- Speaker #0
I always feel emotional about it because as I see it, Sam, our creative, our creativity, our creative inner self, that's our life force. That's who we really are.
- Speaker #1
Welcome to Nerd Divergent Spot. I'm your host, Sam Marion. My pronouns are he, him, and I am a mostly nerd divergent therapist, speaker, and creator. My work focuses on all things nerd diversity, but my particular interests aren't autism. ADHD, Learning Differences, and Learning Disabilities. Today's guest is Jacob Nordby. Jacob, would you please introduce yourself to the listeners?
- Speaker #0
Well, first of all, Sam, thanks for inviting me on. I'm really, I've been excited about this. And yes, I know we'll get into some more of this later, but I'm a writer. I'm a father, father of three neurodiverse children, one on the spectrum. I'm grateful to be here, grateful to have found some paths to healing that have allowed me to have my life and work work together better.
- Speaker #1
Before we continue, I've got a quick disclaimer. This podcast is for information purposes only and should not be seen as a replacement for therapy, healthcare, or legal advice. Jacob, I'm really excited to have you here. I'm a big fan of your work. It's been influential for me in my own processes. I look forward to diving a little bit more so that others who don't know your work can learn more and understand why I appreciate it so much. So let's just dive in, though. First question here, what has your journey with Nerdvergence looked like?
- Speaker #0
Wow, I love the question, partly because it wasn't until I think I was about 49, my mother became a therapist, and she took the battery of ADD questions, gave it to me. and and And I came out all whatever, all thumbs up. Yeah, you definitely have ADD. And I went and told some people about it. And they're like, oh, yeah, that's not a surprise. Because before, even one of the books you just mentioned, one of the books I was writing, I turned into the publisher with a lot of things that I called crashing segue alerts. Because that's how my mind worked, you know. And the publisher came back and said, we can't do that. I'm like, oh, okay. That was a device I would use in conversation often, Sam, to let people know I'm getting ready to go completely off to a different topic. So, and then my oldest son is on the spectrum, and we diagnosed around 13. And so that really began this whole inquiry in my life, like, okay, how are these things connected? How can we work better with them, you know?
- Speaker #1
I love the way you took reference that looking at how those are connected, right? I think that's Such it. You know, you started by talking about your mom and then yourself and your son and just looking at all the connections there. I think that's really powerful.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. Well, I love that there's so much more information now. And my son was diagnosed on the spectrum at age 13, you know, very verbal, did great in school. And they basically said, just be nice to him. And so I love the fact that there's you out there being a therapist and a creator in this space. I just think it's such a benefit to our world, Sam.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, I say that to people a lot, just a bit about how we're learning so much so quickly right now. And what people didn't know, I was talking to somebody just a couple of days ago about their child who just graduated high school. And they're saying, you know, when they look back and how what they know now, you know, if they just know that they said, yeah, but. You couldn't have known this 12, 15 years ago in the way you can now. It's just a different world.
- Speaker #0
Yeah.
- Speaker #1
So I'm going to keep going here. Next question. Your work so often centers creativity as a tool for healing. And side note, I started this podcast as a tool for healing. I had a bad day on a Friday, and I went for a long walk on Saturday morning. I dropped my car off to get an oil change. I decided just to walk home. Uh, the three miles I walked very briskly because it was, I thought there were sidewalks. There weren't, uh, for a lot of the stretches. Um, and, uh, by the time I got home, I had this podcast planned out the structure format because I knew I needed some kind of a project to tackle. Um, and within like three weeks I had a trailer up, so I, I moved quick on it, but that was, so I am partially inspired by some of your work to, to embrace creativity for this. But... This is about you. How did you come to see creative expression as a necessary part of emotional and or nervous system repair?
- Speaker #0
Wow, I love that question. And I'm confident that I didn't make that connection. outside of an experience. So I had just, this was 2008, 2009, I had just gone through, you know, losing everything in the mortgage business, the finance world, several businesses, losing house, everything. I'd moved to Austin, Texas, and my father gave me a copy of The Artist's Way by Julia Cameron. And he said, I think this will help. And I left it in a box somewhere, and eventually I took it to this warehouse job that I had, Sam, and opened it up one morning. And I was in so much turmoil, you know, my life was upside down, didn't know how I'd get started again. And I began to do those exercises, the morning pages and the walks and all of it. And I mean, it was this amazing experience of, okay, I think I can find my way back to life right now. So that's a short answer. But yes, and then since then, I've just watched it blossom in my own life. And when I'm going through really rough times, and the same with my clients and people I work with, often we can just find our way back to... some kind of sanity through expression, through inner exploration, you know?
- Speaker #1
If we go back to the warehouse days and you had this book that someone gifted to you, your dad gifted to you and said, I think you should read this. But how did you decide to actually, you know what, I'm going to, okay, fine, I'll try and take that step forward.
- Speaker #0
Oh, wow. I think it was just probably despair, Sam. I honestly, felt so completely stripped of anything that could help me figure out what to do next. And that was a foreign experience for me. So I remember one morning just looking at it and sitting in the box and going, well, I don't know, I'll pick it up and take it with me. I mean, I started reading, and the first couple of pages, I started crying. I feel emotional about it now because it was such a powerful experience. And so at that point, when it touched me, I'm like, oh, yeah, this is something I really need to spend some time with.
- Speaker #1
That sounds so powerful and life-changing. Just the idea of sitting there and starting to embrace any kind of exercise. And I don't know, I think about my work as a therapist and how often, you know, yeah, it's great to talk about stuff. But we actually have to take some action. Albert Ellis, who is one of the sort of foundational people in brief therapy, he's the creator of RET, rational emotive therapy, which developed. or kind of turned into rebt which is sort of the foundation of cbt today okay like foundational person uh and in reference to psychodynamic work where they just sort of processed non-stop and so you know gained a whole lot of insight but they hardly did a damn thing to change it was sort of the full quote right it's that action step uh that i think so powerful that you didn't just read the book but you embraced exercises uh and that set off a chain
- Speaker #0
I, yeah. And I think, I think that's what I was really looking for. Sam was not, cause I'm, you know, I've always been a reader. I've always loved to learn, but I knew I, somehow I just knew that I more information in my head wasn't gonna, wasn't gonna make the difference. If something was going to have to happen in the real world, you know,
- Speaker #1
got it. Yeah. I'm going to keep going. Next question, uh, in the creative cure, which, uh, is sitting next to me, uh, you write about reclaiming our inner artist. What patterns have you noticed in how neurodivergent people lose touch with their creativity and what helps them to reconnect?
- Speaker #0
Well, speaking for myself as a neurodivergent and then watching my children, my oldest son had a couple of suicide attempts later when he was going to college. And I actually had to step out of school and felt like he was really broken. And that... turned out to be a huge breakthrough, Sam, because he came back from the medical facility where he'd gotten a lot of help. And he said, Dad, I feel so much lighter for the first time in my life. I'm not carrying around this mask. I'm thinking like maybe I can just be myself in the world. And I feel like that's probably one of the key things is so many of us have to learn to mask so that we can appear to be normal and fit in. And so then we aren't listening to our bodies. We're not. paying attention to the interoception or intuition. We're simply trying to somehow desperately fit in. And I mean, there are a lot of reasons, but I feel like that's one of the main reasons I've experienced. And also what I hear from a lot of people is it's just so exhausting to try to keep the mask in place when I have all these worlds inside of me, you know.
- Speaker #1
If we looked at a headshot of you from, let's say, 2007, and then a headshot of you for more recently, Aside from some of the, we'll say, natural aging process, would we see a difference in these two humans?
- Speaker #0
Wow, you did some research, didn't you? Yeah, I was about 70 pounds heavier back then. And not that the weight was, you know, by itself a problem. It was just such an expression of I didn't, I was out of touch with my life, with myself. I was in so much pain. And yeah, if you go back and look at that picture, it's now I just have so much compassion for that guy. You know, yes, the answer is yes.
- Speaker #1
What other ways would we see you masked? I mean, I can hear that, the stress you're carrying. But we should Are there physical ways that we would have seen a mask that you found over time that maybe it's the creative world has allowed you to unmask more?
- Speaker #0
Well, yeah, it's funny. I've had people tell me, Jacob, back then when you laughed, it sounded so stiff. And when you smiled, it was like you were pasting it on. And the truth is, yeah, I haven't ever had anybody ask me that, Sam. It's a great question. I love it because, yes, I have this sense of openness.
- Speaker #1
um and i'm gonna be okay and so i think it shows up in in my face i think it shows up you know uh yeah that makes a lot of sense to me authenticity that's there um i talk a lot about masculine people because how can we not uh it's so common and i think the way you described it was so beautiful and just the urges to fit in and how it shows up um i think about sort of the different worlds. we try to navigate, right? Because I came out of corporate world at one point in time. Then I actually worked in state government for a little while as well, and sort of the urge to fit in, to look a certain way. I used to wear a tie to work every day because I felt like I needed to have a certain appearance and things like that. And I don't wear a tie very often anymore. I still have a lot because I like them, but I don't wear them. So, yeah, so there's a lot of that. I think about the physical ways we mask and then the behavioral ways that people mask and unmask. And I wonder how much that also is a part of embracing or disconnecting from creativity.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, yeah. God, there's so much there.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, let's keep going. We'll come back to some of this. All right. You also often speak about the power of sensitivity and difference. What strengths do you see in neurodivergent creatives that are especially needed in the world right now?
- Speaker #0
I'm listening to Ocean Vuong's book, On Earth We Are Briefly Gorgeous. And after I started reading the book, I went and researched him a bit, and it turns out he's a poet as well. And that made so much sense. And so there's this intense, there's all these antennae we have up. Sam, and we're taught to turn them down or off when we're very young so that we can fit in, so that we can conform our thoughts and our behavior to what the machine world needs. And I don't say that as some horrible conspiracy. It's just we've built this all together, and it tries to force us into these conformist little widgets. And I just see neurodivergent people and those who are willing to let their colors show. We're the canaries in the coal mine. We're picking up on information that people who are maybe a little less sensitive... don't as early. And we also were great at spotting the connection between divergent patterns, like this information and that information. We make the connection between them when we bring it forward and say, y'all, can you see this? You know? So again, there's so much more there, but that's one of the ways I see.
- Speaker #1
Do you see the more that people do embrace that they're What's the word I use? I'm looking at my notes here. Sort of the inner creative, the power of that sensitivity. As people embrace some of that, does that... I'm trying to think how to word this, Jacob. How often do you see that in the creative space sort of go along with the unmasking process?
- Speaker #0
Oh, my God. Now it's become a stage I can anticipate. And this happened to me very early on. I was doing this online workshop called Creative Unboot Camp. So I was not going to be a drill instructor. And I watched people who thought they were showing up to my very earliest ones. They thought they were showing up to a writing workshop. And what we were doing is we began doing inner work. And we began searching for the roots of the things that had held us back. And people were pouring out their stories. And all of a sudden, these people are writing poetry. These people are expressing themselves. And, and... And it's like watching in the old C.S. Lewis story when the wicked witch's spell goes away and everything comes alive again from being frozen. I love watching that happen. I'm not sure that I answered your question, but that's the first thing that came to mind.
- Speaker #1
What is that like for you? So your internal experience of watching that happen, because that sounds amazing.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. I mean, I always feel emotional about it because as I see it, Sam, our creativity, our creative inner self, that's our life force. That's who we really are. I'm not a theologian. You know, we might call that our soul self, whatever it is. It's the part of us. that is so much bigger than the personality we construct to operate, to survive in the world. And so for me, watching people put down really heavy armor and begin to show up as themselves, it's what makes me come alive.
- Speaker #1
If I remember correctly, in your book, Blessed are the Weird, there's a whole section that's sort of to the healers.
- Speaker #0
Yeah.
- Speaker #1
And that language stuck with me. I think that there was a time, you know, by education, I'm a social worker. And there was a time when I think that I really felt strongly about different disciplines sort of for us to hold firm to our space. And that opened things up for me. And I realized I don't consider myself a creative or an artist. I didn't. But I use a lot of creativity. in my therapy work. And I have for many years without sort of formal training in that. And I have gotten some over time. But I remember just listening to the audio book. It was a family road trip. So I have an AirPod in the ear and listening to my own audio book. And just how striking that was for me in the language of healer. And we started embracing that terminology. I wonder how much that also just opens up How many people...
- Speaker #0
have powers within them to support healing in others in all these different ways god i love that story um and what you said i think we we put these things into categories including the arts you know well i'm a writer i'm a painter i'm a whatever and then people who are don't identify with those things they feel like oh i'm on the outside of that and to me sam and right you are a healer clearly and um For me, when I'm talking with people about healing, a lot of times it's like, we got to remember that healing isn't supposed to be this like forever, grim, always going down into the shadow and the pain, and clearly it requires that. But also, the very idea of healing is that something becomes whole, it becomes healthy, it becomes, it becomes, it thrives again. And to me, anyone who is helping other people become whole and healthy and thrive. And that doesn't have to make its way out in the arts. It can make its way in what we're doing. Like this currency of energy and the love you bring to what you're doing, to me, that is the essence of expressing creatively. And to me, creativity is meant to be like the blood in our veins or the sap in a tree. Like, you know, the branch that the sap is not flowing to, it dies. So for me, if I can help us reframe the idea, it's like, no. Creativity is this vital energy, it's our aliveness, and it's meant to come out in the way we relate to each other and ourselves. And it's meant to come out in all the different parts of life. And so if people go, I feel stymied creatively, it's amazing to me, Sam, when I sit with somebody, and often they're neurodivergent, often they've just kind of gotten locked down because they're over too many tabs open or whatever. And I'm like, well, let's start, let's go oblique, let's go over here. Tell me what else you love to do. Well, I love to... plant flowers on my back patio, but I haven't done it this year. I'm like, well, why don't you put the book down that you're writing? And why don't you go plant some flowers? And I'll come back in two weeks and go, oh my God, that worked. Participating with life, with healing, it works, you know?
- Speaker #1
Yeah, that's, I could think a lot of examples, but I guess to me, the willingness to, to even just to create for three minutes with some random medium, right? I love using Play-Doh in sessions because it's really cheap. And due to, I guess due to COVID, I became germaphobic enough that I viewed a single use. Somebody use it, they take it with them. They've got their own little thing of Play-Doh now. It's, you know, I bought on sale when it's whatever. But, you know, it's an equalizer in many ways. Because if I have a family in my office. You give the six-year-old and then mom and dad each their own thing of Play-Doh and have them make something. It is very equalizing. But I get to watch. that one of these you know frequently there's at least one parent who's like oh i don't know about this and that's not and then they start to get into it they start to enjoy it it's tactile and they're you know creating a little animal out of play-doh but it's still three minutes usually they feel safer i'll set a timer so you got three minutes to create an animal and that helps because i'm not you know it's it's it's limited right but just that and to see people open up and that's i get this little glimpse But how much that opens up the family's ability to start to heal, to start to shift things just a little bit. You know, these little moments. I love that. I don't know. I see all of it. It's so important. And so I do wonder how often you get, as you guide people on these processes to create, how could it not open up more of the internal stuff for them?
- Speaker #0
Well, I love the example you just shared too, Sam, if you don't mind me coming back to you. Sure. So I just love, I love what you developed there and the idea that it's, it's an equalizer. I think that's one thing that blocks so many of us in this world in terms of creating the things that we would love, whether it's, you know, in the arts or in any other area of life is that, and especially social media has created or turned up the volume on the sense of hierarchy. You know, if you don't have a million followers or... You know, people aren't just buying your stuff everywhere, then maybe your stuff's not that good. And the truth is, the first draft, as Anne Lamott said, is always going to be shitty. You know, it's a shitty first draft for that reason. So watching a child do what they do naturally, and that's make things and shapes, and then watching the parents who probably haven't touched clay for decades start doing it. I mean, I love that because it is, it's inviting us all back into some innocence. It's like, this doesn't have to be good. or perfect, or even look good. I'm having fun doing it. It feels good. Oh, and by the way, I can celebrate the little elephant my kid just made that actually is better than what I made.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, it is powerful. And so, I don't know, go back to the idea of healers. I mean, there's so many different paths that we do follow and, you know, the ways that people exist and all the healing that can be found. you know, where I exist now, I don't, I don't know how healing can exist without elements of creativity. I don't know how therapists work without incorporating some elements, even just in sort of creative problem solving with people, because everybody's life's a little bit different. And, you know, years ago, I had the chance, I was at a big major, you know, international trauma conference. And on the stage were people who developed different trauma modalities. the person who created EMDR, person who created internal family systems, like sort of the big names is who's on this panel. And, and, uh, Francis Shapiro who developed EMDR said, you can't just know my, my therapy. If all you can do is the one thing you're a technician, a clinician can do multiple. And I was early in my career that I heard that and I was a big driver for me. Um, but yeah, if all we do is do one formulaic thing, then what are we doing versus, you know, I understand maintaining some structure, but I did embracing creativity, doing things differently to meet people's needs and helping guide people into opening up that inner, you know, I just come back to it, inner creativity, because that's, we need that for healing.
- Speaker #0
I have a bit of a question that might be a little off, seem to be off track, but I'm curious in your work, how many, how many of your neurodivergent clients. Would you say are, would also, you know, scale really high on the empathy scale or be called themselves empaths in some way?
- Speaker #1
Most. Yeah. Most, you know, the ones that I hesitate to say, I think the folks who would not identify as such, I think probably have enough wounds within that. it feels unsafe to identify as an empath and instead sort of have a, have a wall up. Um, whereas other people, you know, we can sit in the therapy room, we can talk about how much they feel the energy from around them. Um, you know, I talk a lot about energy with folks. I don't have any sort of formal training about understanding energy, but I certainly see it and can feel it. Uh, and that's, uh, that, that's sort of enough for me to, to, to embrace the notion of it. Uh, yeah, but people who, who feel, that strongly. And some of this, I see it in the neurodivergent spaces. My background is trauma therapist and I see it there. I tell the story that I used to work at a women's treatment center. I'd run a group. It's all mornings. We'd kind of have a check-in, 45 minutes, take a break. They'd all go outside and smoke for the most part. We'd come back in. And when my oldest child was a baby and I was just real low on sleep, I just had a really blank affect. And they went outside and they all thought that I was individually mad at them. Each one of them was like, ah, he's really mad at me today. He's really mad. And that's the trauma imprint they experienced too. And so what they decided was. oh, he's mad at all of us. And it was just that I was tired, but they were perceiving and entered something from me. And then there's a way to interpret it due to trauma. But yeah, it's sort of this, how widespread it is to how common. I think some of these conversations we're having right now, we're sort of identifying folks. Jacob, I think we're like five, 10 years away from recognizing how much more pervasive all of this is in society. How many people... We'll continue to unmask, you know, how many people will relate to traits of their hearing people. I think there will be a jealousy of like, gosh, they get to embrace that. I want some of that. And I think our world is going to shift around that. I firmly believe it. I think my field is slowly evolving around and supporting people towards that. But, yeah, I really do. Ten years from now, it's going to be different conversations.
- Speaker #0
Well, agreed. I'm just astonished by, you know, my kids are all of Gen Z. And as a group, I just love Gen Z. They're just, you know, they're almost like the new hippies, because my parents were hippies before I was born. You know, so they're definitely, they're not buying in. They're not buying this whole thing. But the Gen Z, I'm listening to them have conversations with each other and watching what they're posting. And there is so much more emotional intelligence. And there's so much more openness to. the differences and embracing that and celebrating it. And so to your point, yes, I think the fact that we're hearing so much more about neurodiversity and, you know, even these things like, why is there so much more autism? And I read something yesterday, I think it was the New Yorker was like, well, because we are actually acknowledging it more deeply,
- Speaker #1
right?
- Speaker #0
It's always been around. So, and, and by the way, that whole thing of, um, is somebody an empath or not? I view us all on the empathic spectrum, much like we're probably all on the narcissist spectrum at some point. So I don't like to have these big walls, like I'm an empath and you're not. But I will say that the people who always have, we've always had our antenna turned way up. The reason I asked you that question is connected to healing, because the therapeutic presence, the experience of that, whether it's in a clinical setting like yours or simply being out in the world, that presence. That sensitivity, that ability to step into and experience life through the eyes of another, that is deeply healing, whether or not we have a title as a healer of some kind. And so I just want all of your listeners who, they don't see themselves as healers or in some kind of healing profession, but they know because one of my kids was going to high school and they had a twin brother. And they're Gemini's and they're twins and they're now both trans, Sam. So we've got a lot going on there. But they were going to this big high school. And they kept calling me during the day saying, Dad, my stomach hurts, my head hurts. And this is not something Meg ever did. So finally, I said, what's going on? Like, really, what's happening? And they said, well, Dad, I'm actually, I don't know how to say this because I really care about these kids. But I have so many kids who find me who are in dark places. You know, they're depressed. Their parents are... drug addicts or they're going through all this trauma at home. And so I just feel like I'm constantly getting kind of dumped on and it's making me feel really actually sick. And we eventually found a different school that matched Meg really, really well. But that was this interesting wake-up call, like something about the energy Meg showed up with without evangelizing, without saying, come on to me, all you who are broken. Like it was just the energy. I'm guessing that a lot of your listeners have had experiences like that, where people just kind of find them and start pouring out their hearts. And I'm going to take a wild risk here and ask you, have you been one of those people in the world? Like people find you and say, Hey, I need help.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. I could tell stories of being in scenarios where, you know, I was the paying customer yet. That's what, you know, that's sort of what happened. And, you know, uh, 20 something years ago, I spent a couple of weeks at a Spanish language school in Guatemala. in a little small town and you know and most my time was spent walking around with my my teacher uh hearing about her personal problems kind of thing just like this is not what i pay for but
- Speaker #0
This is what we're doing. Okay. You know, it's sort of that, like this, this is not what I expected, but so even in other countries, I've encountered that. And so, yeah, it's, and I'll say it's sort of feeling some energy in the stress people care with. It is so much of the work I ended up doing therapeutically, trying to talk about boundaries and how do we do that? And how do we honor sort of how people perceive us and, you know, navigating some of that, because it is hard, especially young people. It's really, really hard. Um, you know, and when people are, I often say, you know, for like middle schoolers and high schoolers, um, the number one goal is not to be the most popular kid in school. The first goal is just to blend in and stay off the radar. And then if we can build onto it as like being cool or popular, but step one is just to be off the radar kind of thing, you know? And so when you're just trying to like be on the plus side of on the radar, just a little bit of like perceived positively, then. to set boundaries is such a scary thing and navigating that is, it's all very, very common. And then that leads to people in the workplace in their twenties, thirties, forties, fifties, still playing out that role and trying to figure out how to, how to navigate it. So yeah, we common conversation. So. I need to be mindful of time. I'm sort of watching that here. So I do want to start to wrap up, but I've really enjoyed this conversation and I can keep picking your brain some, but. But for listeners who do want to learn more, and I should say, and I'll plug it, you talk about different activities that you are doing in reading. You also offer up activities for people to do through your work, through your book. But for people who would like to engage with you more, learn more from you, where can they find you?
- Speaker #1
Oh, thank you. So they can go to my personal website, jacobnordby.com. I also want to mention a little tool. Sam, that's free for everyone. And it's called, it's called the creative self journal and it's creative self journal.com. So either direction, if they want to subscribe, they'll, if they download this free program, they'll be on my, on my list and they'll, they'll hear more from stuff I'm doing. But I love this process because it's, it asks three questions and even, and it's especially for people who don't like to journal, uh, cause you don't have to be a writer. It asks three questions and these three questions kind of help bring us home to ourselves. What do we, how do I feel right now? What do I need right now? what would I love to create, or sometimes when I'm going through a hard time, how would I love to feel right now? I'm offering that because there's a short audio and an ebook version of this that's available for free. So yeah, I would love to just offer that to your listeners. People who have journaled for a long time often find it's kind of refreshing to have a very simple format. And when I first put it out, I didn't think it was worth much, but I had some therapists call me and say, my clients are journaling for the first time with this process, which made me so happy. So... Yeah, I would love to offer that to your listeners. And if they subscribe to that, then they'll hear about the other stuff I'm up to.
- Speaker #0
Awesome. Certainly, those will be linked in the show notes, both those sites. So thank you for sharing those. So listeners can definitely go check that out and have a shortcut to get there. So, Jacob, thank you so much for joining me. Let me pick your brain a little bit and have this, to me, a very, really wonderful conversation. So thank you.
- Speaker #1
Well, can we just turn the screen off and go and have lunch somewhere? I would love to hear more from you. This has been an amazing conversation. And let me just say, Sam, thank you. Thank you for doing this work in the world. My God, the people who are your listeners, they're such treasures. The world needs us, and it needs us to be awake and alive and healthy. And so I love that you're doing your part to make the world a better place. It's a real honor to be here.
- Speaker #0
Uh, well, thank you so much. Uh, and to the listeners, this has been Nerd Averages Pot. Thank you for listening. If you enjoyed today's episode, share it with somebody else who could, who could benefit, who could learn from this, uh, give us a like, follow, subscribe. Thank you for being here.
