- Speaker #0
Welcome to the Deep Dive. We're the podcast that sorts through different sources to pull out the really key insights, basically giving you a shortcut to getting properly informed.
- Speaker #1
That's the goal.
- Speaker #0
And today, we are diving deep into Pilates. Hmm,
- Speaker #1
a popular one.
- Speaker #0
Exactly. And our main source here is an exclusive interview with Caroline Berger de Femini. She founded Studio Bio Pilates Paris and is a big deal internationally as a Stote Pilates trainer.
- Speaker #1
Right. So 2-2-T is a very well-respected sort of contemporary approach built on the original work.
- Speaker #0
Precisely. So our mission today, we want to get to the real essence of original Pilates. Okay. And understand the challenges it's facing now in the modern world. And maybe uncover why its core ideas are, well, more vital than ever if you want to understand mindful movement.
- Speaker #1
Sounds like a great plan. Where do we start?
- Speaker #0
Well, right away, Caroline mentioned something in the interview that's pretty surprising. Oh, yeah. Yeah, apparently. Many newly trained Pilates instructors, they actually fear teaching the original Joseph Pilates method.
- Speaker #1
Fear. That's a strong word. Why would that be?
- Speaker #0
Good question. Why this apprehension?
- Speaker #1
Well, you know, when you dig into it a bit, it actually starts to make sense.
- Speaker #0
How so?
- Speaker #1
The original method, it's tough. It demands a certain rigor. Rigor. Okay. Yeah, and it makes you slow down. You need really precise breathing, specifically that lateral thoracic. breathing.
- Speaker #0
Ah, the breathing into the sides of the ribs.
- Speaker #1
Exactly. Caroline calls it the heart of Pilates, even our anchor. And crucially, it requires detailed correction.
- Speaker #0
Okay, so rigor, slowing down, specific breathing, correction. I can see how that might feel different from a typical workout class.
- Speaker #1
Totally, because today a lot of students, they just want to burn calories, right? They want to sweat, maybe be entertained.
- Speaker #0
Get a quick fix.
- Speaker #1
Pretty much. So new instructors feeling this pressure, they start worrying, will they seem rigid or boring?
- Speaker #0
Or maybe not commercial enough if they focus too much on that precision.
- Speaker #1
Exactly that. Which brings us straight to the commercial side of things.
- Speaker #0
The business reality.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, the fitness market, Carolyn calls it implacable, unforgiving. Studio managers often just push instructors to make people move. Rather than... Rather than make them feel. There's a big difference. She even mentioned colleagues getting criticized for spending, you know, too much time... Explaining fundamentals.
- Speaker #0
Even core concepts like that breathing.
- Speaker #1
Even the breathing, despite it being absolutely central. It's a real tension.
- Speaker #0
Wow. Okay, so if correction is so central, like Joseph Pilates insisted, why is it so tricky, so delicate for instructors now? Well,
- Speaker #1
correction really is, as Caroline puts it, the essence of pedagogy in Pilates. It's not just nudging someone's arm.
- Speaker #0
It's more than just the physical adjustment.
- Speaker #1
Much more. it as opening a door in the student's brain, helping them perceive something, feel something they wouldn't get on their own.
- Speaker #0
That sounds quite intimate,
- Speaker #1
really. It is, and it absolutely needs a strong relationship. Trust is key.
- Speaker #0
Makes sense.
- Speaker #1
She shared this great story. A young woman came for her first class, and Caroline corrected her five times.
- Speaker #0
Five times in one class. How does she react?
- Speaker #1
She was surprised, almost destabilized, apparently, just not used to that level of attention.
- Speaker #0
I can imagine. But what happened then?
- Speaker #1
Well, just two weeks later, the same woman came back and said, it's incredible. I walk differently. I breathe better.
- Speaker #0
Wow. So the correction, even if a bit jarring at first, actually worked.
- Speaker #1
Profoundly. That's what Caroline means by the magic of correction. It can be transformative, starting from that direct, maybe slightly uncomfortable moment.
- Speaker #0
That really speaks volumes about the potential depth, doesn't it? How that directness can unlock something. But with all these pressures, this focus on entertainment. Has the method itself kind of lost its way, lost its splendor?
- Speaker #1
Carolyn argues, no, it hasn't lost anything intrinsic. Its image, though, that's definitely changed. How so? Well, when it moved into fitness gyms around the 2000s, that definitely democratized it. More people could access it, which she sees as good.
- Speaker #0
Made it less exclusive.
- Speaker #1
Exactly. But the downside was often excessive simplification. Ah,
- Speaker #0
so it got watered down.
- Speaker #1
In many cases, yeah. It was often presented really reductively, just gentle gymnastics, maybe an anti-stress thing, or simple stretching.
- Speaker #0
But it's more than that.
- Speaker #1
Oh, much more. She's clear. Pilates is a global discipline that covers respiration, posture, strength, flexibility.
- Speaker #0
Okay, the physical aspects.
- Speaker #1
But also, and this is often missed, psychology. It's not just fitness. She calls it an art corporal.
- Speaker #0
A body art. Yeah. Like emphasizing grace and control, not just reps.
- Speaker #1
Precisely. mindful movement as an art form.
- Speaker #0
That's psychological dimension. Yeah. That's interesting. It's not something you hear about much in, say, a gym class description. Can you give an example of that? How does that manifest?
- Speaker #1
Yeah. She told this really powerful story about an executive. He was deep in burnout. Okay. So tense. He couldn't even sit still without crossing his arms or hiking up his shoulders. Corrections initially made him even more tense.
- Speaker #0
Right. Resistance.
- Speaker #1
But session by session, through very precise breathing work and tiny micro adjustments in the Pilates movements, he gradually started to let go.
- Speaker #0
Slowly softening.
- Speaker #1
Exactly. And then one day he came in and just said, for the first time in months, I slept eight hours straight.
- Speaker #0
Wow. That's huge.
- Speaker #1
It is. And Caroline stresses that wasn't just his muscles relaxing. It was a psychic liberation.
- Speaker #0
A mental release triggered by the physical precision.
- Speaker #1
That's it. It shows the deep impact when you really embrace that precision and depth, going way beyond just the physical exercises.
- Speaker #0
That really drives home the point about precision leading to unexpected shifts. And building on that precision, Caroline shared some key insights about learning movement itself, didn't she? Especially around repetition.
- Speaker #1
Yes, absolutely. She calls this one point. capital data something often missed capital data okay what is it it's about how many times you need to repeat a movement correctly from the very beginning for it to really integrate how many on average around 400 to 500 conscious repetitions four to five hundred conscious meaning paying full attention exactly full attention and ideally with correction right but what happens if you learn it wrong first like
- Speaker #0
pulling on your neck in a roll-up or always turning your feet out when you shouldn't.
- Speaker #1
Ah, well that's the bigger challenge. Correcting a movement pattern that's already ingrained incorrectly.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. How many reps then?
- Speaker #1
Significantly more. Somewhere between 2,000 and 3,000 repetitions.
- Speaker #0
2 to 3,000. Just to fix a mistake.
- Speaker #1
Yep. It really hammers home that Pilates is this art of patience and precision. How well you learn it initially basically sets the course. Fixing old mistakes just takes a lot more time and rigor.
- Speaker #0
Wow. 400, right, thousands of fixings. Oh no. Stark. It really highlights that an initial quality of learning isn't just helpful, it's almost everything.
- Speaker #1
It really is. It underlines that patience she mentioned.
- Speaker #0
So how do we square this? Yeah. This need for depth, for patience, for precision, with the whole tradition versus modernity thing in Pilates, especially now, it's everywhere globally.
- Speaker #1
Caroline has a neat way of framing it, not versus, but fidelity and adaptation.
- Speaker #0
Fidelity and adaptation. Yeah. What does that mean in practice?
- Speaker #1
Fidelity is about sticking to the core, the founding principles. Breathing, centering, flow, precision, non-negotiables.
- Speaker #0
The heart of the method.
- Speaker #1
Exactly. Adaptation is about finding a modern language for it. Using tools we have now, videos, maybe music sometimes, hybrid classes, even pedagogical podcasts like this one.
- Speaker #0
So use new tools, but don't lose the essence.
- Speaker #1
Precisely. The mistake, she says, is seeding entirely to modes, just following trends. Pilates isn't just fitness like others. Remember, it's that art corporal.
- Speaker #0
The body art.
- Speaker #1
Right. And she talks about this global presence being kind of paradoxical.
- Speaker #0
How so?
- Speaker #1
It's everywhere. Studios, gyms, dance schools, physios, sports teams. Yet the original deeper version often gets labeled elitist.
- Speaker #0
Because it takes more time, maybe more money.
- Speaker #1
Often, yes. And this widespread has created all sorts of learning formats. Some are quick intros, but they often lack the time for students or even instructors to get that deep embodied experience.
- Speaker #0
That feeling it in your own body.
- Speaker #1
Yes. And without that intimate experience, it's hard for an instructor to guide others confidently, especially with corrections. True transmission needs time, repetition, embodiment.
- Speaker #0
That's what separates someone just showing exercises from someone really transforming posture and breathing.
- Speaker #1
Exactly, which is why she also stresses how vital communities are for instructors.
- Speaker #0
Communities for support.
- Speaker #1
Support, sharing doubts, mutual aid, ensuring good transmission, preventing isolation, but also for innovation.
- Speaker #0
Ah, so the community drives progress too.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, integrating new research, collaborating with, say, osteopaths, adapting for specific groups like prenatal or rehab. She sees it as this great international conversation that builds on the foundation without betraying it.
- Speaker #0
That's a really healthy way to look at evolution, fidelity and adaptation supported by community. Okay, can you give us a really concrete example, something from a class setting that shows blending that depth with maybe a modern time-constrained reality.
- Speaker #1
Sure. Let's take the roll up again, that fundamental exercise, rolling the spine up and down off the mat. In a quick, maybe more mechanical class, the instruction might just be come up, go down. Simple command. Right.
- Speaker #0
Functional.
- Speaker #1
But in a deeper approach, even if you only have 30 seconds, the instructor might guide. Inspire. Feel your shoulder blades slide down your back. Now, expire, feel each vertebra peel off the mat one by one.
- Speaker #0
Ah, much more sensory detail.
- Speaker #1
Exactly. In the same amount of time, the student gets a totally different, much richer internal experience of the movement.
- Speaker #0
That makes sense. You're guiding their awareness.
- Speaker #1
And she told this lovely story about a 16-year-old. After getting that kind of deeper instruction for a roll-up, he just said, Wow, I had never felt my spine like that before.
- Speaker #0
That's the light bulb moment.
- Speaker #1
Those are the moments, she says, that change everything. It shows you can transmit depth, even briefly if you choose your words carefully with intention.
- Speaker #0
It's about the quality of instruction, not just the quantity of time.
- Speaker #1
Right. And she even shared her own experience starting out as a trainer. Passionate, she said, but terrified to correct her first student.
- Speaker #0
Really? Even her?
- Speaker #1
Yeah. But she realized, if I didn't dare to intervene, I wasn't doing my job. Her own growth came from having the courage to correct and then observe what happened.
- Speaker #0
So her message to new instructors is,
- Speaker #1
Basically, you cannot be an instructor without correcting. Students are there for guidance, she points out, not just to copy someone.
- Speaker #0
That's a powerful point. They want the expertise, the feedback. Wow, okay, this has been quite the journey into Pilates. We've really covered some ground.
- Speaker #1
We certainly have.
- Speaker #0
The essential role of correction, even if that feels scary sometimes, the surprising psychological depth, way beyond just exercise.
- Speaker #1
The psychic liberation. Yeah.
- Speaker #0
And the sheer patience needed for real learning, those repetition numbers are eye-opening.
- Speaker #1
Definitely.
- Speaker #0
And then finding that balance fidelity to the core principles while adapting to today.
- Speaker #1
That fidelity and adaptation piece feels crucial.
- Speaker #0
It does. So for instructors listening who might feel that pressure, who might doubt being demanding, what's the final word from Caroline?
- Speaker #1
Her message is pretty clear. Don't be afraid to be demanding. Your job isn't just to entertain. It's to transform.
- Speaker #0
Don't try to please everyone at the expense of the method.
- Speaker #1
Exactly. Correct. Explain. Slow things down when needed.
- Speaker #0
Because the method itself is strong enough.
- Speaker #1
Absolutely. She finishes by saying, look, the Pilates method has lasted a century. It's weathered all sorts of fitness trends. It'll only keep surviving if instructors are courageous.
- Speaker #0
Courageous enough to teach it properly. Yes.
- Speaker #1
Every time a student breathes better, stands taller, moves more freely, that honors Joseph Pilates. That, she says, is the true modernity, staying faithful to the essence while speaking the language of today.
- Speaker #0
Staying faithful to the essence while speaking the language of today. That's a fantastic way to put it.
- Speaker #1
It really resonates.
- Speaker #0
It leaves us, and you listening, with a final thought to chew on, perhaps. Thinking about this deep dive, what insight about the importance of precision in learning, or maybe the courage needed to choose depth over just quick, easy gratification, how might that apply elsewhere? In other areas of your own life, totally outside of physical practice.
- Speaker #1
That's a good question.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, just consider how embracing that kind of patience, that detailed attention we see in Pilates, how could that maybe transform other things you're learning or other goals you're pursuing? Something to think about.
