Transcription

• Speaker #0

  Hi, Judy.

• Speaker #1

  Hi.

• Speaker #0

  Thank you very much for being available this afternoon. I'm super happy that we can discuss together. We have plenty of topics to discuss. Chinese wines is definitely part of it. And the journey that you have in it is crazy. And I can't wait to hear your story and understand where you come from, what has been happening. And you also brought us some nice gin.

• Speaker #1

  I was just putting it in my back pocket, thought something I'd pull out.

• Speaker #0

  So that was a good surprise. We are recording this episode at Le Silen, which is a very nice wine bar in Hong Kong. So thank you very much to them for welcoming us. For once, we are drinking water at Le Silen, but you can see that we are very well surrounded. So you can be assured of what we'll drink a bit later. Judy, thanks again. Can you start by introducing yourself?

• Speaker #1

  Okay. I'm Judy. I'm born and raised in Hong Kong and then went to US for college. I joined an investment bank and then took over Grace vineyard at the end of 2002. I've been in the industry now forever. Next year is Grace vineyard 30th anniversary. And I know in Europe, then 30 years for a winery is not that long. But in China, we're probably quite long. And I feel quite lucky because I'm doing something that I really enjoy as well. I get to observe how the industry is kind of like built. And because when I started, there were probably 20-something producers, I would say that there's over a thousand labels now. So you really see how the industry kind of take off and now how it comes down. So it's an interesting journey.

• Speaker #0

  So let us understand a bit more your journey. So you work in investment banking. So in college, you studied like finance or business?

• Speaker #1

  I am. I'm a women's study psychology major.

• Speaker #0

  Okay, wow.

• Speaker #1

  Yes, so there is nothing to do with that. I was just waiting to go to graduate school and there was like an eight-month window period and I thought that maybe let's get a job. And I was actually interviewing for the Equal Opportunity Commissions. Oh, I shouldn't mention that because they offered me very low salary, so I didn't go. So end up being in an investment bank, it wasn't the plan. And one thing leads to another. I think life is about sliding door. Sometimes you miss, you choose a different time of getting on the train, then your path completely different.

• Speaker #0

  100%. I've lived that already 10 times in my life. This podcast is part of the other things when you know you open doors and you don't know where that leads you. So in 2002, you have this... opportunity about Grace vineyard. Can you give us a bit more?

• Speaker #1

  I wouldn't say it's an opportunity. Seriously, got tricked by my dad. We were just having a family dinner and my father is an entrepreneur and I always knew he was in business, but I had no idea what he was doing because when you're a kid, you really don't care about what your parents are. So one night we have dinner. My dad said, oh, would you be interested in joining the family business? He never mentioned it before. My family's are... Not that traditional. My dad is Indonesian Chinese, so we are quite liberal, quite free, knowing that I study women's study, right? And so I thought it would be very fun to work with my dad. He's just a very fun person. And so the first day I show up at work, I thought that he would ask me to do operation. But instead, he gave me two startups. One is Grace vineyard, which is about to bottle the first wine. There's no name, no label, nothing. No distribution, nobody. And then the other one is actually in another province selling a graveyard and building a house.

• Speaker #0

  And so you take control?

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. My dad is a very hands-off person. And then he was like, okay, you have a college degree. Why don't you run with it? And it was the first time I really run after my father asking for advice because I've never been to Shanxi, where the winery is located. I didn't drink. I didn't know anything about wine. I didn't know management. The team was probably back in the days around their 40s. I was in my early 20s. So there's all these things I didn't know. And so I keep asking my father for advice. And he was like, oh, use your brain. Don't make an irreversible mistake. Then it's fine. Which kind of mistake is reversible? And what is reversible?

• Speaker #0

  Um, what is your first day at Griezmann? So you signed up with your father and then I guess you like take a plane or whatever and you arrive at Griezmann.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, I took a plane. I remember it was winter, landed in a really, really dark airport because Sanchi back in the day was less developed, and then drove into the countryside with no light. It's even more like in the middle of nowhere. And then it was like, yeah, back in the days, I remember I would stay in the staff dormitory because there's nothing nearby. I remember there was not enough of heating. It was cold to death. I literally had to wear everything that I brought in my suitcase and cover as many blankets as possible. That was what I remember. I remember I arrived at night. I remember that I couldn't see my hands. You know, growing up in Hong Kong, night is never night.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah,

• Speaker #1

  yeah. Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  There are always lights everywhere.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the first time is like, okay, this is really dark.

• Speaker #0

  And so what do you do for this first day?

• Speaker #1

  I went, I mean, I arrived at night, so I went to bed, I guess.

• Speaker #0

  And then?

• Speaker #1

  meeting all the staff second day basically walk around the winery and meet uh the team and talk to them um trying to sound intelligent even though i didn't know anything and did you did you train in a way like did you try to gain knowledge or or followed course or that i try i try actually um so when i when my dad proposed i would tell me that okay what about you run the winery and I actually proposed, what about I work from the bottom up? I'm very capable of physical work, cleaning barrels, all those things I can do. And my father is saying that, oh, no, I'm not training you to be a general manager. I'm training you to be the boss. Being a boss is not being arrogant. It's just that you know how to get people who are more talented than you to do the different role. And so, yeah, so I basically helicopter in. um but we were about to package a bottle of first wine uh i'm trying to read as much as i possibly can but you know wine is not about reading you can read as much but if you can't taste it if you can't taste it and one glass i pass out so it's very hard for me to taste as well so it was like it was just like a chaotic time uh we make a million bottle first year a million wow because Because my dad hired a Chinese firm to do feasibility studies. Based on the fact in the days, most of the wine was retailing at like maybe three euro. So think about it. It's not kind of like high end. As a result,

• Speaker #0

  you need to have a lot of volume.

• Speaker #1

  And because we're in the middle of nowhere. So we need to build our own power facility, wastewater treatment, dormitory for staff. So the feasibility, my father did, told him that he needs to make at least $4 million to even consider break-even. So he was already being conservative to 25%. But still, a million.

• Speaker #0

  How do you sell this first million?

• Speaker #1

  We didn't sell. The first vintage was we only sold 20,000. Actually, 10,000 was gave away for free. And it wasn't really selling. If I give away everything, 20,000 for free, I think I lost less money. Because you literally have no brand, no distribution channel. And the packaging was horrible. Back in the days, you couldn't find a high-end bottle, capsule, cork, because retailing wine is like three euro. Yeah, so I was so desperate. Because even though I don't know management and wine, I know math. Like 1 million, I only do 20,000. It's like, so I will have to sell for 50 years. I didn't even know that the wine couldn't last for 50 years. Then the next vintage is coming. Clearly, I don't have 100 years to live. Something has to be done. And also, don't forget, 2003 is SARS. We were supposed to join an exhibition and organize, cancel our booth, cancel our hotel automatically.

• Speaker #0

  So impossible to meet the market. That's crazy because I don't have trouble imagining what it was, but I didn't live this transition for Chinese wines. When we arrived here in Hong Kong, so it's been a bit more than a year, we went to Shanghai for nice tastings. Then we went to Shandong, we saw nice estates and things that are like operations that are running, wines that are good.

• Speaker #1

  It wasn't like that. You think about it. Back in the days, in 2000, early 2000, you can't really find any winemakers. Because my team, besides the French winemakers, nobody knew anything about wine. Never even drank wine before. And the nearby villages always thought that we are basically a spy center. Because there is people coming in and out, but there's nothing. They didn't know that the grape had to grow for three, four years. Wine is still making, right? And so it was like, so anything that you want, you couldn't find. So there is like, as I said, packaging you can't find. The bottle we had to import from France. Capsule, you have to import. Quark, you have to import barrels. And also winemakers, right? You don't have local people. Yeah, it was quite something.

• Speaker #0

  This has changed dramatically.

• Speaker #1

  Dramatically. Now it's completely different. As I said, we were only like maybe 20-something producers. A lot of them are state-owned. It was dominated by state-owned brands in the market. Now, I mean... any wine that you wanted to try, you can find in China, right? They are, I think it's a quite interesting market. And from a producer perspective, it's anything that you want now, you can find in China. From bottle, capsule, not quite yet. I don't know why. But there are so many different winemakers, people who educated overseas, come back, their different style. And back in the days, there was only Cabernet Sauvignon and Chardonnay. nothing else now you will find very you know riesling orange wine and this person 20 20 000 bottle that person doing something else and it's genuine uh which is it's a great development uh when i first started the industry was much less um mature so even we want to have a conversation with our other producer it's hard because the concept is very different

• Speaker #0

  All right, Drew. Do you remember the first time you tasted a bottle of Grace vineyard with a buyer or with like someone not from China, you know, presenting this wine? Do you remember?

• Speaker #1

  I think I don't remember the first time, but I remember one of the very first early moment of embarrassment is we got a chance to promote and do a wine dinner in Singapore. And I remember I was presenting. Chardonnay, Cabernet, Franc, Cabernet Sauvignon, Merlot, four wines, and memorized all the tasting notes because I couldn't tell. I mean, the only one that I can tell is Cap Franc out of the three breads. And because it was quite green back in the day, so there is a peppery taste. I didn't know that that was because it's quite green. Anyway, so I could tell, I can taste that. And there was a table of guests. being very nice they stay behind because they can really see through that i didn't know anything about wine i was just like reciting from the top of my head and they put three glasses in front of me and said tell me which one is which one and i was like okay careful i can tell then a 50 50 chance so i had to take a wild guess i got it right but they also said okay you just guess it right i said yes that's fun

• Speaker #0

  Can you describe a bit what those grace vineyard look like and what the region looks like? Where is it exactly in China? Like, you know, I think I am definitely not a specialist of Chinese wines, but people looking or listening to that are also very far from it. So can you describe a bit more where is it? What does it look like?

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, so the easiest way for you to picture it is that you know where Beijing is. You know where the Terracotta Warriors is. We're in the middle of between the two places, right below in the Mongolia. So you can imagine it's very dry, sandy. It's basically Gobi Desert sand accumulated there a thousand years. So there are sandy loams, soil. Like day and night temperature can be quite different. Like summer now, at night it would be 19 degrees. During the day it would be 35. But winter it can go below like 20 below zero. So I've probably heard that in China.

• Speaker #0

  Do you bury the vines? Yeah.

• Speaker #1

  You have to bury the vines. So it restricts our growing season. It also restricts the way we plant the grapes. So we started in Shanxi. Then, because in 2007, we have a crazy rainy harvest, so everything was destroyed. And so we decided that we need to diversify. We couldn't be in just one location. And so we expand to Ningxia.

• Speaker #0

  Okay.

• Speaker #1

  And yeah, so we started to experience in Ningxia. And then all the vines we import ourselves because we don't only want to know the variety. We also want to know the clone. But importing vines take at least 15 years from importing the vines to having a product. So because you can't now, they no longer, you can import a big quantity. You can only import as a research project. So it's a very limited quantity. Then you need to quarantine for a year. Then you need to put in nursery to make enough of cuttings to plant. Then you need to plant for three, four years to make two years of wine. You make a few vintages and then, oh, this grape actually have a future. Then you can cultivate more vines.

• Speaker #0

  Cultivate more, yeah.

• Speaker #1

  And then plant another year. Sorry, can you imagine? And then there's so many failures. Yeah, Pinot was a complete, we tried three times, didn't work. A lot of red, white grape doesn't work. The only one is Chardonnay that worked. Riesling didn't work. Sauvignon Blanc didn't work. Chiening Blanc didn't work. Plenty of things that didn't work.

• Speaker #0

  I heard a lot about Maseron in China. Is it something that you've planted? Maseron,

• Speaker #1

  we did plant it. We actually, one of our higher award is, our mass land because uh early days chinese alcohol uh content wine alcohol content it's very hard to get to 12 yeah now it's really hard to suppress it below 15 and and then the other thing the color is very light um even our our cabin etovian or mass it has very soft tanning and because it's so light in color Remember I met Lida May, which is the sign of French winemaker back in the days. And he said that, why don't you plant Marsland? Because it's so dark in color, it's so thick skin. So we planted for blending purpose, make the color a little bit more attractive. It turned out to be a grape that is rain resistant, flavorful, and it can potentially be the Mamian Nick. like Sauvignon Blanc for New Zealand, Syrah for Australia type of things.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, it can be the grape of China. This is what people are talking about. They said a few months ago, I like them. But yeah, I hear more and more people saying, we believe that China found this grape.

• Speaker #1

  I think it's mostly because our climate is difficult. We are summer rain. Winter, you have to bury the vines. And the thick-skinned grape seems to make sense. But it's still a long way to go. I mean, we are still experimenting. Like last year, we just launched Sapriavi, Nibiolo, and Temprino. The year before, we launched Centrifluci. So we're still planting because you need to try. I mean, the question people always ask me is, do you think that Ningxia is better than Sanxi or Shandong or whatever? I think it's the combination, right?

• Speaker #0

  what do you plant where do you plant and with the climate changing what would it be like um i think we just need to keep an open mind yeah well what we discovered when we so we did a massive tasting of of chinese wines uh in in shanghai and what we discovered at that moment is that you have some estates that try to copy some style uh so you know you have like bordeaux style bordeaux blending child that type of things so like it's well done but drinking it blindly i wouldn't tell specifically it comes from china it's like a good bordeaux style of wine that could come from anywhere in the world and on the other hand we also found some estates that are trying to like they are a bit past this stage and now they are trying to they continue experimenting but they are trying to express what is a their own wine and they're like they're a bit like you they're like We have planted this grape, We are trying to see what works, what doesn't. And I find it just super interesting to be at this moment in time. Like it's a bit as if we were in Burgundy 2000 years ago. You know, it's like the moment when we start experimenting, shaping a region and stuff. It's a crazy moment.

• Speaker #1

  There's a lot of things you can do. I mean, planting varieties is one thing. And do you fermentate in tank or stainless steel tanks or barrels? We also have cement tank. We also have the Afara egg. So literally different things. And now the crazy team, because we are also doing whiskey and wine. So we send the bourbon barrel up to the winery. We send the wine barrel down for gin and whiskey. So it's like a lot of mixture. It was like, okay, calm down, guys.

• Speaker #0

  Can't do everything at the same time. So you said your first year you produced one million bottles, but finding distribution for that was kind of complicated. How is your distribution today?

• Speaker #1

  It's completely different than back in the days. We were chosen as a Harvard Business School case study back in 2008. And when I look back at the case study. Nothing is relevant. Everything changes. I think now we are, I mean, even in the last five years, things change because the market has become quite difficult. I think we are doing more direct to consumer. Because one thing that's lovely about China is the logistics is so developed.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, that's great.

• Speaker #1

  Right. So it's also very affordable. And also the... you know everybody's so used to buying things online uh so and social media are very popular uh so direct to consumer is one area that we're going really well um and so you sell through your own like which i can program or yeah we do basically uh we want i we want to do it ourself because i think that it's give give originally we did it ourself because we wanted to have a channel that we have a direct communication with. consumer. Because back in the days when you first sell through a distributor, distributor plays the wine in a restaurant or hotel, something went wrong, the customer would tell the hotel, hotel would tell the distributor, you never really have a what would happen, right? So we want to keep one channel that we have an access to consumer directly. And that's how we started. And now become one of our biggest growth area. And then And... Of course, the whole restaurant scene is different. We don't sell everywhere in China because China is really too big. So there's also no reason, too lazy to travel everywhere. So essentially, where the wine is based is definitely one of our focus. And then Hong Kong, Shanghai, Beijing, Shenzhen is for branding and then exposure. Online, direct to consumers and on the lake. um we don't focus um most at all in um export i don't i don't understand i don't see the logic of someone wanting to uh i can't see the logic of someone wanting to try a chinese one i can't see a repeat customer saying that oh my seller need a chinese one i think that the the export market for chinese wines is a i

• Speaker #0

  like makes very little sense when you have so such a big Thank you. own markets like you know you you talk about shenzhen shanghai and beijing i think if you if you take the population of these three cities you you have like two times the population of france i think the other thing yeah that's one we're lucky to have a big

• Speaker #1

  local market the other thing is that unlike other product that you make in china making wine in china is not cheap. And so when it comes to price, oftentimes we are more expensive.

• Speaker #0

  than chile spain and things yeah on the export yeah so that make it more difficult yeah the the orientation for export for you would be like branding in some very cool restaurants or or yeah we are available in the bordeaux one museum which is a which is very nice we will go have a look next time but yeah it's that kind of opportunity but i guess it makes no sense to actually we we discussed with some guys about Chinese wines and they were like like That's true that the export market is not a priority to date. But if you think about the Chinese diaspora in the world, it could actually be something to have wine that comes from their country.

• Speaker #1

  It may potentially be in maybe 5-10 years. Back in the day, absolutely not. But because the reason is, people always thought, okay, Chinese would be great to order Chinese wine. Not necessary. They would be ordering Qingdao beer.

• Speaker #0

  Exactly.

• Speaker #1

  Or soy or salt. But wine, because most of the Chinese immigrants back in the days were probably more working class. They have less exposure to wine. They have less confidence when it comes to choosing wine. For them to choose a Chinese wine and recommend it to others in other countries, I think that is... I can't picture it.

• Speaker #0

  How do you see the market in China? So when we talk to European producers or even American producers, everyone is talking about less consumption, less consumption by the younger generation, people being way less into wines than decades ago. Do you see the same thing in the Chinese market?

• Speaker #1

  I think we, in China, I feel it's not quite like... europe or us that younger people because of how conscious that they don't drink as much alcohol it's just that they two things they now drink it more for their own pleasure back in the days was a business medium that you need to drink when you were like have a dinner or working so so So the selection or choices of beverage will be very different. Right now you drink for your own pleasure. So probably from price point or things that you choose will be different. The other one is I think there's so many more choices in terms of beverage. In the days like, so there's Baijiu, which is the biggest in, do you know it's the biggest liquor drink in the world?

• Speaker #0

  I just knew, but it makes sense.

• Speaker #1

  The funny thing is that, you know, all the spirit add up in the world, drink consuming the world is less than Baijiu. And Baijiu is only really drink by the Chinese.

• Speaker #0

  That's crazy.

• Speaker #1

  Anyway, so they're the biggest.

• Speaker #0

  Don't drink Baijiu.

• Speaker #1

  Not my cup of tea. And then there's also beer, second category, then wine. Now there's whiskey, there's cocktail, there's RTD. So many choices, I think. I think the wine decline mainly because it's not as trendy. Used to be drinking wine is sophisticated. Secondly, wine is just really confusing. You need to know a certain level of knowledge in order to order something. And yeah, third, it's just so many choices.

• Speaker #0

  Okay, so you still kind of see the trend of less consumption, but not because of health. else like issues and generation not wanting to to drink and stuff and drink triathlon and everything but mostly because of other factors you described that's uh that's interesting because it's uh like same results but different cause so so yeah i think i think it's interesting when we were talking about whether we should have like a non-alcoholic

• Speaker #1

  wine um i would agree with you the sparkling tea would make more sense than a non-alcoholic wine because it's just like okay If I don't drink alcohol, then maybe then not drink alcohol.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. Like I respect the stuff about non-alcoholic wine, but to me, it's pretty market anomaly. And I find it super weird. Like all the process you need to follow to lend to a product that is not necessarily super good or like...

• Speaker #1

  When you strip out the alcohol, you strip out the body, the texture.

• Speaker #0

  I would prefer drinking something that is fully non-alcoholic from the beginning, like sparkling tea or whatever. Yeah, exactly. You know, it's very nice. I enjoy it. Rather than drinking a non-alcoholic wine. So, the exception is non-alcoholic beer. This I kind of like.

• Speaker #1

  Okay, non-alcoholic beer, I tried several times. I thought it actually tastes quite good. Wine, hardly.

• Speaker #0

  Wine, the few times I tasted, I'm like, this is not what I like. So. You described that you are present in the Museum of Wine in Bordeaux. Do you try to exchange things with... So, you know, you said that at the beginning of the adventure of Chinese wines, there was very little knowledge and very little equipment available for you in China. Do you see it the other way around now? Do you start having like Western winemakers or Western people coming to China to see how...

• Speaker #1

  how you're doing to like try to take knowledge from you or not yet when i first started because there's no other thing to follow and i that back in the days there's already like bodo is like the top place like anybody in the industry will consider that's a place that you will have to finally like pilgrimage that you have to go and so a lot of the decision i made was based on the fact that would a shuttle in Bordeaux do? I remember I talked to Jean-Michel Cass from Lynch Barge. It was a very kind person that willing to share a lot of things. And I asked him, so did you always wanted to be running the business? He said, of course not. Bordeaux back in the days was difficult. Anybody wanted to make a good living will go somewhere else. And I didn't know because the time when I knew Bordeaux, Bordeaux is already like... But then one day I was walking in Bordeaux City and suddenly I realized that my thinking of modeling after Bordeaux Chateau is completely stupid. First of all, history is different. Mark is different. You know, customers is different based on what that you think that is relevant. But I did actually think a lot of, my thinking was like using that. And also a lot of,

• Speaker #0

  a lot of producers from outside of China came to China back in the days because the market was so attractive. So oftentimes it's like they came to China because of the market. And every time I visit wineries because I want to understand, they were like, okay, are you going to flood your wine into our market because China? Or are you going to buy our chateau? Either one of the two questions. And then, yeah, but nowadays I think that people come. For example, I think they find our social media very interesting. Our direct-to-consumer channel platform is fascinating. And then we, of course, do a lot of technical exchange. We worked with Coopridge for years, maybe 20-something years. They especially did a barrel style for us. And then it worked so well that that particular barrel style is... in their portfolio selling to their other clients, not in China.

• Speaker #1

  Today, what do you use as barrel? It's locally made? No,

• Speaker #0

  we are using mostly French, a little bit of American. So different forests, mostly medium toast.

• Speaker #1

  Is that China?

• Speaker #0

  We did experiment before, but I think that it still has a long way to catch up. The consistency is a problem. And also, I guess when we experimented back in the days, it's very rough. I think they may not have air dried long enough as well. But maybe things change. I haven't looked into it.

• Speaker #1

  When we talk about it, that's how you understand how deep the wine industry can be. Because, you know, you see a bottle on the table, but behind that, there is like the agent distributor, winemaker. And then behind them, there is the guys providing the plans, the guys catching.

• Speaker #0

  I think one of the things that I find wine still very attractive is that this is the only beverage in the world that have a birth certificate. Right. You know, the year, you know, the grape type, you know, where it's born, you know. So other beverages. don't have the same thing. So that makes wine very attractive.

• Speaker #1

  That's true. Do you have some memories of drinking a bottle of wine with your father?

• Speaker #0

  Yes. That was another interesting experience. I remember there was a table of maybe 12 people. My dad sat opposite to me. There was... other other host's friends i think um his friends friends and um that was uh when everybody well okay i drink lafite right the days okay and so one of the guys was like oh i only drink lafite i don't drink other thing and i was like super arrogant so i was like pissed i was like okay oh why do you like lafite but like oh it's a great bottle of wine it's very expensive then i continue to drill him so you So it's really the price tag that you are interested in. What about the taste? What do you like about? What grape do you think that is interesting for you? Then my dad was like blinking. It's like, stop talking, stop talking, right? And then I was still continuing. My dad then text me, shut up. So that was actually most memorable.

• Speaker #1

  And did this guy try the Grace vineyard in the end?

• Speaker #0

  I don't remember. I don't remember. I just remember being young and rude.

• Speaker #1

  um today you also do some spirits so you brought us a bottle of gins but uh can you tell us a bit more about the adventure behind that so we we um when i after being in grace vineyard for for so many years um all the time i want to make the winery smaller and

• Speaker #0

  every time when people ask me oh yeah i want to make it more boutique more no and then continue to lift the quality and things like that But then I realized the problem is that my young team, because most of my team members, even now, is in their 30s. So if you make it smaller, they have no future. So we are not retiring soon. But I still think it's a very limited, good location for vineyard. And I thought, okay, what about doing spirit? And that's why we started to think about spirit. And whiskey was the first one that I thought about doing. And when I was ski, when I was ski. whiskey distillery i realized a lot of people do gin and because fushan is a lot of botanicals tea so we decided to use only natural botanicals only handcraft um yeah

• Speaker #1

  It smells a bit of jasmine, no?

• Speaker #0

  It's jasmine.

• Speaker #1

  Okay.

• Speaker #0

  It's jasmine tea.

• Speaker #1

  I'm...

• Speaker #0

  You're talented, right?

• Speaker #1

  I'm so talented in this job.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah.

• Speaker #1

  Maybe it's written, but I swear to you, I didn't see jasmine. Yeah, I know, I know.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, so because the gin is... People in China doesn't understand what's gin, and they don't know what's juniper berries. If you tell them London dry, they don't understand what you're talking about. So I want to make something that they're familiar. When they taste it, they can tell. I personally love osmanthus so we did osmanthus as well I love hoffrand so we make it small bottle because only natural botanicals once it's open if you don't drink it within like half a year I think that it still will affect it a bit and it's very practical for the back pocket so it's always yes I thought that's the whole purpose um

• Speaker #1

  How would you drink jasmine gin? Do you do it in cocktails or just for...

• Speaker #0

  I don't... We don't do cocktail. That's why we don't sell to bar. I drink it with soda water.

• Speaker #1

  Okay.

• Speaker #0

  And with hawthorn, I would just add ice. I don't do tonic. One, I don't like sweet taste. Secondly, I think tonic cover. I think you can drink neat. So you can try a bit. But I would think if you try neat first, add a bit of... sparkling soda water, the aroma will open up. I think it's very, very clean.

• Speaker #1

  I will try a little bit. 41%?

• Speaker #0

  Okay.

• Speaker #1

  If Marine can give me the sparkling water, that would be nice. Just a little bit. You want to? Oh,

• Speaker #0

  I'll do it myself. Thank you. Yes. Let's be sober in front of the camera first.

• Speaker #1

  So you start this... 2018. This product, 2018. Okay, and you sell as well, mostly on the domestic market for this product?

• Speaker #0

  But gin is actually something I think can be different. Because I think gin, I know the market is very saturated, but tea from China is a very acceptable concept in Europe and the US. And we are from the tea area. So an authentic tea-flavored gin. from direct from the farm because we sourced the tea from the farm right that makes sense right other than the lemon the usual that kind of flavor you have something that is very asian flavor uh that might make people want to try very

• Speaker #1

  good i i like it a lot it's a the perfume is crazy because i i diluted it a lot because i just wanted to to have you know the taste and and the feeling of it but it's very good because they're yeah the it's Delicate, but I really feel the flower in my mouth. Yeah,

• Speaker #0

  and it's very great for someone like Hong Kong, right? It's just chills, a lot of ice, maybe lemon. It's just easy.

• Speaker #1

  A bit earlier, you said that we are not retiring soon. And so if we don't offer growth to people, they will just leave. I think this is pretty true. One of the things I've witnessed in some estates in China is the ability to create and launch products you on a short cycle. So like what I mean by that is you started in 2002. Now you also have gin, whiskey, like you're doing plenty of things. I've seen people in China doing sparkling, doing cider, doing like, you know, doing plenty of things. I think this is something we have a bit of trouble in Europe to do is that estates produce, like if I have a wine estate, I should produce wine, period. And it's not like I actually have a company that is making wine at the moment, but that the goal is to delight the consumer. You see what I mean? Or create a beverage that the consumer will like. So do you feel also this difference? And are you conscious of it?

• Speaker #0

  I think there's always a coin on both sides, right? There's always plus and minuses to everything. The great thing about Europe is the tradition, the history, and it also then comes with baggage. If your family had been like sixth generation making wine, it's just kind of hard to sort of, okay, I'm not going to make wine only. I'll make something else. I'm not doing my grandfather recipe. I'll do something else. I think that is harder.

• Speaker #1

  We don't have that kind of constraint.

• Speaker #0

  So literally, you can think of anything, then you can try to do it. Less regulation sometimes may not be a bad thing. But I can understand when you have a long tradition. it is a bit harder.

• Speaker #1

  How do you see the future of Chinese wines? So it's a very vast question. So you said that it came from a few estates to now 100,000 labels. When we are in a market like that, and there is a decrease in consumption, usually the market consolidates and there are fewer actors, the more serious they are. Do you think something like that will happen?

• Speaker #0

  I think there will be adjustment anyway. I mean, it has to be. in all markets like this. When it goes up, everybody jumps into it and then there is like oversupply and then somebody gets kicked out from the market and consolidated and different things. So I'm sure that will happen to China. It's just a normal business cycle when things happen. But I think that I'm optimistic in a sense that there will, wine will still be, Chinese wine will still be on the menu. That we wouldn't... the category won't disappear and in fact a lot of places restaurant hotel will have now two pages of chinese wine different region and so that will exist but how many players will remain will become a question and let the market choose i think yeah i think ultimately is that you just have to keep on seeing how to survive right the one of the thing that helps a lot

• Speaker #1

  like france europe in general even the the us is the appellation system so you know having like specific places specific grades specific rules this is something that is not present so far in in china if tell me if i'm wrong but i feel like you can just make wine and like can do whatever one you you want um is it something that you see

• Speaker #0

  starting popping up or like discussions about that about classification some places already started this discussion this is very scary okay absolutely don't do it because you don't even know where to plan and what to plan so how do you classify it so you still think it's it's too early too early way too early i mean we are still learning how to walk let's not run now and especially let's not have someone telling you that this is how you're supposed to do that's very scary hopefully not it's true that the the monks in burgundy too

• Speaker #1

  1000 years to to do it so so i guess if you started this adventure yeah we only are we are only 30 years right so um how do you see the future for grace vineyard then it's a it's a maybe not easier question to understand than the the two um um answer than the avenue of chinese wines i think it's actually um for me i hope we stay in the market in the

• Speaker #0

  as a player and then continue to make better product. The honest truth is that when we first came to the market, we are new kid on the block. We are creative. We are approachable. We're very different than any other Chinese wine. Our quality is so different. When you open our wine versus our competitors, you can immediately tell, even if you are not a drinker. And honestly, nowadays, because of improvement, even though we also improve quite a bit, but other producers are also quite good I think I keep joking with friends. You have to find a really poorly made wine and really horrible packaging in China. It's difficult. Someone can do it. That is like a genius. No, nobody can. I think it's tough. So even now, actually not even now, when you put a wine with other producer in China and blind taste, I also question, can I really always tell this is my wine? And the other challenge that I think that we face is because we are 30 years. In China, yes, it's long, but you're not as long as European producer, but then you're not new. And the feeling I have when I moved to Shanghai is that when you talk to people, oh, Grace Minyao, definitely heard of it. Good wine, but I haven't had for a long time. So how do you like, it's like you are a movie, like a child actress. And then you were very popular when you were a child. And then during your teenager, you haven't transformed into a superstar. And then it's kind of embarrassing. So right now we are in that position because you're not new anymore. There's many more people who are newer than you. They're younger than you. And we have a baggage because Grey's Anatomy represents a certain image. We can't do... There's some packaging I would not touch. And I have... distributor asking me, can you change your packaging? Then I was like, do you ask a... European winery should change their packaging, why would you ask me to do it? But I understand where they're coming from because they see so many new producers with very interesting packaging. But for us, it's like, okay, for example, our iconic wine, Deep Blue, is so iconic, I can't change it. So yeah, so this is where the stage I'm in.

• Speaker #1

  So how do you get out of this stage?

• Speaker #0

  I don't know. That's why I think that's a question that when you asked me about the question about future, I'm thinking about... now how do how do i get out of that uh how do we rejuvenate the brand or how do we get reconnected or or um or let people like think about us the good thing is a lot of the song or a lot of people in the industry the first chinese wine they try is grace grace so there is a emotional connection there it's just that and and you know wine is a emotional product You often drink because you have been in the winery, it's your friend, you love the label, whatever. Hardly just for the liquid itself. So I just need to figure that out. I haven't figured it out yet.

• Speaker #1

  Maybe it will be the next Harvard business case. Yeah,

• Speaker #0

  next project I should talk to AI about.

• Speaker #1

  Maybe. I'm not sure AI could solve that yet.

• Speaker #0

  They have a lot of it. AI provide a lot of emotional support.

• Speaker #1

  That's true. Talking to Claude rather than talking to someone else. Thank you. It was a very interesting conversation. Trying to look at Marine to see if she validates the podcast. I think we talked a lot about this. Do you have one fun memory at Grace vineyard?

• Speaker #0

  The first memory, fun memory and also embarrassing, you know, the great thing about American education and then an investment bank is that they both experience taught me that you can challenge nature. You know, we used to be told that you can do one person can do three people job. That's why you work until 3 a.m. in the morning. So when I run the winery... I used this approach. I didn't know how big is 60 hectares. Our vineyard is 60 hectares. I didn't know that, how big it is. I have no concept of it. And then one of my vineyard manager came to me and say, boss, we have to decide whether we need to pick because it's going to rain. I said, don't worry. Everybody bring an umbrella. We can shield the vines. And then the manager said, Which role do you want us to shield? So that was the early man move.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, that's true that you must see a massive spread of culture between investment banking and wine.

• Speaker #0

  Very different, completely different. I mean, we were already on using BlackBerry and voicemails. Have you heard about BlackBerry?

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, I heard about that. It was very fancy when I was in high school.

• Speaker #0

  Okay, so we were already using BlackBerry and voicemail. in the winery, there's still fax. Not only fax, after they fax to you, they will call you and say, I just sent you a fax.

• Speaker #1

  That's pretty funny. It's funny because BlackBerry was really a thing when I was in high school. Like the cool kids had a BlackBerry. Marine had a BlackBerry. I didn't.

• Speaker #0

  I still love BlackBerry. I mean, it's just so much easier to type on BlackBerry than on your iPhone.

• Speaker #1

  We should bring this back at the end.

• Speaker #0

  It was really fast to type on BlackBerry.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, we should bring this back. Now we are all on the iPhone. thank you very much Judy for having me for this discussion that was amazing come to visit us 100%

• Speaker #0

  we would love to we would love to do it we will have to wait a little bit but that could be a very nice trip once we have our we have because in order to get my daughters to come visit me and then now my nephews we have a lot of kids facilities in the winery bicycle tricycle painting on bottle fruit picking you

• Speaker #1

  a high-end seek a tent in the vineyard you know that's crazy yeah then so you have like a reception facilities around the we have 11 guest rooms I can show you a picture later okay I can actually send you a picture as well yeah 100% send me pictures we'll add it to the article yeah we'll send it to the project it's a lot 11 rooms it's not that big but it's pretty big when you compare to Europe or that

• Speaker #0

  type of thing and everyone room starts to be like yeah i think i think um it's uh because we are in the middle of nowhere and the my when my dad built the winery he built it for the family and it's great now it becomes a place that the family would gather even though for example my nephews they actually live in Indonesia they would go to the winery at least twice a year that's their favorite place so

• Speaker #1

  it's sweet yeah cool place to gather the family and to meet your relatives amazing I would love to discover this place thank you very much I have three last questions that are traditional the first one is do you have a book recommendation for me

• Speaker #0

  Yes, but can I say it on camera?

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, yeah.

• Speaker #0

  I think it's called Only the Red Flower Blooms by Emily something. Let me see.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, you can check it.

• Speaker #0

  It just came out. Actually, it came out last year.

• Speaker #1

  Okay.

• Speaker #0

  And then it got two bookstores closed down in Hong Kong.

• Speaker #1

  Okay, so we'll have a look into this book and we'll put the link in the description. Do you have a recent tasting that you liked? Something that you tasted recently and that was very nice?

• Speaker #0

  Wine, whiskey, whatever. Oh, our own whiskey tasting, which is quite surprising. Because we are quite warm. So our two years are pretty much like Scotland eight years. But unfortunately, the angel shares as a result is also higher. I recently tasted out two years, wine barrels, gracing up wine barrels, Shiraz barrels. I thought that was quite good. I was like, okay, wow. So we might be able to bottle it already.

• Speaker #1

  All right. Very, very interesting. And last one, who is the next person I should interview?

• Speaker #0

  My friend who has a winery in Xinjiang. I find her contact. I said to you. Because her experience is also quite interesting. Her winemaker is an Italian guy. She also took over from her father. So we have a lot of shared experience. And I honestly think their wines are really quite good. I love their white wine particularly.

• Speaker #1

  And I would love to discover Xinjiang. It's part of the places that not a lot of people have experienced when they talk about China. And I love these places. And it looks like... wonderful region to to explore so yeah we'd love to go there um thank you very much Judy thank you very much for taking the time so happy that uh we got to sat down together and to do this interview um if you guys like this interview don't forget to share it and to subscribe try to discover grace vineyard uh i guess one of the way you can do it is to visit china then then you will have zero trouble finding it yeah we can we can also deliver overnight to your hotel overnight to your hotel in china so this is a this is something pretty nice otherwise so musee des vins de bordeaux bordeaux wine museum uh and i guess in a few tables uh here and there you can potentially find them uh but otherwise just come to hong kong and china you will um thank you very much thank you uh Judy and uh and see you next time uh adios all right thank you