🇬🇧 Stott Pilates Instruction: The Lifelong Practice of Movement - Forbes Jim Heidenreich, CEO of Merrithew® | 🧘‍♀️ Biopilates Deep Dive

Description

Are you ready to elevate your Pilates practice and teaching to new heights? Join us in this enlightening episode of 🧘‍♀️ Biopilates Deep Dive, where we explore the profound impact of lifelong learning in the ever-evolving fitness landscape, specifically within the realm of Pilates. Caroline Berger de Fémynie, the esteemed CEO of Studio BioPilates Paris, passionately critiques the prevalent quick certification models that flood the industry with digital badges for minimal effort. She asserts that true competence in Pilates demands a commitment to mentorship, ongoing study, and an insatiable curiosity that fuels personal and professional growth.

Throughout our conversation, Caroline introduces the transformative concept of 'double loop learning'. This innovative approach encourages instructors to not only apply standard rules but also to critically question the effectiveness of their methods, tailoring their teaching to meet the unique needs of each client. This level of introspection fosters a deeper understanding of human movement and enhances the overall quality of instruction.

But how do we create an environment that supports this kind of growth? Caroline emphasizes the necessity of a nurturing community that balances psychological safety with high standards. Such a community cultivates an atmosphere where instructors can thrive, embracing vulnerability while striving for excellence. It's here that intrinsic motivation takes precedence over extrinsic rewards, reminding us that the journey of learning is far more valuable than any badge or title.

Moreover, we delve into the role of technology in the Pilates world. Caroline elucidates how technology should serve as an amplifier of human connection rather than a replacement. The essence of teaching lies in the relationships we build, and technology can enhance these connections when used thoughtfully.

Ultimately, this episode serves as a powerful reminder for all Pilates instructors: embrace your role as a lifelong student, nurture a joyous curiosity about the complexities of human movement, and commit to a path of continuous learning. Join us for an inspiring discussion that will not only challenge your perspective on Pilates but also empower you to become a more effective and compassionate instructor.

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Transcription

Speaker #0
Instructor education isn't about a weekend workshop or a digital badge. It's a lifelong practice built on mentorship, study, and an ongoing curiosity about how the body moves.
Speaker #1
Wow. That is a pretty heavy way to start things off. It sort of draws a line in the sand immediately, doesn't it?
Speaker #0
It really does. That's a quote from Jim Heidenreich, who's the CEO of Stop Pilates. And, you know, when I first read it, I thought, OK, sure, lifelong learning sounds very noble.
Speaker #1
Right.
Speaker #0
But today we're diving into a source that takes... that quote and, well, it almost weaponizes it against the whole fast food culture of professional certification.
Speaker #1
Weaponizes is a strong word, but I don't think it's wrong. We're looking at an interview with Caroline Berger de Femini. She's the CEO of Studio BioPilates Paris. And she uses Heidenreich's words to just strip away what she calls the varnish of the fitness industry.
Speaker #0
The varnish. So that shiny, happy idea that you can just, you know, take a 20 hour course, get a certificate and poof, you're a master of human movement.
Speaker #1
Exactly. She's really dissecting the difference between just collecting certificates and actually possessing competence. And I think what's so interesting is, yeah, the context is Pilates, but the principles she lays out, especially this idea of double loop learning, it's really a masterclass for anyone who wants to be good at anything for more than like five minutes.
Speaker #0
OK, so let's get into it. Caroline's reaction to that quote, it's not just agreement. She immediately points to the dark side of the alternative, the whole weekend workshop. mentality. Now, just to play devil's advocate for a second, isn't accessible education a good thing? Why is she so hard on that quick certification model?
Speaker #1
It's not really about accessibility for her. It's about what she calls ethical thickness. She basically argues that when an industry sells you a digital badge for minimal effort, they're selling an illusion.
Speaker #0
The illusion of safety.
Speaker #1
An illusion of safety. You feel like an instructor. You've got the title. But you haven't done the internal work to actually handle the incredible complexity of a human body.
Speaker #0
So it's the difference between a status and a posture.
Speaker #1
That's a great way to put it. A status is, I'm done. I've arrived. A posture is, I am constantly positioning myself to learn. And she breaks this down into this kind of ecosystem. She says, you need three things to survive professionally. Mentorship, study, and curiosity.
Speaker #0
The three pillars.
Speaker #1
Yep. And here's the kicker. She says if you take even one of them away, the entire structure just collapses.
Speaker #0
Okay, okay, but let's stress test that. Let's say I'm a huge nerd. I study constantly. I'm reading every anatomy book, watching every lecture.
Speaker #1
Right.
Speaker #0
But I just don't have a mentor. Do I really collapse?
Speaker #1
According to her, yes. Yeah. You do, because without mentorship, all that study is just dry. It's theoretical. You might know the map, but you've never actually walked the territory. A mentor is the person who forces you to apply that book knowledge to a living, breathing, totally unpredictable human.
Speaker #0
All right, so let's flip it. What if I have an amazing mentor? I follow them everywhere. I do everything they do, but I hate studying. I just learn by watching.
Speaker #1
Then you're just a mimic. You become a little photocopy of your master. You might look great doing the moves, but you don't understand the why behind them. You're just repeating a recipe without understanding any of the chemistry.
Speaker #0
And that third one, curiosity. I have to admit, that feels like the vague, you know, soft skill of a bunch.
Speaker #1
It's actually the most dangerous one to lose. Caroline warns that without curiosity, you become a prisoner of your own habits. This is the instructor who's been teaching for 20 years, but in reality, they've just taught one year of experience 20 times over.
Speaker #2
Ouch. That hits home.
Speaker #1
It's the silent danger. Your classes might be full, people might love you, but pedagogically, you are dead. You've stopped seeing the bodies in front of you. You're just seeing your own patterns projected onto them.
Speaker #0
She uses this metaphor that I thought was just brilliant, especially for this world. She compares a rigid instructor to a rigid spine.
Speaker #1
It's perfect, isn't it? In Pilates, we know rigid spine is a huge liability. If one part doesn't move, that force has to go somewhere else, and it usually causes a break or an injury just down the line.
Speaker #0
And she applies that directly to a career.
Speaker #1
She does. She talks about the living context. Bodies change, science changes, the market changes. If you are rigid, if your answer is always... well, this is how I learned it in 2010, you're brittle. You are going to break. Or even worse, you'll break your students because you're forcing a standard correction onto a unique problem.
Speaker #0
Which brings us to the core mechanic of how you avoid that rigidity. This was the part of the research I went back to, I think, three different times, double loop learning.
Speaker #1
Ah, yes. This is the heavy hitter.
Speaker #0
I feel like most of us, myself included, operate in single loop most of the time. Can you just break down the difference? Like, what does single loop look like in the wild?
Speaker #1
Okay, let's use a studio scenario. An instructor sees a client. We'll call him Dave. And Dave's pelvis is just wobbling all over the place during a leg lift.
Speaker #0
Classic Dave.
Speaker #1
Classic Dave. So the instructor. Operating in single loop mode. The goal is stable pelvis. The reality is wobbly pelvis. So the instructor applies the standard rule. Dave, stabilize your pelvis.
Speaker #0
Seems reasonable enough.
Speaker #1
Sure. Dave tries. He wobbles again. The instructor, still stuck in that single loop, thinks, okay, the strategy is right. The execution is the problem. So they do it again, but with more intensity. Dave, engage your core. Squeeze your glutes. Stabilize. They're just shouting loud.
Speaker #0
Well, I do this with my kids all the time. Put your shoes on. They don't do it. Put your shoes on. I'm not changing the strategy. I'm just adding force.
Speaker #1
That is the perfect definition of single loop. You're trying to fix the error without ever questioning the system that produced the error in the first place. You just assume the rule is right.
Speaker #0
So what does the double loop instructor do?
Speaker #1
The double loop instructor hits that same wall. Dave is still wobbling. And they stop. They actually loop back to question the variables themselves. They ask, why is my instruction failing?
Speaker #0
So they blame themselves.
Speaker #1
It's not about blame. It's investigation. They look at the conditions. Is Dave afraid of the movement? Is he holding his breath, which is creating pressure that destabilizes him? Does he have a hip mobility issue that makes it physically impossible to stabilize in this position?
Speaker #0
So they're not just looking at the result. They're examining the whole system.
Speaker #1
Precisely. And then, and this is the key, they change the system. They might say, OK, Dave, let's try bending the knee. Or let's change your breathing pattern here. They rewrite the rule for that specific moment.
Speaker #0
Why is this so hard for us to do? Intellectually, it makes perfect sense. But in the moment, it feels, I don't know, risky.
Speaker #1
It feels risky because it requires you to drop your ego. Caroline is crystal clear on this. Double loop learning demands vulnerability. Standing in front of a class, the single loop is safe. It lets you say, I am the expert. I gave the right cue. You fail to execute it.
Speaker #0
It protects the teacher's status.
Speaker #1
Correct. Double loop forces you to stand there and basically admit, I don't know why this isn't working yet. Let's figure it out. You have to embrace a moment of non-knowledge. And if your whole identity is built on that digital badge, that moment of not knowing feels like professional death.
Speaker #0
So that's the paradox. To be a real master, you have to be willing to look like a beginner who is still figuring things out.
Speaker #1
Which is exactly why true mastery is so rare. Most people would rather be right and ineffective. then curious and effective.
Speaker #0
This connects so perfectly to the idea of longevity. I mean, the source mentions instructors who have been at this for 35 years. In the fitness industry, where everything is about the new, new thing, that's ancient. How do they survive that long without becoming dinosaurs?
Speaker #1
Caroline uses the term flexible stability. Sounds like a complete paradox,
Speaker #0
right? It sounds a little like corporate jargon, to be honest.
Speaker #1
It does, but she grounds it so beautifully. She calls it a double fidelity. You have to be faithful to the technical base, the rigor, the history, the actual rules of the method. You can't just make things up.
Speaker #0
Okay.
Speaker #1
But you also have to be faithful to the evolution of the world, to science, to new research.
Speaker #0
So you're constantly straddling the past and the future.
Speaker #1
And the tool for doing that is what she calls the grammar versus recipe distinction. This was one of my favorite analogies in the whole piece.
Speaker #0
Okay, walk us through that.
Speaker #1
Think about learning a language. If you just buy a phrasebook, you're learning recipes. Where is the bathroom? I would like a coffee. You can say those phrases perfectly. But the second someone answers you with a sentence you haven't memorized, you're completely lost.
Speaker #0
You're stuck. You're done.
Speaker #1
But if you learn the grammar, the structure, the syntax, the principles, you can build sentences you've never even heard before.
Speaker #0
So in movement, the recipe is just the choreography. Do the hundred, then you do the roll-up.
Speaker #1
Exactly. And if a client comes in with, say, a fused spine and they can't do the roll-up, the recipe cook panics. But the grammar instructor, they know the principles, articulation, breath, center. So they can invent a modification right on the spot, a whole new sentence that serves the client perfectly, even if it's not in the official manual.
Speaker #0
So the instructors who last 35 years are the ones who speak the language fluently enough to write poetry, not just recite lines.
Speaker #1
That's a really beautiful way to put it. And that ability to write poetry is what keeps them motivated. She makes a great distinction between extrinsic and intrinsic motivation.
Speaker #0
Extrinsic is all the external stuff. Money, the Instagram likes, the applause.
Speaker #1
Which is so fragile. If you're teaching for applause, you're totally at the mercy of the audience. And eventually the audience gets bored. They move on to the next trend. Intrinsic motivation comes from the quality of the gesture. It's the fascination with the work itself.
Speaker #0
It almost sounds meditative.
Speaker #1
It is. She says the durable instructor is fueled by seeing the student's progression, not by hearing the student's praise.
Speaker #0
Speaking of the student, let's talk about that relationship. As these instructors get older, they often become mentors. And Caroline uses a specific French term here, passeur.
Speaker #1
Yes, a passeur. It's such a great way to redefine leadership. You see so many master trainers who operate like gurus. You know, I possess the knowledge, come and worship at my feet.
Speaker #0
Right.
Speaker #1
A passeur sees themselves as more of a conduit. They're just transmitting something that's bigger than them. The method, the history, the health of the body.
Speaker #0
Which implies a lack of ownership. You don't own the knowledge. You're just... It's caretaker for a while.
Speaker #1
And because you don't own it, you don't have to defend it so aggressively. She talks about the teacher's frame. It has to be strong enough to protect the student, but it has to stay permeable.
Speaker #0
Permeable?
Speaker #1
To what? To questions. To challenge. If a student asks why, a guru says, because I said so. A pursuer says, that's a great question. Let's look at the mechanism together.
Speaker #0
But creating that kind of environment where questions are welcome and mistakes are just data, that doesn't just happen. You have to build it. Carolyn talks about creating a community of practice, but she warns against the, you know, the kumbaya version of community.
Speaker #1
Right. It's not just about everyone liking each other. She argues you need two opposing forces, psychological safety and high standards, or as she calls it, exigence.
Speaker #0
And usually those are seen as opposites. You know, if you have high standards, people get stressed. If you have safety, people slack off.
Speaker #1
That's the big misconception. If you have safety without standards, you just get comfort. Good job you tried. But nobody actually gets better. It's just stagnation.
Speaker #0
And if you have standards without safety.
Speaker #1
That's just anxiety. If I am terrified that you'll judge me for making a mistake, I'm just going to hide my mistakes. And if I hide them, I can't fix them. So this community of practice has to be a place where it is safe to mess up, but it's mandatory to learn from it.
Speaker #0
She gives a very specific. protocol for how to give feedback in that environment, which I loved. It stops feedback from just feeling like, you know, some person's opinion.
Speaker #1
The observe, describe, interpret, propose model. Yeah, it's brilliant.
Speaker #0
Let's break that down because I think anyone listening could use this no matter what their job is.
Speaker #1
Okay. So step one, observe, just see what happened. Step two, describe. This is where most people fail. They skip description and they go straight to judgment.
Speaker #0
So instead of saying, that was sloppy, you'd say...
Speaker #1
You'd say, I saw that your left knee collapsed inward when you landed. That is a neutral fact. There's no emotion in it.
Speaker #0
Okay, then step three, interpret.
Speaker #1
This is the diagnosis. The knee collapsing could suggest the glute medius wasn't firing, or maybe the foot placement was a little too wide. And she notes, you have to do this with prudence. It's just a hypothesis, not a final judgment.
Speaker #0
And finally...
Speaker #1
Propose.
Speaker #0
Let's... try moving your foot in two inches and really focusing on that outer hip. See, because you did the first three steps, the proposal feels objective. It's not a criticism of the person. It's a solution to the problem you both observe.
Speaker #1
It takes a personal sting right out of it. It makes the problem something we're looking at together instead of a flaw that's inside of me.
Speaker #0
Exactly. It just turns feedback into useful data.
Speaker #1
Okay. I want to shift gears to the elephant in the room. We've talked about these high ideals, years of study, double loop learning. All of that takes time. And time, as we know, is money.
Speaker #0
The taboo subject.
Speaker #1
And Caroline doesn't shy away from it. She actually links money directly to ethics, which I found totally fascinating. Usually we think of money as corrupting ethics. She kind of suggests that poverty corrupts ethics. It's a provocative stance, but it's so practical. She argues that trust is a capital. To build that deep trust with a client, you need stability. If an instructor is just rushing from gig to gig, underpaid, stressed about rent, In total survival mode, they cannot afford the luxury of double loop learning.
Speaker #0
They just don't have the mental bandwidth to be curious.
Speaker #1
None. They revert to what's easy. They start selling fitness candy. You know, the trendy stuff that sells fast but has zero nutritional value. Or worse, they hang on to a client who's injured because they need the paycheck instead of referring them out to a specialist.
Speaker #0
So she's saying you actually need the material conditions, a decent wage, stability, to afford the ethical thickness of a true professional.
Speaker #1
She says. The problem isn't earning a living. The problem is earning a living by betraying the reality of the body. And if you're financially desperate, that temptation to betray the body for a buck just becomes overwhelming.
Speaker #0
This brings us to the other big economic force here, technology. We've got apps, AI coaches, Zoom classes. It's cheaper. It's faster. Does she see this as the enemy?
Speaker #1
She's more nuanced than that. She sees tech as an amplifier. It can amplify your reach. It can help with memory. But she is absolutely adamant that it cannot feel.
Speaker #0
It lacks the gaze, the human gaze.
Speaker #1
It goes right back to the double loop. An app can't see that you're holding tension in your jaw because you had a fight with your spouse. And that that tension is wrecking your neck alignment. A mentor sees that.
Speaker #0
An app can correct the what, but it can't understand the why.
Speaker #1
Correct. Technology is totally blind to the internal state. Caroline says the mentor sees what the student cannot see in themselves. And that just requires presence. You can't code that.
Speaker #0
So as we wrap up this deep dive, we're kind of left with what she calls a code of durability. If we had to distill this whole interview into a set of rules for our inner life, whether we teach Pilates or we code software, what would they be?
Speaker #1
I think there are four really clear rules here. First, never stop being a student. And that means actually being a beginner at something. Go do something you really suck at. It keeps you humble.
Speaker #0
It reminds you what it feels like to not have the answer. Second, seek feedback, not compliments. Compliments feel great, but they just lull you to sleep. Feedback's the only thing that actually wakes you up.
Speaker #1
Third.
Speaker #0
Don't isolate yourself. Isolation is just a petri dish for bad habits and single-loop thinking. You need that community of practice to call you on your stuff.
Speaker #1
And the last one.
Speaker #0
Keep joyous curiosity. And I love that she uses the word joyous. It's not supposed to be the anxiety of I need to know everything to prove I'm smart. It should be the joy of, wow, the human body is an infinite mystery and I actually get to explore it.
Speaker #1
Which brings us all the way back to her final truth. The body never lies.
Speaker #0
It's the ultimate reality check, isn't it? You can fake a resume, you can fake a digital badge, you can use all the fancy jargon on Instagram. But the body, the nervous system, the fascia, the spine, it only responds to truth. If your method is flawed, the body will show it, eventually. So to you listening, we've spent a lot of time on Pilates today, but the challenge here is completely universal. Where in your own life are you relying on a badge? Where are you just shouting instructions louder, single loop style, instead of stopping to ask? Why isn't this working?
Speaker #1
Where are you seeking comfort instead of competence?
Speaker #0
That's the question. True competence is what remains when the standard answers fail. Thanks for diving deep with us. Keep moving and keep asking the hard questions.
Speaker #2
See you next time.

About 🧘‍♀️ Biopilates Deep Dive

Studio Biopilates Paris is France's only STOTT PILATES course hosting center, offering sixteen years of expertise in this world-renowned Pilates method. STOTT PILATES is described as a modern approach based on biomechanics and rehabilitation while respecting Joseph Pilates's original principles. Caroline Berger de Fémynie, founder of the studio Biopilates Paris, has been the only instructor authorized in France since 2008 to train other STOTT PILATES instructors. The success of this method is based on its scientific approach, versatility, international recognition, and respect for the Pilates heritage.

Le Studio Biopilates Paris est le seul centre de formation STOTT PILATES en France, offrant une expertise de seize ans dans cette méthode de Pilates mondialement reconnue. STOTT PILATES est décrite comme une approche moderne, basée sur la biomécanique et la rééducation, tout en respectant les principes originaux de Joseph Pilates. Caroline Berger de Fémynie, fondatrice de Fémynie, est l'unique instructrice habilitée en France depuis 2008 à former d'autres instructeurs STOTT PILATES. Le succès de cette méthode repose sur son approche scientifique, sa polyvalence, sa reconnaissance internationale et son respect de l'héritage du Pilates.

English : Steeve Pitt and Anabela Wilson Media Manager Global Hosting Stott Pilates @ Studio Biopilates Paris

French : Sébastien Flaurent et Claire Brunel Media Manager Global Hosting Stott Pilates @ Studio Biopilates Paris

Italien : Margaux Cangini - Instructor Stott Pilates

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

About 🧘‍♀️ Biopilates Deep Dive

English : Steeve Pitt and Anabela Wilson Media Manager Global Hosting Stott Pilates @ Studio Biopilates Paris

French : Sébastien Flaurent et Claire Brunel Media Manager Global Hosting Stott Pilates @ Studio Biopilates Paris

Italien : Margaux Cangini - Instructor Stott Pilates

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Description

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Transcription

Speaker #0
Instructor education isn't about a weekend workshop or a digital badge. It's a lifelong practice built on mentorship, study, and an ongoing curiosity about how the body moves.
Speaker #1
Wow. That is a pretty heavy way to start things off. It sort of draws a line in the sand immediately, doesn't it?
Speaker #0
It really does. That's a quote from Jim Heidenreich, who's the CEO of Stop Pilates. And, you know, when I first read it, I thought, OK, sure, lifelong learning sounds very noble.
Speaker #1
Right.
Speaker #0
But today we're diving into a source that takes... that quote and, well, it almost weaponizes it against the whole fast food culture of professional certification.
Speaker #1
Weaponizes is a strong word, but I don't think it's wrong. We're looking at an interview with Caroline Berger de Femini. She's the CEO of Studio BioPilates Paris. And she uses Heidenreich's words to just strip away what she calls the varnish of the fitness industry.
Speaker #0
The varnish. So that shiny, happy idea that you can just, you know, take a 20 hour course, get a certificate and poof, you're a master of human movement.
Speaker #1
Exactly. She's really dissecting the difference between just collecting certificates and actually possessing competence. And I think what's so interesting is, yeah, the context is Pilates, but the principles she lays out, especially this idea of double loop learning, it's really a masterclass for anyone who wants to be good at anything for more than like five minutes.
Speaker #0
OK, so let's get into it. Caroline's reaction to that quote, it's not just agreement. She immediately points to the dark side of the alternative, the whole weekend workshop. mentality. Now, just to play devil's advocate for a second, isn't accessible education a good thing? Why is she so hard on that quick certification model?
Speaker #1
It's not really about accessibility for her. It's about what she calls ethical thickness. She basically argues that when an industry sells you a digital badge for minimal effort, they're selling an illusion.
Speaker #0
The illusion of safety.
Speaker #1
An illusion of safety. You feel like an instructor. You've got the title. But you haven't done the internal work to actually handle the incredible complexity of a human body.
Speaker #0
So it's the difference between a status and a posture.
Speaker #1
That's a great way to put it. A status is, I'm done. I've arrived. A posture is, I am constantly positioning myself to learn. And she breaks this down into this kind of ecosystem. She says, you need three things to survive professionally. Mentorship, study, and curiosity.
Speaker #0
The three pillars.
Speaker #1
Yep. And here's the kicker. She says if you take even one of them away, the entire structure just collapses.
Speaker #0
Okay, okay, but let's stress test that. Let's say I'm a huge nerd. I study constantly. I'm reading every anatomy book, watching every lecture.
Speaker #1
Right.
Speaker #0
But I just don't have a mentor. Do I really collapse?
Speaker #1
According to her, yes. Yeah. You do, because without mentorship, all that study is just dry. It's theoretical. You might know the map, but you've never actually walked the territory. A mentor is the person who forces you to apply that book knowledge to a living, breathing, totally unpredictable human.
Speaker #0
All right, so let's flip it. What if I have an amazing mentor? I follow them everywhere. I do everything they do, but I hate studying. I just learn by watching.
Speaker #1
Then you're just a mimic. You become a little photocopy of your master. You might look great doing the moves, but you don't understand the why behind them. You're just repeating a recipe without understanding any of the chemistry.
Speaker #0
And that third one, curiosity. I have to admit, that feels like the vague, you know, soft skill of a bunch.
Speaker #1
It's actually the most dangerous one to lose. Caroline warns that without curiosity, you become a prisoner of your own habits. This is the instructor who's been teaching for 20 years, but in reality, they've just taught one year of experience 20 times over.
Speaker #2
Ouch. That hits home.
Speaker #1
It's the silent danger. Your classes might be full, people might love you, but pedagogically, you are dead. You've stopped seeing the bodies in front of you. You're just seeing your own patterns projected onto them.
Speaker #0
She uses this metaphor that I thought was just brilliant, especially for this world. She compares a rigid instructor to a rigid spine.
Speaker #1
It's perfect, isn't it? In Pilates, we know rigid spine is a huge liability. If one part doesn't move, that force has to go somewhere else, and it usually causes a break or an injury just down the line.
Speaker #0
And she applies that directly to a career.
Speaker #1
She does. She talks about the living context. Bodies change, science changes, the market changes. If you are rigid, if your answer is always... well, this is how I learned it in 2010, you're brittle. You are going to break. Or even worse, you'll break your students because you're forcing a standard correction onto a unique problem.
Speaker #0
Which brings us to the core mechanic of how you avoid that rigidity. This was the part of the research I went back to, I think, three different times, double loop learning.
Speaker #1
Ah, yes. This is the heavy hitter.
Speaker #0
I feel like most of us, myself included, operate in single loop most of the time. Can you just break down the difference? Like, what does single loop look like in the wild?
Speaker #1
Okay, let's use a studio scenario. An instructor sees a client. We'll call him Dave. And Dave's pelvis is just wobbling all over the place during a leg lift.
Speaker #0
Classic Dave.
Speaker #1
Classic Dave. So the instructor. Operating in single loop mode. The goal is stable pelvis. The reality is wobbly pelvis. So the instructor applies the standard rule. Dave, stabilize your pelvis.
Speaker #0
Seems reasonable enough.
Speaker #1
Sure. Dave tries. He wobbles again. The instructor, still stuck in that single loop, thinks, okay, the strategy is right. The execution is the problem. So they do it again, but with more intensity. Dave, engage your core. Squeeze your glutes. Stabilize. They're just shouting loud.
Speaker #0
Well, I do this with my kids all the time. Put your shoes on. They don't do it. Put your shoes on. I'm not changing the strategy. I'm just adding force.
Speaker #1
That is the perfect definition of single loop. You're trying to fix the error without ever questioning the system that produced the error in the first place. You just assume the rule is right.
Speaker #0
So what does the double loop instructor do?
Speaker #1
The double loop instructor hits that same wall. Dave is still wobbling. And they stop. They actually loop back to question the variables themselves. They ask, why is my instruction failing?
Speaker #0
So they blame themselves.
Speaker #1
It's not about blame. It's investigation. They look at the conditions. Is Dave afraid of the movement? Is he holding his breath, which is creating pressure that destabilizes him? Does he have a hip mobility issue that makes it physically impossible to stabilize in this position?
Speaker #0
So they're not just looking at the result. They're examining the whole system.
Speaker #1
Precisely. And then, and this is the key, they change the system. They might say, OK, Dave, let's try bending the knee. Or let's change your breathing pattern here. They rewrite the rule for that specific moment.
Speaker #0
Why is this so hard for us to do? Intellectually, it makes perfect sense. But in the moment, it feels, I don't know, risky.
Speaker #1
It feels risky because it requires you to drop your ego. Caroline is crystal clear on this. Double loop learning demands vulnerability. Standing in front of a class, the single loop is safe. It lets you say, I am the expert. I gave the right cue. You fail to execute it.
Speaker #0
It protects the teacher's status.
Speaker #1
Correct. Double loop forces you to stand there and basically admit, I don't know why this isn't working yet. Let's figure it out. You have to embrace a moment of non-knowledge. And if your whole identity is built on that digital badge, that moment of not knowing feels like professional death.
Speaker #0
So that's the paradox. To be a real master, you have to be willing to look like a beginner who is still figuring things out.
Speaker #1
Which is exactly why true mastery is so rare. Most people would rather be right and ineffective. then curious and effective.
Speaker #0
This connects so perfectly to the idea of longevity. I mean, the source mentions instructors who have been at this for 35 years. In the fitness industry, where everything is about the new, new thing, that's ancient. How do they survive that long without becoming dinosaurs?
Speaker #1
Caroline uses the term flexible stability. Sounds like a complete paradox,
Speaker #0
right? It sounds a little like corporate jargon, to be honest.
Speaker #1
It does, but she grounds it so beautifully. She calls it a double fidelity. You have to be faithful to the technical base, the rigor, the history, the actual rules of the method. You can't just make things up.
Speaker #0
Okay.
Speaker #1
But you also have to be faithful to the evolution of the world, to science, to new research.
Speaker #0
So you're constantly straddling the past and the future.
Speaker #1
And the tool for doing that is what she calls the grammar versus recipe distinction. This was one of my favorite analogies in the whole piece.
Speaker #0
Okay, walk us through that.
Speaker #1
Think about learning a language. If you just buy a phrasebook, you're learning recipes. Where is the bathroom? I would like a coffee. You can say those phrases perfectly. But the second someone answers you with a sentence you haven't memorized, you're completely lost.
Speaker #0
You're stuck. You're done.
Speaker #1
But if you learn the grammar, the structure, the syntax, the principles, you can build sentences you've never even heard before.
Speaker #0
So in movement, the recipe is just the choreography. Do the hundred, then you do the roll-up.
Speaker #1
Exactly. And if a client comes in with, say, a fused spine and they can't do the roll-up, the recipe cook panics. But the grammar instructor, they know the principles, articulation, breath, center. So they can invent a modification right on the spot, a whole new sentence that serves the client perfectly, even if it's not in the official manual.
Speaker #0
So the instructors who last 35 years are the ones who speak the language fluently enough to write poetry, not just recite lines.
Speaker #1
That's a really beautiful way to put it. And that ability to write poetry is what keeps them motivated. She makes a great distinction between extrinsic and intrinsic motivation.
Speaker #0
Extrinsic is all the external stuff. Money, the Instagram likes, the applause.
Speaker #1
Which is so fragile. If you're teaching for applause, you're totally at the mercy of the audience. And eventually the audience gets bored. They move on to the next trend. Intrinsic motivation comes from the quality of the gesture. It's the fascination with the work itself.
Speaker #0
It almost sounds meditative.
Speaker #1
It is. She says the durable instructor is fueled by seeing the student's progression, not by hearing the student's praise.
Speaker #0
Speaking of the student, let's talk about that relationship. As these instructors get older, they often become mentors. And Caroline uses a specific French term here, passeur.
Speaker #1
Yes, a passeur. It's such a great way to redefine leadership. You see so many master trainers who operate like gurus. You know, I possess the knowledge, come and worship at my feet.
Speaker #0
Right.
Speaker #1
A passeur sees themselves as more of a conduit. They're just transmitting something that's bigger than them. The method, the history, the health of the body.
Speaker #0
Which implies a lack of ownership. You don't own the knowledge. You're just... It's caretaker for a while.
Speaker #1
And because you don't own it, you don't have to defend it so aggressively. She talks about the teacher's frame. It has to be strong enough to protect the student, but it has to stay permeable.
Speaker #0
Permeable?
Speaker #1
To what? To questions. To challenge. If a student asks why, a guru says, because I said so. A pursuer says, that's a great question. Let's look at the mechanism together.
Speaker #0
But creating that kind of environment where questions are welcome and mistakes are just data, that doesn't just happen. You have to build it. Carolyn talks about creating a community of practice, but she warns against the, you know, the kumbaya version of community.
Speaker #1
Right. It's not just about everyone liking each other. She argues you need two opposing forces, psychological safety and high standards, or as she calls it, exigence.
Speaker #0
And usually those are seen as opposites. You know, if you have high standards, people get stressed. If you have safety, people slack off.
Speaker #1
That's the big misconception. If you have safety without standards, you just get comfort. Good job you tried. But nobody actually gets better. It's just stagnation.
Speaker #0
And if you have standards without safety.
Speaker #1
That's just anxiety. If I am terrified that you'll judge me for making a mistake, I'm just going to hide my mistakes. And if I hide them, I can't fix them. So this community of practice has to be a place where it is safe to mess up, but it's mandatory to learn from it.
Speaker #0
She gives a very specific. protocol for how to give feedback in that environment, which I loved. It stops feedback from just feeling like, you know, some person's opinion.
Speaker #1
The observe, describe, interpret, propose model. Yeah, it's brilliant.
Speaker #0
Let's break that down because I think anyone listening could use this no matter what their job is.
Speaker #1
Okay. So step one, observe, just see what happened. Step two, describe. This is where most people fail. They skip description and they go straight to judgment.
Speaker #0
So instead of saying, that was sloppy, you'd say...
Speaker #1
You'd say, I saw that your left knee collapsed inward when you landed. That is a neutral fact. There's no emotion in it.
Speaker #0
Okay, then step three, interpret.
Speaker #1
This is the diagnosis. The knee collapsing could suggest the glute medius wasn't firing, or maybe the foot placement was a little too wide. And she notes, you have to do this with prudence. It's just a hypothesis, not a final judgment.
Speaker #0
And finally...
Speaker #1
Propose.
Speaker #0
Let's... try moving your foot in two inches and really focusing on that outer hip. See, because you did the first three steps, the proposal feels objective. It's not a criticism of the person. It's a solution to the problem you both observe.
Speaker #1
It takes a personal sting right out of it. It makes the problem something we're looking at together instead of a flaw that's inside of me.
Speaker #0
Exactly. It just turns feedback into useful data.
Speaker #1
Okay. I want to shift gears to the elephant in the room. We've talked about these high ideals, years of study, double loop learning. All of that takes time. And time, as we know, is money.
Speaker #0
The taboo subject.
Speaker #1
And Caroline doesn't shy away from it. She actually links money directly to ethics, which I found totally fascinating. Usually we think of money as corrupting ethics. She kind of suggests that poverty corrupts ethics. It's a provocative stance, but it's so practical. She argues that trust is a capital. To build that deep trust with a client, you need stability. If an instructor is just rushing from gig to gig, underpaid, stressed about rent, In total survival mode, they cannot afford the luxury of double loop learning.
Speaker #0
They just don't have the mental bandwidth to be curious.
Speaker #1
None. They revert to what's easy. They start selling fitness candy. You know, the trendy stuff that sells fast but has zero nutritional value. Or worse, they hang on to a client who's injured because they need the paycheck instead of referring them out to a specialist.
Speaker #0
So she's saying you actually need the material conditions, a decent wage, stability, to afford the ethical thickness of a true professional.
Speaker #1
She says. The problem isn't earning a living. The problem is earning a living by betraying the reality of the body. And if you're financially desperate, that temptation to betray the body for a buck just becomes overwhelming.
Speaker #0
This brings us to the other big economic force here, technology. We've got apps, AI coaches, Zoom classes. It's cheaper. It's faster. Does she see this as the enemy?
Speaker #1
She's more nuanced than that. She sees tech as an amplifier. It can amplify your reach. It can help with memory. But she is absolutely adamant that it cannot feel.
Speaker #0
It lacks the gaze, the human gaze.
Speaker #1
It goes right back to the double loop. An app can't see that you're holding tension in your jaw because you had a fight with your spouse. And that that tension is wrecking your neck alignment. A mentor sees that.
Speaker #0
An app can correct the what, but it can't understand the why.
Speaker #1
Correct. Technology is totally blind to the internal state. Caroline says the mentor sees what the student cannot see in themselves. And that just requires presence. You can't code that.
Speaker #0
So as we wrap up this deep dive, we're kind of left with what she calls a code of durability. If we had to distill this whole interview into a set of rules for our inner life, whether we teach Pilates or we code software, what would they be?
Speaker #1
I think there are four really clear rules here. First, never stop being a student. And that means actually being a beginner at something. Go do something you really suck at. It keeps you humble.
Speaker #0
It reminds you what it feels like to not have the answer. Second, seek feedback, not compliments. Compliments feel great, but they just lull you to sleep. Feedback's the only thing that actually wakes you up.
Speaker #1
Third.
Speaker #0
Don't isolate yourself. Isolation is just a petri dish for bad habits and single-loop thinking. You need that community of practice to call you on your stuff.
Speaker #1
And the last one.
Speaker #0
Keep joyous curiosity. And I love that she uses the word joyous. It's not supposed to be the anxiety of I need to know everything to prove I'm smart. It should be the joy of, wow, the human body is an infinite mystery and I actually get to explore it.
Speaker #1
Which brings us all the way back to her final truth. The body never lies.
Speaker #0
It's the ultimate reality check, isn't it? You can fake a resume, you can fake a digital badge, you can use all the fancy jargon on Instagram. But the body, the nervous system, the fascia, the spine, it only responds to truth. If your method is flawed, the body will show it, eventually. So to you listening, we've spent a lot of time on Pilates today, but the challenge here is completely universal. Where in your own life are you relying on a badge? Where are you just shouting instructions louder, single loop style, instead of stopping to ask? Why isn't this working?
Speaker #1
Where are you seeking comfort instead of competence?
Speaker #0
That's the question. True competence is what remains when the standard answers fail. Thanks for diving deep with us. Keep moving and keep asking the hard questions.
Speaker #2
See you next time.

About 🧘‍♀️ Biopilates Deep Dive

English : Steeve Pitt and Anabela Wilson Media Manager Global Hosting Stott Pilates @ Studio Biopilates Paris

French : Sébastien Flaurent et Claire Brunel Media Manager Global Hosting Stott Pilates @ Studio Biopilates Paris

Italien : Margaux Cangini - Instructor Stott Pilates

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

About 🧘‍♀️ Biopilates Deep Dive

English : Steeve Pitt and Anabela Wilson Media Manager Global Hosting Stott Pilates @ Studio Biopilates Paris

French : Sébastien Flaurent et Claire Brunel Media Manager Global Hosting Stott Pilates @ Studio Biopilates Paris

Italien : Margaux Cangini - Instructor Stott Pilates

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Embed

You may also like

Description

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Transcription

Speaker #0
Instructor education isn't about a weekend workshop or a digital badge. It's a lifelong practice built on mentorship, study, and an ongoing curiosity about how the body moves.
Speaker #1
Wow. That is a pretty heavy way to start things off. It sort of draws a line in the sand immediately, doesn't it?
Speaker #0
It really does. That's a quote from Jim Heidenreich, who's the CEO of Stop Pilates. And, you know, when I first read it, I thought, OK, sure, lifelong learning sounds very noble.
Speaker #1
Right.
Speaker #0
But today we're diving into a source that takes... that quote and, well, it almost weaponizes it against the whole fast food culture of professional certification.
Speaker #1
Weaponizes is a strong word, but I don't think it's wrong. We're looking at an interview with Caroline Berger de Femini. She's the CEO of Studio BioPilates Paris. And she uses Heidenreich's words to just strip away what she calls the varnish of the fitness industry.
Speaker #0
The varnish. So that shiny, happy idea that you can just, you know, take a 20 hour course, get a certificate and poof, you're a master of human movement.
Speaker #1
Exactly. She's really dissecting the difference between just collecting certificates and actually possessing competence. And I think what's so interesting is, yeah, the context is Pilates, but the principles she lays out, especially this idea of double loop learning, it's really a masterclass for anyone who wants to be good at anything for more than like five minutes.
Speaker #0
OK, so let's get into it. Caroline's reaction to that quote, it's not just agreement. She immediately points to the dark side of the alternative, the whole weekend workshop. mentality. Now, just to play devil's advocate for a second, isn't accessible education a good thing? Why is she so hard on that quick certification model?
Speaker #1
It's not really about accessibility for her. It's about what she calls ethical thickness. She basically argues that when an industry sells you a digital badge for minimal effort, they're selling an illusion.
Speaker #0
The illusion of safety.
Speaker #1
An illusion of safety. You feel like an instructor. You've got the title. But you haven't done the internal work to actually handle the incredible complexity of a human body.
Speaker #0
So it's the difference between a status and a posture.
Speaker #1
That's a great way to put it. A status is, I'm done. I've arrived. A posture is, I am constantly positioning myself to learn. And she breaks this down into this kind of ecosystem. She says, you need three things to survive professionally. Mentorship, study, and curiosity.
Speaker #0
The three pillars.
Speaker #1
Yep. And here's the kicker. She says if you take even one of them away, the entire structure just collapses.
Speaker #0
Okay, okay, but let's stress test that. Let's say I'm a huge nerd. I study constantly. I'm reading every anatomy book, watching every lecture.
Speaker #1
Right.
Speaker #0
But I just don't have a mentor. Do I really collapse?
Speaker #1
According to her, yes. Yeah. You do, because without mentorship, all that study is just dry. It's theoretical. You might know the map, but you've never actually walked the territory. A mentor is the person who forces you to apply that book knowledge to a living, breathing, totally unpredictable human.
Speaker #0
All right, so let's flip it. What if I have an amazing mentor? I follow them everywhere. I do everything they do, but I hate studying. I just learn by watching.
Speaker #1
Then you're just a mimic. You become a little photocopy of your master. You might look great doing the moves, but you don't understand the why behind them. You're just repeating a recipe without understanding any of the chemistry.
Speaker #0
And that third one, curiosity. I have to admit, that feels like the vague, you know, soft skill of a bunch.
Speaker #1
It's actually the most dangerous one to lose. Caroline warns that without curiosity, you become a prisoner of your own habits. This is the instructor who's been teaching for 20 years, but in reality, they've just taught one year of experience 20 times over.
Speaker #2
Ouch. That hits home.
Speaker #1
It's the silent danger. Your classes might be full, people might love you, but pedagogically, you are dead. You've stopped seeing the bodies in front of you. You're just seeing your own patterns projected onto them.
Speaker #0
She uses this metaphor that I thought was just brilliant, especially for this world. She compares a rigid instructor to a rigid spine.
Speaker #1
It's perfect, isn't it? In Pilates, we know rigid spine is a huge liability. If one part doesn't move, that force has to go somewhere else, and it usually causes a break or an injury just down the line.
Speaker #0
And she applies that directly to a career.
Speaker #1
She does. She talks about the living context. Bodies change, science changes, the market changes. If you are rigid, if your answer is always... well, this is how I learned it in 2010, you're brittle. You are going to break. Or even worse, you'll break your students because you're forcing a standard correction onto a unique problem.
Speaker #0
Which brings us to the core mechanic of how you avoid that rigidity. This was the part of the research I went back to, I think, three different times, double loop learning.
Speaker #1
Ah, yes. This is the heavy hitter.
Speaker #0
I feel like most of us, myself included, operate in single loop most of the time. Can you just break down the difference? Like, what does single loop look like in the wild?
Speaker #1
Okay, let's use a studio scenario. An instructor sees a client. We'll call him Dave. And Dave's pelvis is just wobbling all over the place during a leg lift.
Speaker #0
Classic Dave.
Speaker #1
Classic Dave. So the instructor. Operating in single loop mode. The goal is stable pelvis. The reality is wobbly pelvis. So the instructor applies the standard rule. Dave, stabilize your pelvis.
Speaker #0
Seems reasonable enough.
Speaker #1
Sure. Dave tries. He wobbles again. The instructor, still stuck in that single loop, thinks, okay, the strategy is right. The execution is the problem. So they do it again, but with more intensity. Dave, engage your core. Squeeze your glutes. Stabilize. They're just shouting loud.
Speaker #0
Well, I do this with my kids all the time. Put your shoes on. They don't do it. Put your shoes on. I'm not changing the strategy. I'm just adding force.
Speaker #1
That is the perfect definition of single loop. You're trying to fix the error without ever questioning the system that produced the error in the first place. You just assume the rule is right.
Speaker #0
So what does the double loop instructor do?
Speaker #1
The double loop instructor hits that same wall. Dave is still wobbling. And they stop. They actually loop back to question the variables themselves. They ask, why is my instruction failing?
Speaker #0
So they blame themselves.
Speaker #1
It's not about blame. It's investigation. They look at the conditions. Is Dave afraid of the movement? Is he holding his breath, which is creating pressure that destabilizes him? Does he have a hip mobility issue that makes it physically impossible to stabilize in this position?
Speaker #0
So they're not just looking at the result. They're examining the whole system.
Speaker #1
Precisely. And then, and this is the key, they change the system. They might say, OK, Dave, let's try bending the knee. Or let's change your breathing pattern here. They rewrite the rule for that specific moment.
Speaker #0
Why is this so hard for us to do? Intellectually, it makes perfect sense. But in the moment, it feels, I don't know, risky.
Speaker #1
It feels risky because it requires you to drop your ego. Caroline is crystal clear on this. Double loop learning demands vulnerability. Standing in front of a class, the single loop is safe. It lets you say, I am the expert. I gave the right cue. You fail to execute it.
Speaker #0
It protects the teacher's status.
Speaker #1
Correct. Double loop forces you to stand there and basically admit, I don't know why this isn't working yet. Let's figure it out. You have to embrace a moment of non-knowledge. And if your whole identity is built on that digital badge, that moment of not knowing feels like professional death.
Speaker #0
So that's the paradox. To be a real master, you have to be willing to look like a beginner who is still figuring things out.
Speaker #1
Which is exactly why true mastery is so rare. Most people would rather be right and ineffective. then curious and effective.
Speaker #0
This connects so perfectly to the idea of longevity. I mean, the source mentions instructors who have been at this for 35 years. In the fitness industry, where everything is about the new, new thing, that's ancient. How do they survive that long without becoming dinosaurs?
Speaker #1
Caroline uses the term flexible stability. Sounds like a complete paradox,
Speaker #0
right? It sounds a little like corporate jargon, to be honest.
Speaker #1
It does, but she grounds it so beautifully. She calls it a double fidelity. You have to be faithful to the technical base, the rigor, the history, the actual rules of the method. You can't just make things up.
Speaker #0
Okay.
Speaker #1
But you also have to be faithful to the evolution of the world, to science, to new research.
Speaker #0
So you're constantly straddling the past and the future.
Speaker #1
And the tool for doing that is what she calls the grammar versus recipe distinction. This was one of my favorite analogies in the whole piece.
Speaker #0
Okay, walk us through that.
Speaker #1
Think about learning a language. If you just buy a phrasebook, you're learning recipes. Where is the bathroom? I would like a coffee. You can say those phrases perfectly. But the second someone answers you with a sentence you haven't memorized, you're completely lost.
Speaker #0
You're stuck. You're done.
Speaker #1
But if you learn the grammar, the structure, the syntax, the principles, you can build sentences you've never even heard before.
Speaker #0
So in movement, the recipe is just the choreography. Do the hundred, then you do the roll-up.
Speaker #1
Exactly. And if a client comes in with, say, a fused spine and they can't do the roll-up, the recipe cook panics. But the grammar instructor, they know the principles, articulation, breath, center. So they can invent a modification right on the spot, a whole new sentence that serves the client perfectly, even if it's not in the official manual.
Speaker #0
So the instructors who last 35 years are the ones who speak the language fluently enough to write poetry, not just recite lines.
Speaker #1
That's a really beautiful way to put it. And that ability to write poetry is what keeps them motivated. She makes a great distinction between extrinsic and intrinsic motivation.
Speaker #0
Extrinsic is all the external stuff. Money, the Instagram likes, the applause.
Speaker #1
Which is so fragile. If you're teaching for applause, you're totally at the mercy of the audience. And eventually the audience gets bored. They move on to the next trend. Intrinsic motivation comes from the quality of the gesture. It's the fascination with the work itself.
Speaker #0
It almost sounds meditative.
Speaker #1
It is. She says the durable instructor is fueled by seeing the student's progression, not by hearing the student's praise.
Speaker #0
Speaking of the student, let's talk about that relationship. As these instructors get older, they often become mentors. And Caroline uses a specific French term here, passeur.
Speaker #1
Yes, a passeur. It's such a great way to redefine leadership. You see so many master trainers who operate like gurus. You know, I possess the knowledge, come and worship at my feet.
Speaker #0
Right.
Speaker #1
A passeur sees themselves as more of a conduit. They're just transmitting something that's bigger than them. The method, the history, the health of the body.
Speaker #0
Which implies a lack of ownership. You don't own the knowledge. You're just... It's caretaker for a while.
Speaker #1
And because you don't own it, you don't have to defend it so aggressively. She talks about the teacher's frame. It has to be strong enough to protect the student, but it has to stay permeable.
Speaker #0
Permeable?
Speaker #1
To what? To questions. To challenge. If a student asks why, a guru says, because I said so. A pursuer says, that's a great question. Let's look at the mechanism together.
Speaker #0
But creating that kind of environment where questions are welcome and mistakes are just data, that doesn't just happen. You have to build it. Carolyn talks about creating a community of practice, but she warns against the, you know, the kumbaya version of community.
Speaker #1
Right. It's not just about everyone liking each other. She argues you need two opposing forces, psychological safety and high standards, or as she calls it, exigence.
Speaker #0
And usually those are seen as opposites. You know, if you have high standards, people get stressed. If you have safety, people slack off.
Speaker #1
That's the big misconception. If you have safety without standards, you just get comfort. Good job you tried. But nobody actually gets better. It's just stagnation.
Speaker #0
And if you have standards without safety.
Speaker #1
That's just anxiety. If I am terrified that you'll judge me for making a mistake, I'm just going to hide my mistakes. And if I hide them, I can't fix them. So this community of practice has to be a place where it is safe to mess up, but it's mandatory to learn from it.
Speaker #0
She gives a very specific. protocol for how to give feedback in that environment, which I loved. It stops feedback from just feeling like, you know, some person's opinion.
Speaker #1
The observe, describe, interpret, propose model. Yeah, it's brilliant.
Speaker #0
Let's break that down because I think anyone listening could use this no matter what their job is.
Speaker #1
Okay. So step one, observe, just see what happened. Step two, describe. This is where most people fail. They skip description and they go straight to judgment.
Speaker #0
So instead of saying, that was sloppy, you'd say...
Speaker #1
You'd say, I saw that your left knee collapsed inward when you landed. That is a neutral fact. There's no emotion in it.
Speaker #0
Okay, then step three, interpret.
Speaker #1
This is the diagnosis. The knee collapsing could suggest the glute medius wasn't firing, or maybe the foot placement was a little too wide. And she notes, you have to do this with prudence. It's just a hypothesis, not a final judgment.
Speaker #0
And finally...
Speaker #1
Propose.
Speaker #0
Let's... try moving your foot in two inches and really focusing on that outer hip. See, because you did the first three steps, the proposal feels objective. It's not a criticism of the person. It's a solution to the problem you both observe.
Speaker #1
It takes a personal sting right out of it. It makes the problem something we're looking at together instead of a flaw that's inside of me.
Speaker #0
Exactly. It just turns feedback into useful data.
Speaker #1
Okay. I want to shift gears to the elephant in the room. We've talked about these high ideals, years of study, double loop learning. All of that takes time. And time, as we know, is money.
Speaker #0
The taboo subject.
Speaker #1
And Caroline doesn't shy away from it. She actually links money directly to ethics, which I found totally fascinating. Usually we think of money as corrupting ethics. She kind of suggests that poverty corrupts ethics. It's a provocative stance, but it's so practical. She argues that trust is a capital. To build that deep trust with a client, you need stability. If an instructor is just rushing from gig to gig, underpaid, stressed about rent, In total survival mode, they cannot afford the luxury of double loop learning.
Speaker #0
They just don't have the mental bandwidth to be curious.
Speaker #1
None. They revert to what's easy. They start selling fitness candy. You know, the trendy stuff that sells fast but has zero nutritional value. Or worse, they hang on to a client who's injured because they need the paycheck instead of referring them out to a specialist.
Speaker #0
So she's saying you actually need the material conditions, a decent wage, stability, to afford the ethical thickness of a true professional.
Speaker #1
She says. The problem isn't earning a living. The problem is earning a living by betraying the reality of the body. And if you're financially desperate, that temptation to betray the body for a buck just becomes overwhelming.
Speaker #0
This brings us to the other big economic force here, technology. We've got apps, AI coaches, Zoom classes. It's cheaper. It's faster. Does she see this as the enemy?
Speaker #1
She's more nuanced than that. She sees tech as an amplifier. It can amplify your reach. It can help with memory. But she is absolutely adamant that it cannot feel.
Speaker #0
It lacks the gaze, the human gaze.
Speaker #1
It goes right back to the double loop. An app can't see that you're holding tension in your jaw because you had a fight with your spouse. And that that tension is wrecking your neck alignment. A mentor sees that.
Speaker #0
An app can correct the what, but it can't understand the why.
Speaker #1
Correct. Technology is totally blind to the internal state. Caroline says the mentor sees what the student cannot see in themselves. And that just requires presence. You can't code that.
Speaker #0
So as we wrap up this deep dive, we're kind of left with what she calls a code of durability. If we had to distill this whole interview into a set of rules for our inner life, whether we teach Pilates or we code software, what would they be?
Speaker #1
I think there are four really clear rules here. First, never stop being a student. And that means actually being a beginner at something. Go do something you really suck at. It keeps you humble.
Speaker #0
It reminds you what it feels like to not have the answer. Second, seek feedback, not compliments. Compliments feel great, but they just lull you to sleep. Feedback's the only thing that actually wakes you up.
Speaker #1
Third.
Speaker #0
Don't isolate yourself. Isolation is just a petri dish for bad habits and single-loop thinking. You need that community of practice to call you on your stuff.
Speaker #1
And the last one.
Speaker #0
Keep joyous curiosity. And I love that she uses the word joyous. It's not supposed to be the anxiety of I need to know everything to prove I'm smart. It should be the joy of, wow, the human body is an infinite mystery and I actually get to explore it.
Speaker #1
Which brings us all the way back to her final truth. The body never lies.
Speaker #0
It's the ultimate reality check, isn't it? You can fake a resume, you can fake a digital badge, you can use all the fancy jargon on Instagram. But the body, the nervous system, the fascia, the spine, it only responds to truth. If your method is flawed, the body will show it, eventually. So to you listening, we've spent a lot of time on Pilates today, but the challenge here is completely universal. Where in your own life are you relying on a badge? Where are you just shouting instructions louder, single loop style, instead of stopping to ask? Why isn't this working?
Speaker #1
Where are you seeking comfort instead of competence?
Speaker #0
That's the question. True competence is what remains when the standard answers fail. Thanks for diving deep with us. Keep moving and keep asking the hard questions.
Speaker #2
See you next time.

About 🧘‍♀️ Biopilates Deep Dive

English : Steeve Pitt and Anabela Wilson Media Manager Global Hosting Stott Pilates @ Studio Biopilates Paris

French : Sébastien Flaurent et Claire Brunel Media Manager Global Hosting Stott Pilates @ Studio Biopilates Paris

Italien : Margaux Cangini - Instructor Stott Pilates

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

About 🧘‍♀️ Biopilates Deep Dive

English : Steeve Pitt and Anabela Wilson Media Manager Global Hosting Stott Pilates @ Studio Biopilates Paris

French : Sébastien Flaurent et Claire Brunel Media Manager Global Hosting Stott Pilates @ Studio Biopilates Paris

Italien : Margaux Cangini - Instructor Stott Pilates

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Description

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Transcription

Speaker #0
Instructor education isn't about a weekend workshop or a digital badge. It's a lifelong practice built on mentorship, study, and an ongoing curiosity about how the body moves.
Speaker #1
Wow. That is a pretty heavy way to start things off. It sort of draws a line in the sand immediately, doesn't it?
Speaker #0
It really does. That's a quote from Jim Heidenreich, who's the CEO of Stop Pilates. And, you know, when I first read it, I thought, OK, sure, lifelong learning sounds very noble.
Speaker #1
Right.
Speaker #0
But today we're diving into a source that takes... that quote and, well, it almost weaponizes it against the whole fast food culture of professional certification.
Speaker #1
Weaponizes is a strong word, but I don't think it's wrong. We're looking at an interview with Caroline Berger de Femini. She's the CEO of Studio BioPilates Paris. And she uses Heidenreich's words to just strip away what she calls the varnish of the fitness industry.
Speaker #0
The varnish. So that shiny, happy idea that you can just, you know, take a 20 hour course, get a certificate and poof, you're a master of human movement.
Speaker #1
Exactly. She's really dissecting the difference between just collecting certificates and actually possessing competence. And I think what's so interesting is, yeah, the context is Pilates, but the principles she lays out, especially this idea of double loop learning, it's really a masterclass for anyone who wants to be good at anything for more than like five minutes.
Speaker #0
OK, so let's get into it. Caroline's reaction to that quote, it's not just agreement. She immediately points to the dark side of the alternative, the whole weekend workshop. mentality. Now, just to play devil's advocate for a second, isn't accessible education a good thing? Why is she so hard on that quick certification model?
Speaker #1
It's not really about accessibility for her. It's about what she calls ethical thickness. She basically argues that when an industry sells you a digital badge for minimal effort, they're selling an illusion.
Speaker #0
The illusion of safety.
Speaker #1
An illusion of safety. You feel like an instructor. You've got the title. But you haven't done the internal work to actually handle the incredible complexity of a human body.
Speaker #0
So it's the difference between a status and a posture.
Speaker #1
That's a great way to put it. A status is, I'm done. I've arrived. A posture is, I am constantly positioning myself to learn. And she breaks this down into this kind of ecosystem. She says, you need three things to survive professionally. Mentorship, study, and curiosity.
Speaker #0
The three pillars.
Speaker #1
Yep. And here's the kicker. She says if you take even one of them away, the entire structure just collapses.
Speaker #0
Okay, okay, but let's stress test that. Let's say I'm a huge nerd. I study constantly. I'm reading every anatomy book, watching every lecture.
Speaker #1
Right.
Speaker #0
But I just don't have a mentor. Do I really collapse?
Speaker #1
According to her, yes. Yeah. You do, because without mentorship, all that study is just dry. It's theoretical. You might know the map, but you've never actually walked the territory. A mentor is the person who forces you to apply that book knowledge to a living, breathing, totally unpredictable human.
Speaker #0
All right, so let's flip it. What if I have an amazing mentor? I follow them everywhere. I do everything they do, but I hate studying. I just learn by watching.
Speaker #1
Then you're just a mimic. You become a little photocopy of your master. You might look great doing the moves, but you don't understand the why behind them. You're just repeating a recipe without understanding any of the chemistry.
Speaker #0
And that third one, curiosity. I have to admit, that feels like the vague, you know, soft skill of a bunch.
Speaker #1
It's actually the most dangerous one to lose. Caroline warns that without curiosity, you become a prisoner of your own habits. This is the instructor who's been teaching for 20 years, but in reality, they've just taught one year of experience 20 times over.
Speaker #2
Ouch. That hits home.
Speaker #1
It's the silent danger. Your classes might be full, people might love you, but pedagogically, you are dead. You've stopped seeing the bodies in front of you. You're just seeing your own patterns projected onto them.
Speaker #0
She uses this metaphor that I thought was just brilliant, especially for this world. She compares a rigid instructor to a rigid spine.
Speaker #1
It's perfect, isn't it? In Pilates, we know rigid spine is a huge liability. If one part doesn't move, that force has to go somewhere else, and it usually causes a break or an injury just down the line.
Speaker #0
And she applies that directly to a career.
Speaker #1
She does. She talks about the living context. Bodies change, science changes, the market changes. If you are rigid, if your answer is always... well, this is how I learned it in 2010, you're brittle. You are going to break. Or even worse, you'll break your students because you're forcing a standard correction onto a unique problem.
Speaker #0
Which brings us to the core mechanic of how you avoid that rigidity. This was the part of the research I went back to, I think, three different times, double loop learning.
Speaker #1
Ah, yes. This is the heavy hitter.
Speaker #0
I feel like most of us, myself included, operate in single loop most of the time. Can you just break down the difference? Like, what does single loop look like in the wild?
Speaker #1
Okay, let's use a studio scenario. An instructor sees a client. We'll call him Dave. And Dave's pelvis is just wobbling all over the place during a leg lift.
Speaker #0
Classic Dave.
Speaker #1
Classic Dave. So the instructor. Operating in single loop mode. The goal is stable pelvis. The reality is wobbly pelvis. So the instructor applies the standard rule. Dave, stabilize your pelvis.
Speaker #0
Seems reasonable enough.
Speaker #1
Sure. Dave tries. He wobbles again. The instructor, still stuck in that single loop, thinks, okay, the strategy is right. The execution is the problem. So they do it again, but with more intensity. Dave, engage your core. Squeeze your glutes. Stabilize. They're just shouting loud.
Speaker #0
Well, I do this with my kids all the time. Put your shoes on. They don't do it. Put your shoes on. I'm not changing the strategy. I'm just adding force.
Speaker #1
That is the perfect definition of single loop. You're trying to fix the error without ever questioning the system that produced the error in the first place. You just assume the rule is right.
Speaker #0
So what does the double loop instructor do?
Speaker #1
The double loop instructor hits that same wall. Dave is still wobbling. And they stop. They actually loop back to question the variables themselves. They ask, why is my instruction failing?
Speaker #0
So they blame themselves.
Speaker #1
It's not about blame. It's investigation. They look at the conditions. Is Dave afraid of the movement? Is he holding his breath, which is creating pressure that destabilizes him? Does he have a hip mobility issue that makes it physically impossible to stabilize in this position?
Speaker #0
So they're not just looking at the result. They're examining the whole system.
Speaker #1
Precisely. And then, and this is the key, they change the system. They might say, OK, Dave, let's try bending the knee. Or let's change your breathing pattern here. They rewrite the rule for that specific moment.
Speaker #0
Why is this so hard for us to do? Intellectually, it makes perfect sense. But in the moment, it feels, I don't know, risky.
Speaker #1
It feels risky because it requires you to drop your ego. Caroline is crystal clear on this. Double loop learning demands vulnerability. Standing in front of a class, the single loop is safe. It lets you say, I am the expert. I gave the right cue. You fail to execute it.
Speaker #0
It protects the teacher's status.
Speaker #1
Correct. Double loop forces you to stand there and basically admit, I don't know why this isn't working yet. Let's figure it out. You have to embrace a moment of non-knowledge. And if your whole identity is built on that digital badge, that moment of not knowing feels like professional death.
Speaker #0
So that's the paradox. To be a real master, you have to be willing to look like a beginner who is still figuring things out.
Speaker #1
Which is exactly why true mastery is so rare. Most people would rather be right and ineffective. then curious and effective.
Speaker #0
This connects so perfectly to the idea of longevity. I mean, the source mentions instructors who have been at this for 35 years. In the fitness industry, where everything is about the new, new thing, that's ancient. How do they survive that long without becoming dinosaurs?
Speaker #1
Caroline uses the term flexible stability. Sounds like a complete paradox,
Speaker #0
right? It sounds a little like corporate jargon, to be honest.
Speaker #1
It does, but she grounds it so beautifully. She calls it a double fidelity. You have to be faithful to the technical base, the rigor, the history, the actual rules of the method. You can't just make things up.
Speaker #0
Okay.
Speaker #1
But you also have to be faithful to the evolution of the world, to science, to new research.
Speaker #0
So you're constantly straddling the past and the future.
Speaker #1
And the tool for doing that is what she calls the grammar versus recipe distinction. This was one of my favorite analogies in the whole piece.
Speaker #0
Okay, walk us through that.
Speaker #1
Think about learning a language. If you just buy a phrasebook, you're learning recipes. Where is the bathroom? I would like a coffee. You can say those phrases perfectly. But the second someone answers you with a sentence you haven't memorized, you're completely lost.
Speaker #0
You're stuck. You're done.
Speaker #1
But if you learn the grammar, the structure, the syntax, the principles, you can build sentences you've never even heard before.
Speaker #0
So in movement, the recipe is just the choreography. Do the hundred, then you do the roll-up.
Speaker #1
Exactly. And if a client comes in with, say, a fused spine and they can't do the roll-up, the recipe cook panics. But the grammar instructor, they know the principles, articulation, breath, center. So they can invent a modification right on the spot, a whole new sentence that serves the client perfectly, even if it's not in the official manual.
Speaker #0
So the instructors who last 35 years are the ones who speak the language fluently enough to write poetry, not just recite lines.
Speaker #1
That's a really beautiful way to put it. And that ability to write poetry is what keeps them motivated. She makes a great distinction between extrinsic and intrinsic motivation.
Speaker #0
Extrinsic is all the external stuff. Money, the Instagram likes, the applause.
Speaker #1
Which is so fragile. If you're teaching for applause, you're totally at the mercy of the audience. And eventually the audience gets bored. They move on to the next trend. Intrinsic motivation comes from the quality of the gesture. It's the fascination with the work itself.
Speaker #0
It almost sounds meditative.
Speaker #1
It is. She says the durable instructor is fueled by seeing the student's progression, not by hearing the student's praise.
Speaker #0
Speaking of the student, let's talk about that relationship. As these instructors get older, they often become mentors. And Caroline uses a specific French term here, passeur.
Speaker #1
Yes, a passeur. It's such a great way to redefine leadership. You see so many master trainers who operate like gurus. You know, I possess the knowledge, come and worship at my feet.
Speaker #0
Right.
Speaker #1
A passeur sees themselves as more of a conduit. They're just transmitting something that's bigger than them. The method, the history, the health of the body.
Speaker #0
Which implies a lack of ownership. You don't own the knowledge. You're just... It's caretaker for a while.
Speaker #1
And because you don't own it, you don't have to defend it so aggressively. She talks about the teacher's frame. It has to be strong enough to protect the student, but it has to stay permeable.
Speaker #0
Permeable?
Speaker #1
To what? To questions. To challenge. If a student asks why, a guru says, because I said so. A pursuer says, that's a great question. Let's look at the mechanism together.
Speaker #0
But creating that kind of environment where questions are welcome and mistakes are just data, that doesn't just happen. You have to build it. Carolyn talks about creating a community of practice, but she warns against the, you know, the kumbaya version of community.
Speaker #1
Right. It's not just about everyone liking each other. She argues you need two opposing forces, psychological safety and high standards, or as she calls it, exigence.
Speaker #0
And usually those are seen as opposites. You know, if you have high standards, people get stressed. If you have safety, people slack off.
Speaker #1
That's the big misconception. If you have safety without standards, you just get comfort. Good job you tried. But nobody actually gets better. It's just stagnation.
Speaker #0
And if you have standards without safety.
Speaker #1
That's just anxiety. If I am terrified that you'll judge me for making a mistake, I'm just going to hide my mistakes. And if I hide them, I can't fix them. So this community of practice has to be a place where it is safe to mess up, but it's mandatory to learn from it.
Speaker #0
She gives a very specific. protocol for how to give feedback in that environment, which I loved. It stops feedback from just feeling like, you know, some person's opinion.
Speaker #1
The observe, describe, interpret, propose model. Yeah, it's brilliant.
Speaker #0
Let's break that down because I think anyone listening could use this no matter what their job is.
Speaker #1
Okay. So step one, observe, just see what happened. Step two, describe. This is where most people fail. They skip description and they go straight to judgment.
Speaker #0
So instead of saying, that was sloppy, you'd say...
Speaker #1
You'd say, I saw that your left knee collapsed inward when you landed. That is a neutral fact. There's no emotion in it.
Speaker #0
Okay, then step three, interpret.
Speaker #1
This is the diagnosis. The knee collapsing could suggest the glute medius wasn't firing, or maybe the foot placement was a little too wide. And she notes, you have to do this with prudence. It's just a hypothesis, not a final judgment.
Speaker #0
And finally...
Speaker #1
Propose.
Speaker #0
Let's... try moving your foot in two inches and really focusing on that outer hip. See, because you did the first three steps, the proposal feels objective. It's not a criticism of the person. It's a solution to the problem you both observe.
Speaker #1
It takes a personal sting right out of it. It makes the problem something we're looking at together instead of a flaw that's inside of me.
Speaker #0
Exactly. It just turns feedback into useful data.
Speaker #1
Okay. I want to shift gears to the elephant in the room. We've talked about these high ideals, years of study, double loop learning. All of that takes time. And time, as we know, is money.
Speaker #0
The taboo subject.
Speaker #1
And Caroline doesn't shy away from it. She actually links money directly to ethics, which I found totally fascinating. Usually we think of money as corrupting ethics. She kind of suggests that poverty corrupts ethics. It's a provocative stance, but it's so practical. She argues that trust is a capital. To build that deep trust with a client, you need stability. If an instructor is just rushing from gig to gig, underpaid, stressed about rent, In total survival mode, they cannot afford the luxury of double loop learning.
Speaker #0
They just don't have the mental bandwidth to be curious.
Speaker #1
None. They revert to what's easy. They start selling fitness candy. You know, the trendy stuff that sells fast but has zero nutritional value. Or worse, they hang on to a client who's injured because they need the paycheck instead of referring them out to a specialist.
Speaker #0
So she's saying you actually need the material conditions, a decent wage, stability, to afford the ethical thickness of a true professional.
Speaker #1
She says. The problem isn't earning a living. The problem is earning a living by betraying the reality of the body. And if you're financially desperate, that temptation to betray the body for a buck just becomes overwhelming.
Speaker #0
This brings us to the other big economic force here, technology. We've got apps, AI coaches, Zoom classes. It's cheaper. It's faster. Does she see this as the enemy?
Speaker #1
She's more nuanced than that. She sees tech as an amplifier. It can amplify your reach. It can help with memory. But she is absolutely adamant that it cannot feel.
Speaker #0
It lacks the gaze, the human gaze.
Speaker #1
It goes right back to the double loop. An app can't see that you're holding tension in your jaw because you had a fight with your spouse. And that that tension is wrecking your neck alignment. A mentor sees that.
Speaker #0
An app can correct the what, but it can't understand the why.
Speaker #1
Correct. Technology is totally blind to the internal state. Caroline says the mentor sees what the student cannot see in themselves. And that just requires presence. You can't code that.
Speaker #0
So as we wrap up this deep dive, we're kind of left with what she calls a code of durability. If we had to distill this whole interview into a set of rules for our inner life, whether we teach Pilates or we code software, what would they be?
Speaker #1
I think there are four really clear rules here. First, never stop being a student. And that means actually being a beginner at something. Go do something you really suck at. It keeps you humble.
Speaker #0
It reminds you what it feels like to not have the answer. Second, seek feedback, not compliments. Compliments feel great, but they just lull you to sleep. Feedback's the only thing that actually wakes you up.
Speaker #1
Third.
Speaker #0
Don't isolate yourself. Isolation is just a petri dish for bad habits and single-loop thinking. You need that community of practice to call you on your stuff.
Speaker #1
And the last one.
Speaker #0
Keep joyous curiosity. And I love that she uses the word joyous. It's not supposed to be the anxiety of I need to know everything to prove I'm smart. It should be the joy of, wow, the human body is an infinite mystery and I actually get to explore it.
Speaker #1
Which brings us all the way back to her final truth. The body never lies.
Speaker #0
It's the ultimate reality check, isn't it? You can fake a resume, you can fake a digital badge, you can use all the fancy jargon on Instagram. But the body, the nervous system, the fascia, the spine, it only responds to truth. If your method is flawed, the body will show it, eventually. So to you listening, we've spent a lot of time on Pilates today, but the challenge here is completely universal. Where in your own life are you relying on a badge? Where are you just shouting instructions louder, single loop style, instead of stopping to ask? Why isn't this working?
Speaker #1
Where are you seeking comfort instead of competence?
Speaker #0
That's the question. True competence is what remains when the standard answers fail. Thanks for diving deep with us. Keep moving and keep asking the hard questions.
Speaker #2
See you next time.

About 🧘‍♀️ Biopilates Deep Dive

English : Steeve Pitt and Anabela Wilson Media Manager Global Hosting Stott Pilates @ Studio Biopilates Paris

French : Sébastien Flaurent et Claire Brunel Media Manager Global Hosting Stott Pilates @ Studio Biopilates Paris

Italien : Margaux Cangini - Instructor Stott Pilates

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

About 🧘‍♀️ Biopilates Deep Dive

English : Steeve Pitt and Anabela Wilson Media Manager Global Hosting Stott Pilates @ Studio Biopilates Paris

French : Sébastien Flaurent et Claire Brunel Media Manager Global Hosting Stott Pilates @ Studio Biopilates Paris

Italien : Margaux Cangini - Instructor Stott Pilates

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Embed