#119 - Petrus by the Glass with Cyrus Ho, Hotel Sommelier at Island Shangri-La Hong Kong | Wine Makers Show: the wine podcast

Description

What does it take to run the wine programme for eight restaurants inside one of Hong Kong's most storied hotel groups, and how do you earn a guest's trust for a US$600 pour of 1975 Petrus? We sat down inside Petrus itself, the flagship restaurant at Island Shangri-La Hong Kong, high above Pacific Place at the heart of the city's energy, to find out.

We're joined by Cyrus Ho, hotel sommelier for the Shangri-La Group in Hong Kong, who oversees the wine programme across all eight of the group's restaurants, from Cantonese fine dining to Japanese, French and everything in between.

Cyrus walks us through the week he spent doing nothing but refilling water glasses under his mentor's watch, the vintage mix-up that taught him never to skip showing a label, and the six-hour mountain drive into Yunnan that convinced him Chinese Chardonnay deserves serious attention.

Expect back-vintage Petrus by the glass, a side career as a certified tea master, and a clear-eyed read on why the next generation isn't reaching for wine. Tune in!

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Transcription

Speaker #0
Hi Cyrus.
Speaker #1
Yeah, hi.
Speaker #0
Thank you very much for welcoming us here. So we're in the Petrus restaurant in the dining room of Shangri-La, right?
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
So we are in the heart of Hong Kong. I think you guys, if you are on YouTube, you can see behind me that the location is absolutely perfect. So we are in just above Pacific Place, so really a center of Hong Kong and of the energy here. We'll talk about... Your career as a sommelier, we'll talk about the Shangri-La, of course, and about a lot of other things. But first, can you introduce yourself? Yeah,
Speaker #1
for sure. So, hello everyone, I'm Cyrus, Cyrus Ho. So, I'm now the hotel sommelier in Shangri-La Group. I'm taking for now, here we have eight restaurants. So, for all the wide programming in Shangri-La, I'm Shangri-La Group here. so We have pictures for the restaurant. And we have a different outlet. We have also Chinese cuisine, Japanese, everything. And also we have more wine for our banquet event teams also. So basically like this I'm doing. But we will talk more about this.
Speaker #0
Yeah, we'll talk more about these places. You always wanted to work in the wine industry. How did it come to you?
Speaker #1
It's not also work in the wine, but it's, of course, someone that guide me, and it's my mentor also. Actually, I start from my studying. I'm a potter design. I'm design that part. So when I graduate from the school, it's potter design. So, I started to, I didn't work in the design industry. So after that, I go in a restaurant to just serve in a hotel restaurant for a wait, part-time or something. I remember that one is Lingam, Lingam Hotel in Shamshajir, that one. So I started there as a part-time, as a waiter. At that moment, I didn't also anything. about the wine also so when I starting in part-time the manager said oh you are very nice because of that they are lacking of people but of course they are also nice they also teaching me anything also so I remember one of the guests ordering wine ordering a bottle of wine is a very until now I still very remember that bottle because it's a it's a New Zealand Guishamine It's a Guizhou Manet from New Zealand. I remember it's Unisoft, the purple label bottle. But now I cannot find that bottle. Even I want to import, I didn't find it. Yes, it's why I remember that, because it's a kind of a TV star in Hong Kong, and he ordered this bottle. Then when I was looking for that bottle, I don't know how to pronounce the... grape is a very long wine so after that but the wine is really good for us for entry level wine drinkers like off dry little bit sweet light, very good very proofing wine so after that I tried to study how to pronounce the grape then at that moment I jumped to the wine I studied in study level YC level 2 then after that level 3 and go with the CMS certified level level then to start so now I think it's in this industry as a souvenir I think it's 10 years almost
Speaker #0
12 I think 10 to 12 years like this so it was like really random that you stumbled into wine actually you were not supposed to do this career in the wine industry yes kind of yes actually
Speaker #1
It's not the... planned to do but uh yeah of course i i found that of course it's some you know that some designer always have the manner uh why are you changing my design everything so it's also that's also to me that's why i quit the designer
Speaker #0
so you said that you you went through the different level of wict and then of satisfying master sommelier yeah um how did you How did you study for this? Were you by yourself or were you with the staff of the hotel and with people helping you in this?
Speaker #1
Then now in this point I need to talk about another person, he's called Johan. Johan Josslin is a master sommelier. So actually 10 years ago... I'm working in a restaurant purchase 10 years ago.
Speaker #0
Okay.
Speaker #1
I have here, I just come back for six months to take on all the program for the ancient. For my career as a really as a so many a title, I start in a restaurant purchase and who is the one that hire me is Johan. So Johan, I, I, I fairly liquid, kind of, more early, so many, than, Johan. When in Hong Kong as a master sommelier in Shangri-La, he hired us many of our local sommelier. Then now it's very good point that we can work with him, learn a lot from him. Because as a French people, as a French, it's not much like Johan that willing to teach you everything, talk to you about why everything he's really really good. mentor for me also. In Chinese, we call her Sifu. It's called a master. So even I get married, I also, Johan is also in my part of my, like the Chinese culture for the LDD, we are a couple, we need to have a tea with our Sifu. So he is the one like this. So I starting, I starting here. For SSL Mania Then I study with Johan always Teach me Everything So When I go Join here I'm Only wise at Level 3 Okay Something To start with Then after that Because of Johan here Also then I join Ascent for the CMS And step by step Level So Now Now is Yeah just like this for in Shangri-La group in West Lung Patrus I'm always almost three to half years in West Lung Patrus then after that Johan promoted me to the current Shangri-La to take in on the current Shangri-La program for three years three to half years something and after that when Johan left Hong Kong Johan left Hong Kong for one to two years Then also I left to Schengen. After that, I go with the Fulton. Okay. The Fulton Ocean Park one for three and a half years. And now back to Island Schengen for six months. So Island Schengen is like after 10 years, I'm back here. And now I'm kind of a little bit higher position. So... what I feel here in Shangri-La, then what I can do, what Johan thinking at that moment, always very amazing. So like this basically.
Speaker #0
What are the things that you learn at the beginning of your career? So you talk about Johan Jusland teaching you and being your kind of master at the beginning. What are the basics that you learned at that point? and that like surprised you the most or that are the most important for like I'm thinking about someone who is beginning his career as a sommelier and listening to us or watching us what should this person have in mind when starting this this new job and this journey yeah
Speaker #1
when I still remember that the first two weeks when I joined as a sommelier the only thing I can do from Johan is that okay you You're pouring the water. You're pouring the water. Whole week. Whole week. The first week I didn't touch any of wine. Only bottled water. So you see for the midnight also, we have a lawn also facing the table. Not much table. But she said, you refill for the water because water is the most basic for the drinks. everything and also the first thing that for the service to do everything good if you see the all the gas bottle the water is left and half you will feel it just top up but still very busy and in this pond you have a turn tea table you walk around it's only talking talk for the water and i think this is one of the part to really touching the base for the surface. Then after that, when we touch more wine, you know more about wine, then the gases come here is also for the wine. Because in Patrus, I think I can feel it's kind of a culture. That you can come and taste many different wines, Balagas or French wine, very deep to this, that one. When you're introducing your baby, when you have the wine, then introducing the guest, it's just like introducing the baby to my guest. So this is the passion and the guests really really want to hear it. And when you want to learn more about the story, then this is also feedback from the guests. Then always having this passion to introduce the wine to the guests. I really love it. I really really love to do it. Because when they're happy, they're all really good.
Speaker #0
So you start one week only water. Yes. At the end of this week, do you like... Are you disappointed? You know, you're like, what is this job? I'm just pouring water.
Speaker #1
I'm supposed to do it. No, I didn't. Because Johan is here also. And because that moment is very entry-level of my so many years of knowledge. So Johan asking me always to learn from the boat and always asking questions. It's very good to work with Johan, but it's also very hard. As you know, he always working, when you like opening the white bottle, and suddenly Johan come and he will ask you questions. Like which quick from this summe from the loha? Answer me. Few second, if you no-no, after that, after the lunch operation, you study. After that, after that, and then another dinner I will ask you again. When the dinner operation, I will ask you again. So it's like push, It's also very happy because I think Johan knows that I'm the guy that always needs some push So he's pushing me very very hard
Speaker #0
You said before that when you're presenting the wine to someone It's like presenting a baby, you want to take care of this Can you describe as a sommelier how do you present a bottle to people? What's the process that you should follow?
Speaker #1
I think for the first, we will start with the wine list. So we come with the wine list. I always try to talk with the guests. That's why. Because for the taste, it's very personal. I need to know which part of the taste from the guests. Then I can recommend some wine. So it's very important for me to know that how... all mostly the guests tasting because someone likes dry someone likes a little bit sweet but of course the guests some kind of a guest they want something sweet they didn't actually want something sweet it's just like more maybe hints of a sweet in my mind it's like more fruity more fruity because at the end if you take a really sweet wine they don't like it always like this so I will ask really really how is their flavor like it, then I introduce the wine, then to make sure that the wine that I introduce to them is really fit for them. So we take the wine, so from the cellar, we have a wine bucket. The wine is just lying down there. Then we take the bottle to the guest, and I see how is the, just checking for the label. Then after that, we open it first and the tasting. Then when the guest tasting the wine, then we can something, feedback, story. Then we can just first pour, then we can talk about the story like this.
Speaker #0
Yeah, so there are a few things from that, but I think it's interesting. I've seen a lot of people asking, why do sommelier show the bottle before opening it?
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
And so the answer is basically so that you can know. You can confirm that the label is the one that you ordered. Yeah, of course. Of course it's open,
Speaker #1
purchase 05. I'm not sure that I'm correct or not. We show the bottle to you, purchase 05, yes, confirm. It's also like this. Yeah, to show the label, then... Because you know,
Speaker #0
for some guests, it can be a bit impressing sometimes or they don't know why people are doing this. Oh, really? Yeah, I saw people asking online what...
Speaker #1
why do you need to show me the label?
Speaker #0
What should I do when somebody shows me the label? Just like confirm that it's the right one. Just confirm.
Speaker #1
Because sometimes, I guess, they didn't open the white list. He just verbally tell me what bottle they want. So some kinds of that, we also always need to confirm. It's good for showing the label to the guests in case... Sometimes it really happens. I think when we started... I think 9 years ago when we started, I was still that young. Then I forgot to show the label to the guests. And at the end, I think the vintage changed. So, I think I remember it was 2015. So the gas bottle was in 2015, but the vintage has changed to 2016 already. I didn't show the label to the guests, and of course the vintage sometimes changes, but of course they also matter to some of the guests, because also the vintage changes a lot, from 2015 to 2016. So the guests were really upset about it. And after that, we just refused to serve the 16. Because when I took the bottle to the guests to taste, they said, Oh, why is it 16? Why isn't it so major? So it's always good to be certain.
Speaker #0
Always good to confirm. So you told me that you have eight restaurants in this hotel. Do you have a specific wine list for each restaurant or it's shared wine list?
Speaker #1
No, we do. This is my strategy also. The strategy that if you only have individual wine list, typically it's more white butter guys. And also a small list for the butter bottle depends on the restaurant. It's like if I go, if I put in the Summer Palace of a Chinese restaurant, then we will be more focusing on Bodo. And we have Ming Pai Feilin, it's our new restaurant for food and cuisine. Then we try more Lin Sha, it's a lot more new region of China wine. Even the Badagas, more focusing on the... China why but the gas and so of course there's a lot of Japanese in the just you're focusing on the French but also more we often more more high expectation experience so that's why we offer also first growth for but the gas even we offer pictures by the gas pictures by the glass yeah Oh,
Speaker #0
that's fun. Here?
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
In the restaurant?
Speaker #1
Yeah, yeah. We are serving Patrice05 and a month ago I also offered many of a few lists of Patrice back vintage also 65, 68 for the Balagas.
Speaker #0
Patrice 68 by the glass?
Speaker #1
No 75.
Speaker #0
75 by the glass?
Speaker #1
75. That's crazy. How much is the glass? 98. Wow. Of course it's a little bit money. Of course it's... I remember it's 5,000 something for a small gas.
Speaker #0
Okay, okay. So it's...
Speaker #1
We're tasting Porsche.
Speaker #0
It's still expensive, but... So 5,000 Hong Kong dollars. So it's like 500 US, 600 US.
Speaker #1
It's a small gas tasting Porsche, so...
Speaker #0
But it's okay. It's okay. It's the opportunity to taste.
Speaker #1
I also have the wildfights for the pictures. 65, 89 and 05. Oh, wow.
Speaker #0
I need to come to that one day, actually.
Speaker #1
But now we sold out. We sold out. We only left, we sold the 75 and 89 also. So now I just keep the 05 for the Balacast for purchase. And we also, because our name is Western Purchase, so we have a full list of, not a full list, but a little more vintage list of purchase collection.
Speaker #0
And so what's the relationship between you this restaurant and Petrus. Is there a story behind that? Or is it just like a cool name?
Speaker #1
No, it's a no. It's a no because it's a long-term goal story because I'm here for the first 35 almost years. I joined only 10 years. So the story that I know is also heard from people. So we didn't have any connection with Petrus. And it's our owner that decided, okay, we have in Island Shangri-La, we have a restaurant produced in Carling Shangri-La before we called. restaurant Margo. I love the wine so if you using the wine name to the to eliminate the restaurant so here is much purchase and that I can't say it's Margo but the Margo wine restaurant now is because we now didn't they didn't continue so now it's called Italian restaurant is Angiolini so that's why now it's but the purchase still keep here okay okay so no no directing
Speaker #0
but you still have an extensive extensive presence of Petrus wine.
Speaker #1
Yeah yeah because we are we are still still uh we didn't have any collection but because of the same name that's why we're doing the collection of the pictures.
Speaker #0
Okay so I will come to taste the Petrus by the glass. I will come back for that. Marine is smiling behind the camera but I will be the only one to taste it. So you have different wine list for every restaurant in the hotel. How many references do you have, you would say?
Speaker #1
We have now 2,500 labels.
Speaker #0
2,500. Okay, so it's...
Speaker #1
It's like a Bible.
Speaker #0
It starts to be something. Yeah,
Speaker #1
Later I will show you the purchase wine list. It's like we call it Bible. But it's not that much with $2,500 only. We aiming to do more. But especially if we can control for the stock because you can see everywhere. Yeah. Also wide seller. Now we have a more large seller inside there also. But the purchase wireless is also as master wireless. So if the guest asks for the master wine in another restaurant, we also present the Bible. But besides the Bible, we also have individual smalls from the restaurant.
Speaker #0
For the atmosphere of the restaurant. Are you the one managing the wines that are present? Like, do you have new references coming, some that you stop, that type of thing? Are you the one deciding this? Yes, that's true.
Speaker #1
Now, yes.
Speaker #0
And how do you, like, what's your perspective on that? Because I guess for places like this one, I guess you are like kind of obliged to have all the classics, like all the Bordeaux first growth, the big Saint-Emilion, the big Pomerol, the nice Burgundy wines as well, like all the classics.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
I guess it's critical for you because the type of guests that come here expect that type of wines.
Speaker #1
Yeah, true.
Speaker #0
I guess you... Do you also like try to find new wines to put on the list? Maybe smaller estates, maybe less well-known?
Speaker #1
Gourard Champagne. Gourard Champagne, yeah. Yeah, we do.
Speaker #0
Gourard Champagne?
Speaker #1
We do, Even more young vintage, especially now that you're talking about the Burgundy now. So especially the Burgundy now is very, very hard to find. So if you buy now, only buy the recent vintage is 2022 and 2023. So... It's not yet ready but of course we want a little bit back vintage right? And the guests always looking for the back vintage. It's not that back vintage but it's 2010 something or 2005 or so. We have many stores before but we sold a lot. So I think the brand new now is like it's quite hard to do for the wildest. But I think now I'm... During like a five years plan, five years plan that we try to buy a lot of recent vintage, then we storage it in Shangri-La. So after that, after five years, it's almost ready to drink. It's like more harvesting. That moment after five years, we all try always looking for five years after to as a brand new recent vintage. We bought a lot of the recent vintage and we stay in here. Then I aim to harvest after five years. So we make pink pulver or drinking. We sell very a lot after five years. So I think this is now the surgery that I do in Burundi. The Bordeaux, yes. But we still can buy a lot of back vintage, right? So it's still okay.
Speaker #0
Yeah, because it's complicated for... such places because you want to have uh
Speaker #1
ready to drink wines because you should serve them so actually ready to drink but vintage recent vintage and small region but a very interesting thing we always do we always love to introduce something interesting why as a so many airline to the guests but some of the guests is coming is only looking for the big label so we we for the one is why we have a definite that two money new references. Because we need to fulfill all of the guest criteria. Some big label, small region, new region, and new wine, something also. Even that we are trying to explore many of the regions from China also. Yunnan, Linsha. I just come back from Yunnan.
Speaker #0
Okay, nice.
Speaker #1
Really good.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
I come back from Aoyun, as you know. so another
Speaker #0
Muxin and another Shaolin it's really really nice yeah Chinese wines is one of the focus that we have so we've only been to Shandong for now okay
Speaker #1
Shandong is oh so you go with the Lafite one yes so we went to Long Dai and to
Speaker #0
Runaway Cow okay just in front yeah which is super interesting and the region is very that is good also Wine is good and the region is cool because they have a big agriculture background, you know, with the apples. And so it's fun to see how they transfer this knowledge to vineyards. But yeah, Yunnan, we want to go, Ningxia, Xinjiang as well.
Speaker #1
Have you been there yet?
Speaker #0
No, no, but I would love to go. But one of the things that we witness is that Chinese wines are super interesting. And the level of quality starts to be really, really high. Yeah. you have you have very good wines and good wines from China yeah but how do your guests feel about this and how do they react because they're like the thing we see from Europe and the US the content that that we do is that people are a bit like they hesitate and you know they have a bad image of change and so they're like no but change once reason you know we have some and my point of view is different is actually chinese wine starts to be very good still a bit expensive but very good and interesting to to discover so how is your perspective and how do you in the end sell these wines to people here uh because it's a like if they don't want to try you won't sell sell them so how do you generate this we do by tasting yeah we do by tasting So, yeah, it's quite hard.
Speaker #1
But for us, I didn't see and we really don't like China wine in Shangri-La yet. But they always find, even when we do the bright tasting, they always find an interesting point that, oh, because they never think it's from China. They always, like, if I'm serving, our wine is like a bottle. The Chardonnay is like a Burgundy Burgundy style They're always doing Very very very well But of course we need to pick When we built the Lanshan It's still many many wines It's a new region So the wine is only 20 years old It's very very young As a wine So they actually In fact they need more time They need more fuel 10 to 20 years to develop the fine but you need to wait for us as a so many I picked the best fuel from Lin Sha back to Hong Kong from Yunnan back to Hong Kong so the guest trying tasting here is the one that I think is
Speaker #0
top three than let them to have putting on the list so it's not that much problem because they know us and they know me also they won't they know they know me I won't introduce something shit very disappointing things to them so so every time they they really need so many to introduce the wife So when the wine has some in this, it's really good to try. They really need to try also. So sometimes I do bright tasting. So guess what is that? The liver, liver correct.
Speaker #1
Yeah, for Chinese wines, it's complicated to be correct because they still don't have, I think, compulsory grapes that they need to use. Yeah, they have chrysanthemum,
Speaker #0
capsaicin,
Speaker #1
sometimes they have chrysanthemum.
Speaker #0
Marcelon from Linxia and now they have Ausha, also really doing really good. Respectively from Yunnan, they are very very high altitude, 2,300 meters in the vineyard. Really good. You can see the microchromic is so amazing. Last week when I've been there, suddenly it's raining. suddenly it's sunny sunny wow so it's a we're driving from Yunnan we call the city of
Speaker #1
Lijiang it's a very it's kind of a large city already but we still live six hours from Lijiang to the winery six hours that's why like when I when I talk about Yunnan to people and I say I want to go discover the region they're like Are you ready to do some cars? Because you're going to drive a lot if you go there.
Speaker #0
Yes. And I strongly recommend you to hire a driver. Don't drive by yourself. Because the road is quite dangerous. Sometimes there's some walk falling.
Speaker #1
But we won't go to Yunnan next week then. Oh, yeah? No, no, no. I think we need to organize something.
Speaker #0
Yeah. But if you...
Speaker #1
go to yunnan you will uh having a lot of noodles the rice noodle every every every morning i like this i'm okay with this i prefer the the egg sandwich but i can go for rice noodles as well they only have noodles yeah i'm perfectly integrated to hong kong now i i take a egg sandwich okay and uh ice lemon tea so good good good so that's perfect you if if I'm a let's say I'm a young winemaker like I recently took over an estate or whatever how can I try to reference my wines in places like yours now
Speaker #0
because as a hotel you only can buy some wine from the distributor so you only buy from distribution yeah it's just the policy from the group So we almost left directly from the gore. But of course, there's some domain that we can have some extra toll. Yeah. But for the small gore, actually, when I taste it, if I really like it, then I will ask my friend to consider importing to Hong Kong. Then I can have it in the use. So... Have you been to some wine expo in May sometimes?
Speaker #1
VinExpo? Yeah, we were at VinExpo.
Speaker #0
So the VinExpo, many of the little wineries also, they're also looking for a distributor in Hong Kong. So it's kind of this event, they can have a distributor. When I taste the wine, I really like it. So when asking again, which distributor in Hong Kong, they said no, then we will...
Speaker #1
they try to find the distributor in Hong Kong but once they have the distributor we normally we import from them okay and okay so for someone developing a wine estate it's still very interesting to come
Speaker #0
to see you so that you can try the wines and have feedback about this yeah they always come to us and having a little bit carrying a little bit sample then to taste yeah but better let me know early
Speaker #1
I can arrange in the time so okay um You said that sometimes you do blind tastings for clients. Yeah. I'm actually interested to understand the demographics and the expectations from the clients. So what type of people visit the restaurant here? What do they expect in the wine? Like, how do they consume wine, basically?
Speaker #0
Yeah. Because we also have tasting for the wine pairing. We always have an offering wine pairing on the menu. So, of course, many guests, they also order in the bottle, but when there's some single diner or two of them, they will normally have a pairing. If they don't have any ideas for the wine, then they will join to the wine pairing. So when I say it's a bright tasting, it only works for the wine pairing. But I won't do it every course. Only one to two wines for the wine pairing. We will see if the guest has a little bit of knowledge, then we will do the bright tasting. Because if the guest doesn't have any knowledge, no point to do the bite tasting but we will also see which guest is willing to have a little bit of fun because the bite tasting is a little bit fun it's no aim to get someone but just a little bit fun like this so we will see which guest and then we open the bite tasting when
Speaker #1
we were discussing just before the start of the podcast we talked about the fact that you are a tea master as well oh yeah so you you told me that you're very entry level in the for me is yeah in the thing but i think you still have better knowledge than me can you tell me more about what is t master and how did you start uh start this as well yeah
Speaker #0
t master is uh uh the one that i i exploring uh last year and when i traveled back to uh uh mainland uh the guangzhou to having uh the exam They have a tea master. The tea master is basically doing the things, the processing to having the tea, how to do a good way with different kind of tea because we have five to six type of tea. Then different tea, they have a different way to having the tea. So for the black tea, they... we're enquiring more high temperature the green tea a little bit low so the tea must start basically to doing to using the right way to having the tea in a different kind of tea they also have a tea judge then to judging which tea the tea leaf is good or not the level of the tea level yeah so why I'm going with the tea because I think tea is very very similar But, um... to the wine my personally think yes because they always having a little bit like similar like tak kwa also the single vinaigre the single pot of the tea leaf everything they also have this kind of things and I always if you know about the tea the poor the some of the little 5 to 10 years aging also then when you having um the poor tea, they need to rinse off the water a few times. For me, I think this process is like decantation. So it's really, really similar. So that's why I'm trying to explain the tea. And the year before, my stomach was a little bit health problem. So I don't want to drink much wine when I'm off. So actually, I'm now when I'm off. At my home, I drink tea. A little bit. Sorry, I said so many. But I drink a little bit of tea. Yeah. For my health. So that's why I explain about tea. It's very, very similar. And also, I think the tea sales and also the tea experience is now more important in Hong Kong. Especially now, many of teenagers, they didn't drink wine, they drink more, consume more local beverage. I think this is the problem now. As I can see, I can feel it. That's why I'm studying for the T. And you can see that two years, the sparkling tea is very, very on fire. The Saito, they're doing very well. And that's why I go with the tea. I think I need to have some more tea knowledge. That's why I go to Tea Mastery.
Speaker #1
And yeah, so you made the transition. But my next question was, do you see the rise of non-alcoholic beverage in the Shangri-La? Yeah, I see. We also have a non-alcohol pairing. Okay.
Speaker #0
Yeah, non-alcohol pairing. And in Switzerland,
Speaker #1
it's mainly tea?
Speaker #0
We have tea, we have grape juice, we have some mocktail. Ah,
Speaker #1
mocktail as well? Yeah.
Speaker #0
Yeah, we ask our bar manager, then we make some mocktail for purchase. Then we have a recipe, we just follow the recipe to do it for SM Hotel. Then we offering something special choice like sparkling tea to start with. If you're drinking while you have sparkling tea, then the one that's this to you may be having the champagne. So we also have a little bit bubble to start with. Then the main course we have, of course, we're using a lot for Alan Miok. for the grape juice, you know, the Merlot grape juice and the China grape juice. And the motel is basically making from that grape juice and to develop more flavor like this. Yeah. So in Shangri-La, we're also exploring our own cobalt tea with the real tea master. In Ming Pa, we have the real tea master. Then she's making the one that, the cobalt tea for us also.
Speaker #1
Okay.
Speaker #0
So it's good. I think it's, yeah, I saw the trend a little bit. As you can also, I'm not sure you can feel it or not, the teenagers now.
Speaker #1
Yeah, they don't drink that. They didn't drink wine.
Speaker #0
And I think it's part of responsibility for the one that, because some kind of, I think maybe they feel that wine is very hard to. content because you need to have some little bit basic knowledge then you need to then how to know to pick in the wine so the new generation they now not ordering many of wine maybe beer so I can see that more less than less now the young generation drinking the wine I think this is the problem And I think need to more going out to introducing wine and let them to have a little bit basic knowledge. So I always having, I always holding some tasting cards. I think it's the souvenir now, it's holding the tasting cards to the customer or friend, everything. We can, we just... having a little bit entry-level price, let them to taste the wine, then maybe making some friends, just casualing, then I think to bring the interest for them. 100%. Unless you can see five years, five and ten years after, no one drinking wine. Yeah. Then the whole business is caught up.
Speaker #1
Yeah, 100%. I think that's critical. That's also why we are doing this podcast. So I hope you guys enjoy it. Thank you very much for this interview. It makes me very curious to also see this non-alcoholic pairing. Actually, I once interviewed a sommelier in Paris and he was doing non-alcoholic beverage pairing as well. And he told me something that was very interesting. He told me, when I do this. non-alcoholic beverage i want the guy having the alcoholic beverage to be jealous of the other one you know because sometimes because sometimes when you like sometimes the choice of non-alcoholic beverage is very bad you know and oh yeah yeah you know what i mean like you're in a you're in an amazing restaurant and either you have wines either you have like bad juice or or sparkling water basically which is uh sparkling water is nice i love it but but you know what i mean like uh the the difference with uh with wine is crazy and so this guy was like no no i want to work with tea yeah with a great quality juice with that type of things to build something so that the person having the non-alcoholic beverage ends up very happy and having really like a good tasting experience um and a good uh yeah good uh good experience between the food and the drinks and i think that that's very important because this is also how you can have people realizing that um drinking good things impact your food and then your food impacts what you drink and i think when you realize that you're more into okay let's try this wine with this food And then you know It's also the First step into Having quality stuff And Terroir based stuff Like you know what I mean Like Good product Yeah I think it's important And I think now The people like
Speaker #0
Still Having the mindset That drinking wine is A very bad thing Not a positive thing That's why They always drink When we're talking about Drinking They always Got drunk La la la It's partying and all So. But for me, I think for the wine, it's more like elegant things. Yeah,
Speaker #1
and you can have like a few.
Speaker #0
But we need to teach them, not teach them, but introduce this part of wine things to them. In their mindsets, it's drinking alcohol, drunk, party. So I think it's one of very hard job as a sommelier for coming 10 years. to doing introducing wine to them to the public and very important thing I think everyone every so many need to do something because I really see it's a significant job for the people drinking wine
Speaker #1
100% Cyrus thank you very much for this it was a great discussion learned a lot about you and about this place I have three last questions you the first one is do you have a book recommendation for me it's definitely now
Speaker #0
Inside Burgundy okay because yeah I just I in April I bought Inside Burgundy the second edition from Burgundy so I look at it oh my amazing amazing book it's an amazing book very deep very deep very detailed on every region of Burgundy who is holding the headers hmm you This is a Bible for me.
Speaker #1
I will put the link in description, but it's indeed one of the most beautiful books you can have in wine. So I will put the link to Inside Burgundy in description. Do you have a recent wine that you tasted and you loved?
Speaker #0
Yes. It's the one that Yunnan, from Yunnan. It's called Muxin. Muxin. M-U-X-I-N. Muxin. Chardonnay. 2020 is 22 from... Ma Chou is a China winemaker but he is the one that having the winemaking a lot of year in Burgundy many of Burgundy winery then he back to United and starting his own business the first vintage is I think only two to three vintage have in recently in the market, but the 2022, 2023, amazing. I think I can say that for me, I've been to Linxia, Yunnan, things and trying a lot of Chardonnay. That Chardonnay, the Muxin, I can say that is the best in, I think I really can say it's a top one.
Speaker #1
Okay.
Speaker #0
If the Chardonnay in China, from China, from China, really, really good. He make Of course it's a Bulgarian style And And The way that He making the wine Like I think it's like A Coton Souramon Okay It's really amazing And very high attitude And And the background is When you When you're having the wine That high attitude Actually it's Many many of Hard thing to do Because many of problem
Speaker #1
Hmm
Speaker #0
And you can imagine that even that we travel to that one, we need six hours. So the delivery, one-way king, everything is very hard. It's very hard. The wine is really, really good.
Speaker #1
Okay, we'll try to find a bottle somewhere.
Speaker #0
We'll try to visit them. We'll see them there. Oh, really good. It's one of the best trials I've tried. A really, really top one. I can say it.
Speaker #1
Great.
Speaker #0
I'm now keep saying that. The musician, no choice. Really good, really good.
Speaker #1
We'll try to find a bottle and go see them. And finally, last question is, who?
Speaker #0
is the next person I should interview yeah of course it's only the guy it's Johan Johan Jossonen master souvenir and now he's in Cary Wise the head of Farnwise alright if you can have a podcast with him I think it's really really good we'll try to organize this podcast with Johan you may need two hours if
Speaker #1
he answers to my email someday we will definitely be happy to have him on the podcast I sent him a few messages you let me know I can text him text him for me because he's not answering my messages so I would love for you to do it thank you very much Cyrus it was an amazing discussion if you guys like this podcast don't forget to like it subscribe to the channel share this episode to people who need to drink Petrus by the glass here come discover the Shangri-La and the restaurants you will see the view is amazing the place is really nice and the wine list seems amazing and maybe the most seen by the guys we are available next week and yeah great Chinese wine available by Douglas so that's amazing Cyrus thanks again thank you so much and see you soon thank you Paul bye bye guys thank you thank you it was great
Speaker #0
Thank you for letting me know.

About Wine Makers Show: the wine podcast

Join us on Wine Makers Show, the podcast that uncorks the world of wine! Hosted by Antoine, a passionate entrepreneur and wine enthusiast, this show dives deep into the stories, expertise, and journeys of the people who make wine extraordinary: winemakers, sommeliers, vintners, and industry trailblazers.

What to Expect

In-Depth Interviews: Hear from top figures in the wine world, from renowned vintners to unsung heroes, as they share their experiences, challenges, and secrets to success.
Club Episodes: Explore specific wine topics, from production techniques to tasting tips, in focused, occasional deep dives.
A Journey of Discovery: Whether you're a novice or a connoisseur, we break down the complexities of wine to make it accessible and engaging.

Why Listen?

Wine Makers Show is your gateway to understanding wine like never before. With a focus on storytelling and sharing, Antoine brings you closer to the heart of the wine industry, one conversation at a time. Expect authentic discussions, insider knowledge, and a celebration of the craft and culture of wine.

Connect with Us

Visit winemakersshow.com to get in touch or suggest a guest.
Email Antoine directly at winemakersshow@gmail.com.
Follow the journey on Instagram: @winemakersshow
Join the Academy and learn everything about wine

Tune in to Wine Makers Show and sip on the stories behind every bottle!

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

About Wine Makers Show: the wine podcast

What to Expect

In-Depth Interviews: Hear from top figures in the wine world, from renowned vintners to unsung heroes, as they share their experiences, challenges, and secrets to success.
Club Episodes: Explore specific wine topics, from production techniques to tasting tips, in focused, occasional deep dives.
A Journey of Discovery: Whether you're a novice or a connoisseur, we break down the complexities of wine to make it accessible and engaging.

Why Listen?

Connect with Us

Visit winemakersshow.com to get in touch or suggest a guest.
Email Antoine directly at winemakersshow@gmail.com.
Follow the journey on Instagram: @winemakersshow
Join the Academy and learn everything about wine

Tune in to Wine Makers Show and sip on the stories behind every bottle!

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Description

Expect back-vintage Petrus by the glass, a side career as a certified tea master, and a clear-eyed read on why the next generation isn't reaching for wine. Tune in!

▬▬ 🎁 GIFTS 🎁 ▬▬

📚 Inside Burgundy, by Jasper Morris

🍷 Discover the Island Shangri-La Hong Kong

🍽️ Discover the Restaurant Petrus

🎁 Get your wine essentials on our shop: a curated selection of wine accessories, posters and much more

🗺️ Get the best French Wine Map: as information as decorative

▬▬ ⭐️ ABOUT ⭐️ ▬▬

ALCOHOL ABUSE IS DANGEROUS FOUR YOUR HEALTH. CONSUME IN MODERATION.

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Transcription

Speaker #0
Hi Cyrus.
Speaker #1
Yeah, hi.
Speaker #0
Thank you very much for welcoming us here. So we're in the Petrus restaurant in the dining room of Shangri-La, right?
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
So we are in the heart of Hong Kong. I think you guys, if you are on YouTube, you can see behind me that the location is absolutely perfect. So we are in just above Pacific Place, so really a center of Hong Kong and of the energy here. We'll talk about... Your career as a sommelier, we'll talk about the Shangri-La, of course, and about a lot of other things. But first, can you introduce yourself? Yeah,
Speaker #1
for sure. So, hello everyone, I'm Cyrus, Cyrus Ho. So, I'm now the hotel sommelier in Shangri-La Group. I'm taking for now, here we have eight restaurants. So, for all the wide programming in Shangri-La, I'm Shangri-La Group here. so We have pictures for the restaurant. And we have a different outlet. We have also Chinese cuisine, Japanese, everything. And also we have more wine for our banquet event teams also. So basically like this I'm doing. But we will talk more about this.
Speaker #0
Yeah, we'll talk more about these places. You always wanted to work in the wine industry. How did it come to you?
Speaker #1
It's not also work in the wine, but it's, of course, someone that guide me, and it's my mentor also. Actually, I start from my studying. I'm a potter design. I'm design that part. So when I graduate from the school, it's potter design. So, I started to, I didn't work in the design industry. So after that, I go in a restaurant to just serve in a hotel restaurant for a wait, part-time or something. I remember that one is Lingam, Lingam Hotel in Shamshajir, that one. So I started there as a part-time, as a waiter. At that moment, I didn't also anything. about the wine also so when I starting in part-time the manager said oh you are very nice because of that they are lacking of people but of course they are also nice they also teaching me anything also so I remember one of the guests ordering wine ordering a bottle of wine is a very until now I still very remember that bottle because it's a it's a New Zealand Guishamine It's a Guizhou Manet from New Zealand. I remember it's Unisoft, the purple label bottle. But now I cannot find that bottle. Even I want to import, I didn't find it. Yes, it's why I remember that, because it's a kind of a TV star in Hong Kong, and he ordered this bottle. Then when I was looking for that bottle, I don't know how to pronounce the... grape is a very long wine so after that but the wine is really good for us for entry level wine drinkers like off dry little bit sweet light, very good very proofing wine so after that I tried to study how to pronounce the grape then at that moment I jumped to the wine I studied in study level YC level 2 then after that level 3 and go with the CMS certified level level then to start so now I think it's in this industry as a souvenir I think it's 10 years almost
Speaker #0
12 I think 10 to 12 years like this so it was like really random that you stumbled into wine actually you were not supposed to do this career in the wine industry yes kind of yes actually
Speaker #1
It's not the... planned to do but uh yeah of course i i found that of course it's some you know that some designer always have the manner uh why are you changing my design everything so it's also that's also to me that's why i quit the designer
Speaker #0
so you said that you you went through the different level of wict and then of satisfying master sommelier yeah um how did you How did you study for this? Were you by yourself or were you with the staff of the hotel and with people helping you in this?
Speaker #1
Then now in this point I need to talk about another person, he's called Johan. Johan Josslin is a master sommelier. So actually 10 years ago... I'm working in a restaurant purchase 10 years ago.
Speaker #0
Okay.
Speaker #1
I have here, I just come back for six months to take on all the program for the ancient. For my career as a really as a so many a title, I start in a restaurant purchase and who is the one that hire me is Johan. So Johan, I, I, I fairly liquid, kind of, more early, so many, than, Johan. When in Hong Kong as a master sommelier in Shangri-La, he hired us many of our local sommelier. Then now it's very good point that we can work with him, learn a lot from him. Because as a French people, as a French, it's not much like Johan that willing to teach you everything, talk to you about why everything he's really really good. mentor for me also. In Chinese, we call her Sifu. It's called a master. So even I get married, I also, Johan is also in my part of my, like the Chinese culture for the LDD, we are a couple, we need to have a tea with our Sifu. So he is the one like this. So I starting, I starting here. For SSL Mania Then I study with Johan always Teach me Everything So When I go Join here I'm Only wise at Level 3 Okay Something To start with Then after that Because of Johan here Also then I join Ascent for the CMS And step by step Level So Now Now is Yeah just like this for in Shangri-La group in West Lung Patrus I'm always almost three to half years in West Lung Patrus then after that Johan promoted me to the current Shangri-La to take in on the current Shangri-La program for three years three to half years something and after that when Johan left Hong Kong Johan left Hong Kong for one to two years Then also I left to Schengen. After that, I go with the Fulton. Okay. The Fulton Ocean Park one for three and a half years. And now back to Island Schengen for six months. So Island Schengen is like after 10 years, I'm back here. And now I'm kind of a little bit higher position. So... what I feel here in Shangri-La, then what I can do, what Johan thinking at that moment, always very amazing. So like this basically.
Speaker #0
What are the things that you learn at the beginning of your career? So you talk about Johan Jusland teaching you and being your kind of master at the beginning. What are the basics that you learned at that point? and that like surprised you the most or that are the most important for like I'm thinking about someone who is beginning his career as a sommelier and listening to us or watching us what should this person have in mind when starting this this new job and this journey yeah
Speaker #1
when I still remember that the first two weeks when I joined as a sommelier the only thing I can do from Johan is that okay you You're pouring the water. You're pouring the water. Whole week. Whole week. The first week I didn't touch any of wine. Only bottled water. So you see for the midnight also, we have a lawn also facing the table. Not much table. But she said, you refill for the water because water is the most basic for the drinks. everything and also the first thing that for the service to do everything good if you see the all the gas bottle the water is left and half you will feel it just top up but still very busy and in this pond you have a turn tea table you walk around it's only talking talk for the water and i think this is one of the part to really touching the base for the surface. Then after that, when we touch more wine, you know more about wine, then the gases come here is also for the wine. Because in Patrus, I think I can feel it's kind of a culture. That you can come and taste many different wines, Balagas or French wine, very deep to this, that one. When you're introducing your baby, when you have the wine, then introducing the guest, it's just like introducing the baby to my guest. So this is the passion and the guests really really want to hear it. And when you want to learn more about the story, then this is also feedback from the guests. Then always having this passion to introduce the wine to the guests. I really love it. I really really love to do it. Because when they're happy, they're all really good.
Speaker #0
So you start one week only water. Yes. At the end of this week, do you like... Are you disappointed? You know, you're like, what is this job? I'm just pouring water.
Speaker #1
I'm supposed to do it. No, I didn't. Because Johan is here also. And because that moment is very entry-level of my so many years of knowledge. So Johan asking me always to learn from the boat and always asking questions. It's very good to work with Johan, but it's also very hard. As you know, he always working, when you like opening the white bottle, and suddenly Johan come and he will ask you questions. Like which quick from this summe from the loha? Answer me. Few second, if you no-no, after that, after the lunch operation, you study. After that, after that, and then another dinner I will ask you again. When the dinner operation, I will ask you again. So it's like push, It's also very happy because I think Johan knows that I'm the guy that always needs some push So he's pushing me very very hard
Speaker #0
You said before that when you're presenting the wine to someone It's like presenting a baby, you want to take care of this Can you describe as a sommelier how do you present a bottle to people? What's the process that you should follow?
Speaker #1
I think for the first, we will start with the wine list. So we come with the wine list. I always try to talk with the guests. That's why. Because for the taste, it's very personal. I need to know which part of the taste from the guests. Then I can recommend some wine. So it's very important for me to know that how... all mostly the guests tasting because someone likes dry someone likes a little bit sweet but of course the guests some kind of a guest they want something sweet they didn't actually want something sweet it's just like more maybe hints of a sweet in my mind it's like more fruity more fruity because at the end if you take a really sweet wine they don't like it always like this so I will ask really really how is their flavor like it, then I introduce the wine, then to make sure that the wine that I introduce to them is really fit for them. So we take the wine, so from the cellar, we have a wine bucket. The wine is just lying down there. Then we take the bottle to the guest, and I see how is the, just checking for the label. Then after that, we open it first and the tasting. Then when the guest tasting the wine, then we can something, feedback, story. Then we can just first pour, then we can talk about the story like this.
Speaker #0
Yeah, so there are a few things from that, but I think it's interesting. I've seen a lot of people asking, why do sommelier show the bottle before opening it?
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
And so the answer is basically so that you can know. You can confirm that the label is the one that you ordered. Yeah, of course. Of course it's open,
Speaker #1
purchase 05. I'm not sure that I'm correct or not. We show the bottle to you, purchase 05, yes, confirm. It's also like this. Yeah, to show the label, then... Because you know,
Speaker #0
for some guests, it can be a bit impressing sometimes or they don't know why people are doing this. Oh, really? Yeah, I saw people asking online what...
Speaker #1
why do you need to show me the label?
Speaker #0
What should I do when somebody shows me the label? Just like confirm that it's the right one. Just confirm.
Speaker #1
Because sometimes, I guess, they didn't open the white list. He just verbally tell me what bottle they want. So some kinds of that, we also always need to confirm. It's good for showing the label to the guests in case... Sometimes it really happens. I think when we started... I think 9 years ago when we started, I was still that young. Then I forgot to show the label to the guests. And at the end, I think the vintage changed. So, I think I remember it was 2015. So the gas bottle was in 2015, but the vintage has changed to 2016 already. I didn't show the label to the guests, and of course the vintage sometimes changes, but of course they also matter to some of the guests, because also the vintage changes a lot, from 2015 to 2016. So the guests were really upset about it. And after that, we just refused to serve the 16. Because when I took the bottle to the guests to taste, they said, Oh, why is it 16? Why isn't it so major? So it's always good to be certain.
Speaker #0
Always good to confirm. So you told me that you have eight restaurants in this hotel. Do you have a specific wine list for each restaurant or it's shared wine list?
Speaker #1
No, we do. This is my strategy also. The strategy that if you only have individual wine list, typically it's more white butter guys. And also a small list for the butter bottle depends on the restaurant. It's like if I go, if I put in the Summer Palace of a Chinese restaurant, then we will be more focusing on Bodo. And we have Ming Pai Feilin, it's our new restaurant for food and cuisine. Then we try more Lin Sha, it's a lot more new region of China wine. Even the Badagas, more focusing on the... China why but the gas and so of course there's a lot of Japanese in the just you're focusing on the French but also more we often more more high expectation experience so that's why we offer also first growth for but the gas even we offer pictures by the gas pictures by the glass yeah Oh,
Speaker #0
that's fun. Here?
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
In the restaurant?
Speaker #1
Yeah, yeah. We are serving Patrice05 and a month ago I also offered many of a few lists of Patrice back vintage also 65, 68 for the Balagas.
Speaker #0
Patrice 68 by the glass?
Speaker #1
No 75.
Speaker #0
75 by the glass?
Speaker #1
75. That's crazy. How much is the glass? 98. Wow. Of course it's a little bit money. Of course it's... I remember it's 5,000 something for a small gas.
Speaker #0
Okay, okay. So it's...
Speaker #1
We're tasting Porsche.
Speaker #0
It's still expensive, but... So 5,000 Hong Kong dollars. So it's like 500 US, 600 US.
Speaker #1
It's a small gas tasting Porsche, so...
Speaker #0
But it's okay. It's okay. It's the opportunity to taste.
Speaker #1
I also have the wildfights for the pictures. 65, 89 and 05. Oh, wow.
Speaker #0
I need to come to that one day, actually.
Speaker #1
But now we sold out. We sold out. We only left, we sold the 75 and 89 also. So now I just keep the 05 for the Balacast for purchase. And we also, because our name is Western Purchase, so we have a full list of, not a full list, but a little more vintage list of purchase collection.
Speaker #0
And so what's the relationship between you this restaurant and Petrus. Is there a story behind that? Or is it just like a cool name?
Speaker #1
No, it's a no. It's a no because it's a long-term goal story because I'm here for the first 35 almost years. I joined only 10 years. So the story that I know is also heard from people. So we didn't have any connection with Petrus. And it's our owner that decided, okay, we have in Island Shangri-La, we have a restaurant produced in Carling Shangri-La before we called. restaurant Margo. I love the wine so if you using the wine name to the to eliminate the restaurant so here is much purchase and that I can't say it's Margo but the Margo wine restaurant now is because we now didn't they didn't continue so now it's called Italian restaurant is Angiolini so that's why now it's but the purchase still keep here okay okay so no no directing
Speaker #0
but you still have an extensive extensive presence of Petrus wine.
Speaker #1
Yeah yeah because we are we are still still uh we didn't have any collection but because of the same name that's why we're doing the collection of the pictures.
Speaker #0
Okay so I will come to taste the Petrus by the glass. I will come back for that. Marine is smiling behind the camera but I will be the only one to taste it. So you have different wine list for every restaurant in the hotel. How many references do you have, you would say?
Speaker #1
We have now 2,500 labels.
Speaker #0
2,500. Okay, so it's...
Speaker #1
It's like a Bible.
Speaker #0
It starts to be something. Yeah,
Speaker #1
Later I will show you the purchase wine list. It's like we call it Bible. But it's not that much with $2,500 only. We aiming to do more. But especially if we can control for the stock because you can see everywhere. Yeah. Also wide seller. Now we have a more large seller inside there also. But the purchase wireless is also as master wireless. So if the guest asks for the master wine in another restaurant, we also present the Bible. But besides the Bible, we also have individual smalls from the restaurant.
Speaker #0
For the atmosphere of the restaurant. Are you the one managing the wines that are present? Like, do you have new references coming, some that you stop, that type of thing? Are you the one deciding this? Yes, that's true.
Speaker #1
Now, yes.
Speaker #0
And how do you, like, what's your perspective on that? Because I guess for places like this one, I guess you are like kind of obliged to have all the classics, like all the Bordeaux first growth, the big Saint-Emilion, the big Pomerol, the nice Burgundy wines as well, like all the classics.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
I guess it's critical for you because the type of guests that come here expect that type of wines.
Speaker #1
Yeah, true.
Speaker #0
I guess you... Do you also like try to find new wines to put on the list? Maybe smaller estates, maybe less well-known?
Speaker #1
Gourard Champagne. Gourard Champagne, yeah. Yeah, we do.
Speaker #0
Gourard Champagne?
Speaker #1
We do, Even more young vintage, especially now that you're talking about the Burgundy now. So especially the Burgundy now is very, very hard to find. So if you buy now, only buy the recent vintage is 2022 and 2023. So... It's not yet ready but of course we want a little bit back vintage right? And the guests always looking for the back vintage. It's not that back vintage but it's 2010 something or 2005 or so. We have many stores before but we sold a lot. So I think the brand new now is like it's quite hard to do for the wildest. But I think now I'm... During like a five years plan, five years plan that we try to buy a lot of recent vintage, then we storage it in Shangri-La. So after that, after five years, it's almost ready to drink. It's like more harvesting. That moment after five years, we all try always looking for five years after to as a brand new recent vintage. We bought a lot of the recent vintage and we stay in here. Then I aim to harvest after five years. So we make pink pulver or drinking. We sell very a lot after five years. So I think this is now the surgery that I do in Burundi. The Bordeaux, yes. But we still can buy a lot of back vintage, right? So it's still okay.
Speaker #0
Yeah, because it's complicated for... such places because you want to have uh
Speaker #1
ready to drink wines because you should serve them so actually ready to drink but vintage recent vintage and small region but a very interesting thing we always do we always love to introduce something interesting why as a so many airline to the guests but some of the guests is coming is only looking for the big label so we we for the one is why we have a definite that two money new references. Because we need to fulfill all of the guest criteria. Some big label, small region, new region, and new wine, something also. Even that we are trying to explore many of the regions from China also. Yunnan, Linsha. I just come back from Yunnan.
Speaker #0
Okay, nice.
Speaker #1
Really good.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
I come back from Aoyun, as you know. so another
Speaker #0
Muxin and another Shaolin it's really really nice yeah Chinese wines is one of the focus that we have so we've only been to Shandong for now okay
Speaker #1
Shandong is oh so you go with the Lafite one yes so we went to Long Dai and to
Speaker #0
Runaway Cow okay just in front yeah which is super interesting and the region is very that is good also Wine is good and the region is cool because they have a big agriculture background, you know, with the apples. And so it's fun to see how they transfer this knowledge to vineyards. But yeah, Yunnan, we want to go, Ningxia, Xinjiang as well.
Speaker #1
Have you been there yet?
Speaker #0
No, no, but I would love to go. But one of the things that we witness is that Chinese wines are super interesting. And the level of quality starts to be really, really high. Yeah. you have you have very good wines and good wines from China yeah but how do your guests feel about this and how do they react because they're like the thing we see from Europe and the US the content that that we do is that people are a bit like they hesitate and you know they have a bad image of change and so they're like no but change once reason you know we have some and my point of view is different is actually chinese wine starts to be very good still a bit expensive but very good and interesting to to discover so how is your perspective and how do you in the end sell these wines to people here uh because it's a like if they don't want to try you won't sell sell them so how do you generate this we do by tasting yeah we do by tasting So, yeah, it's quite hard.
Speaker #1
But for us, I didn't see and we really don't like China wine in Shangri-La yet. But they always find, even when we do the bright tasting, they always find an interesting point that, oh, because they never think it's from China. They always, like, if I'm serving, our wine is like a bottle. The Chardonnay is like a Burgundy Burgundy style They're always doing Very very very well But of course we need to pick When we built the Lanshan It's still many many wines It's a new region So the wine is only 20 years old It's very very young As a wine So they actually In fact they need more time They need more fuel 10 to 20 years to develop the fine but you need to wait for us as a so many I picked the best fuel from Lin Sha back to Hong Kong from Yunnan back to Hong Kong so the guest trying tasting here is the one that I think is
Speaker #0
top three than let them to have putting on the list so it's not that much problem because they know us and they know me also they won't they know they know me I won't introduce something shit very disappointing things to them so so every time they they really need so many to introduce the wife So when the wine has some in this, it's really good to try. They really need to try also. So sometimes I do bright tasting. So guess what is that? The liver, liver correct.
Speaker #1
Yeah, for Chinese wines, it's complicated to be correct because they still don't have, I think, compulsory grapes that they need to use. Yeah, they have chrysanthemum,
Speaker #0
capsaicin,
Speaker #1
sometimes they have chrysanthemum.
Speaker #0
Marcelon from Linxia and now they have Ausha, also really doing really good. Respectively from Yunnan, they are very very high altitude, 2,300 meters in the vineyard. Really good. You can see the microchromic is so amazing. Last week when I've been there, suddenly it's raining. suddenly it's sunny sunny wow so it's a we're driving from Yunnan we call the city of
Speaker #1
Lijiang it's a very it's kind of a large city already but we still live six hours from Lijiang to the winery six hours that's why like when I when I talk about Yunnan to people and I say I want to go discover the region they're like Are you ready to do some cars? Because you're going to drive a lot if you go there.
Speaker #0
Yes. And I strongly recommend you to hire a driver. Don't drive by yourself. Because the road is quite dangerous. Sometimes there's some walk falling.
Speaker #1
But we won't go to Yunnan next week then. Oh, yeah? No, no, no. I think we need to organize something.
Speaker #0
Yeah. But if you...
Speaker #1
go to yunnan you will uh having a lot of noodles the rice noodle every every every morning i like this i'm okay with this i prefer the the egg sandwich but i can go for rice noodles as well they only have noodles yeah i'm perfectly integrated to hong kong now i i take a egg sandwich okay and uh ice lemon tea so good good good so that's perfect you if if I'm a let's say I'm a young winemaker like I recently took over an estate or whatever how can I try to reference my wines in places like yours now
Speaker #0
because as a hotel you only can buy some wine from the distributor so you only buy from distribution yeah it's just the policy from the group So we almost left directly from the gore. But of course, there's some domain that we can have some extra toll. Yeah. But for the small gore, actually, when I taste it, if I really like it, then I will ask my friend to consider importing to Hong Kong. Then I can have it in the use. So... Have you been to some wine expo in May sometimes?
Speaker #1
VinExpo? Yeah, we were at VinExpo.
Speaker #0
So the VinExpo, many of the little wineries also, they're also looking for a distributor in Hong Kong. So it's kind of this event, they can have a distributor. When I taste the wine, I really like it. So when asking again, which distributor in Hong Kong, they said no, then we will...
Speaker #1
they try to find the distributor in Hong Kong but once they have the distributor we normally we import from them okay and okay so for someone developing a wine estate it's still very interesting to come
Speaker #0
to see you so that you can try the wines and have feedback about this yeah they always come to us and having a little bit carrying a little bit sample then to taste yeah but better let me know early
Speaker #1
I can arrange in the time so okay um You said that sometimes you do blind tastings for clients. Yeah. I'm actually interested to understand the demographics and the expectations from the clients. So what type of people visit the restaurant here? What do they expect in the wine? Like, how do they consume wine, basically?
Speaker #0
Yeah. Because we also have tasting for the wine pairing. We always have an offering wine pairing on the menu. So, of course, many guests, they also order in the bottle, but when there's some single diner or two of them, they will normally have a pairing. If they don't have any ideas for the wine, then they will join to the wine pairing. So when I say it's a bright tasting, it only works for the wine pairing. But I won't do it every course. Only one to two wines for the wine pairing. We will see if the guest has a little bit of knowledge, then we will do the bright tasting. Because if the guest doesn't have any knowledge, no point to do the bite tasting but we will also see which guest is willing to have a little bit of fun because the bite tasting is a little bit fun it's no aim to get someone but just a little bit fun like this so we will see which guest and then we open the bite tasting when
Speaker #1
we were discussing just before the start of the podcast we talked about the fact that you are a tea master as well oh yeah so you you told me that you're very entry level in the for me is yeah in the thing but i think you still have better knowledge than me can you tell me more about what is t master and how did you start uh start this as well yeah
Speaker #0
t master is uh uh the one that i i exploring uh last year and when i traveled back to uh uh mainland uh the guangzhou to having uh the exam They have a tea master. The tea master is basically doing the things, the processing to having the tea, how to do a good way with different kind of tea because we have five to six type of tea. Then different tea, they have a different way to having the tea. So for the black tea, they... we're enquiring more high temperature the green tea a little bit low so the tea must start basically to doing to using the right way to having the tea in a different kind of tea they also have a tea judge then to judging which tea the tea leaf is good or not the level of the tea level yeah so why I'm going with the tea because I think tea is very very similar But, um... to the wine my personally think yes because they always having a little bit like similar like tak kwa also the single vinaigre the single pot of the tea leaf everything they also have this kind of things and I always if you know about the tea the poor the some of the little 5 to 10 years aging also then when you having um the poor tea, they need to rinse off the water a few times. For me, I think this process is like decantation. So it's really, really similar. So that's why I'm trying to explain the tea. And the year before, my stomach was a little bit health problem. So I don't want to drink much wine when I'm off. So actually, I'm now when I'm off. At my home, I drink tea. A little bit. Sorry, I said so many. But I drink a little bit of tea. Yeah. For my health. So that's why I explain about tea. It's very, very similar. And also, I think the tea sales and also the tea experience is now more important in Hong Kong. Especially now, many of teenagers, they didn't drink wine, they drink more, consume more local beverage. I think this is the problem now. As I can see, I can feel it. That's why I'm studying for the T. And you can see that two years, the sparkling tea is very, very on fire. The Saito, they're doing very well. And that's why I go with the tea. I think I need to have some more tea knowledge. That's why I go to Tea Mastery.
Speaker #1
And yeah, so you made the transition. But my next question was, do you see the rise of non-alcoholic beverage in the Shangri-La? Yeah, I see. We also have a non-alcohol pairing. Okay.
Speaker #0
Yeah, non-alcohol pairing. And in Switzerland,
Speaker #1
it's mainly tea?
Speaker #0
We have tea, we have grape juice, we have some mocktail. Ah,
Speaker #1
mocktail as well? Yeah.
Speaker #0
Yeah, we ask our bar manager, then we make some mocktail for purchase. Then we have a recipe, we just follow the recipe to do it for SM Hotel. Then we offering something special choice like sparkling tea to start with. If you're drinking while you have sparkling tea, then the one that's this to you may be having the champagne. So we also have a little bit bubble to start with. Then the main course we have, of course, we're using a lot for Alan Miok. for the grape juice, you know, the Merlot grape juice and the China grape juice. And the motel is basically making from that grape juice and to develop more flavor like this. Yeah. So in Shangri-La, we're also exploring our own cobalt tea with the real tea master. In Ming Pa, we have the real tea master. Then she's making the one that, the cobalt tea for us also.
Speaker #1
Okay.
Speaker #0
So it's good. I think it's, yeah, I saw the trend a little bit. As you can also, I'm not sure you can feel it or not, the teenagers now.
Speaker #1
Yeah, they don't drink that. They didn't drink wine.
Speaker #0
And I think it's part of responsibility for the one that, because some kind of, I think maybe they feel that wine is very hard to. content because you need to have some little bit basic knowledge then you need to then how to know to pick in the wine so the new generation they now not ordering many of wine maybe beer so I can see that more less than less now the young generation drinking the wine I think this is the problem And I think need to more going out to introducing wine and let them to have a little bit basic knowledge. So I always having, I always holding some tasting cards. I think it's the souvenir now, it's holding the tasting cards to the customer or friend, everything. We can, we just... having a little bit entry-level price, let them to taste the wine, then maybe making some friends, just casualing, then I think to bring the interest for them. 100%. Unless you can see five years, five and ten years after, no one drinking wine. Yeah. Then the whole business is caught up.
Speaker #1
Yeah, 100%. I think that's critical. That's also why we are doing this podcast. So I hope you guys enjoy it. Thank you very much for this interview. It makes me very curious to also see this non-alcoholic pairing. Actually, I once interviewed a sommelier in Paris and he was doing non-alcoholic beverage pairing as well. And he told me something that was very interesting. He told me, when I do this. non-alcoholic beverage i want the guy having the alcoholic beverage to be jealous of the other one you know because sometimes because sometimes when you like sometimes the choice of non-alcoholic beverage is very bad you know and oh yeah yeah you know what i mean like you're in a you're in an amazing restaurant and either you have wines either you have like bad juice or or sparkling water basically which is uh sparkling water is nice i love it but but you know what i mean like uh the the difference with uh with wine is crazy and so this guy was like no no i want to work with tea yeah with a great quality juice with that type of things to build something so that the person having the non-alcoholic beverage ends up very happy and having really like a good tasting experience um and a good uh yeah good uh good experience between the food and the drinks and i think that that's very important because this is also how you can have people realizing that um drinking good things impact your food and then your food impacts what you drink and i think when you realize that you're more into okay let's try this wine with this food And then you know It's also the First step into Having quality stuff And Terroir based stuff Like you know what I mean Like Good product Yeah I think it's important And I think now The people like
Speaker #0
Still Having the mindset That drinking wine is A very bad thing Not a positive thing That's why They always drink When we're talking about Drinking They always Got drunk La la la It's partying and all So. But for me, I think for the wine, it's more like elegant things. Yeah,
Speaker #1
and you can have like a few.
Speaker #0
But we need to teach them, not teach them, but introduce this part of wine things to them. In their mindsets, it's drinking alcohol, drunk, party. So I think it's one of very hard job as a sommelier for coming 10 years. to doing introducing wine to them to the public and very important thing I think everyone every so many need to do something because I really see it's a significant job for the people drinking wine
Speaker #1
100% Cyrus thank you very much for this it was a great discussion learned a lot about you and about this place I have three last questions you the first one is do you have a book recommendation for me it's definitely now
Speaker #0
Inside Burgundy okay because yeah I just I in April I bought Inside Burgundy the second edition from Burgundy so I look at it oh my amazing amazing book it's an amazing book very deep very deep very detailed on every region of Burgundy who is holding the headers hmm you This is a Bible for me.
Speaker #1
I will put the link in description, but it's indeed one of the most beautiful books you can have in wine. So I will put the link to Inside Burgundy in description. Do you have a recent wine that you tasted and you loved?
Speaker #0
Yes. It's the one that Yunnan, from Yunnan. It's called Muxin. Muxin. M-U-X-I-N. Muxin. Chardonnay. 2020 is 22 from... Ma Chou is a China winemaker but he is the one that having the winemaking a lot of year in Burgundy many of Burgundy winery then he back to United and starting his own business the first vintage is I think only two to three vintage have in recently in the market, but the 2022, 2023, amazing. I think I can say that for me, I've been to Linxia, Yunnan, things and trying a lot of Chardonnay. That Chardonnay, the Muxin, I can say that is the best in, I think I really can say it's a top one.
Speaker #1
Okay.
Speaker #0
If the Chardonnay in China, from China, from China, really, really good. He make Of course it's a Bulgarian style And And The way that He making the wine Like I think it's like A Coton Souramon Okay It's really amazing And very high attitude And And the background is When you When you're having the wine That high attitude Actually it's Many many of Hard thing to do Because many of problem
Speaker #1
Hmm
Speaker #0
And you can imagine that even that we travel to that one, we need six hours. So the delivery, one-way king, everything is very hard. It's very hard. The wine is really, really good.
Speaker #1
Okay, we'll try to find a bottle somewhere.
Speaker #0
We'll try to visit them. We'll see them there. Oh, really good. It's one of the best trials I've tried. A really, really top one. I can say it.
Speaker #1
Great.
Speaker #0
I'm now keep saying that. The musician, no choice. Really good, really good.
Speaker #1
We'll try to find a bottle and go see them. And finally, last question is, who?
Speaker #0
is the next person I should interview yeah of course it's only the guy it's Johan Johan Jossonen master souvenir and now he's in Cary Wise the head of Farnwise alright if you can have a podcast with him I think it's really really good we'll try to organize this podcast with Johan you may need two hours if
Speaker #1
he answers to my email someday we will definitely be happy to have him on the podcast I sent him a few messages you let me know I can text him text him for me because he's not answering my messages so I would love for you to do it thank you very much Cyrus it was an amazing discussion if you guys like this podcast don't forget to like it subscribe to the channel share this episode to people who need to drink Petrus by the glass here come discover the Shangri-La and the restaurants you will see the view is amazing the place is really nice and the wine list seems amazing and maybe the most seen by the guys we are available next week and yeah great Chinese wine available by Douglas so that's amazing Cyrus thanks again thank you so much and see you soon thank you Paul bye bye guys thank you thank you it was great
Speaker #0
Thank you for letting me know.

About Wine Makers Show: the wine podcast

What to Expect

In-Depth Interviews: Hear from top figures in the wine world, from renowned vintners to unsung heroes, as they share their experiences, challenges, and secrets to success.
Club Episodes: Explore specific wine topics, from production techniques to tasting tips, in focused, occasional deep dives.
A Journey of Discovery: Whether you're a novice or a connoisseur, we break down the complexities of wine to make it accessible and engaging.

Why Listen?

Connect with Us

Visit winemakersshow.com to get in touch or suggest a guest.
Email Antoine directly at winemakersshow@gmail.com.
Follow the journey on Instagram: @winemakersshow
Join the Academy and learn everything about wine

Tune in to Wine Makers Show and sip on the stories behind every bottle!

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

About Wine Makers Show: the wine podcast

What to Expect

In-Depth Interviews: Hear from top figures in the wine world, from renowned vintners to unsung heroes, as they share their experiences, challenges, and secrets to success.
Club Episodes: Explore specific wine topics, from production techniques to tasting tips, in focused, occasional deep dives.
A Journey of Discovery: Whether you're a novice or a connoisseur, we break down the complexities of wine to make it accessible and engaging.

Why Listen?

Connect with Us

Visit winemakersshow.com to get in touch or suggest a guest.
Email Antoine directly at winemakersshow@gmail.com.
Follow the journey on Instagram: @winemakersshow
Join the Academy and learn everything about wine

Tune in to Wine Makers Show and sip on the stories behind every bottle!

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

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Description

Expect back-vintage Petrus by the glass, a side career as a certified tea master, and a clear-eyed read on why the next generation isn't reaching for wine. Tune in!

▬▬ 🎁 GIFTS 🎁 ▬▬

📚 Inside Burgundy, by Jasper Morris

🍷 Discover the Island Shangri-La Hong Kong

🍽️ Discover the Restaurant Petrus

🎁 Get your wine essentials on our shop: a curated selection of wine accessories, posters and much more

🗺️ Get the best French Wine Map: as information as decorative

▬▬ ⭐️ ABOUT ⭐️ ▬▬

ALCOHOL ABUSE IS DANGEROUS FOUR YOUR HEALTH. CONSUME IN MODERATION.

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Transcription

Speaker #0
Hi Cyrus.
Speaker #1
Yeah, hi.
Speaker #0
Thank you very much for welcoming us here. So we're in the Petrus restaurant in the dining room of Shangri-La, right?
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
So we are in the heart of Hong Kong. I think you guys, if you are on YouTube, you can see behind me that the location is absolutely perfect. So we are in just above Pacific Place, so really a center of Hong Kong and of the energy here. We'll talk about... Your career as a sommelier, we'll talk about the Shangri-La, of course, and about a lot of other things. But first, can you introduce yourself? Yeah,
Speaker #1
for sure. So, hello everyone, I'm Cyrus, Cyrus Ho. So, I'm now the hotel sommelier in Shangri-La Group. I'm taking for now, here we have eight restaurants. So, for all the wide programming in Shangri-La, I'm Shangri-La Group here. so We have pictures for the restaurant. And we have a different outlet. We have also Chinese cuisine, Japanese, everything. And also we have more wine for our banquet event teams also. So basically like this I'm doing. But we will talk more about this.
Speaker #0
Yeah, we'll talk more about these places. You always wanted to work in the wine industry. How did it come to you?
Speaker #1
It's not also work in the wine, but it's, of course, someone that guide me, and it's my mentor also. Actually, I start from my studying. I'm a potter design. I'm design that part. So when I graduate from the school, it's potter design. So, I started to, I didn't work in the design industry. So after that, I go in a restaurant to just serve in a hotel restaurant for a wait, part-time or something. I remember that one is Lingam, Lingam Hotel in Shamshajir, that one. So I started there as a part-time, as a waiter. At that moment, I didn't also anything. about the wine also so when I starting in part-time the manager said oh you are very nice because of that they are lacking of people but of course they are also nice they also teaching me anything also so I remember one of the guests ordering wine ordering a bottle of wine is a very until now I still very remember that bottle because it's a it's a New Zealand Guishamine It's a Guizhou Manet from New Zealand. I remember it's Unisoft, the purple label bottle. But now I cannot find that bottle. Even I want to import, I didn't find it. Yes, it's why I remember that, because it's a kind of a TV star in Hong Kong, and he ordered this bottle. Then when I was looking for that bottle, I don't know how to pronounce the... grape is a very long wine so after that but the wine is really good for us for entry level wine drinkers like off dry little bit sweet light, very good very proofing wine so after that I tried to study how to pronounce the grape then at that moment I jumped to the wine I studied in study level YC level 2 then after that level 3 and go with the CMS certified level level then to start so now I think it's in this industry as a souvenir I think it's 10 years almost
Speaker #0
12 I think 10 to 12 years like this so it was like really random that you stumbled into wine actually you were not supposed to do this career in the wine industry yes kind of yes actually
Speaker #1
It's not the... planned to do but uh yeah of course i i found that of course it's some you know that some designer always have the manner uh why are you changing my design everything so it's also that's also to me that's why i quit the designer
Speaker #0
so you said that you you went through the different level of wict and then of satisfying master sommelier yeah um how did you How did you study for this? Were you by yourself or were you with the staff of the hotel and with people helping you in this?
Speaker #1
Then now in this point I need to talk about another person, he's called Johan. Johan Josslin is a master sommelier. So actually 10 years ago... I'm working in a restaurant purchase 10 years ago.
Speaker #0
Okay.
Speaker #1
I have here, I just come back for six months to take on all the program for the ancient. For my career as a really as a so many a title, I start in a restaurant purchase and who is the one that hire me is Johan. So Johan, I, I, I fairly liquid, kind of, more early, so many, than, Johan. When in Hong Kong as a master sommelier in Shangri-La, he hired us many of our local sommelier. Then now it's very good point that we can work with him, learn a lot from him. Because as a French people, as a French, it's not much like Johan that willing to teach you everything, talk to you about why everything he's really really good. mentor for me also. In Chinese, we call her Sifu. It's called a master. So even I get married, I also, Johan is also in my part of my, like the Chinese culture for the LDD, we are a couple, we need to have a tea with our Sifu. So he is the one like this. So I starting, I starting here. For SSL Mania Then I study with Johan always Teach me Everything So When I go Join here I'm Only wise at Level 3 Okay Something To start with Then after that Because of Johan here Also then I join Ascent for the CMS And step by step Level So Now Now is Yeah just like this for in Shangri-La group in West Lung Patrus I'm always almost three to half years in West Lung Patrus then after that Johan promoted me to the current Shangri-La to take in on the current Shangri-La program for three years three to half years something and after that when Johan left Hong Kong Johan left Hong Kong for one to two years Then also I left to Schengen. After that, I go with the Fulton. Okay. The Fulton Ocean Park one for three and a half years. And now back to Island Schengen for six months. So Island Schengen is like after 10 years, I'm back here. And now I'm kind of a little bit higher position. So... what I feel here in Shangri-La, then what I can do, what Johan thinking at that moment, always very amazing. So like this basically.
Speaker #0
What are the things that you learn at the beginning of your career? So you talk about Johan Jusland teaching you and being your kind of master at the beginning. What are the basics that you learned at that point? and that like surprised you the most or that are the most important for like I'm thinking about someone who is beginning his career as a sommelier and listening to us or watching us what should this person have in mind when starting this this new job and this journey yeah
Speaker #1
when I still remember that the first two weeks when I joined as a sommelier the only thing I can do from Johan is that okay you You're pouring the water. You're pouring the water. Whole week. Whole week. The first week I didn't touch any of wine. Only bottled water. So you see for the midnight also, we have a lawn also facing the table. Not much table. But she said, you refill for the water because water is the most basic for the drinks. everything and also the first thing that for the service to do everything good if you see the all the gas bottle the water is left and half you will feel it just top up but still very busy and in this pond you have a turn tea table you walk around it's only talking talk for the water and i think this is one of the part to really touching the base for the surface. Then after that, when we touch more wine, you know more about wine, then the gases come here is also for the wine. Because in Patrus, I think I can feel it's kind of a culture. That you can come and taste many different wines, Balagas or French wine, very deep to this, that one. When you're introducing your baby, when you have the wine, then introducing the guest, it's just like introducing the baby to my guest. So this is the passion and the guests really really want to hear it. And when you want to learn more about the story, then this is also feedback from the guests. Then always having this passion to introduce the wine to the guests. I really love it. I really really love to do it. Because when they're happy, they're all really good.
Speaker #0
So you start one week only water. Yes. At the end of this week, do you like... Are you disappointed? You know, you're like, what is this job? I'm just pouring water.
Speaker #1
I'm supposed to do it. No, I didn't. Because Johan is here also. And because that moment is very entry-level of my so many years of knowledge. So Johan asking me always to learn from the boat and always asking questions. It's very good to work with Johan, but it's also very hard. As you know, he always working, when you like opening the white bottle, and suddenly Johan come and he will ask you questions. Like which quick from this summe from the loha? Answer me. Few second, if you no-no, after that, after the lunch operation, you study. After that, after that, and then another dinner I will ask you again. When the dinner operation, I will ask you again. So it's like push, It's also very happy because I think Johan knows that I'm the guy that always needs some push So he's pushing me very very hard
Speaker #0
You said before that when you're presenting the wine to someone It's like presenting a baby, you want to take care of this Can you describe as a sommelier how do you present a bottle to people? What's the process that you should follow?
Speaker #1
I think for the first, we will start with the wine list. So we come with the wine list. I always try to talk with the guests. That's why. Because for the taste, it's very personal. I need to know which part of the taste from the guests. Then I can recommend some wine. So it's very important for me to know that how... all mostly the guests tasting because someone likes dry someone likes a little bit sweet but of course the guests some kind of a guest they want something sweet they didn't actually want something sweet it's just like more maybe hints of a sweet in my mind it's like more fruity more fruity because at the end if you take a really sweet wine they don't like it always like this so I will ask really really how is their flavor like it, then I introduce the wine, then to make sure that the wine that I introduce to them is really fit for them. So we take the wine, so from the cellar, we have a wine bucket. The wine is just lying down there. Then we take the bottle to the guest, and I see how is the, just checking for the label. Then after that, we open it first and the tasting. Then when the guest tasting the wine, then we can something, feedback, story. Then we can just first pour, then we can talk about the story like this.
Speaker #0
Yeah, so there are a few things from that, but I think it's interesting. I've seen a lot of people asking, why do sommelier show the bottle before opening it?
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
And so the answer is basically so that you can know. You can confirm that the label is the one that you ordered. Yeah, of course. Of course it's open,
Speaker #1
purchase 05. I'm not sure that I'm correct or not. We show the bottle to you, purchase 05, yes, confirm. It's also like this. Yeah, to show the label, then... Because you know,
Speaker #0
for some guests, it can be a bit impressing sometimes or they don't know why people are doing this. Oh, really? Yeah, I saw people asking online what...
Speaker #1
why do you need to show me the label?
Speaker #0
What should I do when somebody shows me the label? Just like confirm that it's the right one. Just confirm.
Speaker #1
Because sometimes, I guess, they didn't open the white list. He just verbally tell me what bottle they want. So some kinds of that, we also always need to confirm. It's good for showing the label to the guests in case... Sometimes it really happens. I think when we started... I think 9 years ago when we started, I was still that young. Then I forgot to show the label to the guests. And at the end, I think the vintage changed. So, I think I remember it was 2015. So the gas bottle was in 2015, but the vintage has changed to 2016 already. I didn't show the label to the guests, and of course the vintage sometimes changes, but of course they also matter to some of the guests, because also the vintage changes a lot, from 2015 to 2016. So the guests were really upset about it. And after that, we just refused to serve the 16. Because when I took the bottle to the guests to taste, they said, Oh, why is it 16? Why isn't it so major? So it's always good to be certain.
Speaker #0
Always good to confirm. So you told me that you have eight restaurants in this hotel. Do you have a specific wine list for each restaurant or it's shared wine list?
Speaker #1
No, we do. This is my strategy also. The strategy that if you only have individual wine list, typically it's more white butter guys. And also a small list for the butter bottle depends on the restaurant. It's like if I go, if I put in the Summer Palace of a Chinese restaurant, then we will be more focusing on Bodo. And we have Ming Pai Feilin, it's our new restaurant for food and cuisine. Then we try more Lin Sha, it's a lot more new region of China wine. Even the Badagas, more focusing on the... China why but the gas and so of course there's a lot of Japanese in the just you're focusing on the French but also more we often more more high expectation experience so that's why we offer also first growth for but the gas even we offer pictures by the gas pictures by the glass yeah Oh,
Speaker #0
that's fun. Here?
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
In the restaurant?
Speaker #1
Yeah, yeah. We are serving Patrice05 and a month ago I also offered many of a few lists of Patrice back vintage also 65, 68 for the Balagas.
Speaker #0
Patrice 68 by the glass?
Speaker #1
No 75.
Speaker #0
75 by the glass?
Speaker #1
75. That's crazy. How much is the glass? 98. Wow. Of course it's a little bit money. Of course it's... I remember it's 5,000 something for a small gas.
Speaker #0
Okay, okay. So it's...
Speaker #1
We're tasting Porsche.
Speaker #0
It's still expensive, but... So 5,000 Hong Kong dollars. So it's like 500 US, 600 US.
Speaker #1
It's a small gas tasting Porsche, so...
Speaker #0
But it's okay. It's okay. It's the opportunity to taste.
Speaker #1
I also have the wildfights for the pictures. 65, 89 and 05. Oh, wow.
Speaker #0
I need to come to that one day, actually.
Speaker #1
But now we sold out. We sold out. We only left, we sold the 75 and 89 also. So now I just keep the 05 for the Balacast for purchase. And we also, because our name is Western Purchase, so we have a full list of, not a full list, but a little more vintage list of purchase collection.
Speaker #0
And so what's the relationship between you this restaurant and Petrus. Is there a story behind that? Or is it just like a cool name?
Speaker #1
No, it's a no. It's a no because it's a long-term goal story because I'm here for the first 35 almost years. I joined only 10 years. So the story that I know is also heard from people. So we didn't have any connection with Petrus. And it's our owner that decided, okay, we have in Island Shangri-La, we have a restaurant produced in Carling Shangri-La before we called. restaurant Margo. I love the wine so if you using the wine name to the to eliminate the restaurant so here is much purchase and that I can't say it's Margo but the Margo wine restaurant now is because we now didn't they didn't continue so now it's called Italian restaurant is Angiolini so that's why now it's but the purchase still keep here okay okay so no no directing
Speaker #0
but you still have an extensive extensive presence of Petrus wine.
Speaker #1
Yeah yeah because we are we are still still uh we didn't have any collection but because of the same name that's why we're doing the collection of the pictures.
Speaker #0
Okay so I will come to taste the Petrus by the glass. I will come back for that. Marine is smiling behind the camera but I will be the only one to taste it. So you have different wine list for every restaurant in the hotel. How many references do you have, you would say?
Speaker #1
We have now 2,500 labels.
Speaker #0
2,500. Okay, so it's...
Speaker #1
It's like a Bible.
Speaker #0
It starts to be something. Yeah,
Speaker #1
Later I will show you the purchase wine list. It's like we call it Bible. But it's not that much with $2,500 only. We aiming to do more. But especially if we can control for the stock because you can see everywhere. Yeah. Also wide seller. Now we have a more large seller inside there also. But the purchase wireless is also as master wireless. So if the guest asks for the master wine in another restaurant, we also present the Bible. But besides the Bible, we also have individual smalls from the restaurant.
Speaker #0
For the atmosphere of the restaurant. Are you the one managing the wines that are present? Like, do you have new references coming, some that you stop, that type of thing? Are you the one deciding this? Yes, that's true.
Speaker #1
Now, yes.
Speaker #0
And how do you, like, what's your perspective on that? Because I guess for places like this one, I guess you are like kind of obliged to have all the classics, like all the Bordeaux first growth, the big Saint-Emilion, the big Pomerol, the nice Burgundy wines as well, like all the classics.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
I guess it's critical for you because the type of guests that come here expect that type of wines.
Speaker #1
Yeah, true.
Speaker #0
I guess you... Do you also like try to find new wines to put on the list? Maybe smaller estates, maybe less well-known?
Speaker #1
Gourard Champagne. Gourard Champagne, yeah. Yeah, we do.
Speaker #0
Gourard Champagne?
Speaker #1
We do, Even more young vintage, especially now that you're talking about the Burgundy now. So especially the Burgundy now is very, very hard to find. So if you buy now, only buy the recent vintage is 2022 and 2023. So... It's not yet ready but of course we want a little bit back vintage right? And the guests always looking for the back vintage. It's not that back vintage but it's 2010 something or 2005 or so. We have many stores before but we sold a lot. So I think the brand new now is like it's quite hard to do for the wildest. But I think now I'm... During like a five years plan, five years plan that we try to buy a lot of recent vintage, then we storage it in Shangri-La. So after that, after five years, it's almost ready to drink. It's like more harvesting. That moment after five years, we all try always looking for five years after to as a brand new recent vintage. We bought a lot of the recent vintage and we stay in here. Then I aim to harvest after five years. So we make pink pulver or drinking. We sell very a lot after five years. So I think this is now the surgery that I do in Burundi. The Bordeaux, yes. But we still can buy a lot of back vintage, right? So it's still okay.
Speaker #0
Yeah, because it's complicated for... such places because you want to have uh
Speaker #1
ready to drink wines because you should serve them so actually ready to drink but vintage recent vintage and small region but a very interesting thing we always do we always love to introduce something interesting why as a so many airline to the guests but some of the guests is coming is only looking for the big label so we we for the one is why we have a definite that two money new references. Because we need to fulfill all of the guest criteria. Some big label, small region, new region, and new wine, something also. Even that we are trying to explore many of the regions from China also. Yunnan, Linsha. I just come back from Yunnan.
Speaker #0
Okay, nice.
Speaker #1
Really good.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
I come back from Aoyun, as you know. so another
Speaker #0
Muxin and another Shaolin it's really really nice yeah Chinese wines is one of the focus that we have so we've only been to Shandong for now okay
Speaker #1
Shandong is oh so you go with the Lafite one yes so we went to Long Dai and to
Speaker #0
Runaway Cow okay just in front yeah which is super interesting and the region is very that is good also Wine is good and the region is cool because they have a big agriculture background, you know, with the apples. And so it's fun to see how they transfer this knowledge to vineyards. But yeah, Yunnan, we want to go, Ningxia, Xinjiang as well.
Speaker #1
Have you been there yet?
Speaker #0
No, no, but I would love to go. But one of the things that we witness is that Chinese wines are super interesting. And the level of quality starts to be really, really high. Yeah. you have you have very good wines and good wines from China yeah but how do your guests feel about this and how do they react because they're like the thing we see from Europe and the US the content that that we do is that people are a bit like they hesitate and you know they have a bad image of change and so they're like no but change once reason you know we have some and my point of view is different is actually chinese wine starts to be very good still a bit expensive but very good and interesting to to discover so how is your perspective and how do you in the end sell these wines to people here uh because it's a like if they don't want to try you won't sell sell them so how do you generate this we do by tasting yeah we do by tasting So, yeah, it's quite hard.
Speaker #1
But for us, I didn't see and we really don't like China wine in Shangri-La yet. But they always find, even when we do the bright tasting, they always find an interesting point that, oh, because they never think it's from China. They always, like, if I'm serving, our wine is like a bottle. The Chardonnay is like a Burgundy Burgundy style They're always doing Very very very well But of course we need to pick When we built the Lanshan It's still many many wines It's a new region So the wine is only 20 years old It's very very young As a wine So they actually In fact they need more time They need more fuel 10 to 20 years to develop the fine but you need to wait for us as a so many I picked the best fuel from Lin Sha back to Hong Kong from Yunnan back to Hong Kong so the guest trying tasting here is the one that I think is
Speaker #0
top three than let them to have putting on the list so it's not that much problem because they know us and they know me also they won't they know they know me I won't introduce something shit very disappointing things to them so so every time they they really need so many to introduce the wife So when the wine has some in this, it's really good to try. They really need to try also. So sometimes I do bright tasting. So guess what is that? The liver, liver correct.
Speaker #1
Yeah, for Chinese wines, it's complicated to be correct because they still don't have, I think, compulsory grapes that they need to use. Yeah, they have chrysanthemum,
Speaker #0
capsaicin,
Speaker #1
sometimes they have chrysanthemum.
Speaker #0
Marcelon from Linxia and now they have Ausha, also really doing really good. Respectively from Yunnan, they are very very high altitude, 2,300 meters in the vineyard. Really good. You can see the microchromic is so amazing. Last week when I've been there, suddenly it's raining. suddenly it's sunny sunny wow so it's a we're driving from Yunnan we call the city of
Speaker #1
Lijiang it's a very it's kind of a large city already but we still live six hours from Lijiang to the winery six hours that's why like when I when I talk about Yunnan to people and I say I want to go discover the region they're like Are you ready to do some cars? Because you're going to drive a lot if you go there.
Speaker #0
Yes. And I strongly recommend you to hire a driver. Don't drive by yourself. Because the road is quite dangerous. Sometimes there's some walk falling.
Speaker #1
But we won't go to Yunnan next week then. Oh, yeah? No, no, no. I think we need to organize something.
Speaker #0
Yeah. But if you...
Speaker #1
go to yunnan you will uh having a lot of noodles the rice noodle every every every morning i like this i'm okay with this i prefer the the egg sandwich but i can go for rice noodles as well they only have noodles yeah i'm perfectly integrated to hong kong now i i take a egg sandwich okay and uh ice lemon tea so good good good so that's perfect you if if I'm a let's say I'm a young winemaker like I recently took over an estate or whatever how can I try to reference my wines in places like yours now
Speaker #0
because as a hotel you only can buy some wine from the distributor so you only buy from distribution yeah it's just the policy from the group So we almost left directly from the gore. But of course, there's some domain that we can have some extra toll. Yeah. But for the small gore, actually, when I taste it, if I really like it, then I will ask my friend to consider importing to Hong Kong. Then I can have it in the use. So... Have you been to some wine expo in May sometimes?
Speaker #1
VinExpo? Yeah, we were at VinExpo.
Speaker #0
So the VinExpo, many of the little wineries also, they're also looking for a distributor in Hong Kong. So it's kind of this event, they can have a distributor. When I taste the wine, I really like it. So when asking again, which distributor in Hong Kong, they said no, then we will...
Speaker #1
they try to find the distributor in Hong Kong but once they have the distributor we normally we import from them okay and okay so for someone developing a wine estate it's still very interesting to come
Speaker #0
to see you so that you can try the wines and have feedback about this yeah they always come to us and having a little bit carrying a little bit sample then to taste yeah but better let me know early
Speaker #1
I can arrange in the time so okay um You said that sometimes you do blind tastings for clients. Yeah. I'm actually interested to understand the demographics and the expectations from the clients. So what type of people visit the restaurant here? What do they expect in the wine? Like, how do they consume wine, basically?
Speaker #0
Yeah. Because we also have tasting for the wine pairing. We always have an offering wine pairing on the menu. So, of course, many guests, they also order in the bottle, but when there's some single diner or two of them, they will normally have a pairing. If they don't have any ideas for the wine, then they will join to the wine pairing. So when I say it's a bright tasting, it only works for the wine pairing. But I won't do it every course. Only one to two wines for the wine pairing. We will see if the guest has a little bit of knowledge, then we will do the bright tasting. Because if the guest doesn't have any knowledge, no point to do the bite tasting but we will also see which guest is willing to have a little bit of fun because the bite tasting is a little bit fun it's no aim to get someone but just a little bit fun like this so we will see which guest and then we open the bite tasting when
Speaker #1
we were discussing just before the start of the podcast we talked about the fact that you are a tea master as well oh yeah so you you told me that you're very entry level in the for me is yeah in the thing but i think you still have better knowledge than me can you tell me more about what is t master and how did you start uh start this as well yeah
Speaker #0
t master is uh uh the one that i i exploring uh last year and when i traveled back to uh uh mainland uh the guangzhou to having uh the exam They have a tea master. The tea master is basically doing the things, the processing to having the tea, how to do a good way with different kind of tea because we have five to six type of tea. Then different tea, they have a different way to having the tea. So for the black tea, they... we're enquiring more high temperature the green tea a little bit low so the tea must start basically to doing to using the right way to having the tea in a different kind of tea they also have a tea judge then to judging which tea the tea leaf is good or not the level of the tea level yeah so why I'm going with the tea because I think tea is very very similar But, um... to the wine my personally think yes because they always having a little bit like similar like tak kwa also the single vinaigre the single pot of the tea leaf everything they also have this kind of things and I always if you know about the tea the poor the some of the little 5 to 10 years aging also then when you having um the poor tea, they need to rinse off the water a few times. For me, I think this process is like decantation. So it's really, really similar. So that's why I'm trying to explain the tea. And the year before, my stomach was a little bit health problem. So I don't want to drink much wine when I'm off. So actually, I'm now when I'm off. At my home, I drink tea. A little bit. Sorry, I said so many. But I drink a little bit of tea. Yeah. For my health. So that's why I explain about tea. It's very, very similar. And also, I think the tea sales and also the tea experience is now more important in Hong Kong. Especially now, many of teenagers, they didn't drink wine, they drink more, consume more local beverage. I think this is the problem now. As I can see, I can feel it. That's why I'm studying for the T. And you can see that two years, the sparkling tea is very, very on fire. The Saito, they're doing very well. And that's why I go with the tea. I think I need to have some more tea knowledge. That's why I go to Tea Mastery.
Speaker #1
And yeah, so you made the transition. But my next question was, do you see the rise of non-alcoholic beverage in the Shangri-La? Yeah, I see. We also have a non-alcohol pairing. Okay.
Speaker #0
Yeah, non-alcohol pairing. And in Switzerland,
Speaker #1
it's mainly tea?
Speaker #0
We have tea, we have grape juice, we have some mocktail. Ah,
Speaker #1
mocktail as well? Yeah.
Speaker #0
Yeah, we ask our bar manager, then we make some mocktail for purchase. Then we have a recipe, we just follow the recipe to do it for SM Hotel. Then we offering something special choice like sparkling tea to start with. If you're drinking while you have sparkling tea, then the one that's this to you may be having the champagne. So we also have a little bit bubble to start with. Then the main course we have, of course, we're using a lot for Alan Miok. for the grape juice, you know, the Merlot grape juice and the China grape juice. And the motel is basically making from that grape juice and to develop more flavor like this. Yeah. So in Shangri-La, we're also exploring our own cobalt tea with the real tea master. In Ming Pa, we have the real tea master. Then she's making the one that, the cobalt tea for us also.
Speaker #1
Okay.
Speaker #0
So it's good. I think it's, yeah, I saw the trend a little bit. As you can also, I'm not sure you can feel it or not, the teenagers now.
Speaker #1
Yeah, they don't drink that. They didn't drink wine.
Speaker #0
And I think it's part of responsibility for the one that, because some kind of, I think maybe they feel that wine is very hard to. content because you need to have some little bit basic knowledge then you need to then how to know to pick in the wine so the new generation they now not ordering many of wine maybe beer so I can see that more less than less now the young generation drinking the wine I think this is the problem And I think need to more going out to introducing wine and let them to have a little bit basic knowledge. So I always having, I always holding some tasting cards. I think it's the souvenir now, it's holding the tasting cards to the customer or friend, everything. We can, we just... having a little bit entry-level price, let them to taste the wine, then maybe making some friends, just casualing, then I think to bring the interest for them. 100%. Unless you can see five years, five and ten years after, no one drinking wine. Yeah. Then the whole business is caught up.
Speaker #1
Yeah, 100%. I think that's critical. That's also why we are doing this podcast. So I hope you guys enjoy it. Thank you very much for this interview. It makes me very curious to also see this non-alcoholic pairing. Actually, I once interviewed a sommelier in Paris and he was doing non-alcoholic beverage pairing as well. And he told me something that was very interesting. He told me, when I do this. non-alcoholic beverage i want the guy having the alcoholic beverage to be jealous of the other one you know because sometimes because sometimes when you like sometimes the choice of non-alcoholic beverage is very bad you know and oh yeah yeah you know what i mean like you're in a you're in an amazing restaurant and either you have wines either you have like bad juice or or sparkling water basically which is uh sparkling water is nice i love it but but you know what i mean like uh the the difference with uh with wine is crazy and so this guy was like no no i want to work with tea yeah with a great quality juice with that type of things to build something so that the person having the non-alcoholic beverage ends up very happy and having really like a good tasting experience um and a good uh yeah good uh good experience between the food and the drinks and i think that that's very important because this is also how you can have people realizing that um drinking good things impact your food and then your food impacts what you drink and i think when you realize that you're more into okay let's try this wine with this food And then you know It's also the First step into Having quality stuff And Terroir based stuff Like you know what I mean Like Good product Yeah I think it's important And I think now The people like
Speaker #0
Still Having the mindset That drinking wine is A very bad thing Not a positive thing That's why They always drink When we're talking about Drinking They always Got drunk La la la It's partying and all So. But for me, I think for the wine, it's more like elegant things. Yeah,
Speaker #1
and you can have like a few.
Speaker #0
But we need to teach them, not teach them, but introduce this part of wine things to them. In their mindsets, it's drinking alcohol, drunk, party. So I think it's one of very hard job as a sommelier for coming 10 years. to doing introducing wine to them to the public and very important thing I think everyone every so many need to do something because I really see it's a significant job for the people drinking wine
Speaker #1
100% Cyrus thank you very much for this it was a great discussion learned a lot about you and about this place I have three last questions you the first one is do you have a book recommendation for me it's definitely now
Speaker #0
Inside Burgundy okay because yeah I just I in April I bought Inside Burgundy the second edition from Burgundy so I look at it oh my amazing amazing book it's an amazing book very deep very deep very detailed on every region of Burgundy who is holding the headers hmm you This is a Bible for me.
Speaker #1
I will put the link in description, but it's indeed one of the most beautiful books you can have in wine. So I will put the link to Inside Burgundy in description. Do you have a recent wine that you tasted and you loved?
Speaker #0
Yes. It's the one that Yunnan, from Yunnan. It's called Muxin. Muxin. M-U-X-I-N. Muxin. Chardonnay. 2020 is 22 from... Ma Chou is a China winemaker but he is the one that having the winemaking a lot of year in Burgundy many of Burgundy winery then he back to United and starting his own business the first vintage is I think only two to three vintage have in recently in the market, but the 2022, 2023, amazing. I think I can say that for me, I've been to Linxia, Yunnan, things and trying a lot of Chardonnay. That Chardonnay, the Muxin, I can say that is the best in, I think I really can say it's a top one.
Speaker #1
Okay.
Speaker #0
If the Chardonnay in China, from China, from China, really, really good. He make Of course it's a Bulgarian style And And The way that He making the wine Like I think it's like A Coton Souramon Okay It's really amazing And very high attitude And And the background is When you When you're having the wine That high attitude Actually it's Many many of Hard thing to do Because many of problem
Speaker #1
Hmm
Speaker #0
And you can imagine that even that we travel to that one, we need six hours. So the delivery, one-way king, everything is very hard. It's very hard. The wine is really, really good.
Speaker #1
Okay, we'll try to find a bottle somewhere.
Speaker #0
We'll try to visit them. We'll see them there. Oh, really good. It's one of the best trials I've tried. A really, really top one. I can say it.
Speaker #1
Great.
Speaker #0
I'm now keep saying that. The musician, no choice. Really good, really good.
Speaker #1
We'll try to find a bottle and go see them. And finally, last question is, who?
Speaker #0
is the next person I should interview yeah of course it's only the guy it's Johan Johan Jossonen master souvenir and now he's in Cary Wise the head of Farnwise alright if you can have a podcast with him I think it's really really good we'll try to organize this podcast with Johan you may need two hours if
Speaker #1
he answers to my email someday we will definitely be happy to have him on the podcast I sent him a few messages you let me know I can text him text him for me because he's not answering my messages so I would love for you to do it thank you very much Cyrus it was an amazing discussion if you guys like this podcast don't forget to like it subscribe to the channel share this episode to people who need to drink Petrus by the glass here come discover the Shangri-La and the restaurants you will see the view is amazing the place is really nice and the wine list seems amazing and maybe the most seen by the guys we are available next week and yeah great Chinese wine available by Douglas so that's amazing Cyrus thanks again thank you so much and see you soon thank you Paul bye bye guys thank you thank you it was great
Speaker #0
Thank you for letting me know.

About Wine Makers Show: the wine podcast

What to Expect

In-Depth Interviews: Hear from top figures in the wine world, from renowned vintners to unsung heroes, as they share their experiences, challenges, and secrets to success.
Club Episodes: Explore specific wine topics, from production techniques to tasting tips, in focused, occasional deep dives.
A Journey of Discovery: Whether you're a novice or a connoisseur, we break down the complexities of wine to make it accessible and engaging.

Why Listen?

Connect with Us

Visit winemakersshow.com to get in touch or suggest a guest.
Email Antoine directly at winemakersshow@gmail.com.
Follow the journey on Instagram: @winemakersshow
Join the Academy and learn everything about wine

Tune in to Wine Makers Show and sip on the stories behind every bottle!

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

About Wine Makers Show: the wine podcast

What to Expect

In-Depth Interviews: Hear from top figures in the wine world, from renowned vintners to unsung heroes, as they share their experiences, challenges, and secrets to success.
Club Episodes: Explore specific wine topics, from production techniques to tasting tips, in focused, occasional deep dives.
A Journey of Discovery: Whether you're a novice or a connoisseur, we break down the complexities of wine to make it accessible and engaging.

Why Listen?

Connect with Us

Visit winemakersshow.com to get in touch or suggest a guest.
Email Antoine directly at winemakersshow@gmail.com.
Follow the journey on Instagram: @winemakersshow
Join the Academy and learn everything about wine

Tune in to Wine Makers Show and sip on the stories behind every bottle!

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Description

Expect back-vintage Petrus by the glass, a side career as a certified tea master, and a clear-eyed read on why the next generation isn't reaching for wine. Tune in!

▬▬ 🎁 GIFTS 🎁 ▬▬

📚 Inside Burgundy, by Jasper Morris

🍷 Discover the Island Shangri-La Hong Kong

🍽️ Discover the Restaurant Petrus

🎁 Get your wine essentials on our shop: a curated selection of wine accessories, posters and much more

🗺️ Get the best French Wine Map: as information as decorative

▬▬ ⭐️ ABOUT ⭐️ ▬▬

ALCOHOL ABUSE IS DANGEROUS FOUR YOUR HEALTH. CONSUME IN MODERATION.

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Transcription

Speaker #0
Hi Cyrus.
Speaker #1
Yeah, hi.
Speaker #0
Thank you very much for welcoming us here. So we're in the Petrus restaurant in the dining room of Shangri-La, right?
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
So we are in the heart of Hong Kong. I think you guys, if you are on YouTube, you can see behind me that the location is absolutely perfect. So we are in just above Pacific Place, so really a center of Hong Kong and of the energy here. We'll talk about... Your career as a sommelier, we'll talk about the Shangri-La, of course, and about a lot of other things. But first, can you introduce yourself? Yeah,
Speaker #1
for sure. So, hello everyone, I'm Cyrus, Cyrus Ho. So, I'm now the hotel sommelier in Shangri-La Group. I'm taking for now, here we have eight restaurants. So, for all the wide programming in Shangri-La, I'm Shangri-La Group here. so We have pictures for the restaurant. And we have a different outlet. We have also Chinese cuisine, Japanese, everything. And also we have more wine for our banquet event teams also. So basically like this I'm doing. But we will talk more about this.
Speaker #0
Yeah, we'll talk more about these places. You always wanted to work in the wine industry. How did it come to you?
Speaker #1
It's not also work in the wine, but it's, of course, someone that guide me, and it's my mentor also. Actually, I start from my studying. I'm a potter design. I'm design that part. So when I graduate from the school, it's potter design. So, I started to, I didn't work in the design industry. So after that, I go in a restaurant to just serve in a hotel restaurant for a wait, part-time or something. I remember that one is Lingam, Lingam Hotel in Shamshajir, that one. So I started there as a part-time, as a waiter. At that moment, I didn't also anything. about the wine also so when I starting in part-time the manager said oh you are very nice because of that they are lacking of people but of course they are also nice they also teaching me anything also so I remember one of the guests ordering wine ordering a bottle of wine is a very until now I still very remember that bottle because it's a it's a New Zealand Guishamine It's a Guizhou Manet from New Zealand. I remember it's Unisoft, the purple label bottle. But now I cannot find that bottle. Even I want to import, I didn't find it. Yes, it's why I remember that, because it's a kind of a TV star in Hong Kong, and he ordered this bottle. Then when I was looking for that bottle, I don't know how to pronounce the... grape is a very long wine so after that but the wine is really good for us for entry level wine drinkers like off dry little bit sweet light, very good very proofing wine so after that I tried to study how to pronounce the grape then at that moment I jumped to the wine I studied in study level YC level 2 then after that level 3 and go with the CMS certified level level then to start so now I think it's in this industry as a souvenir I think it's 10 years almost
Speaker #0
12 I think 10 to 12 years like this so it was like really random that you stumbled into wine actually you were not supposed to do this career in the wine industry yes kind of yes actually
Speaker #1
It's not the... planned to do but uh yeah of course i i found that of course it's some you know that some designer always have the manner uh why are you changing my design everything so it's also that's also to me that's why i quit the designer
Speaker #0
so you said that you you went through the different level of wict and then of satisfying master sommelier yeah um how did you How did you study for this? Were you by yourself or were you with the staff of the hotel and with people helping you in this?
Speaker #1
Then now in this point I need to talk about another person, he's called Johan. Johan Josslin is a master sommelier. So actually 10 years ago... I'm working in a restaurant purchase 10 years ago.
Speaker #0
Okay.
Speaker #1
I have here, I just come back for six months to take on all the program for the ancient. For my career as a really as a so many a title, I start in a restaurant purchase and who is the one that hire me is Johan. So Johan, I, I, I fairly liquid, kind of, more early, so many, than, Johan. When in Hong Kong as a master sommelier in Shangri-La, he hired us many of our local sommelier. Then now it's very good point that we can work with him, learn a lot from him. Because as a French people, as a French, it's not much like Johan that willing to teach you everything, talk to you about why everything he's really really good. mentor for me also. In Chinese, we call her Sifu. It's called a master. So even I get married, I also, Johan is also in my part of my, like the Chinese culture for the LDD, we are a couple, we need to have a tea with our Sifu. So he is the one like this. So I starting, I starting here. For SSL Mania Then I study with Johan always Teach me Everything So When I go Join here I'm Only wise at Level 3 Okay Something To start with Then after that Because of Johan here Also then I join Ascent for the CMS And step by step Level So Now Now is Yeah just like this for in Shangri-La group in West Lung Patrus I'm always almost three to half years in West Lung Patrus then after that Johan promoted me to the current Shangri-La to take in on the current Shangri-La program for three years three to half years something and after that when Johan left Hong Kong Johan left Hong Kong for one to two years Then also I left to Schengen. After that, I go with the Fulton. Okay. The Fulton Ocean Park one for three and a half years. And now back to Island Schengen for six months. So Island Schengen is like after 10 years, I'm back here. And now I'm kind of a little bit higher position. So... what I feel here in Shangri-La, then what I can do, what Johan thinking at that moment, always very amazing. So like this basically.
Speaker #0
What are the things that you learn at the beginning of your career? So you talk about Johan Jusland teaching you and being your kind of master at the beginning. What are the basics that you learned at that point? and that like surprised you the most or that are the most important for like I'm thinking about someone who is beginning his career as a sommelier and listening to us or watching us what should this person have in mind when starting this this new job and this journey yeah
Speaker #1
when I still remember that the first two weeks when I joined as a sommelier the only thing I can do from Johan is that okay you You're pouring the water. You're pouring the water. Whole week. Whole week. The first week I didn't touch any of wine. Only bottled water. So you see for the midnight also, we have a lawn also facing the table. Not much table. But she said, you refill for the water because water is the most basic for the drinks. everything and also the first thing that for the service to do everything good if you see the all the gas bottle the water is left and half you will feel it just top up but still very busy and in this pond you have a turn tea table you walk around it's only talking talk for the water and i think this is one of the part to really touching the base for the surface. Then after that, when we touch more wine, you know more about wine, then the gases come here is also for the wine. Because in Patrus, I think I can feel it's kind of a culture. That you can come and taste many different wines, Balagas or French wine, very deep to this, that one. When you're introducing your baby, when you have the wine, then introducing the guest, it's just like introducing the baby to my guest. So this is the passion and the guests really really want to hear it. And when you want to learn more about the story, then this is also feedback from the guests. Then always having this passion to introduce the wine to the guests. I really love it. I really really love to do it. Because when they're happy, they're all really good.
Speaker #0
So you start one week only water. Yes. At the end of this week, do you like... Are you disappointed? You know, you're like, what is this job? I'm just pouring water.
Speaker #1
I'm supposed to do it. No, I didn't. Because Johan is here also. And because that moment is very entry-level of my so many years of knowledge. So Johan asking me always to learn from the boat and always asking questions. It's very good to work with Johan, but it's also very hard. As you know, he always working, when you like opening the white bottle, and suddenly Johan come and he will ask you questions. Like which quick from this summe from the loha? Answer me. Few second, if you no-no, after that, after the lunch operation, you study. After that, after that, and then another dinner I will ask you again. When the dinner operation, I will ask you again. So it's like push, It's also very happy because I think Johan knows that I'm the guy that always needs some push So he's pushing me very very hard
Speaker #0
You said before that when you're presenting the wine to someone It's like presenting a baby, you want to take care of this Can you describe as a sommelier how do you present a bottle to people? What's the process that you should follow?
Speaker #1
I think for the first, we will start with the wine list. So we come with the wine list. I always try to talk with the guests. That's why. Because for the taste, it's very personal. I need to know which part of the taste from the guests. Then I can recommend some wine. So it's very important for me to know that how... all mostly the guests tasting because someone likes dry someone likes a little bit sweet but of course the guests some kind of a guest they want something sweet they didn't actually want something sweet it's just like more maybe hints of a sweet in my mind it's like more fruity more fruity because at the end if you take a really sweet wine they don't like it always like this so I will ask really really how is their flavor like it, then I introduce the wine, then to make sure that the wine that I introduce to them is really fit for them. So we take the wine, so from the cellar, we have a wine bucket. The wine is just lying down there. Then we take the bottle to the guest, and I see how is the, just checking for the label. Then after that, we open it first and the tasting. Then when the guest tasting the wine, then we can something, feedback, story. Then we can just first pour, then we can talk about the story like this.
Speaker #0
Yeah, so there are a few things from that, but I think it's interesting. I've seen a lot of people asking, why do sommelier show the bottle before opening it?
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
And so the answer is basically so that you can know. You can confirm that the label is the one that you ordered. Yeah, of course. Of course it's open,
Speaker #1
purchase 05. I'm not sure that I'm correct or not. We show the bottle to you, purchase 05, yes, confirm. It's also like this. Yeah, to show the label, then... Because you know,
Speaker #0
for some guests, it can be a bit impressing sometimes or they don't know why people are doing this. Oh, really? Yeah, I saw people asking online what...
Speaker #1
why do you need to show me the label?
Speaker #0
What should I do when somebody shows me the label? Just like confirm that it's the right one. Just confirm.
Speaker #1
Because sometimes, I guess, they didn't open the white list. He just verbally tell me what bottle they want. So some kinds of that, we also always need to confirm. It's good for showing the label to the guests in case... Sometimes it really happens. I think when we started... I think 9 years ago when we started, I was still that young. Then I forgot to show the label to the guests. And at the end, I think the vintage changed. So, I think I remember it was 2015. So the gas bottle was in 2015, but the vintage has changed to 2016 already. I didn't show the label to the guests, and of course the vintage sometimes changes, but of course they also matter to some of the guests, because also the vintage changes a lot, from 2015 to 2016. So the guests were really upset about it. And after that, we just refused to serve the 16. Because when I took the bottle to the guests to taste, they said, Oh, why is it 16? Why isn't it so major? So it's always good to be certain.
Speaker #0
Always good to confirm. So you told me that you have eight restaurants in this hotel. Do you have a specific wine list for each restaurant or it's shared wine list?
Speaker #1
No, we do. This is my strategy also. The strategy that if you only have individual wine list, typically it's more white butter guys. And also a small list for the butter bottle depends on the restaurant. It's like if I go, if I put in the Summer Palace of a Chinese restaurant, then we will be more focusing on Bodo. And we have Ming Pai Feilin, it's our new restaurant for food and cuisine. Then we try more Lin Sha, it's a lot more new region of China wine. Even the Badagas, more focusing on the... China why but the gas and so of course there's a lot of Japanese in the just you're focusing on the French but also more we often more more high expectation experience so that's why we offer also first growth for but the gas even we offer pictures by the gas pictures by the glass yeah Oh,
Speaker #0
that's fun. Here?
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
In the restaurant?
Speaker #1
Yeah, yeah. We are serving Patrice05 and a month ago I also offered many of a few lists of Patrice back vintage also 65, 68 for the Balagas.
Speaker #0
Patrice 68 by the glass?
Speaker #1
No 75.
Speaker #0
75 by the glass?
Speaker #1
75. That's crazy. How much is the glass? 98. Wow. Of course it's a little bit money. Of course it's... I remember it's 5,000 something for a small gas.
Speaker #0
Okay, okay. So it's...
Speaker #1
We're tasting Porsche.
Speaker #0
It's still expensive, but... So 5,000 Hong Kong dollars. So it's like 500 US, 600 US.
Speaker #1
It's a small gas tasting Porsche, so...
Speaker #0
But it's okay. It's okay. It's the opportunity to taste.
Speaker #1
I also have the wildfights for the pictures. 65, 89 and 05. Oh, wow.
Speaker #0
I need to come to that one day, actually.
Speaker #1
But now we sold out. We sold out. We only left, we sold the 75 and 89 also. So now I just keep the 05 for the Balacast for purchase. And we also, because our name is Western Purchase, so we have a full list of, not a full list, but a little more vintage list of purchase collection.
Speaker #0
And so what's the relationship between you this restaurant and Petrus. Is there a story behind that? Or is it just like a cool name?
Speaker #1
No, it's a no. It's a no because it's a long-term goal story because I'm here for the first 35 almost years. I joined only 10 years. So the story that I know is also heard from people. So we didn't have any connection with Petrus. And it's our owner that decided, okay, we have in Island Shangri-La, we have a restaurant produced in Carling Shangri-La before we called. restaurant Margo. I love the wine so if you using the wine name to the to eliminate the restaurant so here is much purchase and that I can't say it's Margo but the Margo wine restaurant now is because we now didn't they didn't continue so now it's called Italian restaurant is Angiolini so that's why now it's but the purchase still keep here okay okay so no no directing
Speaker #0
but you still have an extensive extensive presence of Petrus wine.
Speaker #1
Yeah yeah because we are we are still still uh we didn't have any collection but because of the same name that's why we're doing the collection of the pictures.
Speaker #0
Okay so I will come to taste the Petrus by the glass. I will come back for that. Marine is smiling behind the camera but I will be the only one to taste it. So you have different wine list for every restaurant in the hotel. How many references do you have, you would say?
Speaker #1
We have now 2,500 labels.
Speaker #0
2,500. Okay, so it's...
Speaker #1
It's like a Bible.
Speaker #0
It starts to be something. Yeah,
Speaker #1
Later I will show you the purchase wine list. It's like we call it Bible. But it's not that much with $2,500 only. We aiming to do more. But especially if we can control for the stock because you can see everywhere. Yeah. Also wide seller. Now we have a more large seller inside there also. But the purchase wireless is also as master wireless. So if the guest asks for the master wine in another restaurant, we also present the Bible. But besides the Bible, we also have individual smalls from the restaurant.
Speaker #0
For the atmosphere of the restaurant. Are you the one managing the wines that are present? Like, do you have new references coming, some that you stop, that type of thing? Are you the one deciding this? Yes, that's true.
Speaker #1
Now, yes.
Speaker #0
And how do you, like, what's your perspective on that? Because I guess for places like this one, I guess you are like kind of obliged to have all the classics, like all the Bordeaux first growth, the big Saint-Emilion, the big Pomerol, the nice Burgundy wines as well, like all the classics.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
I guess it's critical for you because the type of guests that come here expect that type of wines.
Speaker #1
Yeah, true.
Speaker #0
I guess you... Do you also like try to find new wines to put on the list? Maybe smaller estates, maybe less well-known?
Speaker #1
Gourard Champagne. Gourard Champagne, yeah. Yeah, we do.
Speaker #0
Gourard Champagne?
Speaker #1
We do, Even more young vintage, especially now that you're talking about the Burgundy now. So especially the Burgundy now is very, very hard to find. So if you buy now, only buy the recent vintage is 2022 and 2023. So... It's not yet ready but of course we want a little bit back vintage right? And the guests always looking for the back vintage. It's not that back vintage but it's 2010 something or 2005 or so. We have many stores before but we sold a lot. So I think the brand new now is like it's quite hard to do for the wildest. But I think now I'm... During like a five years plan, five years plan that we try to buy a lot of recent vintage, then we storage it in Shangri-La. So after that, after five years, it's almost ready to drink. It's like more harvesting. That moment after five years, we all try always looking for five years after to as a brand new recent vintage. We bought a lot of the recent vintage and we stay in here. Then I aim to harvest after five years. So we make pink pulver or drinking. We sell very a lot after five years. So I think this is now the surgery that I do in Burundi. The Bordeaux, yes. But we still can buy a lot of back vintage, right? So it's still okay.
Speaker #0
Yeah, because it's complicated for... such places because you want to have uh
Speaker #1
ready to drink wines because you should serve them so actually ready to drink but vintage recent vintage and small region but a very interesting thing we always do we always love to introduce something interesting why as a so many airline to the guests but some of the guests is coming is only looking for the big label so we we for the one is why we have a definite that two money new references. Because we need to fulfill all of the guest criteria. Some big label, small region, new region, and new wine, something also. Even that we are trying to explore many of the regions from China also. Yunnan, Linsha. I just come back from Yunnan.
Speaker #0
Okay, nice.
Speaker #1
Really good.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
I come back from Aoyun, as you know. so another
Speaker #0
Muxin and another Shaolin it's really really nice yeah Chinese wines is one of the focus that we have so we've only been to Shandong for now okay
Speaker #1
Shandong is oh so you go with the Lafite one yes so we went to Long Dai and to
Speaker #0
Runaway Cow okay just in front yeah which is super interesting and the region is very that is good also Wine is good and the region is cool because they have a big agriculture background, you know, with the apples. And so it's fun to see how they transfer this knowledge to vineyards. But yeah, Yunnan, we want to go, Ningxia, Xinjiang as well.
Speaker #1
Have you been there yet?
Speaker #0
No, no, but I would love to go. But one of the things that we witness is that Chinese wines are super interesting. And the level of quality starts to be really, really high. Yeah. you have you have very good wines and good wines from China yeah but how do your guests feel about this and how do they react because they're like the thing we see from Europe and the US the content that that we do is that people are a bit like they hesitate and you know they have a bad image of change and so they're like no but change once reason you know we have some and my point of view is different is actually chinese wine starts to be very good still a bit expensive but very good and interesting to to discover so how is your perspective and how do you in the end sell these wines to people here uh because it's a like if they don't want to try you won't sell sell them so how do you generate this we do by tasting yeah we do by tasting So, yeah, it's quite hard.
Speaker #1
But for us, I didn't see and we really don't like China wine in Shangri-La yet. But they always find, even when we do the bright tasting, they always find an interesting point that, oh, because they never think it's from China. They always, like, if I'm serving, our wine is like a bottle. The Chardonnay is like a Burgundy Burgundy style They're always doing Very very very well But of course we need to pick When we built the Lanshan It's still many many wines It's a new region So the wine is only 20 years old It's very very young As a wine So they actually In fact they need more time They need more fuel 10 to 20 years to develop the fine but you need to wait for us as a so many I picked the best fuel from Lin Sha back to Hong Kong from Yunnan back to Hong Kong so the guest trying tasting here is the one that I think is
Speaker #0
top three than let them to have putting on the list so it's not that much problem because they know us and they know me also they won't they know they know me I won't introduce something shit very disappointing things to them so so every time they they really need so many to introduce the wife So when the wine has some in this, it's really good to try. They really need to try also. So sometimes I do bright tasting. So guess what is that? The liver, liver correct.
Speaker #1
Yeah, for Chinese wines, it's complicated to be correct because they still don't have, I think, compulsory grapes that they need to use. Yeah, they have chrysanthemum,
Speaker #0
capsaicin,
Speaker #1
sometimes they have chrysanthemum.
Speaker #0
Marcelon from Linxia and now they have Ausha, also really doing really good. Respectively from Yunnan, they are very very high altitude, 2,300 meters in the vineyard. Really good. You can see the microchromic is so amazing. Last week when I've been there, suddenly it's raining. suddenly it's sunny sunny wow so it's a we're driving from Yunnan we call the city of
Speaker #1
Lijiang it's a very it's kind of a large city already but we still live six hours from Lijiang to the winery six hours that's why like when I when I talk about Yunnan to people and I say I want to go discover the region they're like Are you ready to do some cars? Because you're going to drive a lot if you go there.
Speaker #0
Yes. And I strongly recommend you to hire a driver. Don't drive by yourself. Because the road is quite dangerous. Sometimes there's some walk falling.
Speaker #1
But we won't go to Yunnan next week then. Oh, yeah? No, no, no. I think we need to organize something.
Speaker #0
Yeah. But if you...
Speaker #1
go to yunnan you will uh having a lot of noodles the rice noodle every every every morning i like this i'm okay with this i prefer the the egg sandwich but i can go for rice noodles as well they only have noodles yeah i'm perfectly integrated to hong kong now i i take a egg sandwich okay and uh ice lemon tea so good good good so that's perfect you if if I'm a let's say I'm a young winemaker like I recently took over an estate or whatever how can I try to reference my wines in places like yours now
Speaker #0
because as a hotel you only can buy some wine from the distributor so you only buy from distribution yeah it's just the policy from the group So we almost left directly from the gore. But of course, there's some domain that we can have some extra toll. Yeah. But for the small gore, actually, when I taste it, if I really like it, then I will ask my friend to consider importing to Hong Kong. Then I can have it in the use. So... Have you been to some wine expo in May sometimes?
Speaker #1
VinExpo? Yeah, we were at VinExpo.
Speaker #0
So the VinExpo, many of the little wineries also, they're also looking for a distributor in Hong Kong. So it's kind of this event, they can have a distributor. When I taste the wine, I really like it. So when asking again, which distributor in Hong Kong, they said no, then we will...
Speaker #1
they try to find the distributor in Hong Kong but once they have the distributor we normally we import from them okay and okay so for someone developing a wine estate it's still very interesting to come
Speaker #0
to see you so that you can try the wines and have feedback about this yeah they always come to us and having a little bit carrying a little bit sample then to taste yeah but better let me know early
Speaker #1
I can arrange in the time so okay um You said that sometimes you do blind tastings for clients. Yeah. I'm actually interested to understand the demographics and the expectations from the clients. So what type of people visit the restaurant here? What do they expect in the wine? Like, how do they consume wine, basically?
Speaker #0
Yeah. Because we also have tasting for the wine pairing. We always have an offering wine pairing on the menu. So, of course, many guests, they also order in the bottle, but when there's some single diner or two of them, they will normally have a pairing. If they don't have any ideas for the wine, then they will join to the wine pairing. So when I say it's a bright tasting, it only works for the wine pairing. But I won't do it every course. Only one to two wines for the wine pairing. We will see if the guest has a little bit of knowledge, then we will do the bright tasting. Because if the guest doesn't have any knowledge, no point to do the bite tasting but we will also see which guest is willing to have a little bit of fun because the bite tasting is a little bit fun it's no aim to get someone but just a little bit fun like this so we will see which guest and then we open the bite tasting when
Speaker #1
we were discussing just before the start of the podcast we talked about the fact that you are a tea master as well oh yeah so you you told me that you're very entry level in the for me is yeah in the thing but i think you still have better knowledge than me can you tell me more about what is t master and how did you start uh start this as well yeah
Speaker #0
t master is uh uh the one that i i exploring uh last year and when i traveled back to uh uh mainland uh the guangzhou to having uh the exam They have a tea master. The tea master is basically doing the things, the processing to having the tea, how to do a good way with different kind of tea because we have five to six type of tea. Then different tea, they have a different way to having the tea. So for the black tea, they... we're enquiring more high temperature the green tea a little bit low so the tea must start basically to doing to using the right way to having the tea in a different kind of tea they also have a tea judge then to judging which tea the tea leaf is good or not the level of the tea level yeah so why I'm going with the tea because I think tea is very very similar But, um... to the wine my personally think yes because they always having a little bit like similar like tak kwa also the single vinaigre the single pot of the tea leaf everything they also have this kind of things and I always if you know about the tea the poor the some of the little 5 to 10 years aging also then when you having um the poor tea, they need to rinse off the water a few times. For me, I think this process is like decantation. So it's really, really similar. So that's why I'm trying to explain the tea. And the year before, my stomach was a little bit health problem. So I don't want to drink much wine when I'm off. So actually, I'm now when I'm off. At my home, I drink tea. A little bit. Sorry, I said so many. But I drink a little bit of tea. Yeah. For my health. So that's why I explain about tea. It's very, very similar. And also, I think the tea sales and also the tea experience is now more important in Hong Kong. Especially now, many of teenagers, they didn't drink wine, they drink more, consume more local beverage. I think this is the problem now. As I can see, I can feel it. That's why I'm studying for the T. And you can see that two years, the sparkling tea is very, very on fire. The Saito, they're doing very well. And that's why I go with the tea. I think I need to have some more tea knowledge. That's why I go to Tea Mastery.
Speaker #1
And yeah, so you made the transition. But my next question was, do you see the rise of non-alcoholic beverage in the Shangri-La? Yeah, I see. We also have a non-alcohol pairing. Okay.
Speaker #0
Yeah, non-alcohol pairing. And in Switzerland,
Speaker #1
it's mainly tea?
Speaker #0
We have tea, we have grape juice, we have some mocktail. Ah,
Speaker #1
mocktail as well? Yeah.
Speaker #0
Yeah, we ask our bar manager, then we make some mocktail for purchase. Then we have a recipe, we just follow the recipe to do it for SM Hotel. Then we offering something special choice like sparkling tea to start with. If you're drinking while you have sparkling tea, then the one that's this to you may be having the champagne. So we also have a little bit bubble to start with. Then the main course we have, of course, we're using a lot for Alan Miok. for the grape juice, you know, the Merlot grape juice and the China grape juice. And the motel is basically making from that grape juice and to develop more flavor like this. Yeah. So in Shangri-La, we're also exploring our own cobalt tea with the real tea master. In Ming Pa, we have the real tea master. Then she's making the one that, the cobalt tea for us also.
Speaker #1
Okay.
Speaker #0
So it's good. I think it's, yeah, I saw the trend a little bit. As you can also, I'm not sure you can feel it or not, the teenagers now.
Speaker #1
Yeah, they don't drink that. They didn't drink wine.
Speaker #0
And I think it's part of responsibility for the one that, because some kind of, I think maybe they feel that wine is very hard to. content because you need to have some little bit basic knowledge then you need to then how to know to pick in the wine so the new generation they now not ordering many of wine maybe beer so I can see that more less than less now the young generation drinking the wine I think this is the problem And I think need to more going out to introducing wine and let them to have a little bit basic knowledge. So I always having, I always holding some tasting cards. I think it's the souvenir now, it's holding the tasting cards to the customer or friend, everything. We can, we just... having a little bit entry-level price, let them to taste the wine, then maybe making some friends, just casualing, then I think to bring the interest for them. 100%. Unless you can see five years, five and ten years after, no one drinking wine. Yeah. Then the whole business is caught up.
Speaker #1
Yeah, 100%. I think that's critical. That's also why we are doing this podcast. So I hope you guys enjoy it. Thank you very much for this interview. It makes me very curious to also see this non-alcoholic pairing. Actually, I once interviewed a sommelier in Paris and he was doing non-alcoholic beverage pairing as well. And he told me something that was very interesting. He told me, when I do this. non-alcoholic beverage i want the guy having the alcoholic beverage to be jealous of the other one you know because sometimes because sometimes when you like sometimes the choice of non-alcoholic beverage is very bad you know and oh yeah yeah you know what i mean like you're in a you're in an amazing restaurant and either you have wines either you have like bad juice or or sparkling water basically which is uh sparkling water is nice i love it but but you know what i mean like uh the the difference with uh with wine is crazy and so this guy was like no no i want to work with tea yeah with a great quality juice with that type of things to build something so that the person having the non-alcoholic beverage ends up very happy and having really like a good tasting experience um and a good uh yeah good uh good experience between the food and the drinks and i think that that's very important because this is also how you can have people realizing that um drinking good things impact your food and then your food impacts what you drink and i think when you realize that you're more into okay let's try this wine with this food And then you know It's also the First step into Having quality stuff And Terroir based stuff Like you know what I mean Like Good product Yeah I think it's important And I think now The people like
Speaker #0
Still Having the mindset That drinking wine is A very bad thing Not a positive thing That's why They always drink When we're talking about Drinking They always Got drunk La la la It's partying and all So. But for me, I think for the wine, it's more like elegant things. Yeah,
Speaker #1
and you can have like a few.
Speaker #0
But we need to teach them, not teach them, but introduce this part of wine things to them. In their mindsets, it's drinking alcohol, drunk, party. So I think it's one of very hard job as a sommelier for coming 10 years. to doing introducing wine to them to the public and very important thing I think everyone every so many need to do something because I really see it's a significant job for the people drinking wine
Speaker #1
100% Cyrus thank you very much for this it was a great discussion learned a lot about you and about this place I have three last questions you the first one is do you have a book recommendation for me it's definitely now
Speaker #0
Inside Burgundy okay because yeah I just I in April I bought Inside Burgundy the second edition from Burgundy so I look at it oh my amazing amazing book it's an amazing book very deep very deep very detailed on every region of Burgundy who is holding the headers hmm you This is a Bible for me.
Speaker #1
I will put the link in description, but it's indeed one of the most beautiful books you can have in wine. So I will put the link to Inside Burgundy in description. Do you have a recent wine that you tasted and you loved?
Speaker #0
Yes. It's the one that Yunnan, from Yunnan. It's called Muxin. Muxin. M-U-X-I-N. Muxin. Chardonnay. 2020 is 22 from... Ma Chou is a China winemaker but he is the one that having the winemaking a lot of year in Burgundy many of Burgundy winery then he back to United and starting his own business the first vintage is I think only two to three vintage have in recently in the market, but the 2022, 2023, amazing. I think I can say that for me, I've been to Linxia, Yunnan, things and trying a lot of Chardonnay. That Chardonnay, the Muxin, I can say that is the best in, I think I really can say it's a top one.
Speaker #1
Okay.
Speaker #0
If the Chardonnay in China, from China, from China, really, really good. He make Of course it's a Bulgarian style And And The way that He making the wine Like I think it's like A Coton Souramon Okay It's really amazing And very high attitude And And the background is When you When you're having the wine That high attitude Actually it's Many many of Hard thing to do Because many of problem
Speaker #1
Hmm
Speaker #0
And you can imagine that even that we travel to that one, we need six hours. So the delivery, one-way king, everything is very hard. It's very hard. The wine is really, really good.
Speaker #1
Okay, we'll try to find a bottle somewhere.
Speaker #0
We'll try to visit them. We'll see them there. Oh, really good. It's one of the best trials I've tried. A really, really top one. I can say it.
Speaker #1
Great.
Speaker #0
I'm now keep saying that. The musician, no choice. Really good, really good.
Speaker #1
We'll try to find a bottle and go see them. And finally, last question is, who?
Speaker #0
is the next person I should interview yeah of course it's only the guy it's Johan Johan Jossonen master souvenir and now he's in Cary Wise the head of Farnwise alright if you can have a podcast with him I think it's really really good we'll try to organize this podcast with Johan you may need two hours if
Speaker #1
he answers to my email someday we will definitely be happy to have him on the podcast I sent him a few messages you let me know I can text him text him for me because he's not answering my messages so I would love for you to do it thank you very much Cyrus it was an amazing discussion if you guys like this podcast don't forget to like it subscribe to the channel share this episode to people who need to drink Petrus by the glass here come discover the Shangri-La and the restaurants you will see the view is amazing the place is really nice and the wine list seems amazing and maybe the most seen by the guys we are available next week and yeah great Chinese wine available by Douglas so that's amazing Cyrus thanks again thank you so much and see you soon thank you Paul bye bye guys thank you thank you it was great
Speaker #0
Thank you for letting me know.

About Wine Makers Show: the wine podcast

What to Expect

In-Depth Interviews: Hear from top figures in the wine world, from renowned vintners to unsung heroes, as they share their experiences, challenges, and secrets to success.
Club Episodes: Explore specific wine topics, from production techniques to tasting tips, in focused, occasional deep dives.
A Journey of Discovery: Whether you're a novice or a connoisseur, we break down the complexities of wine to make it accessible and engaging.

Why Listen?

Connect with Us

Visit winemakersshow.com to get in touch or suggest a guest.
Email Antoine directly at winemakersshow@gmail.com.
Follow the journey on Instagram: @winemakersshow
Join the Academy and learn everything about wine

Tune in to Wine Makers Show and sip on the stories behind every bottle!

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

About Wine Makers Show: the wine podcast

What to Expect

In-Depth Interviews: Hear from top figures in the wine world, from renowned vintners to unsung heroes, as they share their experiences, challenges, and secrets to success.
Club Episodes: Explore specific wine topics, from production techniques to tasting tips, in focused, occasional deep dives.
A Journey of Discovery: Whether you're a novice or a connoisseur, we break down the complexities of wine to make it accessible and engaging.

Why Listen?

Connect with Us

Visit winemakersshow.com to get in touch or suggest a guest.
Email Antoine directly at winemakersshow@gmail.com.
Follow the journey on Instagram: @winemakersshow
Join the Academy and learn everything about wine

Tune in to Wine Makers Show and sip on the stories behind every bottle!

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

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