- Speaker #0
So in my work, I always ask, who is being left out here and what can we do about it?
- Speaker #1
Welcome to Nerdivergent Spot, the podcast where we put a spotlight on behind-the-scenes elements of the nerdiversity world. The guests bring their own experience, insight, expertise, and passion. I ask them four questions and they will have 60 seconds to answer. After they answer all the questions, the guests... We'll choose which question to return to for further conversation. I'm your host, Sam Marion. My pronouns are he, him, and I'm a multiply neurodivergent therapist, speaker, and creator. My work focuses on all things neurodiversity, but with particular interest in autism, ADHD, learning differences, and learning disabilities. Today's guest is Charlie Ocean. Charlie, please introduce yourself to the listeners.
- Speaker #0
Sure thing. I'm Charlie Ocean. I've got a master's in social work. My pronouns are they, them. And I'm an ADHD and autistic speaker, trainer, and consultant whose work focuses on LGBTQ plus allyship and inclusive workplace practices.
- Speaker #1
Quick disclaimer, information shared on this podcast should not be taken as therapy, healthcare, or legal advice. Thank you, Charlie. I am just super excited to have you. Today, I think that you bring so much value to the world in your work.
- Speaker #0
Thank you. Yeah. And thank you for the invitation. I'm excited to be here and curious to see how this goes.
- Speaker #1
So we're going to dive in. Four questions. You'll have 60 seconds to answer each question. As soon as I finish reading the question, I will start the timer. Here we go. Question number one. Can you give us a brief history of your journey to identifying as neurodivergent?
- Speaker #0
My neurodivergent journey doesn't start with TikTok. And I feel like this is becoming... an answer. I hear more and more these days. But that is where my world really imploded. And after laughing at ADHD videos for way too long, I realized, oh, wait, this is me. This is why I'm laughing. And then it led me down a path of self-discovery, diving into what I now know as Audie HD. From there, I went into almost like a life review, revisiting old memories. noticing signs, even looking at my family and, you know, wagging a finger at them. And I'll talk more about that later. But TikTok was the catalyst. And ADHD was an easy thing to embrace. But being autistic took more time because I knew ableism would add another layer to challenges that I'm already facing.
- Speaker #1
Thank you. I'll just add in. For me, I had a diagnosis of ADHD first by like 15. plus years. However, I accepted my autism diagnosis prior to accepting the ADHD. So I'm a little bit reverse from your story there. All right. Next question. You have a background in social work, tech, and LGBTQ plus community organizing. As you look back, how has your neurodivergence influenced that path?
- Speaker #0
My neurodivergence, especially my ADHD, well... I say that, but also my autism. It shows up in all of my backgrounds. I've made sense of having those experiences be part of my life. It has also made me much more mindful of inclusivity, especially in spaces that claim to be more progressive, but might overlook things like accessibility needs. So in my work, I always ask, who is being left out here and what can we do about it? And whether it's tech, social work, or the community organizing that you were talking about, I really try to advocate not just for LGBTQ plus folks, but also neurodivergent folks too, especially since we know there's such an overlap there. So being both forces me to think more holistically about inclusion, which has always been a thread of my, I don't know, belief system in doing this work. Probably because my autism has my social justice on steroids.
- Speaker #1
What a social worky question. Just to look and say, who's being left out here? I love it.
- Speaker #0
Thanks. Glad to see that I'm meeting the needs and requirement of that work.
- Speaker #1
I mean, it's just sort of core to what we do and who we are, right? All right, let's keep going. Question number three. What has your experience been as a neurodivergent person in different professional settings?
- Speaker #0
It has been fucking rough at times. I've found myself in awkward or even confrontational situations, especially when people didn't understand, and I didn't either, how I understand how I process information and sort of how I operate and why. So once... A VP was super frustrated with me. And I could tell it was coming from a place of, why isn't Charlie getting this? They're smart. They're capable. You know, they do really challenging things all the time. So why aren't they getting this thing? It's so simple. And it was really less about intelligence and more about how I work differently and not being able to articulate that. So often there has been different situations. that have made me to feel less than or like I'm not enough simply because of approaching things from a different angle and not having the language until more recently to explain how I work and why I need what I need.
- Speaker #1
Gosh, having that language is such a life-changing experience for so many people. All right, question number four. How is it different being a neurodivergent freelancer as opposed to being a neurodivergent employee?
- Speaker #0
As a freelancer? I don't run into the same roadblocks I do as in more like nine to five salaried jobs. There's no red tape. There's no need to convince anyone that I need to lie down for a bit or step away to take care of myself and how long that's going to be. I can just do it. I've been pretty open to even introducing myself as multiply neurodivergent, which I stole from you. So going back to the conversation of language and that being important. So thank you for that, Sam. But people, including my clients, have been really receptive. I think the biggest challenge for me as a freelancer is just staying organized and finding strategies that work for me. So, for example, co-working and body doubling have been absolute magic. But finding other neurodivergent and especially neuroqueer people in those spaces has been a huge help, too.
- Speaker #1
I'm just thinking about how important it is to find those little tricks. to be successful. I use a lot of visual cues, visual reminders. And I don't think that I felt the freedom to do that as much when I was an employee versus now that I work alone, that I feel so much more okay about that.
- Speaker #0
Absolutely. Yeah. And people can like pick apart your systems and be like, why are you doing that or something? But it also feels important to expand on neuroqueer just because I know that may be a term that's newer to folks.
- Speaker #1
Please do.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. So there's different definitions that float around there because everyone has their own meaning of what it, well, their own definition of what it means to them. However, for me, it means that there's this intersection and I talked about it before without saying neuroqueer, but there's this intersection of my neurodivergence and my queerness that's really important to me. And I find that it's better language to articulate who I am in a nutshell as much as possible. And it also helps me to find other folks at that same intersection so that I can be in an environment where I can be the most me possible, whatever that looks like.
- Speaker #1
I think it's a powerful word as I hear people describe using it for themselves and identifying as such. So I really appreciate you taking a minute and explaining that, defining that, but also giving your own experience.
- Speaker #0
Absolutely. It's always interesting to hear people's definitions. how they come to them.
- Speaker #1
You know, I look a lot and I think a lot about intersectionality and I think to find language or to have language to describe a certain intersection just seems to really add some empowerment and strength around it as well as more opportunities to identify with others at a certain intersection.
- Speaker #0
Thank you.
- Speaker #1
At this point, let's go back. Which question of the four that I asked? Would you like to return to for a little bit more conversation?
- Speaker #0
Let's go back to question one.
- Speaker #1
All right. Question number one was, can you give us a brief history of your journey to identifying as neurodivergent? Where do you want to go with that now, Charlie?
- Speaker #0
I had mentioned about TikTok and how my journey doesn't start there with my neurodivergence, but rather that's when my world imploded in a really unique way. If I go back to second grade. That's the earliest memory I have of my neurodivergence because in second grade, our class, we decided to have a garden that we're all going to take care of together on the school grounds. And the first step of that was pulling the weeds. And because this was the 90s, the teacher got a disposable camera and was documenting. the whole process, I guess, so that we could have proof that like we did this thing and help us, I guess, to tell the story later. I don't even remember what we're going to be planting, but what All I do remember is that when we were finished pulling the weeds and after some time, I don't know how long she waited to develop the photos. When she got them and was going through them in front of the class, she was wanting to hand everyone at least one photo of themselves pulling the weeds. And I just remember because I was wearing a neon pink shirt that day. I was just like this pink shirted blur in the background throughout all the photos. And she just got so pissed. She got so pissed and made me feel like shit in front of the whole class because she was just so frustrated with me that I was in all the photos. And that is, I don't know, I guess there's this implication that without her saying it, I think what she was also saying was that I was basically ruining all these photos too by being in all of them. And so she just sort of scolded me in front of the whole class. And... Yeah, it just really made me feel like shit because she was like, you're supposed to like stay in one spot and only pull the weeds there. And it's like, first off, you didn't give me those instructions. You said to pull the weeds, right? Like, that's all you said. You didn't say we need to sit down in one spot and pull them there. And so if I'm pulling weeds, it doesn't matter if I'm pulling them from here, there or everywhere. And then start sounding like a Dr. Seuss book or something. But like, I was still doing what she had asked. if you wanted me to do a certain way, you need to like clarify that. And why she waited to scold me in front of the whole class like that. I don't know. She could have like easily pulled me aside that day and been like, Hey, Charlie, you know, actually, can you do it this way? I probably would have asked why. And then we probably would have had a different fight. And there'd be a different story I'd be telling. But all the same, I just, I feel like, you know, when I was talking about that VP and the interaction we had together, I just, I feel like that's... That's the constant situation. It's like I'm back to pulling the weeds again and being scolded for how I do it. It just feels like that's the same conversation I have over and over again with people that like I'm reporting to, for example. So I guess maybe hearing some advice is if you find like a system that works for you, I just encourage you to embrace it and be different because that was like... a big mistake on that teacher's part of scolding me in that way. She definitely shouldn't have done it. There was nothing wrong with the way I was doing things. I was still pulling the weeds. It'd be a different story if I wasn't like doing the task at hand or something. So I would encourage folks to do what you need to do in order to get things done. And also don't be afraid to advocate for yourself because otherwise you're just going to continue to be in an environment that just isn't good for you and then leads to like being bitter and resentful or then you're having to hide things that you need to do. And I also would urge folks listening who aren't neurodivergent to give grace and trust, just extend that grace and trust to, you know, especially if you're supervising someone or it's an issue that comes up in HR or something, you know, when there's an open floor plan. And someone needs noise canceling headphones in order to get their work done. That shouldn't be seen as being antisocial or whatever, because they're also expected to get certain tasks and responsibilities done. So I don't know why Phil moved to share that, but I guess I just wanted to say that and extend that for folks like teachers and professors as well. If folks need to work a certain way, because that's just their process. And if they're asking why, it doesn't mean they're challenging you. It just means that sometimes we hit these roadblocks where we need the why to make sure that we're also doing something as efficiently as possible and that we're more bought into the outcome.
- Speaker #1
You know, Charlie, I sat here listening and two things came up for me. First was the professional side of me that was just thinking about. how common it is that I encourage families if they're working with their child's school on accommodations to have clarity of instructions as part of that, where a child can ask questions until they understand what to do. And I realized that for me is a common one because I'm somebody who needs clear instructions. When you reference back to the VP, I found myself suddenly sitting with a former boss who was questioning me and sort of fussing at me about things that I was not doing that I had never been told that I needed to do. And it turns out there were multiple things in that role that I never was told to do or how to do it. I was just supposed to know. And I had not really thought about it. from that perspective until you referenced the VP. So I really appreciate you kind of sharing both the childhood side, because this is what we think most often, right, is children's experiences in classes and schools, but then the side of adults, how often adults struggle with this without the language for it, without even the personal insight yet. I didn't have the same insight at the time that I was working in that job to advocate for myself. I didn't have it. And so I do hope that the people listening to this can hear that and maybe if they connect with that childhood story whether it's their own childhood or they're watching their own child that they may reflect into their own experiences as well that may be an area of growth or reflection because that could be really powerful so thank you for being so vulnerable yeah
- Speaker #0
thank you for that it's i think a common thread in the work i do especially the community organizing or advocating i just don't want people to go through the same stuff i went through like let me be the person to have gone through this thing which obviously won't be just me, of course, but then let's not keep doing that. And not also put people in a place where they feel like they have to disclose anything. It's like, this is just how my brain works. So when I went round and around with that VP trying to get clarification and she kept refusing to give it to me, both of us were then just getting flustered because it's like, well, no, see, now you're going to set me up for failure again because... You thought we've been having this like little chat about something that you haven't been appreciating in a way I've been showing up. But I need clarification to know how to avoid that in the future. And if you won't give it to me, then I don't know what we're doing here. We're just going to keep going around and around. Both of us are going to just keep getting more and more flustered.
- Speaker #1
That feeling of being set up for failure because you're not being told what to do and how to do it is such a terrible feeling. So thank you for being so vulnerable with this. Charlie, I could go on and on about some of these topics. It's really powerful. But before we go, will you tell the listeners, how can they find you? Where should they track you down?
- Speaker #0
The best place to find me is my website, highcharlieocean.com. And that's H-I as in hi, hello, hey. So highcharlieocean.com.
- Speaker #1
Thank you so much, Charlie, for being here. Thank you so much for sharing with us. And for all the listeners, thank you all for being here with us as well. Thanks for listening to NeuroDivergent Spot. I'm Sam Marion. If you enjoyed this episode, I hope you'll subscribe and share it around. And remember, if you're looking for a speaker or trainer, reach out to see how we can work together. You can find me on Instagram at NeuroDivergent Spot. And from there, you can find all my other places online.
