When the Helmets Come Off: Kraig T. Kitchin at CAO Summit 2025 | Ad Infinitum

Description

What happens when the helmets come off in audio advertising?

At the 2025 Chief Audio Officer Summit, industry leaders gathered not to pitch, but to share—openly debating the toughest challenges in podcasting and audio. In this special episode, Stew Redwine sits down with Kraig T. Kitchin to unpack the insights, optimism, and candid conversations that defined this year’s CAO Summit at Terranea Resort.

You’ll learn:

Why vulnerability—not bravado—sparked the most valuable breakthroughs.
How the industry is grappling with measurement across YouTube, audio platforms, and beyond.
What radio’s history reveals about the future of podcasts in the age of video.
How top creators are embracing their dual role as entertainers and salespeople.
Where AI belongs in creative—and why care remains the human advantage.

From oceanfront backdrops to locker-room honesty, this episode captures the rare environment where competitors become collaborators—and where audio’s future is written in real time.

Support the show

Ad Infinitum is Presented by Oxford Road and Produced by Caitlyn Spring & Ezra Fox, MFA, written & hosted by Stew Redwine, and sound designed by John Mattaliano, with audio production by Zach Hahn.

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Transcription

Stew Redwine
This is Ad Infinitum. Ad Infinitum is the award-winning podcast solely focused on audio ads, the creatives who make them and or the latest thinking that informs them, how the space is evolving, and my favorite part, a roundup of recent audio ads with analysis by yours truly, Stu Redwine, and each episode's guest. You're listening to Ad Infinitum, the only podcast about audio ads, how they're made and how to make them work better. And I'm here with Craig T. Kitchen, and we just wrapped up the CAO Summit, the third one. here in 2025 for Oxford Road. Craig, what do you think?
Kraig Kitchin
I dare say the fourth Chief Audio Officer Summit is probably going to be a sold-out event next year. When I say sold-out, standing room only is probably a better definition. And I say that because the number of people leaving the third annual Chief Audio Officer Summit, CAO Summit, is probably going to speak to five or 10 or 15 individuals in the course of the next two or three months. about all the learning that came out of this. And I think there's going to be that much more demand to want to be a part of the conversations next year because there was a lot of topics taken on.
Stew Redwine
Yeah.
Kraig Kitchin
And a lot of problems solved and a lot of information shared. The overwhelming sensation I have from this morning thinking about the CAO event is how forthcoming everybody was in the conversations debating the heavy topics of the day. They brought their best material and they were not... they didn't hold back on the vulnerabilities of the goods, the bads, and the uglies of what it is they do, right?
Stew Redwine
Yes, and I think that that's the real magic to me. We were talking about it last night of like this idea of, you know, when we go into business, it can be somewhat of a problematic metaphor to compare it too much to combat, but it can feel like that, a competition, a sporting event, and you put your uniform on, you put your helmet on, you put your pads on, you're playing to win, and that's appropriate. you need to wear all that equipment and go out there. Let's make it football. It's football. There's something just so, and rarely do you take off the pads and the helmet and that you only do that in the locker room. You only do that with your team. But here you see where it's like, once somebody takes off their equipment and shows some vulnerability and opens up and is like, this is hard. This podcasting thing is hard. This audio thing is hard, especially with video. And they, people start opening up and sharing it. encourages other people to share and they really get encouragement because it's a pitch-free environment.
Kraig Kitchin
Yes. The single largest user of podcast advertising in the past five years was in conversations over the last two days in the midst of 70 plus other chief audio officers or evangelists for audio who also were in attendance. To see that individual speak about the easy paths forward or the really difficult forwards or the curveballs that has come that company's way. And to watch other people say, wow, if that person is having that many challenges getting it done with the buying power that that company represents, imagine what it must like be for me. So I'm not alone in thinking this through. And at the same time, it's not like, OK, I'm going to wither away from that is all right. But how do we align ourselves when our helmets are off and our equipment is away? I'm just actually solving that for the next day.
Stew Redwine
Yeah. And I also think it's like you get the solutions, you get that. you're inspired by like oh you know there's some folks you put on mount olympus like you're saying these massive advertisers and then they're in this environment where it's like oh they don't know what they're doing either not that they don't know what they're doing but they have challenges too yes you know like i told you that story where back in the day when i was doing like gripping electric work i drove a truck into this big garage door it's like a 15 foot garage door i thought it was all the way up and you can't when you're in like a five ton truck you can't even feel if you've hit something and then it was like wait a second i get out i realized i didn't this guy's garage door. So I called Troy Paddock. I'm like, I can't believe this. I ran into this store and he's been in the business longer than I've been alive. He's like, oh, I've done that a dozen times. And it was like, oh,
Kraig Kitchin
that is a great metaphor for the experience of somebody who's been there and done that.
Stew Redwine
That's it.
Kraig Kitchin
And others who are just getting into the process of doing it and have not done it entirely in every way, shape and form. And that's what we saw. If there were two conversation points that were really taken on yesterday that were really. invigorating to try to problem solve. One of them is how do we account for all of the collective audiences coming to listen or view a podcast in all the forms, right? The word is out that 25% of consumption of podcast happens visually on YouTube. There are other platforms that also offer podcast exposures as well, whether or not it's from X to Rumble and others, coupled with the origins of podcasts, which are audio based. And there are dozens of avenues. for listening to those. But the question is, how do you add apples plus oranges and bananas to get a final number? And then on top of that, do we count for full listening episodes, partial listening episodes, tune in, tune out, come back again, and to find and see rooms where every company involved in the counting and the attribution of that are coming together to speak about it in full view of the users of it, these companies, dozens and dozens of companies. And they're all chopping it up, trying to figure it out and make sense of it so that they can leave the room with a clear answer. Where else are you going to find that?
Stew Redwine
This is the only context because I kind of extending the football metaphor. It's like it is proper and appropriate that during a game everybody's playing to win. That's not the time to stop and pull Tom Brady aside and go, hey, could you give me some tips on how to. We're focused. But here we have this pause moment. And I have to say it's a beautiful place to pause where it's here and there. Can you describe what you're seeing here, Craig?
Kraig Kitchin
I have a full... unadulterated view of the Pacific Ocean, islands and the island of Catalina in particular.
Stew Redwine
It's Catalina wine mix.
Kraig Kitchin
Off the coast, there is a good 15 or 20 miles of ocean in front of us, barely occupied by large freighters that are coming out of the Long Beach port, but most importantly, just a beautiful shoreline and a great outdoor setting. I mean, being close to water really represents, you know, a freedom of spirit and all the other things that go about it. And so this backdrop really just brought everybody into a great mood and a place to want to share. And I think in the end, what's happened out of this is a great set of conversations on creative executions and podcast environments, the importance of the baked in message, the, you know, the live embedded message, you know, from really, really talented hosts, the company's return on investment that they're getting in the podcast medium, not only domestically, but internationally now.
Stew Redwine
Yeah.
Kraig Kitchin
And to just see. For many companies, this avenue of advertising is the single best return on investment avenue. They want to continue on broadcast television, on streaming television, and in other audio forms than just podcast and audio streaming, including broadcast radio. But they identify in particular that podcast advertising and streaming audio are two of the best return on investment vehicles that they have. And for them to come and explore other ways to further exploit it and to grow the medium and they, I think instinctually. It was said in conversation, when we realize it is a $3 billion plus industry, maybe even $4 billion by the time we count the revenues coming from the YouTube platform, they realize the significance of that. Because if there is more money in the water, there are more talented hosts and creative productions that are going to take place, which is going to captivate the last 45% of Americans to actually consume and enjoy podcasts more regularly. if the majority of Americans are already... taking this information in, in the form of entertainment or information or both?
Stew Redwine
Absolutely. You know, recently I've been, we touched a little bit of on radio's history in the summit, and I've just been finishing up this book. I'm getting out this book right now to show Craig, listening in, Radio and the American Imagination by Susan J. Douglas, and it's a history of radio.
Kraig Kitchin
Wow. From Amos and Andy to Howard Stern.
Stew Redwine
Yes. And as I've gone through it, I've been mapping like podcasts history. completely maps over radio's history. And so what's been encouraging to me is, and you know radio's history, obviously, is like, we already know the future. We know how this is going to go. And so this is what I mean. It took radio about 30 years to get supplanted by television, right? Sarnoff, the guy over there at NBC, like he started, he made a decision to either invest in FM, which I learned means frequency modulation, and AM means amplitude modulating.
Kraig Kitchin
You read the book.
Stew Redwine
Read a book, Craig. But what was interesting, I was like, it was like 1938. He switched investment from FM and it was going to be a guy that's going to work on it at the top of the Empire State Building, which is, I mean, it's incredible to television. All right. Like, but it wasn't until the mid 50s that TV comes in and disrupts radio. But this is the crazy part. And I want to get your response to this is that in the same way. So podcast, the history radio, that's like a 30 year period. And then TV comes in and disrupts it. And In many regards, someone could simplistically kind of even go, and that's, you know, that was the end of radio. Okay. Podcasts, on-demand audio did like the same trajectory as radio, but a smaller pie in only 10 years. And then you go, okay, well, what's next? Oh, well, video's disrupting it with YouTube. Oh, okay, interesting. What really happened to radio after television came into the picture? And one thing that was emblematic of it for me is that a big point she made in the book is about World War II, that our view of World War II... because of movies and we do have photographs and there was some filming. We're like, oh, it was visual. It's like the way everybody experienced World War II was the radio, right?
Kraig Kitchin
The storytelling and the reports that happened.
Stew Redwine
But we've lost this view of radio. But after TV, it continued to grow. It was one of the most efficient mediums. And I just, so I look at podcasts and I think some people are negative Nellies. But I go, look at the history of radio. It's actually the best thing is almost that the focus goes over here and goes, oh, there's this big, bright, shiny thing over here. But the experience of audio, on-demand audio, the spoken word, that's not going to go away. And in fact, now it is going to continue to grow even if all the attention is over here.
Kraig Kitchin
Yeah, it's true. So if you think back to 1938, somebody takes a big swing on the television medium at a time when the living rooms of most Americans had a console in it, which was the radio. That's what people would sit around, the tubes that were glowing in the back and the heat and the smell of those tubes and just the live information coming from it. That was a first, right? So most nine people out of 10 would say, I'm going to continue to invest in that form of entertainment because that's where America is coming to, besides maybe newsreels and movie theaters. So Sardoff takes the big swing on that and instead of investing in FM, invest in TV.
Stew Redwine
Yeah.
Kraig Kitchin
Good. At the same time in 1938, and again through 1948 and 58 and 68, the explosion of American families owning private automobiles for the first time, that absolutely had a single form of entertainment in it, which was a radio. First the AM only, then the AM and the FM radio, and then at the same time, democratization of radio, because those big councils were reserved for the few. But the less expensive radios, including the transistor radios and some of the others that could be battery operated, obviously made it easier. I bring all of that history up just to say the ability to find a podcast or listen to audio in any form, which is simplistically in all of our phones, as an example, on all of our computers, on smart speakers, on any number of other devices, is the same thing that happened to radio in the 40s and 50s.
Stew Redwine
With the car. And I think another piece of that. connected completely is these. I'm holding up my headphones. Yes. And the quality of them. And that was the same idea with the radio in the car is the mobility of audio. Now I can listen to high quality audio mobily. And if we zoom forward a little bit, I never really appreciated this, but like I said, I've read a book now. It was that FM was better quality audio. So it's increasing quality and more mobility.
Kraig Kitchin
They wanted to hear music more clearly. And of course, FM provided a better, more superior way of listening to music than AM did. Just like your headphones does today.
Stew Redwine
Exactly. So Sarnoff doesn't decide to invest in FM, but it still developed. And it was still a fantastic advertising medium. And one of the points that came out of this that I appreciated from one of the advertisers is like, fine, don't come to audio. You think audio is dead or you think that's okay. That's less competition, right?
Kraig Kitchin
Yes.
Stew Redwine
So I'm very optimistic.
Kraig Kitchin
You can't help but leave a CAO summit after the conversations that we witnessed over two and a half days than being very optimistic. even in that. creative iterations that we heard yesterday, right? The ownership of creators, the people behind the microphone who are one part entertainers and one part salespeople, they understand the role. Whether or not it's Nick Vile or it's Ashley Flowers or it's Kim Commando or Stephen Bartlett or Ben Shapiro or any number of the other creators that we heard, all of them to a point and to a person totally understood I've got two jobs. One is to entertain and inform people. The other is to sell products. And there is a generation of refined podcasters in the thousands now that understand that role they have. That is a very different situation than even five years ago. And I think these chief audio officers, by their offers to invest not only their money, but also their time in explaining their products or services to these podcasters, you know, in whatever number of ongoing meetings and conversations they have, have just made that a great partnership.
Stew Redwine
Yeah. And look, I mean, you know, even as we're doing influencer and creator and YouTube and video and, you know, we do television commercials sometimes, it's like, no question, that's a bigger pie. But what's so encouraging to me in mapping the past over it is like, yeah, TV was way bigger than radio, but radio grew too. And it's a super efficient medium.
Kraig Kitchin
True. Think about all the television broadcasters that experienced great success, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, you know, all the to a point with few exceptions. They are not allowed to talk about products and services in the course of executing their duties. But there is a generation of audio broadcasters and podcasters, several now, that that is their second skill set. And we have the ability, this medium in particular, the audio medium in any form, just has that built-in audience acceptance if it's not overly abused by too many messages. the allowance that a couple of really bright commentators or podcasters can chop it up with one another in the process of talking about a great meat delivery company or a great software application or a great online app that provides a great solution for banking or whatever it might be. They don't run away from it as a perfunctory. They look forward to it as how do I create and accept the creative challenge of holding my audience's attention by explaining to them that online banking is better than branch banking. Just to use one... business example.
Stew Redwine
It's a great example. And I think it's this change from broadcast on demand of like, you know, you hear the word authenticity a lot and it can kind of give you, it can be like, oh, eye roll. But like, just imagine if you're watching NBA, you would never expect in the commercial break that Kevin Harlan goes into a personal endorsement of anything. And it's like, why, why not? And that's like, I think with the podcast selection, we touched on this as like, I don't want to see an edited sound by five minute video. This talk to the guy for three hours.
Kraig Kitchin
Exactly. Kevin Harlan is a great example because you hear him on radio and he does amazing live commercials inside of radio broadcasts for football games. Or you'll see him on television calling an NCAA basketball game. But because of the format and culture of that, he is not encouraged to or allowed to speak about the same advertiser that he might be speaking about the next night on a football game.
Stew Redwine
We might have figured out how to save live sports. You and me right here. Let these guys start doing endorsement. Turns out a live sporting events podcast. Who knew?
Kraig Kitchin
It may well be, right? I mean, they certainly look for other creative ways to include, and most of them are visual versus audio and visual. But yes, that may well turn out to be.
Stew Redwine
That's the kind of ideas we come up with here at the CAO Summit.
Kraig Kitchin
Wow. The inspiration continues on its fourth day here.
Stew Redwine
You know, something I did notice is that at one point there was a video was showcased where there was a synthetic human being with a synthetic voice. And what was remarkable to me about it, it was a very short video where it was like showcasing this host, like a digital host. And not one person remarked on it to me. Do you know the moment I'm talking about?
Kraig Kitchin
Yes.
Stew Redwine
And I thought my armchair psychologist part of me is like, oh, nobody even wants to like talk about like that was photorealistic, full on felt like that host was talking to us. But it was Gen AI and a synthetic voice.
Kraig Kitchin
It's like the popular band right now on Spotify. Bob Ness. band member in it. It's all synthetic. And I don't know yet if society at large or knowledgeable, learned audio experts, advertising experts have yet come to a conclusion or a consensus thought on how AI incorporated in the audio and video messages is going to be taken. You know, we don't, we haven't moved yet from the fake videos that have been created, you know, that, you know, may be misinformation, disinformation oriented to the... existence of it in advertising messages, you know, where it's one thing to maybe use one of the AI machine learning environments to create scripts. It's another thing to necessarily bring a person or a artificial person to life to advocate on behalf of a product.
Stew Redwine
Well, it's two quick thoughts on that. Then I've got a question. One is sometimes I think a lot of times we're looking at people out here on this balcony. It's beautiful. I know for me. A lot of times I feel like I'm a person walking around impersonating a person. It's like in the movie Tropic Thunder, where he's like, do you even know who you are? I'm a dude playing a dude disguised as another dude. I'm a dude playing a dude disguised as another dude. So in many ways, like people are fake.
Kraig Kitchin
Yeah, you could put on a face, you could put on a facade. You're right.
Stew Redwine
So what's the difference? You know, so anyway, that's just sort of anecdotal. Like, hmm, like, so let's be more real. But I did want to touch on creative, you know, at Oxford Road as of this week, we're patent pending with the whole audiolytic system. which is a system that we've developed. Dan started it. Dan Grange is the founder and CEO of Oxygen Dread. Started it in 2009. First time I worked on it was 2011. It has always been this very manual system. And now like Pinocchio has become a real boy just with the incredible power of AI agents and different multiple AI tools that have allowed us within Creative to build an entire ecosystem to generate. The creative, the main thing you're talking about, though, is funny. We asked ChatGPT, one of the main creatives we work with, Ezra Fox, asked ChatGPT to review this MIT article about when you think through a problem, there's a bunch of brain activity. When you use Google, there's less. And when you use ChatGPT, there's like zero. And ChatGPT said, well, I can't help you think more clearly, but it doesn't come without a cost.
Kraig Kitchin
A very honest revelation.
Stew Redwine
And that's part of like me even reading physical books is like I'm trying to... keep that real estate in my mind. And my point is this, you're like, where's it going to land where I'm landing, where we're landing with creative docs road is like, you have still got to have a human at the center. They're going to be using different tools and we'll be using a lot more tools, but you've got to have a human at the center that cares about the audience and the output, the relationship with the host and like honors that heart connection that it matters.
Kraig Kitchin
So analogy. it to somebody down the hall in the accounting department. There was a time where they calculated everything manually, carried the nine, carried the five, you know, the whole thing. Now, fast forward, they now have a calculator on their desk.
Stew Redwine
Yeah.
Kraig Kitchin
Or now they have an Excel spreadsheet on their desk. They're still a human being that's involved in interpreting the data and coming to a conclusion. The same thing, I think, is aptly said by yourself. There needs to be and will be a human being involved in that process if it's done right. to bring the emotion and the sensitivity of who the audience is and what the intended purpose is.
Stew Redwine
Exactly. It's care. It's unsolicited. That word has come up in a couple past episodes of Ad Infinitum is that the antidote almost to the fear of AI is caring. And what I've noticed, this is interesting. Initially, I'd say the last two years and then in recent months when it's really ramped up with AI and stuff, I saw creatives kind of either hunker and want to defend the old ways or sort of like get so discouraged that they don't even want to have output. And then there's this recent thing that's happened that I think is a good thing. It's like a market force where they're like, they now know that anybody they're dealing with can go to chat GPT and get like a starter of any creative output, a design, a script, even audio. So now it's like, oh, you got to level up. You got to show them why working with a human is so much better. And so it's really cool. I've seen some like, cause in advertising and creative, it can get cynical and people can get discouraged. It's just weird. mixture, right? A cynical kind of view of it is like, you know, anybody in creative and advertising is a failed artist, right? Like that's like the dark view. I'm like, yeah, they're an artist and they're an expressive, sensitive person. And that's cool. And they get an opportunity to do that, but they lost their love. And actually AI, the ones that are staying in it, it's giving their love back because now they got to show they love it.
Kraig Kitchin
It's a creative infusion of a different sort. And it's a practical reality. And it can be a very helpful tool because they're in control of whether or not to use the output or not use the output. In a year... 2025 when scientists have redeveloped a different wooden baseball bat for the New York Yankees to use because they put their mathematical minds to it and said, all right, we're going to approach our problem solving of hitting the ball further differently. It's all right to acknowledge that AI involved in copywriting and creative executions is permitted as well. There's probably a better metaphor than that. maybe aluminum bats versus wooden bats in baseball, whatever it is. And that was also technology driven.
Stew Redwine
I think that is a fantastic metaphor because what I also like about it is we're still using wooden bats.
Kraig Kitchin
Yes. And we're choosing to pick them up when we want to. And when we don't write different execution, you mentioned authenticity.
Stew Redwine
Yeah.
Kraig Kitchin
And how important, how many times different advertisers talked about. the fact that they wanted to be in authentic environments.
Stew Redwine
Yeah, and the hosts were talking about, it's like we had a dollar for every time somebody said that word the last three days, we'd have a thousand dollars.
Kraig Kitchin
That is exactly my thought. Because as you brought that word up in this conversation, that was one of the primary themes in addition to attribution and the definition of what podcasts are and the protection that advertisers want to telegraph to publishers. Don't overexploit a good thing. Yes. Keep your commercial inventory properly maintained. Don't turn it into two thirds content, one third advertising. Leave it in a 90-10 model because or whatever the number is percentage wise, because that's what's keeping the listener coming back for every episode that is created audio or visually.
Stew Redwine
Yeah. And I do think, you know, again, trying to learn from the past is like it's not all roses with the history of radio and the commercialization of it and it did get to that point where You know, the point it's at now where it's 20 minutes out of every hour or more.
Kraig Kitchin
Certainly in the spoken word formats, yes.
Stew Redwine
Yes, you've got to move the market incentive away from that.
Kraig Kitchin
And the solution, of course, is brilliant creative that brings a return on investment. By that I mean brings an audience to want to take action on a product or service in a way that you don't need to run so much advertising to be able to create the kind of return on investment that advertisers need to continue.
Stew Redwine
You know, and I've never had this thought before. It's a simple thought, but it's just amazing how much, you know, on demand has changed our concern. I mean, broadcast, you've got to watch the commercial. You've got to listen to the commercial. You must, you are required.
Kraig Kitchin
Yes.
Stew Redwine
You're no longer required.
Kraig Kitchin
Not in today's era of video streaming.
Stew Redwine
Yeah. We're on a podcast, you know, video or audio. So then that's an interesting dynamic of pushing people to, like you said, big theme here is vulnerability with people. How can we do this better? And then with that comes even authenticity. amongst each other. And then that's where we want to go with the medium. Any closing thoughts for the chief audio officers that are listening?
Kraig Kitchin
It is for those that are listening that attended the CAO Summit. I thank you from the bottom of my heart as just one consumer for not only taking the time to attend, but coming undistracted and sharing your best thoughts and sharing your openness and you're willing to collaborate, you're willing to problem solve with others to, like you say, take off the helmet, take off the jersey and just participate. in an industry of conversation, of problem solving and dreaming. What could we do next? How can we make this coveted part of our responsibilities even better and more productive for them in their own role? It was an extraordinary effort, not just to travel, because this is obviously a beautiful destination, but to just come and be all in, not be distracted, not have your laptop open, but have your mind open to all of these great conversations. That, to me, is the closing message to me.
Stew Redwine
Couldn't have said it better myself. Thank you so much, Craig, for coming on Ad Infinitum yet again. We tend to do these around the CAO Summit, so I say we keep it going.
Kraig Kitchin
Thank you for keeping the Ad Infinitum message going all year long and bringing great guests to the conversation, too. That doesn't happen by accident.
Stew Redwine
Well, it means a lot coming from you, and I'm very grateful you did this. So thank you, Craig.
Kraig Kitchin
Thank you, Stu.

Chapters

Introduction to Ad Infinitum
0sec
Reflections on the CAO Summit
42sec
The Importance of Vulnerability in Business
1min
Challenges in Podcast Advertising
2min
Audience Measurement and Attribution
4min
Creative Executions and ROI in Audio
6min
History of Radio and Its Impact on Podcasts
8min
The Role of AI in Creative Processes
12min
The Future of Audio Advertising
18min
Closing Thoughts and Collaboration in Audio
24min

Description

What happens when the helmets come off in audio advertising?

You’ll learn:

Why vulnerability—not bravado—sparked the most valuable breakthroughs.
How the industry is grappling with measurement across YouTube, audio platforms, and beyond.
What radio’s history reveals about the future of podcasts in the age of video.
How top creators are embracing their dual role as entertainers and salespeople.
Where AI belongs in creative—and why care remains the human advantage.

From oceanfront backdrops to locker-room honesty, this episode captures the rare environment where competitors become collaborators—and where audio’s future is written in real time.

Support the show

Ad Infinitum is Presented by Oxford Road and Produced by Caitlyn Spring & Ezra Fox, MFA, written & hosted by Stew Redwine, and sound designed by John Mattaliano, with audio production by Zach Hahn.

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Transcription

Stew Redwine
This is Ad Infinitum. Ad Infinitum is the award-winning podcast solely focused on audio ads, the creatives who make them and or the latest thinking that informs them, how the space is evolving, and my favorite part, a roundup of recent audio ads with analysis by yours truly, Stu Redwine, and each episode's guest. You're listening to Ad Infinitum, the only podcast about audio ads, how they're made and how to make them work better. And I'm here with Craig T. Kitchen, and we just wrapped up the CAO Summit, the third one. here in 2025 for Oxford Road. Craig, what do you think?
Kraig Kitchin
I dare say the fourth Chief Audio Officer Summit is probably going to be a sold-out event next year. When I say sold-out, standing room only is probably a better definition. And I say that because the number of people leaving the third annual Chief Audio Officer Summit, CAO Summit, is probably going to speak to five or 10 or 15 individuals in the course of the next two or three months. about all the learning that came out of this. And I think there's going to be that much more demand to want to be a part of the conversations next year because there was a lot of topics taken on.
Stew Redwine
Yeah.
Kraig Kitchin
And a lot of problems solved and a lot of information shared. The overwhelming sensation I have from this morning thinking about the CAO event is how forthcoming everybody was in the conversations debating the heavy topics of the day. They brought their best material and they were not... they didn't hold back on the vulnerabilities of the goods, the bads, and the uglies of what it is they do, right?
Stew Redwine
Yes, and I think that that's the real magic to me. We were talking about it last night of like this idea of, you know, when we go into business, it can be somewhat of a problematic metaphor to compare it too much to combat, but it can feel like that, a competition, a sporting event, and you put your uniform on, you put your helmet on, you put your pads on, you're playing to win, and that's appropriate. you need to wear all that equipment and go out there. Let's make it football. It's football. There's something just so, and rarely do you take off the pads and the helmet and that you only do that in the locker room. You only do that with your team. But here you see where it's like, once somebody takes off their equipment and shows some vulnerability and opens up and is like, this is hard. This podcasting thing is hard. This audio thing is hard, especially with video. And they, people start opening up and sharing it. encourages other people to share and they really get encouragement because it's a pitch-free environment.
Kraig Kitchin
Yes. The single largest user of podcast advertising in the past five years was in conversations over the last two days in the midst of 70 plus other chief audio officers or evangelists for audio who also were in attendance. To see that individual speak about the easy paths forward or the really difficult forwards or the curveballs that has come that company's way. And to watch other people say, wow, if that person is having that many challenges getting it done with the buying power that that company represents, imagine what it must like be for me. So I'm not alone in thinking this through. And at the same time, it's not like, OK, I'm going to wither away from that is all right. But how do we align ourselves when our helmets are off and our equipment is away? I'm just actually solving that for the next day.
Stew Redwine
Yeah. And I also think it's like you get the solutions, you get that. you're inspired by like oh you know there's some folks you put on mount olympus like you're saying these massive advertisers and then they're in this environment where it's like oh they don't know what they're doing either not that they don't know what they're doing but they have challenges too yes you know like i told you that story where back in the day when i was doing like gripping electric work i drove a truck into this big garage door it's like a 15 foot garage door i thought it was all the way up and you can't when you're in like a five ton truck you can't even feel if you've hit something and then it was like wait a second i get out i realized i didn't this guy's garage door. So I called Troy Paddock. I'm like, I can't believe this. I ran into this store and he's been in the business longer than I've been alive. He's like, oh, I've done that a dozen times. And it was like, oh,
Kraig Kitchin
that is a great metaphor for the experience of somebody who's been there and done that.
Stew Redwine
That's it.
Kraig Kitchin
And others who are just getting into the process of doing it and have not done it entirely in every way, shape and form. And that's what we saw. If there were two conversation points that were really taken on yesterday that were really. invigorating to try to problem solve. One of them is how do we account for all of the collective audiences coming to listen or view a podcast in all the forms, right? The word is out that 25% of consumption of podcast happens visually on YouTube. There are other platforms that also offer podcast exposures as well, whether or not it's from X to Rumble and others, coupled with the origins of podcasts, which are audio based. And there are dozens of avenues. for listening to those. But the question is, how do you add apples plus oranges and bananas to get a final number? And then on top of that, do we count for full listening episodes, partial listening episodes, tune in, tune out, come back again, and to find and see rooms where every company involved in the counting and the attribution of that are coming together to speak about it in full view of the users of it, these companies, dozens and dozens of companies. And they're all chopping it up, trying to figure it out and make sense of it so that they can leave the room with a clear answer. Where else are you going to find that?
Stew Redwine
This is the only context because I kind of extending the football metaphor. It's like it is proper and appropriate that during a game everybody's playing to win. That's not the time to stop and pull Tom Brady aside and go, hey, could you give me some tips on how to. We're focused. But here we have this pause moment. And I have to say it's a beautiful place to pause where it's here and there. Can you describe what you're seeing here, Craig?
Kraig Kitchin
I have a full... unadulterated view of the Pacific Ocean, islands and the island of Catalina in particular.
Stew Redwine
It's Catalina wine mix.
Kraig Kitchin
Off the coast, there is a good 15 or 20 miles of ocean in front of us, barely occupied by large freighters that are coming out of the Long Beach port, but most importantly, just a beautiful shoreline and a great outdoor setting. I mean, being close to water really represents, you know, a freedom of spirit and all the other things that go about it. And so this backdrop really just brought everybody into a great mood and a place to want to share. And I think in the end, what's happened out of this is a great set of conversations on creative executions and podcast environments, the importance of the baked in message, the, you know, the live embedded message, you know, from really, really talented hosts, the company's return on investment that they're getting in the podcast medium, not only domestically, but internationally now.
Stew Redwine
Yeah.
Kraig Kitchin
And to just see. For many companies, this avenue of advertising is the single best return on investment avenue. They want to continue on broadcast television, on streaming television, and in other audio forms than just podcast and audio streaming, including broadcast radio. But they identify in particular that podcast advertising and streaming audio are two of the best return on investment vehicles that they have. And for them to come and explore other ways to further exploit it and to grow the medium and they, I think instinctually. It was said in conversation, when we realize it is a $3 billion plus industry, maybe even $4 billion by the time we count the revenues coming from the YouTube platform, they realize the significance of that. Because if there is more money in the water, there are more talented hosts and creative productions that are going to take place, which is going to captivate the last 45% of Americans to actually consume and enjoy podcasts more regularly. if the majority of Americans are already... taking this information in, in the form of entertainment or information or both?
Stew Redwine
Absolutely. You know, recently I've been, we touched a little bit of on radio's history in the summit, and I've just been finishing up this book. I'm getting out this book right now to show Craig, listening in, Radio and the American Imagination by Susan J. Douglas, and it's a history of radio.
Kraig Kitchin
Wow. From Amos and Andy to Howard Stern.
Stew Redwine
Yes. And as I've gone through it, I've been mapping like podcasts history. completely maps over radio's history. And so what's been encouraging to me is, and you know radio's history, obviously, is like, we already know the future. We know how this is going to go. And so this is what I mean. It took radio about 30 years to get supplanted by television, right? Sarnoff, the guy over there at NBC, like he started, he made a decision to either invest in FM, which I learned means frequency modulation, and AM means amplitude modulating.
Kraig Kitchin
You read the book.
Stew Redwine
Read a book, Craig. But what was interesting, I was like, it was like 1938. He switched investment from FM and it was going to be a guy that's going to work on it at the top of the Empire State Building, which is, I mean, it's incredible to television. All right. Like, but it wasn't until the mid 50s that TV comes in and disrupts radio. But this is the crazy part. And I want to get your response to this is that in the same way. So podcast, the history radio, that's like a 30 year period. And then TV comes in and disrupts it. And In many regards, someone could simplistically kind of even go, and that's, you know, that was the end of radio. Okay. Podcasts, on-demand audio did like the same trajectory as radio, but a smaller pie in only 10 years. And then you go, okay, well, what's next? Oh, well, video's disrupting it with YouTube. Oh, okay, interesting. What really happened to radio after television came into the picture? And one thing that was emblematic of it for me is that a big point she made in the book is about World War II, that our view of World War II... because of movies and we do have photographs and there was some filming. We're like, oh, it was visual. It's like the way everybody experienced World War II was the radio, right?
Kraig Kitchin
The storytelling and the reports that happened.
Stew Redwine
But we've lost this view of radio. But after TV, it continued to grow. It was one of the most efficient mediums. And I just, so I look at podcasts and I think some people are negative Nellies. But I go, look at the history of radio. It's actually the best thing is almost that the focus goes over here and goes, oh, there's this big, bright, shiny thing over here. But the experience of audio, on-demand audio, the spoken word, that's not going to go away. And in fact, now it is going to continue to grow even if all the attention is over here.
Kraig Kitchin
Yeah, it's true. So if you think back to 1938, somebody takes a big swing on the television medium at a time when the living rooms of most Americans had a console in it, which was the radio. That's what people would sit around, the tubes that were glowing in the back and the heat and the smell of those tubes and just the live information coming from it. That was a first, right? So most nine people out of 10 would say, I'm going to continue to invest in that form of entertainment because that's where America is coming to, besides maybe newsreels and movie theaters. So Sardoff takes the big swing on that and instead of investing in FM, invest in TV.
Stew Redwine
Yeah.
Kraig Kitchin
Good. At the same time in 1938, and again through 1948 and 58 and 68, the explosion of American families owning private automobiles for the first time, that absolutely had a single form of entertainment in it, which was a radio. First the AM only, then the AM and the FM radio, and then at the same time, democratization of radio, because those big councils were reserved for the few. But the less expensive radios, including the transistor radios and some of the others that could be battery operated, obviously made it easier. I bring all of that history up just to say the ability to find a podcast or listen to audio in any form, which is simplistically in all of our phones, as an example, on all of our computers, on smart speakers, on any number of other devices, is the same thing that happened to radio in the 40s and 50s.
Stew Redwine
With the car. And I think another piece of that. connected completely is these. I'm holding up my headphones. Yes. And the quality of them. And that was the same idea with the radio in the car is the mobility of audio. Now I can listen to high quality audio mobily. And if we zoom forward a little bit, I never really appreciated this, but like I said, I've read a book now. It was that FM was better quality audio. So it's increasing quality and more mobility.
Kraig Kitchin
They wanted to hear music more clearly. And of course, FM provided a better, more superior way of listening to music than AM did. Just like your headphones does today.
Stew Redwine
Exactly. So Sarnoff doesn't decide to invest in FM, but it still developed. And it was still a fantastic advertising medium. And one of the points that came out of this that I appreciated from one of the advertisers is like, fine, don't come to audio. You think audio is dead or you think that's okay. That's less competition, right?
Kraig Kitchin
Yes.
Stew Redwine
So I'm very optimistic.
Kraig Kitchin
You can't help but leave a CAO summit after the conversations that we witnessed over two and a half days than being very optimistic. even in that. creative iterations that we heard yesterday, right? The ownership of creators, the people behind the microphone who are one part entertainers and one part salespeople, they understand the role. Whether or not it's Nick Vile or it's Ashley Flowers or it's Kim Commando or Stephen Bartlett or Ben Shapiro or any number of the other creators that we heard, all of them to a point and to a person totally understood I've got two jobs. One is to entertain and inform people. The other is to sell products. And there is a generation of refined podcasters in the thousands now that understand that role they have. That is a very different situation than even five years ago. And I think these chief audio officers, by their offers to invest not only their money, but also their time in explaining their products or services to these podcasters, you know, in whatever number of ongoing meetings and conversations they have, have just made that a great partnership.
Stew Redwine
Yeah. And look, I mean, you know, even as we're doing influencer and creator and YouTube and video and, you know, we do television commercials sometimes, it's like, no question, that's a bigger pie. But what's so encouraging to me in mapping the past over it is like, yeah, TV was way bigger than radio, but radio grew too. And it's a super efficient medium.
Kraig Kitchin
True. Think about all the television broadcasters that experienced great success, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, you know, all the to a point with few exceptions. They are not allowed to talk about products and services in the course of executing their duties. But there is a generation of audio broadcasters and podcasters, several now, that that is their second skill set. And we have the ability, this medium in particular, the audio medium in any form, just has that built-in audience acceptance if it's not overly abused by too many messages. the allowance that a couple of really bright commentators or podcasters can chop it up with one another in the process of talking about a great meat delivery company or a great software application or a great online app that provides a great solution for banking or whatever it might be. They don't run away from it as a perfunctory. They look forward to it as how do I create and accept the creative challenge of holding my audience's attention by explaining to them that online banking is better than branch banking. Just to use one... business example.
Stew Redwine
It's a great example. And I think it's this change from broadcast on demand of like, you know, you hear the word authenticity a lot and it can kind of give you, it can be like, oh, eye roll. But like, just imagine if you're watching NBA, you would never expect in the commercial break that Kevin Harlan goes into a personal endorsement of anything. And it's like, why, why not? And that's like, I think with the podcast selection, we touched on this as like, I don't want to see an edited sound by five minute video. This talk to the guy for three hours.
Kraig Kitchin
Exactly. Kevin Harlan is a great example because you hear him on radio and he does amazing live commercials inside of radio broadcasts for football games. Or you'll see him on television calling an NCAA basketball game. But because of the format and culture of that, he is not encouraged to or allowed to speak about the same advertiser that he might be speaking about the next night on a football game.
Stew Redwine
We might have figured out how to save live sports. You and me right here. Let these guys start doing endorsement. Turns out a live sporting events podcast. Who knew?
Kraig Kitchin
It may well be, right? I mean, they certainly look for other creative ways to include, and most of them are visual versus audio and visual. But yes, that may well turn out to be.
Stew Redwine
That's the kind of ideas we come up with here at the CAO Summit.
Kraig Kitchin
Wow. The inspiration continues on its fourth day here.
Stew Redwine
You know, something I did notice is that at one point there was a video was showcased where there was a synthetic human being with a synthetic voice. And what was remarkable to me about it, it was a very short video where it was like showcasing this host, like a digital host. And not one person remarked on it to me. Do you know the moment I'm talking about?
Kraig Kitchin
Yes.
Stew Redwine
And I thought my armchair psychologist part of me is like, oh, nobody even wants to like talk about like that was photorealistic, full on felt like that host was talking to us. But it was Gen AI and a synthetic voice.
Kraig Kitchin
It's like the popular band right now on Spotify. Bob Ness. band member in it. It's all synthetic. And I don't know yet if society at large or knowledgeable, learned audio experts, advertising experts have yet come to a conclusion or a consensus thought on how AI incorporated in the audio and video messages is going to be taken. You know, we don't, we haven't moved yet from the fake videos that have been created, you know, that, you know, may be misinformation, disinformation oriented to the... existence of it in advertising messages, you know, where it's one thing to maybe use one of the AI machine learning environments to create scripts. It's another thing to necessarily bring a person or a artificial person to life to advocate on behalf of a product.
Stew Redwine
Well, it's two quick thoughts on that. Then I've got a question. One is sometimes I think a lot of times we're looking at people out here on this balcony. It's beautiful. I know for me. A lot of times I feel like I'm a person walking around impersonating a person. It's like in the movie Tropic Thunder, where he's like, do you even know who you are? I'm a dude playing a dude disguised as another dude. I'm a dude playing a dude disguised as another dude. So in many ways, like people are fake.
Kraig Kitchin
Yeah, you could put on a face, you could put on a facade. You're right.
Stew Redwine
So what's the difference? You know, so anyway, that's just sort of anecdotal. Like, hmm, like, so let's be more real. But I did want to touch on creative, you know, at Oxford Road as of this week, we're patent pending with the whole audiolytic system. which is a system that we've developed. Dan started it. Dan Grange is the founder and CEO of Oxygen Dread. Started it in 2009. First time I worked on it was 2011. It has always been this very manual system. And now like Pinocchio has become a real boy just with the incredible power of AI agents and different multiple AI tools that have allowed us within Creative to build an entire ecosystem to generate. The creative, the main thing you're talking about, though, is funny. We asked ChatGPT, one of the main creatives we work with, Ezra Fox, asked ChatGPT to review this MIT article about when you think through a problem, there's a bunch of brain activity. When you use Google, there's less. And when you use ChatGPT, there's like zero. And ChatGPT said, well, I can't help you think more clearly, but it doesn't come without a cost.
Kraig Kitchin
A very honest revelation.
Stew Redwine
And that's part of like me even reading physical books is like I'm trying to... keep that real estate in my mind. And my point is this, you're like, where's it going to land where I'm landing, where we're landing with creative docs road is like, you have still got to have a human at the center. They're going to be using different tools and we'll be using a lot more tools, but you've got to have a human at the center that cares about the audience and the output, the relationship with the host and like honors that heart connection that it matters.
Kraig Kitchin
So analogy. it to somebody down the hall in the accounting department. There was a time where they calculated everything manually, carried the nine, carried the five, you know, the whole thing. Now, fast forward, they now have a calculator on their desk.
Stew Redwine
Yeah.
Kraig Kitchin
Or now they have an Excel spreadsheet on their desk. They're still a human being that's involved in interpreting the data and coming to a conclusion. The same thing, I think, is aptly said by yourself. There needs to be and will be a human being involved in that process if it's done right. to bring the emotion and the sensitivity of who the audience is and what the intended purpose is.
Stew Redwine
Exactly. It's care. It's unsolicited. That word has come up in a couple past episodes of Ad Infinitum is that the antidote almost to the fear of AI is caring. And what I've noticed, this is interesting. Initially, I'd say the last two years and then in recent months when it's really ramped up with AI and stuff, I saw creatives kind of either hunker and want to defend the old ways or sort of like get so discouraged that they don't even want to have output. And then there's this recent thing that's happened that I think is a good thing. It's like a market force where they're like, they now know that anybody they're dealing with can go to chat GPT and get like a starter of any creative output, a design, a script, even audio. So now it's like, oh, you got to level up. You got to show them why working with a human is so much better. And so it's really cool. I've seen some like, cause in advertising and creative, it can get cynical and people can get discouraged. It's just weird. mixture, right? A cynical kind of view of it is like, you know, anybody in creative and advertising is a failed artist, right? Like that's like the dark view. I'm like, yeah, they're an artist and they're an expressive, sensitive person. And that's cool. And they get an opportunity to do that, but they lost their love. And actually AI, the ones that are staying in it, it's giving their love back because now they got to show they love it.
Kraig Kitchin
It's a creative infusion of a different sort. And it's a practical reality. And it can be a very helpful tool because they're in control of whether or not to use the output or not use the output. In a year... 2025 when scientists have redeveloped a different wooden baseball bat for the New York Yankees to use because they put their mathematical minds to it and said, all right, we're going to approach our problem solving of hitting the ball further differently. It's all right to acknowledge that AI involved in copywriting and creative executions is permitted as well. There's probably a better metaphor than that. maybe aluminum bats versus wooden bats in baseball, whatever it is. And that was also technology driven.
Stew Redwine
I think that is a fantastic metaphor because what I also like about it is we're still using wooden bats.
Kraig Kitchin
Yes. And we're choosing to pick them up when we want to. And when we don't write different execution, you mentioned authenticity.
Stew Redwine
Yeah.
Kraig Kitchin
And how important, how many times different advertisers talked about. the fact that they wanted to be in authentic environments.
Stew Redwine
Yeah, and the hosts were talking about, it's like we had a dollar for every time somebody said that word the last three days, we'd have a thousand dollars.
Kraig Kitchin
That is exactly my thought. Because as you brought that word up in this conversation, that was one of the primary themes in addition to attribution and the definition of what podcasts are and the protection that advertisers want to telegraph to publishers. Don't overexploit a good thing. Yes. Keep your commercial inventory properly maintained. Don't turn it into two thirds content, one third advertising. Leave it in a 90-10 model because or whatever the number is percentage wise, because that's what's keeping the listener coming back for every episode that is created audio or visually.
Stew Redwine
Yeah. And I do think, you know, again, trying to learn from the past is like it's not all roses with the history of radio and the commercialization of it and it did get to that point where You know, the point it's at now where it's 20 minutes out of every hour or more.
Kraig Kitchin
Certainly in the spoken word formats, yes.
Stew Redwine
Yes, you've got to move the market incentive away from that.
Kraig Kitchin
And the solution, of course, is brilliant creative that brings a return on investment. By that I mean brings an audience to want to take action on a product or service in a way that you don't need to run so much advertising to be able to create the kind of return on investment that advertisers need to continue.
Stew Redwine
You know, and I've never had this thought before. It's a simple thought, but it's just amazing how much, you know, on demand has changed our concern. I mean, broadcast, you've got to watch the commercial. You've got to listen to the commercial. You must, you are required.
Kraig Kitchin
Yes.
Stew Redwine
You're no longer required.
Kraig Kitchin
Not in today's era of video streaming.
Stew Redwine
Yeah. We're on a podcast, you know, video or audio. So then that's an interesting dynamic of pushing people to, like you said, big theme here is vulnerability with people. How can we do this better? And then with that comes even authenticity. amongst each other. And then that's where we want to go with the medium. Any closing thoughts for the chief audio officers that are listening?
Kraig Kitchin
It is for those that are listening that attended the CAO Summit. I thank you from the bottom of my heart as just one consumer for not only taking the time to attend, but coming undistracted and sharing your best thoughts and sharing your openness and you're willing to collaborate, you're willing to problem solve with others to, like you say, take off the helmet, take off the jersey and just participate. in an industry of conversation, of problem solving and dreaming. What could we do next? How can we make this coveted part of our responsibilities even better and more productive for them in their own role? It was an extraordinary effort, not just to travel, because this is obviously a beautiful destination, but to just come and be all in, not be distracted, not have your laptop open, but have your mind open to all of these great conversations. That, to me, is the closing message to me.
Stew Redwine
Couldn't have said it better myself. Thank you so much, Craig, for coming on Ad Infinitum yet again. We tend to do these around the CAO Summit, so I say we keep it going.
Kraig Kitchin
Thank you for keeping the Ad Infinitum message going all year long and bringing great guests to the conversation, too. That doesn't happen by accident.
Stew Redwine
Well, it means a lot coming from you, and I'm very grateful you did this. So thank you, Craig.
Kraig Kitchin
Thank you, Stu.

Chapters

Introduction to Ad Infinitum
0sec
Reflections on the CAO Summit
42sec
The Importance of Vulnerability in Business
1min
Challenges in Podcast Advertising
2min
Audience Measurement and Attribution
4min
Creative Executions and ROI in Audio
6min
History of Radio and Its Impact on Podcasts
8min
The Role of AI in Creative Processes
12min
The Future of Audio Advertising
18min
Closing Thoughts and Collaboration in Audio
24min

Embed

Introduction to Ad Infinitum

0sec

Reflections on the CAO Summit

42sec

The Importance of Vulnerability in Business

1min

Challenges in Podcast Advertising

2min

Audience Measurement and Attribution

4min

Creative Executions and ROI in Audio

6min

History of Radio and Its Impact on Podcasts

8min

The Role of AI in Creative Processes

12min

The Future of Audio Advertising

18min

Closing Thoughts and Collaboration in Audio

24min

Transcription

Stew Redwine
This is Ad Infinitum. Ad Infinitum is the award-winning podcast solely focused on audio ads, the creatives who make them and or the latest thinking that informs them, how the space is evolving, and my favorite part, a roundup of recent audio ads with analysis by yours truly, Stu Redwine, and each episode's guest. You're listening to Ad Infinitum, the only podcast about audio ads, how they're made and how to make them work better. And I'm here with Craig T. Kitchen, and we just wrapped up the CAO Summit, the third one. here in 2025 for Oxford Road. Craig, what do you think?
Kraig Kitchin
I dare say the fourth Chief Audio Officer Summit is probably going to be a sold-out event next year. When I say sold-out, standing room only is probably a better definition. And I say that because the number of people leaving the third annual Chief Audio Officer Summit, CAO Summit, is probably going to speak to five or 10 or 15 individuals in the course of the next two or three months. about all the learning that came out of this. And I think there's going to be that much more demand to want to be a part of the conversations next year because there was a lot of topics taken on.
Stew Redwine
Yeah.
Kraig Kitchin
And a lot of problems solved and a lot of information shared. The overwhelming sensation I have from this morning thinking about the CAO event is how forthcoming everybody was in the conversations debating the heavy topics of the day. They brought their best material and they were not... they didn't hold back on the vulnerabilities of the goods, the bads, and the uglies of what it is they do, right?
Stew Redwine
Yes, and I think that that's the real magic to me. We were talking about it last night of like this idea of, you know, when we go into business, it can be somewhat of a problematic metaphor to compare it too much to combat, but it can feel like that, a competition, a sporting event, and you put your uniform on, you put your helmet on, you put your pads on, you're playing to win, and that's appropriate. you need to wear all that equipment and go out there. Let's make it football. It's football. There's something just so, and rarely do you take off the pads and the helmet and that you only do that in the locker room. You only do that with your team. But here you see where it's like, once somebody takes off their equipment and shows some vulnerability and opens up and is like, this is hard. This podcasting thing is hard. This audio thing is hard, especially with video. And they, people start opening up and sharing it. encourages other people to share and they really get encouragement because it's a pitch-free environment.
Kraig Kitchin
Yes. The single largest user of podcast advertising in the past five years was in conversations over the last two days in the midst of 70 plus other chief audio officers or evangelists for audio who also were in attendance. To see that individual speak about the easy paths forward or the really difficult forwards or the curveballs that has come that company's way. And to watch other people say, wow, if that person is having that many challenges getting it done with the buying power that that company represents, imagine what it must like be for me. So I'm not alone in thinking this through. And at the same time, it's not like, OK, I'm going to wither away from that is all right. But how do we align ourselves when our helmets are off and our equipment is away? I'm just actually solving that for the next day.
Stew Redwine
Yeah. And I also think it's like you get the solutions, you get that. you're inspired by like oh you know there's some folks you put on mount olympus like you're saying these massive advertisers and then they're in this environment where it's like oh they don't know what they're doing either not that they don't know what they're doing but they have challenges too yes you know like i told you that story where back in the day when i was doing like gripping electric work i drove a truck into this big garage door it's like a 15 foot garage door i thought it was all the way up and you can't when you're in like a five ton truck you can't even feel if you've hit something and then it was like wait a second i get out i realized i didn't this guy's garage door. So I called Troy Paddock. I'm like, I can't believe this. I ran into this store and he's been in the business longer than I've been alive. He's like, oh, I've done that a dozen times. And it was like, oh,
Kraig Kitchin
that is a great metaphor for the experience of somebody who's been there and done that.
Stew Redwine
That's it.
Kraig Kitchin
And others who are just getting into the process of doing it and have not done it entirely in every way, shape and form. And that's what we saw. If there were two conversation points that were really taken on yesterday that were really. invigorating to try to problem solve. One of them is how do we account for all of the collective audiences coming to listen or view a podcast in all the forms, right? The word is out that 25% of consumption of podcast happens visually on YouTube. There are other platforms that also offer podcast exposures as well, whether or not it's from X to Rumble and others, coupled with the origins of podcasts, which are audio based. And there are dozens of avenues. for listening to those. But the question is, how do you add apples plus oranges and bananas to get a final number? And then on top of that, do we count for full listening episodes, partial listening episodes, tune in, tune out, come back again, and to find and see rooms where every company involved in the counting and the attribution of that are coming together to speak about it in full view of the users of it, these companies, dozens and dozens of companies. And they're all chopping it up, trying to figure it out and make sense of it so that they can leave the room with a clear answer. Where else are you going to find that?
Stew Redwine
This is the only context because I kind of extending the football metaphor. It's like it is proper and appropriate that during a game everybody's playing to win. That's not the time to stop and pull Tom Brady aside and go, hey, could you give me some tips on how to. We're focused. But here we have this pause moment. And I have to say it's a beautiful place to pause where it's here and there. Can you describe what you're seeing here, Craig?
Kraig Kitchin
I have a full... unadulterated view of the Pacific Ocean, islands and the island of Catalina in particular.
Stew Redwine
It's Catalina wine mix.
Kraig Kitchin
Off the coast, there is a good 15 or 20 miles of ocean in front of us, barely occupied by large freighters that are coming out of the Long Beach port, but most importantly, just a beautiful shoreline and a great outdoor setting. I mean, being close to water really represents, you know, a freedom of spirit and all the other things that go about it. And so this backdrop really just brought everybody into a great mood and a place to want to share. And I think in the end, what's happened out of this is a great set of conversations on creative executions and podcast environments, the importance of the baked in message, the, you know, the live embedded message, you know, from really, really talented hosts, the company's return on investment that they're getting in the podcast medium, not only domestically, but internationally now.
Stew Redwine
Yeah.
Kraig Kitchin
And to just see. For many companies, this avenue of advertising is the single best return on investment avenue. They want to continue on broadcast television, on streaming television, and in other audio forms than just podcast and audio streaming, including broadcast radio. But they identify in particular that podcast advertising and streaming audio are two of the best return on investment vehicles that they have. And for them to come and explore other ways to further exploit it and to grow the medium and they, I think instinctually. It was said in conversation, when we realize it is a $3 billion plus industry, maybe even $4 billion by the time we count the revenues coming from the YouTube platform, they realize the significance of that. Because if there is more money in the water, there are more talented hosts and creative productions that are going to take place, which is going to captivate the last 45% of Americans to actually consume and enjoy podcasts more regularly. if the majority of Americans are already... taking this information in, in the form of entertainment or information or both?
Stew Redwine
Absolutely. You know, recently I've been, we touched a little bit of on radio's history in the summit, and I've just been finishing up this book. I'm getting out this book right now to show Craig, listening in, Radio and the American Imagination by Susan J. Douglas, and it's a history of radio.
Kraig Kitchin
Wow. From Amos and Andy to Howard Stern.
Stew Redwine
Yes. And as I've gone through it, I've been mapping like podcasts history. completely maps over radio's history. And so what's been encouraging to me is, and you know radio's history, obviously, is like, we already know the future. We know how this is going to go. And so this is what I mean. It took radio about 30 years to get supplanted by television, right? Sarnoff, the guy over there at NBC, like he started, he made a decision to either invest in FM, which I learned means frequency modulation, and AM means amplitude modulating.
Kraig Kitchin
You read the book.
Stew Redwine
Read a book, Craig. But what was interesting, I was like, it was like 1938. He switched investment from FM and it was going to be a guy that's going to work on it at the top of the Empire State Building, which is, I mean, it's incredible to television. All right. Like, but it wasn't until the mid 50s that TV comes in and disrupts radio. But this is the crazy part. And I want to get your response to this is that in the same way. So podcast, the history radio, that's like a 30 year period. And then TV comes in and disrupts it. And In many regards, someone could simplistically kind of even go, and that's, you know, that was the end of radio. Okay. Podcasts, on-demand audio did like the same trajectory as radio, but a smaller pie in only 10 years. And then you go, okay, well, what's next? Oh, well, video's disrupting it with YouTube. Oh, okay, interesting. What really happened to radio after television came into the picture? And one thing that was emblematic of it for me is that a big point she made in the book is about World War II, that our view of World War II... because of movies and we do have photographs and there was some filming. We're like, oh, it was visual. It's like the way everybody experienced World War II was the radio, right?
Kraig Kitchin
The storytelling and the reports that happened.
Stew Redwine
But we've lost this view of radio. But after TV, it continued to grow. It was one of the most efficient mediums. And I just, so I look at podcasts and I think some people are negative Nellies. But I go, look at the history of radio. It's actually the best thing is almost that the focus goes over here and goes, oh, there's this big, bright, shiny thing over here. But the experience of audio, on-demand audio, the spoken word, that's not going to go away. And in fact, now it is going to continue to grow even if all the attention is over here.
Kraig Kitchin
Yeah, it's true. So if you think back to 1938, somebody takes a big swing on the television medium at a time when the living rooms of most Americans had a console in it, which was the radio. That's what people would sit around, the tubes that were glowing in the back and the heat and the smell of those tubes and just the live information coming from it. That was a first, right? So most nine people out of 10 would say, I'm going to continue to invest in that form of entertainment because that's where America is coming to, besides maybe newsreels and movie theaters. So Sardoff takes the big swing on that and instead of investing in FM, invest in TV.
Stew Redwine
Yeah.
Kraig Kitchin
Good. At the same time in 1938, and again through 1948 and 58 and 68, the explosion of American families owning private automobiles for the first time, that absolutely had a single form of entertainment in it, which was a radio. First the AM only, then the AM and the FM radio, and then at the same time, democratization of radio, because those big councils were reserved for the few. But the less expensive radios, including the transistor radios and some of the others that could be battery operated, obviously made it easier. I bring all of that history up just to say the ability to find a podcast or listen to audio in any form, which is simplistically in all of our phones, as an example, on all of our computers, on smart speakers, on any number of other devices, is the same thing that happened to radio in the 40s and 50s.
Stew Redwine
With the car. And I think another piece of that. connected completely is these. I'm holding up my headphones. Yes. And the quality of them. And that was the same idea with the radio in the car is the mobility of audio. Now I can listen to high quality audio mobily. And if we zoom forward a little bit, I never really appreciated this, but like I said, I've read a book now. It was that FM was better quality audio. So it's increasing quality and more mobility.
Kraig Kitchin
They wanted to hear music more clearly. And of course, FM provided a better, more superior way of listening to music than AM did. Just like your headphones does today.
Stew Redwine
Exactly. So Sarnoff doesn't decide to invest in FM, but it still developed. And it was still a fantastic advertising medium. And one of the points that came out of this that I appreciated from one of the advertisers is like, fine, don't come to audio. You think audio is dead or you think that's okay. That's less competition, right?
Kraig Kitchin
Yes.
Stew Redwine
So I'm very optimistic.
Kraig Kitchin
You can't help but leave a CAO summit after the conversations that we witnessed over two and a half days than being very optimistic. even in that. creative iterations that we heard yesterday, right? The ownership of creators, the people behind the microphone who are one part entertainers and one part salespeople, they understand the role. Whether or not it's Nick Vile or it's Ashley Flowers or it's Kim Commando or Stephen Bartlett or Ben Shapiro or any number of the other creators that we heard, all of them to a point and to a person totally understood I've got two jobs. One is to entertain and inform people. The other is to sell products. And there is a generation of refined podcasters in the thousands now that understand that role they have. That is a very different situation than even five years ago. And I think these chief audio officers, by their offers to invest not only their money, but also their time in explaining their products or services to these podcasters, you know, in whatever number of ongoing meetings and conversations they have, have just made that a great partnership.
Stew Redwine
Yeah. And look, I mean, you know, even as we're doing influencer and creator and YouTube and video and, you know, we do television commercials sometimes, it's like, no question, that's a bigger pie. But what's so encouraging to me in mapping the past over it is like, yeah, TV was way bigger than radio, but radio grew too. And it's a super efficient medium.
Kraig Kitchin
True. Think about all the television broadcasters that experienced great success, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, you know, all the to a point with few exceptions. They are not allowed to talk about products and services in the course of executing their duties. But there is a generation of audio broadcasters and podcasters, several now, that that is their second skill set. And we have the ability, this medium in particular, the audio medium in any form, just has that built-in audience acceptance if it's not overly abused by too many messages. the allowance that a couple of really bright commentators or podcasters can chop it up with one another in the process of talking about a great meat delivery company or a great software application or a great online app that provides a great solution for banking or whatever it might be. They don't run away from it as a perfunctory. They look forward to it as how do I create and accept the creative challenge of holding my audience's attention by explaining to them that online banking is better than branch banking. Just to use one... business example.
Stew Redwine
It's a great example. And I think it's this change from broadcast on demand of like, you know, you hear the word authenticity a lot and it can kind of give you, it can be like, oh, eye roll. But like, just imagine if you're watching NBA, you would never expect in the commercial break that Kevin Harlan goes into a personal endorsement of anything. And it's like, why, why not? And that's like, I think with the podcast selection, we touched on this as like, I don't want to see an edited sound by five minute video. This talk to the guy for three hours.
Kraig Kitchin
Exactly. Kevin Harlan is a great example because you hear him on radio and he does amazing live commercials inside of radio broadcasts for football games. Or you'll see him on television calling an NCAA basketball game. But because of the format and culture of that, he is not encouraged to or allowed to speak about the same advertiser that he might be speaking about the next night on a football game.
Stew Redwine
We might have figured out how to save live sports. You and me right here. Let these guys start doing endorsement. Turns out a live sporting events podcast. Who knew?
Kraig Kitchin
It may well be, right? I mean, they certainly look for other creative ways to include, and most of them are visual versus audio and visual. But yes, that may well turn out to be.
Stew Redwine
That's the kind of ideas we come up with here at the CAO Summit.
Kraig Kitchin
Wow. The inspiration continues on its fourth day here.
Stew Redwine
You know, something I did notice is that at one point there was a video was showcased where there was a synthetic human being with a synthetic voice. And what was remarkable to me about it, it was a very short video where it was like showcasing this host, like a digital host. And not one person remarked on it to me. Do you know the moment I'm talking about?
Kraig Kitchin
Yes.
Stew Redwine
And I thought my armchair psychologist part of me is like, oh, nobody even wants to like talk about like that was photorealistic, full on felt like that host was talking to us. But it was Gen AI and a synthetic voice.
Kraig Kitchin
It's like the popular band right now on Spotify. Bob Ness. band member in it. It's all synthetic. And I don't know yet if society at large or knowledgeable, learned audio experts, advertising experts have yet come to a conclusion or a consensus thought on how AI incorporated in the audio and video messages is going to be taken. You know, we don't, we haven't moved yet from the fake videos that have been created, you know, that, you know, may be misinformation, disinformation oriented to the... existence of it in advertising messages, you know, where it's one thing to maybe use one of the AI machine learning environments to create scripts. It's another thing to necessarily bring a person or a artificial person to life to advocate on behalf of a product.
Stew Redwine
Well, it's two quick thoughts on that. Then I've got a question. One is sometimes I think a lot of times we're looking at people out here on this balcony. It's beautiful. I know for me. A lot of times I feel like I'm a person walking around impersonating a person. It's like in the movie Tropic Thunder, where he's like, do you even know who you are? I'm a dude playing a dude disguised as another dude. I'm a dude playing a dude disguised as another dude. So in many ways, like people are fake.
Kraig Kitchin
Yeah, you could put on a face, you could put on a facade. You're right.
Stew Redwine
So what's the difference? You know, so anyway, that's just sort of anecdotal. Like, hmm, like, so let's be more real. But I did want to touch on creative, you know, at Oxford Road as of this week, we're patent pending with the whole audiolytic system. which is a system that we've developed. Dan started it. Dan Grange is the founder and CEO of Oxygen Dread. Started it in 2009. First time I worked on it was 2011. It has always been this very manual system. And now like Pinocchio has become a real boy just with the incredible power of AI agents and different multiple AI tools that have allowed us within Creative to build an entire ecosystem to generate. The creative, the main thing you're talking about, though, is funny. We asked ChatGPT, one of the main creatives we work with, Ezra Fox, asked ChatGPT to review this MIT article about when you think through a problem, there's a bunch of brain activity. When you use Google, there's less. And when you use ChatGPT, there's like zero. And ChatGPT said, well, I can't help you think more clearly, but it doesn't come without a cost.
Kraig Kitchin
A very honest revelation.
Stew Redwine
And that's part of like me even reading physical books is like I'm trying to... keep that real estate in my mind. And my point is this, you're like, where's it going to land where I'm landing, where we're landing with creative docs road is like, you have still got to have a human at the center. They're going to be using different tools and we'll be using a lot more tools, but you've got to have a human at the center that cares about the audience and the output, the relationship with the host and like honors that heart connection that it matters.
Kraig Kitchin
So analogy. it to somebody down the hall in the accounting department. There was a time where they calculated everything manually, carried the nine, carried the five, you know, the whole thing. Now, fast forward, they now have a calculator on their desk.
Stew Redwine
Yeah.
Kraig Kitchin
Or now they have an Excel spreadsheet on their desk. They're still a human being that's involved in interpreting the data and coming to a conclusion. The same thing, I think, is aptly said by yourself. There needs to be and will be a human being involved in that process if it's done right. to bring the emotion and the sensitivity of who the audience is and what the intended purpose is.
Stew Redwine
Exactly. It's care. It's unsolicited. That word has come up in a couple past episodes of Ad Infinitum is that the antidote almost to the fear of AI is caring. And what I've noticed, this is interesting. Initially, I'd say the last two years and then in recent months when it's really ramped up with AI and stuff, I saw creatives kind of either hunker and want to defend the old ways or sort of like get so discouraged that they don't even want to have output. And then there's this recent thing that's happened that I think is a good thing. It's like a market force where they're like, they now know that anybody they're dealing with can go to chat GPT and get like a starter of any creative output, a design, a script, even audio. So now it's like, oh, you got to level up. You got to show them why working with a human is so much better. And so it's really cool. I've seen some like, cause in advertising and creative, it can get cynical and people can get discouraged. It's just weird. mixture, right? A cynical kind of view of it is like, you know, anybody in creative and advertising is a failed artist, right? Like that's like the dark view. I'm like, yeah, they're an artist and they're an expressive, sensitive person. And that's cool. And they get an opportunity to do that, but they lost their love. And actually AI, the ones that are staying in it, it's giving their love back because now they got to show they love it.
Kraig Kitchin
It's a creative infusion of a different sort. And it's a practical reality. And it can be a very helpful tool because they're in control of whether or not to use the output or not use the output. In a year... 2025 when scientists have redeveloped a different wooden baseball bat for the New York Yankees to use because they put their mathematical minds to it and said, all right, we're going to approach our problem solving of hitting the ball further differently. It's all right to acknowledge that AI involved in copywriting and creative executions is permitted as well. There's probably a better metaphor than that. maybe aluminum bats versus wooden bats in baseball, whatever it is. And that was also technology driven.
Stew Redwine
I think that is a fantastic metaphor because what I also like about it is we're still using wooden bats.
Kraig Kitchin
Yes. And we're choosing to pick them up when we want to. And when we don't write different execution, you mentioned authenticity.
Stew Redwine
Yeah.
Kraig Kitchin
And how important, how many times different advertisers talked about. the fact that they wanted to be in authentic environments.
Stew Redwine
Yeah, and the hosts were talking about, it's like we had a dollar for every time somebody said that word the last three days, we'd have a thousand dollars.
Kraig Kitchin
That is exactly my thought. Because as you brought that word up in this conversation, that was one of the primary themes in addition to attribution and the definition of what podcasts are and the protection that advertisers want to telegraph to publishers. Don't overexploit a good thing. Yes. Keep your commercial inventory properly maintained. Don't turn it into two thirds content, one third advertising. Leave it in a 90-10 model because or whatever the number is percentage wise, because that's what's keeping the listener coming back for every episode that is created audio or visually.
Stew Redwine
Yeah. And I do think, you know, again, trying to learn from the past is like it's not all roses with the history of radio and the commercialization of it and it did get to that point where You know, the point it's at now where it's 20 minutes out of every hour or more.
Kraig Kitchin
Certainly in the spoken word formats, yes.
Stew Redwine
Yes, you've got to move the market incentive away from that.
Kraig Kitchin
And the solution, of course, is brilliant creative that brings a return on investment. By that I mean brings an audience to want to take action on a product or service in a way that you don't need to run so much advertising to be able to create the kind of return on investment that advertisers need to continue.
Stew Redwine
You know, and I've never had this thought before. It's a simple thought, but it's just amazing how much, you know, on demand has changed our concern. I mean, broadcast, you've got to watch the commercial. You've got to listen to the commercial. You must, you are required.
Kraig Kitchin
Yes.
Stew Redwine
You're no longer required.
Kraig Kitchin
Not in today's era of video streaming.
Stew Redwine
Yeah. We're on a podcast, you know, video or audio. So then that's an interesting dynamic of pushing people to, like you said, big theme here is vulnerability with people. How can we do this better? And then with that comes even authenticity. amongst each other. And then that's where we want to go with the medium. Any closing thoughts for the chief audio officers that are listening?
Kraig Kitchin
It is for those that are listening that attended the CAO Summit. I thank you from the bottom of my heart as just one consumer for not only taking the time to attend, but coming undistracted and sharing your best thoughts and sharing your openness and you're willing to collaborate, you're willing to problem solve with others to, like you say, take off the helmet, take off the jersey and just participate. in an industry of conversation, of problem solving and dreaming. What could we do next? How can we make this coveted part of our responsibilities even better and more productive for them in their own role? It was an extraordinary effort, not just to travel, because this is obviously a beautiful destination, but to just come and be all in, not be distracted, not have your laptop open, but have your mind open to all of these great conversations. That, to me, is the closing message to me.
Stew Redwine
Couldn't have said it better myself. Thank you so much, Craig, for coming on Ad Infinitum yet again. We tend to do these around the CAO Summit, so I say we keep it going.
Kraig Kitchin
Thank you for keeping the Ad Infinitum message going all year long and bringing great guests to the conversation, too. That doesn't happen by accident.
Stew Redwine
Well, it means a lot coming from you, and I'm very grateful you did this. So thank you, Craig.
Kraig Kitchin
Thank you, Stu.

Chapters

Introduction to Ad Infinitum

0sec

Reflections on the CAO Summit

42sec

The Importance of Vulnerability in Business

1min

Challenges in Podcast Advertising

2min

Audience Measurement and Attribution

4min

Creative Executions and ROI in Audio

6min

History of Radio and Its Impact on Podcasts

8min

The Role of AI in Creative Processes

12min

The Future of Audio Advertising

18min

Closing Thoughts and Collaboration in Audio

24min