Transcription

• Speaker #0

  Welcome to the Hummingbird Collective podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Noble, head of global engagement, creative peacebuilding, and inner development at the Co-Initiatives of Change Foundation. The world feels heavy right now, and it's tempting to look away, but we're inspired by the legend of the tiny hummingbird who kept carrying single drops of water to the flames in the forest. while the other larger animals froze. When those animals asked what difference the hummingbird thought she could make, she said, I'm doing the best that I can. This podcast series are the stories of people carrying their drops. Our method is intercultural dialogue, the art of listening and speaking across our differences. We're here to lift our illusion of insignificance one conversation at a time. There was once a wise mediator who said, All conflicts can be resolved. Wars and conflicts are not inevitable. They are caused by human beings. There are always interests that are furthered by war. Therefore, those who have power and influence can also stop them. Peace is a question of will. Those wise words were spoken by Martti Atasari, Nobel Peace Prize laureate from Finland. And yet, today, the number of violent conflicts around the world is at its highest point in decades. Our narratives are full of war. The need for people... who know how to build bridges across the deepest divides has never been greater. Mediators play a key role in facilitating conversations across the deepest human divides imaginable. And that is what today's guest has dedicated her life to make possible. Her story is about what it really takes to sit in a room with people who are very different from you, who mistrust and despise each other and somehow are able to find a way through. And what that also teaches us about the conversations we have in our... day-to-day lives. Antje Herberg has spent more than two decades at the intersection of conflict, mediation, and political transition, advising conflict parties and mediators on decisions with real societal consequences and facilitating dialogue between adversaries. Her work has taken her to Niger, the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Ukraine, the Caucasus, Yemen, Indonesia, Russia, and elsewhere. She has worked within and alongside the European Union, and the United Nations. Her research focuses on what she calls the blind spots in conflict work, what gets overlooked in moments of tension and decision. She's sharing her insights from the field through writing and her own podcast, Masterpiece. Anxie, we're so happy to have you with us here today.

• Speaker #1

  And I'm happy to be here with you, Sarah.

• Speaker #0

  So Anxie, you've been in rooms where people have been fighting wars against each other and there's been a lot of conflict. Most of our listeners will never be in such a room. Can you tell us what it feels like when you walk into that room as a mediator?

• Speaker #1

  Well, actually, Sarah, I think that we've all experienced these kind of situations where we experience tension and distrust. So I think we all can probably relate to this. What it feels like after a civil war or during a civil war is maybe a different story because there you see profound hatred and distrust at the very visceral level. So when you sit in such a room with contending parties who might or might not want to make a peace agreement, you feel a lot of toxic tension in the room. And you as a mediator have the role to take that Toxin out in a way, through the way you speak, the way you think, the way you engage with the parties and the way you structure a dialogue. And that is the challenge.

• Speaker #0

  And what's, what, what, because I think there's also a lot of misperception about what a mediator actually is. Can you tell us in your own words, in very simple words, what is the role of a mediator in a... in mediating a conflict?

• Speaker #1

  Yes, so a mediator is a third party who supports the parties who are in a conflict to structure a dialogue and to help them to come up with a solution that's acceptable to all. That's what it is at its very essence. But I think it's more than a method. It's also... an attitude. It's a way of really getting people to relate to one another again. It's a deeply human process in which storytelling is used as well, Sarah, in which everybody gets to tell their story and the mediator works with these stories to create empathy with the one and the other party. So a mediator in that sense is, Marti Atisari, whom you cited, is like a midwife. So you're helping to get peace born between those who are contending and making those who are contending and those who hate each other, maybe not to love each other, but at least to own that peace.

• Speaker #0

  Okay, that's very helpful. And how did you become a mediator? Well,

• Speaker #1

  that's always a good question because... you know mediator is not sort of on your list when you graduate you know for most of the people but you come probably um you become a mediator by circumstances your relationship to conflict your experiences i didn't become a mediator um just by by prescription in a sense but uh i experienced conflict myself. I left my home very early at the age of 16 and had always looked for something that helps to mitigate conflict, not even in my immediate surroundings. And I was working in Russia to help to young people to participate. in the elections very early in the 90s already. And through that, I was catapulted into a war that was ongoing in Russia, which is in Chechnya. And I saw how people so deeply suffer that I tagged on to people who were working in the international community and the OCE and asked them whether I could help them. And as a very sort of menial helper by providing information at the beginning or carrying suitcases or briefcases, I actually advanced myself to be part of this community. So you don't just become it. I think that you work quite hard to get to that point where you could also sit at the table.

• Speaker #0

  And so let's talk about. that table in terms of when we think about mediation and we think about peace agreements and bringing people around a table, what does it take to bring people who are at war with each other to sit around a table?

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, but many experiences here, Sarah. Maybe I'd like to tell you the story about, you know, it's also getting the people to the table that... requires a lot of time and energy. So you spend actually most of the time, 80% of a mediation process, not trying to convince parties to come to the table, but giving them, constructing a room, which is not necessarily physical, that feels safe, where they can talk, where they have a feeling that you're not using or manipulating the information that they give. And that is actually a big art. So once they come to the table, and I just want to tell you the story about that happened to me as a younger peacemaker in Nigeria, you have to set the ground rules. And that is very hard because in a way, because you're so happy that these people even sit and come to your room and want to sit at the table. that you don't want necessarily immediately to become a policewoman or a policeman and say, okay, these are the rules here. So in Nigeria, the people came to the room and they came with weapons. And there was no way I was going to sit with these parties at the table with a weapon in my hand. It made me feel uncomfortable. And so in a very Yep. strict way. I asked them to leave those weapons in front of the room. And I think they could hardly believe, you know, that a woman, a white woman, younger woman would say something like this. And yeah, these soldiers and soldiers of peace, they called themselves, but they were more soldiers of war. And so in the end, I said, look, you have the choice. You either do this or I walk out and this whole process is over. And in the end, they left that those weapons and I promised them in return that they will have a. a process in which they will be listened and we will not leave the room until we have talked it all out. And they were so impressed by this, I think, by me making that point that I was able to actually, in the end, steer that process much more with much more authority, but positive authority and trust, because I set those conditions and I wasn't looking necessarily to create. harmony between them and me, but I showed them that I needed that space as well, and they showed it as well. So I think that is really important that you always respect your own needs as a professional in such a process.

• Speaker #0

  Great. That's a very useful example, Anxie. You talked about the importance of building trust, which seems to also be at the heart of what it takes to mediate conflict. How have you managed to build trust? What are some of the lessons that you've learned over your mediation career?

• Speaker #1

  Yes, so trust is about not giving away information that is owned by somebody else, for example. Trust is to be confidential when it's required of you. Trust is also to be deeply human, to actually not artificially show that humanity, but to really care about somebody. I think that is really important. And I think the most important part of it is also to be able to listen and show that people are being listened to and to react to that in a very sensitive fashion. I think that is the most important piece of trust. trust building for a mediator. And it's also important that you say and you show to your parties that it's not your process, but it is the ones that is by the party. So in a way, it's a service leadership in a sense. Right. So maybe I could also say something about trust is also that you. engage through presence to the way of being with somebody at this moment. It's both physical that you show them that you are with them, but it is also definitely an attitude you have to hold in your mind, because if you are with somebody, you're not thinking about 500 other things at the same time, which happens to all of us. And people just, I think physically they can feel it. And I think that. But neurologically speaking, it plays a huge role as well.

• Speaker #0

  That's very helpful. And you also do research on the blind spots of mediation and what kind of gets overlooked in the moments of tension. Can you tell us a little bit more about that?

• Speaker #1

  Yes. So I came across this blind spots idea, so to say, because I felt that a little bit blind being in this IHEL zone. two years ago when first my mission was asked to leave, when I was working for an official EU mission, and then decided really to spend time to understand what has actually happened. And I think it was probably one of the most useful things I ever did in my career, is taking a little bit of time out to recenter yourself and to be able to open your mind to see those blind spots because we are so busy in our lives and always working on multiple projects and processes that sometimes we don't see, as you say in English, the wood from the trees anymore. So being able to slow down and to have many long conversations with people and taking off your different... lenses you have as well, helped me to discover these blind spots, things we don't see on the surface, maybe when engaging with conflict. So for me, Maybe some of these blind spots is one of them is the whole question of what is neutrality? You know, mediators are always told to be neutral, which is not really for me anymore a position, but it is a discipline that you hold in your head. And that means that you take away your assumptions, even your education and your cultural background and to really. fully open yourself to somebody else or some other actors to be able to understand what's really driving a conflict. Maybe another one, which is also something that we like to do in our international community, is that we focus a lot on process. Process design is something that's very important for a mediation experience. experts to know about. So process design meets, when do I engage with people? When do they speak? How do I build the agenda? And it's important and essential for us because it makes, it helps us to control the process as well. And it gives parties a security. But what we sometimes forget and what we have maybe forgotten over time is the relationship, the relationship aspect. So you If you lose the relationship over the process, the process doesn't mean anything. So I think that is a huge blind spot. And maybe the third one is the whole aspect of us being very result-oriented and solution-oriented in our world, that we always want to walk away with a takeaway or we want to walk away with a solution. and solve the conflict. But sometimes these things take a lot of time and even the matter of being in dialogue and exchanging on dialogue is a goal in itself. And if we remain in this dialogue with one another and ask each other the meaningful questions, then the... End goal, the transformation of the conflict is inside.

• Speaker #0

  That's very helpful, Anche. So these processes are also quite high stakes. They can be very draining emotionally.

• Speaker #1

  How do you resource yourself? What keeps you going when things feel impossible? Sarah, to tell you the truth is I've been on the edge a few times in my life. I've been... also ill and I've noticed that many mediators or high-level officials that are engaging in conflict are sometimes not very well and I've realized that we spend far too little time and energy and attention to our own mental well-being because you're taking in quite a lot of stuff big things um that a human brain needs to process. So the way of how I personally deal with it is that I started to take micro moments of peace, I call them. So I take a few moments every day and try to notice something small and beautiful and acknowledge that and take that time. And I think that takes... a lot of conditioning. So I'm somebody who likes to meditate and I would recommend it to everybody, even if it's only five minutes a day. And, you know, have a reflective practice, meaning always asking yourself, even though sometimes it's really painful, why am I doing what I'm doing? Where is it taking me at the moment? Does it make sense? And it's hard work. But it's worth it.

• Speaker #0

  Thank you, Anshe. Because most of our listeners will never mediate an international conflict, but they may have conflict in their own lives, with their family, in the workplace. What do you think you've learned in that high-level mediation role that people can apply in their own lives?

• Speaker #1

  I think one of the most useful skills to have is to ask the right questions. and to listen well. Now that sounds almost superficial, but let me explain that a little bit. It is about not really... only listen to what they say, but why they're saying it. So I always look at a conflict like an onion that you need to peel layers. And there's so many layers in an onion. So you ask, why is this person saying this to me right now? Is it saying, is it something that has something to do with that person? Is that person trying to reveal just a fact? What does the person want me to do or the other person to do? Is it a message to act upon something? There's so many layers. And even when I'm standing at a traffic light and my husband says the light is red and I get upset, maybe he was just... trying to reveal a fact, but I felt that he was telling me that I never watch the traffic light correctly, right? So these things happen all the time. And so always question why they're saying what they say, because there might be a really important message behind that that could be useful for your relationship. Definitely. And what have you found have been And perhaps some of the... mistakes or the things to avoid when mediating a conflict? Well, so we learn mostly from our mistakes, I think, in mediation. And maybe just let me tell you a little story that when I just started as a mediator and I was asked by a faith-based organization to mediate an internal conflict. And I walked in there and I did everything by the school book. And we have incredible training in mediation and conflict resolution. And then you try it out, obviously. So you ask everybody, what's your position? Why are you saying what you're saying? And you go around the room. And then I said, well, we can take now the emotions out of it. And let's see how we can technically work this through. And this is the process of how it works. And I was never called back to this. to this organization. And I think they felt very dissatisfied because it was all about emotions, right? It was all about misgivings and anger. And so, you know, I've learned from that that you need to acknowledge that emotion in the room. You need to play with that. And that is then the art of mediation. You need to be able to read people and acknowledge their feelings as well.

• Speaker #0

  Amazing. So you have to... recently launched a podcast around this topic of of called masterpiece looking at the art of building peace can you tell us a little bit about how that came about and why you're creating this yeah another story sarah so i

• Speaker #1

  came back from so many years being in the field 25 years and i've researched it i worked uh in so many processes as you've said and uh and my desire was always i would I'd like to come back and share these lessons learned in a book. And I would like to write a book. And I had several samples already written over years and years. And I went to see publishers and they told me, listen, nobody's interested about peace. Write about war. Write about conflict. And I think that was quite... painful for me to see and to feel because there's so many of us who do this type of work. And so does this really mean that people don't want to hear or think or write about peace and what makes publishers think that way? And I don't want to give up on this. And that's how I started that podcast called Masterpiece, in which you appeared as well. And this is about how we the art and the science of mastering peace. So some of these insights can be shared.

• Speaker #0

  Thank you, Anche. So we end each of our episodes with what we call a Be the Change moment. So the idea is for you, Anche, to share with our listeners something from your experience that they can apply in their lives today as a means of us bringing our small drops of water to the forest fires of our world today. What would your Be the Change drop be, Anche?

• Speaker #1

  Two small drops. In the end, peace is not something we just do to others. It doesn't just start in a negotiation room. It starts really of how we show up in a conflict. And the second drop is don't just listen what people say, but really listen to why they're saying it. That alone changes your conversation.

• Speaker #0

  Thank you, Antje. Those are two great ways that we can have better conversations, and it really feels like the world needs that today. Thank you so much, Antje, for spending time with us today at the Hummingbird Collective. And remember, the forest is large, and you are not alone in your work, and the world needs more hummingbirds. For our listeners, if you want to listen to the conversations or listen to more episodes, you'll see the links in our show notes. And you can visit our website also to find out more about how you can be the change you can see in the world. And remember to share your drops on social media using hashtag hummingbird collective. Thank you.