- Speaker #0
But that vulnerability really is a connection point. As humans, we want to see that in other humans.
- Speaker #1
Welcome to Neurodivergent Spot, the podcast where we put a spotlight on behind-the-scenes elements of the neurodiversity world. The guests bring their own experience, insight, expertise, and passion. I ask them four questions, and they will have 60 seconds to answer. After they answer all the questions... The guest will choose which question to return to for further conversation. I'm your host, Sam Marion. My pronouns are he, him, and I'm a multiply neurodivergent therapist, speaker, and creator. My work focuses on all things neurodiversity, but with particular interest in autism, ADHD, learning differences, and learning disabilities. Today's guest is Dr. Taylor Day. also known as Dr. Tay. Dr. Tay, please introduce yourself to the listeners.
- Speaker #0
Well, thank you for having me. I am Dr. Tay. I'm a child psychologist, and I specialize in providing neurodiversity-affirming care for autistic children and their families, and have been in the field for over a decade, but also grew up with a younger autistic brother. So autism has been in my world since I was 12 years old, and I just... I saw, you know, ultimately him going through everything, getting supports, what my family went through and knew that I wanted to be able to support families in not only a similar way, but a better way.
- Speaker #1
Quick disclaimer, information shared on this podcast should not be taken as therapy, healthcare or legal advice. I appreciate you being here with us and I've connected and followed your work and the idea of a whole family approach. It makes a lot of sense to me. If you're ready, we're going to dive into the four questions. I'll ask you each one. Once I finish asking the question, the timer will start. You'll have 60 seconds to answer. At the end of that, we will go back. You decide which one you want to return to for a little bit more conversation.
- Speaker #0
Sounds good. We're going to work on being concise today because that is not my specialty, but we're going to do it.
- Speaker #1
You know that's not mine either, which is a whole challenge for me creating a podcast that's based off of being concise, but we'll do our best here. Here we go. Question number one. You are a licensed psychologist specializing in neuroaffirming care for autistic children and their families, including very early diagnosis and early intervention. What does that mean?
- Speaker #0
Yeah, so the thing is, I really believe in practicing from this lens of seeing an individual as a human first versus their diagnosis and really focusing on how do we understand kids and families. understand the child's neurotype in order to best understand their strengths and their support needs. And then with those support needs, how do we really focus strategies that we're doing in terms of therapy on quality of life and helping them to be able to self-advocate, to feel empowered, to be autonomous. And that really becomes the focus. And the sooner that we can do this, the more effective we're going to be at helping them. to build this skill set in order to really be able to benefit their life long-term.
- Speaker #1
So it's really about supporting the parents as they support their entire family.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, largely. But I do really believe in a parent coaching model as a whole because parents are the experts of their kids. They're the ones that are seeing their kids day in, day out. So then when they feel empowered to know how to support their kids as a whole, that's where we're going to see more of the ripple effect.
- Speaker #1
Totally agree. All right. Question number two, as a practicing clinician, social media content creator, podcaster, and leader in your field, how do you balance the historical gold standard of evidence-based practice with the recent advocacy for lived experience informed practice?
- Speaker #0
Oh, goodness. This is a hard one and something that as a clinician and, you know, a content creator and being out there publicly, I'm constantly balancing. The way that I was trained in my PhD program was very strongly on evidence-based practices, whereas the research, you know, how do we go to these things that we know work? And I think one of the things is that I see in this field is there really can be this overlap where we're using some of these evidence-based practices to inform our decision, but using a different lens that are more these neurodiversity affirming approaches and really empowering and informing ourselves on what autistic. adults are saying we can learn so much, but I do think that there is this middle ground and this is where clinical opinion comes into play and, you know, having that ultimate perspective of being able to. kind of work within between both.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. That's a tightrope we walk, isn't it?
- Speaker #0
It is. And no one really defines this is what I find. And so that makes it tricky. So it's just a constant check-in with myself.
- Speaker #1
That makes a lot of sense. And that's, I think why it's so important for us to stay in contact with other clinicians and talk through things. I know you and I've definitely consulted at times. Yeah,
- Speaker #0
absolutely.
- Speaker #1
All right. Next question. In the time I've known you. which is about a year and a half. I've seen you embrace change in your life and I've heard you discuss past life changes as well. I'm thinking about career pivots, business growth and evolution, even where you live. What have you found to be most important to allow yourself to make these changes?
- Speaker #0
Yeah, I mean, I think it's been doing a lot of the inner work. You know, I think we talk about the benefits of therapy, but even as a therapist and psychologist, having my own therapist to be able to be a mirror and a reflection back, we can't often see kind of where our weak points are or where we have room for growth. And so working with someone to help you do that. And I think one of the things for me is like really understanding like how much, you know, my history has shaped some of my decision-making. historically. And so it's been letting go of perfectionism. It's been letting go of having to always have the answer, always be the helper, tune into what my needs are and live authentically of like, who do I really want to be? And how do I show up as that person now?
- Speaker #1
Living authentically can be so powerful and so incredibly difficult.
- Speaker #0
For sure. It takes a lot of vulnerability. And for so long, vulnerability was really hard for me because I was so used to being the helper and having all the answers and realizing that being vulnerable, you know, led to being authentic, but that vulnerability really is a connection point. As humans, we want to see that in other humans.
- Speaker #1
Yes. We definitely want to see that others. I agree. Final question. What advice would you give to others who are trying to make changes or find new growth, either personally or professionally?
- Speaker #0
Yeah, I think the thing that comes to mind the most is letting go of your ego. And I think it's even recognizing that you have an ego. We all have egos to some degree. And I think, you know, being trained as a clinician that was very evidence-based practice, what does the research say? I was in academia for many years, like that was my tried and true. And I had some resistance to... switching to neurodiversity affirming practices. And that was my ego, right? Because by admitting that I needed to do things different, it meant that I was maybe doing things incorrectly in the past and our ego protects us. And so I think recognizing and honoring that it's trying to protect us, but it also stops us from growing, you know, both professionally and personally, I think is a really important part. And so naming it, honoring it and saying, Hey, can you, can you take us? a step to the side, I think has been so critically important for moving forward.
- Speaker #1
Thank you. The ego piece is tough sometimes setting ourselves aside.
- Speaker #0
Yeah.
- Speaker #1
So I appreciate you talking about vulnerability and some of your answers there.
- Speaker #0
Thanks. It's been a practice.
- Speaker #1
It has to be practiced, right? It's the only way we can do it. So this is the point when you choose one of those four questions and I can ask it again if you need me to. But for us to return back to, let's dive a little bit deeper.
- Speaker #0
I think the one I really like and itching to talk more about is this intersection of evidence-based practice and neurodiversity affirming approaches because it's messy. And I think so many clinicians struggle with this. And I think, you know, for parents or educators, whoever is listening to this to understand all the nuance in it.
- Speaker #1
What are other ways that you find help you to walk that? balance to explore, to learn what is lived experience or just sort of all those different elements and angles. How are you doing that?
- Speaker #0
Yeah. I mean, I think I'm doing intentionally a lot of consumption on social media to hear what autistic individuals are saying, trying to make connections too with autistic individuals that are deeper beyond like what the posts are saying, I think can be really helpful. I have a lot of conversations and DMs with people kind of going back and forth. And And, you know, hearing their perspective. And I think one of the things is that is important is each. We have the collective we often talk about with autistic adults and what they share, but that's not always representative of everything. And so I think still recognizing you have to meet the person in front of you where they're at and what they need. And I think some of what I've had to challenge too is letting go of this black and white thinking that I often think we see on social media of like, oh, well, those evidence-based practices, those are no-go. Like- exposure for anxiety, for example, right? No, no, no. Like we can't do that. And it's like realizing that there is this middle ground that there are ways actually, I believe as a clinician to do exposure in a really affirming, supportive, therapeutic way that includes like really making sure when I'm working with kids that they have the buy-in, that they're driving it, that they understand the why behind it, like having this informed consent model. And I think recognizing the nuance because a child can be motivated to want to do these exposures. So they feel less anxious. They feel less distressed. And I think, yeah, it's just, it's not a one is right. One is wrong.
- Speaker #1
I got to say that the exposure one, I think is an interesting example. I come originally from the trauma therapy world where I would say absolutely not, but I'm thinking about re-exposing somebody to a traumatic experience. And like, of course not, but How many things in everybody's daily life, as we get exposed to something, do we find ourselves a little bit less anxious?
- Speaker #0
Oh, totally. When we can predict it and we feel like we have a sense of control, that usually decreases our anxiety. And I think a perfect example of this, I have a kid on my caseload right now who historically has not been able to access school. School has been very hard for him. It has been traumatic. And the family switched schools and he wants to go to school. but he's so anxious about going to school and what's going to happen. And so it's working with this family to figure out, okay, what is this hierarchy? He is motivated. He wants to be there. His fear is getting in the way of going to this fun, safe place, right? This is a different school. And so it's like, we are step-wising the time that he's at school. We're also, as an example, thinking about where mom is located. Mom is sitting in the school parking lot right now. We're not trying to fade mom, you know, and say like, oh, well, you should be here. And I think that's the hard thing. And often why we view exposure as traumatic, so to speak, and not affirming is because it's adult led. We're saying this is the hierarchy. What I'm saying here is we can make it child led and collaborative and cooperative. And I think that makes all the difference in the world. And so this kid is saying, I'm staying for 35 minutes today, you know. might wake up the next morning and being like, I'm not ready. Well, we're honoring that. And we know that over time he'll get there.
- Speaker #1
No, it makes total sense. I'll say balancing the evidence-based practice with the lived experience as somebody with experience as neurodivergent, as autistic, ADHD. I find it sort of challenging in that make sure that I separate my personal lived experience from being like the main narrative as I'm working with people. And I think the social media example is great because- I've also connected with a lot of different folks whose experiences are different, and that helps add value. I think there are some things that, yes, I find myself identifying quite a bit with a young person in my office or I'm working with parents. And I don't know, it's an interesting world to try to balance in an affirming way of truly affirming that evidence-based stuff is real and there's value and lived experiences are real and there's value.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. Again, I think it's this nuance. It's really muddy. I think few people are defining this. And I think that's what makes it tricky. But I think having conversations like this are really, really important in order to keep progressing the field. I think I've talked to you about this. Like you and I, it's funny because we live on social media in this bubble of neurodiversity affirming accounts, but we're on the forefront of like really doing this and bringing this into our clinical practice. There's so many clinicians that are not, but I wonder in a decade from now, like, you know, what are we going to look at, look like, what's the field going to look like? And that's really exciting, but there's also some uncertainty. And I think this uncertainty can actually stop clinicians from learning and shifting because there's so many unknowns. But the thing, my guiding principle always is how, like, who is the human in front of me? How can we honor the fact that this? Autistic child is a human with thoughts, with opinions, with rights, with needs, all of that. And if I can keep that at the center of my practice, I think. That will always be the guiding light. That doesn't mean I'll be candid. That also doesn't mean I might not sometimes like recommend something and then like look back later and be like, oh, why did I recommend that? You know, as I learn more, but I think that's some of it too, is there is this, this element of uncertainty, but when we can see the human first, when we can keep it, you know, individual led, like the client is leading it and you're getting their buy-in in the conversation. I think that's what's hard with exposure historically. on evidence-based practices is we are, we're, we're hierarchying it based on adults, but we're deciding as the clinician and adult of like, you know, we use subjective distress ratings, but we're also saying like, oh, do they look less anxious? Let's push them. Right. And so I think exposure tends to have a slower pace and that's the difference of being child-led versus adult-led.
- Speaker #1
Yes. Child-led, the slower pace. varying these things, who we're listening to, make sure we give everybody a voice as a human. I think those are all powerful things for the sake of brevity, which this is a topic I think you and I could talk on for hours. But as we wrap up here, Dr. Tay, can you point the listeners, if they want to hear more about you, learn more from you, where can they find you?
- Speaker #0
Yeah. I mean, in terms of social media, I'd say the platform I hang out the most on is Instagram. So it's the period, D-R period, Tay. I also have a podcast called It. evolve with Dr. Tay. Sam was on a while ago. And additionally, my website is drtaylorday.com. So dr and then taylorday.com.
- Speaker #1
Thank you so much, Taylor, Dr. Tay. Thank you for being here with us today.
- Speaker #0
Thanks so much for having me.
- Speaker #1
Thanks for listening to Nerd Divergent Spot. I'm Sam Marion. If you enjoyed this episode, I hope you'll subscribe and share it around. And remember, if you're looking for a speaker or trainer, reach out to see how we can work together. You can find me on Instagram at NeuroDivergentSpot. And from there, you can find all my other places online.
