Transcription

• Speaker #0

  If I had you two guys walking down a street talking and I just cover it with one camera, that's it. And then with their AI, you could do like a profile shot, you could do a drone shot, and it just generates it from what you've captured on your master.

• Speaker #1

  In one of the commercials I absolutely love, there's this Asian lady, she's going through the hotel, they lip synced her. Like something was off and I was looking at it going, that's why it's grabbed my attention.

• Speaker #0

  Like most car ads these days, you see these cars driving over the bumps in Colorado. I mean, it's all done in a studio and a virtual wall. But yet the background's moving and the reflections are real. It's changing filmmaking. I just can't believe the volume of content that is consumed on YouTube versus even traditional TV now.

• Speaker #2

  What's up, buddy Norm, how you doing, man?

• Speaker #1

  Oh, it's getting close to cigar time.

• Speaker #2

  Close to, I thought it's always cigar time somewhere.

• Speaker #1

  Well, it is. It's always, yeah, yeah, yeah, very good line.

• Speaker #2

  It's always cigar time somewhere.

• Speaker #1

  Oh, you can't see, but yeah, all the cases are over here just waiting to be...

• Speaker #2

  Just waiting, yeah, your fingers, like, too bad you don't have nails like a woman, because you can go do-do-do-do-do-do, do a little finger piano on top of it. But you, you, didn't you go to, if I recall, didn't you go to school for film?

• Speaker #1

  Yep, film and cinematography.

• Speaker #2

  That's what I thought. I thought you did. You ran like a production company or something for a while, right?

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, I got into, I was doing films, training films for General Motors and a bunch of different things. But yeah, I got into it.

• Speaker #2

  What was the one that was in a ring? Oh,

• Speaker #1

  Foxy Boxing.

• Speaker #2

  Foxy Boxing, that's what I know. He did the foxy foxing stuff.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, that was my big production. That was your big production.

• Speaker #2

  Yeah, I mean, I used to have three full-time video editors working for me. You know that. I didn't know you then, I don't think. But we had a whole production studio. This was back in the day before everything now. We had a whole server room with racks and racks of hard drives and stuff to do everything. This was back when you had a 10-minute video. You had to let it encode overnight. It's not like now when you upload it to YouTube and it's like, okay, give us three minutes and it's ready to go in HD. It was like, it was crazy times. But what do you think it is that makes video? And why is the video so important when it comes to marketing?

• Speaker #1

  It's everything. We talk about perceived value all the time. You can either make it or break it. But, uh... I got to tell you something. This is how much of a fossil I am. When I was doing those GM videos and I was working for a company called Petro Films and we were working with laser discs. It looked like a record. It was about 12 inches and it was silver. And yeah, you'd send it out like a record.

• Speaker #2

  Yeah, it's like a big CD. I remember that. I had a laser disc player when I was like... I don't know, 16 or something. 50 a.m. But yeah, so with the power now, and it's evolved. I mean, it used to be you had to see everything on television or in the movies. And now with the internets and the power of what you can do, sometimes AI is a tool that can be used good. Sometimes AI is a tool that can pollute it. But the power of video now, I mean, you just look at TikTok. It's basically video. I mean, all these things. And if you're not doing that right or don't know how to produce properly, I'm not saying that means spend money, but how to produce properly and tell stories, it's a problem. Our guest today, that's what he's been doing for quite some time. I mean, I think he's worked for big companies like Honda and American Airlines and you name it, a lot of Fortune 500 companies are actually producing video and stuff for him. So I think it's going to be an interesting take. And I think he's just now coming around a little bit to some of the AI stuff. figuring that out. So I think it's going to be an interesting one for everybody.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. Let's bring him on.

• Speaker #2

  It's just Stuart Cohen.

• Speaker #1

  There he is. Hey, Stuart.

• Speaker #2

  How are you doing?

• Speaker #1

  Good. Good. I just want to start up something here. So you are a Texas fan and Kevin is an Aggie fan. So who's better? I don't know. Of course. If we're going to have a good conversation, we had...

• Speaker #2

  We got all this one question you got one question you got to ask is what what do you call an Aggie which is my school text saying when they graduate?

• Speaker #1

  Okay, what do they call?

• Speaker #2

  Unemployed. Boss.

• Speaker #1

  Oh, boss.

• Speaker #2

  Okay. Not long. He said the answer for what do you call a longhorn, which is New York to Texas, when they graduate, unemployed. So see,

• Speaker #1

  he knew it.

• Speaker #2

  Well,

• Speaker #0

  who knew we'd have a rivalry right here on this call today.

• Speaker #1

  Pass us the little room. But, you know, I'm over with Stuart. He's from Montreal. I'm from Montreal. We got this bond going.

• Speaker #0

  There you go.

• Speaker #2

  Yeah, and I'm in Austin now, so I'm behind, living behind the orange curtain over here.

• Speaker #0

  Yes, you are. Yes, you are.

• Speaker #2

  Well, Stuart, what, uh, so you've been doing, what, film for quite some time, right?

• Speaker #0

  I, I have. I hate to admit it, but it's, you know, creeping into the, uh, well, it's definitely double digits, so. I mean, I, I went to film school in 94.

• Speaker #2

  So, yeah. I don't know then. You're, you're... Young whippersnapper.

• Speaker #1

  That's nothing.

• Speaker #0

  But yeah, we were still, yay, we were still editing on flatbeds. And, you know, we still needed to keep all your pieces of film. Definitely, I'm happy to say, and I think, granted, if you never had to deal with film, maybe those are the guys that like it now. But I think if you ever dealt with film growing up, you're like, yeah, you guys could have it now.

• Speaker #1

  What you can do now compared to... back then, splicing film together.

• Speaker #0

  And you do it on your phone now.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah.

• Speaker #2

  But then you look at the Odyssey, and that was film. IMAX film. If you look at some of the behind-the-scenes stuff, they were showing, like, huge freaking reels of film. They actually cut it, like, to make the master, like, the old way, the old-school way. And putting it together, I was like, why?

• Speaker #0

  Well, I will say, I think, and that just goes to prove, I mean, a good story, it doesn't matter how you shoot it.

• Speaker #2

  Hey, Norm, I'm sitting here inside Seller Central on Amazon, and I'm trying to figure out if I'm making any money. I know you go to business reports and then campaign manager, but there's a ton of options here. There's like a payment report, there's a cost spreadsheet, and a whole bunch of others. Is there an easier way to do this?

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, it could be really confusing, Kev. So never fear. Data dough is here. And all you have to do is go to Cloud or ChatGPT and just ask it. For example. which you lost money after ads last month. And guess what? You'll get a list.

• Speaker #2

  How do I do this?

• Speaker #1

  All you have to do is go to datadoe.com. That's D-O-E. And you'll get a free course showing you exactly how to do this and a 14-day free trial. And use code NORM50, and you'll get half off your first paid month.

• Speaker #2

  Sweet. Datadoe.com, here I come.

• Speaker #1

  One of the things that... I really, I like looking at different films from around the world, even different commercials. They always have the top commercials from around the world. They're so different. And what I like about a lot of the European films or just different films is they don't always leave you with a happy ending, you know. And you sit there and you go, wow, that just took a huge twist. And I just find with... A lot of the films that happen in North America, it is a formula and you just you know what's going to happen before it happens.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, no, we are we are the happy ending people. I mean, I mean, you know, like here, those are commercial for insurance. You have a car wreck and someone comes and rescues you in Europe. You have a car wreck and you fall off a cliff and it's over.

• Speaker #1

  And how does so when when you're setting up and you're doing commercials? You've got a much shorter time span, but you have to get that message across. So how do you set that up? What is that story? What does that storyboard look like?

• Speaker #0

  Well, it's shorter, obviously. I mean, it's funny because this past weekend I was in Telluride, the Telluride Film Festival, and there are a lot of filmmakers, long form and stuff like that. And having the conversation there with some friends, it's kind of like being a commercial filmmaker, you need to get to the point fast, obviously. And even if you get to the point fast, a lot of times it's not fast enough because now the 60-second spot is the 30-second spot. is the 15 or even a six and you need to get to that story so you learn to somehow combine nuances or combine story arcs into one because you have to get to the end quicker to the extent that sometimes you know now i watch episodic tv or movies and You know, somebody's getting out of the car and they close the door and they walk to the front door and I'm like, come on already, get there. Because we're so used to like having to make that story happen. So I think I think the art of commercial making is that ability to tell a story in a short period of time. And I think I bet there are a lot there are a lot of directors that had been commercial filmmakers that went on to features that have done well. But yet they understand the the benefit of being able to get to a point quickly. And, you know, you guys, I don't know about you, but if I go to a movie that's really dragging, I mean, especially today, I think everybody's attention spans are getting shorter and shorter and shorter. And that's, you know, because of TikTok and Instagram and stuff like that. And you so I think that bodes well for the commercial filmmaker that could get to the point quickly.

• Speaker #1

  Hey, Kev, I don't know about you, but. Have you seen, and there's more and more and more, and it's a pet peeve of mine watching these stupid things, but these bigger companies that are trying to look like they have influencers on, and you know that it's completely polished, horrible influencer, like it's just a terrible commercial trying to leverage influencers. I don't know about you, but they're driving me crazy.

• Speaker #2

  Yeah, no, it's not authentic. You can tell. I mean, when someone uses the product and you know they're a fan of it and it matches, it's good. But a lot of times it's not. But one that sticks out is Chick-fil-A. I mean, they do these little things during football season here in the States where people are sitting on a couch and it's supposed to be a customer. And I think there's a disclaimer that's on the bottom that says actors portraying customers or something like that. Or maybe in some cases it's a real customer. and they're interacting with a a person that's the drive-thru person or something. They're sitting on a couch and talk about how this person was so friendly to them. It's part of their brand and part of their all-shucks, wholesome branding, but it just comes across to me as inauthentic. So what is it, Stuart, that I actually couldn't make? Because all these big, like Norm says, all these big brands now are trying to dumbed down instead of these slick produced commercials and like Hollywood style commercials. A lot of them were like trying to make it look like it was shot on an iPhone or make it look like it was influencer type of just captured stuff. Is that actually working or is that, are we losing some authenticity and losing some of the people when we do that?

• Speaker #0

  Well, I mean, you touched on a couple of things there, Kevin. So like one, the authentic, the authenticity, the realness. I think that really started during COVID when All of a sudden, people were not doing big productions, you know, and somebody did a commercial on their iPhone and it felt real. And, you know, it's just the authenticity really drove viewership and people believed it. And then you have the whole TikTok, you know, and you have the Instagram and people love the authenticity of being there. And it's not forced, it's not fake, it's not scripted, all this stuff, which everything we do, you know, is. you know, scripted and produced and styled. And they're like, no, no, no, I want it real. I want it real. So that has affected, you know, the commercial filmmaking world. And there have been some spots that we've shot on phones and because the client, maybe they're a phone company or they just say they want that authenticity. Now, will it, and I don't know if it's ever going back. I think there's like a informality about the approach today compared to say 10, 15 years ago, even that is really nice. When you look, if you look at a commercial from 2010. It looks very dated. 2015 looks very dated. It's because the approach has been different. Think about the handheld cameras. I mean, not like to a fault shaky, but just, you know, the handheld cameras moving around and it just less staged feeling. And I, you know, and I don't know if that'll ever go back unless it's something super, super stylistic. The other thing you talked about, the influencer deal. I can't get my head around that, honestly, because especially there are influencers like, yeah, you have a Kardashian or something like that. But when you get to people that are maybe they're called micro influencers, people that I know even that have this affiliate program. And then that may be some of the affiliate programs, Norm, that you guys work with as well. And, you know, so like if you gave, you know, say I had a phone and I do a little. TikTok with my phone, but if you go to my store and buy my phone, I'm going to get a piece of it. So it's like, everybody's trying to sell everybody something. And it's an interesting, an interesting turn that our society is taking, you know, like if I need a shirt, I'm going to go into the store and buy a shirt. I'm not going to say, Oh, look, Kevin's wearing that shirt. I'm going to buy that shirt in his store. Cause he's wearing that shirt. So I don't know. It's an interesting, interesting times for sure.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. Kev, when I was, I was just at your place a couple weeks ago. And you do this all the time. You were influenced by TikTok and you gave me that cigar mister, right? But you would never have known it, but it just goes back. There's an influencer. They're getting their piece of the buck representing possibly that brand. And you buy it. Like I've never bought anything on TikTok. I don't do TikTok too much. But yeah, you're

• Speaker #2

  Yeah, I bought something last night. Two o'clock in the morning on TikTok. Yeah. Scrolling through my feed, and here comes a, you know, I love popcorn. It's one of my favorite snacks.

• Speaker #1

  Oh, yeah.

• Speaker #2

  Here comes a popcorn, one of these air popping machines, but the way they had it was big and round. It had the butter melting on the top, and you flipped it over, and the butter, I was just like, okay, I want that. I didn't even look at the price. I think it was $60. I didn't even pay. I just hit buy now, and it's all integrated, so I don't have to enter credit cards. It says hit buy now. Are you sure? you know show your face on your camera and it's done. But to go back to your point, I think, Stuart, on that, these are sales forces. So sometimes the influencers, there is a following. Back, I had a makeup brand at one point, like nine years ago, and there was a guy, he was a gay makeup artist that had a huge following among women for his style and stuff. And he promoted, I had a brush set, and he promoted that brush set, and it just went crazy on Amazon. Because it was him endorsing the brush set and the women that followed him, men and women, whatever followed him, trusted his authority. And so that's part of it. That's more of an influencer than a creator. Right. Affiliate. The creators or the slash affiliates are the people who are basically your sales force. So the game there is if I'm selling a popcorn machine is to get as many. people as possible to actually promote my popcorn machine. So I'm going to send them a free popcorn machine, maybe a few bullet points or a few outlines of it and say, create a video. And then they will go out and there's no such thing as followers really anymore. People have followers, but that doesn't matter. It's, it's, it's traction. So if there's enough people like me that will buy a stupid popcorn machine off of a TikTok thing, then That algorithm is so good. It can find the people. I knew that I love popcorn somehow. Probably my phone's listening to me or something. I haven't looked at pictures of popcorn on TikTok, but it knew somehow that, hey, this is someone interested in it. The more of those they can find and the more different salespeople that can approach it from different styles or different ways. Someone else might have done it, the same video in a whole different way. And then those guys, they get into it and then they get paid. So people put money that the popcorn machine company or whoever owns that, That guy proves that his angle or his approach is working. They will then come put money behind it and blow him up even more. So he makes even more money and they make more money. So that's the game there. It's creating a sales force.

• Speaker #0

  I think it's great. I think it's brilliant. I mean, it's truly brilliant. And back, I got to tell you my story in the first like social media buy, like, and this is because it's pertinent to this conversation. So there was something I don't know, Canada Day was coming up. And I saw a pair of like Converse, you know, high top Converse with the Canadian flag on it. And I'm laying in bed and I'm like, I can't believe I'm going to do this, but I'm going to do, I'm going to buy them. And sure enough. I still have them. They're great. You know, I wear them once a year on Canada Day. But it works. Look, you're absolutely right. If somebody hits you at the right time.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  And as long as we're glued to our phones like we are or any kind of media and it hits you. And there's always somebody that's looking for shoes with a candidate Canadian flag on them, you know, or a popcorn.

• Speaker #2

  And the algorithm knew that you're a candidate for that. Somehow I knew that, you know, from some other actions you've done. and knew to zero in on you and show you that it never showed me that ad um i never saw your shoes with so that's the power now versus commercial tv and the stuff you're doing for american airlines and all these guys is like it's mass audience and you're hoping that a fraction of these two million people that are watching the football game or whatever there's 10 000 over here that that applies to and for these out just the 10 000 that it applies to you're going to see it on social media or 15 000 are going to see it and 5 000 they figure out real you quick this is not the right people and then they narrow it down right that's that's the power there but also on commercial television you talked about it a minute ago that the 30 the 60 seconds become the 30 seconds of crime the 15 become the six i've noticed that a lot of stuff when it's shot and this is from a maybe something brands need to be thinking about i don't know if you notice this too norm that a 30 second commercial i've seen the same commercial they edit they they film it in such a way that it can easily cut to a 15 and a six.

• Speaker #0

  Oh, yeah.

• Speaker #2

  They lift out certain sections. It flows naturally. It's 30. But if you just take this six seconds from the middle or the beginning or whatever, that can be a little bumper on a Hulu or somewhere like that. Yeah,

• Speaker #0

  so sometimes what we'll do, Kevin, is we have, you know, it might be an extra scene or two that, like, okay, on the 15, we're going to replace the ending or on the six, we're going to do this. But, yeah, it's all done. You know, it's all preconceived. It's all, you know, concepted and laid out and storyboard and stuff like that. But to your point, and it's funny, and I thought about this, seeing that we're just coming off a holiday weekend and knowing that I was going to be on your show and looking forward to it. But I'm thinking about even my career and my filmmaking and how there have been some very thoughtful steps that I've had to make in my career, just because I've had it. I've been doing it a while now. um to stay relevant and competitive for the next chapter and and some of those periods have been like just say for instance you know when still photography went digital which is like 2005-ish like when it really really switched and films everyone doesn't know we're still using film we're still using film film will never go digital and i'm like guys trust me it's gonna go digital You know, and they're like, never film has, you know, so great. It's got the depth. It's got this. It's got that. I'm like, trust me, it's going to change. And so we are early adopters to say using reds and, you know, the early digital video cameras. And and sure enough, you know, everything changed. And it allowed us to stay competitive, to be, quote unquote, on the edge of what was going on and to partake in the next chapter of commercial filmmaking. Whereas as film for a long time was out of favor, you know, I know now there's a lot of nostalgia coming back with it. Then another period, you know, after the financial crisis, say when budgets in my world, at least in advertising, really got condensed, they got shrunken down. And I had to make this this decision is like, OK, I've had a really great run of really. big, beefy, juicy, big budget commercials. If I want to play in this next chapter, I need to figure out how to do stuff more efficiently and faster to stay competitive. And again, that became a better chunk of my career. And just this weekend, and this is why it's pertinent to this conversation and what we're talking about, I'm thinking about what resonates with people. and how these short form videos, the social videos, the vertical videos, how you need to tell the story even just differently. You know, it's not only shorter, but it's more, you know, some of the edits. If you look at the edits on spots now, you know, everyone's using like really whiz bangy edits. But you're still telling a story. The good stuff is still telling a story. You're just going to do it a little differently. And so I made a conscious decision this weekend. And I didn't mean to bring it up on this show, but it's like, okay, how is my editing style? Like the editors I work with, how does that need to evolve? Like today to stay relevant tomorrow, you know?

• Speaker #2

  Is that more of a fast-paced editing or more of a graphical on the swipe? I think more of a hook.

• Speaker #0

  I think, yeah. I mean, I think we've come, we went, you know, there's been periods of fast and slow, then longer, then single take. But I think the fast is really, with some crazy camera moves, is really becoming very popular. It is popular. It's not becoming. And I've seen a lot of commercials that guys have gotten that we. bit on that we didn't get that. And it's all, um, really a lot in the camera, the way the camera moves now and the way it's edited, still telling the same story, but you know, maybe the camera's doing a three 60 on the way into the person's face, or maybe it's flipping upside down. There's just a lot of different things. And so I think it's, what's right for the spot. And And everyone's going to be trying, everyone is trying a lot of different things today. But I still believe back to what our first thing we talked about is, if you could wrap a story around it, you're going to be successful. Because if not, it's just going to be fluff. Like in six months, it's just going to be some technical, you know, somebody just messing around.

• Speaker #1

  You know, one of the commercials I absolutely love are companies. I don't even know who the production company is. What is crazy is Travelocity commercials. So I watch those commercials and they've lured me in. So the first one where the two guys are sitting down and the other guy just doesn't buy Travelocity, pays more. The two guys, they've, throughout the two years that it's been running, the one guy changes once in a while. Then the other guy changes. Then the pricing. that they're talking about, oh, you could get it for $150. On another commercial, it's, oh, you can get it for $250. On another one, it's, oh, this is $355. So you're watching. And what they did just recently is the second guy, they did a voiceover with a different guy's voice. So it's always changing up. And then there's the newer one. This came out a few months ago, where there's this Asian lady. She's just in the club. she's going through the hotel and you're looking in the background to see if there are other people from the other commercials that they have. They always change them and, you know, just get your curiosity up. But they lip synced her. They made her voice just that much, like something was off and I was looking at it going, that's why it's grabbed my attention. She's just off by a little bit.

• Speaker #0

  I'm going to go watch it right after this. I'll go watch it.

• Speaker #1

  Watch all of the Travelocity commercials are done. They're brilliant. They're subtle. You just don't know what's happening. And every one of the actors go into the next commercial at some point, and they'll run it. It'll look like it's the same commercial 20 times. and then all of a sudden What's this guy doing in it? It's so cool.

• Speaker #2

  I thought he was going to say it's because the child lost a gnome is in there. And there are,

• Speaker #1

  you know what? There was one here.

• Speaker #2

  I thought he looks like the gnome, you know? Yeah.

• Speaker #1

  I'm the norm.

• Speaker #0

  Perform the gnome. But you know, one of those things, Norm, is like, you know, what you're saying is it's had legs. The campaign's had legs. And one of the things I, I, I see a lot and I talk to sometimes is the fact that These brands that stick to their whatever their brand ethos is over a longer term seem to be the ones that become more memorable. Think of the insurance, the flow or the, you know, that kind of stuff.

• Speaker #2

  Yep. State Farm.

• Speaker #0

  State Farm. Oh, the insurance has done good. The Emu.

• Speaker #2

  Budweiser and Jaguar, you know, they stay to their... I'm just kidding. They're the ones that messed it all up. That's that. That's actually how branding can go totally wrong too. It's crazy. So what are you seeing? Is there a difference in creating video for television? I mean, now even YouTube, they say something like 60% of all YouTube is watched on a television 75 inches or bigger. So, I mean, is there a difference when you're creating for the big screen or the television screen versus the phone? Or is it all blended together now?

• Speaker #0

  I mean, they've always said, you know, the phones, the wide shots don't work as well on phones, you know, so you're be a little tighter. And a lot of times what we do is, you know, we'll shoot in 16 by nine and then you'll protect for the vertical. So in essence, it becomes bigger. And if you're still shooting on real cameras now, like, you know, so you're shooting a 6K or an 8K file. So you can zoom in a lot for the for the mobile versions. But you know, when you think about it, if you're going to be playing on a 75 inch TV, I mean, you could go pretty cinematic. I just can't believe the volume of content that is consumed on YouTube versus even traditional TV now. You know, it's amazing. It's really amazing.

• Speaker #1

  Kevin, we went to Vegas when we've been to the Sphere a few times, and it was amazing to hear. I think it was you that told me that they shoot it at 16K.

• Speaker #2

  Yeah, I think it was. Yeah, it's something like it's shot at 16 or 30. It's way up there. I forget. Yeah, it's not the typical 8k that like a Is the red camera still even around?

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

• Speaker #2

  Okay. I got I have been out I know when it first came out because we almost bought one but oh no,

• Speaker #0

  they've all they've all changed But yeah 8k is today, you know, which I'm knowing the big but yet if you think about that the sphere I mean, I guess you got a shooting 270 degrees, right? So it's a gotta be a huge file.

• Speaker #2

  Yeah Yeah, just processing that file has got to be, like, crazy.

• Speaker #0

  Okay, so what was your favorite show there that you guys saw?

• Speaker #1

  Movie? Like, I like The Dead. So when we went to see The Dead, Eagles were good. But that original movie. Wizard of Oz? Wizard of Oz was fantastic. Like, everything's been fantastic. But that original one we went to.

• Speaker #2

  Oh, the house movie, like the standard when there's no abuse going on.

• Speaker #1

  That was.

• Speaker #2

  fantastic that was probably the you know the best use of the technology because it's it's like a fly around the world or something right no it's like it's like showing on you go around the world from african safari to indian celebration throwing paint on each other's mist the barometric uh

• Speaker #1

  the barometric pressure changes it's it's oh that's cool that's cool yeah yeah you know there's a mini sphere here in austin i did not know that

• Speaker #2

  Actually, it's out by the airport. It's not big like that. It's miniatures made for like, it's like one twelfth the size or something. But they just opened recently.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, that's really cool.

• Speaker #2

  For like concerts and stuff like that. I have not been to it, so I haven't checked it out. Yeah. And they're opening one. They were supposed to open one in London, but they got canceled. And the next one's in the UAE, I think in Abu Dhabi.

• Speaker #0

  Yes.

• Speaker #2

  They're putting one up.

• Speaker #0

  Well, I only saw, I went to the original, I saw the U2 show there.

• Speaker #2

  Oh, yeah.

• Speaker #0

  And it was cool, but yet I knew right then, back to the whole conversation we've had about technology, is that, yeah, this is cool, but once people really figure out how to exploit this technology, they're going to be able to do some truly amazing things with it.

• Speaker #2

  Hey, Norm, I've got a quick question for you. I'm trying to manage all my affiliate and creator programs from Amazon, from Shopify, from Walmart, but it's just a freaking mess. I mean, I've got reporting coming from here and there's all these different Slack messages. Do you know if there's like a unified dashboard where I can do this all in one place?

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, absolutely. And you're right. It is a mess. A lot of brands are complaining about that, but there is a place that has a solution. It's called Levanta and they let brands or crew partners. track performance, manage payouts, send product samples, and even run creator programs across every major marketplace all in one place. And guess what? Brands can spend less time on tools and more time making profit.

• Speaker #2

  Is that the one that you sent me a link for, like a 10% off coupon, their gold or enterprise plan a few days ago?

• Speaker #1

  You got it.

• Speaker #2

  Oh, cool, man. I think I've got that link here. Was it levanta.io slash misfits?

• Speaker #1

  Yep, you got it.

• Speaker #2

  L-E-V-A-N-T-A dot I-O forward slash misfits. Awesome. I'm going to go hit them up right now and get that 10% off. Perfect, me too. So what, are you using any kind of AI in anything that you do? Are you still ER? Soldier. Okay.

• Speaker #0

  Listen, I'm... I'm willing to go with whatever tools are best. So we just finished a commercial that is for Christmas. It's going to come out this Christmas. And the last scene in it was, you know, like a drone shot pulling out of a neighborhood. And you see a house, you know, it's dusk and the lights are on in the house and it's snowing and yada, You know, neighborhood and Christmas time. Thank you. You know, we looked for stock footage of it and we couldn't find anything we really liked and we created it. And I got to tell you, I mean, I'm a believer like it, it works and, and it works if you use it in the right place, it really works. I mean, it's great. It's, it's, it's where things are going. And, you know, I still feel like it's tough with people and to nuance and emotion and stuff like that. But there are certain things that you're just going to be able to do in AI and it's just going to reduce the production costs. And it may be even better, you know. But here, check this out. So I was at a conference in Spain a couple of months ago and there was this software company that are making AI tools for the movie industry. And they're French and they have a place in L.A. But what they were showing is what they want is people to build it into your storyboards. So say, you know, if I had you two guys walking down the street talking and I just cover it with one camera, that's it. And then with their A.I., you could do like a profile shot. You could do a drone shot. And it just generates it from what you've captured on your master. So what they're saying is we're not trying to. replace filmmaking. We're trying to make it more efficient. So think about that scene of you guys walking down the street instead of having to cover it three or four different ways, we're covering it once and, and it'll just, it'll hopefully in time be more efficient, more cost-effective. Um, it's not good for crews for sure, but it's really good for content creators movie, you know, because you could tell the story quicker. And with more coverage and again, going back to the quick cuts, you could then decide even after the fact, it's like, no, Give me another cut. Give me the other person's POV. Give me this. Give me that. So you'll be able to create more shots out of one master. So I think that's going to revolutionize.

• Speaker #2

  It could be me and Norm walking just in a studio, not on a street. And it can combine that with a whole AI generated street scene. Because like you said, that... That's easier to do without the people in it and more realistic. And you put the model of the real people and it's modeled on those real people, not just AI generated.

• Speaker #0

  Oh, yeah.

• Speaker #2

  It can be super powerful.

• Speaker #0

  Even if you think about if you think about these virtual walls. Yeah. Well, the virtual walls are similar and they're everywhere now. And there are backplates and you create in the studio like your mid ground and your talent. Like most car ads these days, you see these cars driving over the bumps in Colorado. I mean, it's all done in a studio on a virtual wall. You know, they have these rigs for the cars and you have your camera, but yet the background is moving and the reflections are real. Everything's real. And it's this change in filmmaking. And the first time I saw it, this friend showed me this video they had done, the music video, and... They were saying how cool it was, you know, and I'm looking at it. And so this music video, this person's playing whatever they're in. They're on the Brooklyn Bridge. They're by the Eiffel Tower. They're, you know, they're here. They're there. And they said, yeah, we shot it all in one day. And I couldn't tell the difference. I could not tell the difference. It wasn't shot on location. So that's amazing.

• Speaker #2

  So when you're doing stuff for like American Airlines, what kind of stuff is that? Is that? Is that advertising for American Airlines or is that their in-cabin safety? Yeah,

• Speaker #0

  no, it's advertising.

• Speaker #2

  Okay.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, and it's usually like they do a lot of different verticals like for different types of flyers, you know, which might show on their website. It might show in their it might have links in their emails. It might just, you know, who knows? There's so many different verticals that these Fortune 500 companies have these days. There's a lot of times we never even see what we shoot.

• Speaker #1

  I want to go back to the editing, to the AI for a second. And a film really comes together in the editing. Have you seen, it's got to exist probably, but the editing used to be just methodical. It was arduous. It was just, you know, took up a ton of time. Is there AI out there that you could just talk and have it edit the scenes? Oh, just trim this by X. Oh, have it where they're fading out for whatever and just talk to it rather than having to create something by hand.

• Speaker #0

  Norm, I hope that's coming because I really do hope that's coming and I'm sure it's coming.

• Speaker #1

  Wouldn't that be something?

• Speaker #0

  It will be something and it will happen. And look, if you think about these. Just think about these apps they have, you know, like CapCut or something like that, which it's throwing edits together for you already. I don't know how it's created. It's just algorithmically building these edits. All it needs is to be able to take instruction from a person, you know, extend this scene, do this, do that. So I think it's going to come. I mean, again, will it ever be on the high end stuff? Maybe, maybe not. But Yeah. The one thing I always say about all these tools is it's put the professional level tools in the hands of everybody, you know,

• Speaker #2

  and the tools, though, are one thing and great tools, but in the hands of the wrong person, it's the person directing it, the person that has the creative that actually can you can give the same tools, all three of us, you're going to get different results.

• Speaker #0

  It's absolutely.

• Speaker #2

  So it's no question. It's the creator. It's the same when we talk about this in email marketing and other things. It's the creator that actually knows how to use the tools or the AI that makes the difference. And just like you guys just said, the editor, I'm a big fan of, like, the editor is a deal breaker for me. I have a guy that shoots my events. I do events. Like, we just did one in Austin. And a guy came and covered it for four days, shooting all the B-roll and testimonials and everything. you his price was like four grand to do that for four days cheap price you know um my to edit a seven minute uh video of that cost me 2200 bucks not from him he i take his footage he's not a bad editor he's okay but i have a guy in columbia that can just crush it on it and he's like 100 bucks an hour and he never 2200 is still cheap still cheap and but the quality that i get back Like it's, and I've been. doing this for 20 something years with editors and stuff, I know when it's good editing and good storytelling and the way he pieces it together and with all the little effects like you were talking about earlier, it's a damn good video that my other guy could not have done no matter what tools he has because he doesn't know how to direct it right. Sure. I think that's where the power of the tools is. I don't know if you agree or not, but where it's in the director and it's not in the tools. 100%.

• Speaker #0

  100% there's no question but even if you think about that 10 years ago you would have had to spend a minimum of $10,000 to get that edit so you have a guy now so the cost of entry has dropped so low for everything so somebody with a desire and and and a gift can really excel without what we came up with needy in terms of you know you look at photography and it's like this little thing is Better than our cameras were 20 years ago, you know, and everyone's got a who is it? Was it Coppola said everyone's got a movie in them, you know, you know, and all it takes is a vision. And the thing is, the tools are at our disposal. And that's what I'm saying is like it's not everybody can tell a story. You're absolutely right. But at the same time, it's exciting because you could tap. Different resources for different things. And like what you're saying is you found this guy and for $2,200, you knocked out a great video. I mean, that's a win I would consider. You know,

• Speaker #2

  a lot of people would say that you spent $2,200. I told that to my trainer. He hired the same guy to do a video for him for his training studio. And he had it. the guy edited it and he i think he spent a total like 400 bucks total and i saw i spent 2200 just for the editing and he's like i can't afford that that's true that's crazy um i tell the tiktok world and cap cut and everything is like why would i spend 22 you're crazy to spend 2200 i could do this for 50 bucks or for free um

• Speaker #0

  but yeah you can but you see what you get so but on that note yes you are absolutely correct and i agree 100 percent But if you're coming from, say, a world, say, where I came from, where a light shoot day would cost $50,000.

• Speaker #2

  Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  You know, and all of a sudden you're saying you're getting something for $2,200. So you think about the jobs and the gear and, you know, it's just a different world. It's a condensed world. And I think the media landscape has really condensed like that. And again, I'm not saying it's good or bad. I think it's great because it's accessible to everybody. I think it's bad for people that had made a lot of money in that world because definitely the margins are way skinnier than they used to be. But then does the cream still rise to the top? If you're a good storyteller, I don't care what tools you're using, you're still going to have a good career, you know?

• Speaker #2

  So where is it going with the social? What are you seeing? With everybody's, like you said, everybody's a star now. Every 13-year-old wants to be a TikTok star. And every 15-year-old thinks they can be the next Mr. Beast and edit these cool videos and stuff. Where are we going? Are we going to a land of a million directors?

• Speaker #0

  Kevin, you know, I don't know.

• Speaker #2

  I don't like it.

• Speaker #0

  Because I read these articles, you know, and it's like, you know, some 17-year-old with 10 million people following him on YouTube. and And I look at the videos and to see who it is, and I'm like, are you kidding me? You know, but it's a planet with 8 billion people and you just need to find your audience, right? You know,

• Speaker #1

  I'm wondering, and I always had a bit of push and pull depending on the brand. So we worked with, and I won't say the name of the company, but this car company drove me absolutely nuts. It wasn't General Motors, but it was a finer. car company that between shooting so you have the lighting everything set up ready for the shot somebody's directing it and then you'd have either the brand manager or a marketer or somebody from the sales team come down and everybody had you know their voice how does that affect you when you're on a set oh man too many chiefs too many chiefs yeah

• Speaker #0

  Yep. That's all I'll say. So we've done commercials. We've done commercials that we've hired crews that work on film, you know, on cinematic films to work on my sets. And we've had an experience like that where, you know, you're getting talked to by their producer, their brand manager, that whole story. And this gaffer comes up to me is like, why are they telling you what to do? You know, isn't it the director? I mean, it's your your thing. Like, yeah, but not in commercial filmmaking. I mean, you need to be a you need to be a team player. And and it and that's the art, honestly, of commercial filmmaking is having the vision, knowing what the story you're trying to tell is and then on set being very inclusive of everybody and trying to at least attempt to. to fulfill everybody's vision. And then a lot of times it comes down to the editor that says, you know what? Yeah, that does work best. Or this one works best, you know, to show them options. And everyone in the commercial world wants to have a say. And I think it's, it's, that's okay. That's our world. And if you, you got to play the game, if you want to succeed and, and I've, I've become pretty adept at doing it. And I got to tell you, sometimes The ideas that come from, you know, Video Village are amazing. So, you know, you got to go with it, you know.

• Speaker #2

  What do you do to get the best out of your talent? I mean, you're working with talent or sometimes maybe animals or whatever, but what do you do to actually, how does a director actually get the best from the talent?

• Speaker #0

  Well, that to me is really the differentiator.

• Speaker #2

  and relationships,

• Speaker #0

  not animals. It's more about the human thing. And one thing about, you know, people ask what I do and it's like, I shoot anything with people in it. And I love people. I love people's stories. I love all walks of life. You could be man on the street, blue collar, talent, celebrity. I don't care. And, and I think that is my gift that I bring to it because there are a lot of people that could flip on a camera. Um, and I think. You know, learning to work with talent of all, with people, is really the thing that you need to learn how to do. And I went to, in film school, there was a class called Acting for Directors. And looking back, whatever it is, 25 years ago now, I mean, it might have been the thing that a light bulb went off in my head. Because, you know, when you're on the other side of the camera and no one's giving you direction. or it's really quiet, it's a weird, lonely place, you know? So it's really up to that director to engage you in the story and engage you in the process. And sometimes, you know, I mean, if somebody comes up with a great idea, let's try it, let's go. You know, again, you never know where those ideas are coming from. But I think interacting with people... To me, it's my gift. That's what I love to do, and I think that's why I've had a good long run in this industry.

• Speaker #2

  So a good director is not like a good surgeon. A good surgeon just shows up to do the operation and leaves and hardly ever talks to the person. But a good director actually has a relationship. It's going into the green room. It's establishing something to have some sort of connection or bond. So you can get the trust and the comfort and then get them to emote and get that emotion that you want.

• Speaker #0

  That's correct. And even comparing it to the surgeon, say you're doing, you know, a food filmmaker who does pours. You know, that's a very technical thing. So that's a very, this is their deal. They really love the technical aspect of it, where I really love the human aspect of it.

• Speaker #1

  I want to go back to the humans and animals. Kevin, you relate more to goats, don't you?

• Speaker #2

  I don't relate to tigers. I mean, the last time I filmed anything in Dallas where goats saw them is we had a tiger model on a set. So I'm...

• Speaker #0

  This is true.

• Speaker #2

  It's a true story.

• Speaker #0

  I believe it. I believe it. That's a whole other game, too. That's when you hire a really good trainer.

• Speaker #2

  We did have a good trainer and drug him across the floor with her in its mouth. Yeah, that's a story for another time.

• Speaker #0

  Exactly. Yeah, that sounds good, though.

• Speaker #2

  But still my favorite, you know what I really miss? You're talking about the old days before digital, before the red cameras and stuff. We used to have to get our beta tapes, and we did HD. I did HD for Mark Cuban right when HDNet first started.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah.

• Speaker #2

  2003, 2004, something around there. We were doing some content for him. because he needed just filler time we had pretty girls in bikinis on a beach so we were shooting hd and trying to figure out this whole process to bring in a crew like 30 grand to bring in this freaking hd crew to extras or shoot anyway we would order our tapes and from this place in pennsylvania have them shipped down to austin and i always remember every time it you know it's two thousand dollars worth of uh empty cassettes to film on but there's always two packs of m&ms in in there. Two-packs are like these little like a... um m&ms like you get it at halloween in a little small yeah and i didn't care about the tapes i just cared about the m&m so when they came in i'll be like hey who got the m&ms give me the m&ms but that's my that's funny vivid memory of the old days of before digital of getting those tapes it's i tie that to m&ms for some reason yeah that's why i always have m&ms under my pillow they make friends m&ms make friends norm they do they do

• Speaker #0

  The casting is another thing I really love because that's what's going to make or break it. And I think there are a lot of great tips I've gotten from actors during casting sessions for a commercial. Like, let them do their own read. How would you do it? Well, this is how I would do it. You know, so a lot of people, a lot of directors don't go to castings. And they might just, you know, they'll be present at the callbacks. And I would love to sit in a casting because, you know, you see 100 people do the same thing. You start to take notice. And I think that's actually probably helped me become a better director as well, because, you know, you see how people are playing out the script.

• Speaker #2

  So you think do you think this is going to stay around or people are spending $50,000 a day for shoots and all this? Or is it going to have a direction of. Let's do this on the cheap and AI can fill in the gaps. And if we got to do it, OK, we'll do one day instead of seven days or whatever and fill in the rest. Where's this all going?

• Speaker #0

  You want to hear my wish or the reality?

• Speaker #2

  Oh, both.

• Speaker #0

  Well, we're not going backwards. We know that. And to my point of what I said earlier about learning how to do things more efficiently and cost effectively and so on and so forth. I think that'll continue. I think AI is going to be a big thing, I think, and you can't be afraid of it. I think it's a great tool. And I think we use it, if we use it as such, it will be a great tool. I think the storytelling, what we're going to be able to do, you know, it's wheels off if you think about it. I mean, you can tell any story you want now. And it doesn't matter where it is, you know, used to be, oh, this would look great, you know, on the Charles Bridge in Prague. Well, now you can do it, you know, and it's not even a big lift. So I think we're going to see some really interesting things. I think people are going to take some of this new technology and do they're going to wow us. I mean, there might be a 17 year old or kids coming at a film school that just approach things totally differently than we do. I do hope I think I think the experience hopefully will. Help propel me for the rest of my career because I'm a very big proponent of using new technology. So there's something about if you have the old and the new, hopefully that makes you more valuable and more of a weapon. But I think, yeah, I think it's wheels off. I think I think we're going to see a bunch of great stuff.

• Speaker #3

  Hey, Kevin King and Norm Farrar here. If you've been enjoying this episode of Marketing Misfits, thanks for listening this far. Continue listening. We've got some more valuable stuff coming up. Be sure to hit that subscribe button if you're listening to this on your favorite podcast player. Or if you're watching this on YouTube or Spotify, make sure you subscribe to our channel because you don't want to miss a single episode of the Marketing Misfits. Have you subscribed yet, Norm?

• Speaker #1

  Well, this is an old guy alert. Should I subscribe to my own podcast?

• Speaker #3

  Yeah, but what if you forget to show up one time? It's just me on here. You're not going to know what I say.

• Speaker #1

  I'll buy you a beard and you can sit in my chair too. And we'll just, you can go back and forth with one another. Yikes. But that being said, don't forget to subscribe, share it. Oh, and if you really like this content, somewhere up there, there's a banner. Click on it and you'll go to another episode of the Marketing Misfits. make sure you don't miss a single episode because you don't want to be like norm oh i'm wondering and i've seen this uh over the last few months but actresses actors of being digitally enhanced or just being digital and i wonder where that's going to lead so like i i saw this one person and i just saw a glimpse of it But this lady who's going to be in a film, does she have an agent? Where is this all going to go?

• Speaker #0

  That one's crazy, right? But I watched, hey, I watched your podcast with the woman from, was it Savannah.ai?

• Speaker #1

  Yes, yeah.

• Speaker #0

  And I'm like, I know a lot of people that are not going to be working anymore. And again. Hats off to them, you know, they created a technology. It's good. It works. I mean, you know, and back to what you were just saying, Norm, about the AI, like people, you know, that whole actor strike a couple of years ago was about not using AI. And then we were doing a commercial with a pro athlete, like right after the strike. And the agency said, no, now we need to get him just moving his mouth for the AI version. And I'm like, whoa. And he's a SAG member. And I said to him, weren't you guys just on strike for this? Like, is this legit? And he's like, dude, if they could do it, if they could hire me again and just pay me and I don't have to be here, why wouldn't I do it? And I'm like, got a point. So. I don't know where it's all going. I mean, all I know is every little bit of technology, any new invention, anything someone comes up with will be used. And some will stick and some will not.

• Speaker #2

  Yeah, I did that back in the spring. I flew up to Maryland to a studio and shot for a full day, just me creating an AI version of myself, like 17 different outfit changes, standing, walking, sitting, a bunch of being in it. So now that I have that. And there's software tools where I can script it. So it has all my mannerisms and all my ahs and ums and twitches and what.

• Speaker #0

  Oh, you got to send me, you got to send me a link to where you went.

• Speaker #2

  And so they charged like 15 grand to do that. And I did that. And so now I can pump out content if I want to, of me talking. You know, I can just write it perfectly or have AI or whatever help me write it. And then it puts in my voice with 11 labs and just, it looks pretty good. Um, it doesn't.

• Speaker #0

  So Norm, Norm, is this Kevin? Is this the real Kevin here?

• Speaker #1

  I don't think so. Kevin usually has hair. All right, guys, we are at the top of the hour. This has been great.

• Speaker #2

  This has been fun. This has been great. Stuart, if people want to learn more about you or follow you or anything, what's the best way for them to do that?

• Speaker #0

  A lot of different ways. One, LinkedIn, you could just go on there. It's Stuart Cohen. Pretty easy website company website is SC pictures and my email Stuart at Stuart Cohen dot com. So I'm pretty easy to find. All right. Okay. You're almost off the hook. So we have one question we always ask our misfits. Do they know a misfit?

• Speaker #1

  I actually do. I've been thinking about it. I do. Do you want the name here?

• Speaker #0

  Absolutely.

• Speaker #1

  There is a guy in Dallas, Texas. His name is Brian Linder, who is in work for years and years and years at the Richards Group or TRG now. And then went to Lerma, which is another agency that was a spinoff of TRG. And now started his own deal. And he's doing it remotely from Taos, New Mexico. Brilliant thinker. And I think he'd be a great addition.

• Speaker #0

  Fantastic. Awesome. Well, looking forward to that. All right, sir. Well, thank you so much for being on the podcast today. You were awesome.

• Speaker #1

  I appreciate it. Well, thank you guys. It was really fun. Cool. All right. Now, unfortunately, we don't want to listen to Stuart.

• Speaker #2

  and now i've got to remove you okay all right see you steward see you here you go always like memories of the past like i don't know how many lives each of me and you have lived but quite a few we gotta somehow we've got to fit in that tiger story somewhere yeah because that is crazy i told that in another podcast though didn't i I think it's in one of the other episodes. You might want to go to it. Do an LLM search. You can go to BillionDollarSellers.media because all the Misfits podcasts are indexed there. BillionDollarSellers.media. Type in the keyword Tiger Attack or Tiger in Dallas or something along those words. Or go to BeatItMyOracle. It's another place you could do that. TheEcomOracle.ai. and type that in it'll probably pull up the episode of marketing misfits where we we talked about that um i think we did or maybe i'm i'm you know maybe i'm hallucinating because i'm a a a a a a a i um so i'm but yeah that if not we can always tell it again uh on another episode all right here we go stories speaking of stories you've got tons of stories too And you told some good stories in some of the past episodes. If someone wanted to go and find Norm stories or Kevin Tiger stories, how would they do that?

• Speaker #0

  Well, you know, if they wanted to have the long version, they go to YouTube and it's Marketing Misfits Podcast. If you don't have time for that, you can always go to YouTube and go Marketing Misfits Clips. And these are the clips that are under three minutes. And there's just a ton of them. We can also, or not how we can, we also have a channel on TikTok and it's Marketing Misfits.

• Speaker #2

  That's the TalkTickers, right?

• Speaker #0

  That's the TalkTickers. Yeah, we were talking about that today.

• Speaker #2

  The TalkTickers. We also have a newsletter. So if you actually don't have time to listen to the whole podcast, you can go to Misfits.News. And every Wednesday, the podcast comes out every Tuesday. And we've been doing this every single Tuesday for... I think it's like 150 Tuesdays in a row almost now. Something like that. Something like that. And then every Wednesday, starting back in March, we have a newsletter, a written newsletter that comes out. So you can get that. It's totally free, misfit.news. Great to skim and look at, reminder of some of the good tips and strategies that our guests have mentioned. So check that out as well.

• Speaker #0

  You know what? We haven't, today we haven't, we've recorded a few podcasts today, but we never mentioned this. And this is exciting. Now we've got this. digital game that we're doing live and it's called Misfits Marketing Mayhem. And it is a rumba in an octagon with cigars spinning around. Anybody who's joining live has a chance to win all sorts of prizes. Last time it was a $4,000 prize at the end of it, which was pretty damn good, but we will be posting it live. You'll get emails from us. But if you want to join us, it is a blast. And you get a chance to win some money.

• Speaker #2

  Yep. Check that out as well. You can find more information on that on our socials. Or if you're on our email list, you'll get notified of that as well.

• Speaker #0

  All right.

• Speaker #2

  I guess, Norm, I guess I'll see you again next week, huh?

• Speaker #0

  You definitely will. All right, sir.

• Speaker #2

  Peace out.

• Speaker #0

  See you later. Bye.