Meat, Power, and Politics: Geneva’s Butcher Games (1536-1550) | Really Calvin, is this an ideal life? A historical podcast.

Description

Welcome to Really Calvin, is this an ideal life? A historical podcast. In today's episode, 'Meat, Power, and Rebellion: Geneva's Butchers vs. Authority (1536-1550),' we dive into the simmering tensions of Reformation-era Geneva. Picture this: a city caught between Calvin's strict moral order and a defiant butchers' guild determined to carve out their own rules. From price disputes to tax rebellions and even fights over prime real estate for their shops, the butchers weren’t afraid to challenge the city’s rulers. Add in some drama with roast houses and a few creative punishments, and you’ve got a recipe for a meaty historical showdown. Let’s explore how this battle over beef shaped Geneva’s political landscape.

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This historical popularization podcast is developed as part of the interdisciplinary project entitled "A semantic and multilingual online edition of the Registers of the Council of Geneva / 1545-1550" (RCnum) and developed by the University of Geneva (UNIGE), as part of funding from the Swiss National Scientific Research Fund (SNSF). For more information: https://www.unige.ch/registresconseilge/en.

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Transcription

Speaker #0
All right, so you're back with us for another deep dive. And today we're going somewhere really interesting. We're going to 16th century Geneva.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
And we're going to be using the Regisseur du Conseil, which is like their council minutes, basically.
Speaker #1
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker #0
And we're going to be looking at something kind of surprising. I think something that I hadn't really thought much about before, but really, really fascinating once you kind of get into the details. And that is butchers. and butcheries.
Speaker #1
That's right. We're diving into this section called Viande et Boucherie, Ecourcheries, Rotisseries, Triperies, which kind of covers the whole gamut of meat in 16th century Geneva. But we're going to focus squarely on the butchers. And what's really amazing is when you look at these records, the most abundant animal-related mentions are all about food. Yeah. Meat in particular. Yeah,
Speaker #0
that's right. I mean, when you think about it, it's like, well, yeah, of course. But it's just sort of funny to think about, like, that's what they decided to record. record. It's like the most important thing that they're dealing with animals for is like eating them pretty much.
Speaker #1
Absolutely. And it's not even a given, right? Like even the people who are compiling these registers are debating amongst themselves, like, is this too mundane? Should we even be writing this down for posterity or should we stick to the big issues of religion and finance and these kinds of things? And thankfully for us, they did include these more everyday elements. And so we have this incredible window into the daily lives of people.
Speaker #0
Yeah. And I love that the mundane stuff is really where it's at, I think. So let's talk about, you know, the actual butchery, the butchering. Yeah. You know, it's not like you could just set up shop anywhere in town. Yeah. There was a lot of regulation around this, wasn't there?
Speaker #1
Yeah, there's all kinds of regulations. Like prices are set by the authorities. Yeah. They have a tax, a gabelle, they call it, which is levied on every animal that's slaughtered. Okay. So it's a way for them to get revenue, obviously, and they even regulate the rent. for the butcher stalls themselves. Oh, wow. So they control the price of the meat. They control where the meat can be sold. Right. And they even control kind of how much the butchers are making by setting the rent for the stalls.
Speaker #0
So it sounds like they were really trying to control the meat supply, which makes sense. It's such an important commodity. Yeah. Were there any issues that they were trying to target with all this regulation or things that were coming up over and over again?
Speaker #1
Yeah. So unfair competition was a big concern, which isn't surprising when you've got you know, lots of different people trying to make a living. They regulated where the animals could be slaughtered. They generally had to be slaughtered either within the butcher's premises or at designated accourciaries, which were basically slaughterhouses outside of the city walls, probably for reasons of sanitation.
Speaker #0
Okay.
Speaker #1
And then there's this interesting little tidbit. Four times a year, butchers were entitled to a gratuity of tongues.
Speaker #0
Free tongues.
Speaker #1
Free tongues. four times a year.
Speaker #0
Wow. I like that perk.
Speaker #1
Right. It makes you wonder about like what was the relative value of different parts of the animal and how are those kind of distributed among the population?
Speaker #0
So interesting. So it sounds like the butchers, you know, weren't just passive in this process of all this regulation. They actually had their own organization.
Speaker #1
Yeah. They had the Corporation de Boucher, which was a guild. basically, and it had a lot of influence.
Speaker #0
That sounds like they did.
Speaker #1
Yeah, they would challenge decisions that were made by the Council of 200, especially around pricing. Like when the council would set prices that the butchers didn't think were fair, they would say, no, we're not going to sell at this price.
Speaker #0
Wow, so they could really push back against the authorities.
Speaker #1
They could.
Speaker #0
That's amazing.
Speaker #1
Yeah, and there's a really great example. In 1540, the Grand Council actually decreed that any butcher who refused to swear a prescribed oath but kept selling meat would be punished.
Speaker #0
So they were really trying to clamp down.
Speaker #1
Yeah, they were trying to get control over these butchers.
Speaker #0
Okay, so how did all this back and forth, this tension affect the average Genevan? What did they have to pay for their meat?
Speaker #1
Well, the records actually give us prices for beef and mutton over several decades. Oh, wow. From 1513 to 1549. And you can really see the market responding to different factors. Sometimes prices go up, sometimes they go down. And the authorities are trying to control that volatility with these regulations. Yeah. Now, one interesting thing is that butchers were only allowed to sell by weight. They couldn't sell by the piece, which makes sense when you think about it from a taxation and control perspective. They want to be able to track exactly how much meat is being sold and they want to make sure that everyone's being taxed fairly. And later on in the records, actually, it says explicitly that selling by the piece is prohibited.
Speaker #0
That's so interesting. OK, so let's talk about this chair-a-mody tear, which is the meat lease. What was that all about?
Speaker #1
Yeah, so the cherry modiatera is basically the city leasing out the right to sell meat. And collect the taxes within a certain area.
Speaker #0
So they're selling the right to sell meat.
Speaker #1
Exactly. And individuals would bid on this, right? Okay. And we know, for example, that a guy named Claude Bernard held this lease in 1536. And actually, in the same year, he complains he can't pay the full amount because of the wars that are going on that are affecting the availability of meat.
Speaker #0
So even back then, even essential goods like meat were subject to these big geopolitical forces. Yeah,
Speaker #1
absolutely.
Speaker #0
Really interesting. Yeah. And this kind of ties into the meat tax that we talked about earlier, which also changed during this period.
Speaker #1
Yeah, that's right. It went from being a percentage, a sue per florin of the meat's value to a per animal tax. Oh, interesting. And this happened in 1536 at the request of the butchers.
Speaker #0
So the butchers themselves wanted this change.
Speaker #1
They did. Okay. And we know that in April 1536, they set the initial rates for the different animals. The Boeufs-Massel, which is a male bovine. Okay. The Vosch, the cow. Okay. Mouton, which is mutton veau, which is veal, and pork, which is pork. Okay. And interestingly, these rates weren't set in stone immediately. There were adjustments within days. By April 12th, they had settled on final rates for beef cow, pork, mutton, ewe, and veal. And amazingly, those rates stayed pretty consistent over the following decades.
Speaker #0
So they found a system that worked.
Speaker #1
Yeah. It seems so.
Speaker #0
Amazing. Yeah. So were there taxes on other types of meat besides just, you know, the standard beef and pork and all that?
Speaker #1
Yes. Bovine tongues were taxed separately. And this actually led to a conflict in 1525 between Genevan butchers and the Duke of Savoy over who had the right to collect this tax. Wow. And there were also taxes on what they call secondary meats and fat meats like beef, which was taxed at a higher rate. Interesting. And actually there's a decree from 1521 that gives us a much broader picture of. the kinds of meat that people were eating beyond beef, cow, mutton, sheep, pork, and veal. They also had poultry and game.
Speaker #0
Oh, so they were eating a pretty diverse diet, at least some people were.
Speaker #1
It seems so.
Speaker #0
Interesting. Yeah. So let's talk about where you could actually find these butcheries in Geneva. Where were they located? Well,
Speaker #1
in 1535, there were three confirmed butcheries. There was one at Langemont, one at Ponterone, and one at Place des Gifes, which was also called Juverie or Grand Mezel. Near the Saint-Germain church.
Speaker #0
Just three for the whole city. Yeah,
Speaker #1
that's all we have records of.
Speaker #0
Wow, so those must have been pretty important places.
Speaker #1
They must have been. Yeah. And the location of the main butchery, the Grand Boucherie, was actually a bit of a controversy.
Speaker #0
Oh, really?
Speaker #1
Yeah. In April 1536, the Grand Council decided to move it near the Maison de la Ville. Okay. Because they said the Place de l'Echevereur was an unfavorable location.
Speaker #0
You can just imagine the conversations about where the main butcher shop should be.
Speaker #1
Right. Like, where is the best place for everyone to access this important service? Yeah. And interestingly enough, within a year, there were discussions about moving it back. Oh, wow. To the original location. So it seems like the butchers had their own preferences and they weren't afraid to voice them.
Speaker #0
Yeah, they weren't going to just take this lying down.
Speaker #1
Exactly.
Speaker #0
And another interesting point is that Saint-Gervais, despite having a large population, didn't have a butchery at all. Right, right. And apparently that was for political reasons. They didn't trust the largely foreign inhabitants of Saint-Gervais.
Speaker #1
Wow. So even something as basic as a butcher shop was tied up in politics.
Speaker #0
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker #1
So we talked about taxes, we talked about leases, but what about rent? I mean, rent must have been a big expense for these butchers.
Speaker #0
It was. And there's a really interesting example from mid-April 1536, where the Longemal butchers actually requested a rent reduction. Okay. They said they weren't selling as much meat because a lot of the Catholics had left Geneva and the suburbs had been destroyed.
Speaker #1
So they were feeling the economic effects of these broader changes. Yeah. Interesting. And what did the authorities do?
Speaker #0
They agreed to reduce the rent. They did? Yeah, at least for the 12 premier's banches, which are like the prime stalls. Okay. But in contrast, the butchers in Vanduvers were paying a much higher rent.
Speaker #1
Oh, wow. So there were definitely discrepancies depending on your location. Yeah. And were there any times when butchers just couldn't pay their rent at all? There are instances of that as well in the records where butchers are struggling to make ends meet.
Speaker #0
Yeah, it sounds like a tough business.
Speaker #1
It was.
Speaker #0
So it sounds like a lot of regulations, a lot of challenges for the butchers. Yeah. What about the consumers? Were there any measures in place to protect them?
Speaker #1
Yeah, so they had officials whose job it was to oversee the butchers and make sure they were charging fair prices. Okay. And in 1537, there was actually a proposal to put scales in the grand boucherie so they could weigh the meat in front of the customer.
Speaker #0
So the customer knew they were getting what they paid for.
Speaker #1
Exactly. It's a very early form of consumer protection.
Speaker #0
That's really interesting.
Speaker #1
Yeah. And it wasn't just about the prices. The butchers also got in trouble for trying to avoid paying their tithes on oats.
Speaker #0
So they were really trying to make sure these butchers were following all the rules.
Speaker #1
Yeah. They were trying to keep them honest.
Speaker #0
And one other thing I thought was interesting is this idea of liberty. for the butchers, which sounds good on the surface, but it actually came with a bit of a catch.
Speaker #1
Yeah. So liberty meant that the butchers could set their own prices. OK. But it also meant that they lost their exclusive right to sell meat.
Speaker #0
Oh, so now they had competition.
Speaker #1
Exactly. Foreigners were allowed to come in and sell meat at the same price.
Speaker #0
So they had to choose between freedom and a monopoly. Yeah,
Speaker #1
exactly.
Speaker #0
That's fascinating.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
So we've talked about taxes and leases and rent and all that. But there was also this other thing. The offense debouché, which means the butcher's offenses lease. What was that all about?
Speaker #1
Yeah. So this was basically the city leasing out the right to collect fines from butchers who broke the rules. Okay. And a guy named Louis Rommel was one of the early holders of this lease. Oh, wow. And we know that in 1542 and 1543, they were paying a certain amount for this right to collect these fines.
Speaker #0
And what kinds of things were the butchers getting fined for?
Speaker #1
Well, they could get fined for selling above the set price. Oh. And the buyers could also get fined for paying more than the set price.
Speaker #0
Oh, wow. So they went both ways.
Speaker #1
Yeah, they were really trying to control the market. And they kept emphasizing that meat should be sold au balance at the scales.
Speaker #0
So everything had to be weighed and measured.
Speaker #1
Yeah. Transparency was key.
Speaker #0
So with all these rules, all this oversight, there must have been some resistance from the butchers, right?
Speaker #1
Absolutely. Absolutely. Resistance was a... constant problem.
Speaker #0
In what ways?
Speaker #1
Well sometimes they would just refuse to slaughter or sell meat at the fixed prices. Really? Yeah and in July 1544 the seigneury actually had to order the public criers to announce the regulations and enforce them against the butchers.
Speaker #0
They were really trying to crack down.
Speaker #1
They were and there's even a pretty big scandal in April 1548.
Speaker #0
Oh what happened?
Speaker #1
Well, the butchers colluded. They actually signed a contract to avoid buying livestock from Bernie's subjects.
Speaker #0
Wow. So they were trying to control the supply?
Speaker #1
Yeah, it was like a cartel.
Speaker #0
And what happened?
Speaker #1
Well, the authorities found out they arrested some of the butchers and they annulled the contract.
Speaker #0
So they weren't messing around? Nope. Okay, so last question. Was there any kind of quality control for the meat?
Speaker #1
Yeah. Believe it or not, there was. In October 1540, they actually decided to appoint two people in each butchery. whose job it was to inspect the meat and make sure it was good quality.
Speaker #0
Wow. So they had like meat inspectors.
Speaker #1
Exactly.
Speaker #0
That's amazing. It sounds like they were really trying to protect the consumers.
Speaker #1
Yeah, they were.
Speaker #0
Wow. This has been so fascinating. I never would have thought that there would be so much to say about butchers in 16th century Geneva.
Speaker #1
It's really amazing the level of detail that's in these records.
Speaker #0
It really gives you a sense of what daily life was like back then. Yeah. All the challenge, all the regulations. Yeah.
Speaker #1
And how important something as simple as meat was to the functioning of society.
Speaker #0
Exactly. So it makes you think, doesn't it? Like how do those challenges compare to the challenges we face today with our food system?
Speaker #1
Yeah. Like what's changed and what's stayed the same?
Speaker #0
Yeah. Like are we still dealing with some of the same fundamental issues just in a different form?
Speaker #1
Exactly. And it really highlights how important it is to understand the history of our food systems.
Speaker #0
Absolutely. Because. Those historical forces are still shaping our lives today.
Speaker #1
Yeah, so we encourage you to go and do some research. Look into the history of your own local food systems and see what you can find.
Speaker #0
Yeah, you might be surprised by what you discover.
Speaker #1
You might be.
Speaker #0
All right, thanks for joining us for this deep dive.
Speaker #1
Thanks for having me.
Speaker #0
We'll see you next time.

About Really Calvin, is this an ideal life? A historical podcast.

Step into the cobblestone streets of 16th-century Geneva, where faith, politics, and daily life collide in the shadow of John Calvin's influential reforms. This podcast that we could have called "Echoes of Reformation: Calvin's Geneva Unveiled" peels back the layers of history to reveal a city in transformation, bringing you face-to-face with the characters, controversies, and cultural shifts that defined an era.

Join historian Dr. Christophe Chazalon as he unearths hidden gems from the "Registers of the Council of Geneva," breathing life into forgotten stories and challenging long-held assumptions. From heated theological debates to the whispers of everyday citizens, each episode offers a vivid, immersive journey into the heart of the Reformation.

Discover:

- The human side of John Calvin beyond the pulpit

- Power struggles and political intrigue in the Genevan council chambers

- How ordinary people navigated the tumultuous waters of religious change

- Surprising facts that rewrite our understanding of this pivotal period

Whether you're a history buff, a theology enthusiast, or simply curious about the forces that shaped our modern world, "Echoes of Reformation" delivers a fresh, engaging look at a city and a movement that changed the course of history. Subscribe now and let the echoes of the past resonate in your present!

We're passionate about bringing the history of Calvin's Geneva to life. Join the conversation and access exclusive documents, episode transcripts, and more on my website at https://geneva16th.org/ !

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

About Really Calvin, is this an ideal life? A historical podcast.

Discover:

- The human side of John Calvin beyond the pulpit

- Power struggles and political intrigue in the Genevan council chambers

- How ordinary people navigated the tumultuous waters of religious change

- Surprising facts that rewrite our understanding of this pivotal period

We're passionate about bringing the history of Calvin's Geneva to life. Join the conversation and access exclusive documents, episode transcripts, and more on my website at https://geneva16th.org/ !

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Description

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Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Transcription

Speaker #0
All right, so you're back with us for another deep dive. And today we're going somewhere really interesting. We're going to 16th century Geneva.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
And we're going to be using the Regisseur du Conseil, which is like their council minutes, basically.
Speaker #1
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker #0
And we're going to be looking at something kind of surprising. I think something that I hadn't really thought much about before, but really, really fascinating once you kind of get into the details. And that is butchers. and butcheries.
Speaker #1
That's right. We're diving into this section called Viande et Boucherie, Ecourcheries, Rotisseries, Triperies, which kind of covers the whole gamut of meat in 16th century Geneva. But we're going to focus squarely on the butchers. And what's really amazing is when you look at these records, the most abundant animal-related mentions are all about food. Yeah. Meat in particular. Yeah,
Speaker #0
that's right. I mean, when you think about it, it's like, well, yeah, of course. But it's just sort of funny to think about, like, that's what they decided to record. record. It's like the most important thing that they're dealing with animals for is like eating them pretty much.
Speaker #1
Absolutely. And it's not even a given, right? Like even the people who are compiling these registers are debating amongst themselves, like, is this too mundane? Should we even be writing this down for posterity or should we stick to the big issues of religion and finance and these kinds of things? And thankfully for us, they did include these more everyday elements. And so we have this incredible window into the daily lives of people.
Speaker #0
Yeah. And I love that the mundane stuff is really where it's at, I think. So let's talk about, you know, the actual butchery, the butchering. Yeah. You know, it's not like you could just set up shop anywhere in town. Yeah. There was a lot of regulation around this, wasn't there?
Speaker #1
Yeah, there's all kinds of regulations. Like prices are set by the authorities. Yeah. They have a tax, a gabelle, they call it, which is levied on every animal that's slaughtered. Okay. So it's a way for them to get revenue, obviously, and they even regulate the rent. for the butcher stalls themselves. Oh, wow. So they control the price of the meat. They control where the meat can be sold. Right. And they even control kind of how much the butchers are making by setting the rent for the stalls.
Speaker #0
So it sounds like they were really trying to control the meat supply, which makes sense. It's such an important commodity. Yeah. Were there any issues that they were trying to target with all this regulation or things that were coming up over and over again?
Speaker #1
Yeah. So unfair competition was a big concern, which isn't surprising when you've got you know, lots of different people trying to make a living. They regulated where the animals could be slaughtered. They generally had to be slaughtered either within the butcher's premises or at designated accourciaries, which were basically slaughterhouses outside of the city walls, probably for reasons of sanitation.
Speaker #0
Okay.
Speaker #1
And then there's this interesting little tidbit. Four times a year, butchers were entitled to a gratuity of tongues.
Speaker #0
Free tongues.
Speaker #1
Free tongues. four times a year.
Speaker #0
Wow. I like that perk.
Speaker #1
Right. It makes you wonder about like what was the relative value of different parts of the animal and how are those kind of distributed among the population?
Speaker #0
So interesting. So it sounds like the butchers, you know, weren't just passive in this process of all this regulation. They actually had their own organization.
Speaker #1
Yeah. They had the Corporation de Boucher, which was a guild. basically, and it had a lot of influence.
Speaker #0
That sounds like they did.
Speaker #1
Yeah, they would challenge decisions that were made by the Council of 200, especially around pricing. Like when the council would set prices that the butchers didn't think were fair, they would say, no, we're not going to sell at this price.
Speaker #0
Wow, so they could really push back against the authorities.
Speaker #1
They could.
Speaker #0
That's amazing.
Speaker #1
Yeah, and there's a really great example. In 1540, the Grand Council actually decreed that any butcher who refused to swear a prescribed oath but kept selling meat would be punished.
Speaker #0
So they were really trying to clamp down.
Speaker #1
Yeah, they were trying to get control over these butchers.
Speaker #0
Okay, so how did all this back and forth, this tension affect the average Genevan? What did they have to pay for their meat?
Speaker #1
Well, the records actually give us prices for beef and mutton over several decades. Oh, wow. From 1513 to 1549. And you can really see the market responding to different factors. Sometimes prices go up, sometimes they go down. And the authorities are trying to control that volatility with these regulations. Yeah. Now, one interesting thing is that butchers were only allowed to sell by weight. They couldn't sell by the piece, which makes sense when you think about it from a taxation and control perspective. They want to be able to track exactly how much meat is being sold and they want to make sure that everyone's being taxed fairly. And later on in the records, actually, it says explicitly that selling by the piece is prohibited.
Speaker #0
That's so interesting. OK, so let's talk about this chair-a-mody tear, which is the meat lease. What was that all about?
Speaker #1
Yeah, so the cherry modiatera is basically the city leasing out the right to sell meat. And collect the taxes within a certain area.
Speaker #0
So they're selling the right to sell meat.
Speaker #1
Exactly. And individuals would bid on this, right? Okay. And we know, for example, that a guy named Claude Bernard held this lease in 1536. And actually, in the same year, he complains he can't pay the full amount because of the wars that are going on that are affecting the availability of meat.
Speaker #0
So even back then, even essential goods like meat were subject to these big geopolitical forces. Yeah,
Speaker #1
absolutely.
Speaker #0
Really interesting. Yeah. And this kind of ties into the meat tax that we talked about earlier, which also changed during this period.
Speaker #1
Yeah, that's right. It went from being a percentage, a sue per florin of the meat's value to a per animal tax. Oh, interesting. And this happened in 1536 at the request of the butchers.
Speaker #0
So the butchers themselves wanted this change.
Speaker #1
They did. Okay. And we know that in April 1536, they set the initial rates for the different animals. The Boeufs-Massel, which is a male bovine. Okay. The Vosch, the cow. Okay. Mouton, which is mutton veau, which is veal, and pork, which is pork. Okay. And interestingly, these rates weren't set in stone immediately. There were adjustments within days. By April 12th, they had settled on final rates for beef cow, pork, mutton, ewe, and veal. And amazingly, those rates stayed pretty consistent over the following decades.
Speaker #0
So they found a system that worked.
Speaker #1
Yeah. It seems so.
Speaker #0
Amazing. Yeah. So were there taxes on other types of meat besides just, you know, the standard beef and pork and all that?
Speaker #1
Yes. Bovine tongues were taxed separately. And this actually led to a conflict in 1525 between Genevan butchers and the Duke of Savoy over who had the right to collect this tax. Wow. And there were also taxes on what they call secondary meats and fat meats like beef, which was taxed at a higher rate. Interesting. And actually there's a decree from 1521 that gives us a much broader picture of. the kinds of meat that people were eating beyond beef, cow, mutton, sheep, pork, and veal. They also had poultry and game.
Speaker #0
Oh, so they were eating a pretty diverse diet, at least some people were.
Speaker #1
It seems so.
Speaker #0
Interesting. Yeah. So let's talk about where you could actually find these butcheries in Geneva. Where were they located? Well,
Speaker #1
in 1535, there were three confirmed butcheries. There was one at Langemont, one at Ponterone, and one at Place des Gifes, which was also called Juverie or Grand Mezel. Near the Saint-Germain church.
Speaker #0
Just three for the whole city. Yeah,
Speaker #1
that's all we have records of.
Speaker #0
Wow, so those must have been pretty important places.
Speaker #1
They must have been. Yeah. And the location of the main butchery, the Grand Boucherie, was actually a bit of a controversy.
Speaker #0
Oh, really?
Speaker #1
Yeah. In April 1536, the Grand Council decided to move it near the Maison de la Ville. Okay. Because they said the Place de l'Echevereur was an unfavorable location.
Speaker #0
You can just imagine the conversations about where the main butcher shop should be.
Speaker #1
Right. Like, where is the best place for everyone to access this important service? Yeah. And interestingly enough, within a year, there were discussions about moving it back. Oh, wow. To the original location. So it seems like the butchers had their own preferences and they weren't afraid to voice them.
Speaker #0
Yeah, they weren't going to just take this lying down.
Speaker #1
Exactly.
Speaker #0
And another interesting point is that Saint-Gervais, despite having a large population, didn't have a butchery at all. Right, right. And apparently that was for political reasons. They didn't trust the largely foreign inhabitants of Saint-Gervais.
Speaker #1
Wow. So even something as basic as a butcher shop was tied up in politics.
Speaker #0
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker #1
So we talked about taxes, we talked about leases, but what about rent? I mean, rent must have been a big expense for these butchers.
Speaker #0
It was. And there's a really interesting example from mid-April 1536, where the Longemal butchers actually requested a rent reduction. Okay. They said they weren't selling as much meat because a lot of the Catholics had left Geneva and the suburbs had been destroyed.
Speaker #1
So they were feeling the economic effects of these broader changes. Yeah. Interesting. And what did the authorities do?
Speaker #0
They agreed to reduce the rent. They did? Yeah, at least for the 12 premier's banches, which are like the prime stalls. Okay. But in contrast, the butchers in Vanduvers were paying a much higher rent.
Speaker #1
Oh, wow. So there were definitely discrepancies depending on your location. Yeah. And were there any times when butchers just couldn't pay their rent at all? There are instances of that as well in the records where butchers are struggling to make ends meet.
Speaker #0
Yeah, it sounds like a tough business.
Speaker #1
It was.
Speaker #0
So it sounds like a lot of regulations, a lot of challenges for the butchers. Yeah. What about the consumers? Were there any measures in place to protect them?
Speaker #1
Yeah, so they had officials whose job it was to oversee the butchers and make sure they were charging fair prices. Okay. And in 1537, there was actually a proposal to put scales in the grand boucherie so they could weigh the meat in front of the customer.
Speaker #0
So the customer knew they were getting what they paid for.
Speaker #1
Exactly. It's a very early form of consumer protection.
Speaker #0
That's really interesting.
Speaker #1
Yeah. And it wasn't just about the prices. The butchers also got in trouble for trying to avoid paying their tithes on oats.
Speaker #0
So they were really trying to make sure these butchers were following all the rules.
Speaker #1
Yeah. They were trying to keep them honest.
Speaker #0
And one other thing I thought was interesting is this idea of liberty. for the butchers, which sounds good on the surface, but it actually came with a bit of a catch.
Speaker #1
Yeah. So liberty meant that the butchers could set their own prices. OK. But it also meant that they lost their exclusive right to sell meat.
Speaker #0
Oh, so now they had competition.
Speaker #1
Exactly. Foreigners were allowed to come in and sell meat at the same price.
Speaker #0
So they had to choose between freedom and a monopoly. Yeah,
Speaker #1
exactly.
Speaker #0
That's fascinating.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
So we've talked about taxes and leases and rent and all that. But there was also this other thing. The offense debouché, which means the butcher's offenses lease. What was that all about?
Speaker #1
Yeah. So this was basically the city leasing out the right to collect fines from butchers who broke the rules. Okay. And a guy named Louis Rommel was one of the early holders of this lease. Oh, wow. And we know that in 1542 and 1543, they were paying a certain amount for this right to collect these fines.
Speaker #0
And what kinds of things were the butchers getting fined for?
Speaker #1
Well, they could get fined for selling above the set price. Oh. And the buyers could also get fined for paying more than the set price.
Speaker #0
Oh, wow. So they went both ways.
Speaker #1
Yeah, they were really trying to control the market. And they kept emphasizing that meat should be sold au balance at the scales.
Speaker #0
So everything had to be weighed and measured.
Speaker #1
Yeah. Transparency was key.
Speaker #0
So with all these rules, all this oversight, there must have been some resistance from the butchers, right?
Speaker #1
Absolutely. Absolutely. Resistance was a... constant problem.
Speaker #0
In what ways?
Speaker #1
Well sometimes they would just refuse to slaughter or sell meat at the fixed prices. Really? Yeah and in July 1544 the seigneury actually had to order the public criers to announce the regulations and enforce them against the butchers.
Speaker #0
They were really trying to crack down.
Speaker #1
They were and there's even a pretty big scandal in April 1548.
Speaker #0
Oh what happened?
Speaker #1
Well, the butchers colluded. They actually signed a contract to avoid buying livestock from Bernie's subjects.
Speaker #0
Wow. So they were trying to control the supply?
Speaker #1
Yeah, it was like a cartel.
Speaker #0
And what happened?
Speaker #1
Well, the authorities found out they arrested some of the butchers and they annulled the contract.
Speaker #0
So they weren't messing around? Nope. Okay, so last question. Was there any kind of quality control for the meat?
Speaker #1
Yeah. Believe it or not, there was. In October 1540, they actually decided to appoint two people in each butchery. whose job it was to inspect the meat and make sure it was good quality.
Speaker #0
Wow. So they had like meat inspectors.
Speaker #1
Exactly.
Speaker #0
That's amazing. It sounds like they were really trying to protect the consumers.
Speaker #1
Yeah, they were.
Speaker #0
Wow. This has been so fascinating. I never would have thought that there would be so much to say about butchers in 16th century Geneva.
Speaker #1
It's really amazing the level of detail that's in these records.
Speaker #0
It really gives you a sense of what daily life was like back then. Yeah. All the challenge, all the regulations. Yeah.
Speaker #1
And how important something as simple as meat was to the functioning of society.
Speaker #0
Exactly. So it makes you think, doesn't it? Like how do those challenges compare to the challenges we face today with our food system?
Speaker #1
Yeah. Like what's changed and what's stayed the same?
Speaker #0
Yeah. Like are we still dealing with some of the same fundamental issues just in a different form?
Speaker #1
Exactly. And it really highlights how important it is to understand the history of our food systems.
Speaker #0
Absolutely. Because. Those historical forces are still shaping our lives today.
Speaker #1
Yeah, so we encourage you to go and do some research. Look into the history of your own local food systems and see what you can find.
Speaker #0
Yeah, you might be surprised by what you discover.
Speaker #1
You might be.
Speaker #0
All right, thanks for joining us for this deep dive.
Speaker #1
Thanks for having me.
Speaker #0
We'll see you next time.

About Really Calvin, is this an ideal life? A historical podcast.

Discover:

- The human side of John Calvin beyond the pulpit

- Power struggles and political intrigue in the Genevan council chambers

- How ordinary people navigated the tumultuous waters of religious change

- Surprising facts that rewrite our understanding of this pivotal period

We're passionate about bringing the history of Calvin's Geneva to life. Join the conversation and access exclusive documents, episode transcripts, and more on my website at https://geneva16th.org/ !

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

About Really Calvin, is this an ideal life? A historical podcast.

Discover:

- The human side of John Calvin beyond the pulpit

- Power struggles and political intrigue in the Genevan council chambers

- How ordinary people navigated the tumultuous waters of religious change

- Surprising facts that rewrite our understanding of this pivotal period

We're passionate about bringing the history of Calvin's Geneva to life. Join the conversation and access exclusive documents, episode transcripts, and more on my website at https://geneva16th.org/ !

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

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Transcription

Speaker #0
All right, so you're back with us for another deep dive. And today we're going somewhere really interesting. We're going to 16th century Geneva.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
And we're going to be using the Regisseur du Conseil, which is like their council minutes, basically.
Speaker #1
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker #0
And we're going to be looking at something kind of surprising. I think something that I hadn't really thought much about before, but really, really fascinating once you kind of get into the details. And that is butchers. and butcheries.
Speaker #1
That's right. We're diving into this section called Viande et Boucherie, Ecourcheries, Rotisseries, Triperies, which kind of covers the whole gamut of meat in 16th century Geneva. But we're going to focus squarely on the butchers. And what's really amazing is when you look at these records, the most abundant animal-related mentions are all about food. Yeah. Meat in particular. Yeah,
Speaker #0
that's right. I mean, when you think about it, it's like, well, yeah, of course. But it's just sort of funny to think about, like, that's what they decided to record. record. It's like the most important thing that they're dealing with animals for is like eating them pretty much.
Speaker #1
Absolutely. And it's not even a given, right? Like even the people who are compiling these registers are debating amongst themselves, like, is this too mundane? Should we even be writing this down for posterity or should we stick to the big issues of religion and finance and these kinds of things? And thankfully for us, they did include these more everyday elements. And so we have this incredible window into the daily lives of people.
Speaker #0
Yeah. And I love that the mundane stuff is really where it's at, I think. So let's talk about, you know, the actual butchery, the butchering. Yeah. You know, it's not like you could just set up shop anywhere in town. Yeah. There was a lot of regulation around this, wasn't there?
Speaker #1
Yeah, there's all kinds of regulations. Like prices are set by the authorities. Yeah. They have a tax, a gabelle, they call it, which is levied on every animal that's slaughtered. Okay. So it's a way for them to get revenue, obviously, and they even regulate the rent. for the butcher stalls themselves. Oh, wow. So they control the price of the meat. They control where the meat can be sold. Right. And they even control kind of how much the butchers are making by setting the rent for the stalls.
Speaker #0
So it sounds like they were really trying to control the meat supply, which makes sense. It's such an important commodity. Yeah. Were there any issues that they were trying to target with all this regulation or things that were coming up over and over again?
Speaker #1
Yeah. So unfair competition was a big concern, which isn't surprising when you've got you know, lots of different people trying to make a living. They regulated where the animals could be slaughtered. They generally had to be slaughtered either within the butcher's premises or at designated accourciaries, which were basically slaughterhouses outside of the city walls, probably for reasons of sanitation.
Speaker #0
Okay.
Speaker #1
And then there's this interesting little tidbit. Four times a year, butchers were entitled to a gratuity of tongues.
Speaker #0
Free tongues.
Speaker #1
Free tongues. four times a year.
Speaker #0
Wow. I like that perk.
Speaker #1
Right. It makes you wonder about like what was the relative value of different parts of the animal and how are those kind of distributed among the population?
Speaker #0
So interesting. So it sounds like the butchers, you know, weren't just passive in this process of all this regulation. They actually had their own organization.
Speaker #1
Yeah. They had the Corporation de Boucher, which was a guild. basically, and it had a lot of influence.
Speaker #0
That sounds like they did.
Speaker #1
Yeah, they would challenge decisions that were made by the Council of 200, especially around pricing. Like when the council would set prices that the butchers didn't think were fair, they would say, no, we're not going to sell at this price.
Speaker #0
Wow, so they could really push back against the authorities.
Speaker #1
They could.
Speaker #0
That's amazing.
Speaker #1
Yeah, and there's a really great example. In 1540, the Grand Council actually decreed that any butcher who refused to swear a prescribed oath but kept selling meat would be punished.
Speaker #0
So they were really trying to clamp down.
Speaker #1
Yeah, they were trying to get control over these butchers.
Speaker #0
Okay, so how did all this back and forth, this tension affect the average Genevan? What did they have to pay for their meat?
Speaker #1
Well, the records actually give us prices for beef and mutton over several decades. Oh, wow. From 1513 to 1549. And you can really see the market responding to different factors. Sometimes prices go up, sometimes they go down. And the authorities are trying to control that volatility with these regulations. Yeah. Now, one interesting thing is that butchers were only allowed to sell by weight. They couldn't sell by the piece, which makes sense when you think about it from a taxation and control perspective. They want to be able to track exactly how much meat is being sold and they want to make sure that everyone's being taxed fairly. And later on in the records, actually, it says explicitly that selling by the piece is prohibited.
Speaker #0
That's so interesting. OK, so let's talk about this chair-a-mody tear, which is the meat lease. What was that all about?
Speaker #1
Yeah, so the cherry modiatera is basically the city leasing out the right to sell meat. And collect the taxes within a certain area.
Speaker #0
So they're selling the right to sell meat.
Speaker #1
Exactly. And individuals would bid on this, right? Okay. And we know, for example, that a guy named Claude Bernard held this lease in 1536. And actually, in the same year, he complains he can't pay the full amount because of the wars that are going on that are affecting the availability of meat.
Speaker #0
So even back then, even essential goods like meat were subject to these big geopolitical forces. Yeah,
Speaker #1
absolutely.
Speaker #0
Really interesting. Yeah. And this kind of ties into the meat tax that we talked about earlier, which also changed during this period.
Speaker #1
Yeah, that's right. It went from being a percentage, a sue per florin of the meat's value to a per animal tax. Oh, interesting. And this happened in 1536 at the request of the butchers.
Speaker #0
So the butchers themselves wanted this change.
Speaker #1
They did. Okay. And we know that in April 1536, they set the initial rates for the different animals. The Boeufs-Massel, which is a male bovine. Okay. The Vosch, the cow. Okay. Mouton, which is mutton veau, which is veal, and pork, which is pork. Okay. And interestingly, these rates weren't set in stone immediately. There were adjustments within days. By April 12th, they had settled on final rates for beef cow, pork, mutton, ewe, and veal. And amazingly, those rates stayed pretty consistent over the following decades.
Speaker #0
So they found a system that worked.
Speaker #1
Yeah. It seems so.
Speaker #0
Amazing. Yeah. So were there taxes on other types of meat besides just, you know, the standard beef and pork and all that?
Speaker #1
Yes. Bovine tongues were taxed separately. And this actually led to a conflict in 1525 between Genevan butchers and the Duke of Savoy over who had the right to collect this tax. Wow. And there were also taxes on what they call secondary meats and fat meats like beef, which was taxed at a higher rate. Interesting. And actually there's a decree from 1521 that gives us a much broader picture of. the kinds of meat that people were eating beyond beef, cow, mutton, sheep, pork, and veal. They also had poultry and game.
Speaker #0
Oh, so they were eating a pretty diverse diet, at least some people were.
Speaker #1
It seems so.
Speaker #0
Interesting. Yeah. So let's talk about where you could actually find these butcheries in Geneva. Where were they located? Well,
Speaker #1
in 1535, there were three confirmed butcheries. There was one at Langemont, one at Ponterone, and one at Place des Gifes, which was also called Juverie or Grand Mezel. Near the Saint-Germain church.
Speaker #0
Just three for the whole city. Yeah,
Speaker #1
that's all we have records of.
Speaker #0
Wow, so those must have been pretty important places.
Speaker #1
They must have been. Yeah. And the location of the main butchery, the Grand Boucherie, was actually a bit of a controversy.
Speaker #0
Oh, really?
Speaker #1
Yeah. In April 1536, the Grand Council decided to move it near the Maison de la Ville. Okay. Because they said the Place de l'Echevereur was an unfavorable location.
Speaker #0
You can just imagine the conversations about where the main butcher shop should be.
Speaker #1
Right. Like, where is the best place for everyone to access this important service? Yeah. And interestingly enough, within a year, there were discussions about moving it back. Oh, wow. To the original location. So it seems like the butchers had their own preferences and they weren't afraid to voice them.
Speaker #0
Yeah, they weren't going to just take this lying down.
Speaker #1
Exactly.
Speaker #0
And another interesting point is that Saint-Gervais, despite having a large population, didn't have a butchery at all. Right, right. And apparently that was for political reasons. They didn't trust the largely foreign inhabitants of Saint-Gervais.
Speaker #1
Wow. So even something as basic as a butcher shop was tied up in politics.
Speaker #0
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker #1
So we talked about taxes, we talked about leases, but what about rent? I mean, rent must have been a big expense for these butchers.
Speaker #0
It was. And there's a really interesting example from mid-April 1536, where the Longemal butchers actually requested a rent reduction. Okay. They said they weren't selling as much meat because a lot of the Catholics had left Geneva and the suburbs had been destroyed.
Speaker #1
So they were feeling the economic effects of these broader changes. Yeah. Interesting. And what did the authorities do?
Speaker #0
They agreed to reduce the rent. They did? Yeah, at least for the 12 premier's banches, which are like the prime stalls. Okay. But in contrast, the butchers in Vanduvers were paying a much higher rent.
Speaker #1
Oh, wow. So there were definitely discrepancies depending on your location. Yeah. And were there any times when butchers just couldn't pay their rent at all? There are instances of that as well in the records where butchers are struggling to make ends meet.
Speaker #0
Yeah, it sounds like a tough business.
Speaker #1
It was.
Speaker #0
So it sounds like a lot of regulations, a lot of challenges for the butchers. Yeah. What about the consumers? Were there any measures in place to protect them?
Speaker #1
Yeah, so they had officials whose job it was to oversee the butchers and make sure they were charging fair prices. Okay. And in 1537, there was actually a proposal to put scales in the grand boucherie so they could weigh the meat in front of the customer.
Speaker #0
So the customer knew they were getting what they paid for.
Speaker #1
Exactly. It's a very early form of consumer protection.
Speaker #0
That's really interesting.
Speaker #1
Yeah. And it wasn't just about the prices. The butchers also got in trouble for trying to avoid paying their tithes on oats.
Speaker #0
So they were really trying to make sure these butchers were following all the rules.
Speaker #1
Yeah. They were trying to keep them honest.
Speaker #0
And one other thing I thought was interesting is this idea of liberty. for the butchers, which sounds good on the surface, but it actually came with a bit of a catch.
Speaker #1
Yeah. So liberty meant that the butchers could set their own prices. OK. But it also meant that they lost their exclusive right to sell meat.
Speaker #0
Oh, so now they had competition.
Speaker #1
Exactly. Foreigners were allowed to come in and sell meat at the same price.
Speaker #0
So they had to choose between freedom and a monopoly. Yeah,
Speaker #1
exactly.
Speaker #0
That's fascinating.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
So we've talked about taxes and leases and rent and all that. But there was also this other thing. The offense debouché, which means the butcher's offenses lease. What was that all about?
Speaker #1
Yeah. So this was basically the city leasing out the right to collect fines from butchers who broke the rules. Okay. And a guy named Louis Rommel was one of the early holders of this lease. Oh, wow. And we know that in 1542 and 1543, they were paying a certain amount for this right to collect these fines.
Speaker #0
And what kinds of things were the butchers getting fined for?
Speaker #1
Well, they could get fined for selling above the set price. Oh. And the buyers could also get fined for paying more than the set price.
Speaker #0
Oh, wow. So they went both ways.
Speaker #1
Yeah, they were really trying to control the market. And they kept emphasizing that meat should be sold au balance at the scales.
Speaker #0
So everything had to be weighed and measured.
Speaker #1
Yeah. Transparency was key.
Speaker #0
So with all these rules, all this oversight, there must have been some resistance from the butchers, right?
Speaker #1
Absolutely. Absolutely. Resistance was a... constant problem.
Speaker #0
In what ways?
Speaker #1
Well sometimes they would just refuse to slaughter or sell meat at the fixed prices. Really? Yeah and in July 1544 the seigneury actually had to order the public criers to announce the regulations and enforce them against the butchers.
Speaker #0
They were really trying to crack down.
Speaker #1
They were and there's even a pretty big scandal in April 1548.
Speaker #0
Oh what happened?
Speaker #1
Well, the butchers colluded. They actually signed a contract to avoid buying livestock from Bernie's subjects.
Speaker #0
Wow. So they were trying to control the supply?
Speaker #1
Yeah, it was like a cartel.
Speaker #0
And what happened?
Speaker #1
Well, the authorities found out they arrested some of the butchers and they annulled the contract.
Speaker #0
So they weren't messing around? Nope. Okay, so last question. Was there any kind of quality control for the meat?
Speaker #1
Yeah. Believe it or not, there was. In October 1540, they actually decided to appoint two people in each butchery. whose job it was to inspect the meat and make sure it was good quality.
Speaker #0
Wow. So they had like meat inspectors.
Speaker #1
Exactly.
Speaker #0
That's amazing. It sounds like they were really trying to protect the consumers.
Speaker #1
Yeah, they were.
Speaker #0
Wow. This has been so fascinating. I never would have thought that there would be so much to say about butchers in 16th century Geneva.
Speaker #1
It's really amazing the level of detail that's in these records.
Speaker #0
It really gives you a sense of what daily life was like back then. Yeah. All the challenge, all the regulations. Yeah.
Speaker #1
And how important something as simple as meat was to the functioning of society.
Speaker #0
Exactly. So it makes you think, doesn't it? Like how do those challenges compare to the challenges we face today with our food system?
Speaker #1
Yeah. Like what's changed and what's stayed the same?
Speaker #0
Yeah. Like are we still dealing with some of the same fundamental issues just in a different form?
Speaker #1
Exactly. And it really highlights how important it is to understand the history of our food systems.
Speaker #0
Absolutely. Because. Those historical forces are still shaping our lives today.
Speaker #1
Yeah, so we encourage you to go and do some research. Look into the history of your own local food systems and see what you can find.
Speaker #0
Yeah, you might be surprised by what you discover.
Speaker #1
You might be.
Speaker #0
All right, thanks for joining us for this deep dive.
Speaker #1
Thanks for having me.
Speaker #0
We'll see you next time.

About Really Calvin, is this an ideal life? A historical podcast.

Discover:

- The human side of John Calvin beyond the pulpit

- Power struggles and political intrigue in the Genevan council chambers

- How ordinary people navigated the tumultuous waters of religious change

- Surprising facts that rewrite our understanding of this pivotal period

We're passionate about bringing the history of Calvin's Geneva to life. Join the conversation and access exclusive documents, episode transcripts, and more on my website at https://geneva16th.org/ !

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

About Really Calvin, is this an ideal life? A historical podcast.

Discover:

- The human side of John Calvin beyond the pulpit

- Power struggles and political intrigue in the Genevan council chambers

- How ordinary people navigated the tumultuous waters of religious change

- Surprising facts that rewrite our understanding of this pivotal period

We're passionate about bringing the history of Calvin's Geneva to life. Join the conversation and access exclusive documents, episode transcripts, and more on my website at https://geneva16th.org/ !

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Description

**********

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Transcription

Speaker #0
All right, so you're back with us for another deep dive. And today we're going somewhere really interesting. We're going to 16th century Geneva.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
And we're going to be using the Regisseur du Conseil, which is like their council minutes, basically.
Speaker #1
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker #0
And we're going to be looking at something kind of surprising. I think something that I hadn't really thought much about before, but really, really fascinating once you kind of get into the details. And that is butchers. and butcheries.
Speaker #1
That's right. We're diving into this section called Viande et Boucherie, Ecourcheries, Rotisseries, Triperies, which kind of covers the whole gamut of meat in 16th century Geneva. But we're going to focus squarely on the butchers. And what's really amazing is when you look at these records, the most abundant animal-related mentions are all about food. Yeah. Meat in particular. Yeah,
Speaker #0
that's right. I mean, when you think about it, it's like, well, yeah, of course. But it's just sort of funny to think about, like, that's what they decided to record. record. It's like the most important thing that they're dealing with animals for is like eating them pretty much.
Speaker #1
Absolutely. And it's not even a given, right? Like even the people who are compiling these registers are debating amongst themselves, like, is this too mundane? Should we even be writing this down for posterity or should we stick to the big issues of religion and finance and these kinds of things? And thankfully for us, they did include these more everyday elements. And so we have this incredible window into the daily lives of people.
Speaker #0
Yeah. And I love that the mundane stuff is really where it's at, I think. So let's talk about, you know, the actual butchery, the butchering. Yeah. You know, it's not like you could just set up shop anywhere in town. Yeah. There was a lot of regulation around this, wasn't there?
Speaker #1
Yeah, there's all kinds of regulations. Like prices are set by the authorities. Yeah. They have a tax, a gabelle, they call it, which is levied on every animal that's slaughtered. Okay. So it's a way for them to get revenue, obviously, and they even regulate the rent. for the butcher stalls themselves. Oh, wow. So they control the price of the meat. They control where the meat can be sold. Right. And they even control kind of how much the butchers are making by setting the rent for the stalls.
Speaker #0
So it sounds like they were really trying to control the meat supply, which makes sense. It's such an important commodity. Yeah. Were there any issues that they were trying to target with all this regulation or things that were coming up over and over again?
Speaker #1
Yeah. So unfair competition was a big concern, which isn't surprising when you've got you know, lots of different people trying to make a living. They regulated where the animals could be slaughtered. They generally had to be slaughtered either within the butcher's premises or at designated accourciaries, which were basically slaughterhouses outside of the city walls, probably for reasons of sanitation.
Speaker #0
Okay.
Speaker #1
And then there's this interesting little tidbit. Four times a year, butchers were entitled to a gratuity of tongues.
Speaker #0
Free tongues.
Speaker #1
Free tongues. four times a year.
Speaker #0
Wow. I like that perk.
Speaker #1
Right. It makes you wonder about like what was the relative value of different parts of the animal and how are those kind of distributed among the population?
Speaker #0
So interesting. So it sounds like the butchers, you know, weren't just passive in this process of all this regulation. They actually had their own organization.
Speaker #1
Yeah. They had the Corporation de Boucher, which was a guild. basically, and it had a lot of influence.
Speaker #0
That sounds like they did.
Speaker #1
Yeah, they would challenge decisions that were made by the Council of 200, especially around pricing. Like when the council would set prices that the butchers didn't think were fair, they would say, no, we're not going to sell at this price.
Speaker #0
Wow, so they could really push back against the authorities.
Speaker #1
They could.
Speaker #0
That's amazing.
Speaker #1
Yeah, and there's a really great example. In 1540, the Grand Council actually decreed that any butcher who refused to swear a prescribed oath but kept selling meat would be punished.
Speaker #0
So they were really trying to clamp down.
Speaker #1
Yeah, they were trying to get control over these butchers.
Speaker #0
Okay, so how did all this back and forth, this tension affect the average Genevan? What did they have to pay for their meat?
Speaker #1
Well, the records actually give us prices for beef and mutton over several decades. Oh, wow. From 1513 to 1549. And you can really see the market responding to different factors. Sometimes prices go up, sometimes they go down. And the authorities are trying to control that volatility with these regulations. Yeah. Now, one interesting thing is that butchers were only allowed to sell by weight. They couldn't sell by the piece, which makes sense when you think about it from a taxation and control perspective. They want to be able to track exactly how much meat is being sold and they want to make sure that everyone's being taxed fairly. And later on in the records, actually, it says explicitly that selling by the piece is prohibited.
Speaker #0
That's so interesting. OK, so let's talk about this chair-a-mody tear, which is the meat lease. What was that all about?
Speaker #1
Yeah, so the cherry modiatera is basically the city leasing out the right to sell meat. And collect the taxes within a certain area.
Speaker #0
So they're selling the right to sell meat.
Speaker #1
Exactly. And individuals would bid on this, right? Okay. And we know, for example, that a guy named Claude Bernard held this lease in 1536. And actually, in the same year, he complains he can't pay the full amount because of the wars that are going on that are affecting the availability of meat.
Speaker #0
So even back then, even essential goods like meat were subject to these big geopolitical forces. Yeah,
Speaker #1
absolutely.
Speaker #0
Really interesting. Yeah. And this kind of ties into the meat tax that we talked about earlier, which also changed during this period.
Speaker #1
Yeah, that's right. It went from being a percentage, a sue per florin of the meat's value to a per animal tax. Oh, interesting. And this happened in 1536 at the request of the butchers.
Speaker #0
So the butchers themselves wanted this change.
Speaker #1
They did. Okay. And we know that in April 1536, they set the initial rates for the different animals. The Boeufs-Massel, which is a male bovine. Okay. The Vosch, the cow. Okay. Mouton, which is mutton veau, which is veal, and pork, which is pork. Okay. And interestingly, these rates weren't set in stone immediately. There were adjustments within days. By April 12th, they had settled on final rates for beef cow, pork, mutton, ewe, and veal. And amazingly, those rates stayed pretty consistent over the following decades.
Speaker #0
So they found a system that worked.
Speaker #1
Yeah. It seems so.
Speaker #0
Amazing. Yeah. So were there taxes on other types of meat besides just, you know, the standard beef and pork and all that?
Speaker #1
Yes. Bovine tongues were taxed separately. And this actually led to a conflict in 1525 between Genevan butchers and the Duke of Savoy over who had the right to collect this tax. Wow. And there were also taxes on what they call secondary meats and fat meats like beef, which was taxed at a higher rate. Interesting. And actually there's a decree from 1521 that gives us a much broader picture of. the kinds of meat that people were eating beyond beef, cow, mutton, sheep, pork, and veal. They also had poultry and game.
Speaker #0
Oh, so they were eating a pretty diverse diet, at least some people were.
Speaker #1
It seems so.
Speaker #0
Interesting. Yeah. So let's talk about where you could actually find these butcheries in Geneva. Where were they located? Well,
Speaker #1
in 1535, there were three confirmed butcheries. There was one at Langemont, one at Ponterone, and one at Place des Gifes, which was also called Juverie or Grand Mezel. Near the Saint-Germain church.
Speaker #0
Just three for the whole city. Yeah,
Speaker #1
that's all we have records of.
Speaker #0
Wow, so those must have been pretty important places.
Speaker #1
They must have been. Yeah. And the location of the main butchery, the Grand Boucherie, was actually a bit of a controversy.
Speaker #0
Oh, really?
Speaker #1
Yeah. In April 1536, the Grand Council decided to move it near the Maison de la Ville. Okay. Because they said the Place de l'Echevereur was an unfavorable location.
Speaker #0
You can just imagine the conversations about where the main butcher shop should be.
Speaker #1
Right. Like, where is the best place for everyone to access this important service? Yeah. And interestingly enough, within a year, there were discussions about moving it back. Oh, wow. To the original location. So it seems like the butchers had their own preferences and they weren't afraid to voice them.
Speaker #0
Yeah, they weren't going to just take this lying down.
Speaker #1
Exactly.
Speaker #0
And another interesting point is that Saint-Gervais, despite having a large population, didn't have a butchery at all. Right, right. And apparently that was for political reasons. They didn't trust the largely foreign inhabitants of Saint-Gervais.
Speaker #1
Wow. So even something as basic as a butcher shop was tied up in politics.
Speaker #0
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker #1
So we talked about taxes, we talked about leases, but what about rent? I mean, rent must have been a big expense for these butchers.
Speaker #0
It was. And there's a really interesting example from mid-April 1536, where the Longemal butchers actually requested a rent reduction. Okay. They said they weren't selling as much meat because a lot of the Catholics had left Geneva and the suburbs had been destroyed.
Speaker #1
So they were feeling the economic effects of these broader changes. Yeah. Interesting. And what did the authorities do?
Speaker #0
They agreed to reduce the rent. They did? Yeah, at least for the 12 premier's banches, which are like the prime stalls. Okay. But in contrast, the butchers in Vanduvers were paying a much higher rent.
Speaker #1
Oh, wow. So there were definitely discrepancies depending on your location. Yeah. And were there any times when butchers just couldn't pay their rent at all? There are instances of that as well in the records where butchers are struggling to make ends meet.
Speaker #0
Yeah, it sounds like a tough business.
Speaker #1
It was.
Speaker #0
So it sounds like a lot of regulations, a lot of challenges for the butchers. Yeah. What about the consumers? Were there any measures in place to protect them?
Speaker #1
Yeah, so they had officials whose job it was to oversee the butchers and make sure they were charging fair prices. Okay. And in 1537, there was actually a proposal to put scales in the grand boucherie so they could weigh the meat in front of the customer.
Speaker #0
So the customer knew they were getting what they paid for.
Speaker #1
Exactly. It's a very early form of consumer protection.
Speaker #0
That's really interesting.
Speaker #1
Yeah. And it wasn't just about the prices. The butchers also got in trouble for trying to avoid paying their tithes on oats.
Speaker #0
So they were really trying to make sure these butchers were following all the rules.
Speaker #1
Yeah. They were trying to keep them honest.
Speaker #0
And one other thing I thought was interesting is this idea of liberty. for the butchers, which sounds good on the surface, but it actually came with a bit of a catch.
Speaker #1
Yeah. So liberty meant that the butchers could set their own prices. OK. But it also meant that they lost their exclusive right to sell meat.
Speaker #0
Oh, so now they had competition.
Speaker #1
Exactly. Foreigners were allowed to come in and sell meat at the same price.
Speaker #0
So they had to choose between freedom and a monopoly. Yeah,
Speaker #1
exactly.
Speaker #0
That's fascinating.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
So we've talked about taxes and leases and rent and all that. But there was also this other thing. The offense debouché, which means the butcher's offenses lease. What was that all about?
Speaker #1
Yeah. So this was basically the city leasing out the right to collect fines from butchers who broke the rules. Okay. And a guy named Louis Rommel was one of the early holders of this lease. Oh, wow. And we know that in 1542 and 1543, they were paying a certain amount for this right to collect these fines.
Speaker #0
And what kinds of things were the butchers getting fined for?
Speaker #1
Well, they could get fined for selling above the set price. Oh. And the buyers could also get fined for paying more than the set price.
Speaker #0
Oh, wow. So they went both ways.
Speaker #1
Yeah, they were really trying to control the market. And they kept emphasizing that meat should be sold au balance at the scales.
Speaker #0
So everything had to be weighed and measured.
Speaker #1
Yeah. Transparency was key.
Speaker #0
So with all these rules, all this oversight, there must have been some resistance from the butchers, right?
Speaker #1
Absolutely. Absolutely. Resistance was a... constant problem.
Speaker #0
In what ways?
Speaker #1
Well sometimes they would just refuse to slaughter or sell meat at the fixed prices. Really? Yeah and in July 1544 the seigneury actually had to order the public criers to announce the regulations and enforce them against the butchers.
Speaker #0
They were really trying to crack down.
Speaker #1
They were and there's even a pretty big scandal in April 1548.
Speaker #0
Oh what happened?
Speaker #1
Well, the butchers colluded. They actually signed a contract to avoid buying livestock from Bernie's subjects.
Speaker #0
Wow. So they were trying to control the supply?
Speaker #1
Yeah, it was like a cartel.
Speaker #0
And what happened?
Speaker #1
Well, the authorities found out they arrested some of the butchers and they annulled the contract.
Speaker #0
So they weren't messing around? Nope. Okay, so last question. Was there any kind of quality control for the meat?
Speaker #1
Yeah. Believe it or not, there was. In October 1540, they actually decided to appoint two people in each butchery. whose job it was to inspect the meat and make sure it was good quality.
Speaker #0
Wow. So they had like meat inspectors.
Speaker #1
Exactly.
Speaker #0
That's amazing. It sounds like they were really trying to protect the consumers.
Speaker #1
Yeah, they were.
Speaker #0
Wow. This has been so fascinating. I never would have thought that there would be so much to say about butchers in 16th century Geneva.
Speaker #1
It's really amazing the level of detail that's in these records.
Speaker #0
It really gives you a sense of what daily life was like back then. Yeah. All the challenge, all the regulations. Yeah.
Speaker #1
And how important something as simple as meat was to the functioning of society.
Speaker #0
Exactly. So it makes you think, doesn't it? Like how do those challenges compare to the challenges we face today with our food system?
Speaker #1
Yeah. Like what's changed and what's stayed the same?
Speaker #0
Yeah. Like are we still dealing with some of the same fundamental issues just in a different form?
Speaker #1
Exactly. And it really highlights how important it is to understand the history of our food systems.
Speaker #0
Absolutely. Because. Those historical forces are still shaping our lives today.
Speaker #1
Yeah, so we encourage you to go and do some research. Look into the history of your own local food systems and see what you can find.
Speaker #0
Yeah, you might be surprised by what you discover.
Speaker #1
You might be.
Speaker #0
All right, thanks for joining us for this deep dive.
Speaker #1
Thanks for having me.
Speaker #0
We'll see you next time.

About Really Calvin, is this an ideal life? A historical podcast.

Discover:

- The human side of John Calvin beyond the pulpit

- Power struggles and political intrigue in the Genevan council chambers

- How ordinary people navigated the tumultuous waters of religious change

- Surprising facts that rewrite our understanding of this pivotal period

We're passionate about bringing the history of Calvin's Geneva to life. Join the conversation and access exclusive documents, episode transcripts, and more on my website at https://geneva16th.org/ !

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

About Really Calvin, is this an ideal life? A historical podcast.

Discover:

- The human side of John Calvin beyond the pulpit

- Power struggles and political intrigue in the Genevan council chambers

- How ordinary people navigated the tumultuous waters of religious change

- Surprising facts that rewrite our understanding of this pivotal period

We're passionate about bringing the history of Calvin's Geneva to life. Join the conversation and access exclusive documents, episode transcripts, and more on my website at https://geneva16th.org/ !

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

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