Transcription

• Speaker #0

  our life was like a snow globe and we just kind of shook it up.

• Speaker #1

  Hey guys, welcome to Nerd Avergent Spot. Sam here. And I just want to give you a quick preview of today's episode. Sunita is a phenomenal human who shares quite vulnerably about her experience with her own diagnoses, the diagnostic process a little bit there, and how she has embraced a nerd adversity affirming approach to her parenting. how that has evolved within her home. And I think there's just a lot of power in this vulnerability because if there's an area that I think people really, you know, the vulnerability really shows up, it is around parenting. And so she shares that in balancing sort of, you know, her professional goals, how she redefined success, really important elements like that. So I hope you stick around. I hope you enjoyed the episode. Give me a like, follow, subscribe, all the things, and share those with anybody who you think could benefit. Welcome to Nerdivergent Spot. I'm your host, Sam Marion. My pronouns are he, him, and I am a multiply nerdivergent therapist, speaker, and creator. My work focuses on all things nerdiversity, but my particular interests are in autism, ADHD, learning differences, and learning disabilities. Today's guest is Sunita Tice. Sunita. Please introduce yourself to the listeners.

• Speaker #0

  Thanks, Sam. I'm glad to be here. My name is Sunita Tice. I am an autistic ADHD and PDA mom of two neurodivergent kids. I'm also a writer, a speaker, a marketer, and an advocate for other individuals and families like mine. I do a lot of work, especially in faith-based spaces, helping churches and other faith-based churches. communities be more disability and neurodivergent inclusive. At the end of the day, I think my goal is just to help us be more gentle with each other and create spaces where we can all feel safe, seen, heard, and loved.

• Speaker #1

  Before we continue, I've got a quick disclaimer. This podcast is for information purposes only and should not be seen as a replacement for therapy, healthcare, or legal advice. I love that. And, Sunita, I'm just going to jump right into the first question with you here. Just want to dive into what has your journey with neurodivergence looked like?

• Speaker #0

  I think it's been a little bit disorienting and also grounding at the same time. I knew that there was something different about me growing up and also about my family as I had kids. I didn't have language for it until my son received an autism diagnosis. and then you I saw patterns about him and my daughter that were relatable. And then I saw things in her that were relatable to me. And eventually she and I received diagnoses within about a week of one another. But I think rather than it being discouraging, it was clarifying. So it gave me a framework to understand. decades of i think struggle and also celebrate strengths that i had always downplayed about myself um so i think of it less as discovering something new and more as naming something that had always been true about me so i i hear that um

• Speaker #1

  and it makes a lot of sense i think i hear that that kind of answer from a lot of people right of sort of like i didn't learn something new i just like found some language for it or you know want to describe it um And then people look back and go through this process of reflection, right? Like, oh, now that makes more sense. These things in their past. I assume that that's been part of your story as well. Is that a safe assumption?

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, we, I think we've just, it made a lot of things fall into place that were like. question marks or even sources of shame or confusion um and just kind of like redefining how we how we measured success how we we thought about the world how we i don't know just i think everything that okay it's it's like it like our life was like a snow globe and we just kind of shook it up Um, and, and as things settled back into place, everything just looked a little bit different.

• Speaker #1

  I love that imagery. Um, I really do. I'm going to keep going. Normally I don't move this quick, but I think the next question really does sort of stack on your answer. Well, uh, and it's the, you know, you, you have spoken about how discovery neurodivergence in yourself and your children has reshaped your family's rhythms. What were some of the important shifts that you've made in your home?

• Speaker #0

  The biggest shift was probably moving from one of control to collaboration. I had to unlearn, really, the idea of what a good family looked like, that we needed sort of traditional discipline, more rigid routines. For us, I think especially with PDA in the mix, that only created. friction, it created challenges, it created battle after battle. And so as we've better understood what all of our nervous systems need, we've created rhythms that honor regulation and connection first. I'm not saying we get it perfectly, but I think it means that we've adjusted schedules, we've let go of unnecessary demands, we've tried to communicate in ways that diffuse pressure, I think, rather than escalate it. And I think on a deeper level, that's... Emphasize choosing relationship first, valuing trust and belonging in our home above what normal needs to look like from the outside.

• Speaker #1

  How has that been received by sort of others around you in your life?

• Speaker #0

  It's a mixed bag. I think it's confusing to everybody. I think in. in the Indian community, in the South Asian community, like saying I'm homeschooling. It's like, what? Because there's such an emphasis on academics and there's such an emphasis on sort of these conventional measures of success. I think that's probably true in a lot of immigrant communities in general, because, you know, our parents want us to be successful. They want us to do well. They want us to, they want us to one-up them, right? Like they... They came here with a vision and a dream and a desire for us. And so when I say, hey, I'm actually going to blow up my career. I don't want corporate America. I want to be home with my kids. I want to make less money. I want to slow down my entire pace of life. We're not going to worry about grades. We're going to let our kids lead us. And everyone's like, wait, what? And then in the church, it's kind of the same. the same thing. We're saying, hey, actually, we really value their autonomy. We don't think obedience means this. We don't think discipline means that. We are emphasizing collaboration, and we actually think that godly parenting looks like this. And I mean, we've been really, really fortunate, I think, that the community around us, whether it's in my family, in my neighborhood. the church we attend, the homeschool communities we're a part of have really sincerely sought to understand us and to partner with us and to accommodate us. I know that's not true for everyone, but they've really sought to make sure we feel like we belong.

• Speaker #1

  And I'm glad you've had that experience. That is powerful the way you describe it. I'm going to keep going. The next question is... refers to how you often write about redefining concepts like grace, success, and achievement. And I think this piggybacks off what you were just saying, but what do those words mean to you now, especially through the lens of neurodivergence?

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, I used to think of success as being the most productive or of achievement as having like the maximum amount of recognition, right? I mean, even grace is like forgiveness when I fell short. But I think identifying my own neurodivergence or seeing it in my kids has turned that upside down in a lot of ways. I think a lot of those terms, success, let's say, is more like alignment of living in a way that is sustainable and true to who we are, to our core values. I would say even achievement can be defined that way, that it's not about comparison, but about finding creative ways to thrive in a world that wasn't built for us. And that grace has more to do with spaciousness in our life, about making room for ourselves and others to exist as we are without constant pressure to perform or conform to others' expectations.

• Speaker #1

  Have you found, as we were just talking about community a moment ago, that you've had to get others within your communities to... shift on their definitions of these words or just sort of accept your definitions whether they embrace them or not or not what how does and how do you get support from people if they don't embrace it

• Speaker #0

  Um, I think it's, I mean, sometimes it's both, right? Like, I think I sometimes see people saying, well, that's nice for you, but we're going to keep defining it, but we're also going to make room for you to have a different definition. Sometimes that's what's happening, right? That like, she's kind of a free spirit and we're going to let her do her own thing, but we're going to be over here and still like, we're on a fast track to the C-suite, even if Sunita is doing it a different way. Like I totally experienced that. But sometimes it's like saying, hey, what if we just do it a different way together? You know, what if we, instead of saying, I have to be the person that rolls into our homeschool community with a packet about my child and saying, when he's having a hard time, this is what we need to do. I get with our community leadership and say, what if we just did this for every kid? What if at the start of the year? every parent had to fill out a little piece of paper that says, hey, this is who my kid is. This is what they like. This is what they dislike. When they're feeling shy, this is what they might do. This is what they like. This is, you know, when they're having a hard time, this is what it might look like. Here are some sensory needs they have. Here are their allergies. Here are some things you might need to know about them. And every kid has one now. Whether or not they have a clinical diagnosis, Whether or not they are... And it just sits with the person that leads their class. It's not something every parent can see, but the director and the parent that is responsible for them for a couple of hours a week is aware that here are some ways you can support my child when they're really silly or they're really shy or they're really sad or they're just melting down. And what a beautiful way for us to extend grace to every kid in the room. Like, that's what I mean when I say, like, spaciousness. It's about making room for others to exist as we are. That's not, that's, like, not demanding conformity. That's saying, cool, I see you as you are, and I love you. And in the context of my faith experience, it's saying, I believe that, like, you are beautiful as you are. You belong here as you are. And I'm not asking you to change anything about you. I see that you're having a hard day. your mom crushed it and gave me this piece of paper that says when you're having a hard day you might meow like a cat so i know that if you're meowing on this tuesday morning i'm just gonna let you and i'm not gonna tell you to sit down and stop meowing i'm just gonna go noted and i'm gonna move on and how beautiful and it doesn't matter whether or not you're autistic i just know that that's what the meowing means

• Speaker #1

  I mean, that's the whole idea of neurodiversity as a concept, right? It is like everybody's different and like there are a range of differences. And some people, the differences align enough for us to say, oh, this person is autistic. But even people who are not clinically diagnosable, we still have these variations. And yeah, to embrace that. So each kid gets to show up as themselves is a beautiful thing. What could be more beautiful than supporting a kid showing up as themselves? So, no, I love that. And, you know, I will say I've seen this kind of thing in public schools and younger grades, right? Until the kid can more, you know, actually articulate their own needs sort of common. But it does sort of seem to get sort of phased out. Even just a handout that sort of, you know, my child is great at this. My child has a hard time with this. My child loves this. and it's To get to know them a little bit, but also to read between the lines some. But they take it even further.

• Speaker #0

  But we're doing this with teenagers, right? Like the youngest kids in our community are, my younger one is three. And we have teenagers too, right? So everybody does it. And I love that when I suggested we do this, it was not shut down, but that we discussed it. And now even actually the parents who are like. we call them tutors in our community, but, like, the parent who leads the kids in the class every week, they fill one, they have, like, a tutor version, too, and so they fill one out, and it's actually really helpful for us as parents, because, like, at the end of the year, if we want to buy them, like, a gift, or, like, a Christmas present, or something, like, we have those, too, so, like, they don't have a, like, if I'm feeling sad, do this, but it's, like, all about, like, Miss Sunita, and it'll have like their favorite color and their favorite snacks and they're like you know things about them so and they also upload but those to like our common thing so we can just go look and like see what they like so at the end of the year like i know i can buy like a gift card to the olive garden and some chocolate for my instructor for my kids and Like we've actually found a way to accommodate everyone. So now we've also dropped the mental load on some of the parents at the end of the semester.

• Speaker #1

  Yep. No, I love it. I love it. Yeah. That's the, I think those kinds of things. Um, I've seen teachers cause I've seen some public schools where you get these kinds of things, get to know your teacher, but it's really short cutting. So that like, I know what to give my kids teacher, uh, kind of thing. Right. But I've seen teachers like, hasn't the right much stuff on there. Cause like, I don't want to ask for things. Like, no. You are making everyone's life so much easier. Yeah. Write something on there. But also, man, one of my kids.

• Speaker #0

  Please tell me you're gluten-free so that I don't buy you a gift card to a pasta restaurant. Like, you know.

• Speaker #1

  One of my kids' teachers last year stood out to me. The teacher had written, was a big fan of the Red Hot Chili Peppers, which sort of surprised me based on this guy's kind of young. But it meant that, you know, when I wanted to buy a personalized gift, like I knew something. personal about the person and could buy you know you know some coasters with the logo on there that kind of thing like um yeah because they gave the information and that really stood i wasn't just like here's my favorite you know just this or that like it got real personal and that made such a big difference and i so yeah i could go out and not i love stuff like that but i want to keep going sanita uh because i want to get a little more i think towards a passion of yours maybe uh It's about writing and storytelling. Uh, and you, as far as I can tell, you do this in, in multiple forums. Uh, but what role has writing and storytelling, whether it's poetry, blogging, advocacy, whatever may be, what role has all this played in helping you process and share your own experiences?

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. Um, writing has, has always been kind of a, a lifeline, kind of a way I've, I've made sense of the world. Um, since I was a little kid, I. I'm also kind of an external processor. So like I like to talk and process things out loud. And I think writing is just another way to do that. So it helps me name a thing I might not have the right words to say out loud or even sometimes the courage to say a thing out loud. And storytelling has also been kind of a bridge for that. So when I write about our family's experiences or the way that I grew up, I've often had people reach out and say, you know, I thought it was just us. And that like, hey, meet me too, is so powerful. It turns isolation into connection. And I think that's really where advocacy begins, right? It's not with data or programs, but it's with lived stories that connect the data and makes meaning out of it. It reminds us that we're not alone. It reminds us that there's a way forward.

• Speaker #1

  I love that. It really is touching to have somebody reach out and say, hey, I heard you share something from your life and that meant something to me. And I've had that through this podcast a little bit and in different settings. And it's, I don't know if people who don't take any sort of public platform, I don't know if people recognize how meaningful that may be. Because it's so easy in today's world to have a voice to go out into the void somewhere. but to have it land a feedback loop um is there a particular form of writing that you find uh or storytelling that does resonate the most with people whether it's or certain platforms yeah

• Speaker #0

  um i mean i've done a lot of like personal essays over the last year and a half um and especially when i'm sharing about sort of my experience as a mom, especially as a neurodivergent mom, that's when I hear the most from people. I think other moms who are just kind of in the weeds, especially in church, I think. I think there's a lot of pressure. I think we glorify this experience of the caregiver in church, especially the super mom. who can kind of do it all, who's juggling a lot of things, who has infinite capacity because it's like this sacred calling. And when you're neurodivergent, these things that are just maybe like you need some support with executive function and you're told you're lazy or you're forgetful or it's not that hard for someone else who externally presents like you. but internally is not having the same challenges and is not having the same lived experience. And when your struggles are invisible, it's really hard to ask for help. And there's a lot of shame associated with it, which I don't think is how it's supposed to be. And so when I'm just being like, yeah, this was hard. I just couldn't get it together. We drove all the way to church and we got there and my kid didn't have shoes. So we just turned around and we hit a Dunkin' Donuts and we just went home and watched church online. Like someone's like, yes, that is so relatable, you know, because it gives you permission to be human. And I think I think we just need more of that. I think we need permission to be human.

• Speaker #1

  yes i love that yeah permission to be human uh is a yeah very real thing normally right now i would say hey where do you want to go back to reflect a little bit deeper uh we went a little bit deeper i think already on the one that we sort of chatted about in advance probably would go deeper but is there anything that from all we've touched on that you want to circle back to talk a little bit more about share more about putting that on you what do you want to do

• Speaker #0

  I mean, we could talk about any of these. I feel like you and I could just sit here and chit chat about any of this. I think, I don't know, for anyone who's listening, I think, I mean, the thing that's been sitting with me and a theme that's just coming up in my life a lot is that thing I just said that, like, I think we all could right now just use permission to be human, right?

• Speaker #1

  What are some things that you're doing in your own life, if you don't mind me prying, in order to give yourself more permission to be human?

• Speaker #0

  I think I'm asking for help more than I ever have. Without going into a ton of personal detail, this is a pretty challenging season in my life. And I hate asking for help. Like, viscerally, just is hard. and so I like to be the person who helps more than I like asking for help and also you know I've there's some life changes and I've had some health issues and and so I've just had to reach out and cast like a net to the people who love me and and say like I could really use some support and people have shown up in profoundly beautiful ways Um, and so knowing that it is extremely human to ask for help and also that there will come a season where I am able to be generous with my capacity again, and then I will, I will be so helpful. I will be the most helpful, right? Like when the time comes again, I will be able to give back in the ways that I can, um, with my time and my affection. hopefully financially and like all these you know um and so being able to lean on on people and reminding myself like that is that is human too like reciprocity is human that is what community is um and being so grateful that like that is part of that spaciousness too that like we see each other in our humanity and we love each other in the capacity that we have and um And so I think creating room for that.

• Speaker #1

  I appreciate sharing that. That's a really beautiful thing. I feel like I should, it's only fair that I turn around and share. I have to ask you such like a sort of intense question. And even though I don't normally like to share unless I'm like planning it out, but here I am. And I think two areas for me, it's sort of a 1A, 1B. And it is permission to make mistakes without just beating myself up about it. And then it is permission to not beat myself up when I'm not productive all the time. Because I feel such an internal drive to be productive all the time. And I'll be honest, on the day that we're recording this, I had time that I wanted to get more done. And I just didn't really get much done. for a like a good little stretch there um and i'm okay with it and i assume you know what i must be like what i needed i must my brain just must have needed a little bit of a break to veg out and okay and that is for people who know me that is that's a tough thing for me to say at all much less mean it um but that's human i think sometimes we yeah we can't always just be productive we can't

• Speaker #0

  be perfect and it's okay so that's what i'm working on yeah it's you know it's like what we're talking about like redefining Achievement, redefining success. I think so much of my life, so much of my journey as a parent has been reimagining what those words mean. You know, I thought as I approached 40, I would be on this track towards like the C-suite. I thought I would be, you know, having this corporate marketing career. I would be. Definitely not talking to you from my bedroom, you know, after I had gone to our homeschool group this morning. Definitely thought I wouldn't be driving a minivan, right? But so much of this journey has just been about unlearning narrow definitions and I think embracing a more expansive vision for everything. for my life. I never thought that would be kind of the invitation that Neurodivergence offered, that it challenged me to redefine what really matters, that once we identified it in my kids and then me, that flourishing can really look different, that it can take different shapes, that there's not a narrow view. of what success and flourishing and thriving can have.

• Speaker #1

  I want to wrap there. I love that. Uh, that I, I hope that everybody listening will reflect over that. Uh, I hope that everybody listening will, will think about how do you define success for yourself? Um, what does it mean for you to flourish? Cause I, if I look back, eight years ago, 10 years ago, something like that. Um, yeah, I was on a corporate route, um, fast track to one point in time and I pivoted hard and I don't miss it at all. Um, I love the work that I'm doing now. I love the space that I'm in and I love the opportunities that I get as well. So I, yeah, it's, it is not the way I would have measured success or what I would have said. I will be successful if it didn't look like this. I promise you. Uh, it definitely would have been me being a CEO years ago was my track to success. And I've, I don't care. I'm far from that and I'm good. I'm happy. Uh, so I hope everybody listening will also do that, have the same reflection and see your successes. Um, so Sunita, thank you so much for joining me though. Um, for people who've listened to you, cause you've got some great stuff out there. How can they find you? How can they learn more from you?

• Speaker #0

  Um, yeah, I'm most. active on Instagram at Sunita Tice. I post workshops that I offer on my website, sunitatice.com. I post infrequently on Substack as well, also sunitatice.substack.com. So if people want to connect, those are the places that's where I'll be.

• Speaker #1

  Awesome. Thank you. Check the show notes. All of those things are linked. Absolutely. Make sure that people can find you, Sunita. And so again, just thank you so much for being here and joining me in this conversation. today.

• Speaker #0

  Thanks so much, Sam. It was great to hang out with you.

• Speaker #1

  And again, everybody, thank you for listening to Nerd Average Spot. I'm Sam Marion. If this episode resonated for you, please share with somebody else who you think would benefit. Otherwise, check in again in two weeks. Thank you so much.