The Story of the Inner Green Deal - The human dimension of sustainable leadership with Liane Stephan & Jeroen Janss | S3-E1 | Inner Green Deal - the human dimension of sustainability.

Description

Inner Green Deal founders Liane Stephan and Jeroen Janss explore the inner, human dimension of sustainable leadership by telling their own personal story of why they created the Inner Green Deal and what they learned during these first three years.

They share about their relationship with nature, their search to integrate climate action in their contemplative work and how they see leaders transform in their programmes.

With this episode, we are starting Season 3 which will bring you inspiring stories about the human dimension of sustainability.

This season also marks the beginning of our regular community events. Are you a listener or subscriber of this podcast and would like to connect with like minded and explore your personal Inner Green Deal? Then visit our interactive monthly community events. You can find the dates on the Inner Green Deal page on LinkedIn.

The Inner Green Deal is a non-profit organisation based in Cologne and Brussels with a growing community around the world. We address the human dimension of sustainability and support leaders, change makers and facilitators to accelerate the green transformation. We offer a range of short and longer programmes cultivating collaboration, systems thinking and compassion. In addition to programmes for organisations, we empower facilitators and offer train-the-trainer programmes, access to curricula and digital tools to create cohesive communities of change.

Our podcast is produced by Tom Weimann from Hamburg. Music by Marc Matthaei and Tom Weimann.

For more information, visit us on LinkedIn, innergreendeal.com or write to info@innergreendeal.com.

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Transcription

Speaker #0
This episode is a bit special as we're reflecting on our own story. What is the story of the Inner Green Deal? It is winter of 2018 when Lian Stefan and Jeroen Jans meet each other for the first time. At this time, Jeroen is facilitating mindfulness-based programs to leaders at the EU institutions, while Lian is managing director of Avaris, a company which offers mindfulness-based leadership development and coaching programs for major multinationals. What begins with curiosity and a casual exchange shall become a non-profit which embraces the inner human dimension of climate change with courage, dedication, and compassion. Welcome to the Inner Green Demon, the podcast for exploring the human dimension. of sustainable leadership. In each episode, we give time and space to remarkable guests to tell their story and bring the inner dimension of sustainability to life. I'm Tom, and I'll be your guide. Before we get to know more about the early beginnings of the Inner Green Deal, let's get to know Lian and Jeroen a little better.
Speaker #1
I am a father of three and a husband. My children are between nine and fourteen, and they have brought a lot of meaning and insight to my life. In particular, the fragility of life and the beauty of life. They teach you, I think, everything about how important it is to experience love and to give love and to share love. From that sense of connection, it's It becomes quite quickly obvious that that also applies to all other aspects of life. You know, when you think about the future, of course, it makes sense to respond to the crisis that we're currently in and try to do something. But I think on a simple level, being with them, being with my dog, being out in nature, it just gives me a sense of wanting to do what I can to contribute to a more livable life and a more... connected life. That gives me a lot of meaning.
Speaker #2
I am a very compassionate person who tries to support other people on their own journey, supporting them in the way that I give them as much as I can helpful means so that they find their own way of shifting their mind and being able to sense and feel. their bodies, their heart, their mind, become more aware of their mind, and therefore show up in a different way as they might have done it in the past. I'm a managing director and co-founder of Avaris and the Inner Green Deal, but that's just the outer world. I would say that I really try to give other people the opportunity to develop themselves. get closer to their human nature. My mother always said that I have been a very wild child. I think actually that I haven't been one, but I was wild because this was the only way to somehow get out of this unhealthy family system. Every chance I had, I went outside, played soccer with the boys or climb trees. So movement was very important. And there was this beautiful forest very close to our house and a small stream also. And I had a nice friend that I played quite often with. There was the sound of this wonderful stream. It would always do this beautiful water sounds. Very often my thoughts go to that place because I felt this was a healing place for me. We would collect sticks and build a tippy. We would just, you know. clay and put our fingers and dig them into the soil. And yeah, it felt so free and so healthy and so protected. It started when I turned five years from that on till maybe 10, 11. I always revisited that place. I gained a lot of energy so that I could somehow cope with what was going on at home. Sometimes the sun would shine through the trees and really touch our noses. I think I visited that place every second day at least to be there. And sometimes I would even make my homework there later on when I went to school. Just a very beautiful. very sacred and safe space that was there.
Speaker #1
For someone who spent a lot of time in his mind, thinking and wondering, I remember being out in nature and being in particular walking the dog, which I still do with a lot of pleasure, has been a way to stop the thinking a little bit and really just smell, you know, the air. That has always been a real joy. And in particular, I think with... with dogs who are so unconditionally loving. It has been always really a joy to connect and being out. And I still really enjoy that in a very simple way. Later in life, when I became a little bit more conscious about what it's like to be out in nature and what nature does, I really spend much more time consciously outside and also did that during the night. I've done these vision quests. Whereas as a child, I could have been fearful and in my head and not maybe taking it in fully. I think now as an adult, I really crave for these opportunities to be out and just overcome this sense of nature that is something sometimes a bit scary or so, but actually just really is just completely magnificent and beautiful.
Speaker #0
Before the two meet each other, sustainability and the climate crisis have already been present in Lianz and Jeroen's life. But when exactly do they realize how they could include it into their professional work?
Speaker #1
I met Fernando Garcia, a dear friend of mine, at the European Commission 10 years ago, probably. We shared our love for being outside and meditation as well. He was very worried about climate change, long before most people were very worried. And we did together a program. Jonah Macy. I remember spending many long walks together in thinking how we could bring this type of work to the world and what would be our role in this. It was the time when Greta Thunberg just took us to the streets and it was a time where we wondered, okay, so what is it that we can contribute? Ultimately, what I realized is that I wasn't perhaps maybe as vocal or as contrarian as maybe a Greta or Fernando or some of my friends. And I just felt that my role is different. It was perhaps more about bringing people together. It was perhaps more about using the skills of collaboration, remaining positive and bridging these two worlds of, on the one hand, sustainability and more activist-like and people who really want to make a change, the social entrepreneurs. which I really relate to. And on the other hand, perhaps the more introverted, wisdom-seeking and teachers, the Thich Nhat Hanhs, John and Macy, and that deep work, I just felt it could be something that we could bridge and to bring that wisdom to the mainstream that wasn't really exposed to that depth and to that wisdom. That has been a real source of inspiration to find that. middle ground to bring people together, to overcome this polarization, to move forward and to combine these different energies of being quite entrepreneurial and wanting things to change and change makers energy. And on the other hand, this wisdom and this equanimity and this trust and deep confidence that our presence can change things. I found a really wonderful partner in Lian who means that as well, I think. Let's see what she says.
Speaker #2
I have to go a little bit back in my history. In my mid-30s, I started to work for some NGOs. I have been in Afghanistan, Kosovo, Congo, Liberia, Egypt. And first of all, I could see the incredible inequality between North and South, or East and West. Incredible poverty, sometimes post-war regions, where women and men were really traumatized. Being with those people together had a huge impact on how I perceived suddenly differently this world. And at the same time, it was very inspiring because even though they had quite a difficult and challenging life, there was an underlying joyfulness just simply about life that taught me a lot about life itself. They have these beautiful rituals. It was so... normal for them to sit on the floor and sit in a circle and just share their stories, their fears, well, everything about their past, the war, about poverty, about illness, about family. And that was so nourishing for them, but also for me, very touching, that even in such circumstances, people who sit together can support each other in a very loving and kind way. There it really started, I would say, beside my own childhood experiences, to really realize how vulnerable we are and how beautiful it can be if humans are really open and listen to each other. What is possible if they throw their ideas together and move into collective actions? When I started with Avaris, why did I found Avaris as a company that offers mindfulness training? There was something behind the same inspiration of bringing people together, open their heart, working together in a very kind and intelligent manner. And then nature was always close to my heart. So when it was clear to me that the climate will change and that means in... All these regions I have worked in during my NGO time, they will really suffer from climate change. I suddenly saw them in their surrounding and having no water or floods really hurt me a lot. And then at the same time, being a mother, seeing my own child, maybe in 10 or 20 years, having a lot of difficulties due to the climate change, I felt a strong calling to... to at least with what I know and what I can offer to do something. Then I met Jeroen and I felt not only that I liked him, but specifically his engagement and his dedication, I would say, to really wanting to serve Mother Earth just inspired me to do this together and to create the Inner Green Deal. I feel very grateful for this opportunity.
Speaker #0
Let's move ahead in time by one year. It is now 2019. The EU Commission has just announced the Green Deal. At a meeting at the EU, together with Fernando Garcia, Lian and Jeroen realized that something is missing when addressing climate change. That the link between inner and outer, the human dimension, needs to be included into the way we approach sustainability. At this point, Jeroen and Lian connect on a deep level. and proceed with dedication. This is when an initiative is born. It will grow into a non-profit by 2022. Its name is the Inner Green Deal.
Speaker #2
I heard about Jeroen through my Avaris business partner. He said there's this guy in Brussels, he does also something with mindfulness, and he will join us in our next director's meeting. I think we talked about coaching. about some coaching skills, how to do a good coaching process. I felt Jeroen was very curious. He asked very good questions. By that time, we even didn't talk about climate change or anything that had to do with this. Later on, I was also introduced to Fernando. We met with Chris together and started to talk about climate change and its consequences and impacts on human life. And I really felt... very strongly in that meeting connected to Jeroen, because he had very similar ideas and words. And what I really liked was his approach to use the middle way, to not say it's going to be terrible, nor to ignore it, but to say the crisis that we are in can help us to reconnect to our human nature. It can help us to reconnect to to the ability to collaborate in a very human way and create a good human world. I appreciated that so much because it was on my thinking all the time. I don't want to become an activist and be very, let's say, in the tendency, very aggressive, nor do I want to do nothing. So I want to invite everyone, even those who would deny that there is a climate change. I want to have a good conversation.
Speaker #1
What I enjoy working with Liana is that we both share Something that we can only express non-verbally. And I'll try to do that. Or at least it has a sound. And the sound is oomph. And this may not make sense to you. But what I, I'll try to describe it a little bit. We both are quite passionate and motivated people and engaged. Yes, I mean, we have a life behind us and we've learned to be reasonable from time to time. We learn to listen and relate. And there's this whole... deep inquiry about the meaning of life, which we both explored. And yet there is this sense of energy that I really appreciate in Lianne. She's a force of nature. I don't know if I can reveal your age, but she looks at least 15 years younger. She is very energetic. It's a pleasure to work together because we both have this sense of, well, it's tough, but we can do this and we just do it. Also, there's this sense of... oomph about it. You know, let's not hold back. And it's not from a superficial, let's just be active, but also from a kind of experienced sense of, well, you know, something really needs to shift. And Mother Nature and the Earth is counting on us simple people to do something meaningful. From that sense of care and motherhood and wanting to do the right thing comes the sense of All right, let's put our energy behind it and roll up our sleeves. When we started working together, things started to progress. Yeah, we know a few things about the mind and changing minds and habit change and all of that. We were really curious and we were also honest in that, yeah, we didn't know that much in the beginning about sustainability. We just decided to use this podcast actually to ask people. and to have meaningful conversations, to listen. And then based on that, take the next step and then take another step and take another step, even though we were not always necessarily completely ready. But I think this willingness to commit no matter what is something that I really appreciate about our collaboration.
Speaker #0
By the time Lian and Jeroen move forward together, they both look back on an extensive history in contemplative practices. Lian with 45 years of leadership development, as well as contemplative studies and practice, and Jeroen with 20 plus years of broad experience in mindfulness and leadership development. When you are inspired by Joanna Macy, Thich Nhat Hanh, and so many others, how do you embrace the challenges of climate change? Jeroen and Lian sometimes refer to it by the word oomph. Another metaphor could be to attend the crisis fully aware. with a soft front and a strong back. But what exactly does that mean?
Speaker #1
To start with an open front, to start with an open heart, and be curious, and, you know, explore life, explore people who are in front of you, even if they look different or have very different views, and to relate and to be curious. And then comes this moment when people... ask something of us that is sometimes difficult or sometimes very different. And then comes the strong back, I feel. This sense of standing for something that is important and sensing that in the body and feeling that it's right is when we sometimes can lean into either the conversation or the difficulty or whatever is going on. And You're not alone in this. So when you're standing up or when you're leaning in, you're sometimes pushing a little bit. It's not us. It's not our ego necessarily. It is all of us. And it is my dog. It is my family. It is the people around us, people on the other side of the world who expect. Nothing less than that we do our best. The Bodhisattva story and the underlying tradition is truly very beautiful and something to explore. And if you're not so familiar with it, I would highly invite you to read about it.
Speaker #2
Having a strong back that helps you also to walk through time and space in an upright manner also has to do with dignity, with strength. And at the same time, this back gives you a hold so that you can lean against almost this strong back. You can trust, you can develop confidence that you can lean against this strong back. And therefore, it's just natural that you can open up and soften your front, embracing no matter what is there. It doesn't matter whether it's painful, whether it's beautiful, whether it's new, whether it's... foreign it doesn't matter you just simply embrace it because you can trust your back That's why I think also the Inner Green Deal, the name itself is so beautiful because it sits right between the soft front and the strong back. It brings together the ability to open up even to the disaster and at the same time to trust that everything will be okay because it is as it is anyway. That way, I feel we can also touch impermanence, because everything is anyway impermanent. How do we relate to it? How do we do this? And my wish is that every person in this world, every human, has the chance to feel that strong back and soft front. Because if we can feel that, not think it is there, but really feel it. and connect to it. We actually connect to our human nature. And then everything will just emerge from that naturally.
Speaker #0
So what is it that changes when we connect to our human nature? And what is it that Lian and Jeroen are experiencing when they train other leaders in bringing together the inner and the outer dimension and in fostering a personal and professional inner Green Deal?
Speaker #2
The first thing that comes to my mind is the word listening deeply. When people start this kind of journey, they start to develop the ability to listen to themselves, to become more aware of their inner world, their inner voices, their emotions, their beliefs, their longings. At the same time, really, they start to listen also to their environment. They start to listen to their children. They start to listen more deeply to their spouses, friends. Then just naturally it expands and they open up their senses and they start to hear the birds, which they haven't really heard before. And they start to listen to the sounds of maybe the trees or the water. So that kind of listening, or we could also say the rise of awareness. start suddenly to become part of their lives. And that changes a lot because suddenly you hear something, you see something, you smell something that you haven't done before. And that changes the relationship, how people relate to these inner and also outer phenomena.
Speaker #1
I think it's deeply personal. What I can describe is a sense of connection. you recognize that we're actually very similar and you quickly go beyond kind of the socially held views and just recognize that when you open up, we're actually very similar and what we do impacts others and how we show up impacts others. And you can more closely see the connection in movement. It's no longer something that you just... experience when you're very still and you're very serious and you're just listening, but also something that you can start, therefore, bring into action. With that comes a certain confidence, I think, that what you do is fundamentally coming from a good place. And once you sense that to be true and you feel that you're doing it for the right reasons and others too, I feel suddenly we can become much more ambitious, much more encompassing. So it's no longer about the smaller things in life, but we can step into something bigger, knowing that we're not alone in that. The sense of courage increases and impact increases. Even in situations where perhaps habitually or perhaps when I was younger, I might feel very small or stumble. I feel now much more... trusting that what I do matters and that what others do matters as well, and that we can meet somewhere there and therefore can have much more impact than perhaps we might have thought a long time ago. And it's just about right because we need to do something. Essentially, this notion of unlocking potential, this notion of, as they say in French, il y a plus en vous. There's more within you, just untapping deeper. resources essentially that are broadly shared among all of us if we allow ourselves to open up for it.
Speaker #2
There is a history of separation and we all come from that. So the narrative that we have internalized is me and you. Or out there is nature. To reconnect to ourselves and to reconnect to others. and to nature is a major step in realizing that everything is interdependent. And stepping away from competitive behavior is also a huge step. We are educated to compete with everyone, organizations, between leaders. There's a huge competition going on. To suddenly realize that we are all the same. We all suffer, we all long for happiness, we all will die one day. So we are the same, and not only the humans, also with other beings. When we realize that this interdependency is there and that we are all the same, then you can change or stop changing automatically almost your actions. And doing it collectively with others together gives us the strength to step maybe... into actions that we would never do alone because we don't have enough energy or we don't have the trust or the courage to do so.
Speaker #1
The beautiful thing is that it's also at the same time very nourishing while your impact is increasing and while you're stepping up and perhaps are taking more on, feeling this sense of connection, feeling more in tune with yourself. people around you and being closer to nature when you do the when you act therefore it feels very energizing also gives you a sense of energy and nourishment and therefore making it also easier to sustain and yes of course there are times when you need to rest But also that resting becomes more conscious and becomes easier somehow.
Speaker #2
So what I observe when we work with leaders is that they very slowly, step by step, start actually to trust the group. And when you trust a group, you can lean into that group. You can follow the group. And therefore, in a way, through the group, also connect better to yourself. And realizing, I mean, sometimes there are very small, tiny changes, but they mean a lot to people who are still in that fragmented, very speedy, busy world. Just that creating that little space where for one moment they feel themselves and can express what they feel can be a huge shift. The difference between short-term and long-term thinking and also systems way of thinking, so that they see that even tiny actions can have a huge impact. That's such a game changer for them, that they really start to see their ability of impact, which they haven't seen before.
Speaker #1
Something that I had to learn as well as a social entrepreneur is that it depends on your outlook. Gradually, I had to discover that the kind of challenges that we're taking on here are not something that can be fixed immediately. It is something about culture, about leadership, about mindset. These things have to evolve. And as individuals, we can try to collaborate to change the narrative and to change the story and to change how we approach. what we prioritize, why we do it, and we can try to open the mind for that. But this is something that takes decades, probably. Recently, I was with a group in the forest, and we asked ourselves, what is our vision of resilience? And what is your personal story of resilience? It just struck me. So I'm about to turn 50 next year. We're now 2022, and I would love to remain active. and make a contribution until 2050. And I'm just deeply curious and at a certain level confident.
Speaker #0
And if we go through this long-term shift in mindset that actually we could experience a society that's much more just, much more positive, much more joyful, and much more green. And then it just struck me in the forest saying this is something of a lifetime. And I would look to my own health and to my own way of living as to something that would be able to bridge those next 30 years, which are so critical. I would love to see my children grow up during that period and embrace life and be able to enjoy life and not be living in fear. And I know that that is actually still a somewhat limited perspective. I know one could talk about this is one generation, perhaps. How about the next seventh generation? How about the children of my children? Will my children have children? They want children. And what about those children afterwards? And how do we move into next century. And I think if we slow down and reflect more deeply on that, it'd be very, very difficult not to shift whatever it is you're doing and make this a real priority and just deeply ask yourself, well, how can I contribute? And what would I concretely start doing differently? What can I do to really sustain life? And that question has become much more present for me.
Speaker #1
It's a little bit different for me. He turns 50. I just turned 65, which is a huge difference. I'm not so patient. I think it's very important to understand that you cannot pull the grass. It's as simple as that. If you pull it, it's a very disruptive movement then. And development is a process. It's not something you can influence or you can determine. I think everyone knows what needs to be done. And yet the human being somehow has always this gap between knowing and doing. I'm even not sure if I need to see the results so much of the work. We can do our work step by step. And then hopefully it has impact to also relax into that, not pushing too hard, nor to be passive. This middle path is for me the right thing to do. Sometimes. That's my experience in that kind of work. You work with someone and suddenly seven years later, you meet this person and they say, this was really, really life changing when I worked with you together.
Speaker #2
Pulling the grass does not accelerate the change we sometimes want to see so urgently. But maybe it helps to mindfully notice where seeds are already sprouting and slowly starting to grow.
Speaker #1
I can see that slowly HR and the sustainability department start to see that they have to work together, that developing people and people's mindset and at the same time to really very concretely do something with their SDGs, no matter in what direction or what they choose to focus on, that they have to work together.
Speaker #0
Sustainability and... kind of the people from learning and development and HR working together. It's an interesting one and it's a non-traditional one. We are now working with a number of organizations where sustainability has meant it made the top one, two, three priority of the organization. And I think learning and development people are used to thinking, OK, so we have a strategy. How do we translate that into a learning culture? How can we allow the organization to embrace this? Well, that requires time and space and programs and real conscious effort. Sustainability folk are also really keen in that because they have now much more attention. And in the past, they've sometimes struggled perhaps to get the attention from the organization. And now the spotlight is turning on them. And I see many of them reaching out to the organization. People focusing specifically on the topic of engagement. How do you engage an organization around sustainability? What is important and how do we do that? And how can HR and sustainability collaborate there?
Speaker #1
What makes me feel confident and also happy is the collaboration with Veroon and our team. I couldn't do this alone. Being in that partnership gives me a lot of positive energy. And second of all, I just see their... so many really great initiatives in this world. There are so many young but also older people in this world who started NGOs, who started projects to really make this world a better place for future generations. It feels like we are just simply part of this wave in a very passionate and dedicated way. It is so difficult in this digitalized world to create space in your mind to shift your mind. Because people are so incredibly busy, also leaders, and it's not their fault. It's just the way how we relate to this digital world. They're so busy that it is very, very difficult to calm down, to sense and feel and connect.
Speaker #0
I see my children being, in many ways, much more caring and have a very different relationship with nature. than perhaps we were brought up to be with. Not to say that everything is rosy now, but I do feel that there's a lot of awareness. They act with a lot of courage, which I think is quite beautiful to see. And I also am quite positive about how increasingly leaders in more traditional roles are honestly opening up. and becoming perhaps more humble in that they know that the challenges are huge. I do feel that there's an increasing awareness of what the challenges are like and how difficult it is to change an organization and the entire supply chain and the entire world and the ecosystem. I do feel, therefore, that leaders are becoming more willing to examine what it is they can do to have more impact, to collaborate, to align their values and wonder how they can inspire people more deeply. Because they know that command and control doesn't work and they know that the challenges are big. So I feel there's an increasing willingness to work on these deeper dimensions of mindset and to do what it takes and therefore also to take time for that, which... there hasn't always been in this kind of rat race. And I feel that once the perspective of KPIs and shareholder return and all of that has now shifted to one of stewardship and serving, and I, of course, it's not with everyone, but with an increasing group of leaders in both private and public organization, then with this shift in focus and the why shifting. How it starts to shift as well, how we relate to each other, how we lead, how we show up is shifting. That's beautiful. And I think that's encouraging. Remember that we don't necessarily need to wait until we have convinced everybody to start changing. And simply starting with a group of people in your organization or where you live, start saying, well, where are we as people? And what can we do? That is beautiful. And I think that is, regardless of where you are, very hopeful. It feels like a little bit of an awakening, one can say so. And therefore, it's beautiful to be part of that. That's the meaning that we are getting from our work, to be a small part of that shift in mindset, shift in leadership, shift in narrative.
Speaker #1
I can see the changes in myself step by step. I'm not 100% a green person, but I struggle. And I work constantly on becoming one. But it's a never-ending story. I will never be perfect. So I have to be very friendly to myself also. Even though I am offering programs called the Inner Green Deal, I'm working on this in a very light and easy way without fighting too strongly and blaming myself for maybe not being the perfect, so to say, green person.
Speaker #0
What really gives me hope is, in the end, the joy of doing what's right. Of course, we can talk about the carbon footprint and we're not perfect. Although I think looking back over the last 10, 20 years, we've come some way, fortunately. But there is something that gives me joy when I talk about handprint. And this is something I had to discover relatively recently about... The other concept, instead of footprint, of course, it's always about less and that can feel negative. But there's also something about a handprint. And that is about what is the positive impact that you have on the world? Again, if I just look at my own life from advising boards about which KPI should come into a long-term incentive plan or advising on executive remuneration or some of these things to helping people shift, open their hearts. embrace their role, change, and have impact on the world. I mean, it just feels like change is possible and it feels good. The fact that it feels good is so encouraging because I trust that ultimately people will follow their hearts, will want to feel good, will want to feel more happy, will want to feel that they're part of the solution or want to feel that they make a meaningful contribution. If we give people the space and time to slow down and to really look at that, my experience has been... overwhelmingly positive that people embrace that ultimately. It may sometimes take time, but ultimately it shifts. Once you see that in yourself, you recognize that with others too. And that is ultimately very inspiring.
Speaker #1
One last thing. What makes me feel very happy and very confident is that every day is a good day. And that I learned that every day, no matter how that day is, is a good day of life. Because it is how it is. The other thing what makes me feel very happy is that I am going to have a dog next year. It's very important. It sounds so funny maybe, but if Jeroen and I wouldn't take care of our own happiness, we won't be able to do the job we do. So taking care of one's own joyfulness, you know, whether it's dancing or climbing trees or being successful in your job. or whatever it is, to recognize that there are things in life that trigger joyfulness is so crucial to cope with all the challenges that we have.
Speaker #0
Beautiful.
Speaker #2
How may anybody of us contribute to a positive change? And what kind of inner work would be helpful on this journey? I hope that Lian's and Jeroen's story has inspired you to find places to start in your professional and private life. Here are some themes from this episode you could contemplate further on. What is my own, personal or professional inner Green Deal? How do I strengthen my back and soften my front so I can fully attend to what is around me? And where do I find joy on this path? If you enjoyed this episode, please consider sharing and subscribing or leaving a review. In doing so, you make it easier for people to discover our podcast. We thank you for your support and look forward to meeting you at one of our programs or our monthly community event. To find out more, visit innergreendeal.com or use the links in the show notes.

Description

They share about their relationship with nature, their search to integrate climate action in their contemplative work and how they see leaders transform in their programmes.

With this episode, we are starting Season 3 which will bring you inspiring stories about the human dimension of sustainability.

Our podcast is produced by Tom Weimann from Hamburg. Music by Marc Matthaei and Tom Weimann.

For more information, visit us on LinkedIn, innergreendeal.com or write to info@innergreendeal.com.

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Transcription

Speaker #0
This episode is a bit special as we're reflecting on our own story. What is the story of the Inner Green Deal? It is winter of 2018 when Lian Stefan and Jeroen Jans meet each other for the first time. At this time, Jeroen is facilitating mindfulness-based programs to leaders at the EU institutions, while Lian is managing director of Avaris, a company which offers mindfulness-based leadership development and coaching programs for major multinationals. What begins with curiosity and a casual exchange shall become a non-profit which embraces the inner human dimension of climate change with courage, dedication, and compassion. Welcome to the Inner Green Demon, the podcast for exploring the human dimension. of sustainable leadership. In each episode, we give time and space to remarkable guests to tell their story and bring the inner dimension of sustainability to life. I'm Tom, and I'll be your guide. Before we get to know more about the early beginnings of the Inner Green Deal, let's get to know Lian and Jeroen a little better.
Speaker #1
I am a father of three and a husband. My children are between nine and fourteen, and they have brought a lot of meaning and insight to my life. In particular, the fragility of life and the beauty of life. They teach you, I think, everything about how important it is to experience love and to give love and to share love. From that sense of connection, it's It becomes quite quickly obvious that that also applies to all other aspects of life. You know, when you think about the future, of course, it makes sense to respond to the crisis that we're currently in and try to do something. But I think on a simple level, being with them, being with my dog, being out in nature, it just gives me a sense of wanting to do what I can to contribute to a more livable life and a more... connected life. That gives me a lot of meaning.
Speaker #2
I am a very compassionate person who tries to support other people on their own journey, supporting them in the way that I give them as much as I can helpful means so that they find their own way of shifting their mind and being able to sense and feel. their bodies, their heart, their mind, become more aware of their mind, and therefore show up in a different way as they might have done it in the past. I'm a managing director and co-founder of Avaris and the Inner Green Deal, but that's just the outer world. I would say that I really try to give other people the opportunity to develop themselves. get closer to their human nature. My mother always said that I have been a very wild child. I think actually that I haven't been one, but I was wild because this was the only way to somehow get out of this unhealthy family system. Every chance I had, I went outside, played soccer with the boys or climb trees. So movement was very important. And there was this beautiful forest very close to our house and a small stream also. And I had a nice friend that I played quite often with. There was the sound of this wonderful stream. It would always do this beautiful water sounds. Very often my thoughts go to that place because I felt this was a healing place for me. We would collect sticks and build a tippy. We would just, you know. clay and put our fingers and dig them into the soil. And yeah, it felt so free and so healthy and so protected. It started when I turned five years from that on till maybe 10, 11. I always revisited that place. I gained a lot of energy so that I could somehow cope with what was going on at home. Sometimes the sun would shine through the trees and really touch our noses. I think I visited that place every second day at least to be there. And sometimes I would even make my homework there later on when I went to school. Just a very beautiful. very sacred and safe space that was there.
Speaker #1
For someone who spent a lot of time in his mind, thinking and wondering, I remember being out in nature and being in particular walking the dog, which I still do with a lot of pleasure, has been a way to stop the thinking a little bit and really just smell, you know, the air. That has always been a real joy. And in particular, I think with... with dogs who are so unconditionally loving. It has been always really a joy to connect and being out. And I still really enjoy that in a very simple way. Later in life, when I became a little bit more conscious about what it's like to be out in nature and what nature does, I really spend much more time consciously outside and also did that during the night. I've done these vision quests. Whereas as a child, I could have been fearful and in my head and not maybe taking it in fully. I think now as an adult, I really crave for these opportunities to be out and just overcome this sense of nature that is something sometimes a bit scary or so, but actually just really is just completely magnificent and beautiful.
Speaker #0
Before the two meet each other, sustainability and the climate crisis have already been present in Lianz and Jeroen's life. But when exactly do they realize how they could include it into their professional work?
Speaker #1
I met Fernando Garcia, a dear friend of mine, at the European Commission 10 years ago, probably. We shared our love for being outside and meditation as well. He was very worried about climate change, long before most people were very worried. And we did together a program. Jonah Macy. I remember spending many long walks together in thinking how we could bring this type of work to the world and what would be our role in this. It was the time when Greta Thunberg just took us to the streets and it was a time where we wondered, okay, so what is it that we can contribute? Ultimately, what I realized is that I wasn't perhaps maybe as vocal or as contrarian as maybe a Greta or Fernando or some of my friends. And I just felt that my role is different. It was perhaps more about bringing people together. It was perhaps more about using the skills of collaboration, remaining positive and bridging these two worlds of, on the one hand, sustainability and more activist-like and people who really want to make a change, the social entrepreneurs. which I really relate to. And on the other hand, perhaps the more introverted, wisdom-seeking and teachers, the Thich Nhat Hanhs, John and Macy, and that deep work, I just felt it could be something that we could bridge and to bring that wisdom to the mainstream that wasn't really exposed to that depth and to that wisdom. That has been a real source of inspiration to find that. middle ground to bring people together, to overcome this polarization, to move forward and to combine these different energies of being quite entrepreneurial and wanting things to change and change makers energy. And on the other hand, this wisdom and this equanimity and this trust and deep confidence that our presence can change things. I found a really wonderful partner in Lian who means that as well, I think. Let's see what she says.
Speaker #2
I have to go a little bit back in my history. In my mid-30s, I started to work for some NGOs. I have been in Afghanistan, Kosovo, Congo, Liberia, Egypt. And first of all, I could see the incredible inequality between North and South, or East and West. Incredible poverty, sometimes post-war regions, where women and men were really traumatized. Being with those people together had a huge impact on how I perceived suddenly differently this world. And at the same time, it was very inspiring because even though they had quite a difficult and challenging life, there was an underlying joyfulness just simply about life that taught me a lot about life itself. They have these beautiful rituals. It was so... normal for them to sit on the floor and sit in a circle and just share their stories, their fears, well, everything about their past, the war, about poverty, about illness, about family. And that was so nourishing for them, but also for me, very touching, that even in such circumstances, people who sit together can support each other in a very loving and kind way. There it really started, I would say, beside my own childhood experiences, to really realize how vulnerable we are and how beautiful it can be if humans are really open and listen to each other. What is possible if they throw their ideas together and move into collective actions? When I started with Avaris, why did I found Avaris as a company that offers mindfulness training? There was something behind the same inspiration of bringing people together, open their heart, working together in a very kind and intelligent manner. And then nature was always close to my heart. So when it was clear to me that the climate will change and that means in... All these regions I have worked in during my NGO time, they will really suffer from climate change. I suddenly saw them in their surrounding and having no water or floods really hurt me a lot. And then at the same time, being a mother, seeing my own child, maybe in 10 or 20 years, having a lot of difficulties due to the climate change, I felt a strong calling to... to at least with what I know and what I can offer to do something. Then I met Jeroen and I felt not only that I liked him, but specifically his engagement and his dedication, I would say, to really wanting to serve Mother Earth just inspired me to do this together and to create the Inner Green Deal. I feel very grateful for this opportunity.
Speaker #0
Let's move ahead in time by one year. It is now 2019. The EU Commission has just announced the Green Deal. At a meeting at the EU, together with Fernando Garcia, Lian and Jeroen realized that something is missing when addressing climate change. That the link between inner and outer, the human dimension, needs to be included into the way we approach sustainability. At this point, Jeroen and Lian connect on a deep level. and proceed with dedication. This is when an initiative is born. It will grow into a non-profit by 2022. Its name is the Inner Green Deal.
Speaker #2
I heard about Jeroen through my Avaris business partner. He said there's this guy in Brussels, he does also something with mindfulness, and he will join us in our next director's meeting. I think we talked about coaching. about some coaching skills, how to do a good coaching process. I felt Jeroen was very curious. He asked very good questions. By that time, we even didn't talk about climate change or anything that had to do with this. Later on, I was also introduced to Fernando. We met with Chris together and started to talk about climate change and its consequences and impacts on human life. And I really felt... very strongly in that meeting connected to Jeroen, because he had very similar ideas and words. And what I really liked was his approach to use the middle way, to not say it's going to be terrible, nor to ignore it, but to say the crisis that we are in can help us to reconnect to our human nature. It can help us to reconnect to to the ability to collaborate in a very human way and create a good human world. I appreciated that so much because it was on my thinking all the time. I don't want to become an activist and be very, let's say, in the tendency, very aggressive, nor do I want to do nothing. So I want to invite everyone, even those who would deny that there is a climate change. I want to have a good conversation.
Speaker #1
What I enjoy working with Liana is that we both share Something that we can only express non-verbally. And I'll try to do that. Or at least it has a sound. And the sound is oomph. And this may not make sense to you. But what I, I'll try to describe it a little bit. We both are quite passionate and motivated people and engaged. Yes, I mean, we have a life behind us and we've learned to be reasonable from time to time. We learn to listen and relate. And there's this whole... deep inquiry about the meaning of life, which we both explored. And yet there is this sense of energy that I really appreciate in Lianne. She's a force of nature. I don't know if I can reveal your age, but she looks at least 15 years younger. She is very energetic. It's a pleasure to work together because we both have this sense of, well, it's tough, but we can do this and we just do it. Also, there's this sense of... oomph about it. You know, let's not hold back. And it's not from a superficial, let's just be active, but also from a kind of experienced sense of, well, you know, something really needs to shift. And Mother Nature and the Earth is counting on us simple people to do something meaningful. From that sense of care and motherhood and wanting to do the right thing comes the sense of All right, let's put our energy behind it and roll up our sleeves. When we started working together, things started to progress. Yeah, we know a few things about the mind and changing minds and habit change and all of that. We were really curious and we were also honest in that, yeah, we didn't know that much in the beginning about sustainability. We just decided to use this podcast actually to ask people. and to have meaningful conversations, to listen. And then based on that, take the next step and then take another step and take another step, even though we were not always necessarily completely ready. But I think this willingness to commit no matter what is something that I really appreciate about our collaboration.
Speaker #0
By the time Lian and Jeroen move forward together, they both look back on an extensive history in contemplative practices. Lian with 45 years of leadership development, as well as contemplative studies and practice, and Jeroen with 20 plus years of broad experience in mindfulness and leadership development. When you are inspired by Joanna Macy, Thich Nhat Hanh, and so many others, how do you embrace the challenges of climate change? Jeroen and Lian sometimes refer to it by the word oomph. Another metaphor could be to attend the crisis fully aware. with a soft front and a strong back. But what exactly does that mean?
Speaker #1
To start with an open front, to start with an open heart, and be curious, and, you know, explore life, explore people who are in front of you, even if they look different or have very different views, and to relate and to be curious. And then comes this moment when people... ask something of us that is sometimes difficult or sometimes very different. And then comes the strong back, I feel. This sense of standing for something that is important and sensing that in the body and feeling that it's right is when we sometimes can lean into either the conversation or the difficulty or whatever is going on. And You're not alone in this. So when you're standing up or when you're leaning in, you're sometimes pushing a little bit. It's not us. It's not our ego necessarily. It is all of us. And it is my dog. It is my family. It is the people around us, people on the other side of the world who expect. Nothing less than that we do our best. The Bodhisattva story and the underlying tradition is truly very beautiful and something to explore. And if you're not so familiar with it, I would highly invite you to read about it.
Speaker #2
Having a strong back that helps you also to walk through time and space in an upright manner also has to do with dignity, with strength. And at the same time, this back gives you a hold so that you can lean against almost this strong back. You can trust, you can develop confidence that you can lean against this strong back. And therefore, it's just natural that you can open up and soften your front, embracing no matter what is there. It doesn't matter whether it's painful, whether it's beautiful, whether it's new, whether it's... foreign it doesn't matter you just simply embrace it because you can trust your back That's why I think also the Inner Green Deal, the name itself is so beautiful because it sits right between the soft front and the strong back. It brings together the ability to open up even to the disaster and at the same time to trust that everything will be okay because it is as it is anyway. That way, I feel we can also touch impermanence, because everything is anyway impermanent. How do we relate to it? How do we do this? And my wish is that every person in this world, every human, has the chance to feel that strong back and soft front. Because if we can feel that, not think it is there, but really feel it. and connect to it. We actually connect to our human nature. And then everything will just emerge from that naturally.
Speaker #0
So what is it that changes when we connect to our human nature? And what is it that Lian and Jeroen are experiencing when they train other leaders in bringing together the inner and the outer dimension and in fostering a personal and professional inner Green Deal?
Speaker #2
The first thing that comes to my mind is the word listening deeply. When people start this kind of journey, they start to develop the ability to listen to themselves, to become more aware of their inner world, their inner voices, their emotions, their beliefs, their longings. At the same time, really, they start to listen also to their environment. They start to listen to their children. They start to listen more deeply to their spouses, friends. Then just naturally it expands and they open up their senses and they start to hear the birds, which they haven't really heard before. And they start to listen to the sounds of maybe the trees or the water. So that kind of listening, or we could also say the rise of awareness. start suddenly to become part of their lives. And that changes a lot because suddenly you hear something, you see something, you smell something that you haven't done before. And that changes the relationship, how people relate to these inner and also outer phenomena.
Speaker #1
I think it's deeply personal. What I can describe is a sense of connection. you recognize that we're actually very similar and you quickly go beyond kind of the socially held views and just recognize that when you open up, we're actually very similar and what we do impacts others and how we show up impacts others. And you can more closely see the connection in movement. It's no longer something that you just... experience when you're very still and you're very serious and you're just listening, but also something that you can start, therefore, bring into action. With that comes a certain confidence, I think, that what you do is fundamentally coming from a good place. And once you sense that to be true and you feel that you're doing it for the right reasons and others too, I feel suddenly we can become much more ambitious, much more encompassing. So it's no longer about the smaller things in life, but we can step into something bigger, knowing that we're not alone in that. The sense of courage increases and impact increases. Even in situations where perhaps habitually or perhaps when I was younger, I might feel very small or stumble. I feel now much more... trusting that what I do matters and that what others do matters as well, and that we can meet somewhere there and therefore can have much more impact than perhaps we might have thought a long time ago. And it's just about right because we need to do something. Essentially, this notion of unlocking potential, this notion of, as they say in French, il y a plus en vous. There's more within you, just untapping deeper. resources essentially that are broadly shared among all of us if we allow ourselves to open up for it.
Speaker #2
There is a history of separation and we all come from that. So the narrative that we have internalized is me and you. Or out there is nature. To reconnect to ourselves and to reconnect to others. and to nature is a major step in realizing that everything is interdependent. And stepping away from competitive behavior is also a huge step. We are educated to compete with everyone, organizations, between leaders. There's a huge competition going on. To suddenly realize that we are all the same. We all suffer, we all long for happiness, we all will die one day. So we are the same, and not only the humans, also with other beings. When we realize that this interdependency is there and that we are all the same, then you can change or stop changing automatically almost your actions. And doing it collectively with others together gives us the strength to step maybe... into actions that we would never do alone because we don't have enough energy or we don't have the trust or the courage to do so.
Speaker #1
The beautiful thing is that it's also at the same time very nourishing while your impact is increasing and while you're stepping up and perhaps are taking more on, feeling this sense of connection, feeling more in tune with yourself. people around you and being closer to nature when you do the when you act therefore it feels very energizing also gives you a sense of energy and nourishment and therefore making it also easier to sustain and yes of course there are times when you need to rest But also that resting becomes more conscious and becomes easier somehow.
Speaker #2
So what I observe when we work with leaders is that they very slowly, step by step, start actually to trust the group. And when you trust a group, you can lean into that group. You can follow the group. And therefore, in a way, through the group, also connect better to yourself. And realizing, I mean, sometimes there are very small, tiny changes, but they mean a lot to people who are still in that fragmented, very speedy, busy world. Just that creating that little space where for one moment they feel themselves and can express what they feel can be a huge shift. The difference between short-term and long-term thinking and also systems way of thinking, so that they see that even tiny actions can have a huge impact. That's such a game changer for them, that they really start to see their ability of impact, which they haven't seen before.
Speaker #1
Something that I had to learn as well as a social entrepreneur is that it depends on your outlook. Gradually, I had to discover that the kind of challenges that we're taking on here are not something that can be fixed immediately. It is something about culture, about leadership, about mindset. These things have to evolve. And as individuals, we can try to collaborate to change the narrative and to change the story and to change how we approach. what we prioritize, why we do it, and we can try to open the mind for that. But this is something that takes decades, probably. Recently, I was with a group in the forest, and we asked ourselves, what is our vision of resilience? And what is your personal story of resilience? It just struck me. So I'm about to turn 50 next year. We're now 2022, and I would love to remain active. and make a contribution until 2050. And I'm just deeply curious and at a certain level confident.
Speaker #0
And if we go through this long-term shift in mindset that actually we could experience a society that's much more just, much more positive, much more joyful, and much more green. And then it just struck me in the forest saying this is something of a lifetime. And I would look to my own health and to my own way of living as to something that would be able to bridge those next 30 years, which are so critical. I would love to see my children grow up during that period and embrace life and be able to enjoy life and not be living in fear. And I know that that is actually still a somewhat limited perspective. I know one could talk about this is one generation, perhaps. How about the next seventh generation? How about the children of my children? Will my children have children? They want children. And what about those children afterwards? And how do we move into next century. And I think if we slow down and reflect more deeply on that, it'd be very, very difficult not to shift whatever it is you're doing and make this a real priority and just deeply ask yourself, well, how can I contribute? And what would I concretely start doing differently? What can I do to really sustain life? And that question has become much more present for me.
Speaker #1
It's a little bit different for me. He turns 50. I just turned 65, which is a huge difference. I'm not so patient. I think it's very important to understand that you cannot pull the grass. It's as simple as that. If you pull it, it's a very disruptive movement then. And development is a process. It's not something you can influence or you can determine. I think everyone knows what needs to be done. And yet the human being somehow has always this gap between knowing and doing. I'm even not sure if I need to see the results so much of the work. We can do our work step by step. And then hopefully it has impact to also relax into that, not pushing too hard, nor to be passive. This middle path is for me the right thing to do. Sometimes. That's my experience in that kind of work. You work with someone and suddenly seven years later, you meet this person and they say, this was really, really life changing when I worked with you together.
Speaker #2
Pulling the grass does not accelerate the change we sometimes want to see so urgently. But maybe it helps to mindfully notice where seeds are already sprouting and slowly starting to grow.
Speaker #1
I can see that slowly HR and the sustainability department start to see that they have to work together, that developing people and people's mindset and at the same time to really very concretely do something with their SDGs, no matter in what direction or what they choose to focus on, that they have to work together.
Speaker #0
Sustainability and... kind of the people from learning and development and HR working together. It's an interesting one and it's a non-traditional one. We are now working with a number of organizations where sustainability has meant it made the top one, two, three priority of the organization. And I think learning and development people are used to thinking, OK, so we have a strategy. How do we translate that into a learning culture? How can we allow the organization to embrace this? Well, that requires time and space and programs and real conscious effort. Sustainability folk are also really keen in that because they have now much more attention. And in the past, they've sometimes struggled perhaps to get the attention from the organization. And now the spotlight is turning on them. And I see many of them reaching out to the organization. People focusing specifically on the topic of engagement. How do you engage an organization around sustainability? What is important and how do we do that? And how can HR and sustainability collaborate there?
Speaker #1
What makes me feel confident and also happy is the collaboration with Veroon and our team. I couldn't do this alone. Being in that partnership gives me a lot of positive energy. And second of all, I just see their... so many really great initiatives in this world. There are so many young but also older people in this world who started NGOs, who started projects to really make this world a better place for future generations. It feels like we are just simply part of this wave in a very passionate and dedicated way. It is so difficult in this digitalized world to create space in your mind to shift your mind. Because people are so incredibly busy, also leaders, and it's not their fault. It's just the way how we relate to this digital world. They're so busy that it is very, very difficult to calm down, to sense and feel and connect.
Speaker #0
I see my children being, in many ways, much more caring and have a very different relationship with nature. than perhaps we were brought up to be with. Not to say that everything is rosy now, but I do feel that there's a lot of awareness. They act with a lot of courage, which I think is quite beautiful to see. And I also am quite positive about how increasingly leaders in more traditional roles are honestly opening up. and becoming perhaps more humble in that they know that the challenges are huge. I do feel that there's an increasing awareness of what the challenges are like and how difficult it is to change an organization and the entire supply chain and the entire world and the ecosystem. I do feel, therefore, that leaders are becoming more willing to examine what it is they can do to have more impact, to collaborate, to align their values and wonder how they can inspire people more deeply. Because they know that command and control doesn't work and they know that the challenges are big. So I feel there's an increasing willingness to work on these deeper dimensions of mindset and to do what it takes and therefore also to take time for that, which... there hasn't always been in this kind of rat race. And I feel that once the perspective of KPIs and shareholder return and all of that has now shifted to one of stewardship and serving, and I, of course, it's not with everyone, but with an increasing group of leaders in both private and public organization, then with this shift in focus and the why shifting. How it starts to shift as well, how we relate to each other, how we lead, how we show up is shifting. That's beautiful. And I think that's encouraging. Remember that we don't necessarily need to wait until we have convinced everybody to start changing. And simply starting with a group of people in your organization or where you live, start saying, well, where are we as people? And what can we do? That is beautiful. And I think that is, regardless of where you are, very hopeful. It feels like a little bit of an awakening, one can say so. And therefore, it's beautiful to be part of that. That's the meaning that we are getting from our work, to be a small part of that shift in mindset, shift in leadership, shift in narrative.
Speaker #1
I can see the changes in myself step by step. I'm not 100% a green person, but I struggle. And I work constantly on becoming one. But it's a never-ending story. I will never be perfect. So I have to be very friendly to myself also. Even though I am offering programs called the Inner Green Deal, I'm working on this in a very light and easy way without fighting too strongly and blaming myself for maybe not being the perfect, so to say, green person.
Speaker #0
What really gives me hope is, in the end, the joy of doing what's right. Of course, we can talk about the carbon footprint and we're not perfect. Although I think looking back over the last 10, 20 years, we've come some way, fortunately. But there is something that gives me joy when I talk about handprint. And this is something I had to discover relatively recently about... The other concept, instead of footprint, of course, it's always about less and that can feel negative. But there's also something about a handprint. And that is about what is the positive impact that you have on the world? Again, if I just look at my own life from advising boards about which KPI should come into a long-term incentive plan or advising on executive remuneration or some of these things to helping people shift, open their hearts. embrace their role, change, and have impact on the world. I mean, it just feels like change is possible and it feels good. The fact that it feels good is so encouraging because I trust that ultimately people will follow their hearts, will want to feel good, will want to feel more happy, will want to feel that they're part of the solution or want to feel that they make a meaningful contribution. If we give people the space and time to slow down and to really look at that, my experience has been... overwhelmingly positive that people embrace that ultimately. It may sometimes take time, but ultimately it shifts. Once you see that in yourself, you recognize that with others too. And that is ultimately very inspiring.
Speaker #1
One last thing. What makes me feel very happy and very confident is that every day is a good day. And that I learned that every day, no matter how that day is, is a good day of life. Because it is how it is. The other thing what makes me feel very happy is that I am going to have a dog next year. It's very important. It sounds so funny maybe, but if Jeroen and I wouldn't take care of our own happiness, we won't be able to do the job we do. So taking care of one's own joyfulness, you know, whether it's dancing or climbing trees or being successful in your job. or whatever it is, to recognize that there are things in life that trigger joyfulness is so crucial to cope with all the challenges that we have.
Speaker #0
Beautiful.
Speaker #2
How may anybody of us contribute to a positive change? And what kind of inner work would be helpful on this journey? I hope that Lian's and Jeroen's story has inspired you to find places to start in your professional and private life. Here are some themes from this episode you could contemplate further on. What is my own, personal or professional inner Green Deal? How do I strengthen my back and soften my front so I can fully attend to what is around me? And where do I find joy on this path? If you enjoyed this episode, please consider sharing and subscribing or leaving a review. In doing so, you make it easier for people to discover our podcast. We thank you for your support and look forward to meeting you at one of our programs or our monthly community event. To find out more, visit innergreendeal.com or use the links in the show notes.

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