Transcription

• Speaker #0

  Welcome, curious minds, to another deep dive. Today, we're digging into something, well, pretty universal, I think.

• Speaker #1

  Oh, yeah. What's that?

• Speaker #0

  That kind of unsettling doubt. And when you first step into a new complex role.

• Speaker #1

  Ah, okay. That feeling.

• Speaker #0

  Especially if you have to, like, teach or transmit knowledge to others. It can be really unnerving.

• Speaker #1

  It really can. That moment of, hang on, I thought I had this down, but explaining it, suddenly it's all fuzzy.

• Speaker #0

  Exactly. Fuzzy is a good word. and We've got a fantastic source for this today.

• Speaker #1

  We do. It's an interview with Caroline Burscher de Femini. She's a certified Stoat Pilates trainer, founded BioPilates Paris. Right. And importantly, she's been training instructors for, what, over 17 years? So she's seen this firsthand many, many times.

• Speaker #0

  17 years. Wow. Okay. So our mission here is to really unpack her insights, why these first-day jitters, these feelings of maybe not being good enough, why they're not just normal, but maybe even, well, necessary.

• Speaker #1

  Essential even. Essential steps on the way to actually mastering something and feeling legitimate in that role.

• Speaker #0

  Okay. You've shared the source material. Let's help everyone extract the key ideas. Let's jump in.

• Speaker #1

  Sounds good.

• Speaker #0

  So Caroline mentions observing a beautiful vulnerability in new trainees. Yeah. What kind of specific doubts pop up right at the beginning on day one?

• Speaker #1

  Oh, it's quite consistent. You hear things like, uh... I thought I remembered everything, but I just can't seem to explain it now. Or I can't find the right words. And the big one is often just, I don't feel legitimate doing this.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, that legitimacy piece feels huge.

• Speaker #1

  It is. And what's really interesting is this happens even to people who are super prepared. They've done all the reading, practiced like crazy.

• Speaker #0

  Check all the boxes.

• Speaker #1

  Exactly. But day one, bam, everything feels kind of jumbled. Like the knowledge is there, but it's suddenly all mixed up.

• Speaker #0

  That sounds incredibly frustrating, that feeling of being overwhelmed right out of the gate. What does Caroline say to someone in that exact moment?

• Speaker #1

  Her immediate response is actually really grounding. She tells them, you are exactly where you need to be. She frames that first day as a meeting. Yes, with the method or the material, but she says, especially a meeting with oneself in a new role.

• Speaker #0

  A meeting with oneself. I like that.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, it's powerful because teaching or guiding. isn't just repeating information. She says it's about living it, understanding it in your own body.

• Speaker #0

  Right. Embodying it.

• Speaker #1

  And then learning to make it pass, to transmit it with accuracy and importantly, with humility, too. It's a whole different skill set than just knowing.

• Speaker #0

  That makes so much sense. Yes. It's not just about the what, but the how of sharing it.

• Speaker #1

  Precisely.

• Speaker #0

  OK, so moving on slightly. One thing Caroline hears a lot is, yeah, I'm struggling to remember everything, even though I thought I learned it well. That sounds like classic failure, right? Like. I'm just not getting it.

• Speaker #1

  You'd think so, wouldn't you? But Caroline has a completely different take. She actually says it's not only normal, it's desirable.

• Speaker #0

  Desirable. Really?

• Speaker #1

  How? Desirable. She sees it as proof that a, quote, deep process is taking place. The brain isn't just passively storing info. It's actively working. She talks about the brain sorting, reorganizing, connecting. It's not forgetting. She calls it integration. It's like your brain is busy. Building new pathways, making sense of it all in a deeper way.

• Speaker #0

  Integration, not forgetting. That's a really key shift in perspective. So what does that integration process actually feel like for the learner? What does it mean practically?

• Speaker #1

  Well, practically, it means you just can't absorb and perfectly recall everything instantly. It's impossible.

• Speaker #0

  Right. Information overload.

• Speaker #1

  Exactly. And that's why good training takes time, right? It's often spread over days or weeks. You need those periods for... repetition, getting feedback, trying again, maybe saying it differently.

• Speaker #0

  The reformulation part.

• Speaker #1

  Yes. Carolyn really emphasizes that it's an intelligent repetition that clarity is born. It's not just mindless repeating, but thoughtful practice.

• Speaker #0

  Okay.

• Speaker #1

  Think about learning a language. At first you might understand a lot, but speaking, that's harder. You search for words.

• Speaker #0

  Oh yeah, definitely been there.

• Speaker #1

  Right. That intellectual knowledge needs to become something you can actually use, pedagogical knowledge, embodied knowledge. That's a shift from just being in your head to being something you can do and explain fluidly.

• Speaker #0

  That transition from understanding it yourself to actually explaining it. That seems to be a major sticking point. Yeah. What about when people say, I felt like I understood it, but the second I have to explain it, it all goes blurry.

• Speaker #1

  Ah, yes. The blur. Caroline calls this a pivotal moment.

• Speaker #0

  Pivotal? How so?

• Speaker #1

  Because understanding for yourself is one thing. A huge thing, actually. But teaching it, that's a whole other level. It requires, as she puts it, translating. Translating. Yeah, translating that internal feeling, that sensory understanding into words that are clear, accurate, and actually help someone else learn. And she stresses that takes time. It really does. In her world, she says, you're learning to speak Pilates, but it applies everywhere. You're learning to speak the language of whatever new skill or role you're in. First, you stumble, you search for the words, and then eventually with practice, they start to flow more naturally.

• Speaker #0

  So that initial blur, that moment of panic when you try to explain. It's not necessarily bad.

• Speaker #1

  Not at all. She sees it as a foundational doubt.

• Speaker #0

  Foundational doubt.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, and it's useful. It makes you go back to the basics, the core ideas. It forces you to clarify, okay, what do I really know here?

• Speaker #0

  And that struggle helps you teach it better.

• Speaker #1

  Exactly. It helps you learn to transmit the essential information accurately without getting bogged down in, you know, tons of irrelevant details or just assuming your listener knows things they don't. That discomfort sharpens your focus.

• Speaker #0

  OK, that makes sense. But what about the fear, the fear of messing up, saying the wrong thing or just feeling like a total fraud, that feeling of illegitimacy?

• Speaker #1

  Oh, that's a big one. Absolutely. And Caroline addresses it with a lot of respect. She actually sees those feelings as a positive sign.

• Speaker #0

  How is feeling like a fraud positive?

• Speaker #1

  Because it shows the person takes their role seriously. They care about doing it right. For her, legitimacy isn't about never having doubts. It comes from, and I'm quoting her here, our commitment to do our best, to learn, to correct, to evolve. It's an active process, not a static state.

• Speaker #0

  So you don't have to show up perfect on day one. That's probably a huge relief for people to hear.

• Speaker #1

  A massive relief. She's very clear. We don't ask a future instructor to be perfect. What they ask for is sincerity, rigor, and curiosity.

• Speaker #0

  Sincere, rigorous, curious. Okay.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. The rest, she says, builds with practice. Her advice is really practical. Teach what you f***. Feel not what you imagine. Focus on your genuine understanding. And she points out the real danger isn't making a mistake now and then. We all do. The real danger is empty automatism.

• Speaker #0

  Is going through the motions.

• Speaker #1

  Precisely. Without real presence or understanding, legitimacy isn't like a badge you pin on. It's something you earn through that journey of doubting, observing, adjusting, seeking.

• Speaker #0

  So the doubt is part of the seeking.

• Speaker #1

  Absolutely. A good instructor or any expert really doubts. They observe carefully. They adjust their approach. They keep learning, teaching, guiding. It's about serving the other person, helping them find precision and awareness.

• Speaker #0

  It sounds like presence is key.

• Speaker #1

  Huge. Being present, really listening, watching, and even being able to say, you know what, I don't know the answer to that right now, but I'll find out. That shows real integrity. That's an instructor or a leader in the making.

• Speaker #0

  Let's talk about the actual words trainees often wrestle with. How much to say, right? I didn't say enough or, oh gosh, I talked way too much. Finding that balance.

• Speaker #1

  Yes. And Carolyn calls that specific struggle one of the most beautiful journeys of teaching.

• Speaker #0

  A beautiful journey, even when it feels awkward.

• Speaker #1

  Apparently so. Because it's about learning that delicate dance. When to speak, when to be silent, when to guide, when to let go. It's completely normal at first to either ramble on or clam up.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, I can relate to both of those.

• Speaker #1

  Right. And the language you use, whether it's in Pilates or explaining code or managing a project, it's not neutral. The words you choose, the way you structure things, it actively guides the other person's experience.

• Speaker #0

  So how do you get better at that? How do you refine that language, find that balance?

• Speaker #1

  Well, no surprise here. It refines with experience.

• Speaker #0

  Practice, practice, practice.

• Speaker #1

  Pretty much. But it's not just about following a script or a manual. It's about tuning in, listening to yourself. but crucially listening to the person you're guiding. It's about constantly adjusting, simplifying, trying to find the clearest, most essential way to say something. She mentions that eventually you might find that with a simple phrase and a look, you can shift someone's entire understanding or posture. But she cautions that day is not day one. That kind of economy and precision is earned. It comes after the initial struggle.

• Speaker #0

  That makes sense. It's like distilling complexity down to its essence.

• Speaker #1

  Exactly. And knowing when less is more.

• Speaker #0

  OK, so let's say you've made it to the first day, maybe the first week, but you still feel it's still blurry. I don't feel comfortable yet. Does that mean you're failing?

• Speaker #1

  According to Caroline, absolutely not. Her response would likely be congratulations. You have started.

• Speaker #0

  OK, so the blurriness is the start.

• Speaker #1

  Yes. She sees that ongoing blur as the entry into a new language, a new inner posture and the discomfort, that feeling of not being quite settled. She calls it the witness of your transformation.

• Speaker #0

  The witness of your transformation. So the discomfort is actually proof something important is happening.

• Speaker #1

  That's exactly her point. It's a good sign. That blur, that discomfort creates an open space, a zone of passage where real learning, real pedagogy gets built. Think about it. If you felt totally comfortable right away, maybe you'd just be applying rules superficially without really getting it.

• Speaker #0

  Right, just mimicking. Yeah.

• Speaker #1

  But being a little uncomfortable, that makes you pay closer attention, refine your understanding, listen more deeply, search for better ways. And that, she argues, leads to a pedagogy, or a way of communicating that's more anchored, more vibrant, more respectful. more authentic.

• Speaker #0

  That's a powerful way to look at discomfort, not as something to avoid, but as fuel for deeper learning.

• Speaker #1

  Precisely. It's where the real growth happens.

• Speaker #0

  So bringing this all together, what's Caroline's final core message for people starting out on this kind of journey? Teaching, learning, stepping into a new complex role.

• Speaker #1

  I think her main message boils down to this. You don't need to be perfect. You need to be committed.

• Speaker #0

  Commitment over perfection. Yes.

• Speaker #1

  And crucially, that Doubt doesn't take anything away from you. It gives you a chance to build something solid. The aim shouldn't be to impress everyone right away. The aim should be to truly understand and then to guide from that place of understanding. For Pilates, she says it's not just about knowing the exercises. It's about learning to guide with consciousness, correct with benevolence, transmit with precision.

• Speaker #0

  Consciousness, benevolence, precision. That takes time.

• Speaker #1

  It takes a lot of time. Your voice, your gaze. how you offer corrections, all that develops through committed practice and reflection. She calls Pilates an art of time, meaning you have to go through the stages. You can't just skip ahead.

• Speaker #0

  The pedagogy of conscious movement, embodying what you teach.

• Speaker #1

  Exactly. You learn it by doing it, experimenting, observing yourself and others, constantly adjusting.

• Speaker #0

  And for those listeners feeling like, OK, but I'm just not getting there fast enough. Yeah. Still stuck in that blurb.

• Speaker #1

  She offers real encouragement there. She basically says. One day you'll look back on this initial period, on this first day, with real tenderness. You'll recognize how important it was. She says, all that you feel today was already part of your legitimacy. So if you feel a little lost, a little overwhelmed right now, it actually means you are already changing. You're already in the process. You're on the path.

• Speaker #0

  Wow. That's actually incredibly reassuring. So the struggle is the progress. What a fantastic deep dive. It really reframes that initial discomfort and uncertainty.

• Speaker #1

  It really does. These aren't roadblocks. They're more like essential signposts showing you're actually moving towards real skill, real legitimacy. Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  Caroline Burkett of Feminist Perspective is so valuable. It tells us that expertise isn't about never doubting.

• Speaker #1

  Not at all. It's forged in the doubt through the process of working with it. And that's a lesson that goes way beyond Pilates instructors, right? It applies to anyone facing a new challenge that needs both head knowledge and practical wisdom.

• Speaker #0

  Absolutely. Learning new software, taking on management, even, I don't know, learning to cook something complex.

• Speaker #1

  Exactly.

• Speaker #0

  So for you listening, maybe you're learning a new language, starting a new job, trying to explain something tricky to your kids. How might embracing that initial blur, that discomfort, actually help you build real competence?

• Speaker #1

  Instead of fighting it, maybe see it as that open space Caroline talked about, the space where the transformation happens.

• Speaker #0

  Right. Don't fear the blur. See it as the sign that you're genuinely engaging and growing. Keep exploring, keep asking questions, and, well, embrace that sometimes messy, but ultimately beautiful, journey of becoming.