Description
What would today’s youth do if they were in parliament? Hear from Nina Grmuša and Linus Dolder as they speak powerfully on eco-anxiety, democratic inclusion, and what it takes to create a just climate future. A bold conversation on turning youth activism into real policy change, held at the Youth for Planet Protection preconference event of the European Conference of Presidents of Parliament 2025.
Hosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.
Transcription
Welcome to Europe Explained, brought to you by the Council of Europe. This podcast series offers a unique window into what we're doing to create a fairer, more democratic Europe. Through conversations with experts and frontline workers, we bring you closer to the issues that matter, from fighting discrimination to upholding human rights, from defending democracy to building laws, systems and institutions, that are just, fair and open to all.
Let's move now to our panel our youth-led panel. I'd like to introduce Nina Grmuša. I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly. Nina is a dedicated advocate for youth participation, diversity and environmental sustainability. She is the chairperson of the Advisory Council of the Council of Europe on Youth. She is active in fostering inclusive environments and strengthening collaboration amongst youth civil society organisations. She has extensive experience as a youth worker, trainer and team developer with the European Federation for Intercultural Learning. She brings a broad interdisciplinary perspective on social, political and environmental challenges through her academic studies. And she's currently pursuing a second master's in globalisation, environment and social change. So I would like you to join me in welcoming Nina Grmuša. Before we move to the discussion, I'd just like to introduce our second panelist, Linus Dolder. He is a global activist, I think, a pioneering force in global climate movement. He's the co-founder of Climate Strikes Switzerland, which I think was founded in 2018. He played a key role in mobilising local actions and shaping the national movement. He was the first spokesperson for Fridays for Future in both Switzerland and Germany. And he helped to organize major events, including the first International Strategy Summit and a federal conference with over 1,000 participants. He has also represented the climate movement at... international forums such as COP25 and COP26, advocating for urgent climate action on the global stage. So beyond activism, he also has a background in running digital campaigns. He has been head of digital campaigns for the Member of Parliament Bruno Höhne and as a political advisor to the Member of the European Parliament Michael Blos. So please welcome Linus Dolder. I'm going to invite both our panelists just to make a quick introductory, some quick introductory remarks, because of course the theme of this panel discussion is, if I were a parliamentarian. So perhaps I could start with you, Nina.
Thank you very much. I'm very happy to be here. What does "quick" mean?
Quick means as quick as you like. So I think if we could keep it to two minutes. If you could end with if I were a parliamentarian, that will help us to focus on your contribution. And then I'll open up for further comments and contributions.
OK, so I think if I were a parliamentarian. Well, so I currently I am a young person that decided to do one form of activism. And that is this European advocacy, trying to do it through the institutions. And one very important thing for me is. And for the Advisory Council on Youth is to open this path also and the right to protest and participate democratically in all the different ways that young people do, like Linus as well. So it's two very different paths of trying to advance the same issues, I would say. So I think if I were a parliamentarian, I would emphasise how this triple planetary crisis, challenges and makes challenges to human rights, democracy and all of the social cohesion. I would listen to youth civil society, civil society and these experts on all the different issues that they have to bring. Here I would like to think again the PACE or the Parliamentary Assembly of Council of Europe for last year adopting a resolution that actually creates a mechanism where young people can be engaged and then can advance more thematically all of the different conversations. And I think this coming only a year and a half and well now two years after the Reykjavik Summit really brings together all of these different topics we've been talking about before. I would, well, last year the Committee of Ministers adopted a recommendation that was prepared by the Advisory Council and the Joint Council on Youth on Young People and Climate Action, the first international instrument of this kind, that talks about how important it is to recognise, as we already said, the crucial role that young people have to play when it comes to combating the environmental and climate crisis and then also to protect the rights of environmental right defenders and their position and their right to protest and participate. But how do we do that? We do that by also creating similar mechanisms at a national level, as PACE has already done, and try to create spaces that's already been mentioned before for participation for different stakeholders to actually give their voice and say. So, you know, what makes a country? It's territory, right? It's people and then disagreement that other countries say, yes, we take you into the club, right? So if I would take that to this panel, well, if your territory is sick and polluted and dying, well, you don't really have much. And what makes its people, current and future generations? Current generations of people from our countries and our areas are experiencing. increasing echo anxiety. There are a lot of young people saying how they will choose not to have children because it's unfair to bring them here. And then there are those that are fighting to make it better. And we don't protect them if we don't include them. Well, they are not fighting just for themselves. They're not fighting only for future generations. They're fighting for all of us. Because we said that we had to take action down. Well, action had to be taken before I was born. And it has not been. And then if we talk about the recognition that we do as clubs of countries and spaces, well then we have to recognize that we have to act together to create a healthy environment and inclusion of all of the different stakeholders that we have, have science-based and research-based policies that consult also our civil society and their namely young people. their organizations so i would also encourage you then to just three points to take the recommendation of the committee of ministers and of young people and climate actions and see where in your country and how it can be implemented and in which places it can be acted on to work on recognizing the right to a healthy and clean environment as a fundamental human right and to create mechanisms for more participation and accountability because without lasting policies that we don't of course we all get impatient we don't see a result right away we will not even have any grounds to speak about thank you. Thank you very much Nina. Linus so i could ask you to make your... Sure, so
allow me to start a couple of years earlier six years ago a green wave swept across the world young people had in months built what was a historic movement pressuring governments to take action on the climate crisis. And then on an unlikely day on September 20th in 2019, millions of people all across the globe took to the streets. I was in Germany at the time. Alone in Germany, we were 1.4 million people on the streets demanding of the Merkel government that they would pass a new climate law. So in what was likely the biggest protest since the Berlin Wall came down, we all together put pressure on the government, and actually months later, Germany did pass one of the most ambitious and tough climate laws, setting goals for each year, phasing out coal as early as 2030, expanding renewables, etc., etc. As a result, Germany started meeting its climate targets. At the time, climate was being discussed on every stage, in every talk show, as the most urgent issue of the time. Now, times have changed, and the green wave is frankly no more. We've seen in the European elections, we've seen in the snap federal German elections, we've seen in many other elections across the globe, a rise in anti-climate rhetoric, and across the political spectrum, not only from the furthest stripe, but also adapted from the center. And we've heard loud demands for policy rollbacks. So as the world experiences more climate-related disasters than ever, a dangerous story has become quite popular. That is the story that no one actually really cares about the climate anymore. Stories are powerful and they stand in a, well, mutually dependent relationship with politics. And I think that story that people don't care anymore about the climate is false and it's dangerous for a couple of reasons. I think... Political debates nowadays sort of imply that climate is kind of a feel-good issue for easier times. And as times are tough, the climate's got to wait. And that attitude is frankly not mirrored in general society at all. all, but overwhelming majorities in Germany, in most, well, every European country, in many countries around the world, are very much concerned about the climate crisis still, even if other issues are taking center stage. So while trust and faith that institutions will actually rise to the task and take sufficient responsibility has declined, most people do want their newly elected governments very much to take and implement more climate action. And to me, that isn't surprising at all, because if it were true, people wouldn't actually care about the climate. That would translate to other words, mean they wouldn't care about securing fundamental living conditions on this planet, which I think when worded that way, it's kind of, it becomes becomes apparent how absurd that position would be. So now we see the story is in fact false, but that doesn't make it less dangerous. I think the story that no one cares about the climate is so dangerous for the precise point that it aims at the heart of the fundament for change in societies that we need. Change happens, so I believe, when there is a feeling of togetherness, when there's bonds throughout society around an issue. And when there is a common interest or a shared worry that connects people. And this is exactly what this story that no one cares anymore destroys. When people think my neighbors, my co-workers, my parents... my whoever, don't care, then they're just less likely to take action themselves. When people think they're alone in their worries, they stop imagining a world where we contain the climate crisis with swift action, and let alone demand that action. So only when everyone thinks that the climate crisis isn't important to people, politicians can demand these policy rollbacks that we've seen them demanding with impunity. So, what I would do as a parliamentarian. I would be quite annoying, I guess. I would always and every day repeat these three points to my colleagues. First, people want more climate action, not less. Stop mixing up agreement of any single policy issue where people might be opposed with general approval for or actually the active wish for more climate action that there is. Second, now it's our job, me as an MP speaking, now it's our job to come up with policy that actually deserves or creates societal approval. So talking again about social justice, talking about just redistribution of revenues, etc., etc. Third point, stop telling the story people wouldn't care about the climate crisis. It's, first of all, a blatant lie. And second, or even worse, it's a self- self-fulfilling prophecy that destroys the very fertile soil in society that we need further change to happen. I think that's it for now.
Thank you very much, Linus. And thank you, Nina. I think we'll open up the discussion now. I'd like to invite our floor. Yes, please. First question from the gentleman.
Thank you very much. This was very impressive. I'm Bodo Bahr, the Secretary General of the Baltic Sea Parliamentary Conference and working for the parliaments in this world for 46 years. I was managing the first Enquete Commission of the German Bundestag in the 80s of the past century. And what Linus said, such a wave as you described, we had it also in decades before. We had a huge awareness about climate change in the 80s and the beginning of the 90s, which was running in the Rio process. And at that time, many, many legislative work was done. What reached at the end that, for example, Germany reduced since 1990 the CO2 emissions about 30 percent. So we don't begin at 100 percent. If we want to go to zero, we begin at 70 percent. And today, this discussion shows again and highlights that climate. policy cannot be effective unless young people are actively involved in shaping it. You have the vision, the urgency and the determination to hold us accountable for delivering a sustainable future and therefore the Baltic Sea Parliamentary Conference does not only discuss with the young people. We give them the possibility not to to think you were a parliamentarian, you can with us act like a parliamentarian. We have each year back to back to our annual conference, a Baltic Sea Parliamentary Youth Forum, and don't only discuss with the young people about the core topics of our conference, also about climate change and energy problems, but we give them the possibility to develop recommendations. which we include in our resolutions, which we send to the governments around the Baltic Sea area to implement that and report nine months later what they have done. This is the pressure for the governments to do something. And in that moment, when we do this like this, you don't think you were a parliamentarian. You can include your recommendations in political decisions as if you are a parliamentarian. And we grip it up and we fully recognize all the efforts of the Council of Europe and what you are doing in environmental cooperation with the young people and support this. But I wanted to mention such an example as a possibility to include young people in decision-making processes for the future. Thank you.
Thank you very much for that. Nina, you are involved in decision-making processes. Would you like to comment?
Yes, thank you so much for sharing this great example that shows that young people are involved, there's recommendations, and there is a follow-up, meaning accountability, and that is, I think, a great example of how we can meaningfully involve young people yeah maybe i can give some context so in in council of europe in the youth department we have a co-managed body so it's not just the european theory committee on youth meaning the ministries uh representatives and ministries and youth from member states shaping the policies but we're co-deciding with the advisory council on youth which is 30 young people from civil society organizations and we co-produce program policy budget and so on and whereas like my colleagues you have also participated in the intergovernmental work of the ad hoc multidisciplinary group on environment in Council of Europe, also shaping the strategy and the action plan when it comes to environment. So I think that also in Council of Europe, we can find examples of how civil society, youth civil society organizations can feed this process and then be part of decision making equally. And I think this is something that should be heard. taken also from other places.
Thank you very much. Gianluca.
Yeah, thank you very much. I just wanted to make two quick points. The first one is to say that indeed, this is correct, that we have been talking about these issues for decades. But I think as Nina very clearly said, we were not quite successful to 100% degree. And so we probably, and what is happening now is getting worse. So by the time we keep talking, things are getting, are not getting better, they're getting worse. Maybe it's not to speak in an economist's term is not a steep decline, but it is a decline like this. And I think, you know, I'm not a parliamentarian, far from it, but, you know, I just wanted to reiterate the point that Mr. Hojcik said before. For people to understand the value of countering climate change, you have to make it affordable for them. You know, it cannot be that only rich people can afford electric cars. If electric cars are the solution, that only rich people can afford the pumps to heat the houses. And as a parliamentarian, I would argue that if we all agree that it is important to combat climate change, because that's the starting point. If we don't, then we have a problem. But if we all agree that we need to do something about it, then the answer is, how do you convince the population to come with you? And the way to do that, it has to be to make it affordable. I mean, it cannot be... If you go to the Netherlands, sorry, just because you're here in the front row, but in the Netherlands, you have electric charges at every meter. Well, if you go to other parts of Europe, that's not the case. So how on earth people are going to convert their cars into something better if... They can't go from A to B. And this is really what I think it's needed for a fundamental switch in the mindset of the population, irrespective of the political color of the day, because I like to think that every political group understands that we are facing a crisis.
Nina, what did you think about that?
I would just add a short point, agreeing with this. I think it's not just about making it affordable. I think it's about making it accessible and inclusive, because what... research so far shows us and what different organizations tell us there's different populations affected differently by climate change and if you look at different social issues we can also take this broader more holistic view and see how different groups if we put an intersectional lens if we look at how it affects young people how it affects women it affects women differently climate change and poverty and then if how our indigenous communities are affected or how we sometimes hoping to do better policies we export pollution elsewhere right but it's all part of this much bigger ecosystem so that's why it has to be a systematic approach to looking at how do we both recognize what are the needs and include the voices of those who are affected differently by by these places because these issues in different places because it has to be a solution that is, you know, tailored differently in different places for different groups. And it is a big work, but that's why I think including more research and more stakeholders in this process and committing to it really, and that means with financial resources as well, is a way to do it. And it's long term more for us.
It's about how to do it, isn't it? Linus, you wanted to comment there.
Yes, please. I think, well, frankly, these, the social dimensions and the accessibleness are very much important. As I mentioned before, I think another thing is, I'm noticing that in many climate discourses at the moment, I think there's kind of a notion that, oh, yeah, we, we just continue, but then secretly, we also do a bit of climate, but then we don't really commit to it. But then we secretly we just try to make everything work. That doesn't work out. Let me be clear, that doesn't work out in any scenario, because the changes that we need to do as a society are just too grand to be done secretly behind the back of your population. So I think what's needed is that politicians, well, with policy concepts that are worthy of broad agreement in society. also campaign and advertise for these very policies and that they courageously go forward and present the solutions that they found, which, by the way, exist. I mean, so many of the concepts that we do need do absolutely exist. It's not a lack of concepts that's hindering us. It's not a lack of technology that's hindering us. But it's a lack of... will for a political implementation that's hindering us. So I think, yeah. Come in.
Mr. Husik, let's move to you.
Very brief comment, actually. I'm just going to use the liberty of what I would do if I would be... young activist again. One important thing that I realized, and I feel a bit missing, because you have, so to say, the, what I would say, the young activists, you have the young politicians that are involved in the issue. I think there is a third force that is missing in this, and that's what we call the young entrepreneurs. There is incredible innovation happening. We are in the middle, besides the triple crisis, we are in the middle of really huge disruptions. In a positive way. If you imagine what a smartphone has done to our society, both in good ways and bad ways, no one would imagine 20 years ago that there would be tens of millions of people working as app developers. Now, I think what needs to be, what I would encourage you to bring, so to say, into the movement are exactly these young entrepreneurs. and distilled them with the desire not only for innovation and money, but kind of how they can bring about change. And there is an incredible power in that. And I think that will enable you also to broaden up the political support, that will enable you to broaden up the discourse and bring also the benefit. It's not all about techno solutions. We have to look into really fundamental, deeper things. but without engaging the aspiring economic side of the society. I think that's one of the weaknesses that I would recommend to address.
We're running somewhat short of time, unfortunately. If you allow me, and if there are no further comments from the floor, perhaps I can take just a couple of moments to review some of the takeaways. It's a pity we didn't really get into the area. of intergenerational responsibility, I would have liked to have followed up on Nina's initial comments, but perhaps that's a subject for a separate discussion. We've heard that we need to find the right mix in these issues, that we need to embrace change, we need to bring in entrepreneurs, we need to ensure that there's social justice, and we need to be competitive, because that's where our priorities are now. But it seems to me that the prime takeaway from this is the need to find that political will. And perhaps that's the sort of the last comment that I can leave in everybody's minds. We as the Council of Europe obviously have the standards. I think Gianluca presented those in a very, very concise and powerful way. We basically have, if I can find my notes on that, there are four main points. Sorry, the papers, I took them apart. So we've got the recommendation on young people and climate change. We've got the new treaty on combating environmental crimes, which is up for adoption in May by the Parliamentary Assembly. We've also got the Council of Europe's strategy on the environment and the action plan. And we'll have a first report on that at the end of 2025. Look forward to that. And then there's the fourth area, of course, which is the possibility for new legally enforceable right to environmental protection. So a lot still to be done, but we're making progress. So I'd like to leave you on that positive note. And thank you very much for your participation today.
If you enjoyed this discussion and wish to explore more topics, be sure to check out the episodes of Europe Explained. You can learn more about the Council of Europe and its initiatives at our website, coe.org. And don't forget to follow us on social media for the latest updates and insights. You can find us on X, LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram.
Description
What would today’s youth do if they were in parliament? Hear from Nina Grmuša and Linus Dolder as they speak powerfully on eco-anxiety, democratic inclusion, and what it takes to create a just climate future. A bold conversation on turning youth activism into real policy change, held at the Youth for Planet Protection preconference event of the European Conference of Presidents of Parliament 2025.
Hosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.
Transcription
Welcome to Europe Explained, brought to you by the Council of Europe. This podcast series offers a unique window into what we're doing to create a fairer, more democratic Europe. Through conversations with experts and frontline workers, we bring you closer to the issues that matter, from fighting discrimination to upholding human rights, from defending democracy to building laws, systems and institutions, that are just, fair and open to all.
Let's move now to our panel our youth-led panel. I'd like to introduce Nina Grmuša. I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly. Nina is a dedicated advocate for youth participation, diversity and environmental sustainability. She is the chairperson of the Advisory Council of the Council of Europe on Youth. She is active in fostering inclusive environments and strengthening collaboration amongst youth civil society organisations. She has extensive experience as a youth worker, trainer and team developer with the European Federation for Intercultural Learning. She brings a broad interdisciplinary perspective on social, political and environmental challenges through her academic studies. And she's currently pursuing a second master's in globalisation, environment and social change. So I would like you to join me in welcoming Nina Grmuša. Before we move to the discussion, I'd just like to introduce our second panelist, Linus Dolder. He is a global activist, I think, a pioneering force in global climate movement. He's the co-founder of Climate Strikes Switzerland, which I think was founded in 2018. He played a key role in mobilising local actions and shaping the national movement. He was the first spokesperson for Fridays for Future in both Switzerland and Germany. And he helped to organize major events, including the first International Strategy Summit and a federal conference with over 1,000 participants. He has also represented the climate movement at... international forums such as COP25 and COP26, advocating for urgent climate action on the global stage. So beyond activism, he also has a background in running digital campaigns. He has been head of digital campaigns for the Member of Parliament Bruno Höhne and as a political advisor to the Member of the European Parliament Michael Blos. So please welcome Linus Dolder. I'm going to invite both our panelists just to make a quick introductory, some quick introductory remarks, because of course the theme of this panel discussion is, if I were a parliamentarian. So perhaps I could start with you, Nina.
Thank you very much. I'm very happy to be here. What does "quick" mean?
Quick means as quick as you like. So I think if we could keep it to two minutes. If you could end with if I were a parliamentarian, that will help us to focus on your contribution. And then I'll open up for further comments and contributions.
OK, so I think if I were a parliamentarian. Well, so I currently I am a young person that decided to do one form of activism. And that is this European advocacy, trying to do it through the institutions. And one very important thing for me is. And for the Advisory Council on Youth is to open this path also and the right to protest and participate democratically in all the different ways that young people do, like Linus as well. So it's two very different paths of trying to advance the same issues, I would say. So I think if I were a parliamentarian, I would emphasise how this triple planetary crisis, challenges and makes challenges to human rights, democracy and all of the social cohesion. I would listen to youth civil society, civil society and these experts on all the different issues that they have to bring. Here I would like to think again the PACE or the Parliamentary Assembly of Council of Europe for last year adopting a resolution that actually creates a mechanism where young people can be engaged and then can advance more thematically all of the different conversations. And I think this coming only a year and a half and well now two years after the Reykjavik Summit really brings together all of these different topics we've been talking about before. I would, well, last year the Committee of Ministers adopted a recommendation that was prepared by the Advisory Council and the Joint Council on Youth on Young People and Climate Action, the first international instrument of this kind, that talks about how important it is to recognise, as we already said, the crucial role that young people have to play when it comes to combating the environmental and climate crisis and then also to protect the rights of environmental right defenders and their position and their right to protest and participate. But how do we do that? We do that by also creating similar mechanisms at a national level, as PACE has already done, and try to create spaces that's already been mentioned before for participation for different stakeholders to actually give their voice and say. So, you know, what makes a country? It's territory, right? It's people and then disagreement that other countries say, yes, we take you into the club, right? So if I would take that to this panel, well, if your territory is sick and polluted and dying, well, you don't really have much. And what makes its people, current and future generations? Current generations of people from our countries and our areas are experiencing. increasing echo anxiety. There are a lot of young people saying how they will choose not to have children because it's unfair to bring them here. And then there are those that are fighting to make it better. And we don't protect them if we don't include them. Well, they are not fighting just for themselves. They're not fighting only for future generations. They're fighting for all of us. Because we said that we had to take action down. Well, action had to be taken before I was born. And it has not been. And then if we talk about the recognition that we do as clubs of countries and spaces, well then we have to recognize that we have to act together to create a healthy environment and inclusion of all of the different stakeholders that we have, have science-based and research-based policies that consult also our civil society and their namely young people. their organizations so i would also encourage you then to just three points to take the recommendation of the committee of ministers and of young people and climate actions and see where in your country and how it can be implemented and in which places it can be acted on to work on recognizing the right to a healthy and clean environment as a fundamental human right and to create mechanisms for more participation and accountability because without lasting policies that we don't of course we all get impatient we don't see a result right away we will not even have any grounds to speak about thank you. Thank you very much Nina. Linus so i could ask you to make your... Sure, so
allow me to start a couple of years earlier six years ago a green wave swept across the world young people had in months built what was a historic movement pressuring governments to take action on the climate crisis. And then on an unlikely day on September 20th in 2019, millions of people all across the globe took to the streets. I was in Germany at the time. Alone in Germany, we were 1.4 million people on the streets demanding of the Merkel government that they would pass a new climate law. So in what was likely the biggest protest since the Berlin Wall came down, we all together put pressure on the government, and actually months later, Germany did pass one of the most ambitious and tough climate laws, setting goals for each year, phasing out coal as early as 2030, expanding renewables, etc., etc. As a result, Germany started meeting its climate targets. At the time, climate was being discussed on every stage, in every talk show, as the most urgent issue of the time. Now, times have changed, and the green wave is frankly no more. We've seen in the European elections, we've seen in the snap federal German elections, we've seen in many other elections across the globe, a rise in anti-climate rhetoric, and across the political spectrum, not only from the furthest stripe, but also adapted from the center. And we've heard loud demands for policy rollbacks. So as the world experiences more climate-related disasters than ever, a dangerous story has become quite popular. That is the story that no one actually really cares about the climate anymore. Stories are powerful and they stand in a, well, mutually dependent relationship with politics. And I think that story that people don't care anymore about the climate is false and it's dangerous for a couple of reasons. I think... Political debates nowadays sort of imply that climate is kind of a feel-good issue for easier times. And as times are tough, the climate's got to wait. And that attitude is frankly not mirrored in general society at all. all, but overwhelming majorities in Germany, in most, well, every European country, in many countries around the world, are very much concerned about the climate crisis still, even if other issues are taking center stage. So while trust and faith that institutions will actually rise to the task and take sufficient responsibility has declined, most people do want their newly elected governments very much to take and implement more climate action. And to me, that isn't surprising at all, because if it were true, people wouldn't actually care about the climate. That would translate to other words, mean they wouldn't care about securing fundamental living conditions on this planet, which I think when worded that way, it's kind of, it becomes becomes apparent how absurd that position would be. So now we see the story is in fact false, but that doesn't make it less dangerous. I think the story that no one cares about the climate is so dangerous for the precise point that it aims at the heart of the fundament for change in societies that we need. Change happens, so I believe, when there is a feeling of togetherness, when there's bonds throughout society around an issue. And when there is a common interest or a shared worry that connects people. And this is exactly what this story that no one cares anymore destroys. When people think my neighbors, my co-workers, my parents... my whoever, don't care, then they're just less likely to take action themselves. When people think they're alone in their worries, they stop imagining a world where we contain the climate crisis with swift action, and let alone demand that action. So only when everyone thinks that the climate crisis isn't important to people, politicians can demand these policy rollbacks that we've seen them demanding with impunity. So, what I would do as a parliamentarian. I would be quite annoying, I guess. I would always and every day repeat these three points to my colleagues. First, people want more climate action, not less. Stop mixing up agreement of any single policy issue where people might be opposed with general approval for or actually the active wish for more climate action that there is. Second, now it's our job, me as an MP speaking, now it's our job to come up with policy that actually deserves or creates societal approval. So talking again about social justice, talking about just redistribution of revenues, etc., etc. Third point, stop telling the story people wouldn't care about the climate crisis. It's, first of all, a blatant lie. And second, or even worse, it's a self- self-fulfilling prophecy that destroys the very fertile soil in society that we need further change to happen. I think that's it for now.
Thank you very much, Linus. And thank you, Nina. I think we'll open up the discussion now. I'd like to invite our floor. Yes, please. First question from the gentleman.
Thank you very much. This was very impressive. I'm Bodo Bahr, the Secretary General of the Baltic Sea Parliamentary Conference and working for the parliaments in this world for 46 years. I was managing the first Enquete Commission of the German Bundestag in the 80s of the past century. And what Linus said, such a wave as you described, we had it also in decades before. We had a huge awareness about climate change in the 80s and the beginning of the 90s, which was running in the Rio process. And at that time, many, many legislative work was done. What reached at the end that, for example, Germany reduced since 1990 the CO2 emissions about 30 percent. So we don't begin at 100 percent. If we want to go to zero, we begin at 70 percent. And today, this discussion shows again and highlights that climate. policy cannot be effective unless young people are actively involved in shaping it. You have the vision, the urgency and the determination to hold us accountable for delivering a sustainable future and therefore the Baltic Sea Parliamentary Conference does not only discuss with the young people. We give them the possibility not to to think you were a parliamentarian, you can with us act like a parliamentarian. We have each year back to back to our annual conference, a Baltic Sea Parliamentary Youth Forum, and don't only discuss with the young people about the core topics of our conference, also about climate change and energy problems, but we give them the possibility to develop recommendations. which we include in our resolutions, which we send to the governments around the Baltic Sea area to implement that and report nine months later what they have done. This is the pressure for the governments to do something. And in that moment, when we do this like this, you don't think you were a parliamentarian. You can include your recommendations in political decisions as if you are a parliamentarian. And we grip it up and we fully recognize all the efforts of the Council of Europe and what you are doing in environmental cooperation with the young people and support this. But I wanted to mention such an example as a possibility to include young people in decision-making processes for the future. Thank you.
Thank you very much for that. Nina, you are involved in decision-making processes. Would you like to comment?
Yes, thank you so much for sharing this great example that shows that young people are involved, there's recommendations, and there is a follow-up, meaning accountability, and that is, I think, a great example of how we can meaningfully involve young people yeah maybe i can give some context so in in council of europe in the youth department we have a co-managed body so it's not just the european theory committee on youth meaning the ministries uh representatives and ministries and youth from member states shaping the policies but we're co-deciding with the advisory council on youth which is 30 young people from civil society organizations and we co-produce program policy budget and so on and whereas like my colleagues you have also participated in the intergovernmental work of the ad hoc multidisciplinary group on environment in Council of Europe, also shaping the strategy and the action plan when it comes to environment. So I think that also in Council of Europe, we can find examples of how civil society, youth civil society organizations can feed this process and then be part of decision making equally. And I think this is something that should be heard. taken also from other places.
Thank you very much. Gianluca.
Yeah, thank you very much. I just wanted to make two quick points. The first one is to say that indeed, this is correct, that we have been talking about these issues for decades. But I think as Nina very clearly said, we were not quite successful to 100% degree. And so we probably, and what is happening now is getting worse. So by the time we keep talking, things are getting, are not getting better, they're getting worse. Maybe it's not to speak in an economist's term is not a steep decline, but it is a decline like this. And I think, you know, I'm not a parliamentarian, far from it, but, you know, I just wanted to reiterate the point that Mr. Hojcik said before. For people to understand the value of countering climate change, you have to make it affordable for them. You know, it cannot be that only rich people can afford electric cars. If electric cars are the solution, that only rich people can afford the pumps to heat the houses. And as a parliamentarian, I would argue that if we all agree that it is important to combat climate change, because that's the starting point. If we don't, then we have a problem. But if we all agree that we need to do something about it, then the answer is, how do you convince the population to come with you? And the way to do that, it has to be to make it affordable. I mean, it cannot be... If you go to the Netherlands, sorry, just because you're here in the front row, but in the Netherlands, you have electric charges at every meter. Well, if you go to other parts of Europe, that's not the case. So how on earth people are going to convert their cars into something better if... They can't go from A to B. And this is really what I think it's needed for a fundamental switch in the mindset of the population, irrespective of the political color of the day, because I like to think that every political group understands that we are facing a crisis.
Nina, what did you think about that?
I would just add a short point, agreeing with this. I think it's not just about making it affordable. I think it's about making it accessible and inclusive, because what... research so far shows us and what different organizations tell us there's different populations affected differently by climate change and if you look at different social issues we can also take this broader more holistic view and see how different groups if we put an intersectional lens if we look at how it affects young people how it affects women it affects women differently climate change and poverty and then if how our indigenous communities are affected or how we sometimes hoping to do better policies we export pollution elsewhere right but it's all part of this much bigger ecosystem so that's why it has to be a systematic approach to looking at how do we both recognize what are the needs and include the voices of those who are affected differently by by these places because these issues in different places because it has to be a solution that is, you know, tailored differently in different places for different groups. And it is a big work, but that's why I think including more research and more stakeholders in this process and committing to it really, and that means with financial resources as well, is a way to do it. And it's long term more for us.
It's about how to do it, isn't it? Linus, you wanted to comment there.
Yes, please. I think, well, frankly, these, the social dimensions and the accessibleness are very much important. As I mentioned before, I think another thing is, I'm noticing that in many climate discourses at the moment, I think there's kind of a notion that, oh, yeah, we, we just continue, but then secretly, we also do a bit of climate, but then we don't really commit to it. But then we secretly we just try to make everything work. That doesn't work out. Let me be clear, that doesn't work out in any scenario, because the changes that we need to do as a society are just too grand to be done secretly behind the back of your population. So I think what's needed is that politicians, well, with policy concepts that are worthy of broad agreement in society. also campaign and advertise for these very policies and that they courageously go forward and present the solutions that they found, which, by the way, exist. I mean, so many of the concepts that we do need do absolutely exist. It's not a lack of concepts that's hindering us. It's not a lack of technology that's hindering us. But it's a lack of... will for a political implementation that's hindering us. So I think, yeah. Come in.
Mr. Husik, let's move to you.
Very brief comment, actually. I'm just going to use the liberty of what I would do if I would be... young activist again. One important thing that I realized, and I feel a bit missing, because you have, so to say, the, what I would say, the young activists, you have the young politicians that are involved in the issue. I think there is a third force that is missing in this, and that's what we call the young entrepreneurs. There is incredible innovation happening. We are in the middle, besides the triple crisis, we are in the middle of really huge disruptions. In a positive way. If you imagine what a smartphone has done to our society, both in good ways and bad ways, no one would imagine 20 years ago that there would be tens of millions of people working as app developers. Now, I think what needs to be, what I would encourage you to bring, so to say, into the movement are exactly these young entrepreneurs. and distilled them with the desire not only for innovation and money, but kind of how they can bring about change. And there is an incredible power in that. And I think that will enable you also to broaden up the political support, that will enable you to broaden up the discourse and bring also the benefit. It's not all about techno solutions. We have to look into really fundamental, deeper things. but without engaging the aspiring economic side of the society. I think that's one of the weaknesses that I would recommend to address.
We're running somewhat short of time, unfortunately. If you allow me, and if there are no further comments from the floor, perhaps I can take just a couple of moments to review some of the takeaways. It's a pity we didn't really get into the area. of intergenerational responsibility, I would have liked to have followed up on Nina's initial comments, but perhaps that's a subject for a separate discussion. We've heard that we need to find the right mix in these issues, that we need to embrace change, we need to bring in entrepreneurs, we need to ensure that there's social justice, and we need to be competitive, because that's where our priorities are now. But it seems to me that the prime takeaway from this is the need to find that political will. And perhaps that's the sort of the last comment that I can leave in everybody's minds. We as the Council of Europe obviously have the standards. I think Gianluca presented those in a very, very concise and powerful way. We basically have, if I can find my notes on that, there are four main points. Sorry, the papers, I took them apart. So we've got the recommendation on young people and climate change. We've got the new treaty on combating environmental crimes, which is up for adoption in May by the Parliamentary Assembly. We've also got the Council of Europe's strategy on the environment and the action plan. And we'll have a first report on that at the end of 2025. Look forward to that. And then there's the fourth area, of course, which is the possibility for new legally enforceable right to environmental protection. So a lot still to be done, but we're making progress. So I'd like to leave you on that positive note. And thank you very much for your participation today.
If you enjoyed this discussion and wish to explore more topics, be sure to check out the episodes of Europe Explained. You can learn more about the Council of Europe and its initiatives at our website, coe.org. And don't forget to follow us on social media for the latest updates and insights. You can find us on X, LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram.
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What would today’s youth do if they were in parliament? Hear from Nina Grmuša and Linus Dolder as they speak powerfully on eco-anxiety, democratic inclusion, and what it takes to create a just climate future. A bold conversation on turning youth activism into real policy change, held at the Youth for Planet Protection preconference event of the European Conference of Presidents of Parliament 2025.
Hosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.
Transcription
Welcome to Europe Explained, brought to you by the Council of Europe. This podcast series offers a unique window into what we're doing to create a fairer, more democratic Europe. Through conversations with experts and frontline workers, we bring you closer to the issues that matter, from fighting discrimination to upholding human rights, from defending democracy to building laws, systems and institutions, that are just, fair and open to all.
Let's move now to our panel our youth-led panel. I'd like to introduce Nina Grmuša. I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly. Nina is a dedicated advocate for youth participation, diversity and environmental sustainability. She is the chairperson of the Advisory Council of the Council of Europe on Youth. She is active in fostering inclusive environments and strengthening collaboration amongst youth civil society organisations. She has extensive experience as a youth worker, trainer and team developer with the European Federation for Intercultural Learning. She brings a broad interdisciplinary perspective on social, political and environmental challenges through her academic studies. And she's currently pursuing a second master's in globalisation, environment and social change. So I would like you to join me in welcoming Nina Grmuša. Before we move to the discussion, I'd just like to introduce our second panelist, Linus Dolder. He is a global activist, I think, a pioneering force in global climate movement. He's the co-founder of Climate Strikes Switzerland, which I think was founded in 2018. He played a key role in mobilising local actions and shaping the national movement. He was the first spokesperson for Fridays for Future in both Switzerland and Germany. And he helped to organize major events, including the first International Strategy Summit and a federal conference with over 1,000 participants. He has also represented the climate movement at... international forums such as COP25 and COP26, advocating for urgent climate action on the global stage. So beyond activism, he also has a background in running digital campaigns. He has been head of digital campaigns for the Member of Parliament Bruno Höhne and as a political advisor to the Member of the European Parliament Michael Blos. So please welcome Linus Dolder. I'm going to invite both our panelists just to make a quick introductory, some quick introductory remarks, because of course the theme of this panel discussion is, if I were a parliamentarian. So perhaps I could start with you, Nina.
Thank you very much. I'm very happy to be here. What does "quick" mean?
Quick means as quick as you like. So I think if we could keep it to two minutes. If you could end with if I were a parliamentarian, that will help us to focus on your contribution. And then I'll open up for further comments and contributions.
OK, so I think if I were a parliamentarian. Well, so I currently I am a young person that decided to do one form of activism. And that is this European advocacy, trying to do it through the institutions. And one very important thing for me is. And for the Advisory Council on Youth is to open this path also and the right to protest and participate democratically in all the different ways that young people do, like Linus as well. So it's two very different paths of trying to advance the same issues, I would say. So I think if I were a parliamentarian, I would emphasise how this triple planetary crisis, challenges and makes challenges to human rights, democracy and all of the social cohesion. I would listen to youth civil society, civil society and these experts on all the different issues that they have to bring. Here I would like to think again the PACE or the Parliamentary Assembly of Council of Europe for last year adopting a resolution that actually creates a mechanism where young people can be engaged and then can advance more thematically all of the different conversations. And I think this coming only a year and a half and well now two years after the Reykjavik Summit really brings together all of these different topics we've been talking about before. I would, well, last year the Committee of Ministers adopted a recommendation that was prepared by the Advisory Council and the Joint Council on Youth on Young People and Climate Action, the first international instrument of this kind, that talks about how important it is to recognise, as we already said, the crucial role that young people have to play when it comes to combating the environmental and climate crisis and then also to protect the rights of environmental right defenders and their position and their right to protest and participate. But how do we do that? We do that by also creating similar mechanisms at a national level, as PACE has already done, and try to create spaces that's already been mentioned before for participation for different stakeholders to actually give their voice and say. So, you know, what makes a country? It's territory, right? It's people and then disagreement that other countries say, yes, we take you into the club, right? So if I would take that to this panel, well, if your territory is sick and polluted and dying, well, you don't really have much. And what makes its people, current and future generations? Current generations of people from our countries and our areas are experiencing. increasing echo anxiety. There are a lot of young people saying how they will choose not to have children because it's unfair to bring them here. And then there are those that are fighting to make it better. And we don't protect them if we don't include them. Well, they are not fighting just for themselves. They're not fighting only for future generations. They're fighting for all of us. Because we said that we had to take action down. Well, action had to be taken before I was born. And it has not been. And then if we talk about the recognition that we do as clubs of countries and spaces, well then we have to recognize that we have to act together to create a healthy environment and inclusion of all of the different stakeholders that we have, have science-based and research-based policies that consult also our civil society and their namely young people. their organizations so i would also encourage you then to just three points to take the recommendation of the committee of ministers and of young people and climate actions and see where in your country and how it can be implemented and in which places it can be acted on to work on recognizing the right to a healthy and clean environment as a fundamental human right and to create mechanisms for more participation and accountability because without lasting policies that we don't of course we all get impatient we don't see a result right away we will not even have any grounds to speak about thank you. Thank you very much Nina. Linus so i could ask you to make your... Sure, so
allow me to start a couple of years earlier six years ago a green wave swept across the world young people had in months built what was a historic movement pressuring governments to take action on the climate crisis. And then on an unlikely day on September 20th in 2019, millions of people all across the globe took to the streets. I was in Germany at the time. Alone in Germany, we were 1.4 million people on the streets demanding of the Merkel government that they would pass a new climate law. So in what was likely the biggest protest since the Berlin Wall came down, we all together put pressure on the government, and actually months later, Germany did pass one of the most ambitious and tough climate laws, setting goals for each year, phasing out coal as early as 2030, expanding renewables, etc., etc. As a result, Germany started meeting its climate targets. At the time, climate was being discussed on every stage, in every talk show, as the most urgent issue of the time. Now, times have changed, and the green wave is frankly no more. We've seen in the European elections, we've seen in the snap federal German elections, we've seen in many other elections across the globe, a rise in anti-climate rhetoric, and across the political spectrum, not only from the furthest stripe, but also adapted from the center. And we've heard loud demands for policy rollbacks. So as the world experiences more climate-related disasters than ever, a dangerous story has become quite popular. That is the story that no one actually really cares about the climate anymore. Stories are powerful and they stand in a, well, mutually dependent relationship with politics. And I think that story that people don't care anymore about the climate is false and it's dangerous for a couple of reasons. I think... Political debates nowadays sort of imply that climate is kind of a feel-good issue for easier times. And as times are tough, the climate's got to wait. And that attitude is frankly not mirrored in general society at all. all, but overwhelming majorities in Germany, in most, well, every European country, in many countries around the world, are very much concerned about the climate crisis still, even if other issues are taking center stage. So while trust and faith that institutions will actually rise to the task and take sufficient responsibility has declined, most people do want their newly elected governments very much to take and implement more climate action. And to me, that isn't surprising at all, because if it were true, people wouldn't actually care about the climate. That would translate to other words, mean they wouldn't care about securing fundamental living conditions on this planet, which I think when worded that way, it's kind of, it becomes becomes apparent how absurd that position would be. So now we see the story is in fact false, but that doesn't make it less dangerous. I think the story that no one cares about the climate is so dangerous for the precise point that it aims at the heart of the fundament for change in societies that we need. Change happens, so I believe, when there is a feeling of togetherness, when there's bonds throughout society around an issue. And when there is a common interest or a shared worry that connects people. And this is exactly what this story that no one cares anymore destroys. When people think my neighbors, my co-workers, my parents... my whoever, don't care, then they're just less likely to take action themselves. When people think they're alone in their worries, they stop imagining a world where we contain the climate crisis with swift action, and let alone demand that action. So only when everyone thinks that the climate crisis isn't important to people, politicians can demand these policy rollbacks that we've seen them demanding with impunity. So, what I would do as a parliamentarian. I would be quite annoying, I guess. I would always and every day repeat these three points to my colleagues. First, people want more climate action, not less. Stop mixing up agreement of any single policy issue where people might be opposed with general approval for or actually the active wish for more climate action that there is. Second, now it's our job, me as an MP speaking, now it's our job to come up with policy that actually deserves or creates societal approval. So talking again about social justice, talking about just redistribution of revenues, etc., etc. Third point, stop telling the story people wouldn't care about the climate crisis. It's, first of all, a blatant lie. And second, or even worse, it's a self- self-fulfilling prophecy that destroys the very fertile soil in society that we need further change to happen. I think that's it for now.
Thank you very much, Linus. And thank you, Nina. I think we'll open up the discussion now. I'd like to invite our floor. Yes, please. First question from the gentleman.
Thank you very much. This was very impressive. I'm Bodo Bahr, the Secretary General of the Baltic Sea Parliamentary Conference and working for the parliaments in this world for 46 years. I was managing the first Enquete Commission of the German Bundestag in the 80s of the past century. And what Linus said, such a wave as you described, we had it also in decades before. We had a huge awareness about climate change in the 80s and the beginning of the 90s, which was running in the Rio process. And at that time, many, many legislative work was done. What reached at the end that, for example, Germany reduced since 1990 the CO2 emissions about 30 percent. So we don't begin at 100 percent. If we want to go to zero, we begin at 70 percent. And today, this discussion shows again and highlights that climate. policy cannot be effective unless young people are actively involved in shaping it. You have the vision, the urgency and the determination to hold us accountable for delivering a sustainable future and therefore the Baltic Sea Parliamentary Conference does not only discuss with the young people. We give them the possibility not to to think you were a parliamentarian, you can with us act like a parliamentarian. We have each year back to back to our annual conference, a Baltic Sea Parliamentary Youth Forum, and don't only discuss with the young people about the core topics of our conference, also about climate change and energy problems, but we give them the possibility to develop recommendations. which we include in our resolutions, which we send to the governments around the Baltic Sea area to implement that and report nine months later what they have done. This is the pressure for the governments to do something. And in that moment, when we do this like this, you don't think you were a parliamentarian. You can include your recommendations in political decisions as if you are a parliamentarian. And we grip it up and we fully recognize all the efforts of the Council of Europe and what you are doing in environmental cooperation with the young people and support this. But I wanted to mention such an example as a possibility to include young people in decision-making processes for the future. Thank you.
Thank you very much for that. Nina, you are involved in decision-making processes. Would you like to comment?
Yes, thank you so much for sharing this great example that shows that young people are involved, there's recommendations, and there is a follow-up, meaning accountability, and that is, I think, a great example of how we can meaningfully involve young people yeah maybe i can give some context so in in council of europe in the youth department we have a co-managed body so it's not just the european theory committee on youth meaning the ministries uh representatives and ministries and youth from member states shaping the policies but we're co-deciding with the advisory council on youth which is 30 young people from civil society organizations and we co-produce program policy budget and so on and whereas like my colleagues you have also participated in the intergovernmental work of the ad hoc multidisciplinary group on environment in Council of Europe, also shaping the strategy and the action plan when it comes to environment. So I think that also in Council of Europe, we can find examples of how civil society, youth civil society organizations can feed this process and then be part of decision making equally. And I think this is something that should be heard. taken also from other places.
Thank you very much. Gianluca.
Yeah, thank you very much. I just wanted to make two quick points. The first one is to say that indeed, this is correct, that we have been talking about these issues for decades. But I think as Nina very clearly said, we were not quite successful to 100% degree. And so we probably, and what is happening now is getting worse. So by the time we keep talking, things are getting, are not getting better, they're getting worse. Maybe it's not to speak in an economist's term is not a steep decline, but it is a decline like this. And I think, you know, I'm not a parliamentarian, far from it, but, you know, I just wanted to reiterate the point that Mr. Hojcik said before. For people to understand the value of countering climate change, you have to make it affordable for them. You know, it cannot be that only rich people can afford electric cars. If electric cars are the solution, that only rich people can afford the pumps to heat the houses. And as a parliamentarian, I would argue that if we all agree that it is important to combat climate change, because that's the starting point. If we don't, then we have a problem. But if we all agree that we need to do something about it, then the answer is, how do you convince the population to come with you? And the way to do that, it has to be to make it affordable. I mean, it cannot be... If you go to the Netherlands, sorry, just because you're here in the front row, but in the Netherlands, you have electric charges at every meter. Well, if you go to other parts of Europe, that's not the case. So how on earth people are going to convert their cars into something better if... They can't go from A to B. And this is really what I think it's needed for a fundamental switch in the mindset of the population, irrespective of the political color of the day, because I like to think that every political group understands that we are facing a crisis.
Nina, what did you think about that?
I would just add a short point, agreeing with this. I think it's not just about making it affordable. I think it's about making it accessible and inclusive, because what... research so far shows us and what different organizations tell us there's different populations affected differently by climate change and if you look at different social issues we can also take this broader more holistic view and see how different groups if we put an intersectional lens if we look at how it affects young people how it affects women it affects women differently climate change and poverty and then if how our indigenous communities are affected or how we sometimes hoping to do better policies we export pollution elsewhere right but it's all part of this much bigger ecosystem so that's why it has to be a systematic approach to looking at how do we both recognize what are the needs and include the voices of those who are affected differently by by these places because these issues in different places because it has to be a solution that is, you know, tailored differently in different places for different groups. And it is a big work, but that's why I think including more research and more stakeholders in this process and committing to it really, and that means with financial resources as well, is a way to do it. And it's long term more for us.
It's about how to do it, isn't it? Linus, you wanted to comment there.
Yes, please. I think, well, frankly, these, the social dimensions and the accessibleness are very much important. As I mentioned before, I think another thing is, I'm noticing that in many climate discourses at the moment, I think there's kind of a notion that, oh, yeah, we, we just continue, but then secretly, we also do a bit of climate, but then we don't really commit to it. But then we secretly we just try to make everything work. That doesn't work out. Let me be clear, that doesn't work out in any scenario, because the changes that we need to do as a society are just too grand to be done secretly behind the back of your population. So I think what's needed is that politicians, well, with policy concepts that are worthy of broad agreement in society. also campaign and advertise for these very policies and that they courageously go forward and present the solutions that they found, which, by the way, exist. I mean, so many of the concepts that we do need do absolutely exist. It's not a lack of concepts that's hindering us. It's not a lack of technology that's hindering us. But it's a lack of... will for a political implementation that's hindering us. So I think, yeah. Come in.
Mr. Husik, let's move to you.
Very brief comment, actually. I'm just going to use the liberty of what I would do if I would be... young activist again. One important thing that I realized, and I feel a bit missing, because you have, so to say, the, what I would say, the young activists, you have the young politicians that are involved in the issue. I think there is a third force that is missing in this, and that's what we call the young entrepreneurs. There is incredible innovation happening. We are in the middle, besides the triple crisis, we are in the middle of really huge disruptions. In a positive way. If you imagine what a smartphone has done to our society, both in good ways and bad ways, no one would imagine 20 years ago that there would be tens of millions of people working as app developers. Now, I think what needs to be, what I would encourage you to bring, so to say, into the movement are exactly these young entrepreneurs. and distilled them with the desire not only for innovation and money, but kind of how they can bring about change. And there is an incredible power in that. And I think that will enable you also to broaden up the political support, that will enable you to broaden up the discourse and bring also the benefit. It's not all about techno solutions. We have to look into really fundamental, deeper things. but without engaging the aspiring economic side of the society. I think that's one of the weaknesses that I would recommend to address.
We're running somewhat short of time, unfortunately. If you allow me, and if there are no further comments from the floor, perhaps I can take just a couple of moments to review some of the takeaways. It's a pity we didn't really get into the area. of intergenerational responsibility, I would have liked to have followed up on Nina's initial comments, but perhaps that's a subject for a separate discussion. We've heard that we need to find the right mix in these issues, that we need to embrace change, we need to bring in entrepreneurs, we need to ensure that there's social justice, and we need to be competitive, because that's where our priorities are now. But it seems to me that the prime takeaway from this is the need to find that political will. And perhaps that's the sort of the last comment that I can leave in everybody's minds. We as the Council of Europe obviously have the standards. I think Gianluca presented those in a very, very concise and powerful way. We basically have, if I can find my notes on that, there are four main points. Sorry, the papers, I took them apart. So we've got the recommendation on young people and climate change. We've got the new treaty on combating environmental crimes, which is up for adoption in May by the Parliamentary Assembly. We've also got the Council of Europe's strategy on the environment and the action plan. And we'll have a first report on that at the end of 2025. Look forward to that. And then there's the fourth area, of course, which is the possibility for new legally enforceable right to environmental protection. So a lot still to be done, but we're making progress. So I'd like to leave you on that positive note. And thank you very much for your participation today.
If you enjoyed this discussion and wish to explore more topics, be sure to check out the episodes of Europe Explained. You can learn more about the Council of Europe and its initiatives at our website, coe.org. And don't forget to follow us on social media for the latest updates and insights. You can find us on X, LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram.
Description
What would today’s youth do if they were in parliament? Hear from Nina Grmuša and Linus Dolder as they speak powerfully on eco-anxiety, democratic inclusion, and what it takes to create a just climate future. A bold conversation on turning youth activism into real policy change, held at the Youth for Planet Protection preconference event of the European Conference of Presidents of Parliament 2025.
Hosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.
Transcription
Welcome to Europe Explained, brought to you by the Council of Europe. This podcast series offers a unique window into what we're doing to create a fairer, more democratic Europe. Through conversations with experts and frontline workers, we bring you closer to the issues that matter, from fighting discrimination to upholding human rights, from defending democracy to building laws, systems and institutions, that are just, fair and open to all.
Let's move now to our panel our youth-led panel. I'd like to introduce Nina Grmuša. I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly. Nina is a dedicated advocate for youth participation, diversity and environmental sustainability. She is the chairperson of the Advisory Council of the Council of Europe on Youth. She is active in fostering inclusive environments and strengthening collaboration amongst youth civil society organisations. She has extensive experience as a youth worker, trainer and team developer with the European Federation for Intercultural Learning. She brings a broad interdisciplinary perspective on social, political and environmental challenges through her academic studies. And she's currently pursuing a second master's in globalisation, environment and social change. So I would like you to join me in welcoming Nina Grmuša. Before we move to the discussion, I'd just like to introduce our second panelist, Linus Dolder. He is a global activist, I think, a pioneering force in global climate movement. He's the co-founder of Climate Strikes Switzerland, which I think was founded in 2018. He played a key role in mobilising local actions and shaping the national movement. He was the first spokesperson for Fridays for Future in both Switzerland and Germany. And he helped to organize major events, including the first International Strategy Summit and a federal conference with over 1,000 participants. He has also represented the climate movement at... international forums such as COP25 and COP26, advocating for urgent climate action on the global stage. So beyond activism, he also has a background in running digital campaigns. He has been head of digital campaigns for the Member of Parliament Bruno Höhne and as a political advisor to the Member of the European Parliament Michael Blos. So please welcome Linus Dolder. I'm going to invite both our panelists just to make a quick introductory, some quick introductory remarks, because of course the theme of this panel discussion is, if I were a parliamentarian. So perhaps I could start with you, Nina.
Thank you very much. I'm very happy to be here. What does "quick" mean?
Quick means as quick as you like. So I think if we could keep it to two minutes. If you could end with if I were a parliamentarian, that will help us to focus on your contribution. And then I'll open up for further comments and contributions.
OK, so I think if I were a parliamentarian. Well, so I currently I am a young person that decided to do one form of activism. And that is this European advocacy, trying to do it through the institutions. And one very important thing for me is. And for the Advisory Council on Youth is to open this path also and the right to protest and participate democratically in all the different ways that young people do, like Linus as well. So it's two very different paths of trying to advance the same issues, I would say. So I think if I were a parliamentarian, I would emphasise how this triple planetary crisis, challenges and makes challenges to human rights, democracy and all of the social cohesion. I would listen to youth civil society, civil society and these experts on all the different issues that they have to bring. Here I would like to think again the PACE or the Parliamentary Assembly of Council of Europe for last year adopting a resolution that actually creates a mechanism where young people can be engaged and then can advance more thematically all of the different conversations. And I think this coming only a year and a half and well now two years after the Reykjavik Summit really brings together all of these different topics we've been talking about before. I would, well, last year the Committee of Ministers adopted a recommendation that was prepared by the Advisory Council and the Joint Council on Youth on Young People and Climate Action, the first international instrument of this kind, that talks about how important it is to recognise, as we already said, the crucial role that young people have to play when it comes to combating the environmental and climate crisis and then also to protect the rights of environmental right defenders and their position and their right to protest and participate. But how do we do that? We do that by also creating similar mechanisms at a national level, as PACE has already done, and try to create spaces that's already been mentioned before for participation for different stakeholders to actually give their voice and say. So, you know, what makes a country? It's territory, right? It's people and then disagreement that other countries say, yes, we take you into the club, right? So if I would take that to this panel, well, if your territory is sick and polluted and dying, well, you don't really have much. And what makes its people, current and future generations? Current generations of people from our countries and our areas are experiencing. increasing echo anxiety. There are a lot of young people saying how they will choose not to have children because it's unfair to bring them here. And then there are those that are fighting to make it better. And we don't protect them if we don't include them. Well, they are not fighting just for themselves. They're not fighting only for future generations. They're fighting for all of us. Because we said that we had to take action down. Well, action had to be taken before I was born. And it has not been. And then if we talk about the recognition that we do as clubs of countries and spaces, well then we have to recognize that we have to act together to create a healthy environment and inclusion of all of the different stakeholders that we have, have science-based and research-based policies that consult also our civil society and their namely young people. their organizations so i would also encourage you then to just three points to take the recommendation of the committee of ministers and of young people and climate actions and see where in your country and how it can be implemented and in which places it can be acted on to work on recognizing the right to a healthy and clean environment as a fundamental human right and to create mechanisms for more participation and accountability because without lasting policies that we don't of course we all get impatient we don't see a result right away we will not even have any grounds to speak about thank you. Thank you very much Nina. Linus so i could ask you to make your... Sure, so
allow me to start a couple of years earlier six years ago a green wave swept across the world young people had in months built what was a historic movement pressuring governments to take action on the climate crisis. And then on an unlikely day on September 20th in 2019, millions of people all across the globe took to the streets. I was in Germany at the time. Alone in Germany, we were 1.4 million people on the streets demanding of the Merkel government that they would pass a new climate law. So in what was likely the biggest protest since the Berlin Wall came down, we all together put pressure on the government, and actually months later, Germany did pass one of the most ambitious and tough climate laws, setting goals for each year, phasing out coal as early as 2030, expanding renewables, etc., etc. As a result, Germany started meeting its climate targets. At the time, climate was being discussed on every stage, in every talk show, as the most urgent issue of the time. Now, times have changed, and the green wave is frankly no more. We've seen in the European elections, we've seen in the snap federal German elections, we've seen in many other elections across the globe, a rise in anti-climate rhetoric, and across the political spectrum, not only from the furthest stripe, but also adapted from the center. And we've heard loud demands for policy rollbacks. So as the world experiences more climate-related disasters than ever, a dangerous story has become quite popular. That is the story that no one actually really cares about the climate anymore. Stories are powerful and they stand in a, well, mutually dependent relationship with politics. And I think that story that people don't care anymore about the climate is false and it's dangerous for a couple of reasons. I think... Political debates nowadays sort of imply that climate is kind of a feel-good issue for easier times. And as times are tough, the climate's got to wait. And that attitude is frankly not mirrored in general society at all. all, but overwhelming majorities in Germany, in most, well, every European country, in many countries around the world, are very much concerned about the climate crisis still, even if other issues are taking center stage. So while trust and faith that institutions will actually rise to the task and take sufficient responsibility has declined, most people do want their newly elected governments very much to take and implement more climate action. And to me, that isn't surprising at all, because if it were true, people wouldn't actually care about the climate. That would translate to other words, mean they wouldn't care about securing fundamental living conditions on this planet, which I think when worded that way, it's kind of, it becomes becomes apparent how absurd that position would be. So now we see the story is in fact false, but that doesn't make it less dangerous. I think the story that no one cares about the climate is so dangerous for the precise point that it aims at the heart of the fundament for change in societies that we need. Change happens, so I believe, when there is a feeling of togetherness, when there's bonds throughout society around an issue. And when there is a common interest or a shared worry that connects people. And this is exactly what this story that no one cares anymore destroys. When people think my neighbors, my co-workers, my parents... my whoever, don't care, then they're just less likely to take action themselves. When people think they're alone in their worries, they stop imagining a world where we contain the climate crisis with swift action, and let alone demand that action. So only when everyone thinks that the climate crisis isn't important to people, politicians can demand these policy rollbacks that we've seen them demanding with impunity. So, what I would do as a parliamentarian. I would be quite annoying, I guess. I would always and every day repeat these three points to my colleagues. First, people want more climate action, not less. Stop mixing up agreement of any single policy issue where people might be opposed with general approval for or actually the active wish for more climate action that there is. Second, now it's our job, me as an MP speaking, now it's our job to come up with policy that actually deserves or creates societal approval. So talking again about social justice, talking about just redistribution of revenues, etc., etc. Third point, stop telling the story people wouldn't care about the climate crisis. It's, first of all, a blatant lie. And second, or even worse, it's a self- self-fulfilling prophecy that destroys the very fertile soil in society that we need further change to happen. I think that's it for now.
Thank you very much, Linus. And thank you, Nina. I think we'll open up the discussion now. I'd like to invite our floor. Yes, please. First question from the gentleman.
Thank you very much. This was very impressive. I'm Bodo Bahr, the Secretary General of the Baltic Sea Parliamentary Conference and working for the parliaments in this world for 46 years. I was managing the first Enquete Commission of the German Bundestag in the 80s of the past century. And what Linus said, such a wave as you described, we had it also in decades before. We had a huge awareness about climate change in the 80s and the beginning of the 90s, which was running in the Rio process. And at that time, many, many legislative work was done. What reached at the end that, for example, Germany reduced since 1990 the CO2 emissions about 30 percent. So we don't begin at 100 percent. If we want to go to zero, we begin at 70 percent. And today, this discussion shows again and highlights that climate. policy cannot be effective unless young people are actively involved in shaping it. You have the vision, the urgency and the determination to hold us accountable for delivering a sustainable future and therefore the Baltic Sea Parliamentary Conference does not only discuss with the young people. We give them the possibility not to to think you were a parliamentarian, you can with us act like a parliamentarian. We have each year back to back to our annual conference, a Baltic Sea Parliamentary Youth Forum, and don't only discuss with the young people about the core topics of our conference, also about climate change and energy problems, but we give them the possibility to develop recommendations. which we include in our resolutions, which we send to the governments around the Baltic Sea area to implement that and report nine months later what they have done. This is the pressure for the governments to do something. And in that moment, when we do this like this, you don't think you were a parliamentarian. You can include your recommendations in political decisions as if you are a parliamentarian. And we grip it up and we fully recognize all the efforts of the Council of Europe and what you are doing in environmental cooperation with the young people and support this. But I wanted to mention such an example as a possibility to include young people in decision-making processes for the future. Thank you.
Thank you very much for that. Nina, you are involved in decision-making processes. Would you like to comment?
Yes, thank you so much for sharing this great example that shows that young people are involved, there's recommendations, and there is a follow-up, meaning accountability, and that is, I think, a great example of how we can meaningfully involve young people yeah maybe i can give some context so in in council of europe in the youth department we have a co-managed body so it's not just the european theory committee on youth meaning the ministries uh representatives and ministries and youth from member states shaping the policies but we're co-deciding with the advisory council on youth which is 30 young people from civil society organizations and we co-produce program policy budget and so on and whereas like my colleagues you have also participated in the intergovernmental work of the ad hoc multidisciplinary group on environment in Council of Europe, also shaping the strategy and the action plan when it comes to environment. So I think that also in Council of Europe, we can find examples of how civil society, youth civil society organizations can feed this process and then be part of decision making equally. And I think this is something that should be heard. taken also from other places.
Thank you very much. Gianluca.
Yeah, thank you very much. I just wanted to make two quick points. The first one is to say that indeed, this is correct, that we have been talking about these issues for decades. But I think as Nina very clearly said, we were not quite successful to 100% degree. And so we probably, and what is happening now is getting worse. So by the time we keep talking, things are getting, are not getting better, they're getting worse. Maybe it's not to speak in an economist's term is not a steep decline, but it is a decline like this. And I think, you know, I'm not a parliamentarian, far from it, but, you know, I just wanted to reiterate the point that Mr. Hojcik said before. For people to understand the value of countering climate change, you have to make it affordable for them. You know, it cannot be that only rich people can afford electric cars. If electric cars are the solution, that only rich people can afford the pumps to heat the houses. And as a parliamentarian, I would argue that if we all agree that it is important to combat climate change, because that's the starting point. If we don't, then we have a problem. But if we all agree that we need to do something about it, then the answer is, how do you convince the population to come with you? And the way to do that, it has to be to make it affordable. I mean, it cannot be... If you go to the Netherlands, sorry, just because you're here in the front row, but in the Netherlands, you have electric charges at every meter. Well, if you go to other parts of Europe, that's not the case. So how on earth people are going to convert their cars into something better if... They can't go from A to B. And this is really what I think it's needed for a fundamental switch in the mindset of the population, irrespective of the political color of the day, because I like to think that every political group understands that we are facing a crisis.
Nina, what did you think about that?
I would just add a short point, agreeing with this. I think it's not just about making it affordable. I think it's about making it accessible and inclusive, because what... research so far shows us and what different organizations tell us there's different populations affected differently by climate change and if you look at different social issues we can also take this broader more holistic view and see how different groups if we put an intersectional lens if we look at how it affects young people how it affects women it affects women differently climate change and poverty and then if how our indigenous communities are affected or how we sometimes hoping to do better policies we export pollution elsewhere right but it's all part of this much bigger ecosystem so that's why it has to be a systematic approach to looking at how do we both recognize what are the needs and include the voices of those who are affected differently by by these places because these issues in different places because it has to be a solution that is, you know, tailored differently in different places for different groups. And it is a big work, but that's why I think including more research and more stakeholders in this process and committing to it really, and that means with financial resources as well, is a way to do it. And it's long term more for us.
It's about how to do it, isn't it? Linus, you wanted to comment there.
Yes, please. I think, well, frankly, these, the social dimensions and the accessibleness are very much important. As I mentioned before, I think another thing is, I'm noticing that in many climate discourses at the moment, I think there's kind of a notion that, oh, yeah, we, we just continue, but then secretly, we also do a bit of climate, but then we don't really commit to it. But then we secretly we just try to make everything work. That doesn't work out. Let me be clear, that doesn't work out in any scenario, because the changes that we need to do as a society are just too grand to be done secretly behind the back of your population. So I think what's needed is that politicians, well, with policy concepts that are worthy of broad agreement in society. also campaign and advertise for these very policies and that they courageously go forward and present the solutions that they found, which, by the way, exist. I mean, so many of the concepts that we do need do absolutely exist. It's not a lack of concepts that's hindering us. It's not a lack of technology that's hindering us. But it's a lack of... will for a political implementation that's hindering us. So I think, yeah. Come in.
Mr. Husik, let's move to you.
Very brief comment, actually. I'm just going to use the liberty of what I would do if I would be... young activist again. One important thing that I realized, and I feel a bit missing, because you have, so to say, the, what I would say, the young activists, you have the young politicians that are involved in the issue. I think there is a third force that is missing in this, and that's what we call the young entrepreneurs. There is incredible innovation happening. We are in the middle, besides the triple crisis, we are in the middle of really huge disruptions. In a positive way. If you imagine what a smartphone has done to our society, both in good ways and bad ways, no one would imagine 20 years ago that there would be tens of millions of people working as app developers. Now, I think what needs to be, what I would encourage you to bring, so to say, into the movement are exactly these young entrepreneurs. and distilled them with the desire not only for innovation and money, but kind of how they can bring about change. And there is an incredible power in that. And I think that will enable you also to broaden up the political support, that will enable you to broaden up the discourse and bring also the benefit. It's not all about techno solutions. We have to look into really fundamental, deeper things. but without engaging the aspiring economic side of the society. I think that's one of the weaknesses that I would recommend to address.
We're running somewhat short of time, unfortunately. If you allow me, and if there are no further comments from the floor, perhaps I can take just a couple of moments to review some of the takeaways. It's a pity we didn't really get into the area. of intergenerational responsibility, I would have liked to have followed up on Nina's initial comments, but perhaps that's a subject for a separate discussion. We've heard that we need to find the right mix in these issues, that we need to embrace change, we need to bring in entrepreneurs, we need to ensure that there's social justice, and we need to be competitive, because that's where our priorities are now. But it seems to me that the prime takeaway from this is the need to find that political will. And perhaps that's the sort of the last comment that I can leave in everybody's minds. We as the Council of Europe obviously have the standards. I think Gianluca presented those in a very, very concise and powerful way. We basically have, if I can find my notes on that, there are four main points. Sorry, the papers, I took them apart. So we've got the recommendation on young people and climate change. We've got the new treaty on combating environmental crimes, which is up for adoption in May by the Parliamentary Assembly. We've also got the Council of Europe's strategy on the environment and the action plan. And we'll have a first report on that at the end of 2025. Look forward to that. And then there's the fourth area, of course, which is the possibility for new legally enforceable right to environmental protection. So a lot still to be done, but we're making progress. So I'd like to leave you on that positive note. And thank you very much for your participation today.
If you enjoyed this discussion and wish to explore more topics, be sure to check out the episodes of Europe Explained. You can learn more about the Council of Europe and its initiatives at our website, coe.org. And don't forget to follow us on social media for the latest updates and insights. You can find us on X, LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram.
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