The REAL Reason Your Emails Go To Junk | The Marketing Misfits

Description

If you are generating millions of dollars a year on Amazon but ignoring your email list, you are likely leaving 30% to 40% of your gross revenue on the table.

In this episode of Marketing Misfits, hosts Norm Farrar and Kevin King break down the exact strategies top sellers use to turn email into an absolute cash-printing machine. They expose why focusing on "Open Rates" is a massive mistake (thanks to Apple's privacy updates), why "pretty" HTML emails hurt deliverability, and how using link shorteners like Bitly will get you instantly blocked by spam filters.

DataDoe connects all your Amazon data, Seller Central, Vendor Central and Amazon Ads plus the product costs you upload, to Claude, ChatGPT, Gemini, Grok or any other AI tool that supports MCP. You ask about your business in plain English and get answers from your own numbers. Then you act on it: Claude can change prices, edit or create listings and manage your PPC, and each change waits for your approval first.

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📌 Main Topics Covered In This Episode

The Biggest Marketing Mistake: Why business owners let their personal dislike of "spam" stop them from making millions of dollars through legitimate email marketing.

The Legal Truth About Cold Email: Why you actually can email customers in the United States without an explicit opt-in (Opt-Out vs. Opt-In laws).

The "Open Rate" Trap: Why Apple Mail and corporate security bots have completely ruined open rates as a reliable metric, and what you should be tracking instead.

The 5 Pillars of Email Success: How to master Deliverability, Inboxing, Opens, Reads, and Clicks to maximize your conversion rates.

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Transcription

Speaker #0
There's one fundamental thing that goes back to the beginning of the internet that most people are overlooking and that's email. You've seen the power of what email can do, right?
Speaker #1
Absolutely, the power of email. Now the problem, it's not sexy enough. It's not that new shiny squirrel.
Speaker #0
It should add 30 to 40% to your gross. So if you're doing $10 million a year right now on Amazon, you're leaving several million dollars on the table.
Speaker #1
We actually did a lot of email marketing for Microsoft back in the day.
Speaker #0
A lot of people don't know how to design emails. Everybody thinks that HTML, pretty emails, is the way to go. It actually hurts your deliverability. It's better to do text. Open rates is a bad metric to look at. You do want to look at it because it is an indicator, but it's the wrong KPI. So we did a lot for celebrities, athletes, sports, cities. You should never put a bit.ly link or link shortener in an email. They just block it. Careful. How's life up in the great... It's not white north yet, is it? But soon it'll be white north, right?
Speaker #1
Take the knife out of my back. Yes, and it's getting cooler. I gotta put a bloody sweater on to go and have a cigar.
Speaker #0
It's... We're recording this... At the time we're recording this, it's early fall, and you have to put on a sweater? I have to, like, take a towel to wipe the sweat off of me when I go for a cigar. I'm gonna have a fan, an existing fan that's blowing it. You know, when last time you were here, we were sitting out there in July heat in Texas, and I bought those little fans that blow unbearable,
Speaker #1
unbearable heat. But I got 100, and my, I stayed at your place, and the air conditioning was, it was like 107 degrees. You had me in your room, and then we went, you had marketing masters going on. Yeah, yeah, that's clear, that's clear. But you had that event going on. And you gave me a room. This is the Gatsby Mansion and this is Market Masters. And so, hey, Norm, you want to stay at the mansion? Sure. That's great. Oh, OK. Take the room. Third floor, 107 and the air conditioning goes out. Yeah, that was hot.
Speaker #0
That happened at night or during the day?
Speaker #1
At night. Well, it happened at night or during the day when I first got there. The blinds were off, so now you're getting the sun coming in. Then, the air conditioning went out for the second night, so it was just horrible. But, the next night, we figured it out, the air conditioning's turned on, room's nice and cool. Wake up, I go, what the? I go out, I crank it down, and it's at 74 or something. I turn it down, I wake up again, it's like, what the hell? Somebody cranked it up to 74 again, and it was a battle between me and whoever that was.
Speaker #0
It's probably a woman. Oh, I think I know who it was. A skinny woman or something.
Speaker #1
I think I know who it was.
Speaker #0
Yeah, that's your initiation to Texas. Welcome. I'll take that any day over 27 feet of snow. Minus 44. 107 minus 44 in the shit minus 44 in the sun we would say it's 107 in the shade you flip it for you it's minus 44 in the sun but man speaking of minus 44 and and and flipping it you know there's a lot of people that are are not taking advantage of something they should be taking advantage of leaving a lot of money on the table when it comes to their marketing. We talk to a lot of people here on the podcast and a lot of different marketers, people doing funnels, people doing Facebook ads, people doing press releases and PR and people doing all kinds of referrals and licensing and all this kind of different stuff. But there's one fundamental thing that goes back to the beginning of the internet that most people are overlooking and that's email. And I don't get it. I mean, you've seen this where you get your... You had your newsletter and you guys do stuff and email with Lunch with Norm and all that. You've seen the power of what email can do, right?
Speaker #1
Absolutely. And you know what? Before I even answer that, I was wondering how you were going to do that segue.
Speaker #0
You always wonder about my segue.
Speaker #1
Yeah, it's like, all right, all right, he's turning it. But yeah, absolutely. The power of email. Now the problem at most people, well, I think a lot of entrepreneurs, it's not sexy enough. It's not that new shiny squirrel.
Speaker #0
It's not sexy enough. And then a lot of people, some people are annoyed by email. You know, we talked to a guy with our agency, Dragonfish. And the guy, he saw one of our webinars and he was like, this looks great. I'm all in for it. And he gets on the call with us. He was pretty much sold, just had a few questions. He's like, but I got to take this to the boss. And the boss hates email. He hates getting spam. He hates these. He wants his email to only be from his friends and business people and nothing else in there. And so he has that mentality because he doesn't like it that then he shouldn't do it for anybody else. And then what about the other lady we talked to? There's another lady who was on our webinar. She loved it. She was like the, I don't know, I guess, I don't know exactly her position, but something in the marketing department. But there's somebody evidently above her, a little bit more senior woman that was above her that came in on the call and basically fought us on everything. Like they had a list of 100,000 people. Remember this one, Norm? They had a list of like 100,000 people. How do I? And they were like. We're like, well, that's great. You're perfect for what we can help you. And they're like, no, we only email 30,000 of them. We're like, why? Well, it's illegal. And I'm like, what do you mean it's illegal? It's like, well, they didn't opt in. They didn't give us permission. And I'm like, well, they don't you don't need to give you permission. It's nice if they give you permission, but they don't need to. No, that's it's it's that's what it is.
Speaker #1
Every agency we've been with said no lawyers said this.
Speaker #0
Well, your lawyers and the agencies are wrong. And we didn't want to get in a cat fight with a woman. Yeah. Kurt Lavin, she's like, show me the proof. And so literally after that call, I knew this is the fact, but I went and found the proof. I was like, well, maybe, Kevin, maybe you've been drinking too much or smoking too many cigars and you've lost your mind. So I went and found the proof. It's now in our FAQ. I want to just clear that up for everybody listening. In the United States, this is the United States. This does not apply to Canada or Europe. But in the United States, it's an opt-out. permission. It's not, it's not opt in. That's different under GDPR in the UK and, and Europe and stuff, but it, it's opt out. So you can email people without them opting in. Now, should you do that? No, under certain circumstances, no, you shouldn't. But if someone has bought from you, that's an implied relationship. They, these, that's what this lady had, 100,000 people that bought from them, but because they didn't, they didn't opt in that she didn't want to email follow. And a lot of people, when they do that, they're all, well, if they unsubscribe, that's okay. I just spoke with someone this morning about that. And they're like, well, how often is too much to email somebody? I said, three times a day maybe is pushing it. But it's like, really, three times a day? I said, yeah, maybe that's pushing it. But twice a day or daily, there's nothing wrong with that. And he's like, well, you're going to lose people. I was like, yes. Perfect. That's perfect. They're not going to buy from you. There's people that... in our world, Norm, that came to MarketMasters, good friends of me and you, that unsubscribe from our emails. They unsubscribe because, and at first, you know, years ago, I was like, dude, why did you unsubscribe? I'm hurt. You don't want to, it's like, well, I just, I'm not going to buy your stuff. It's like, oh, that's true. You're not, you're not, you're not going to buy this. But what if I have something that you would buy? So I know you'll reach out to me and you'll, you'll find me another way. So that's true. I will. Good marketers do that. They hit you on different channels in different ways. It's not just email. But email, I sent my first email. You remember when you sent your first? I think it was 1994. You remember when I sent my first email? I sent, you know, in college, we had a computer room. And there was like, you had to go into a terminal. And like, it was kind of like a, it's kind of, you had to be kind of geekish to send an email. And you could send a message to another. It was kind of cool. So I messaged to another university. This is like 1988, so I'm dating myself. But I know 1994, we had a designer that had to do some logo stuff for me. And it's like cleaning up a logo to do a printed brochure. And I was like, I called him up. I said, hey, I got to go to press this afternoon or tonight. I got to get this to the back then you had to output film negatives, you know. And I said, I need this logo cleaned up. I'm going to put it on a floppy, a three and a half inch floppy and have a courier bring it over. He's like, why don't you just email it to me? I'm like, what are you talking about? He's like, yeah, just attach it to an email and just email it to me. I was like, well, how do I do that? And I figured it out because that was way quicker and cheaper than sending a courier. So that was my first email. Do you remember your first email?
Speaker #1
Absolutely. And it was interesting because this goes back to BBS. The bulletin boards, the old modems. I ended up going back to college to take a course. And that was the first time I got it and had an email address. And it was in college that I was corresponding with the teacher. And it was an internet course. So learning about like Gopher, remember that back in the day? Yeah. You know, all of that. Yeah, but it was way back. Whatever. Yeah. CompuServe, AOL. And I remember, oh, this is funny. like I I remember I was working at the office and I had another computer behind me and I hear this some guy's going how are you today I'm going like who are you and who why do you care and there was some guy trying to contact me through CompuServe and it was the first time
Speaker #0
I received a message yeah I remember CompuServe AOL I mean I started selling I was selling baseball cards, like cases of baseball cards. And we were doing that 93, actually, on like those platforms. And there was internal message, kind of like a slack of its day. Yeah. But internal messaging, it wasn't this outside thing. But email has been around for a long time. And it's everybody. I think there's 4.6 billion email people with email addresses in the US. I mean, in the world, that's far more. Facebook doesn't even. approach that number. Facebook's not too far behind, but more people have that than any social media. And most people don't change their email. They may have multiple emails, but most people don't really change their email. They keep it. I still have an email that I signed up for 25 years ago. So like phone numbers. So a lot of times they're good or they forward it on. And I started seeing the value of email. I kind of have to print something and send it through the mail. to get an order and wait a week to see if even my advertising is going to work. If a check comes in the mail, I could just send an email. So in 1995 or six-ish, I started actually sending email, marketing emails. Back then it was easy. There was no canned spam. There was no junk mail folder or promo. Everything went in the inbox and it was so novel. Everybody, your open rates were like 95% and it was just printing money for us. We sold everything. So I've been doing it. 30 years. You were doing it with some of your companies in the 90s too, right?
Speaker #1
We actually did a lot of email marketing for Microsoft back in the day. Microsoft Canada. We sent out a lot of their emails. We had some huge companies that we sent out.
Speaker #0
You were just the infrastructure? You were writing them and sending them?
Speaker #1
No, they would give it to us. We would blast it out.
Speaker #0
Okay, so they didn't have a way to do like bulk.
Speaker #1
No, but we did have, you remember, Kevin, I was telling you, we used to have this technology back in the day that embedded video and did an overlay that you could send out. So I had this company that created HTML emails and you could, as long as you had Outlook, which was the majority back then, you would receive these absolutely gorgeous, gorgeous emails. So we did a lot for celebrities, athletes, sports cities, and they'd have all their information going down to one side. So, you know, all these links. But yeah, Microsoft at the time was one of our biggest clients.
Speaker #0
Hey, Norm, I'm sitting here inside Seller Central on Amazon, and I'm trying to figure out if I'm making any money. I know you go to business reports and then campaign manager and then, but there's a ton of options here. It's like a payment report. There's a the cost spreadsheet, and a whole bunch of others. Is there an easier way to do this?
Speaker #1
Yeah, it could be really confusing, Kev. So never fear, Datado is here. And all you have to do is go to Claude or ChatGPT and just ask it. For example, which queue lost money after ads last month? And guess what? You'll get a list.
Speaker #0
How do I do this?
Speaker #1
All you have to do is go to datado.com. That's D-O-E. And you'll get a free course. showing you exactly how to do this and a 14-day free trial. And use code NORM50 and you'll get half off your first paid month.
Speaker #0
Sweet. Addo.com, here I come. I mean, this is so easy back then, too. I mean, it's just like an ATM machine back then. I mean, because there's no filters, there's no nothing. And if you just stood out in this new little thing, It was easy. But that's not the case today. I mean, sending emails in bulk is not easy. A lot of our listeners probably have a Klaviyo or MailChimp or AWeber account or OmniSend or something. And they're like, yeah, I've been sending emails and it's just not working. Or we get some sales like that one woman that has the list of 30,000. We're like, yeah, we send that out and we get $400, I think she said.
Speaker #1
Or they don't realize it. They think that they send it out on their domain. So let's get that clear. On their domain, they're sending out these bulk emails, and they're thinking, oh, they're going to everybody's inbox.
Speaker #0
Yeah, they're looking at their open rates and like, yeah, we're getting like 20% or 30% open rates. But what most people don't understand is open rates is a bad metric to look at. You do want to look at it because it is an indicator, but it's the wrong KPI. Because Apple made a change about four or five years ago. where every email sent to any kind of Apple device, it actually shows as open. So I can send an email right now at, I don't know, send it at 8 o'clock in the morning to a list of 10,000 people. And if at 8.02, I can hit refresh on my stats and it'll show like a 13% open rate. And I'm like, man, everybody's sitting on their computer looking at my email. That's not the case. Nobody has seen it. That's Apple's signal back. It's a privacy thing. They didn't want people doing tracking. on those open so they they put that in and then there's a lot of bots so there's a lot of uh especially to business to business emails you're sending to business accounts a lot of companies have security software and so they will actually open every before it actually gets put into your email box the security software opens the email so it shows as an open and then it clicks every link in there to make sure there's no down you know it's not going to download some uh spyware or whatever. All those show as clicks. So there's a lot of misleading information where people are sending out emails thinking that it's getting to people, but it's not. And there's a very technical understruct underbelly on sending email. There's something called DMARC, something called DKIM, and something called SPF. If you don't have those set up right, there's even a fourth one where you can have like a little authorized. You got to pay like a thousand bucks for it. There's ways to get it cheaper. You have a little logo that appears in the bar. There's things like that that you have to have just fundamentally just to have a chance to get in the inbox. And if you don't do those, and most people don't have those set up right or they're misconfigured, that affects a lot of your email.
Speaker #1
And then you're registering, Kev, like registering with Google Postmaster.
Speaker #0
Yeah, registering with Google Postmaster. And then if you have a new domain or something that you haven't sent from before, you can't just blast 100,000 emails or 10,000 or even 1,000. You have to warm it up. You have to teach the email system, the ASPs, email service providers, like this is legitimate. You just send 1,000 emails from a domain all of a sudden. They're going to be like, this is some spammer that's just doing some promo. You have to stair-step it up. And if you don't do that properly... and get engagement on the other side where people are unsubscribing people are clicking people are are are looking at it opening it it's it's gonna kill you it's just like kind of launching on amazon you can you can you you gotta play the game to actually get to the top of the of the rankings and that's the same thing with email so a lot of people they're sending stuff on their cloud view it's on their domain and somebody that worked for them years ago did something wrong They don't know if they're on blacklists. You could be on what's called RBLs, real-time blacklists. And there's about 250 major ones. And if there's only two or three that if you're on them, it's going to kill like half your delivery. There's the big ones, like Spam House is one. And if you're on those and you don't get yourself taken off or mitigate that, everything you do is just, a lot of it's just going into the fire. And a lot of people don't realize all that. if and It's hard to recover. You can recover, but you get, so if you're sending out like this lady says, they're sending out 30,000, you can get $400 in orders. And these are just previous paying customers. There's something wrong there. It could be something wrong with their offer. I don't know what they're selling. Maybe it's a bad offer, but there's basically five major areas when it comes to sending out email. One of those is you've got to get it delivered. It's got to at least get delivered. Some of these... ESPs just block it totally. There's been times where someone's sending me an email. It's like, nope, it's not here. We'll check your spam or your junk. It's like, nope, it's not in spam. It's not in junk. It's nowhere. You're getting blocked because either something in that message is blocking it. Or that email address is on a block list for some reason. Or it's not configured right, and so it's blocking it for that reason.
Speaker #1
That just, you know, sorry.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
That was happening a little while ago, and I couldn't figure out. We'd be sending out emails, and emails weren't getting to place, or people were sending us emails. And it just, the devil's in the details. And what I found out, going back, this is a while ago, but Google. Google Workspace, there are settings in there that you have to set up for your email that if they're not set up properly, the default settings will not allow the emails to come through or some that you're sending out won't be received at the other end.
Speaker #0
Yeah, there's also a lot of people don't realize this, but you should never put a bit.ly link or link shortener in an email because that's instant spam. and some block that. If they see some ESPs, like the company that actually delivers your email, it's like the postman, or post delivering your letters, it's the one that delivers it. If they see the Bitly link, for example, they just block it. It doesn't even go to your spam or junk. It's just like, nope, denied, delete, see you, goodbye. And there's also, if you have links in your email, I found this out in my newsletter. There was a period about two years ago in my newsletter I was sending out, and my open rates, And click rates just went down. I was getting like 50, 60%. You probably remember me talking to you about this. I was like, damn, I'm at like 32% now. I don't know what's going on. I got some bad names, bad leads, people, whatever. I finally figured it out. I was linking out to some articles. And one of these was on a big site, CNBC, I think it was. CNBC was on a blacklist. Anything linking to CNBC was on a blacklist. And so I had links in my emails that were going to sites that were flagged and they blocked the emails. So that's why like I never send to my current, what we do in Dragonfish, for example, is if for our warm clients, we're helping them send to their current customers. That's what that means. We have sending domains and we have landing page domains. So we have a domain that actually... there's no email ever goes out from that domain. All that domain does is host landing pages. That way it can never be on a blacklist. Well, it could be. I'm not going to say never, but its chances of getting on a blacklist are slim to none. And if we did something or we messed up somewhere along the way on one of the sending domains and it got on a blacklist, if we were linking back to that and the emails, it would affect everything. And so we actually separate it off. So if you're... If your domain is on, your main domain is on a blacklist and you're sending out emails from that domain and sending them back to your Shopify store on that domain, you might just be creating this round route, round robin of nothing happening and just stuff going into the ether. And so a lot of people don't realize there's a lot of little things like that that you have to know. And then when it comes to cold email, if you're going to, not everybody likes to do this, but some people call it spam. But if someone... if you target it right and people want to hear from you and that you solve their problem it's not really spam um it's just like when you get mail some people call junk mail and they're sorting over the trash can and there's one thing it's like oh here's 50 off uh your free pizza a free cube uh a coupon for free domino's pizza um no no no purchase necessary uh just call and it's only good on friday you know that's not junk mail to you you're like that's relevant to me uh I want to eat some pizza on Friday for free. So you have to think of it in those terms, not as in junk. So if you're providing cold email of people that didn't ask to receive a message from me, but they're in the market looking for something. They're like, they got a problem right now with headaches. There may be a woman in her 40s or late 40s, and she's going through menopause, and she's got these massive headaches, and she's going to Google, and she's typing, looking for a solution, or she's asking ChatGPT or Claude. looking for a solution, and you happen to pop an email into her box at that moment, or within a day or so of her looking for that solution, you're relevant. You're not spam. And so that's a key. But with cold email, the infrastructure is totally different. And you shouldn't mix the two. If you're going to do that kind of email, just for example, at Dragonfish, we have 18 domains, 18 different domains to send 1000 emails per day. Each is about 65, 60 to 80 email boxes on those 18 domains between them, not on each one, but total. That way they stay clean if one goes bad. There's a whole system to this, but that gets you 99% deliverability and 90% inboxing. Because you can have 99% deliverability, but 10% of them go to inbox, the rest go to junk or spam or promote. We've seen that. We've seen that. It never gets longer time. So you have to get delivered. That's number one. Then you have to get in the inbox. That's the second thing of those five I was talking about. So if you're not doing that right, don't have that infrastructure set up right, or you're using words in your subject line or bad links in your body of the email, then you've got to get it opened. So then you've got to know how to write a subject line and preview text. A lot of people don't use preview text. That's the little text that's kind of like a subheadline. It doesn't show up on all email. Like Apple Mail usually doesn't show it, but Gmail shows it. It shows that little kind of like a sneak peek of what's inside. It's either the first sentence of the email by default, or if you don't put anything in the preview text, but that can majorly help you get that open. Once you get the open, then you got to get it read. A lot of people don't know how to design emails. Everybody thinks that HTML emails, the pretty emails is the way to go. And you see a lot of marketing agencies making pretty emails. And they look like brochures or they look like something. That's great sometimes for like. beauty products or sometimes it's good to do that. But a lot of times it's not. It actually hurts your deliverability. It's better to do text. And you should split test that and see. But the text has to be right. So you got to get people to read it. And a lot of people do big blocks of text or it's not designed well. It's like, here's a paragraph that's like 12 lines long. Can't do that. One or two sentences per paragraph, three max, white space, spacing, emphasis on molding. The whole process that guides them through. So it's got, most people aren't going to read it. They're going to skim it. So you got to know how to do that. Then once you get the red done, the next step is you got to get a click. So if you can't get the click, you don't compel them enough. And whatever you're trying to get them to do, it's for naught. And the next step after that is you got to convert them. Wherever they click, whatever that landing page is or the store, you got to convert them. And any one of those breaks along that way, it's not going to work. And that's what we see. Norm and I have seen this, how many times we've seen this, Norm, over and over and over with people that, you know, in the Amazon space and the marketing space, they just don't, they don't understand how email doesn't work. It's like, well, no, maybe it's what you're doing doesn't work. It's not that the email doesn't work. It's just, you don't know, you know, I know how to drive a Toyota, but I don't know how to drive an F1 race car. So there's a big difference. Hey, Norm, do you know any sellers out there that are just burned out doing this e-com game?
Speaker #1
You know, I know a lot of people that have talked to us, you know, when we go to events. It's not only that, they don't know where to start.
Speaker #0
Who would you recommend they talk to?
Speaker #1
First one that comes to mind is Quietlight Brokerage. And here's why. They're going to build you up. They're going to understand your company. And at the end of the day, you're going to know how to maximize your valuation. So the very first thing you need to do is go and get your free confidential evaluation at QuietLight.com. They're going to ask a couple of questions. You're going to meet up. It's one-on-one with somebody over there. And then, you know, let the games begin.
Speaker #0
Awesome. What was that website again?
Speaker #1
It's QuietLight.com.
Speaker #0
Awesome. I'm going to head over there.
Speaker #1
I, uh... I've just seen, I saw this recently where somebody gave us an email to send out and I wrote them back and just said, this is not going to work. It was laid out completely wrong. It was, everything was wrong about it. And we did it. Customer's always right. Even though I tried to, you know, and the results were like I thought. So now they're allowing us to design this for them. And it's not just the email, like if it's going to a landing page. What does your landing page look like? What does your funnel look like? There's a lot more that we can talk about. But Kevin, can you just lay out those five items to make a great email?
Speaker #0
Well, to make a great email, you got to have a good subject line is number one. And the subject line has got to be relevant and get them to open. Not spammy, not trying to trick them, but relevant and get them to open. And then the... The preview text should back up. So you have to have good preview text. And so that should back up the subject line. And then the first line of the email is super important. It needs to basically confirm what the subject line says that, yeah, I made the right choice opening this email. And so that first line is super, super important to it's not how's the, how's the weather in Toronto? Uh, that's a waste. It's got to reconfirm whatever it was in that subject, subject line. And then you've got to have the space, the, the right. format. It's got to be skimmable and readable. Long emails can work. It's not the length of the email. Sometimes you need short, sometimes you need long. Is it skimmable and are the points drawn? A PS is one of the most valuable points of any letter or any email. The PS will get read after the subject line, maybe the first sentence. The PS will be the next most read thing on the entire email. So if you don't have a PS that reconfirms your offer, then that's not good. You also don't want to do CTAs or call to actions. You want to do call to values. So don't say shop now or buy it here. You want to say start your weight loss journey today or whatever it may be, not click here to get the GOP want to get your first bottle. You want to do call to values. Those are important. And in the way you word it, you want to get in the head of the customer and you want to So when they're reading your email, they're like, if you're special, if you're selling something, you're like, they're like, that's me. It's not about the features or necessarily even the benefits. It's like, what is this me? And what's the payoff going to be if I take the action to get this product or service? And that's what you've got to paint that picture. And with AI today, you can do that used to be, you have to have a $25,000 per letter copywriter. And there's some still out there. There's still doing it. I know a couple. I charge that much just to write a single letter or single email. And they're really, really good. But with AI, you can come close to that. But the problem is most people using AI to write emails, it's probably a better email than if you just sat down and write it yourself, but it still sucks because AI is the average of everything that's out there. And if you're not prompting the AI right or briefing it correctly, you're going to get mediocre average stuff, which is probably better. for most of you than what you could get otherwise. And that's why you see so much junk coming through. That's just like, oh, there's another AI thing, another AI thing. But if you know how to do it properly and actually use first principles as part of that and actually do the right research and feed it the right brain and have a good system that's taught off of like 30 years of experience and not just what AI says is the best thing in this case, the power is... of what you can do is crazy and that's what dragonfish has done so for dragonfish which is norman eyes email company we do we do warm email so we help you maximize your current list and like norm said we don't do it on your current domain we set up a whole new infrastructure that we know is clean and it doesn't have any past reputations and we build that and that way it doesn't affect anything and we also do cold so if someone's in the market for a magnesium this This woman that's in her... 40s in the market for magnesium cream because she's got headaches at menopause. We know how to find those people who are searching for that without them ever coming to your website, without them ever clicking an ad. We know how to get them and send them an email. And we send them an email that identifies with their problem. So it's not like, hey, our magnesium cream is the best. You get some headaches. This is help. We're so sorry. You're going through this. Whatever AI might normally write, the email is going to start out. It's Thanks. The subject line is going to be it's 3 a.m. and you can't and you're looking at the ceiling and can't sleep. Something to that effect. And someone's going to get that email and go, this is me. This is me. And the way it's wording, it's a soft sale. It 3x or 4x is the conversion rate. But the way we get that is we create 20. We have 22 different skills that create 16 different brains. And every one of these brains is... built before we write a single word. These are detailed. These are like, sometimes they're 45 page documents.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
They're called MD files or markdown files. And so we will go in and everyone is isolated and specialized. So it's kind of like having, you know, 16 specialists on your team. One of them is nothing about, nothing but, but about the brand and compliance issues. And, you know, the way that you, you talk. Another one is nothing but... about your competitors. And then another one is nothing about your competitors and the gaps. Where are the gaps? Where's the gaps that you can fill in on them? Then another one is called storm analysis. It's a Stanford level analytics. That's really great. Another one is first principles where our clients actually do run a prompt on their machine and give us the answer back that really personalizes and makes AI not average. Another one is AEO and SEO. We know exactly where the top phrase is. that need to be in the emails or on the landing pages. Another one actually builds landing pages. And we build five different landing pages for every email. And every one of those is a specific theme. So if it's a woman with headaches and the magnesium is the product, magnesium cream is the product, everything on that page is that woman and all about her problems. But magnesium cream can also be used for runners who have sore ankles. So we have another page that's all the pictures are nothing but runners and talking about sore ankles. So it's hyper-focused. and we create avatars and these avatars are not up, not like up. She's a woman that's 62. She lives in, uh, in Ohio and she has two dogs and a cat. We do all that basic stuff. You know, she drives this kind of car. And, but we also, these avatars are like 10 pages long. We go into the pain points related to the product. So in the product, the product might be like, uh, if I use this cream, what's my husband going to say? What is If I use this cream, why would I not use this cream? What are my doubts? What are my concerns? What happens if I do this and it's magical and it actually works? How's my life going to improve? And we have like 20 reasons on each one of those. We do a thousand pain points on every single one. We do all these, every one of these is a different brain. It just keeps going on and on. We do one that's a quiz on and on and on before we write a single word. And once we write these words, then we use the AI to actually help us create these. We guide it. Humans are always in the loop and guiding it. And it creates amazing stuff. And because we have the infrastructure sound, and because we have the copy and the process sound on the other end, the results are ridiculously good. And so nobody's doing this. Most people you hire and someone to come in and do your email marketing, they come into your Klaviyo and they do what's called your welcome flow. Like this first time a customer gets on your list, you send them a special... series of emails to welcome them to the family. There's nothing wrong with that. You should be doing this. Or it's an abandoned cart. Maybe you abandoned the cart. You put something in your cart and didn't end up paying for it. Send them an email. Or maybe it's out of stock and stuff like that. Those are good flows, and that's what a lot of people do. They help you write your Black Friday, Cyber Monday email. And all that's great, but that's not what we do. We can help you with some of that, but that's not what we do. we Set up a whole system on the side and maximize it like I just talked about. That's, I mean, you've seen Norma, the stuff, and we developed all this stuff. And the people that we've shown it to when we get on a call and we actually take them kind of under the hood and show them the pistons, they're blown away. They're like, I've never seen it. People have been doing this 17 years. I mean, at Market Masters, you talk to a couple of people there that do Klaviyo email marketing. They're like, one of them is like a gold star email. market.
Speaker #1
One percent.
Speaker #0
The top one percent for Klaviyo. And what, you know, what was their reaction?
Speaker #1
Yeah, they loved it. They couldn't believe it. And hopefully we can partner.
Speaker #0
Yeah, if you're listening. But yeah, so it's, that's where, and AI makes it so you can do this now. This would have been in the past to do it at this level. We've taken some expensive copywriters, we've taken a whole team of researchers and people to do this. And now, It can be done. It's still a lot of work because you guys know how to set up that infrastructure. You got to know how to create these brains. You got to know how to write these sequences. You got to know how to do all this flow. But we take it even further than that. When we send out an email, the first time we send to somebody, we don't just say, OK, at 8 a.m., send this email to 10,000 people. The first time we send it, and usually our email sequences are like three. So there's a part one, a part two and a part three. And the first one doesn't. it gets triggered and it gets triggered not by 8 a.m. local time. There's tools out there like OmniSend. You can send it 8 a.m. local time. So I get it 8 a.m. Texas time. Norm gets it at 8 a.m. Eastern time in Toronto and someone in London gets it at 8 a.m. UK time. So it's consistent. You know, if you want it at breakfast, there's tools that do that. Those are great. But what we do is we send it the first email when you're in your inbox. So maybe that's 826 or maybe that's three o'clock in the afternoon. Because what happens is when you're in your inbox, you're the most attentive. And so if you're in your inbox checking, looking to see what came in that day, or maybe you're looking for a specific email, that's the moment you want to pop in there. Because in that moment, when an email pops to the top, you're 10 times more likely to see it and three times more likely to open it. And so what that does is it trains Gmail and all the other service providers out there that, hey, this is... They wanted to get this email. They opened it pretty quickly. It must be something important. So let's flag this email that just came from Kevin and Norm as important. So the next time one comes in, don't put it to the junk, put it to the inbox. Because obviously it's something they really were eager to see. And then it helps the whole sequence down the road. So there's things like that. And there's other things that we do on the intent side, where if we got that person that just searched for, they're having headaches, migraines at night, and... We're going to send them an email unannounced and just saying, hey, we got the solution. But we're not going to come in and say, we know you're going to do that 3 a.m. storytelling thing I told you. What we do before we send those people is we put them through a whole bunch of filters. So we know when we capture that person that just searched, we take that email address that we captured anonymously. Totally legal. Nothing illegal about this at all in the United States. We captured it, and we actually put it through, and we see, has this email been opened in the last 30 days? If it hasn't, then we don't send anything to it. And then we also, if it has been opened in the last 30 days, have they clicked anything in the last seven days? If they have, we give them a gold star. And then we'll see how many times do they appear in the database that they're searching over the last 30 days. And if they got more than one time that they showed that they're looking for something to solve their headache problem, they get another gold star. And we filter that down. Then we clean the lists. And we put it through 28 different points. So, like, do they hit that mark a spam button a lot? We know that. ESPs report that to databases. We know if there's a spam trap. We know a whole bunch of other things. So we clean the list. And we end up at the end of the day with a pretty pristine email list. That's filtered to the people most likely to respond because they got those two gold stars. And that's who we email to, to sell your magnesium cream because they can't sleep at 3 o'clock in the morning. And it's very, very effective. Hey, Kevin King and Norm Farrar here. If you've been enjoying this episode of Marketing Misfits, thanks for listening this far. Continue listening. We've got some more valuable stuff coming up. Be sure to hit that subscribe button if you're listening to this on your favorite. podcast player, or if you're watching this on YouTube or Spotify, make sure you subscribe to our channel because you don't want to miss a single episode of The Marketing Misfits. Have you subscribed yet, Norm?
Speaker #1
Well, this is an old guy alert. Should I subscribe to my own podcast?
Speaker #0
Yeah, but what if you forget to show up one time? It's just me on here. You're not going to know what I say.
Speaker #1
I'll buy you a beard and you can sit in my chair too. You can go back and forth with one another. Yikes But... That being said, don't forget to subscribe, share it. Oh, and if you really like this content, somewhere up there, there's a banner. Click on it and you'll go to another episode of the Marketing Misfits.
Speaker #0
Make sure you don't miss a single episode because you don't want to be like Norm.
Speaker #1
Oh.
Speaker #0
And that's the level that Dragonfish does that I don't know anybody else. in the industry. I don't know if you ever heard anybody, Norm, that does anything even remotely close to this level.
Speaker #1
No, I haven't heard. And everybody I've talked to, nobody's heard about this at all.
Speaker #0
So, I mean, the board, I've been talking for a while here and explaining Dragonfish, but I just want to make a point. You don't have to use Dragonfish. I mean, you just understand that email is massively powerful. It's... It should add 30 to 40% to your gross. So if you're doing $10 million a year right now on Amazon, let's say, and you're doing no email and you've got a list of 30, 40, 50, 100,000 names and you're rarely sending them anything, you're leaving several million dollars on the table, literally. Several million dollars on the table. So start doing something. Hire somebody to start sending some emails, start checking your system, start some of these tips that I've given you. uh and norms talked about and i've talked about start implementing some of those or if that's not something you are comfortable or you don't have time to mess with that go to dragon.fish and take a look we have a calculator there i mean you can like play around with the calculator put in your margins put in uh how often you want to mail and you can get an idea of how much profit you can make after you pay us what we charge and after your cost of goods You can see that, oh, no, this is not going to work. I'm going to lose $1,000 a month. Or you can see, oh, I can make $17,000 extra profit a month. Go play with that.
Speaker #1
Yeah, or you can book a call.
Speaker #0
And then book a call. If you're like, I don't understand how this thing works, or you just want to learn more or have questions, there's a book a call button there, and book a call with us, and we'll get on and explain it to you. What am I leaving out here, Norm, about email? I mean, it's ridiculous how powerful it is, and it just boggles my mind how misunderstood it is.
Speaker #1
Very misunderstood. A lot of people go by their own emotion. I don't like receiving it, like we talked about at the beginning. So nobody likes it. But that's so wrong. Definitely leaving 30, 40% on the table. So what I would do is just Check into it. See what you're doing. If you're just going out there and doing the old add to cart or, you know, just a follow-up or post-purchase email, that's one thing. But there's so many other things you could be doing. So check us out if you like. Oh,
Speaker #0
there's two other things, Norman, we didn't even mention. Before we wrap up here, we can also do what's called IP resolution. So when people come to your website, We can identify between 40 and 70 percent of them without them even signing up. You get some javascript you put it on your page and we can identify the people and then we can take that data and create all kinds of demographic stuff off of it and avatar so you know who's who's visiting your site you know how to better target your ads on facebook or on amazon or wherever and another thing we can do is if those of you that are selling on on amazon or walmart you know you don't get your customer data they protect that they don't share the email addresses for this Physical addresses with you. We can help you. We have something called Marketplace Capture. We give you a special QR code to put on your packaging or inside your box or on your labels or on your plastic wrap or whatever. And that helps people will scan that. About 5% to 10% of the people that order from you will scan it the way we do it. And it takes them to a page that gives them a discount or something on their next order. It's totally... TOS compliant. There's no review manipulation or anything like that going on in there. And then we also put the IP resolution on there. So we capture quite a few people and you can build a list really fast. So those are just two other things, among many others, that we could help you with.
Speaker #1
All right. Well, I think we're getting close to having to cut this off, Kev.
Speaker #0
Yeah, I could keep talking about this forever. So if you want to talk about it with me and Norm or someone on our team more. Go to dragon.fish, check everything out, and hopefully we can answer specific questions for you.
Speaker #1
All right. And if you want to hear more Marketing Misfits, go to YouTube and check out for the long form Marketing Misfits podcast, short clips, three minutes and under, Marketing Misfits clips. And we're also over on TikTok, just Marketing Misfits. And Kevin, we've got a newsletter.
Speaker #0
We do. Misfits.News. Every Wednesday, a brand new newsletter comes out highlighting the best of the podcast, current and past. So check that out at Misfits.News.
Speaker #1
All right. So that's it for today. We'll see you next Tuesday.
Speaker #0
Take care, everybody. you

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Transcription

Speaker #0
There's one fundamental thing that goes back to the beginning of the internet that most people are overlooking and that's email. You've seen the power of what email can do, right?
Speaker #1
Absolutely, the power of email. Now the problem, it's not sexy enough. It's not that new shiny squirrel.
Speaker #0
It should add 30 to 40% to your gross. So if you're doing $10 million a year right now on Amazon, you're leaving several million dollars on the table.
Speaker #1
We actually did a lot of email marketing for Microsoft back in the day.
Speaker #0
A lot of people don't know how to design emails. Everybody thinks that HTML, pretty emails, is the way to go. It actually hurts your deliverability. It's better to do text. Open rates is a bad metric to look at. You do want to look at it because it is an indicator, but it's the wrong KPI. So we did a lot for celebrities, athletes, sports, cities. You should never put a bit.ly link or link shortener in an email. They just block it. Careful. How's life up in the great... It's not white north yet, is it? But soon it'll be white north, right?
Speaker #1
Take the knife out of my back. Yes, and it's getting cooler. I gotta put a bloody sweater on to go and have a cigar.
Speaker #0
It's... We're recording this... At the time we're recording this, it's early fall, and you have to put on a sweater? I have to, like, take a towel to wipe the sweat off of me when I go for a cigar. I'm gonna have a fan, an existing fan that's blowing it. You know, when last time you were here, we were sitting out there in July heat in Texas, and I bought those little fans that blow unbearable,
Speaker #1
unbearable heat. But I got 100, and my, I stayed at your place, and the air conditioning was, it was like 107 degrees. You had me in your room, and then we went, you had marketing masters going on. Yeah, yeah, that's clear, that's clear. But you had that event going on. And you gave me a room. This is the Gatsby Mansion and this is Market Masters. And so, hey, Norm, you want to stay at the mansion? Sure. That's great. Oh, OK. Take the room. Third floor, 107 and the air conditioning goes out. Yeah, that was hot.
Speaker #0
That happened at night or during the day?
Speaker #1
At night. Well, it happened at night or during the day when I first got there. The blinds were off, so now you're getting the sun coming in. Then, the air conditioning went out for the second night, so it was just horrible. But, the next night, we figured it out, the air conditioning's turned on, room's nice and cool. Wake up, I go, what the? I go out, I crank it down, and it's at 74 or something. I turn it down, I wake up again, it's like, what the hell? Somebody cranked it up to 74 again, and it was a battle between me and whoever that was.
Speaker #0
It's probably a woman. Oh, I think I know who it was. A skinny woman or something.
Speaker #1
I think I know who it was.
Speaker #0
Yeah, that's your initiation to Texas. Welcome. I'll take that any day over 27 feet of snow. Minus 44. 107 minus 44 in the shit minus 44 in the sun we would say it's 107 in the shade you flip it for you it's minus 44 in the sun but man speaking of minus 44 and and and flipping it you know there's a lot of people that are are not taking advantage of something they should be taking advantage of leaving a lot of money on the table when it comes to their marketing. We talk to a lot of people here on the podcast and a lot of different marketers, people doing funnels, people doing Facebook ads, people doing press releases and PR and people doing all kinds of referrals and licensing and all this kind of different stuff. But there's one fundamental thing that goes back to the beginning of the internet that most people are overlooking and that's email. And I don't get it. I mean, you've seen this where you get your... You had your newsletter and you guys do stuff and email with Lunch with Norm and all that. You've seen the power of what email can do, right?
Speaker #1
Absolutely. And you know what? Before I even answer that, I was wondering how you were going to do that segue.
Speaker #0
You always wonder about my segue.
Speaker #1
Yeah, it's like, all right, all right, he's turning it. But yeah, absolutely. The power of email. Now the problem at most people, well, I think a lot of entrepreneurs, it's not sexy enough. It's not that new shiny squirrel.
Speaker #0
It's not sexy enough. And then a lot of people, some people are annoyed by email. You know, we talked to a guy with our agency, Dragonfish. And the guy, he saw one of our webinars and he was like, this looks great. I'm all in for it. And he gets on the call with us. He was pretty much sold, just had a few questions. He's like, but I got to take this to the boss. And the boss hates email. He hates getting spam. He hates these. He wants his email to only be from his friends and business people and nothing else in there. And so he has that mentality because he doesn't like it that then he shouldn't do it for anybody else. And then what about the other lady we talked to? There's another lady who was on our webinar. She loved it. She was like the, I don't know, I guess, I don't know exactly her position, but something in the marketing department. But there's somebody evidently above her, a little bit more senior woman that was above her that came in on the call and basically fought us on everything. Like they had a list of 100,000 people. Remember this one, Norm? They had a list of like 100,000 people. How do I? And they were like. We're like, well, that's great. You're perfect for what we can help you. And they're like, no, we only email 30,000 of them. We're like, why? Well, it's illegal. And I'm like, what do you mean it's illegal? It's like, well, they didn't opt in. They didn't give us permission. And I'm like, well, they don't you don't need to give you permission. It's nice if they give you permission, but they don't need to. No, that's it's it's that's what it is.
Speaker #1
Every agency we've been with said no lawyers said this.
Speaker #0
Well, your lawyers and the agencies are wrong. And we didn't want to get in a cat fight with a woman. Yeah. Kurt Lavin, she's like, show me the proof. And so literally after that call, I knew this is the fact, but I went and found the proof. I was like, well, maybe, Kevin, maybe you've been drinking too much or smoking too many cigars and you've lost your mind. So I went and found the proof. It's now in our FAQ. I want to just clear that up for everybody listening. In the United States, this is the United States. This does not apply to Canada or Europe. But in the United States, it's an opt-out. permission. It's not, it's not opt in. That's different under GDPR in the UK and, and Europe and stuff, but it, it's opt out. So you can email people without them opting in. Now, should you do that? No, under certain circumstances, no, you shouldn't. But if someone has bought from you, that's an implied relationship. They, these, that's what this lady had, 100,000 people that bought from them, but because they didn't, they didn't opt in that she didn't want to email follow. And a lot of people, when they do that, they're all, well, if they unsubscribe, that's okay. I just spoke with someone this morning about that. And they're like, well, how often is too much to email somebody? I said, three times a day maybe is pushing it. But it's like, really, three times a day? I said, yeah, maybe that's pushing it. But twice a day or daily, there's nothing wrong with that. And he's like, well, you're going to lose people. I was like, yes. Perfect. That's perfect. They're not going to buy from you. There's people that... in our world, Norm, that came to MarketMasters, good friends of me and you, that unsubscribe from our emails. They unsubscribe because, and at first, you know, years ago, I was like, dude, why did you unsubscribe? I'm hurt. You don't want to, it's like, well, I just, I'm not going to buy your stuff. It's like, oh, that's true. You're not, you're not, you're not going to buy this. But what if I have something that you would buy? So I know you'll reach out to me and you'll, you'll find me another way. So that's true. I will. Good marketers do that. They hit you on different channels in different ways. It's not just email. But email, I sent my first email. You remember when you sent your first? I think it was 1994. You remember when I sent my first email? I sent, you know, in college, we had a computer room. And there was like, you had to go into a terminal. And like, it was kind of like a, it's kind of, you had to be kind of geekish to send an email. And you could send a message to another. It was kind of cool. So I messaged to another university. This is like 1988, so I'm dating myself. But I know 1994, we had a designer that had to do some logo stuff for me. And it's like cleaning up a logo to do a printed brochure. And I was like, I called him up. I said, hey, I got to go to press this afternoon or tonight. I got to get this to the back then you had to output film negatives, you know. And I said, I need this logo cleaned up. I'm going to put it on a floppy, a three and a half inch floppy and have a courier bring it over. He's like, why don't you just email it to me? I'm like, what are you talking about? He's like, yeah, just attach it to an email and just email it to me. I was like, well, how do I do that? And I figured it out because that was way quicker and cheaper than sending a courier. So that was my first email. Do you remember your first email?
Speaker #1
Absolutely. And it was interesting because this goes back to BBS. The bulletin boards, the old modems. I ended up going back to college to take a course. And that was the first time I got it and had an email address. And it was in college that I was corresponding with the teacher. And it was an internet course. So learning about like Gopher, remember that back in the day? Yeah. You know, all of that. Yeah, but it was way back. Whatever. Yeah. CompuServe, AOL. And I remember, oh, this is funny. like I I remember I was working at the office and I had another computer behind me and I hear this some guy's going how are you today I'm going like who are you and who why do you care and there was some guy trying to contact me through CompuServe and it was the first time
Speaker #0
I received a message yeah I remember CompuServe AOL I mean I started selling I was selling baseball cards, like cases of baseball cards. And we were doing that 93, actually, on like those platforms. And there was internal message, kind of like a slack of its day. Yeah. But internal messaging, it wasn't this outside thing. But email has been around for a long time. And it's everybody. I think there's 4.6 billion email people with email addresses in the US. I mean, in the world, that's far more. Facebook doesn't even. approach that number. Facebook's not too far behind, but more people have that than any social media. And most people don't change their email. They may have multiple emails, but most people don't really change their email. They keep it. I still have an email that I signed up for 25 years ago. So like phone numbers. So a lot of times they're good or they forward it on. And I started seeing the value of email. I kind of have to print something and send it through the mail. to get an order and wait a week to see if even my advertising is going to work. If a check comes in the mail, I could just send an email. So in 1995 or six-ish, I started actually sending email, marketing emails. Back then it was easy. There was no canned spam. There was no junk mail folder or promo. Everything went in the inbox and it was so novel. Everybody, your open rates were like 95% and it was just printing money for us. We sold everything. So I've been doing it. 30 years. You were doing it with some of your companies in the 90s too, right?
Speaker #1
We actually did a lot of email marketing for Microsoft back in the day. Microsoft Canada. We sent out a lot of their emails. We had some huge companies that we sent out.
Speaker #0
You were just the infrastructure? You were writing them and sending them?
Speaker #1
No, they would give it to us. We would blast it out.
Speaker #0
Okay, so they didn't have a way to do like bulk.
Speaker #1
No, but we did have, you remember, Kevin, I was telling you, we used to have this technology back in the day that embedded video and did an overlay that you could send out. So I had this company that created HTML emails and you could, as long as you had Outlook, which was the majority back then, you would receive these absolutely gorgeous, gorgeous emails. So we did a lot for celebrities, athletes, sports cities, and they'd have all their information going down to one side. So, you know, all these links. But yeah, Microsoft at the time was one of our biggest clients.
Speaker #0
Hey, Norm, I'm sitting here inside Seller Central on Amazon, and I'm trying to figure out if I'm making any money. I know you go to business reports and then campaign manager and then, but there's a ton of options here. It's like a payment report. There's a the cost spreadsheet, and a whole bunch of others. Is there an easier way to do this?
Speaker #1
Yeah, it could be really confusing, Kev. So never fear, Datado is here. And all you have to do is go to Claude or ChatGPT and just ask it. For example, which queue lost money after ads last month? And guess what? You'll get a list.
Speaker #0
How do I do this?
Speaker #1
All you have to do is go to datado.com. That's D-O-E. And you'll get a free course. showing you exactly how to do this and a 14-day free trial. And use code NORM50 and you'll get half off your first paid month.
Speaker #0
Sweet. Addo.com, here I come. I mean, this is so easy back then, too. I mean, it's just like an ATM machine back then. I mean, because there's no filters, there's no nothing. And if you just stood out in this new little thing, It was easy. But that's not the case today. I mean, sending emails in bulk is not easy. A lot of our listeners probably have a Klaviyo or MailChimp or AWeber account or OmniSend or something. And they're like, yeah, I've been sending emails and it's just not working. Or we get some sales like that one woman that has the list of 30,000. We're like, yeah, we send that out and we get $400, I think she said.
Speaker #1
Or they don't realize it. They think that they send it out on their domain. So let's get that clear. On their domain, they're sending out these bulk emails, and they're thinking, oh, they're going to everybody's inbox.
Speaker #0
Yeah, they're looking at their open rates and like, yeah, we're getting like 20% or 30% open rates. But what most people don't understand is open rates is a bad metric to look at. You do want to look at it because it is an indicator, but it's the wrong KPI. Because Apple made a change about four or five years ago. where every email sent to any kind of Apple device, it actually shows as open. So I can send an email right now at, I don't know, send it at 8 o'clock in the morning to a list of 10,000 people. And if at 8.02, I can hit refresh on my stats and it'll show like a 13% open rate. And I'm like, man, everybody's sitting on their computer looking at my email. That's not the case. Nobody has seen it. That's Apple's signal back. It's a privacy thing. They didn't want people doing tracking. on those open so they they put that in and then there's a lot of bots so there's a lot of uh especially to business to business emails you're sending to business accounts a lot of companies have security software and so they will actually open every before it actually gets put into your email box the security software opens the email so it shows as an open and then it clicks every link in there to make sure there's no down you know it's not going to download some uh spyware or whatever. All those show as clicks. So there's a lot of misleading information where people are sending out emails thinking that it's getting to people, but it's not. And there's a very technical understruct underbelly on sending email. There's something called DMARC, something called DKIM, and something called SPF. If you don't have those set up right, there's even a fourth one where you can have like a little authorized. You got to pay like a thousand bucks for it. There's ways to get it cheaper. You have a little logo that appears in the bar. There's things like that that you have to have just fundamentally just to have a chance to get in the inbox. And if you don't do those, and most people don't have those set up right or they're misconfigured, that affects a lot of your email.
Speaker #1
And then you're registering, Kev, like registering with Google Postmaster.
Speaker #0
Yeah, registering with Google Postmaster. And then if you have a new domain or something that you haven't sent from before, you can't just blast 100,000 emails or 10,000 or even 1,000. You have to warm it up. You have to teach the email system, the ASPs, email service providers, like this is legitimate. You just send 1,000 emails from a domain all of a sudden. They're going to be like, this is some spammer that's just doing some promo. You have to stair-step it up. And if you don't do that properly... and get engagement on the other side where people are unsubscribing people are clicking people are are are looking at it opening it it's it's gonna kill you it's just like kind of launching on amazon you can you can you you gotta play the game to actually get to the top of the of the rankings and that's the same thing with email so a lot of people they're sending stuff on their cloud view it's on their domain and somebody that worked for them years ago did something wrong They don't know if they're on blacklists. You could be on what's called RBLs, real-time blacklists. And there's about 250 major ones. And if there's only two or three that if you're on them, it's going to kill like half your delivery. There's the big ones, like Spam House is one. And if you're on those and you don't get yourself taken off or mitigate that, everything you do is just, a lot of it's just going into the fire. And a lot of people don't realize all that. if and It's hard to recover. You can recover, but you get, so if you're sending out like this lady says, they're sending out 30,000, you can get $400 in orders. And these are just previous paying customers. There's something wrong there. It could be something wrong with their offer. I don't know what they're selling. Maybe it's a bad offer, but there's basically five major areas when it comes to sending out email. One of those is you've got to get it delivered. It's got to at least get delivered. Some of these... ESPs just block it totally. There's been times where someone's sending me an email. It's like, nope, it's not here. We'll check your spam or your junk. It's like, nope, it's not in spam. It's not in junk. It's nowhere. You're getting blocked because either something in that message is blocking it. Or that email address is on a block list for some reason. Or it's not configured right, and so it's blocking it for that reason.
Speaker #1
That just, you know, sorry.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
That was happening a little while ago, and I couldn't figure out. We'd be sending out emails, and emails weren't getting to place, or people were sending us emails. And it just, the devil's in the details. And what I found out, going back, this is a while ago, but Google. Google Workspace, there are settings in there that you have to set up for your email that if they're not set up properly, the default settings will not allow the emails to come through or some that you're sending out won't be received at the other end.
Speaker #0
Yeah, there's also a lot of people don't realize this, but you should never put a bit.ly link or link shortener in an email because that's instant spam. and some block that. If they see some ESPs, like the company that actually delivers your email, it's like the postman, or post delivering your letters, it's the one that delivers it. If they see the Bitly link, for example, they just block it. It doesn't even go to your spam or junk. It's just like, nope, denied, delete, see you, goodbye. And there's also, if you have links in your email, I found this out in my newsletter. There was a period about two years ago in my newsletter I was sending out, and my open rates, And click rates just went down. I was getting like 50, 60%. You probably remember me talking to you about this. I was like, damn, I'm at like 32% now. I don't know what's going on. I got some bad names, bad leads, people, whatever. I finally figured it out. I was linking out to some articles. And one of these was on a big site, CNBC, I think it was. CNBC was on a blacklist. Anything linking to CNBC was on a blacklist. And so I had links in my emails that were going to sites that were flagged and they blocked the emails. So that's why like I never send to my current, what we do in Dragonfish, for example, is if for our warm clients, we're helping them send to their current customers. That's what that means. We have sending domains and we have landing page domains. So we have a domain that actually... there's no email ever goes out from that domain. All that domain does is host landing pages. That way it can never be on a blacklist. Well, it could be. I'm not going to say never, but its chances of getting on a blacklist are slim to none. And if we did something or we messed up somewhere along the way on one of the sending domains and it got on a blacklist, if we were linking back to that and the emails, it would affect everything. And so we actually separate it off. So if you're... If your domain is on, your main domain is on a blacklist and you're sending out emails from that domain and sending them back to your Shopify store on that domain, you might just be creating this round route, round robin of nothing happening and just stuff going into the ether. And so a lot of people don't realize there's a lot of little things like that that you have to know. And then when it comes to cold email, if you're going to, not everybody likes to do this, but some people call it spam. But if someone... if you target it right and people want to hear from you and that you solve their problem it's not really spam um it's just like when you get mail some people call junk mail and they're sorting over the trash can and there's one thing it's like oh here's 50 off uh your free pizza a free cube uh a coupon for free domino's pizza um no no no purchase necessary uh just call and it's only good on friday you know that's not junk mail to you you're like that's relevant to me uh I want to eat some pizza on Friday for free. So you have to think of it in those terms, not as in junk. So if you're providing cold email of people that didn't ask to receive a message from me, but they're in the market looking for something. They're like, they got a problem right now with headaches. There may be a woman in her 40s or late 40s, and she's going through menopause, and she's got these massive headaches, and she's going to Google, and she's typing, looking for a solution, or she's asking ChatGPT or Claude. looking for a solution, and you happen to pop an email into her box at that moment, or within a day or so of her looking for that solution, you're relevant. You're not spam. And so that's a key. But with cold email, the infrastructure is totally different. And you shouldn't mix the two. If you're going to do that kind of email, just for example, at Dragonfish, we have 18 domains, 18 different domains to send 1000 emails per day. Each is about 65, 60 to 80 email boxes on those 18 domains between them, not on each one, but total. That way they stay clean if one goes bad. There's a whole system to this, but that gets you 99% deliverability and 90% inboxing. Because you can have 99% deliverability, but 10% of them go to inbox, the rest go to junk or spam or promote. We've seen that. We've seen that. It never gets longer time. So you have to get delivered. That's number one. Then you have to get in the inbox. That's the second thing of those five I was talking about. So if you're not doing that right, don't have that infrastructure set up right, or you're using words in your subject line or bad links in your body of the email, then you've got to get it opened. So then you've got to know how to write a subject line and preview text. A lot of people don't use preview text. That's the little text that's kind of like a subheadline. It doesn't show up on all email. Like Apple Mail usually doesn't show it, but Gmail shows it. It shows that little kind of like a sneak peek of what's inside. It's either the first sentence of the email by default, or if you don't put anything in the preview text, but that can majorly help you get that open. Once you get the open, then you got to get it read. A lot of people don't know how to design emails. Everybody thinks that HTML emails, the pretty emails is the way to go. And you see a lot of marketing agencies making pretty emails. And they look like brochures or they look like something. That's great sometimes for like. beauty products or sometimes it's good to do that. But a lot of times it's not. It actually hurts your deliverability. It's better to do text. And you should split test that and see. But the text has to be right. So you got to get people to read it. And a lot of people do big blocks of text or it's not designed well. It's like, here's a paragraph that's like 12 lines long. Can't do that. One or two sentences per paragraph, three max, white space, spacing, emphasis on molding. The whole process that guides them through. So it's got, most people aren't going to read it. They're going to skim it. So you got to know how to do that. Then once you get the red done, the next step is you got to get a click. So if you can't get the click, you don't compel them enough. And whatever you're trying to get them to do, it's for naught. And the next step after that is you got to convert them. Wherever they click, whatever that landing page is or the store, you got to convert them. And any one of those breaks along that way, it's not going to work. And that's what we see. Norm and I have seen this, how many times we've seen this, Norm, over and over and over with people that, you know, in the Amazon space and the marketing space, they just don't, they don't understand how email doesn't work. It's like, well, no, maybe it's what you're doing doesn't work. It's not that the email doesn't work. It's just, you don't know, you know, I know how to drive a Toyota, but I don't know how to drive an F1 race car. So there's a big difference. Hey, Norm, do you know any sellers out there that are just burned out doing this e-com game?
Speaker #1
You know, I know a lot of people that have talked to us, you know, when we go to events. It's not only that, they don't know where to start.
Speaker #0
Who would you recommend they talk to?
Speaker #1
First one that comes to mind is Quietlight Brokerage. And here's why. They're going to build you up. They're going to understand your company. And at the end of the day, you're going to know how to maximize your valuation. So the very first thing you need to do is go and get your free confidential evaluation at QuietLight.com. They're going to ask a couple of questions. You're going to meet up. It's one-on-one with somebody over there. And then, you know, let the games begin.
Speaker #0
Awesome. What was that website again?
Speaker #1
It's QuietLight.com.
Speaker #0
Awesome. I'm going to head over there.
Speaker #1
I, uh... I've just seen, I saw this recently where somebody gave us an email to send out and I wrote them back and just said, this is not going to work. It was laid out completely wrong. It was, everything was wrong about it. And we did it. Customer's always right. Even though I tried to, you know, and the results were like I thought. So now they're allowing us to design this for them. And it's not just the email, like if it's going to a landing page. What does your landing page look like? What does your funnel look like? There's a lot more that we can talk about. But Kevin, can you just lay out those five items to make a great email?
Speaker #0
Well, to make a great email, you got to have a good subject line is number one. And the subject line has got to be relevant and get them to open. Not spammy, not trying to trick them, but relevant and get them to open. And then the... The preview text should back up. So you have to have good preview text. And so that should back up the subject line. And then the first line of the email is super important. It needs to basically confirm what the subject line says that, yeah, I made the right choice opening this email. And so that first line is super, super important to it's not how's the, how's the weather in Toronto? Uh, that's a waste. It's got to reconfirm whatever it was in that subject, subject line. And then you've got to have the space, the, the right. format. It's got to be skimmable and readable. Long emails can work. It's not the length of the email. Sometimes you need short, sometimes you need long. Is it skimmable and are the points drawn? A PS is one of the most valuable points of any letter or any email. The PS will get read after the subject line, maybe the first sentence. The PS will be the next most read thing on the entire email. So if you don't have a PS that reconfirms your offer, then that's not good. You also don't want to do CTAs or call to actions. You want to do call to values. So don't say shop now or buy it here. You want to say start your weight loss journey today or whatever it may be, not click here to get the GOP want to get your first bottle. You want to do call to values. Those are important. And in the way you word it, you want to get in the head of the customer and you want to So when they're reading your email, they're like, if you're special, if you're selling something, you're like, they're like, that's me. It's not about the features or necessarily even the benefits. It's like, what is this me? And what's the payoff going to be if I take the action to get this product or service? And that's what you've got to paint that picture. And with AI today, you can do that used to be, you have to have a $25,000 per letter copywriter. And there's some still out there. There's still doing it. I know a couple. I charge that much just to write a single letter or single email. And they're really, really good. But with AI, you can come close to that. But the problem is most people using AI to write emails, it's probably a better email than if you just sat down and write it yourself, but it still sucks because AI is the average of everything that's out there. And if you're not prompting the AI right or briefing it correctly, you're going to get mediocre average stuff, which is probably better. for most of you than what you could get otherwise. And that's why you see so much junk coming through. That's just like, oh, there's another AI thing, another AI thing. But if you know how to do it properly and actually use first principles as part of that and actually do the right research and feed it the right brain and have a good system that's taught off of like 30 years of experience and not just what AI says is the best thing in this case, the power is... of what you can do is crazy and that's what dragonfish has done so for dragonfish which is norman eyes email company we do we do warm email so we help you maximize your current list and like norm said we don't do it on your current domain we set up a whole new infrastructure that we know is clean and it doesn't have any past reputations and we build that and that way it doesn't affect anything and we also do cold so if someone's in the market for a magnesium this This woman that's in her... 40s in the market for magnesium cream because she's got headaches at menopause. We know how to find those people who are searching for that without them ever coming to your website, without them ever clicking an ad. We know how to get them and send them an email. And we send them an email that identifies with their problem. So it's not like, hey, our magnesium cream is the best. You get some headaches. This is help. We're so sorry. You're going through this. Whatever AI might normally write, the email is going to start out. It's Thanks. The subject line is going to be it's 3 a.m. and you can't and you're looking at the ceiling and can't sleep. Something to that effect. And someone's going to get that email and go, this is me. This is me. And the way it's wording, it's a soft sale. It 3x or 4x is the conversion rate. But the way we get that is we create 20. We have 22 different skills that create 16 different brains. And every one of these brains is... built before we write a single word. These are detailed. These are like, sometimes they're 45 page documents.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
They're called MD files or markdown files. And so we will go in and everyone is isolated and specialized. So it's kind of like having, you know, 16 specialists on your team. One of them is nothing about, nothing but, but about the brand and compliance issues. And, you know, the way that you, you talk. Another one is nothing but... about your competitors. And then another one is nothing about your competitors and the gaps. Where are the gaps? Where's the gaps that you can fill in on them? Then another one is called storm analysis. It's a Stanford level analytics. That's really great. Another one is first principles where our clients actually do run a prompt on their machine and give us the answer back that really personalizes and makes AI not average. Another one is AEO and SEO. We know exactly where the top phrase is. that need to be in the emails or on the landing pages. Another one actually builds landing pages. And we build five different landing pages for every email. And every one of those is a specific theme. So if it's a woman with headaches and the magnesium is the product, magnesium cream is the product, everything on that page is that woman and all about her problems. But magnesium cream can also be used for runners who have sore ankles. So we have another page that's all the pictures are nothing but runners and talking about sore ankles. So it's hyper-focused. and we create avatars and these avatars are not up, not like up. She's a woman that's 62. She lives in, uh, in Ohio and she has two dogs and a cat. We do all that basic stuff. You know, she drives this kind of car. And, but we also, these avatars are like 10 pages long. We go into the pain points related to the product. So in the product, the product might be like, uh, if I use this cream, what's my husband going to say? What is If I use this cream, why would I not use this cream? What are my doubts? What are my concerns? What happens if I do this and it's magical and it actually works? How's my life going to improve? And we have like 20 reasons on each one of those. We do a thousand pain points on every single one. We do all these, every one of these is a different brain. It just keeps going on and on. We do one that's a quiz on and on and on before we write a single word. And once we write these words, then we use the AI to actually help us create these. We guide it. Humans are always in the loop and guiding it. And it creates amazing stuff. And because we have the infrastructure sound, and because we have the copy and the process sound on the other end, the results are ridiculously good. And so nobody's doing this. Most people you hire and someone to come in and do your email marketing, they come into your Klaviyo and they do what's called your welcome flow. Like this first time a customer gets on your list, you send them a special... series of emails to welcome them to the family. There's nothing wrong with that. You should be doing this. Or it's an abandoned cart. Maybe you abandoned the cart. You put something in your cart and didn't end up paying for it. Send them an email. Or maybe it's out of stock and stuff like that. Those are good flows, and that's what a lot of people do. They help you write your Black Friday, Cyber Monday email. And all that's great, but that's not what we do. We can help you with some of that, but that's not what we do. we Set up a whole system on the side and maximize it like I just talked about. That's, I mean, you've seen Norma, the stuff, and we developed all this stuff. And the people that we've shown it to when we get on a call and we actually take them kind of under the hood and show them the pistons, they're blown away. They're like, I've never seen it. People have been doing this 17 years. I mean, at Market Masters, you talk to a couple of people there that do Klaviyo email marketing. They're like, one of them is like a gold star email. market.
Speaker #1
One percent.
Speaker #0
The top one percent for Klaviyo. And what, you know, what was their reaction?
Speaker #1
Yeah, they loved it. They couldn't believe it. And hopefully we can partner.
Speaker #0
Yeah, if you're listening. But yeah, so it's, that's where, and AI makes it so you can do this now. This would have been in the past to do it at this level. We've taken some expensive copywriters, we've taken a whole team of researchers and people to do this. And now, It can be done. It's still a lot of work because you guys know how to set up that infrastructure. You got to know how to create these brains. You got to know how to write these sequences. You got to know how to do all this flow. But we take it even further than that. When we send out an email, the first time we send to somebody, we don't just say, OK, at 8 a.m., send this email to 10,000 people. The first time we send it, and usually our email sequences are like three. So there's a part one, a part two and a part three. And the first one doesn't. it gets triggered and it gets triggered not by 8 a.m. local time. There's tools out there like OmniSend. You can send it 8 a.m. local time. So I get it 8 a.m. Texas time. Norm gets it at 8 a.m. Eastern time in Toronto and someone in London gets it at 8 a.m. UK time. So it's consistent. You know, if you want it at breakfast, there's tools that do that. Those are great. But what we do is we send it the first email when you're in your inbox. So maybe that's 826 or maybe that's three o'clock in the afternoon. Because what happens is when you're in your inbox, you're the most attentive. And so if you're in your inbox checking, looking to see what came in that day, or maybe you're looking for a specific email, that's the moment you want to pop in there. Because in that moment, when an email pops to the top, you're 10 times more likely to see it and three times more likely to open it. And so what that does is it trains Gmail and all the other service providers out there that, hey, this is... They wanted to get this email. They opened it pretty quickly. It must be something important. So let's flag this email that just came from Kevin and Norm as important. So the next time one comes in, don't put it to the junk, put it to the inbox. Because obviously it's something they really were eager to see. And then it helps the whole sequence down the road. So there's things like that. And there's other things that we do on the intent side, where if we got that person that just searched for, they're having headaches, migraines at night, and... We're going to send them an email unannounced and just saying, hey, we got the solution. But we're not going to come in and say, we know you're going to do that 3 a.m. storytelling thing I told you. What we do before we send those people is we put them through a whole bunch of filters. So we know when we capture that person that just searched, we take that email address that we captured anonymously. Totally legal. Nothing illegal about this at all in the United States. We captured it, and we actually put it through, and we see, has this email been opened in the last 30 days? If it hasn't, then we don't send anything to it. And then we also, if it has been opened in the last 30 days, have they clicked anything in the last seven days? If they have, we give them a gold star. And then we'll see how many times do they appear in the database that they're searching over the last 30 days. And if they got more than one time that they showed that they're looking for something to solve their headache problem, they get another gold star. And we filter that down. Then we clean the lists. And we put it through 28 different points. So, like, do they hit that mark a spam button a lot? We know that. ESPs report that to databases. We know if there's a spam trap. We know a whole bunch of other things. So we clean the list. And we end up at the end of the day with a pretty pristine email list. That's filtered to the people most likely to respond because they got those two gold stars. And that's who we email to, to sell your magnesium cream because they can't sleep at 3 o'clock in the morning. And it's very, very effective. Hey, Kevin King and Norm Farrar here. If you've been enjoying this episode of Marketing Misfits, thanks for listening this far. Continue listening. We've got some more valuable stuff coming up. Be sure to hit that subscribe button if you're listening to this on your favorite. podcast player, or if you're watching this on YouTube or Spotify, make sure you subscribe to our channel because you don't want to miss a single episode of The Marketing Misfits. Have you subscribed yet, Norm?
Speaker #1
Well, this is an old guy alert. Should I subscribe to my own podcast?
Speaker #0
Yeah, but what if you forget to show up one time? It's just me on here. You're not going to know what I say.
Speaker #1
I'll buy you a beard and you can sit in my chair too. You can go back and forth with one another. Yikes But... That being said, don't forget to subscribe, share it. Oh, and if you really like this content, somewhere up there, there's a banner. Click on it and you'll go to another episode of the Marketing Misfits.
Speaker #0
Make sure you don't miss a single episode because you don't want to be like Norm.
Speaker #1
Oh.
Speaker #0
And that's the level that Dragonfish does that I don't know anybody else. in the industry. I don't know if you ever heard anybody, Norm, that does anything even remotely close to this level.
Speaker #1
No, I haven't heard. And everybody I've talked to, nobody's heard about this at all.
Speaker #0
So, I mean, the board, I've been talking for a while here and explaining Dragonfish, but I just want to make a point. You don't have to use Dragonfish. I mean, you just understand that email is massively powerful. It's... It should add 30 to 40% to your gross. So if you're doing $10 million a year right now on Amazon, let's say, and you're doing no email and you've got a list of 30, 40, 50, 100,000 names and you're rarely sending them anything, you're leaving several million dollars on the table, literally. Several million dollars on the table. So start doing something. Hire somebody to start sending some emails, start checking your system, start some of these tips that I've given you. uh and norms talked about and i've talked about start implementing some of those or if that's not something you are comfortable or you don't have time to mess with that go to dragon.fish and take a look we have a calculator there i mean you can like play around with the calculator put in your margins put in uh how often you want to mail and you can get an idea of how much profit you can make after you pay us what we charge and after your cost of goods You can see that, oh, no, this is not going to work. I'm going to lose $1,000 a month. Or you can see, oh, I can make $17,000 extra profit a month. Go play with that.
Speaker #1
Yeah, or you can book a call.
Speaker #0
And then book a call. If you're like, I don't understand how this thing works, or you just want to learn more or have questions, there's a book a call button there, and book a call with us, and we'll get on and explain it to you. What am I leaving out here, Norm, about email? I mean, it's ridiculous how powerful it is, and it just boggles my mind how misunderstood it is.
Speaker #1
Very misunderstood. A lot of people go by their own emotion. I don't like receiving it, like we talked about at the beginning. So nobody likes it. But that's so wrong. Definitely leaving 30, 40% on the table. So what I would do is just Check into it. See what you're doing. If you're just going out there and doing the old add to cart or, you know, just a follow-up or post-purchase email, that's one thing. But there's so many other things you could be doing. So check us out if you like. Oh,
Speaker #0
there's two other things, Norman, we didn't even mention. Before we wrap up here, we can also do what's called IP resolution. So when people come to your website, We can identify between 40 and 70 percent of them without them even signing up. You get some javascript you put it on your page and we can identify the people and then we can take that data and create all kinds of demographic stuff off of it and avatar so you know who's who's visiting your site you know how to better target your ads on facebook or on amazon or wherever and another thing we can do is if those of you that are selling on on amazon or walmart you know you don't get your customer data they protect that they don't share the email addresses for this Physical addresses with you. We can help you. We have something called Marketplace Capture. We give you a special QR code to put on your packaging or inside your box or on your labels or on your plastic wrap or whatever. And that helps people will scan that. About 5% to 10% of the people that order from you will scan it the way we do it. And it takes them to a page that gives them a discount or something on their next order. It's totally... TOS compliant. There's no review manipulation or anything like that going on in there. And then we also put the IP resolution on there. So we capture quite a few people and you can build a list really fast. So those are just two other things, among many others, that we could help you with.
Speaker #1
All right. Well, I think we're getting close to having to cut this off, Kev.
Speaker #0
Yeah, I could keep talking about this forever. So if you want to talk about it with me and Norm or someone on our team more. Go to dragon.fish, check everything out, and hopefully we can answer specific questions for you.
Speaker #1
All right. And if you want to hear more Marketing Misfits, go to YouTube and check out for the long form Marketing Misfits podcast, short clips, three minutes and under, Marketing Misfits clips. And we're also over on TikTok, just Marketing Misfits. And Kevin, we've got a newsletter.
Speaker #0
We do. Misfits.News. Every Wednesday, a brand new newsletter comes out highlighting the best of the podcast, current and past. So check that out at Misfits.News.
Speaker #1
All right. So that's it for today. We'll see you next Tuesday.
Speaker #0
Take care, everybody. you

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