaine (HdV) De La Guerra Chardonnay 2023
The Prisoner Wine Company The Prisoner Chardonnay 2021

🎁 Get your wine essentials on our shop: a curated selection of wine accessories, posters and much more

🗺️ Get the best Wine Map of the Bordeaux region: as information as decorative

▬▬ ⭐️ ABOUT ⭐️ ▬▬

ALCOHOL ABUSE IS DANGEROUS FOUR YOUR HEALTH. CONSUME IN MODERATION.

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Transcription

Speaker #0
Hi, Christopher.
Speaker #1
Hi.
Speaker #0
Thank you very much for welcoming us in this booth. So we are in Vinaxpo right now.
Speaker #1
Welcome to California away from California.
Speaker #0
It's a good way to say it. I see a lot of ocean on the screen just behind the camera. So it gives me the appetite to come discover. Well, you should.
Speaker #1
You should come and visit us.
Speaker #0
It would be my pleasure. I've never been to California, actually.
Speaker #1
All the more reason.
Speaker #0
So one more reason. And thank you very much for doing this interview this morning. We'll talk about a lot of things. But first, can you introduce yourself?
Speaker #1
Sure. My name is Christopher Barros. I am the director of Greater China and Southeast Asia for the California Wine Institute. I've been involved with wine for much of my career, not all my career, but much of my career. And I lived and worked in mainland China for a long time. But since 2015, I've been having a much larger area. So I am back. to living in California. I lived in Shanghai for a long time, but I live in California again, and I just travel back and forth, which is okay. It's a little tiring, but it allows me to see a lot of greater China and Southeast Asia, which is where I spend most of my time.
Speaker #0
How did you start in the wine industry?
Speaker #1
That's a great question. So I was actually in finance, and I was covering food and beverage companies? It was my industry specialty. And then in 2006, I came to China for the very first time working on a transaction, actually. And I was so amazed by China. I knew that I wanted to get involved somehow in business in China. And I actually started a company importing California wine to mainland China. And I ran that company until 2015 when we sold it. And then the Wine Institute approached me and asked me if I'd be interested in.
Speaker #0
representing them in this part of the world and i've been doing it ever since how was the the reception of uh californian wines in china at that point because like i know that from so from a french point of view right there was a a moment in the history of china when it was just like booming for french wines so it's just like especially red bordeaux varietals exactly red bottle of wine with a chateau on it and then you were starting to be sold out. Yeah.
Speaker #1
So between 2007 and 2010, about the only thing that was really selling in mainland China were red Bordeaux varietals, no Burgundy, no white wines, no American wines. It was just those wines. And, but what's happened in China, which is so interesting to me is the, the consumer has become much, much more sophisticated and much, much more open-minded. And so... So people now are drinking California Zinfandel or German Rieslings or a lot of white wine. So it's actually very exciting and to me, very interesting what's happening there now.
Speaker #0
For me, it's actually a discovery as well. When I went in China, in mainland, I was like talking with wine passionates and I was very impressed by their culture of wine. They have a deep understanding of the places that... A lot of my friends don't even have in France, you know, like they talk about certain regions in France, the type of grape varieties and everything. So I guess it's the same for you.
Speaker #1
Well, you know, it's very interesting because, you know, back 10 years ago, 15 years ago, every wine region in the world that was thinking about exporting went to China. So you could find wines from Hungary and Georgia and Slovakia and everywhere that you couldn't find in other places. So the Chinese consumer was exposed. to so many different wines. And because they didn't have great loyalty to any particular wine region, they're sort of agnostic and they'll try different things. And I find that very exciting.
Speaker #0
For me, it's super exciting. And that's why also since we live here in Hong Kong, I'm super happy to see a variety of things on wine menu that we didn't have before. Australians, Americans, like a lot of different things that we taste. And it's just amazing. Yeah. So you leave Shanghai in 2015? 2007 to 2019. Okay.
Speaker #1
Yeah. And then when COVID hit, I moved back to the US. And so now I'm just living in the San Francisco area. And I just travel back and forth every month or more frequently.
Speaker #0
And so you said you sold this company and then started working. for the California? Yeah.
Speaker #1
So I was approached by the California Wine Institute in early 2015, and they asked if I would be interested in representing them in Asia. And initially, it wasn't something I'd ever done before, and I actually wasn't particularly interested, but then I decided, well, why not? I'll give it a try. And I love it. I've been really enjoying it. I like the industry a lot. I like the people in the industry. Like many wine drinkers, there's so much variety. There's so many different things to try. So it fits in very well with my skill set and also my interests. So I'm happy.
Speaker #0
So the Californian Wine Institute, the goal is basically to gather all the producers from California, I guess? Yeah.
Speaker #1
So the best way to think about it is the Californian Wine Institute has been around for a very long time, since 1934. It was started after Prohibition ended in the United States. And it really has two parts to it. So in the domestic Wine Institute program, there are about a thousand wineries, and they're very interested in the U.S. legal and public policy situation and make it more favorable to the industry and also trade policy issues. So that's one part of it, the domestic part. The international part is completely separate. And it's a... It's a pure marketing organization. And so what we do is we try to promote California wines around the world. I have counterparts in North Asia, in Japan and Korea, in Canada, Mexico, the UK, and Europe.
Speaker #0
Okay. And so can you tell us more about the California wine regions? So I told you in the introductions that I know a little bit of California geography, but not that much.
Speaker #1
So how much time do you have?
Speaker #0
Honestly, it's unlimited. You know, for me, it's the third day of an expo. All right.
Speaker #1
Well, people can't see it, but on this map over here, you will see there are 154 AVAs. An AVA is like an agricultural, American viticultural area. So each one of those different points on the map represents a distinct and unique wine-growing region in California. But let's talk about the major ones. The most famous, of course, is Napa. Napa. Everybody has heard of Napa. But interestingly, it's only 4% of California wine comes from Napa. It's not a very big place. It's 30 miles long, four miles wide, has about 600 wineries in it. But they are very famous. They make world-class Cabernet Sauvignon. Just to the west of Napa, you have Sonoma County. And Sonoma is perhaps a little more diverse. It's much larger. You have the West Sonoma Coast, which is right by the ocean. You have Alexander Valley. You have Dry Creek Valley. You have Carneros and Russian River Valley. So there's a lot there. But I'd probably say for fine wine, Napa and Sonoma are the best known. But then as you start going down the coast, just south of San Francisco, you have the Santa Cruz Mountains. Santa Cruz Mountains, it's not a very large area, but some of the finest wines come from there. So, for example, Ridge, which as a winery you may have heard of, that's Santa Cruz Mountains. Then as you continue going south, you come to Monterey County and Santa Lucia Highlands, which is where they make some absolutely spectacular Pinot Noirs. And then you keep going south and you come to Paso Robles. Pastor Robles is a very... It's becoming a very famous part of California, producing a lot of very, very good wines at more attractive pricing, price points. They also are making some beautiful Rhone variety wines. So I think it may end up being one of the best parts of California for wines that are Rhone style wines. And then you keep going south and you come to Santa Barbara County and you have Santa Maria Valley and Santa Inez Valley. And this is a very interesting place because if you look on the map, it's the one place where there's a little jog in the geography. So it goes down and then it goes east. That's the only place in North and South America where you have a mountain range that's going west to east instead of north to south. The reason that's important is that the fog comes blowing directly in. It doesn't have the protection that the... mountain range has. And so you get some really beautiful wines, especially a region called Santa Rita Hills, some fabulous Pinot Noirs. And so that whole area is known for Chardonnay and Pinot Noir. So the thing about California, if I have to leave one thing with the people who are listening to this, is there's a lot of diversity. There's a lot of diversity in the regions. There's a lot of diversity in the grape varieties. And the weather is also varied. But the most important, perhaps, aspect is the fact that California is right next to the Pacific Ocean. Pacific Ocean is a very, very— cold body of water. So the inner part of California gets very warm during the day. By the ocean, it's very cold during the day. And so that brings the fog in every night. So what happens is the grapes have a much longer growing season. They ripen more slowly. They get to a physiological ripeness with a more sort of complex structure. And so many different things grow very, very well. Anyway, I could go on about this for 20 minutes.
Speaker #0
No, no, but what I remember from my one course is that it's a very warm place. And the more you go inside the land, the warmer it is. And I also remember what you said a bit about the ocean. They were saying also that you have inner lakes that brings a bit of freshness. And you have actually a lot of mountains. I think that We don't have this image when you talk about California. I don't have this image. But actually, you have a lot of mountains and so different altitudes for going on.
Speaker #1
And a simple way of thinking about that is Napa Valley. Because in Napa Valley, you have two mountain ranges on either side of the valley. You have the Mayakamas Range on the west and the Vaca Range on the east. And there are a lot of different parts of Napa. But for example, Oakville, where Mondavi is from or Opus One is from, is very different than wines that are from Howell Mountain, which is on the eastern mountain range at much higher elevation. So even within Napa, which is a small area, you get different expressions, even of Cabernet Sauvignon, depending on the altitude where it's grown, how much exposure it has. Because Napa, as you go north, it gets hotter and hotter. The southern part of Napa is getting influence from the San Francisco Bay, so it's a little bit cooler. So, yes, this happens everywhere in California. Another good example is West Sonoma Coast, which is very, very close to the ocean. So people thought when they were first planning some of the wineries, like Hirsch is an important winery in that area. I think their vineyard is maybe less than two miles from the ocean. People said you're never going to get grapes to ripen there. It's just too cold. But they do. And you have beautiful acidity and very interesting things. So it sort of depends on what you want to do. There's some place in California where those wine grapes will grow well.
Speaker #0
Let's talk. So we talked about the geography of California. There are plenty to say more about this, but I guess we'll do other episodes, other formats to discover this. I'll come back and talk to you about that. I'll definitely come to California. Oh, you're welcome. We'd love to have you. To show it. Let's talk a bit about the history of Californian wine as well. So you said that Californian Wine Institute dates from 1932? 1934. 1934, sorry. But so I guess there were grapes before that in California?
Speaker #1
Yeah, so basically the history goes all the way back to the Spanish missionaries that came to California in the very beginning. So if you think about a lot of the cities in California, like San Francisco, Santa Clara, San Jose, these are all mission. And these Spanish missionaries. came in and they started going north and they built missions along the way. This was in the 1700s. And as they went, they brought what are called mission grapes. And those were the first wines that were made in California. They were made originally for sacramental, for religious purposes. But then people started drinking wine. And so California actually started producing a lot of wine. And there were a couple of important people who came and brought. cuttings from Europe and elsewhere. And so the industry started to flourish. And by the late 1800s, it was doing actually fairly well. And then a few things happened. World War I happened, and that had a very negative impact. And then Prohibition happened, which was a period of time that lasted almost 15 years where it was illegal in the United States to produce or sell. any alcohol commercially. So that obviously had a huge negative impact on the wine industry. And then shortly thereafter, you had World War II, which also had a negative impact. So you had this extended period of time when it was very difficult for the California wine industry. And then in 1966, Robert Mondavi started his winery in Oakville in Napa. And Robert Mondavi was a very important person, not only because he was bringing very sophisticated techniques to California winemaking, but he was really an ambassador for California wine. So he would travel a lot. He would take his wine and show them in Europe and elsewhere, but he would also take his neighbor's wines. You know, his philosophy was, if Napa does well, I'll do well. So that happened in 1966. And then in 1976, we had the Judgment of Paris.
Speaker #0
I told you we were going to talk about this even though I'm French.
Speaker #1
And I can talk to you a lot about the Judgment of Paris. But for now, just in terms of history, the Judgment of Paris, the most important thing about the Judgment of Paris is that it accelerated the speed with which the world came to know. that California was making very high quality wines. I think that the industry would have gotten to where it is today without the judgment of Paris, but it just moved everything much, much faster. Because in 1976, nobody knew about California wines. And in fact, in the mid 70s or early 70s, if you went to San Francisco or New York to a fine restaurant, all the wines on the wine list were French. Or maybe there's an Italian here or there. But there are almost no California wines on the list. And at that time in Napa, as an example, you had about 50 wineries. Today there are over 600. So what the Judgment of Paris did is because it was written up in a mainstream periodical in Time magazine, and it was buried on page 56 of the June 7, 1976 issue, but it got picked up on the wires. on the AP and UPI. And so other people started publishing versions of it. And so, you know, Chicago Tribune, LA Times, New York Times, they all started publishing articles about the judgment. So kind of overnight, everybody knew about it. And then the consumers who liked wine would say, hey, I want to get that wine. Where can I get Chateau Montelena? Where can I get Stag's Leap Wine Cellar? So it created a certain excitement and interest in wine. But I think all it did was reveal that California can make world-class wines. That's all it really did. It was not intended to be competitive. Stephen Spurrier, at the last minute, decided to make it blind. At the last minute, he decided to throw in some benchmark French wines. He had some great wines. He had Mouton Rothschild. He had Bâtard Montrachet, Pouilly Montrachet. I mean, he had some very, very good French wines and the judges were royalty in France. You know, they were wine royalty. And so because of all these factors, it became newsworthy. You know, if any one of those factors had not been present, I don't think it would have ever been an important event. So it's one of those things. It's just, you know, the word in English is serendipity. There's probably a similar word in French.
Speaker #0
But there is not actually. There's no such word as serendipity in French.
Speaker #1
So serendipity is something that just happened. You know, if one element, if any of the one elements had not been present, it wouldn't have happened. So it just happened. It was good for the industry. And, you know, after that, you got a lot of actually French investment in California. I mean, Opus One, I don't think it's coincidence that Opus One was opened in 1979, three years after the judgment of Paris. And, you know, so there's been a lot of investment in California by French, a lot of the champagne houses, you know, Rotor, Chandon. I mean, so many different champagne houses have invested in California in starting really in the early 80s. So so it did a lot. It got it got California internationally. people became more focused, but also in... the United States, people got more interested. So anyway, that's what the judgment was about.
Speaker #0
Yeah, so judgment of Paris, just for people listening, is that basically people in Paris, where was it? The Intercontinental Hotel in Paris. Okay, so it's like a hotel very close to the Opera, and they decided to blind test American wines and French wines. And at the end of it, they realized that actually they ranked American wines better than French wines. That's right.
Speaker #1
So basically what happened is... Stephen Spurrier had a partner, an American woman named Patricia Gallagher, and she, as an American, she was very, she would come to the U.S. every year. to visit. And one year she came and she went to Los Angeles to visit her sister who was living there. And they drove up the coast. And then she spent 10 days or so in Napa and Sonoma. And she came back to Paris and she told Steven Spurrier, you know, these wines are really good. We should do a tasting, excuse me, a tasting in sort of, because it's also the 200 year anniversary of the United States. in 1976. So Stephen then came back to California. He went to all the wineries. He selected the wineries. And then he had friends and others that hand-carried all the wines back to Paris. So originally, it was not intended to be a competition. It was just intended to be a friendly tasting.
Speaker #0
Moment of sharing. Yeah.
Speaker #1
And it was only sort of at the last minute that he decided to... to make it more interesting, as he put it. So it's just one of those things that happens. But you're right. I mean, at the end of the, they had to score all the wines. And at the end of it, the judges, the composite scores, the white wine that got the highest score was a Chardonnay from Chateau Montelena, which I think we're going to try.
Speaker #0
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker #1
And then the red wine was from Stag's Leap Wine Cellars, which is in Napa. So they just got the highest scores. And then they've done the ret... the retesting, you know, 20 years later, 30 years later, 40 years later.
Speaker #0
And also California ends up doing pretty well. So you talked about these wines. You prepared four wines for us to taste and to discover a bit the story behind them. Yes, let's do it. I'll let you read this. So there are four Chardonnays, which is good.
Speaker #1
So let's do it this way. I think let's go from left to right. So let's start out with the Chateau Montalena, because this is the wine, this is the 2023 vintage, but it's the same wine that won in the Judgment of Paris, the 1973 vintage. So 50 years ago, a vintage 50 years old.
Speaker #0
Thank you.
Speaker #1
You're welcome.
Speaker #0
So where is the Chateau Montalena?
Speaker #1
Chateau Montalena is all the way in the northern part of Napa.
Speaker #0
Okay.
Speaker #1
It's almost all the way to the most northern. portion of Napa. Now, I don't know for a fact if all of this fruit is, it says Napa Valley on it, so it could be, I'm sure it's coming from Carneros, which is in the southern, even though the winery's in the north, I'm quite sure that the grapes are coming from the southern part of Napa because that's where it's coolest. Cheers, by the way. But in the original. Chardonnay that won. It actually was mostly Sonoma County fruit. Most of the Sonoma fruit was from Alexander Valley, and then a portion of it was from Russian River Valley. And then some was from Napa, from the southern part. So Carneros is a very unusual part of California because it's one of the only regions that has half of it is in Napa. And half of it is in Sonoma. Okay. But they're both called Carneros. So, but that's where most of the Chardonnay that comes from Napa is grown, in the south. Because it's very close to the San Francisco Bay. So, it gets the cool air coming in from the San Francisco Bay.
Speaker #0
It's a very interesting Chardonnay. Like, you have all the profiles from the Chardonnay, but still a very good acidity, which is kind of refreshing for a 10 a.m. tasting.
Speaker #1
It is nice.
Speaker #0
And I don't know if… that's the ocean but you have like kind of a stunning touch uh idea you know top of the tongue a little bit of it great acid i really like the acid on this wine yeah a very balanced wine not too oaky but it's got good integration and yeah it's a nice wine you like it no i absolutely love it okay good it's a so it's part of the history of um of america it's a very historical winery i mean you The place looks beautiful as well.
Speaker #1
It is beautiful. And it kind of looks like a chateau, doesn't it? Actually, you should go there sometime when you come to California because it's a beautiful winery.
Speaker #0
100%.
Speaker #1
Yeah. Okay. So the next one we have is Rombauer. So Rombauer, again, it says Carneros on the label. So it's very explicit that it's Carneros. And it does not say Napa. Or Sonoma. It's just saying Carnero. So technically, some of the grapes could come from the Napa side and some could come from the Sonoma side. But it's really the. One of the most important, oh, here we go. One of the most important wine Chardonnay growing regions of Northern California. I will say this about this. This is very different in style. Very different profile, yeah. Very different style. So I don't know if people want to see that. We'll show all the wines at the end. So this is one of the most popular Chardonnays in the United States.
Speaker #0
Okay.
Speaker #1
And the people who like Rombauer Chardonnay love Rombauer Chardonnay. You know, generally speaking, wine drinkers like variety. They don't like to drink the same thing all the time. But Rombauer fans drink it all the time. They absolutely love it. So, very different.
Speaker #0
Very different profile, yeah.
Speaker #1
It's bigger. It's more opulent. It's perhaps a little oakier. And it's... It's just a bigger wine.
Speaker #0
And you can feel as well a bit of fresh herbs, like a bit of menthol, lavender. Yeah,
Speaker #1
it definitely has this more savory tones than the other one.
Speaker #0
And so basically the two are made at the same place,
Speaker #1
almost. Well, they're not made at the same place, but the fruit is coming from similar areas.
Speaker #0
It's very interesting expressions for these two. Yeah.
Speaker #1
So, between... So I won't ask you what you like the best. We'll wait until the end.
Speaker #0
Wait until the end.
Speaker #1
The next wine is actually very, very interesting because this is a very, very famous winery called the Hyde Vineyard. So Aubert de Villene, their family owns this.
Speaker #0
Okay. The de Villene family from Burgundy? Yeah, Burgundy. Oh, okay.
Speaker #1
And it's… It's a very famous vineyard in Carneros.
Speaker #0
So the De Villene family in France is known for obviously La Romanée Conti, but also for other smaller estates that they have in the family, focusing a lot on acid, actually, and on the place of water. So I'm curious to see the results in California.
Speaker #1
I like the nose on this wine. It has a very nice... nose. I would, I feel like this wine is kind of in between those other two wines, right? This is more acidic, a little leaner.
Speaker #0
This is more opulent. And this is in between. And this is in between, don't you think?
Speaker #1
Yeah, I think so too.
Speaker #0
But very nice,
Speaker #1
a delightful wine.
Speaker #0
Delightful, very balanced as well. Like the balance between acidity, roundness.
Speaker #1
Right.
Speaker #0
Really, really interesting. Texture is really, really soft as well. Very nice wine. So then the last wine we have, interestingly,
Speaker #1
is also Carneros. So these are all wines that are coming from either Napa or Sonoma. And this one also does not stipulate. I mean, the winery is in Oakville, which is Napa, but it doesn't stipulate on the label whether it's Napa or Sonoma. It just says Carneros. So it could be actually either. And probably they have fruit from both Napa and Sonoma.
Speaker #0
So it's a focused tasting on Carneros today. We'll see each other again, I think, tomorrow for lunch. Excellent. We'll try more wines. We'll try more wines and other things. And this is the Prisoner Wine Company.
Speaker #1
Prisoner is a brand that became very, very popular. Their red wine, which is a Zinfandel-based blend. That became very popular, and then they started making the Chardonnay. And I haven't tasted this recently, but this is going to be, I think, more along the lines of the Rombauer, the second one, I think. Let's taste it. And it definitely is. It's bigger, rounder. It's a more opulent wine. It even has a bit more oak, don't you think?
Speaker #0
A bit more oak than Rombauer. Yeah, 100%.
Speaker #1
So anyway, it's an interesting selection of wines. I think they're all pretty good. But, you know, next time we do a Chardonnay tasting, I'd love to introduce you to some other other regions, because whether it's West Sonoma Coast or Russian River or Monterey County.
Speaker #0
or Santa Rita Hills, Santa Barbara. They're all different styles. In fact, this is one of the things that's so fun about California, especially with Chardonnay and Pinot Noir, is that there are just a lot of different regions that produce very high-quality Chardonnay and Pinot Noir, but they're different. Each region is a little bit different, so it's kind of fun.
Speaker #1
And do you have, like, specifications to follow? in In France, what I'm used to is like appellations having a very specific blend that you must do and that type of thing. Is it the same with aviary? No,
Speaker #0
it's completely different. In fact, this is one of the most important. I'm glad you brought it up because one of the most important differences in California compared to many other regions in the world, whether it's Italian or French or other parts of Europe where they have well-defined rules. About what you can do and what you can't do and even what grapes you can put into it and what you can't put into it. California has none of that.
Speaker #1
Okay.
Speaker #0
So the only thing it has to say accurately is the variety, the vintage, and where it's from. That's it. You can put, so I'll give you a great example. In 50 years ago, there was almost no Chardonnay in Napa. The most dominant. white wine variety was chine and blanc okay and then that changed and but you can you know you can make anything you want in california and from anywhere you want so that's a good thing and maybe a bad thing sometimes because you can um the winemaker has the the flexibility i mean he could put viognier and cabernet sauvignon if you want it you know he can do whatever he wants so so that's that makes it more interesting, but I think most people will do things that are sort of within, you know, within range. Yeah. I mean, so Savion Blanc, you know, may have some semi on it, may not have some semi on it, but you know, they've kind of follow the rules, but there are no rules. I mean, they follow sort of the conventions, I should say, not, not rules.
Speaker #1
Okay. So if you want to have the AVA Sonoma, as long as you're based in Sonoma,
Speaker #0
as long as it comes from Sonoma. So, so. So let's take Napa. Napa is easier. But Sonoma is exactly the same. So Napa, if you say it's Napa Valley, it has to come from Napa Valley. It can come from anywhere in Napa.
Speaker #1
And can be any grape.
Speaker #0
It can be any grape, yeah. It can be any grape, but it has to come from Napa Valley. If you say it's Oakville or Rutherford, it needs to come from that specific part of Napa.
Speaker #1
And then you don't have anything in like... aging process, winemaking, you can do everything you want? You can do whatever you want. Oh, wow.
Speaker #0
But you can't, you can't, you have to, if you say it's 2019, it has to be 2019. If you say, well, no, there is some flexibility. So if you say it's Cabernet Sauvignon, as an example, it has to be 75% Cabernet Sauvignon, but it could be, there could be some Merlot, there could be some Cabernet Franc in there, there could be some Petit Verdot or whatever. In the blend, and you don't have to say that on the label. As long as it's at least 75% Cabernet Sauvignon. There's less, there's not, but where it comes from is super strict, you know. And so if you think about it, you can say it's Napa, Napa Valley, say Howell Mountain or Oakville, or you can actually get vineyard specific. So some of the Mondavi wines and other wines or this wine, Hyde. They're specifically saying it's from the Hyde Vineyard. But there's a very famous vineyard in Napa next to Mondavi called Tokolon. Tokolon Vineyard. So they'll put Tokolon on the label. And that means the fruit has to come from that vineyard. So the more specific you're putting your labeling, the more accurate it has to be. I mean, yeah.
Speaker #1
Because it's interesting because it's... It's close to what we're used to in Europe, but it's actually more open in the way you can do it. You know, like, you know what I mean? In Europe, if you want to have this specific appellation, this specific thing, you need to narrow down your geography as well. But it comes with a lot of constraints on winemaking and on what you can or cannot do.
Speaker #0
And what grape varieties you can use. If you're shut enough to pop, you can only use those specific wine grapes. And so that's different than in California. And like in Chianti in Italy, you can't irrigate, you know. Well, in California, you can irrigate or you cannot irrigate. It's really whatever you choose to do. So it's just a different kind of. attitude about the wine. You know, in California, our branding, when we talk about our branding, it's about innovation and boldness and inclusiveness and sustainability. Those are sort of the four brand pillars that we think about. And they do represent very much the California wine industry. I think that part of California is about taking chances and trying things. I don't think it's coincidence. that Hollywood is in California, that the tech industry, the Apple computers and all these are in California, actually just 50 miles away from Napa. And that same philosophy transfers into the wines and the way people are willing to try different things and experiment.
Speaker #1
100%. And I've seen a lot of winemakers in the world. And, you know, sometimes when you do some winemaking studies, you have like internship abroad. Right. And so... A lot of them actually went to the U.S. for internships, so either California or a bit of Oregon as well.
Speaker #0
Right.
Speaker #1
And when I asked them, what did you learn there and that you want to take back in your country? They're like the ability to try things, to test, to innovate, and just to make wines that people actually want. Right. I think it's the type of spirit that you guys have.
Speaker #0
Oh, it's great. And, you know, for example, earlier we talked about Paso Robles. I've had a Nebbiolo from Paso Robles. And I've had Tempranillos, and I've had a lot of the Rhone varieties. In fact, there's one winery there called Tablas Creek. They try to replicate Chateau Neuf-du-Pape as closely as possible. And they do a pretty good job. So, I mean, there's a lot of different ways that you can go about it. So, anyway.
Speaker #1
How is the market today for Californian wine? So, we are at Vina Expo. Last day of it. Are you happy of this? How is the reception for Oregon? Yeah, you know,
Speaker #0
I'm happy when our wineries are happy. And I think generally speaking, the people have been pleased. I think we have a beautiful pavilion. I think it's attracted a lot of people. There are some very good wineries here. We have 30 wineries. And Oregon has another nine. So there are 40 wineries in our pavilion. And it's a very good cross-section. There's some. small wineries that are making very high quality sort of boutique-ish wines. And then there's some very large producers that have, you know, a wide variety of brands. And so it's a good mix. I think that the show, I've been coming to VinExpo, well, as long in the last 20 years, I've been coming. And, you know, last year they had it in Singapore, two years ago they had it Hong Kong. And I think that this show is the best. that it's been since COVID. You know, it just seems to be improving. I also think it's fantastic that it's in Hong Kong.
Speaker #1
Hong Kong is back.
Speaker #0
I think Hong Kong is the best city for a big trade show like this. So I'm very happy that we're here.
Speaker #1
I couldn't agree more. For me, Hong Kong is the best city. period.
Speaker #0
I can't make quite an extreme statement like that, but I love Hong Kong also.
Speaker #1
It's a very good place. And for wine, actually, it's an amazing...
Speaker #0
Oh, it's a great place for wine.
Speaker #1
Amazing wine bars, a lot of restaurants. I guess for you, it's also an important market, even though it's a small island. No,
Speaker #0
it is important. It is important. And it also is a gateway for a lot of other areas. So it's very important.
Speaker #1
We hear a lot of people talking about like Thailand, Cambodia, as... next countries? And is it something that you see as well for California?
Speaker #0
I think Thailand is definitely on the rise. I think Vietnam could also be on the rise. And some of these countries have some really good things going for it. I'll give you an example of Vietnam because I'm very familiar with it. In Vietnam, you have 70% of the population is under 40 years old.
Speaker #1
Okay.
Speaker #0
The GDP growth is 6.5% a year. Yep. positive birth rates. You have increasing income, disposable income, very, very aspirational consumers. So I think over the long term, Vietnam is going to do very, very well. Now, the problem is it's hard to get wine in. So there are some issues that have nothing to do with the consumer. And so you have to sort of weigh those factors as well. Thailand reduced their taxes last year. wine. And I think it's also has a lot of opportunity. You know, Malaysia has some opportunity also, although it's a Muslim country to a large extent, same thing with Indonesia. But there's, but I think Southeast Asia is one part of the world that you will see growth. over the next five to 10 years.
Speaker #1
Yeah, I hear a lot of people talking about Indonesia as well. So I'm pretty sure that there's going to be something nice. Christopher, thank you very much for this discussion and for making me discover these four Chardonnay. I hope you like them. Yeah, honestly, I really like them. Very different profiles between them. Very different, yeah. So very different moments in which I could appreciate them, you know, some things more rookie, something more on the acid. So it's... Different moments of consumption, but definitely wines that I could drink by myself with friends, of course, and have pleasure doing this. So thank you very much for making me discover these wines. Thank you. I have three last questions. So the first one is, do you have a book recommendation for me? Maybe something on American wines, if you have, or in general.
Speaker #0
Yeah, there are a couple of books. So Elaine Chacon-Brown, who is a California wine expert, just published a book. this past year on California wines. I can send you the link to that, but that's a very good book. Also, Karen McNeil, who wrote The Wine Bible, has a very good section on California. So that's another book that I would say might be worth taking a look at.
Speaker #1
Great. For you guys, I'll put the link in the description if you want to discover Californian wines within writing. It's also a good way to deepen this knowledge. Do you have a recent tasting that you loved?
Speaker #0
You know, we're starting to do these Judgment of Paris events. And our first one will be tomorrow, actually, here in Hong Kong. And I'm very excited about it because we have all of the original Judgment of Paris wines. Not the old vintages, but current vintages. And then we also have a couple of other wines that are very important to have, like Robert Mondavi we have. And the reason we have Mondavi is that both Mike Gergich, who made the Montelena that won, and Warren Winiarski, who made the red wine that won, They both had worked at Robert Mondavi Wine before they went off on their own. So we have those wines. And then we have a list of wines that I'm calling modern California or wines that are not what people would expect. So we have like an Albarino from Napa.
Speaker #1
Okay.
Speaker #0
And we have some other wines like that that are very kind of unexpected but represent the current trend in California wines. So... I'm looking forward to that. It hasn't happened yet, but I'm quite sure it's going to be a success.
Speaker #1
I'll be there tomorrow as well. Excellent. Well, you can judge. Super happy to be with you tomorrow as well. And finally, who is the next person I should interview?
Speaker #0
Ah, the next person you should interview. I don't know. I think from California, I think, you know what you need to do? You need to come to California. And if you come to California, I will set you up with some fantastic interviews with winemakers, but also with some people like Elaine Brown. You would love talking to her because she's encyclopedic when it comes to California wines. And also Karen McNeil. Karen McNeil would be very good for you. They both live in Northern California. Karen is in Napa. Elaine lives in Sonoma. But they both have just endless knowledge. There's another woman named Kelly White. who's also encyclopedic on wine.
Speaker #1
Great. We'll make sure to make this happen. Good. 100% sorry. Marine was telling me that we have just a few minutes left together. No worries. No worries. But yeah, we'll make sure to come to California.
Speaker #0
I would love for you to come to California. So please let me know.
Speaker #1
100%.
Speaker #0
Give me a little bit of notice, and we'll make sure to set up an exceptional trip for you.
Speaker #1
We'll make this happen. Thank you very much. Thank you very much for doing this interview and for making me discover these wines. Good celebration of the California Wine Month. Thank you. In Hong Kong, we have French May, during which we have expositions and stuff about dance, and everything. But we also have the California Wine Month. It's coming up. It should be good. Thank you. For this, we'll put all the information in the description in case you want to attend some events, join things. Thanks again, and see you soon. Thank you. Nice, thank you very much. You have to get me a hat like that.

About Wine Makers Show: the wine podcast

What to Expect

In-Depth Interviews: Hear from top figures in the wine world, from renowned vintners to unsung heroes, as they share their experiences, challenges, and secrets to success.
Club Episodes: Explore specific wine topics, from production techniques to tasting tips, in focused, occasional deep dives.
A Journey of Discovery: Whether you're a novice or a connoisseur, we break down the complexities of wine to make it accessible and engaging.

Why Listen?

Connect with Us

Visit winemakersshow.com to get in touch or suggest a guest.
Email Antoine directly at winemakersshow@gmail.com.
Follow the journey on Instagram: @winemakersshow
Join the Academy and learn everything about wine

Tune in to Wine Makers Show and sip on the stories behind every bottle!

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

About Wine Makers Show: the wine podcast

What to Expect

In-Depth Interviews: Hear from top figures in the wine world, from renowned vintners to unsung heroes, as they share their experiences, challenges, and secrets to success.
Club Episodes: Explore specific wine topics, from production techniques to tasting tips, in focused, occasional deep dives.
A Journey of Discovery: Whether you're a novice or a connoisseur, we break down the complexities of wine to make it accessible and engaging.

Why Listen?

Connect with Us

Visit winemakersshow.com to get in touch or suggest a guest.
Email Antoine directly at winemakersshow@gmail.com.
Follow the journey on Instagram: @winemakersshow
Join the Academy and learn everything about wine

Tune in to Wine Makers Show and sip on the stories behind every bottle!

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

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