Transcription

• Speaker #0

  All right. Welcome, everybody, to another Deep Dive. Today, we're going to be going through some really fascinating material from the Geneva Chancellery.

• Speaker #1

  Ooh, exciting.

• Speaker #0

  It is exciting. So we've got, you know, official records from back in the day. This is kind of their, you know, trying to figure out how to organize everything. Right.

• Speaker #1

  All their important documents and things like that.

• Speaker #0

  Exactly. Like all the important stuff that a city needs to run. So, you know, think property titles, legal rights, you know, all the official kind of records of what's going on.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  But it sounds like they weren't exactly, you know, masters of organization at the very beginning.

• Speaker #1

  Well, you know, to be fair, how many of us really are?

• Speaker #0

  That is true. That is true.

• Speaker #1

  But, you know, especially for a city that's going through such a huge transformation, right? It's not just the Reformation religiously, but that's impacting everything. Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  Socially, politically.

• Speaker #1

  Everything's changing. And in the middle of all that, you've got to be like, oh, wait, we need to keep track of all this stuff. Right. This is important.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. We can't just like shove it in a drawer somewhere.

• Speaker #1

  Exactly. And speaking of shoving things in a drawer.

• Speaker #0

  Oh, is that a hint?

• Speaker #1

  Maybe. Maybe.

• Speaker #0

  Tell me more.

• Speaker #1

  Well, what's fascinating is, like you said, they weren't exactly experts in organization right off the bat. And, you know, some of these documents, they were just chucked into this basement room. Oh, no. I kid you not. They called it the grot, right? The cave, basically. Can you picture it?

• Speaker #0

  Oh, that's that does not bode well.

• Speaker #1

  Dusty, damp, probably some cobwebs. Who knows what else?

• Speaker #0

  Who knows what's down there?

• Speaker #1

  Exactly. And these are like crucial legal documents, records, all just kind of piled in there.

• Speaker #0

  So that's where we're starting.

• Speaker #1

  That's our starting point.

• Speaker #0

  From the grot to, well, something better, hopefully.

• Speaker #1

  To a system, hopefully. Something that resembles a system.

• Speaker #0

  So in this deep dive, that's what we're looking at, right? Absolutely. How did they go from this chaos, this grot situation, to something more organized?

• Speaker #1

  Exactly. What were the big decisions? Who were the people pushing for it?

• Speaker #0

  Who are the heroes of archival organization in early Geneva?

• Speaker #1

  Right. The unsung heroes, perhaps, because it's not glamorous work, but it's so important.

• Speaker #0

  So important.

• Speaker #1

  And, you know, when you think about it, it really shows that even something as basic as record keeping. Yeah. Has a history. It evolves. It's a process. Right. It didn't just appear fully formed.

• Speaker #0

  No. And driven by these, you know.

• Speaker #1

  Real practical needs.

• Speaker #0

  Like real problems they were having.

• Speaker #1

  Exactly.

• Speaker #0

  So let's get into it. All right,

• Speaker #1

  let's dive in. First off,

• Speaker #0

  let's talk about something super fundamental. Language. Okay. Back in December 1537, this guy Claude Bernard, along with a commissioner named Cusini, they posed a question. Hmm. Should these official books be in Latin, which was, you know. Traditional, yeah. Traditional language of officialdom. Or should they be in French way? Which was basically early French.

• Speaker #1

  Right. The vernacular, the language people actually spoke.

• Speaker #0

  Exactly. And their initial decision may be a bit surprising considering, you know, the whole Reformation thing. It was stick with Latin. Let's stick with what we know.

• Speaker #1

  So even though, you know, the Reformation was all about making religious texts accessible to the people in their own language. Yeah. When it came to official documents, there was still that pull towards the established language of scholarship and authority.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, it makes sense. Like, you know, you're in the middle of all this change. Yeah. You want some things to stay the same.

• Speaker #1

  Right, some continuity.

• Speaker #0

  But that wasn't the end of the story, was it?

• Speaker #1

  It wasn't, no. Things started to shift.

• Speaker #0

  Because just a little over a year later, February, March 1539, we see a change, at least with the notaries.

• Speaker #1

  Oh, interesting.

• Speaker #0

  And it's a very direct ruling. They said, Arresté que tous les notaires et insulastaires de messieurs esclifs, tous actes... Wow.

• Speaker #1

  Okay. Straight to the point.

• Speaker #0

  Basically all notaries under the authority of the Lords of Geneva. Right. I got to write everything in French. Got it.

• Speaker #1

  No more Latin.

• Speaker #0

  No more Latin for you.

• Speaker #1

  So it sounds like they realized that, you know, for these legal and commercial transactions to actually work, people need to understand them.

• Speaker #0

  Right. Exactly.

• Speaker #1

  It's all about accessibility and transparency.

• Speaker #0

  And it wasn't just a suggestion.

• Speaker #1

  I don't know. They meant business.

• Speaker #0

  They had this notary from Pygmy, Paul Belli. Okay. And they said. Okay, you can practice, but everything's got to be in French.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  And you got to submit your protocols, which are basically his registers.

• Speaker #1

  Right, his official record.

• Speaker #0

  Every three months.

• Speaker #1

  Wow, regular check-ins.

• Speaker #0

  Regular check-ins. And if he doesn't, he incurs the, quote, indignation of the lords. Ooh,

• Speaker #1

  that's serious. Don't want that.

• Speaker #0

  Don't mess with the lords of Geneva.

• Speaker #1

  Sounds like a good rule of thumb.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. And this kind of lines up with what was happening elsewhere in Europe too, right?

• Speaker #1

  It does, actually. Around the same time, in 1539, King Francois I of France, he issued the Ordinance of Villers-Couture, which famously made French the official language for all legal proceedings in France.

• Speaker #0

  So Geneva is a little bit ahead of the curve here.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, a little bit. But it shows this broader trend of making official language, you know, the language of the people. Right. It's a big deal.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, it's a big deal. So we've got the language thing starting to get sorted out. But now we've got all these documents. What do we do with them?

• Speaker #1

  Where do they go?

• Speaker #0

  Where do they go? And obviously security is a big concern. Of course.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  So by January 1538, they're starting to get really worried. about protecting what they call droids droids okay what are those exactly these are like all the uh all the records of rights titles you know all those important uh crucial papers yeah crucial papers and they decide okay we're gonna put them in the crocdies the crocdies which are vaults okay makes sense waltz for important thing yeah they're down in the basement of the town hall all right nice and secure but it gets even more interesting so okay i am intrigued they come up with this four key system four keys Wow. Yeah. So two keys are held by the syndics who are like the the main magistrates of Geneva. OK. And then two keys are held by elected individuals.

• Speaker #1

  Interesting. So no one person can just waltz in there.

• Speaker #0

  No. You got to have a team, a team. You got to work together.

• Speaker #1

  So it's not just about physical security. Right. It's about checks and balances. Yeah, absolutely. It's about making sure no one has too much power.

• Speaker #0

  Like a very early version of like distributed authority or something like that.

• Speaker #1

  Right. Exactly. And. Honestly, that's a principle that's still relevant today.

• Speaker #0

  It is, yeah.

• Speaker #1

  Especially with information security and all that.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, so they're kind of ahead of their time in a way.

• Speaker #1

  A little bit, yeah. Forward thinking.

• Speaker #0

  So who are these elected individuals?

• Speaker #1

  Well, the names we have are Estienne Chappell-Rouge and Mikael Sept. Right. And to make sure everything was above board, they also mandated that each vault had to have a logbook.

• Speaker #0

  Oh,

• Speaker #1

  every time a document was removed, you had to write it down.

• Speaker #0

  Oh, so like an early chain of custody.

• Speaker #1

  Exactly. You know who took it out, when all the details.

• Speaker #0

  Very thorough.

• Speaker #1

  They were serious about protecting these documents.

• Speaker #0

  And then there were the council registers,

• Speaker #1

  right? The minutes of the council meetings.

• Speaker #0

  Super important.

• Speaker #1

  Oh, absolutely. The record of their decisions, their discussions.

• Speaker #0

  And those were even more restricted. Oh,

• Speaker #1

  really?

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. Initially, you couldn't even look at them.

• Speaker #1

  Wow.

• Speaker #0

  Like unless, unless the. Signory, which is basically the governing council, decided they wanted a history of the city written.

• Speaker #1

  So only for official history purposes.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. And even then, the historians could only look at one register at a time. Wow.

• Speaker #1

  One at a time.

• Speaker #0

  Under supervision, probably.

• Speaker #1

  I wouldn't be surprised.

• Speaker #0

  You know, white gloves, the whole thing.

• Speaker #1

  Handling them with care.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. And we even know the names of some of these early historians, right?

• Speaker #1

  We do. Francois Bonavart. Okay. He was the former prior of Saint-Victor. And then later, Anton Froment, who was actually married to Marie Dantier, the theologian.

• Speaker #0

  Oh,

• Speaker #1

  wow. So quite a lineage there.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, so you can just imagine them pouring over these registers.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, shaping the historical narrative of Geneva.

• Speaker #0

  Pretty cool.

• Speaker #1

  It is pretty cool.

• Speaker #0

  But there was still a problem, wasn't there?

• Speaker #1

  There was. As secure as those vaults were, the Karad itself was still a mess.

• Speaker #0

  Right. It's still the Grok.

• Speaker #1

  The documents were just all jumbled up in there.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, all... piled together.

• Speaker #1

  Our source even says entreposer pelmel, which basically means all mixed up haphazardly.

• Speaker #0

  Not helpful.

• Speaker #1

  Not helpful at all. Every time they needed a specific document, it was like a treasure hunt.

• Speaker #0

  Oh, I can imagine.

• Speaker #1

  They had to move everything around just to make sure they had the right one.

• Speaker #0

  Not efficient.

• Speaker #1

  Definitely not efficient. And that's really what pushed them towards a more organized system. The grot was just too chaotic.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. So they needed a solution.

• Speaker #1

  They needed a solution.

• Speaker #0

  And that solution was.

• Speaker #1

  Well, it started with recognizing that they needed a dedicated person for this.

• Speaker #0

  Like a professional organizer.

• Speaker #1

  Exactly. Someone who could bring order to the chaos.

• Speaker #0

  That's how the archivist was born, right?

• Speaker #1

  In a way, yes. It was a direct response to this practical problem.

• Speaker #0

  They were like, okay, we need someone who's good at this.

• Speaker #1

  Right. Someone who can make sense of all these documents.

• Speaker #0

  And it wasn't just about the general city rights either.

• Speaker #1

  No, there were other records that needed special attention. Like? Like the criminal proceedings. Oh. Those were considered very sensitive. Yeah,

• Speaker #0

  I can imagine.

• Speaker #1

  So by 1543, they decided, OK, these are going in a separate vault.

• Speaker #0

  Oh, wow.

• Speaker #1

  A seven key vault, in fact.

• Speaker #0

  Seven keys.

• Speaker #1

  Seven keys. So even more people involved. Wow. The syndics, the treasurer, the controller, Milano, and the secretary all had keys.

• Speaker #0

  So lots of oversight.

• Speaker #1

  Lots of oversight. And it shows just how seriously they took these criminal records.

• Speaker #0

  Right. Because those could have huge consequences.

• Speaker #1

  Absolutely. They wanted to make sure everything was handled properly.

• Speaker #0

  With all the proper procedures.

• Speaker #1

  Exactly. No room for error.

• Speaker #0

  So. By the 1540s, it seems like things are starting to get more organized.

• Speaker #1

  Definitely. They're realizing that they need more formal structures for managing all these documents.

• Speaker #0

  So what happened next? Well,

• Speaker #1

  in 1542, we see the first mention of a secretary.

• Speaker #0

  What's that?

• Speaker #1

  It's basically a registry, a central place to keep all the city's papers.

• Speaker #0

  Oh, okay, like a central hub?

• Speaker #1

  Exactly. And they even considered using the Saleneuve.

• Speaker #0

  The new hall.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, the new hall. as a possible location.

• Speaker #0

  Makes sense. Like, let's have a dedicated spot for all this stuff.

• Speaker #1

  Right. No more grot.

• Speaker #0

  So much better than the grot.

• Speaker #1

  And it shows they're starting to think about the benefits of centralization.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. Having everything in one place.

• Speaker #1

  Makes it easier to manage, to find what you need.

• Speaker #0

  Makes sense. And the notaries were also being kept on their toes, right?

• Speaker #1

  Oh, absolutely. They didn't get off easy.

• Speaker #0

  Because from 1543 onwards, there were all these ordinances. requiring them to submit inventories of all the instruments they had received.

• Speaker #1

  Okay, so like a list of all the documents they had dealt with?

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, every three months.

• Speaker #1

  Still those regular check-ins.

• Speaker #0

  Regular check-ins. And this was specifically to help the city retrieve any records that belonged to them.

• Speaker #1

  Right, so they could keep track of their own documents, even if they were stored with the notaries.

• Speaker #0

  Clever. So everyone's got to be organized now.

• Speaker #1

  Everyone. It was becoming a citywide effort.

• Speaker #0

  And even the Chamber of Accounts started having problems.

• Speaker #1

  Oh no, not the Chamber of Accounts.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. By 1544, they're complaining about the confusions.

• Speaker #1

  Confusions?

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, because all their financial records were mixed up with other documents.

• Speaker #1

  Oh, so it's not just the grot anymore. The problem is spreading.

• Speaker #0

  Right. And their solution was to separate these different types of records.

• Speaker #1

  Okay.

• Speaker #0

  And to have dedicated personnel for the Chamber of Accounts and for the Chancellery.

• Speaker #1

  Makes sense. You need people with specific expertise.

• Speaker #0

  Right, because financial records are different from...

• Speaker #1

  From legal documents, from property titles.

• Speaker #0

  Exactly. So it's getting more special.

• Speaker #1

  More specialized, more professional.

• Speaker #0

  And then from 1545 to 1547, it's like a whirlwind of activity.

• Speaker #1

  Okay. What happened?

• Speaker #0

  So many appointments, committees, all focused on getting those droids organized.

• Speaker #1

  So those Crucian City documents.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. We've got syndics, Louis Bernard. Okay. Secretary McGuinn. All sorts of people in the vault.

• Speaker #1

  It's busy time.

• Speaker #0

  And they even considered using the vault under the iron storage.

• Speaker #1

  Interesting choice.

• Speaker #0

  You know, like they're really trying to find the right place.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, they're getting creative.

• Speaker #0

  For all this stuff. And all this leads to a really big moment, right?

• Speaker #1

  Right, I'm ready for it.

• Speaker #0

  In July and September of 1547, they decide, we need a general.

• Speaker #1

  A general? What does that mean?

• Speaker #0

  Like an overseer, specifically for organizing all those droids.

• Speaker #1

  Ah, okay. So like a chief organizer.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, and the perfect candidate.

• Speaker #1

  Who was it?

• Speaker #0

  Claude Roset.

• Speaker #1

  Claude Roset. I like the sound of this guy.

• Speaker #0

  Right. He's like the proto-archivist. Yeah,

• Speaker #1

  the pioneer.

• Speaker #0

  The pioneer of archival science in Geneva.

• Speaker #1

  That's a good title.

• Speaker #0

  So it's like, this is a big deal, right? It's huge. They're finally saying, look, this record-keeping stuff, this is a real job.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, it needs a dedicated professional.

• Speaker #0

  But Roset, he wasn't so sure at first.

• Speaker #1

  Oh, why not?

• Speaker #0

  Well, he had his own stuff going on. And he's like, look. This is a lot of work. Yeah. I'm going to need some help. I'm going to need a servant.

• Speaker #1

  Makes sense. You can't organize a whole city's archives by yourself.

• Speaker #0

  And he needs to be paid properly.

• Speaker #1

  Of course. Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  So September 1547, they try a different approach. Okay. They decide, okay, the council secretary is going to live in the city's house. Okay. And we're going to hire a servant specifically to help organize the droids.

• Speaker #1

  So more of a team effort.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. And make those inventories.

• Speaker #1

  Okay. So it's becoming more formalized.

• Speaker #0

  Right. More structured.

• Speaker #1

  Less ad hoc.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, exactly. And it's not just the city records anymore either, right?

• Speaker #1

  Oh, right. What else was going on?

• Speaker #0

  They were also working on organizing the church records.

• Speaker #1

  The church records.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, the Drozdes Iglesias.

• Speaker #1

  Interesting. So they're recognizing that this is important for both secular and religious institutions?

• Speaker #0

  Absolutely. And it started back in 1546.

• Speaker #1

  Okay.

• Speaker #0

  So even before they decided on Rozet for the city records.

• Speaker #1

  So parallel efforts.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. And they were also using signed receipts for any... borrowed instruments.

• Speaker #1

  Smart. Keep track of everything.

• Speaker #0

  So accountability is a big theme here.

• Speaker #1

  Definitely. They're realizing that these documents are valuable. Yeah. And they need to be treated with care.

• Speaker #0

  And then finally we get to the formal appointment.

• Speaker #1

  The moment we've all been waiting for.

• Speaker #0

  Drum roll please.

• Speaker #1

  Drum roll sound.

• Speaker #0

  Claude Roset and Francois Begon.

• Speaker #1

  Okay. Tell me everything.

• Speaker #0

  So 1548, Roset officially becomes the general for organizing city rights. He got the job. He got the job. And they even negotiated his salary.

• Speaker #1

  Oh, interesting.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, they settled on 350 florins per year.

• Speaker #1

  Not bad.

• Speaker #0

  Plus payment for attending council meetings.

• Speaker #1

  Nice little perk.

• Speaker #0

  So they're really taking this seriously.

• Speaker #1

  They're investing in him.

• Speaker #0

  Right, they're investing in good record keeping.

• Speaker #1

  Smart move.

• Speaker #0

  But then, late... 1549, Rosette's like, my initial term's up. I'm not doing this for free. Fair enough. He wants a salary.

• Speaker #1

  Rightfully so.

• Speaker #0

  So they come up with a new plan.

• Speaker #1

  Okay, what's that?

• Speaker #0

  Two secretaries. Two? Two. Claude Roset. Okay. And Francois Buchan.

• Speaker #1

  All right, so they brought in some reinforcements.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, they're sharing the responsibilities.

• Speaker #1

  Makes sense. It's a big job.

• Speaker #0

  And they're both getting 100 florins per year. Okay. But there's a catch. A catch. One of them has to live in the city's house.

• Speaker #1

  Ah, so they're always on call.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, and no books or documents can be taken out.

• Speaker #1

  Okay, so they're really clamping down on security.

• Speaker #0

  Absolutely. Everything stays on the premises.

• Speaker #1

  Smart. Keeps everything safe and organized.

• Speaker #0

  And the Council of 200 officially approves this in February 1550.

• Speaker #1

  It's official.

• Speaker #0

  It's official. We have secretaries.

• Speaker #1

  Geneva has secretaries.

• Speaker #0

  But then, early 1550, Rozek comes back.

• Speaker #1

  Oh, what does he want now?

• Speaker #0

  He needs more space. More space. He's like, look, I can't do my job properly. Yeah. We need more room to organize all these droids.

• Speaker #1

  The archives are growing. They're growing.

• Speaker #0

  So they clear out some rooms in the Chamber of Accounts. Okay. And they start looking for a more permanent, bigger space.

• Speaker #1

  So it's a work in progress.

• Speaker #0

  It's a work in progress. It never really ends, does it?

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. No, it doesn't. But that's kind of the beauty of it, right? Yeah. That it's constantly adapting, improving.

• Speaker #0

  So we started with the grot.

• Speaker #1

  The chaotic grot.

• Speaker #0

  And we've ended up with, well...

• Speaker #1

  With a system.

• Speaker #0

  A system. Secretaries, dedicated spaces, language guidelines.

• Speaker #1

  It's a huge transformation.

• Speaker #0

  It is. And it all happened in what, like 15 years? Yeah.

• Speaker #1

  Very impressive.

• Speaker #0

  It really makes you think about the importance of these, you know, seemingly boring administrative decisions.

• Speaker #1

  Right. Like who cares about record keeping?

• Speaker #0

  But they have such a big impact.

• Speaker #1

  They really do. I mean, think about it. Those early decisions about language, security, organization. Yeah. They shaped how Geneva was governed, how its history was recorded. Right. We're still feeling the effects of those decisions today.

• Speaker #0

  That's amazing. It's like the butterfly effect of bureaucracy.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, exactly. You know, one little decision about where to store a document can have ripple effects for centuries.

• Speaker #0

  That's wild. So what do you think? What's the big takeaway for our listeners here?

• Speaker #1

  I think it's that even the most basic functions of government have a history. They evolve. They're shaped by practical challenges. And sometimes it's the unsung heroes like Claude Roset who make all the difference.

• Speaker #0

  The archivists of the world.

• Speaker #1

  Right. They're the ones who bring order to the chaos.

• Speaker #0

  And without them, well, we wouldn't have this deep dive, would we?

• Speaker #1

  We wouldn't have much of anything, honestly. History would be a lot harder to study.

• Speaker #0

  That's for sure. So to all the archivists out there,

• Speaker #1

  thank you. Thank you for your service.

• Speaker #0

  You are the unsung heroes. Absolutely. And to our listeners. Yeah. Think about those early decisions, you know, how they shaped things.

• Speaker #1

  Seemingly small things that can have a big impact.

• Speaker #0

  And maybe, just maybe. Yeah. Take a moment to appreciate your local archivist.

• Speaker #1

  Definitely. Go visit your archives.

• Speaker #0

  They're full of fascinating stories.

• Speaker #1

  Absolutely. And who knows, maybe you'll discover the next Claude Roussey.

• Speaker #0

  That's it for this Deep Dive.

• Speaker #1

  Until next time.

• Speaker #0

  See ya.