Transcription

• Speaker #0

  Ad Infinitum is the award-winning podcast solely focused on audio ads, the creatives who make them, and or the latest thinking that informs them, how the space is evolving, and my favorite part, a roundup of recent audio ads with analysis by yours truly, Stu Redwine, and each episode's guest. This is season three, episode 10 of Ad Infinitum titled, Shelby from the Future. Today we bring on someone who has helped shape not just my thinking, but the very creative strategy DNA of Oxford Road, Shelby Hayden Craig is one of the most original and clearest thinkers I know. Welcome to the show, Shelby.

• Speaker #1

  Thanks, dude. It's a pleasure to be here with you in person.

• Speaker #0

  I know, this is amazing. This has been a long time coming and the first time we've met in person after five years of working together. And I was thinking of doing it on video, but as you can see, listeners, you cannot see my right tooth. My front right tooth is like chipped. What do I look like? What does it look like,

• Speaker #2

  Shelby?

• Speaker #1

  Oh, it looked like you tripped and hit a curb with your face.

• Speaker #0

  A long time ago, it kind of did. And it finally broke apart again. I just PSA for the listeners. Don't try to open things in the kitchen with your teeth. This episode title, Shelby from the future, is tied to a couple of things. One, you, Shelby, live and work in Sydney, Australia. So you're always ahead of us. And we make. a big to-do out of that on calls and zoom calls and it helps in getting the work done i mean so it's like it's kind of fun it's nice packaging it's like he's in the future what are the stock tips but then it's also like you actually are in the future so we can send you stuff at the end of our day and then you're working overnight which is your day and it is incredibly handy and also getting that jump on the work week yeah i'm usually working on your sunday my monday exactly but yeah it's good working in the future there's that what's that quote

• Speaker #1

  you don't need to worry about today because it's already tomorrow in Australia. I think that's why you guys don't have to worry sometimes because I'm always on it tomorrow.

• Speaker #0

  Think about that. What you just said is really actually, there's a whole lot to that. Don't worry about today because it's already tomorrow in Australia. Like on the planet, it is two days at the same time.

• Speaker #1

  Yep.

• Speaker #0

  Just, it starts to really mess with our perception of kind of everything. What day did a thing happen?

• Speaker #1

  There's a lot of confusion around my birthday usually.

• Speaker #0

  Well, because your family's like here.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, I wake up and get nothing. And then like, it's not your birthday yet. It's tomorrow. I'm here though.

• Speaker #0

  I always think of that though. I think of like, just, you know, we're on this planet. It's like, we zoom out. Like my biggest hope, somebody asked me like, what's your biggest hope for the future? Is that mankind becomes interstellar?

• Speaker #3

  Just to look up in the sky.

• Speaker #0

  Like that is my biggest hope, is that we expand across the entire universe. And that's so much of what you do. It's like zooming out, like zooming out. If you really zoom out, it's always two days on the earth.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  That's actually the truth.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, it's true.

• Speaker #0

  Okay.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  All right. Well, that's interesting. Just one. Right. Okay.

• Speaker #1

  It's an interesting insight.

• Speaker #0

  Isn't it? And that's what we do like all the time. So the other thing is you're on the cutting edge. You're ahead of everyone else on the project. And what I really respect is that you help pull people up to a higher way of thinking. I know you have for me and you do it in a very humble, you do two things. So one, you are very humble and you mentioned the tools and you exhibit the right way, like a judo master. Like you're showing it, but you also are firm. Like you are still able to be firm in like not immediately giving up on your position. It's almost like an Aikido thing. That idea of like redirection. But it's because you are Shelby from the future. You've been to the higher ground. I really do believe that. You do think of it on a higher level. And so you can gracefully and artfully help lead people there.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. And I think they're two important characteristics of. creatives and strategists and people that do the kind of work we do. I think you have to stay humble, which is just another way to stay stupid really at the end of the day. Like you have to stay curious if you want to call it that, but like you can't assume you know everything as a creative person or a strategic person because what is there to learn if you think that?

• Speaker #0

  There's a great quote. I just went through this whole thing studying Aikido and I can't remember the guy that said it right offhand, but it's you have to give up your attachment to being right.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, absolutely. So there's that, but it's kind of on, they're on opposite ends, right? You have to be humble and stupid and willing to learn. But on the other end, you have to be confident in what you're doing because everyone's looking at you for the answer. And if you're not confident in it, if you back down quickly, it's going to fall down. So you have to stand up for thinking or the work or whatever it is. If you're not standing up for it, it's going to die. So you've got to be that person that has that confidence. And that's kind of like where the artist is. I think if you look at artists as well, they're always curious, but at the same time, they believe deeply in what they're doing and you kind of have to, you know, it takes a lot to pull them out of that.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. That's a tough balancing act. You do it very well.

• Speaker #1

  Thank you.

• Speaker #0

  But that's a tough one. Cause it's like people, either me, I guess we'll talk about me. It's like, I either just go, it's not worth it or get defensive or, you know,

• Speaker #1

  Well, it's easy to get defensive as you create stuff, right? Cause it comes from you.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah.

• Speaker #1

  It hurts a bit when it doesn't land and you're like, Oh, like, cause you put your. I mean, I don't think there's a good creative out there that doesn't care.

• Speaker #0

  You know, I will say this is a kind of a consequence of this AI stuff that I'm experiencing. I'll tell me what you think. But it's like pre where we are right now, where it's like mass adoption and very universal understanding of like people of all ages, knowing that you can pretty much go to chat GBT and ask anything. You're not getting a Google search back. You're getting a thoughtful answer. I mean, it's not thinking, but you know, whatever. Okay. Here's my point. Every creative now has been put on notice. And I mean this in a good way, actually. Maybe a way to think of it is like, let's say we were all getting together, you and me and all the creatives at Oxford were getting together to put on a play or something. And one of the people gets on stage and I go, hey, try 10 different ways you could come into that room. Because the character is going to come into the room and they do two and they go, oh, that's all I got. I'm like, well, what do you mean? There's a door and there's a window. That's it. And it's kind of understandable.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. And often those concepts might be the only concepts. Whereas If they were at the beginning of their career, I guarantee whoever they were working for, it happened to me, it probably happened to you, you respond to it or breathe. You know, your creative director or whoever you're working for at the time tells you, come to me with 10 ideas. You give them the 10 ideas, he crumples them up and throws them in the trash. Okay, now start working. Right. Because those are the obvious. Those are the ones that you need to get through to get to the other stuff.

• Speaker #0

  I can remember we pitched LendingTree and the guy over there, Todd Lauer, is awesome. All right. And so we were doing like audio and TV. It was pre you, you would have loved it. And we beat it to death. Okay. And I think we presented like 54 ideas. It was me and Dan. So you can imagine. So it was a spreadsheet. Okay. But this is what was crazy. Todd's cool. Like Todd's super cool. Super cool. Big standup comedy guy, like super cool guy. And he sat there and he let us present it all like 54 ideas. I swear it was like 50, 55 ideas, something like that. He's like, oh, those are good. Yeah, so good. He's like, yeah, you know, maybe two of those I haven't heard before.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, because the obvious stuff comes to the forefront.

• Speaker #0

  I even want to say, though, that was after us even thinking we'd worked on it hard, which makes your point even further down the line. Like, you really got to work.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, you do. You have to put in the effort because the good stuff is connecting the dots between the things that nobody else expected. So, I mean, a good use of AI is to anyone listening that is working on ideas. Yeah, put the brief or whatever it is into it. Get those 20 whatever and put those on the do not present list because those will be the ones that are too obvious and everyone will do. Then keep going.

• Speaker #0

  I think that's great. That's a great idea because that's kind of what it was. I mean, it just blew my mind. I just remember he goes so gracefully, humbly. He's like, yeah, maybe, maybe, maybe two of those I haven't seen. He's like, we've been pitched by everybody. Yeah. And you're like, man, that was my best stuff. You know, and then what's funny with that one is we ended up doing founder spokesperson. You know, I guess there was an insight in that, Shelby. I'd like to get your thought. Because like I said, it's like I've always had to rely on other people. And hopefully, you know, AI helps me to like understand my own thinking. They'd had a Jim Henson puppet licensed. Lenny.

• Speaker #4

  Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  And Lenny had an attitude. Lenny is a straight talker. And it was like, well, what's that based on? Like, what was his personality? What was he based on? Oh, our founder. Oh, so it's basically your founder as a Muppet. But you don't say it's the founder's a Muppet. It's not easy. being green what if we just let your founder be who he is yeah and that's what we ended up doing which is like so i don't know that's an insight but it blew my mind it was a moment when we were talking to them i was like so lenny's doug and they were kind of like yeah he's he's stuck and i was like oh why don't we not abstract

• Speaker #1

  yeah anyway you're connecting to that i mean it is kind of uh that's the feeling you want when you want to know if it's a good insight you want the uh i haven't thought about it that's exactly what that's the response that's the response you want because all an insight is is something everyone knows but doesn't notice right they know it they probably they knew it deep down oh that's funny but they didn't notice you told them hey look at this look that's doug That's like good comedy.

• Speaker #0

  We should have done a spot where he ripped the head off and he revealed it was done. Like that would have taken it to the next level. For sure. That would have been a good idea.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. Difference there though, between the idea and the insight. The insight's the thing that everyone knows, but doesn't notice. The idea is what you do with it. But you need the insight to get to the idea.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. And I mean, there's plenty out there about like what isn't an insight. And I don't get too pressed about that because it's like, let people use words however they want.

• Speaker #1

  Sure. Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  Because the point is good work.

• Speaker #1

  The point is good work. But don't give me a 30 page deck on insights.

• Speaker #0

  Nope.

• Speaker #1

  It should be a sentence.

• Speaker #0

  That's one statement.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. I mean, people get, you know, we've been in this business long enough and have seen enough briefs. Nine times out of 10, the insight in the brief is just an observation. That's okay. Observations are good. Insight's just what you did with it next. And you need those. You need the observations.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, it starts there. I mean, the point is just to do the work takes work.

• Speaker #1

  And insight is work. It's hard. It's the place everyone stumbles on the brief. You know, I was right in there. Tell me something about the problem in a new way. Or I think one time I prompt people, now flip the problem on its head. Or, you know, the thing I just told you a second ago. Tell me something everyone knows, but nobody notices. Everyone's like, what? Yeah. Because it doesn't just, it doesn't exist anywhere. You have to make it. Like, that's the hard part. Like, you can't find it somewhere. Like, you don't, you can't search it. You can't, I know I haven't seen that many good insights coming out of AI yet. But, you know, maybe there will.

• Speaker #0

  I've thrown some stuff in there to try to get it to like, try to pair it, but it doesn't, you know, it's kind of the same with writing. If anything, it gets me a little further down the road.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. Because it just pulls what's out there. And I think that's the limitation between AI and, and insight is creative. I would say at the end of the day, it's a creative act. And that's, you know, it's not creating the new and novel by laterally jumping. That's the hard part. It's getting, for everyone listening, I'm holding up my arms. And there's like two lanes. AI usually is, you know, following a path. But to get to the other one, that's the jump that you need to take. Have you read any of Edward de Bono's stuff before? It's kind of like the godfather of creativity. I'm going to make him an offer he can't refuse. I have a quote from him. He says, creativity involves breaking out of established patterns in order to look at things in a different way.

• Speaker #0

  That's what we're talking about.

• Speaker #1

  That's what we're talking about. And that's, AI is not really doing different yet. Because it's pulling from what exists.

• Speaker #0

  And it might get there.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, it might.

• Speaker #0

  But we're already there. If we choose to be, we have the opportunity.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. Don't shy away from the work. He said it takes work to get to the work.

• Speaker #0

  It does.

• Speaker #1

  You try to shortcut it. You're shortchanging the creative act.

• Speaker #0

  So give me an example of an insight.

• Speaker #1

  First, I think the best place to look for insights is in stand-up comedy.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. Like everything you're talking about to me is the way all the best jokes work.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  That's exactly it. Like, I mean, there's Seinfeld. It's like, you know, the thing is with...

• Speaker #1

  like he's doing that but then like chapelle is who i think i mean the goat his whole payoff at the end is you go oh yeah that's every joke every good joke but if you want to learn how to write insights if you want to learn how to craft them study medians because they're the masters of taking something that everyone knows but not noticing it in that way okay so shane mcgillis has a great one where he does it's about racism and

• Speaker #0

  he talks about how he kind of thinks it's like being hungry. And he's like, you know, I wasn't really feeling racist until a hamburger cut me off on the freeway.

• Speaker #1

  So good.

• Speaker #0

  Right? Like that's a hot button topic. But I'm like, I had never thought of racism like a passing state.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. This other comedian, he was talking about the difference of when the doorbell rings when we were kids versus today. When we were kids, the doorbell rings. It's like a celebration. Come on in. Somebody's here. This is exciting. We have a visitor. And today it's like. shut the blinds who the fuck's here you know like you know it's like it's a threat today it's a threat yeah and that again we all know this we all know that it was great when we were kids but we're not connecting the dots again signs of great insight it's just it's that yeah and you've said before it's like it's not an insight but i guess it's where the insight goes is that ultimately then you want to express it in an idea of saying something in a way that hasn't been said before or saying something that hasn't been said before am i butchering that tell me something i haven't heard before or In a way I haven't seen or heard it.

• Speaker #0

  Right. So racism I hadn't heard of in thinking of it through the lens of hunger is actually really helpful.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. That frames it for you.

• Speaker #0

  Right. And thinking through the response to the door is empathetic and how, cause you're kind of Like you're nostalgic for when it was exciting.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  Like, what did we leave behind?

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. Why are we this way now?

• Speaker #0

  So let's try to do it. So we'll observe a human behavior. So I was driving down the five freeway to get here. And I'll just tell you my story. Maybe we'll get an insight out of it. So I put in the destination where we are here in Van Nuys, California at Quest Pacifica Studios. And I remember I looked across down at the five because it's like a bridge across. I was like, oh, and I saw how backed up it was. And then I intuitively went up to the old road, which is like a two lane that you can take to kind of avoid the five. But at the end of the day, ultimately, you have to go through the new hall pass either way. So my observation was the five was backed up and I did my best to and other people did our best to avoid it by getting on the old road. Ultimately, though, we all ended up in the same backed up traffic in the new hall pass because there was only one way through. And then I will note, I was using Waze. Cause intentionally I'm like, I'm going to get around this. This was funny. This is true too. I thought Waze is going to tell me to go on the old road and not get on the five. Cause that looks like terrible and Waze, you know, knows that. And, but there's like two ways out of Santa Clarita, which is where I live. And it didn't, it like told me to go back from the five and I stayed on the old road. Yeah. I'm like, whatever. I'm going to.

• Speaker #1

  Cause you don't like sitting still. I know you.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So anyway, turning that into an insight, that's my story. Like how would you approach that? And I know we're doing this really quick, but in general, like how do you think through then turning that into an insight? Like that's the behavior that we're observing.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. So like as a driver, you're getting in a car to go somewhere to move. So when it stops inherently, it feels uncomfortable because you're trying to go somewhere and you're not moving. So, but you are willing to take a roundabout way to get there. As long as you're moving, if you're driving, as long as you're moving, you could still deal with the suffering. You know, you still get there at the same time probably because ways always lies to as we know.

• Speaker #0

  the counter always goes up ways is the tease that tells you hey come over here come on let me tell you something yeah follow and then disappoints you i heard one guy break it down he was like map quest is like printed directions like go five miles take a left you know google maps was like you know updating we found a better route would you like to take it ways is drive through that guy's yard erratic and irrational you're taking the observation of that behavior of like I wanted to take an alternate route. I'm using ways to make an alternate route. The insight is I will take more pain as long as I'm moving.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, you'll feel less separate as long as you're moving forward. And there's something insightful in that. It's not right yet. You know, I think insights take a lot of writing and crafting, but there's something in that truth of human behavior, especially when driving. As long as you're moving, you feel like you're going forward, even if it still hurts.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, I think that's starting to sound right. That sounds in the direction of like the work we've done together where it's like that's starting to sound like a truth.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah,

• Speaker #0

  we would figure out a way to phrase it. And there's something underneath that, that then I always feel like there's a piece of insight work. That's a piece of comedy, actually, too, which is like compassion.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  And like, we're just people were flawed, like all the best diamonds have a flaw lab grown diamonds don't have flaws, real diamonds do. So we have these flaws, we make mistakes. And it's like, that's okay.

• Speaker #1

  And that's why insight work is so important in any sort of advertising, because you're just talking to people at the end of the day.

• Speaker #0

  So if it was a customer, like if this was, we were breaking down a persona for some, and I like actually that we're not starting with a product with this idea. It's just a story of a behavior. It's like, oh, people are willing to put up with more inconvenience as long as they perceive they're still moving towards their goal, which I just use too many words and too many syllables.

• Speaker #1

  And maybe even tack something onto the end of it, like a question, but which route was actually harder?

• Speaker #0

  Right. There we go. Like now we're talking.

• Speaker #1

  That's where you make someone think about something in a new way. Like, would it have been easier just to sit on the five, even though it was going slow and listen to whatever you're listening to and think about it rather than stressing out, trying to make every light and turn left and crazy traffic and all that stuff.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. It's like the perception of progress beats out sitting still.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. The false progress.

• Speaker #0

  Slow and steady wins the race. See, somebody else had already said it. So let's talk about something we've seen audio do particularly well, B2B advertising. My personal theory is that because B2B products are often more conceptual, they lend themselves to an audio environment. So like when you're talking about an ERP solution or even e-commerce, like that's actually a concept, right? It's not a physical thing that I can describe. So it is my personal theory is that like that then, okay, that's in the mind more and hearing is in the mind more. not outside, you know, so I'm, it lends itself towards that. There's also a lot of people in business listening and most business purchase cycles take a long time and audio works better over time. There's a lot of research out there about that. So it's like audio has some inherent advantages when you look at B2B advertising.

• Speaker #1

  There's probably one more thing that I notice about B2B as well as that works with audio. It's a parallel. is people are especially the podcast people choose to listen to a podcast you know you pick a podcast it's not like you're just letting it come on most b2b situations they're typically looking for something they're seeking a solution to something they usually have clear defined problems that they might not know of but there's problems that they face yeah and so the target is predisposed to be receptive yeah they're seeking an answer yeah and it's like we have the answer yes

• Speaker #0

  So that's just so exciting. Like it is invigorating to me talking about insights. And when we start to actually break it, there's a feel.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah,

• Speaker #0

  there's a feel where it's like, I know we didn't get all the way there, but it's a completely different feel than just like transactional. Give me the brief. What's it like? We're actually working through it. So and a big part of that is just observation. And, you know, some I'm really proud that we did together is all the work we've done with Shopify. And that really started with some observation. And then the way that that ultimately came to life in audio. Can you tell me about that?

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, we've... been working with Shopify for a few years now. Awesome product. People love it. What do they use it for and what do they love most about it? Make some money. People love money, especially businesses. And one of the earliest things we help them with.

• Speaker #0

  I want to add something to that because I know you believe it. It does make them money. I know you already think this. It makes them money doing what they love.

• Speaker #4

  You can fail at what you don't want.

• Speaker #0

  So you might as well take a chance on doing what you love.

• Speaker #1

  Great point. Yeah, it's a way to take what they love and turn it into a way to survive, you know, a way to live and a way to succeed. You know, I think everyone's seeking success at the end of the day. But we helped them early on. You know, they identified a lot of their customers and their problems. And it all kind of came back to one thing is like people use Shopify to sell. You know, their whole thing is about selling, making money. That's what people are trying to do there. That's their ultimate goal. And we were playing around with the product. you know reading a lot of stuff on reddit reddit i think is a great place for insights because it's real people having real conversations and we're looking at some stuff and they have this cha-ching sound effect that plays when you get a sale and naturally everyone loves when they get a sale people loved the sound they were asking i think some of the reddit things just would say like i just love that sound that sound oh this is gonna feel good when you hear it cha-ching And you're in the other room, you hear your phone buzz and go cha-ching. That's how you know you're onto something or you know you're succeeding. And it's just something that their audience loved. And it's also something that's just associated with making money, a cash register cha-ching. Like you don't need to explain it. Everyone knows that means money. But they weren't using it in their ads, especially in audio. And we're like, people love this about you. It's your ultimate proposition.

• Speaker #0

  whatever you want to call whatever marketing term you want to use promise there you go promise it's the ultimate promise for people is that they'll sell something and make money solution yeah so use it in your ads so people build that association selling equals shopify shopify equals selling whatever way you want to stitch it it's one of those where like it feels like to me like in a fantasy movie or maybe a sci-fi movie where they're like we have this old crate from the planet shintai sea you know and they And it's like, that's the ancient elven super weapon. The blade is of elvish make. Yeah. Like they had this. It sounded too obvious. Well, and they'd even made a button. They'd made a cha-ching button.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  That like came and went. So yeah, I remember you found all that in the social listening. You know, we called it social listening. Just read reviews.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. Reading Reddit. Really? Reading people.

• Speaker #0

  And YouTube. I remember like you found some YouTube stuff where like people had the sound. Yeah. That means somebody's going to the trouble. to like record that sound or find that sound and play that sound and play that sound on repeat. You're like, you've got an observation.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. I think on my, the pitch presentation, that wasn't very long that we fed in there. I put in a YouTube clip that someone stitched together like six hours of to cheat. It was like, if someone loves it this much,

• Speaker #0

  that's what I was trying to say. And if I remember, like, I remember you noticed it and you brought it And then like with our powers combined, like I remember being very adamant on we can do this. We can include this in every live read. And that's where I feel like our forces came together.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, because my initial idea was, hey, use this in your audio ads, you know, mainly produced radio spots, etc. Use it as like a Sonic logo, you know, whatever you want to call it, a Sonic sign off, you know, signature. But you were like, hey, we could use this in podcast.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, let's go.

• Speaker #1

  And I was like, how? You're like, just just watch.

• Speaker #0

  And I remember like, that was funny because you could still get on the phone. I mean, you could today, but it's different now. But it was like talking to people like producers or even our friends over at Sirius XM, who I love, was like, OK, so we need you guys to use the sound effect in the read. And I, well, we don't do that. It's like, OK, like I'm looking at a soundboard right now. Shelby and I have a soundboard in the studio room. It's like I'm talking to the person on the phone. I'm like, do you have a soundboard? Can you look at your soundboard? Yeah. Do you see the programmable button? There's a pad with nine programmable buttons. Yeah. OK, so what you're going to do.

• Speaker #1

  you're gonna program this yeah is it you can do it yeah don't tell me you can't do it yeah but what was great about it is and you challenged me you were like okay find like 10 different ways we could use it in the scripts in fun ways and blah blah and only through like insightful thinking craft because i think that ultimately what you're talking about just there at the soundboard is craft it is you have a background in craft and audio so you speak the language that they speak so when they say no you could say well actually yes you can yeah let me tell you the butt let me show you how yeah you know which leads to good ideas and good work at the end of the day because there's craft and hair you know and you're able to make stuff that but it's still hard right it was a struggle to get it there it was but because you and i were both persistent about it yeah it worked well now it's a baseline like now it's table stakes but we had to fight and like gravity wanted to pull it out we

• Speaker #0

  then did do performance you know big thing we did was we were finally able to do like a good look at performance at a window of one quarter of like, so what? So this is great insight, the ka-ching, the fact that it's paying off massively in people's brains, the association's memory, great, but did it work? And what's nice is we were able to see over a quarter, every single read, and this is a significant buy that over a quarter out of three reads. So that's roughly, let's say one drop, one ad per month for three months. If they used it once, we saw a 13% performance improvement. and if they used it two or three times we saw a 30 performance improvement across the funnel so it had an impact yeah and it's nice to prove that you and i always knew it was going to work of course because of our experience one i knew it would work if you kept doing it like it works if you work it that's my view of the sonic branding stuff like you've got to commit yeah and you and i knew the market

• Speaker #1

  in science or whatever you want to call it we read all the studies before we even proposed this and we knew all this stuff yeah right like we had in our brain in our library of our brains we had yeah you know using stuff in repetition builds association that's good You know,

• Speaker #0

  there's an 86% correlation between somebody wanting to take an action and hearing a sound that they like.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. We knew in our brains that like something unexpected, you know, jolts them out.

• Speaker #0

  Exactly.

• Speaker #1

  Unexpected for the media channel jolts them out of their days or whatever. You know, we knew that there's some stat probably about that, but it was already in our brain. We didn't have to regurgitate it. We might have for the pitch.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, we probably did.

• Speaker #1

  And it's good to prove that it works because that backs up our intellect or, you know. Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  And also it's like set people up to have fun. Like there's so many reads where. hosts had fun. I can't remember. There's one where it was like all spooky and like they use the cha-ching over and over and over. It's like, it's like a sound coming from a distance and we've had fun with it. Like we did a 360 spot. We did cha-chings all around the world. Like it opened up a whole campaign. And then I thought what was really cool, the performance is really cool. The performance is the coolest. Everything else is icing on that cake. Was like you noticing you like sent me a TV spot and you're like, hey, look what they're using their TV now.

• Speaker #1

  If they want to use it, great. But I think all of that demonstrates it's a sign of a good idea as well. I feel like the fact that it's able to live on in other channels and other formats, it's inspiring hosts to do their thing, too. They get them excited. You could see which hosts actually care about us because they're the ones, you know, having fun with it. It's fertile and it's great that it grew and evolved into. all the things that it did. And I get the true sign of an idea. If it spurs more ideas, that's good.

• Speaker #0

  That's the real thing.

• Speaker #1

  If it kind of stops you, you're kind of like, it's probably might not be that rich. But if everyone's like, yeah, do this, do this, you're starting to get onto something. That's cool.

• Speaker #0

  Ideas beget ideas.

• Speaker #1

  They do.

• Speaker #0

  They have energy.

• Speaker #1

  Insights are a form of ideas. Strategy is a form of ideas. You know, it's all about that new and novel. The editor bonus says that, you know, it's all about, he has this other quote that I love. He says creativity gives us hope that there could be a worthwhile idea. It gives us the possibility of some sort of achievement to everyone. You know, it's like democratic in some ways and liberating.

• Speaker #0

  It's ideas. It's imagination.

• Speaker #2

  Imagination.

• Speaker #1

  It's great. Like you spark it. And that's why, you know, we've talked about this so much, but that's why I'm so passionate about people exploring their ideas and doing the hard work. Because when you get it, like when you have those moments of like, ah. It's probably one of the more rewarding parts of what we do. Just that feeling of it's kind of euphoric. It's kind of humbling.

• Speaker #0

  I've also experienced that it's like when we've really done our homework, I feel invincible.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  Like the pitch does not feel, I'm fearless.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. You don't need a script for the pitch.

• Speaker #0

  Because I know it's like we did it and we did our best and this is a good idea. And then it's like fearless. As opposed to earlier in my career, it would be, I got to do some jazz hands and just make sure they don't look over here and

• Speaker #1

  pull these levers and just get them to say yes yeah and that feeling is you know they're always at what's the common question how do you know it's going to work right that's always the question yes how do you know it's going to work if they feel that too they won't ask that question exactly like if you're getting that question how do you know it's going to work you haven't made the connection you haven't landed it and it probably won't You know what? I want to make sure other creatives understand this. It's not always your fault. It's your fault! Like, it could be a great idea that you have. Maybe you're given the wrong problem. Maybe you've been given the wrong audience. You know, maybe the brief isn't solving the business problem that the client actually has. You know, I think a lot of the stars need to align, right? And that's why good briefs matter. That's why good problems to solve matter. You know, that's why this is a team sport. It's not just about the creative, even though a lot of people put it on the creatives. When you onto a good idea, you know it. It just, it's not always your fault if it doesn't sell, I would say to other creatives.

• Speaker #0

  Well, and I'd say like a lot of what you and I do is pitches. Like I think we did dozens, you know, already this year. And I feel so much satisfaction just like doing that good pitch, having the tension map. Like we do this thing where we do a tension map where there's, you know, an audience truth, a brand truth, the tension that's created, and then an insight. And then we develop from that like strategy and develop this out into ideas. But it's just like, it's wild, man. Like someone may never see over the. eons of human history. No one, you know, basically is going to see a lot of the stuff you and I have done, but I feel good about it still.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  Cause I'm like, we did it.

• Speaker #1

  Cause we had to struggle through it.

• Speaker #0

  Well, and it's good. Well, I guess you're saying the struggles helps establish the value.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. We had to struggle through it. We had to go through those mental hurdles of like, is this good? I don't know if we've solved this yet. And then when you do, it feels better.

• Speaker #0

  I also feel just like I said, like bulletproof or invincible, like pick up any one of those pitches, flip to the creative section. That's good. Those are good ideas.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. They're all good.

• Speaker #0

  Based on what we had.

• Speaker #1

  A good parallel for people is like, if anyone loves any sort of exercise, you're a runner.

• Speaker #0

  Yes.

• Speaker #1

  You have to love the training to love the race. You know? Like, you have to be in it for the training.

• Speaker #0

  Yes.

• Speaker #1

  Not for the race.

• Speaker #0

  Well, the most successful actor I know, he's in tons of commercials, does a ton of commercials, and then a lot of photography. You've actually worked with him on stuff. He opened up to me and he was just like, well, my job's auditions. Yeah. He goes, sometimes I get to shoot. And that's pretty cool. But the job is auditions.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  Which is... I feel like the same thing you're saying.

• Speaker #1

  Exactly. Exactly the same. And you have to enjoy that part.

• Speaker #0

  Yes. And I've really come to enjoy being in the workshop and knowing I've done a good job. I also said, I shared with you earlier, like I've been doing more home projects. A lot of stuff I do, nobody notices. Nobody's seen. And I don't even just mean my family. I mean like guests, whatever. But like, I know that that thing up in the attic shelves I built in the attic. I did good.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. Cause you're a craftsman too.

• Speaker #0

  Right. So it's like now when I talk to the other junior creatives on the team and stuff like You have to be satisfied that you did your best work. I remember a friend of mine, you would love him. This guy, Corey Edwards, he's a film director. And I visited him when I moved out here like 12 years ago. He's at this place, Prana Studios. And it was the first time I'd really seen where they have all the stuff built up for these animated films that never got made. Okay, they've got the models, like painted full-size models, the artwork, all their pitch material. And Corey basically expressed me in that moment. I'm sure he said it in a very succinct way. Like, well, yeah, this is my job. I feel really good about these movies, all the movies he didn't make. you know and you got to make movies but it's like with us I think of all the ads we didn't make and it's like you have to feel good about that and be satisfied that you

• Speaker #1

  I can't remember who said this but this idea of like a well-written poem has it's like the click of a well-made box yeah exactly right it's really true you have to like that part of it and I think you identify good creative talent and strategic talent by people who relish in that process and And the ones who shy away from it, try to shortcut it. or maybe more focused on the fame at the end, or like you said earlier, just want to get it done. You know, they don't last.

• Speaker #0

  No, or they get negative. There's a lot of cynicism. I think there's going to be less now because of this AI stuff. Actually, I think it'll help, like what we were talking about earlier, like it'll help raise the bar for the people that love it. And then they now know there's no question they have to up their game, but they actually enjoy upping their game. So they will. So everybody wins. And the cynical types, it'll grind them out. Bye. Because if you create any friction, and I've said this to my team, I go, just know with an account manager or someone else that's using you as, you know, collaborating with you as a shared service, if you provide any resistance, good or bad, like I was praising that you stand your ground, which I still believe, you just have to know that person's going to go to chat GPT and ask what they just asked you. And you just got to be really confident. Pick your battles.

• Speaker #1

  For sure. I'm a believer. Advertising is a pretty negative industry.

• Speaker #0

  That's the part I don't like about it.

• Speaker #1

  I agree. Completely agree. But. there's a, it's counterproductive and counterintuitive because why do you think it is? You have to be optimistic to come up with good stuff. Like you can't be a cynic because like you said, ideas bring ideas. Like you have to jump from one thing to the next and only by being optimistic, can you jump?

• Speaker #0

  It is an optimistic proposition to jump from one thing to the next thing.

• Speaker #1

  You have to, otherwise you're going to fall.

• Speaker #0

  You wouldn't jump.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. You wouldn't jump. I mean, I think it's a negative industry because it's very critical and people get really critical of craft. And I also think advertising is full of creative people who don't want to be there. Every art director wants to be a director of photography.

• Speaker #0

  Well.

• Speaker #1

  Every copywriter wants to be a script writer.

• Speaker #0

  So let me tell you something for me. And you've known me five years. I say the first two years you knew me, I was going negative. I was burning out. You might not have perceived it, but I was on the inside. And I reached this point of acceptance. Like, you know what? I'm the head of creative at Oxford Road. Did I wake up one day when I got my teeth originally knocked out and when I was in fifth grade and see a vision? One day I want to be the head of creative at an audio performance. No, I wanted different things. Okay. At my age, right? It's like. The unlock for me that happened in the last, like, particularly three to four years. So right in the cusp of getting to know you, and I think you can probably mark a change with me, I bet about two to three years ago. For sure. Is where I made a decision to commit to my craft. And for a while, you've seen it in my Zoom calls, there's a painting behind me of Odysseus. And it's from the legend, which I'm stoked for, Christopher Nolan, right? It's coming out, the Odyssey. He burns this ore and he makes his deal with the gods and it goes, go inland where they won't even recognize an ore, burn the ore, and commit to your craft and your home and your wife.

• Speaker #3

  Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  And like, I had this moment, it was about three or four years ago. It was like, okay, what would a guy that was committed to this, committed to be the best at this do? What would he do? What would that character do? Well, he would listen to this. He would read this. He would do this. But it was like, I made a decision, man. And you've seen the fruit of that.

• Speaker #1

  For sure. You're so much more productive. I would say is number one, like you produce a lot, you know, creatives that don't produce get frustrated.

• Speaker #0

  So I'm contrasting that with the character you're saying is like, yeah, that is the recipe for. dissatisfaction and then resentment and then leaking that toxically on others is not accepting where you are like it's easier to be a bully right like there's a lot of bullies in advertising well and i think that what you're identifying those that is rooted in they don't want to be where they are yeah they wanted to be a

• Speaker #1

  director or a filmmaker i mean it's the whole reason why i mean i could pick grapes with advertising all day but like one of my biggest is how ad agencies call ads films right it's not a film like you want it to be a film because you want to, but you do, you want to go to Sundance and you want, you're like, you want it to be a film. Why do you think Khan's at Khan? You know, like.

• Speaker #0

  Well, and I heard a guy say once, he's like, you know, it's all a bunch of failed artists.

• Speaker #1

  Exactly.

• Speaker #0

  Which is one way of looking at it. You know what? The negative ones are that.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  But the positive ones are like, I guess that's one way to look at it. Another way to look at it is like, this is what I'm doing now. Well,

• Speaker #1

  the positive ones are either acceptance or they're making what they can out of it when they can, you know? Like, sure, there's the frustrated ones that get like, they just accept it and they get on. But like the positive ones are like, all right, this is the brief that I could make into something great.

• Speaker #0

  Just do it. You know,

• Speaker #1

  this is the brief I could put me into. Let's go. Or they're also like you and me and everyone else who's more positive. They're making stuff outside of work, too.

• Speaker #0

  Yes, that's helpful.

• Speaker #1

  Rick Rubin talks about how like your career doesn't have to be your passion, too. Like, you know, your art doesn't have to be your career. You should still make stuff for the act of making it.

• Speaker #0

  Well, okay. So like I did a fiction podcast in the last year, Vampire Slayers from Kansas.

• Speaker #1

  That's cool.

• Speaker #0

  Took over two decades. But it's funny. I would say like in this same three-year period I'm telling you about, there was a set of storyboards, okay, for this space epic called Rainfall City. All right. I stopped it around the same age. I just stopped.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  Four years ago, I finished it.

• Speaker #1

  And how did it feel?

• Speaker #0

  Amazing. And that was it. And now it's like, there's this like assembly line. where I'm like, oh, I'm going to do that. I'm going to, I'll make the Whistler trailer. I want to be fun. My freaking identity isn't tied up in it.

• Speaker #1

  But you like making it.

• Speaker #0

  I enjoy making it. But it was weird when I was frustrated in the advertising world. I think so. If like we're talking to the chief audio officers that are listening or other creatives that are listening, it's kind of like what we're saying is like, you know what? Like take whatever those negative tapes are, just take them out of the tape player for three months and just do the best you can, like make the best thing you can with the widgets on your workbench. Is that what you would say?

• Speaker #1

  Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  Or get out or quit.

• Speaker #1

  You know, when the good opportunities there make it, do the other stuff you have to do with a smile on your face and do stuff outside of your work. If you can't do it at work, how many hours in a week? You only work so much. If you want ideas to be... your career, stay optimistic about it and remember why you got into it in the first place. There's a lot worse things you could be doing, a lot worse jobs. You're pretty lucky to be able to do the creative stuff and just keep using your mind.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. I think that's particularly important with the AI stuff. I could talk to you forever. This is awesome. We got to get to the heart of ad infinitum.

• Speaker #1

  Let's do it.

• Speaker #0

  Which is actually creating some ads. So yeah, we're zooming in on one aspect of it because of Shopify and what we do with Shopify, that being B2B, business to business. Wanted to zoom in on that. A recent top spender at Magellan. You can get a free demo for you mighty chief audio officers that are listening. You can get a free demo at Magellan.ai slash ad infinitum. That's where we pulled these air checks for IBM. That was one that identified that what I noticed in looking at the spending is they had a decent amount of spend last year, then they haven't spent at all this year. And then it just popped up here in the middle of the summer. Let's get into it. This is the first IBM ad on what's right with Nick Wright. From June 26th, 2025, let's see if these have an insight.

• Speaker #3

  The best AI assistant isn't one that knows the whole world. It's one that knows your world. A custom assistant built on Watson X with IBM's Granite models can leverage your trusted data, be easily trained on your workflows, and integrate with your apps. It can be tuned to do just what you need, because the more AI knows about your world, the more it can help you do. Learn more at IBM.com slash productivity. IBM, let's create.

• Speaker #1

  All right, the game is afoot. I do like the line. I mean, I'm not going to be a, I hate those creatives that just say everything's shit that they don't make. So I'm not going to do that. I do like the line about the best AI assistant isn't the one that knows the whole world. It knows your world. I think that reframes what AI does a little bit for people. I think it's the whole idea.

• Speaker #0

  personalization i think is i think they're on to something there i don't always buy into like just the creating lists about what it does did you like the groovy music track i'm not musical at all but yeah i could go without that okay hey let me ask you this was that a pretty spot this is a pretty spot for sure running away in the podcast what's right with nick wright and the episode nick wright reacts to nba draft Cooper flag Maverick still in Harper Spurs ace Bailey failing.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, I think it's wrong for the channel here You can't see this,

• Speaker #0

  but I'm showing Shelby. So pre-roll I see one two, three four four ads in the pre-roll Yep, and then I got a mid roll. Yeah, this is the thing We're still calling stuff mid rolls and this I have an axe grind on this. How many mid rolls do you see? Right, okay. There's three pods. There's three pods and then there's one two, three four post rolls Okay So which one of these is a mid roll and then you can kind of see like that looks like a 60 and a 60 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26. Sounds like a radio show.

• Speaker #1

  Exactly. Like, I'm not even talking about the creative. It's just they're missing a massive opportunity in the channel.

• Speaker #0

  Look, it's easy to port over radio. Creative. So that's one thing. I also wanted to point out, like, I hear what you're saying. I also feel like there's an undercurrent of creepiness that it knows your world. And because the more AI know, and I'm not like an anti, I'm like, whatever, like all my stuff's open, like whatever.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. You're pretty pro AI.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. But you know, the more AI knows about your world, the more it can help you do like there. I could see it rubbing some people the wrong way.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  And it's not really clear on what they mean by that.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. It's a bit loose and it's not really single-minded in service to a really clear problem.

• Speaker #0

  Let's do this before you grade it. And before I give you audio, let's listen to another one. So this is IBM on how I built this with Guy Raz within seven days. This is on 6-19-2025.

• Speaker #4

  Bigger isn't always better, especially with AI. Supersized models can drain your budget fast. Smaller ones are smart and can help cut AI costs up to 90%. Right-size your models at IBM.com. The AI built for business. IBM.

• Speaker #0

  So that sounded like it was Guy Raz, but he didn't identify.

• Speaker #1

  Missed opportunity.

• Speaker #0

  Probably price opportunity.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, I mean. yeah probably price opportunity look less ads though nine total ads i mean it would feel more obviously if it's his voice in his show it feels more genuine and connected to it feels more trusted but there's no i don't know like what authority does guy raz have on ai like does he know a lot about it they built it but he doesn't talk about it like that would be interesting if he was like i don't know the context of what episode it was on but if it was in an episode all about ai like maybe it would have made sense

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. Or maybe like that line, he said, you know, supersized models can drain your budget fast. Like in the case of many companies we've talked about on this, da, da, da. Yeah. Just somehow link it.

• Speaker #1

  Relating it back to what he talks about.

• Speaker #0

  You know what? Let's do this. We're actually going to listen to the next two so you can talk about them all together because what I want to get at is, is there IBM Insight that's driving their audio, the way they're showing up with audio? So you have these two. So here's the next one. This is IBM on pivot on 6-27-2025.

• Speaker #5

  Support for Pivot comes from IBM. Bigger isn't always better, especially with AI. Supersized models can drain your budget fast. Smaller ones are smart and can help cut AI costs up to 90%. Right-size your models at IBM.com. The AI built for business. IBM.

• Speaker #0

  I recognize that script.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, they're not letting them put it in their voice, are they?

• Speaker #0

  It's interesting though that Pivot, they did the music. And that's Kara Swisher. That's the host.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. I don't mind when someone has put music under their reads. Some do it in an okay way.

• Speaker #0

  Do you want to listen to the last one, then we rate them all?

• Speaker #1

  Let's do it. All right,

• Speaker #0

  IBM, this is your last chance with Shelby from the future. IBM on today in focus on 6-22-2025. It's important to note, like, these all were between 6-19-2025 and 6-27-2025. We're talking about observations. Here we go.

• Speaker #6

  Test, test, check one, two. You know you need unique New York. You know you need unique New York. Does that sound all right? Ah, that's better. You can always tell something's missing when you get isolated results. Like AI that's only right for one of your systems. Get AI that can work across your data and applications. Learn more at IBM.com. The AI built for business. IBM.

• Speaker #0

  Okay. All right. That one added sound at the end. Bum, bum, bum.

• Speaker #1

  Hey, cool. They used that at the end.

• Speaker #0

  So that's the four.

• Speaker #1

  I'm guessing he personalized that one.

• Speaker #0

  It sounded like it to me, like that whole New York, unique New York is like a voiceover, like a warmup.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. I don't get it, but.

• Speaker #0

  I didn't get it either.

• Speaker #1

  It does sound like he started to personalize it. I don't listen to his show, so I don't know him. Maybe that means something to his audience.

• Speaker #0

  It could.

• Speaker #1

  And if it does, cool.

• Speaker #0

  Well, it was half the ad.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. But I don't get the connection.

• Speaker #0

  I didn't totally get it either. So if you're going to rate them from that first one was the produce spot. And then we had the same one that was on how I built this and pivot. And then this last one. what would be your rank order?

• Speaker #1

  I'd probably rank the first one best. There's a bit more craft to it. It says something in a way I haven't totally heard before about AI. You know, like it's trying to teach me something or enlighten me on something. You know, that first line, the best AI assistant isn't one that knows the whole world. It's the one that knows your world. Like, I feel like that's trying to get people to think about it in a new way or just catch people's attention and just make them think about AI. The other two don't make me think about AI. I don't love... when a brand uses something that's like bigger isn't always better you get in a chain tent and pretty much any product or anything i thought it was an ad for trucks exactly they could have taken the sentiment of that and just changed it in a little bit of a way like yeah i haven't thought about it that way it doesn't do that for me so the guy ross cariswisher one you'd put at the bottom or i'd say at the bottom oh at the very bottom okay

• Speaker #0

  And then the next one up is Today in Focus, which was the one we just listened to where he did the unique New York.

• Speaker #1

  Because at least he personalized it.

• Speaker #0

  So here's what's interesting.

• Speaker #1

  I'm not rating the personalization as good, but at least he did.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. And to your point, it's kind of like that might actually buy you some attention. Even though the sales message is shorter, they stayed.

• Speaker #1

  I would hope so.

• Speaker #0

  Right. That would be the thought.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, that'd be a theory.

• Speaker #0

  So it's the same order. Audiolytics gave What's Right with Nick Wright number one. And I think it's the clearest. It has all the key points in there. It's got the call to action. And like we say a lot on ad infinitum, clarity has a cleverness all of its own. So it does that. And then the next one is the one that we were just talking about, where it's like it had the bit of personalization today in focus. And that might be good. I mean, it's got enough of the sales message. There could be more, there could be more, but at least it did that where the other two at the bottom pivot and how I built this both just left a lot to be desired, especially with what they left out. Just no personalization.

• Speaker #1

  For sure.

• Speaker #0

  It wasn't their voice. So what I'm hearing is like, and I'd like to get your thought on this, is do you hear an insight in any of this? And then two, Today in Focus has a Sonic logo at the end. The sound of... Like it had a Sonic logo at the end, which I don't know if I've heard before for IBM. The two host red ones were kind of flat and they didn't do PE, personal endorsement. And in the produced ones, like using a jazzy music track. So it felt idiosyncratic.

• Speaker #1

  For sure. I mean, even the first one had a different tagline than the other ones. The other ones say, the AI built for business, IBM. The first one says, IBM, let's create. Even at a scripting level, they're disconnected.

• Speaker #0

  So what's your advice for IBM? For the chief audio officers at IBM, Shelby Hayden Gregg, what is your advice?

• Speaker #1

  Define the core business problem you're trying to solve and then trust your strategist or agency to find what that problem means for people, you know, your customer, your audience. So help trust their translation of the problem for your business into a problem for humans. And then let them try to solve that with an idea. Because right now it feels like we're just trying to hit some proof points, which we'll get to. But let them come up with the idea first.

• Speaker #0

  And where do you come down on a sonic identity system, which I know is a fancy way of saying recognizing IBM with their eyes closed?

• Speaker #1

  Well, I know IBM has one. You should be using it for sure. They do. IBM has a really strong brand. So I think.

• Speaker #0

  Well, did you just hear one? Yeah. Like if we were to translate into visuals, that was three different approaches.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, totally.

• Speaker #0

  Which I guess you could make a case for. However, I think these are all more the same than different. I mean, the medium, it's podcast. So how are you going to show up in podcast?

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. I mean, they do feel like they're, even though the format's different for each, they don't feel like they're coming from the same brief either. So like, sure, they should be different. A produce spot should be different than your short host read. And it should be different than your real podcast spot that's endorsed. But at the end of the day, like they all still should come from the same idea and the same theme, the same insight, you know, above that, the same problem, you know, your job at IBM is what's the problem. And then let us help solve it for you.

• Speaker #0

  Hear, hear. We could do this all day. We basically have.

• Speaker #1

  There's a lot to talk about.

• Speaker #0

  There's a lot to talk about. So what parting words of wisdom do you have in general for the chief audio officers that are listening? Shelby from the future in the present.

• Speaker #1

  I mean, I kind of have like three themes for doing what we do. The first one is creating. Create three C's for me. Create, craft, and care. So make stuff, write it, write it down. Use your brain, you know, do it yourself. Flex that muscle. all those muscles that help you make things, and then apply some craft, you know? So polish it, test it, let somebody else look at it, get another opinion, workshop it, throw it in the bin and start again. Like, keep crafting, because at the end of the day, it's only through that repetitive process that we make stuff better. Every artist could relate to that. And then ultimately, care about what you're doing. You know, I think we can't do any of this if we don't care. You know, I truly care about the work that I put out. You have to care about it. And I think... not just us as the creatives, but like you as chief audio officers and clients, like care about what we're doing. You have to. If you don't care about it, how do you expect me to care about it? Because my job is to care about it.

• Speaker #0

  And I think it comes through somehow.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. You know, make stuff, make it better and do it with heart. I think, you know, you should care about all this stuff. I think sometimes we get too in our head, too embedded in our businesses or in our brands or our product. But like the way out of that, it's just caring a little more.

• Speaker #0

  I think that's right. And that's what we were talking about that earlier when I was talking about like the decision point, like, you know, create craft and care. I like that. And the Karen piece is like, you decide to care.

• Speaker #1

  That's a choice you have to make.

• Speaker #0

  And it's like, cause ultimately, you know what? We could break out the book of Ecclesiastes and say, meaningless, meaningless, everything is meaningless. Even I guarantee at the highest Mount of Olympus of any field that let's say the frustrated artist in advertising didn't achieve. I never did direct Dune Messiah. It's like, I guarantee once you've done that, we've heard that the world is replete with these messages. Denis Villeneuve is not, that does not satisfy. That doesn't fill it up. But you know what does? Is whether it is Dune Messiah or whether it's the next script for a mattress company.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  that you care. And I think something happens when you do that. It's like reality, others, the universe rewards you.

• Speaker #1

  Totally. Absolutely. You know, if we talked about AI a bit at the start of this, like, don't just throw it into AI and I'm not anti-AI, but like, don't throw it into AI because you don't care.

• Speaker #0

  That's it. Throw it into AI because you do care.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. If you care, use AI to its full potential, but don't drop the brief into AI and see what it puts out and go present that.

• Speaker #0

  Because you don't care. You're talking about your posture has to be right.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, you have to use it. Like any tool, use it to the best of your ability. But don't throw it in there because you don't have enough time or you've put it off. Anything that revolves around the decision to not care about what you're doing. Because someone who cares about what they're doing doesn't handball the problem to somebody else. They take it on.

• Speaker #0

  Exactly. So it's three C's. Create, craft, and care. And would you say that that creates performance optimization?

• Speaker #1

  For sure.

• Speaker #0

  Okay, so. With that said, it's 3C3PO.

• Speaker #1

  C3PO. Love how you link everything back to Star Wars.

• Speaker #0

  I'm doing the best I could. And I think we can end on that happy feeling. So C3PO, you're going to create, craft, and care for performance optimization. So thank you for bringing Star Wars into it.

• Speaker #1

  Look at that. We collaborated. Made it better.

• Speaker #0

  I think we did, and I'm glad you did too.

• Speaker #1

  I think you need to make a little poster of C3PO and make one of those motivational office posters.

• Speaker #0

  Completely.

• Speaker #1

  If you have C3PO, like on a walk, create craft care of office.

• Speaker #0

  That's it. So Shelby, thank you so much. Where can people interact and find out more about you?

• Speaker #1

  I have two websites, one for my business and one for myself. The first one is I'm Shelby.com. So I am. And then Shelby, like the car. And then the other website is the think truck.com. So like think tank, but truck is truck.

• Speaker #0

  You are the think truck. Thank you very much. Thanks again, Shelby. I'm so glad we were able to do this episode in person, meet in person.

• Speaker #1

  I'm grateful for the opportunity and yeah, really pumped to actually finally meet you and be here together. Not meet you, but yeah, to be face to face is still important.

• Speaker #0

  Oh, it's so important. That's a way to show you care.

• Speaker #1

  Exactly.

• Speaker #0

  So thank you for caring. And yeah, I'll end with that. I'll say for you creatives that are listening, chief audio officers that are listening. Shelby Hayden Craig has always done, practiced what he preaches, never let me down. And I know because he practices his craft, because he creates and puts in the time, and he cares that the work is always really good, is great work. So thank you, Shelby.

• Speaker #1

  You're very welcome. Thank you.

• Speaker #0

  That's a wrap on another episode of Ad Infinitum. And for you chief audio officers that are listening, remember there's no magic button. It's all about caring to get to the meaningful work. Remember to visit Magellan.ai slash ad infinitum to sign up for a free demo. Thank you for listening and remember to have fun making the ads work.