Transcription

• Speaker #0

  Hello!

• Speaker #1

  Passionate about sustainability, energy and climate? You're in the right place. Welcome to Energetic. I'm Marine Cornelis, and together we will engage with people who dedicate their lives to climate justice and making a just energy transition happen. They may be activists, scientists, policy makers or other enthusiasts just like you. Let the life stories and insights inspire you to build a better future for people and the planet. Welcome to the final episode of our special series on energy citizenship brought to you by the Energy Prospects Project. Over the past episodes, we've delved into how citizen involvement is key to driving Europe's energy and climate transitions. Today, we conclude our series by summarizing the powerful insights we've gained and discussing that the future holds for energy citizenship around the Union. Join us as we reflect on the impactful stories and lessons learned, all made possible by the visionary support of Energy Prospects. Our third guest in this series is Karin Thalbeck, the dedicated research fellow in European energy policy at the Jacques Delors Institute and the Jacques Delors Energy Center. Since August 2021, Karin has focused on the evolution of the European Green Deal and how it actually delivers through the Energy Prospect project. Karin previously served at the Swedish Association of Local Authorities and Regions in Brussels. and contributed to an EU-funded energy efficiency project in the Swedish municipality's climate and energy division. Her broad experience spans significant collaborations in India and Sweden, promoting inclusive and sustainable local transitions. Join us as Karin discusses her dynamic role in driving forward the energy transition, underscored by her rich and multicultural insight. Karin, welcome to Energetic.

• Speaker #0

  Thank you so much, Marie. Thanks for the lovely introduction as well.

• Speaker #1

  Thank you so much, Karim. So can you share a bit about your, let's say, personal and professional journey that led you to your current role in the Energy Prospect project in Paris? I mean, you've lived in many different places in Europe. So why Paris and how did this energy project shape you?

• Speaker #0

  Thanks for your question. It's interesting because ahead of this episode I was thinking a little bit about that. And I think the job here at the Jack Delors Institute, and especially on this particular topic, so citizen involvement and engagement in the energy transition, sometimes you just have those moments where a lot of different paths that maybe have not made a lot of sense. in your mind because you haven't really had a plan but sometimes those paths align perfectly and I feel that was a little bit what happened when I found this job in Paris and was lucky enough to be selected to do it as well because as you said before kind of getting into the European bubble or the European policies come from a back of international development. a corporation but then again it's kind of the same topics but you have a different perspective so working kind of on local participatory sustainable development i did it for a little bit for a project in india i've also been very much engaged with a swedish ngo like the biggest environmental ngo we have in sweden you for many years also but there in the context of my hometown stockholm more unsustainable lifestyles yeah so it's interesting how you have sometimes sliding doors bringing to the to the place where you're at at and that's um

• Speaker #1

  i mean that's also really interesting that you brought the topic of india because in my field of work in my 15 years of experience that mostly at european level and more recently in in in africa and also in mexico and And through the podcast, I see it very clearly that we Europeans, we tend to take things for granted and we tend to kind of overlook what's happening in many different places. Whereas there is actually so much to learn and, you know, the various perspectives and solutions you get from other countries or other contexts. There is so much first to learn and so much nuance to also bring home and to kind of build other. related solutions right it's really we need this kind of forces creative forces coming from different experiences and from the various lighting doors that we have in front of us right yeah no that's for sure uh and i think that's interesting so you then more coming from the european background and i'm starting to dwell into the international for me was a little bit more well

• Speaker #0

  i had kind of the local engagement in my hometown and then i did my studies and i started working more within the so international development corporation and going abroad. And then for me, And I think this ties very nicely with the project also, because I think for me, one of the main concerns working in that field. So even though I was working for an organization who were really trying to support organizations that already had projects up and going to not, you know, kind of trying to impose your vision or your way of doing things onto local communities that we do not know as well as us. you know the people actually growing up living working there etc it's since you're coming from across the world even though you're trying to do good there's always gonna be a bit of that you know imposing your vision and especially since you know it's tied to financing so these initiatives it's not always for the bad of course there's also a positive like exchange and um development and you know growth also but for me it was always something that I had a little bit of a hard time to maybe to fully accept these power dynamics also you know being the one coming from Europe then which is why I at least wanted to get more involved so to say in the so in the the transition as sustainability transition where I'm from so in Europe and here's what I said you about kind of these ties to the project that is very much the same. So I know that in the two previous episodes, also you talked to our researchers from Eastern Europe. And I also think that in these kinds of conversations, just on citizen engagement, we are very often very focused on Western Europe. And it's the same thing here. And it's something that we've seen in our project, that these different types of citizen involvement and engagement, they are so like locally. Yeah, they're very contextually developed. They will take various expressions depending on where you are. Like you talked to my project colleagues who are more in a post-Soviet setting. Of course that energy citizenship there will develop in very different ways than, for example, here in France or where I'm from in Sweden. So I think also from my previous experiences working more with this international outlook. It's really something I'm bringing with me, this kind of context sensitivity and always, you know, listening to the people who are actually working and living their lives in these different contexts. And I think it's a nice output of our project also that we had a very vast geographical representation and I think it really enriched the process a lot.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, that's really interesting that you're bringing this point in particular, because we can see that the challenges of global warming and climate change and the energy transition are... global, but the solutions need to be tailored for the local level. And I mean, in the previous conversations, as you mentioned, we had a conversation first from Edina from Hungary, who was initially more into environmentalism and local groups. And we also talked about local agriculture, if you see what I mean. And then the following. episode so episode 51 was with Yanis from from Latvia and that was really interesting he brought the topic of you know nimbism not in my backyard in the Latvian context totally relate with what you said that it's really about tailoring the the big ideas into the very local context but also make sure that you the local solutions get a voice at a higher level and get an echo somehow. And in my view, it's also what people like us who are able to work in different contexts, in different multicultural, multidimensional projects, organizations and so on are able to bring. There is no one-size-fits-all solution. There is no one single form of truth and of trust. It's very ingrained in different local successes and failures as well. And in particular, was there any, let's say, best practice that you noticed about some form of social acceptance of projects really throughout the Energy Prospect project?

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, I think some things that stood out a lot for me. So as you know, within the project, we have kind of done this. Big mapping of almost 600 different initiatives that contribute to the energy transition in different ways, like everything from initiatives that enable citizens in the private sphere, within organizations, like in the public sphere, in social movements, but then also within kind of citizen organizations. And this is where I'm coming from, some of the best practices that maybe stood out the most to me. are like when citizen-based organizations come together and form partnerships, for example, with public actors such as municipalities, but also different private actors that are active at the local level. So if we're talking about renewable energy projects, it would be developers, different types of investors, and also very much here, again, depending on the local and national context, of course. But I think this is something that I'm very much interested in. and exploring further and how these types of partnerships at the local scale can be fostered, could be developed, can be shared because what we see. It's for example, so if you have a renewable energy project at the local level, by bringing in the municipality, it's going to create more legitimacy for what they're doing. Also having kind of the citizens'voices there, they're kind of creating these opportunity spaces where people can actually come, have their, you know, voices heard and feel that in a way that's, you know, developing. expertise but not only also being part of of a community and thinking about what's good for the local level because what we've seen also in a lot of these projects that it's not always about the energy transition per se but it's like the energy transition that can actually make sure that financial profits stay at the local level that they can be reinvested into different community purposes and you know create values on the ground And then with the private actors coming in as well, of course, it can be a little bit tricky because you want to be careful that, you know, they don't use these types of partnerships or work with, for example, energy communities as a way to, you know, perhaps greenwash parts of their portfolios that are not as green. But hearing even from very... They say quite radical organizations that even they see radical in the sense, very much like citizen justice base, very much environmental and social activists saying that even they see the benefits of bringing in the private actors, because we need to scale up and we need that capital. to be able to do things at a larger level.

• Speaker #1

  That's really interesting because if you bring the private actors on board, it's not only their capital that you bring, but also their skills. The people who are involved in those organizations, the skill sets really of those organizations, and they are extremely part of the local network, the social locals. fabric and somehow it's true that they tend to be a little bit overlooked in the conversations you you many projects tend to see okay uh ngos and municipalities and omit let's say the the local smes and even the mom and pop shops but actually they are also on board they are also facing the struggles and they are also bringing opportunities uh so it's about like creating the local like the local network and and i mean in europe i think most of the europeans work for smes right so so it makes also a lot of sense to to touch people where they actually work right

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, that's exactly what I think. So yeah, I don't know, I just think I also come a little bit from a background, because I think we tend, like, you know, people who are, I've also been very much into the environmentalist kind of movement. As I said, I was very active for almost 10 years in a big environmental NGO in Sweden. But I think, yeah, sometimes we tend to kind of see businesses in a one-dimensional way and we might not really see the positive potential that is there. Of course, you should always be critical and nuanced. But I do think, and from what I've seen in this project, I think that there's a lot of goodwill and there are a lot of exciting opportunities to further explore. And what I said about my own personal experience is that I come from a family who had a small kind of industrial company, which was never a question maybe of making a big profit, but it was always about finding the good solutions for society as a whole, contributing to something good. And also just like the little community that you have in there. in a company to, you know, be a good employer, et cetera, et cetera. And to me, that is also a way of practicing citizenship. And it's a different variance.

• Speaker #1

  It's kind of formalized as corporate social responsibility, but actually it goes way beyond that. It's about like you develop a service, you develop a product, you develop something like. tailored to the local context as well. And I must say that it's not a conversation we've had often in Energetic. Really love to dig that further. And also, you know, there are also ways to mobilize the capital that could be really interesting topics for this podcast. So if you are listening to it right now and you have like ideas of... public-private partnership for the greater good on climate and energy in mind, please reach out to me. I guess I would be really, really interested in exploring this conversation. And something that's really come out as well from what you're saying is the question also of public perception, like having those kind of local actors from the municipalities to the, let's say, more environmental friendly or people. oriented NGOs is boosting the public perception of certain, the visibility, the legitimacy of certain projects. So it's about trust, right? So how do you frame it and really in this context, are they, let's say some good practice that you have noticed in really effectively building this trust, especially in diverse communities? Because I mean, as you've focused on more than 600 people, But in cases, you've seen so many different situations where you have a more homogeneous group of people, where some others are way more diverse. So I would expect trust to be very central to that. But how did that really happen?

• Speaker #0

  I think that's a really interesting question. And I think for me, that's like one of the key. kind of learnings and taking out of this project is that like trust because we also did this mapping of different factors across our project countries and like what were some of the main barriers for people to actually engage or get involved in the energy transition in different ways and they're like trust was constantly one of the key barriers even though it kind of was expressed or it can be was configured in different ways in the different contexts. I mean, you've had the conversation with our Hungarian researcher, Idina, and I think in Hungary, it's quite like there's also the mistrust very much towards the government and et cetera. But that's also what we saw in France, because France is actually one of the countries in Europe that has the lowest levels of trust for the government. And so I think an interesting thing here is to, you know, look into what could be some of these kind of metrics to look at trust for the energy transition because i've been trying to look and it seems like you know we look at energy democracy we look at energy justice more and more uh social acceptability even social desirability these days but i think the component of trust it's been less developed in the context of the energy transition i think it's something very interesting so concerning kind of best practices since Our role as the Jacques Delors Institute in this whole project has been to kind of, you know, have this helicopter view. Also, you know, to make some suggestions at the European level. For me, there are a couple of components that I've identified so far. So we know for trust in general, one of the biggest barriers that leads to mistrust is inequality. So socioeconomic inequality. And I think here's also something in the energy transition. that quite recently so with the energy price crisis i mean it's a topic that's really been much more widely discussed you know i think the topic of energy poverty from being quite marginal it's become much more well mainstream and also just kind of the the different types of inequalities just in the context of the energy systems that were you know brought to the surface by the energy price crisis so their inequality is is one thing And here it's all about making the actions that everyone has to undertake. So talking about energy efficiency, like in the home, so energy retrofitting, access to clean mobility options, etc. So to make kind of those things that we know that everyone has to do or has to get involved with sooner or later to make it be, you know, affordable, easily accessible for everyone. And here we also see that these kind of, you know. As we call energy citizenship initiatives, also working on the ground, oftentimes locally with communities, that these are really good kind of places. Also, because they pilot and they integrate often these values, these different types of social values. So to kind of even out the differences in taking particular care of the most vulnerable. There are a lot of very interesting things going on where they work with these communities already, or just more broadly have these visions where there's potential if also these actors could you know get the support they need to scale up it's something that could potentially you know if we talk about trust so this was the inequality part of the trust for the energy transition then another thing that we've been talking a lot about in the project so it's different types of participation in governance which is also something that can help to increase legitimacy for energy transition policies And then there's something that I've thought a lot about myself because it's something coming from this kind of international development corporation scene where we talk a lot about policy cohesion. And policy cohesion in this sense would be like so. The politicians are saying, okay, so for the energy transition, we're going to move, you know, to renewable energy, for example, while they're at the same time giving a lot of subsidies, for example, to, you know, the fossil fuel sectors, which has its reasons, of course, but it's an incohesion in the policy. So between kind of where the money goes and where the talk is, which I also think is something. that it creates distrust.

• Speaker #1

  Yes, absolutely. It creates mistrust because on the one hand, you say something, the government will say something and the other one, it's going to say something else. And of course, it creates a lot of confusion and it creates a lot of, let's say, also some social unrest, right? Your project comes, I mean, it started during the energy price crisis, which itself comes a few years after the yellow vest movement. And I... Remember your colleagues from the Jacques Delors Institute looking really into the topic of the yellow vest, because also based in France, but this kind of European helicopter understanding of what was at stake is really exactly that. It's about like how much if we want to go together somewhere, we need to have a coherent language, right? We need to speak somehow the same language. That's really super fascinating that you take the word cohesion, because also the EU has cohesion funds. I mean, nobody ever uses the word cohesion except for EU projects. So you said social inequalities and a lack of cohesion, it creates a lot of mistrust. What also creates a lot of mistrust, according to you?

• Speaker #0

  So I think one of the big problems right now is also people here, both at the national level, but you also have at the European level. So a lot of fears, I think, for the energy transition. And I think because they hear, okay, you read somewhere or you hear somewhere that, yeah, we're going to be forced to, you know, replace our gas boiler. We're going to need to get a heat pump, etc, etc. because of these new EU rules, or it may even be at the national level. And I think one thing in our project, so related to trust also, is that citizenship in this kind of context, it's like, okay, citizenship, it's responsibilities, it's rights, but it has to be thought about as a relationship. So, for example, if we have these... rules which kind of will imply an individualization of responsibilities somehow so i mean not only but i think a lot of citizens perceive it in this way so it will be up to them to make the the move to get a heat pump for example or to energy retrofit or to get an electric car or start to commute by you know train bus whatever is accessible you you need to think about it in this um in a sense that it's a mutually a mutual relationship and where actually the state and other actors need to have responsibility to provide the the right you know environment

• Speaker #1

  for citizens to be able to do this yeah there is like this pressure on making an effort that you may You feel that you are pressured to do a certain effort while other people don't and the people who should be leading the way, like governments and government representatives are not really showing the example and they are asking you to do everything and they would do nothing. It's like this kind of perception, right?

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, exactly. And while there are perhaps not the right supports. perhaps there are not the right kind of financial subsidies available. And even if they are available, maybe people can't access them because they don't have the time or the administration to actually access these subsidies are complicated, etc. And I think all of these things could be looked at under a framework of trust. And here's something I wanted to add something because so we did this very big. a survey in our project so we did a pan-european survey or a little bit over 10 000 participants so you were talking also about the perception of citizens with regards to the energy transition and so in the project we've been looking at citizens roles in the energy transition and here i think also citizens perceiving mostly that their roles in the energy transition is, at least what we saw, is that they're very much confined to the private sphere or to the household, which might not be so strange after all. Of course, it's easier to do something within your own home or with your own lifestyle, for example, like switch to a green electricity provider, do some energy improvements in the home, et cetera, et cetera. But as we talked about before, and as my project colleagues talked about before, there are so many different types of ways to get involved at your workplace, within different types of initiatives that are going on everywhere around us. And what we see then is the perception that people have of their own role, which I think is also to some extent influenced by the way and how the energy transition and kind of citizens actions are being communicated also by decision makers it's limiting and we actually also asked citizens like so until 2030 what could you imagine like doing within the energy transition and of course there again also the biggest kind of portions of the the responses were at the the private level or the personal level you But we also see that actually 50% think that beyond the private sphere, they could also get involved through their workplaces, through schools, their children's daycare, etc. A bit fewer could imagine participating in deliberative processes related to the energy transition. And about the same, like around 30% could imagine being part of some kind of citizen-based community organization. And what I want to say with this, I think, first of all, policymakers, first of all, they need to widen their perceptions of citizens'roles in the energy transition. And also, we need to be better at communicating the different types of involvement that there are. Because I think today, yeah, a lot of people are aware of the different things you can do within your household, but there are so many different things to do. And if we kind of make an effort to also make...

• Speaker #1

  these types of involvements more accessible as well perhaps if we ask the same questions in a couple of years perhaps it will change it's a question of appeal as well it has to be appealing it has to be uh i think it has been quite a recurrent theme also in in this podcast the fact that solutions the easiest the simplest the most sustainable they have to be appealing you meaning they have to be convenient, they have to be affordable or even cheap, or cheaper at least than, let's say, the conventional one. They have to be in the middle of the shelf and not on the top part of the shelf in the supermarket. It must be so much easier to be in, let's say, in the environmentally conscious area than it is to be on the polluting side, right? But it's also the question of how... really regulations and how businesses take ownership of those challenges, right? Because, I mean, we had a conversation a long time ago with Monique Goyens, the director of BUC, the consumer organization. She said, yeah, sustainability has to be sexy, but somehow it's also about making sustainability really mainstream and making sure that there is no greenwashing, right? You mentioned greenwashing earlier, and that is also, of course, affecting trust. Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  That's for sure. But I really think that it's an interesting avenue to research and to look at further, to look at these different metrics and how we can build trust for the energy transition because I think if we're going to be able to, if we want to achieve our decarbonization objectives. until 2030, 2040, 2050, we really need to start looking more at the social sides of the energy transition and making all the amazing research and knowledge that there is about this more widespread.

• Speaker #1

  That's also why this podcast exists.

• Speaker #0

  And I think what you're doing then is really important because we're not... Even though we need all of the engineers and the economists, etc., I think other things are needed too for the energy transition. And I think what we are seeing now, like you mentioned, the... so the yellow vest movement uh there has been really big discussions like last summer in germany with the ban on fossil boilers for example also bringing in kind of the the the new eu rules etc into this kind of big controversy and i i just think that looking at those trends also looking at kind of the situation we are facing ahead of the the european elections we're also the the energy and climate transition is being instrumentalized to to some extent by radical and conservative right uh kind of populist parties as a way to say just saying okay it's not going to be socially just it's going to have a bad impact for the the most vulnerable etc etc and instead of you know kind of letting this narrative become the dominant one we need to have and the our decision makers really need to come with an alternative narrative where we can actually talk about so what will the there's something we saw in the project as well that there's really a lack of these kind of concrete objectives in the energy transition that kind of to speak that speak to people's everyday lives because so the energy transition might seem quite abstract but also then you hear okay well it might impact my job it will impact like my you know my wallet etc etc you and how I will be able to move or travel, I think then we need to be like, okay, so what will actually an energy mix with a lot of renewables, what will it actually look like in your everyday life? What will reducing carbon emissions to reach climate neutrality to 2050, what will it actually look like in that person's everyday life? How many people will kind of get... re-skilled or what types of new uh educations will there be what types of new jobs just to kind of make it concrete for people so it's it seems less scary and i think it's in the the way we communicate with citizens so people feel that they are kind of part of it and it's not being done to them but they're and it's being done with it's about uh you

• Speaker #1

  this building a system that is uh what them and not imposed on them and i mean we also had a very interesting conversation about climate communication with the shadmaw a few episodes ago and that if you haven't catch up with it it's really like a master class on climate communication so uh i would definitely encourage our listeners to to catch up with that episode but karen i have to ask you a tricky question now you I mean, your project reached an end at the end of April 2024. So what are the next steps for... the Energy Prospects database and also for you?

• Speaker #0

  Well, I think within the project, I've had really the pleasure to work with such a group of, they were mostly universities, but also some non-governmental actors like ourselves. And I just have to say that now everyone is really excited to use all the data that we have produced, both in the formulation of new projects, but also... to, you know, get this research out there. We have a book that's going to be published soon on energy citizenship in Europe. And I know that there are a lot of academic articles in the making from all of our university partners. So I'm hoping that what we have done within the project will feed into the discussions at the European level, also at the national level, to kind of widen how we look at citizen engagement and involvement in the energy transition. And for myself, I'm quite excited because I'm not sure exactly what I will be doing next, but I have some different ideas. And I think, for example, kind of exploring, for example, the possibilities of working, you know, with the corporate social responsibility and how then, you know, the private sector, for example, could provide additional through their CSR. Financing, which is something we see that a lot of citizen initiatives are in dire need of. If there are avenues to explore there, as well as, for example, big, perhaps, companies with a lot of engineers or, you know, different types of technical competences also within their CSR, how they could perhaps provide that type of support also, for example, to energy communities. It's something that I would be interested in exploring further, as well as looking more at how we can talk about how we can look at and how we can talk about trust for the energy transition moving forward.

• Speaker #1

  That's super exciting indeed and I hope to be able to invite you again in your new hat. So please keep us posted about that. Okay, so now it's time to wrap up. Thank you so much. It's been really an enlightening series and thank you so much to the Energy Prospects project for making it happen. I'm really happy we could really reflect on. those discussions on energy citizenship, climate citizenship, actually being a citizen, what it means in all its nuances. Because, yeah, being an energy consumer is not only about like consuming energy, it's about like the decision making processes. And I mean, your colleague Camille also said that earlier this year in a previous episode. So it's really about building and fostering a narrative that really brings us together and not sets us apart. So it's really about achieving together a sustainable, trustworthy and democratic energy system throughout Europe and throughout the rest of the world. So I really hope these episodes have inspired you to think about your own role in this collective effort. If you are in need for inspiration, check the Energy Prospects database. And big thanks for... from me to the listeners because it's been quite an interesting and fascinating journey. And really thank you again, Karine, and to everyone from the Energy Prospects for your support in making this series possible. So let's keep engaging and discussing and contribute together to a greener, more sustainable and just future. And let's vote at the European elections, right?

• Speaker #0

  Yes. Thank you so much, Marie.

• Speaker #2

  Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Energetic. It's been a pleasure diving deep into the world of sustainability and the just energy transition with some of the most forward thinking mouths out there. I'm Maureen Canales, your host from Policy Consultancy, Next Energy Consumer, and it's been an incredible journey growing this podcast together with you, our knowledgeable and passionate listeners. Since 2021, we've shared countless stories, insights, and ideas over more than 40 episodes, and it's all thanks to your support and enthusiasm. If you've enjoyed our journey so far and want to help us keep the conversation going, why not support us on Patreon? Every bit helps us bring more inspiring content your way. Check out the show notes for the link. And hey, if you're a part of an organization that shares our passion for a sustainable and inclusive energy future, we're excited to explore sponsorship opportunities with you. It's a fantastic way to connect with a dedicated audience and make an even bigger impact together. Shout out to the fantastic Igor Mikhailovich from Podcast Media Factory for his incredible sound design work, making every episode a joy to listen to. If you haven't already, make sure to subscribe to Energetic on your favorite podcast platform. And if you think a friend or a colleague could benefit from our episode, we'd love for you to spread the word. It helps us grow and keep the energy transition conversation alive. Sharing is caring. Follow us on Twitter and LinkedIn to stay engaged and update on all things Energetic. Thanks once again for lending your ears. Until next time.