Transcription

• Speaker #0

  I always say marketing is you talking about you, but PR is other people talking about you. And I always want other people to talk about me because it's so much better, not only for traditional SEO, but also for how brands are now being recommended by AI. There's such a higher bar and so much trust built around a magazine mentioning you, whether it's a listicle or top gifts for dad or gifts for moms or pet lovers. That is the highest trust signal that we can build. give the machines something to pull from. And so that's really what I help founders do every day is how can we get visible? How can we create content and get onto those magazines, get on the radar of these editors who are writing these gift guides so that you not only meet the consumer where they are when the buying intent is high, but also you are giving AI visibility something to pull from.

• Speaker #1

  How are you doing?

• Speaker #2

  Well, I'm more excited now than ever. I can get back into my podcast studio, so I can have the same background as you. I'm not a misfit.

• Speaker #1

  You've been going ghetto on us the last several episodes, looking down there in the dungeon or wherever you're at over in Canada.

• Speaker #2

  Yeah, it's kind of a dungeon.

• Speaker #1

  It's your second man cave, right?

• Speaker #2

  Exactly.

• Speaker #1

  Roast man cave. Dave is outside with your dog, Dallas,

• Speaker #2

  smoking cigars. Yeah. He gets into every photo. I don't know if you noticed that.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. If you notice, Conan gets into quite a few of mine, too. So for those of you that are wondering, what are you talking about photos? Norm and I, there's a WhatsApp group that we have for cigar smokers and where we post photos of different meetups and when people are smoking different cigars and kind of, you know, like make each other jealous. sometimes uh so that's what that is um but you're doing you know you've been doing uh and a lot of people know you for a lot of different things but one of the things you you've done for decades now is pr press press right i mean you've been doing that since the dawn of aquarius i think i think it has been yes the dawn of aquarius yeah i am a pr fossil yeah and you still have a pr company that helps do some uh some ai and stuff but today we've got a guest that's you do it a little bit differently than what you've been doing and is really helping people get out there into gift guides on television and to a lot of this stuff and not only is that important for branding and perhaps getting some sales but it's also super important now for credibility and authority when it comes to AI and being the answer in AI and our guest today she does a lot with Shopify a lot with DTC and is one of the top specialists when it comes to helping brands and get out there. So it's going to be good.

• Speaker #2

  All right. So let's bring her on. Gloria Chow. Come on on. There we go. Hi.

• Speaker #1

  How are you doing?

• Speaker #0

  So happy to be here.

• Speaker #1

  So you, we were saying PR. So I see even here, if you're watching this on YouTube, you see Gloria's got her word PR. What is that? Like PR press release or what? What is a press release or what is what is press?

• Speaker #2

  Just a sec, Kev. But PR. Always gets mixed up with public relations. And people get the two mixed up. I don't know if you found that, Gloria.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, I mean, I always say marketing is you talking about you, but PR is other people talking about you. And I always want other people to talk about me because it's so much better, not only for traditional SEO, but also for how brands are now being recommended by AI. Right now, the game is not how many followers can I have or how can I go viral? It's how can I be there at the point of discovery where people are actually using ChachiBT? to one-click checkout, right? We know that AI is a new storefront. And so the brands that are going to succeed are the brands that understand how to be discovered on these AI platforms where shoppers are going, you know, minute by minute, like it's exponentially increasing every day as we speak.

• Speaker #1

  So doing that is not just writing a press release and putting that out there. A lot of people think of that as like, well, just writing press releases and putting that on the quote-unquote wire or whatever, but it's a lot more involved. So what is actually involved? in, in what you do?

• Speaker #0

  So, I mean, PR is many things, right? I think it gets kind of blurry and muddy because there's a lot of the pay to play kind of schemes where, you know, you get a DM that's like, Hey, I'll feature you in a random, you know, 40 under 40 or disruptive innovators. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about earned media. When you're not paying someone to write about you, to include you in a gift guide, like in Oprah's favorite things or in Vogue or Marie Claire, that's really essentially what I help founders do is how can we be there with credibility and authority because anyone can buy an ad, anyone can pay to play. But there's such a higher bar and so much trust built around a magazine mentioning you, whether it's a listicle or top gifts for dads or gifts for moms or pet lovers. That's really going to be the thing that the algorithms, the AI, Claude, Perplexity, Gemini, ChachiBT, that's what they're pulling from. That is the highest trust signal that we can build to give the machines, what have you, something to pull from. And so that's really what I help founders do every day is how can we get visible? How can we create content and get onto those magazines, get on the radar of these editors who are writing these gift guides so that you not only meet the consumer where they are when the buying intent is high, but also you are giving AI visibility something to pull from. So if you think about it this way, I always say people scroll to browse, but they ask AI to decide. And it's absolutely true. And there have been studies and empirically, like the data tells us. that AI converts four times better than any other organic platform. I'm not even talking about a paid platform, which converts even less. I'm talking about- 4.7. 4.7. Yeah, exactly. So other than your best friend or your sister or brother whispering in your ear, telling you what to buy, there is no higher converting engine than AI recommendations. And there has never been throughout history. And we're at a really interesting juncture because if you look at any other platform of commerce, who are the ones that get seen? It's the people who are the most popular, right? If you have the most virality or the people who pay the most. But right now you cannot pay your way to the top of ChatGPT, Perplexity, Clotter, Gemini. And so this is like, has never happened before. And so I always say small brands right now who are listening, you have just as much of an edge as big brands with big budgets, because you can't pay your way to the top of being chosen, being recommended. And if you just follow the simple steps, which I'm going to share. You're going to be able to very likely get to the top of those search results when someone is typing in, hey, I need a homecoming, a housewarming gift, or I need a Father's Day gift. And, you know, Chachapiti, I think right now is processing close to 600 million shopping inquiries every single day.

• Speaker #1

  Hey, Norm, I've got a quick question for you. I'm trying to manage all my affiliate and creator programs from Amazon, from Shopify, from Walmart, but it's just. a freaking mess. I mean, I've got reporting coming from here and there's all these different Slack messages. You know, if there's like a unified dashboard where I can do this all in one place.

• Speaker #2

  Yeah, absolutely. And you're right. It is a mess. A lot of brands are complaining about that, but there is a place that has a solution. It's called Levanta and they let brands recruit partners, track performance, manage payouts, send product samples, and even run creator programs across every major marketplace, all in one place. And guess what? Brands can spend less time on tools and more time making profit.

• Speaker #1

  Is that the one that you sent me a link for, like a 10% off coupon or gold or enterprise plan a few days ago?

• Speaker #2

  You got it.

• Speaker #1

  Oh, cool, man. I think I've got that link here. Was it levanta.io slash misfits?

• Speaker #2

  Yep. You got it.

• Speaker #1

  L-E-V-A-N-T-A. dot IO forward slash misfits. Awesome. I'm gonna go, go hit them up right now and get that 10% off.

• Speaker #2

  Perfect. Me too. When you were talking about, PR, you'd mentioned gift guides. You mentioned listicles, but are you still sending out, traditional, press releases going through the wire?

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. So, so press releases is what I called. owned media. So it's media that you own, that you put out there. It's still media, right? And it's not paid media because you're not paying for an ad or you're not paying to play. And so it's good, but it's not as good as the earned media where you are being talked about in a gift guide or top 10 skincare creams or, oh, I tried this viral, whatever, like beauty thing. We have a lot of beauty founders. So that's really kind of like the hierarchy of it. And again, in terms of trust signal, the earned media will always have the highest reach. It's going to be... the most long lasting. If you look at your Instagram reels, they last for what, 24 hours. But if you get a backlink, if you're in an article that could be there for many, many years. And so I really think that like, there's no higher leveraged activity as a founder than to figure out how can I get into those gift cards? How can I get into a magazine that has a high domain authority, like a Marie Claire or a Forbes or a Buzzfeed or a golf magazine. And that's going to drive traffic and credibility and eyeballs to my website, even while I'm sleeping. And that's really the real flex right now.

• Speaker #1

  There's two things there. At one point for another company that I had about 20 years ago, we hired a PR. agent basically and we paid her five thousand dollars a month and she would get us on like the howard stern show back when he was uh on regular radio when and it every time that would blow up and e was actually filming those so e television we by default have been on the howard stern on radio we'd be on e television and those would get replayed so that was that was like massive exposure but the only way she got that was not because we paid because she had a relationship So a lot of times, like with the Oprah stuff and some of these that you're talking about, it's all about the relationship that whoever's in the middle, either you personally or someone in the middle has. And then on the flip side of that, now there's companies like Wayward and some others that actually have relationships with some of these big, you know, top end gadgets and some of these top sites wired. And there's several of them, but they actually will feature you in a top 10 list if you pay to be in that top 10 list. Or if you're... if you're an affiliate or if they can do an affiliate deal where they actually will make money that way. So what's the difference in those and what from what what you do?

• Speaker #0

  So I don't do any pay to play. I don't do any kind of you need to have a relationship. All of my founders are very scrappy solo founders. They're pouring candles and selling them Etsy or they're making jewelry. So they don't have existing relationships. And I have to tell you, every single one of them have gotten featured and they don't have a relationship existing. Right. So So I think... being a regular on a show like Howard Stern might be very different than getting your product on, you know, the best, you know, best of list. And so you don't need the relationship per se, because there are journalists, writers, bloggers, writing these lists every single day, they're turning out content over and over. And there's no way for them to know every single founder who has a product that they're featuring. So I would say the relationship, you can build that relationship, but it's not a prerequisite to get featured. None of our founders have have known these people. And so that's why. the art of cold pitching and understand seasonality, which is what we're going to talk about. Finding the angle, finding the way in is so important because journalists are still getting their inboxes flooded with cold pitches from people they don't know. And they are looking for fresh voices. They don't want to feature the same old, same old all the time. And so in their quest to discover new products, because that's what we entrust them to do, right? To recommend new products. We're actually, you're doing them a favor by putting your name in the hat and saying, hey, I have this product. And so I absolutely do believe that cold pitching works. It's how I've built my community, built my business. And for someone who is an Amazon or a Shopify or an Etsy seller, you absolutely can get featured if you know how to position your product the right way for the right season. And I think a lot of people just simply don't know that.

• Speaker #1

  I was going to say, it doesn't help a reporter out, though, do some of that. I mean, they help a reporter out. A lot of like Amazon, Etsy sellers, people are doing gift guides, holiday guides or whatever or something about. pets, they'll actually post and help a reporter out, put it under and then came back. And then you can submit to them. And like you said, there's a lot of times they'll feature products they've never seen or never even used in some cases.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. So that's 90% of how most people will go about it, right? Using a free platform like Haro, help a reporter out. But then there's so many other writers that are looking for products. So if you make a wellness product, you can pitch to a wellness editor or a wellness writer. And so that's a whole blue ocean that a lot of founders don't even realize that's open to them. So I would encourage you not only to sign up for Haro, but to practice the art of cold pitching and actually reach out to the writer who writes your beat, whether it's sportswear, whether it's food, whether it's pets, whether it's family, whatever that is, because they're absolutely looking to cover new products all the time.

• Speaker #2

  Yeah, we've talked about gift guides quite a bit, and people really don't realize how many bloggers or blogs. blog writers or journalists or whoever can get you into a gift guide. And like you said, it's not, it's not necessarily pay. A lot of these gift guides are free and want your content.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, exactly. I mean, if it's paid, it's not editorial. And so they would have to put, you know, this as an ad. And you talked about affiliates earlier. Affiliates are not technically paid. Affiliates is you give them a link. And if someone buys through that link, then they get a commission, but that's very different than paying. to be featured, right? So if you're paying to be featured, it's not going to get the SEO juice or the AI trust signals as you would if it's organic, if it's earned. And so that's why everything that I teach is about how can you reach out and get into those magazines, even if you don't know them, so that you can get those valuable backlinks and give AI such a strong trust signal that AI is going to recommend you when someone is typing. AI is picking winners and losers right now. And so the people who are getting those gift guides, getting that earned media, they're the ones that AI is going to surface next season. And so we're in this closing window of opportunity where a lot of people haven't even really caught on to it yet. They're still trying to go viral on TikTok. We're still trying to write 100 blogs. But the real game is how can I get on as many organic, trustworthy sites where people are writing about me, whether it's a writer or a blogger, so that I can feed the AI algorithm so that I am at the top of those AI results.

• Speaker #2

  I know a lot of sellers right now are just kind of hanging on the edge of their seat. So how do they even get started?

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. So, I mean, there's a mindset part and then there's like actual how do you do, right? I think for decades, we've been told that we need to know someone, right? To be able to get features. That's simply not true. You don't really need to know the writer to get into a gift guide. They're writing them all the time. So as long as you know that you have a shot, then you're going to take it. Now let's talk about how do you actually get your product in front of a journalist? Or what do you even say, right? And now with a tool like Perplexity.ai, which is, by the way, the best research tool that I use, it's replaced by Google, it finds the angle for you. So Perplexity is better than ChatGPT because Perplexity is the best insight-gathering trends tool. So it scrapes the internet for real-time information, and it tells you what editors and consumers are looking for. Because editors and writers are looking for what consumers are wanting, right? They're just going after trends. And a lot of times I think products... People are like, oh, I have to do something groundbreaking. And you don't need to be groundbreaking. You just need to be relevant. And so what is relevant, right? It could be if you have something that's perfect for the season. It could be weather. It could be a holiday. It could be a graduation gift. It could be something that's Q4, stocking stuffers, gifts for her, gifts for him. And there's evergreen all year round things where it's like jewelry for your anniversary or gluten-free baking materials. So it's not just the holidays and the seasons and the weather. It's also what can you. give to consumers to solve a problem all year round. And a lot of times, product owners just are too close to their product. And a tool like perplexity.ai, which is free, by the way, you can literally type into it and say, hey, here's who I am. Here's my website. Please scan it for context and imagery. Please look at all of my SKUs. And please tell me, what are the winners that I should pick this season to make it most compelling to get into a gift guide? Give me some insights, data points that I can tie into my pitch. Boom. Perplexity with an under one second gives you five to 10 positioning angles of how to make your product relevant to what editors are looking for, which solves the biggest problem, which is what do I say or what do I write right now? Perplexity does all of that for you. Perplexity finds the angle. And then you can say, this is the second prompt I would put in there and say, can you please put all of these angles in a comparison chart so I can see the ranking from most to least likely to be featured? Boom. Perplexity then puts it in a beautifully laid out chart. of most to least likely to be featured in editorial earned media, which is not pay to play, with the actual citation, the angle, the trend, and what to include. And it basically writes the pitch for you. So perplexity takes you from all the way from ideation to finding the angle to writing it. Whereas like you would be paying a, you know, agency three to $5,000 for the first month just to be brainstorming ideas. Perplexity does it for you in under five minutes. And so that's really the biggest change that's happened to PR is that now we have tools. like Perplexity that tells us exactly what editors are wanting to cover this season.

• Speaker #1

  Do you find Perplexity is better than Manus? I think they're both good, but I find that Manus a lot of times, because they're both current as well. Some of the other tools like Grok, the data is not up to date, versus Perplexity and Manus are. But I found that Manus is actually sometimes a little bit better. I use them both. And Manus is sometimes actually a little bit better at finding And... That deep research type of stuff. And especially, I think there's another step that maybe you were going to add to what you just do. Once you come up with the topics and then the angles, you need to know who do you need to pitch that to. And Manus is really good at uncovering the exact contact information of who you actually need to pitch it to. I mean, you can use the tools like Apollo and some of the other tools out there to find a lot of these riders. But a lot of times off their byline, it can actually pick up that stuff. mask and making it a really good, chart and it can actually go through. And what I've had to do is actually say who's written about this the most or who, you know, that, that type of stuff or who, what's an angle that they, they've written about. Obviously they write about, you know, dog treats or something and they've done, but what's an angle they haven't written about on dog treats. And then I'll, and then, then I'll, I'll have it researched that. Do you do anything along those lines?

• Speaker #0

  So we don't really use manners. I feel like the learning curve is a little bit higher than perplexity. Perplexity is great for. what we needed to do it gives me the citation it tells me the exact trend you know according to vogue business searches for catch all summer totes increased by 40 right we have someone who makes totes so perplexity is free and it's great and it's simple and it's easy to use so perplexity has has been really helpful for my audience so

• Speaker #1

  once you've got this are you how is the pitch formulated so you're not actually writing a full article or are you are you writing hey uh mr uh reporter. uh our product you know this is trending now our product does this this and this uh we'd love to talk to you love to give you more information or what's the how is that struck had that pitch structured

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. So for five years, I became known as the pitch writing expert, right? So I created my CPR pitching method, which is credibility, point of view, and relevance. And I taught this for five, six years to thousands of founders. But now all the AI is trained on it. So you can literally type into Perplexity or ChachiBT, write this pitch using Gloria Chow's CPR method. And it'll give you a framework of the pitch. Now it's not perfect, right? It's not really a writing tool. And so that's why in our PR accelerator. We have plug and play prompts that makes it like super airtight on how to format it. But in general, you want to have a subject line that's not gimmicky or kind of like clickbaity because a journalist is going to be like, what is this? This is spam. You don't want to put your name or the company name or the word pitch. You want it to almost be like an article. So for example, you know, best stocking stuffers for dad under $50 samples available, right? That is a perfect subject line. It tells the journalist exactly what it is, the category. And the reason why you want to write subject lines like that is that journalists later then go back to their inbox if they are tasked to write a story and they do a quick search and you want to be able to appear when that story happens, right? So the subject line has to be specific. It has to be detailed. And then when you start the email, a lot of people don't know this because obviously we're not trained to write to a journalist. We're trained to sell our product, but you don't want to get into like your whole life story and like five paragraphs about how you hiked to this mountain and then you got this idea. So what we want to start with right away is the relevance, right? Why does it matter now? So relevance can be like, you know, as a certain trend is taking place or as a certain consumer behavior is changing or as we approach Valentine's Day, whatever that relevance is, again, perplexing helps you find that relevance, right? You can put in like a stat or a quote, and then you kind of go into three or four bullet points about why your product fulfills that relevance. So whether it's, you know, people are looking for summer or grilling essentials, here's why this is perfect, or... Mother's Day bundles for wellness, right? So that usually is in the form of, you know, three or four bullet points about your product. And then you would conclude with a little bit of credibility, maybe like where it's found, if you've been featured anywhere, if you haven't, you know, have been awarded anything. And then you want to include hyperlinks. Don't make super big attachments. It's going to just like go into their spam. But you want to be like, here's a price point. Here's where it's shipping. Here's more info. And, you know, this is where you can find it. You know, you want to tell them all the things you want to Cross your T's and dot your I's. So that it has all the information that the gift guide editor or writer has needs to be able to just run with the story without back and forth. So that's usually pricing. That's usually shipping. Whether or not you have an affiliate link. You know, if you're doing like if it's like limited quantity, for example, if you're doing a special limited edition drop, for example, and then the website where they can find it. Right. Is it on Amazon? Is it on your own website? And then whether or not you're willing to give samples. So those are kind of really the things you need. in the pitch to make it really solid for the editor or writer to be like, okay, great, I can run with this.

• Speaker #1

  Does the affiliate link actually increase the chances of them running it?

• Speaker #0

  A lot of times they do. So like for Dot Dash Meredith, which is a publishing house, they own Marie Claire, things like that. They tend to prioritize brands with affiliate links, but it's not a 100% requirement. And we have a lot of founders who get featured without an affiliate link or selling on Etsy and they don't even have their own. website they're selling on etsy and they still get featured but for some of the big magazines they are tending to favor that now how much time do you have to do these to get for like mother's day or father's day or something how far in advance do you actually need to start this process to actually get ahead of it i would say like around like six weeks because if you do like you know four to six weeks because for digital they can do like really fast turnaround and last minute gift guides if it's for prints where you're like actually like reading it you know that's going to take a lot longer, like six months. But for most of what we're doing now with our founders is mainly digital because it gives you the backlinks and it's searchable, right? Searchable by AI. So that's really what we're focused on. So for digital, it's usually anywhere from six weeks and beyond. So you don't want to do like too many months in advance.

• Speaker #2

  What are some of the mistakes these companies are making?

• Speaker #0

  Well, I think the mistake is stuffing too much into the pitch. And then writing to a journalist like they would write to their customer. So like, here's a brochure, here's an order form. But that's not really packaged in a way that journalists are going to be like, why is this relevant, right? So you really want to pick like the two or three max standout items. If you have 60 different SKUs, Perplexi can help you find the one or two, three things that are perfect for this season. Or even if you just have one SKU, how do you repackage it for different things? For example, we have someone, you know, who makes home decor items. And she got on. multiple gift guides for different angles. One is for your best friend that you miss like hell. One is for Mother's Day. One is for the newly divorced friend in your life. And it's the same thing. You can have one type of product, but then repurpose it for all different angles. And it absolutely is possible.

• Speaker #1

  So on the repurposing for different angles. You're saying perplexity will actually give you those angles in your research, right? Or you might know them just naturally from your own customer reviews or your own customer stuff.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. So you can put in like, you know, usually my gifts are perfect for X, Y, and Z season, but can you find other opportunities, you know, where I can pitch my product? And perplexity will do the work for you.

• Speaker #1

  How much do you need to flatter the journalist? Like, does it help if you actually put stuff like... I know you've written about this story because you wrote this story before. I know you love dogs or anything. Is there any kind of flattery or showing that you've researched them or that you actually care? It's not just a basic form letter. Does that help or is that not that important?

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, I feel like, you know, not so much flattery, but just showing that you actually care. So, for example, you know, if you really want to get into Vogue or like a magazine that has, you know, it's really hard to break through. It would really go a long way if you said, hey, I really loved your. gift guide for new moms. I bought this, you know, for my friend. She loved it. If you're writing one this season, I have the perfect product for you. So it could just be like one or two sentences. Don't make it super stalkery. And then, you know, just like a lot of journalists now are on Substack and they actually tell their subscribers like, hey, now I'm writing this story for Home and Garden or I'm being tasked to write about this for Forbes. Here's how to pitch me. And so they actually want to favor people who are in their Substack subscribers. give them the PR opportunities first. So Substack is an absolute goldmine for following these independent freelance journalists who write for many different places, but they all cover the same products. And so that's also really awesome too. It's like that's a new tool that is available for us as consumers, as founders.

• Speaker #1

  Hey, Norm, do you know any sellers out there that are just burned out doing this e-com game?

• Speaker #2

  You know, I know a lot of people that have talked to us, you know, when we go to events. And it's not only that, they don't know where to start.

• Speaker #1

  Who would you recommend they talk to?

• Speaker #2

  The first one that comes to mind is Quietlight Brokerage. And here's why. They're going to build you up. They're going to understand your company. And at the end of the day, you're going to know how to maximize your valuation. So the very first thing you need to do is go and get your free confidential valuation at Quietlight.com. They're going to ask a couple of questions. You're going to meet up. It's one-on-one with somebody over there. And then, you know, let the games begin.

• Speaker #1

  Awesome. What was that website again?

• Speaker #2

  It's quietlight.com.

• Speaker #1

  Awesome. I'm going to head over there.

• Speaker #2

  A lot of companies could never get the research to get earned media before. And I'm talking about small to medium-sized sellers. They always depended on ads. But now, couldn't you lean more on the earned media than putting out money for ads?

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, I mean, we have people who stopped all ads and social media and is just writing on the SEO of all of her 25 different features. We had someone who made two sales the other day on Claude because she was featured multiple times. And this absolutely works, right? Your ads are not being pulled into any consideration of... how AI is featuring you or not. And if you're invisible, then you basically don't exist. And so it's really important to know what AI is looking for. They're absolutely looking for trust signals. And ads are just not a trust signal, at least not in today's world, if you're trying to get AI visible.

• Speaker #1

  Couldn't you game it back on what you were saying where researching the writer? So if a writer wrote a story on the 10 best new lipsticks of 2026, and I sell lipstick, instead of me pitching out and say, hey, the next time you write a story, about lipstick, I've got one you might want to consider because of X, Y, and Z. Instead of doing that, have three or four of your friends over a week's period or something message them directly. Hey, great story on lipstick. I just want to remind you there's one you missed on the list and it's X, Y, and Z, which is my lipstick. And then that way, there's like, man, well, quite a few people are actually mentioning this. Maybe I should actually check this out. And then they either check it out and contact you directly or then you A week later, you just happen to be in their inbox and, oh, this is the one I've heard about. Is anybody doing anything like that, playing the psychology game to actually get press on unearned media?

• Speaker #0

  I mean, I think it's all relationship building and staying top of mind. So if someone can orchestrate that and have the level of organization to do that, I think it definitely could help if it's genuine. But if it comes off as like, oh, this is definitely like a scheme or a strategy,

• Speaker #1

  then save it. Yeah, you have to do it right. You have to do it right. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, for sure. You don't want to spam it. I don't know. That just came to mind. I was like, okay,

• Speaker #0

  I could see people,

• Speaker #1

  people might, might do this. So when it comes to the AI side of things,

• Speaker #0

  So a lot of people, we find that when it comes to AEO and GEO, they just don't want to make the investment. They're like, well, yeah, I just did it. In the case of paying for a press release, I just paid $800 for a press release and I didn't see any sales. I got one sale. Or the effort that it takes to do your stuff and then, yeah, I got featured on here and it really didn't generate that many sales. But then all of a sudden, one of them generates a lot of sales. So how do you know which one actually is going to be really worth your while and which ones are... you're just throwing darts against the wall and hoping it works? Or is it just a game of throwing darts and some works and some don't?

• Speaker #1

  Well, if you look at all the things that you can do to drive traffic to your site, ads, social media, blogs, everything, they're not really doing the sales for you, right? What they're doing is they're bringing the customer to you at the point of discovery. But nothing's going to be as trustworthy or credible as PR. So if I only have, you know, so many hours in the day, I'd rather put my eggs in the basket where it's actually giving me the backlinks, it's actually giving me that sustained traffic. And it's giving me that visibility after that 24 hour mark. And that's PR. So I think a lot of people conflate those things, right? It's like, oh, well, I didn't get sales right away. It's like, okay, well, maybe it takes people multiple touch points to understand your brand before they buy. But nobody knows exactly like that direct attribution. But we absolutely know that if, especially if you're a smaller brand, that credibility is even more important because people are going to be like, well, why do I, why am I going to buy from you as opposed to a bigger, more trustworthy brand? especially if it's something you're putting on your... body or your face or ingesting?

• Speaker #2

  It was a couple of years ago, not a couple, probably four or five years ago. I was working with this larger client and once in a while, maybe three months, every six months, his sales would go up by a hundred thousand bucks every month or during these specific months. Couldn't figure it out. And then one day we figured it out. Wire cutter. They were featuring us in the best pillow of the... whatever that month was. And sales went up $100,000 during that time.

• Speaker #1

  Incredible.

• Speaker #2

  It's crazy.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, it absolutely works. And the thing about the Wirecutter is that it's such a high domain authority website, right? It's giving you such a push, it's giving that person such a push for any search engine, whether it's traditional SEO or AI search. So it just, it compounds more than anything that you'll do. And that's really, when people say work smarter and not harder, like that's That's just it. This is working smarter.

• Speaker #0

  So in your prompt on perplexity, when you said you're ranking them, do you actually have it say which of these should I concentrate on first because they have a higher backlink authority that's going to influence the AI more if you're able to actually crack into it?

• Speaker #1

  Well, you don't actually decide which one gets featured. You first start with your pitch, and then you try to send it out as many as possible.

• Speaker #0

  I still have, but I'm saying... But do you actually put a little bit more effort or more and more concentration or give a little bit extra love to the ones that have a higher page rank or a higher authority? Because you know that if you get in one of those, it's going to influence the AI even more than, you know, the small local newspaper or something.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, I mean, I absolutely would. So that's where that compliment that, you know, trying to figure out, like, how can I show them that I care? How can I engage with their content? How can I subscribe to their sub stack? And it might take a little bit longer to build that relationship. But once you do, you pretty much, you know. have them in your back pocket because, you know, they're going to want to refer you over and over. And the thing about AI is not just like one and done. So it's not just like, oh, you get one Forbes feature and that's it. They want to know that you're consistently being talked about on other people's websites. So it's that consistency that matters. I think a lot of times we're like, oh, I need to only get into Forbes or Wirecutter, but there's so many other medium tier blogs and websites that if you consistently get on them, that's also going to push you further and further higher in the rankings.

• Speaker #2

  It sounds exactly like building the relationship with a influencer or creator. You've got to do those exact steps.

• Speaker #3

  Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  When someone comes to you and they're an Etsy or Amazon or Shopify brand and say, okay, I've heard of you, help me out. What's the first thing you do? Are some products or services not appropriate for this? It doesn't matter what you're doing. It's all appropriate. Like on TikTok shop, for example, there's some products that are TikTokable and some products that really aren't TikTokable. Is there anything? like that when it comes to this method?

• Speaker #1

  Well, I guess my question is like, well, are you making sales? Do you make something that is suitable and that people like? And if it's true, then if you are making sales, that means that it's validated. So then we just need to dial that up and we need to get it in front of more people because there's always a niche market for everything. There's somebody that makes cat crocheting things and that's a viral market. There's so many cat lovers out there. So I wouldn't say that just because you make something niche. it's not going to get featured. There's so many blogs and things. It's just, do you have a customer base, right? And then how can we get it out to more people? What kind of things are they reading? What kind of platforms are they on? So how can we reach out to those editors and journalists who can actually spread your message to way more people than just you talking to someone on TikTok or Instagram?

• Speaker #0

  When it comes to influencers, a lot of people, they think that I need to be on the, I need to get the Kim Kardashians of the world to actually promote my product. In your case, it's, you know, like the, like the Oprah Winfrey's or something. But a lot of times those can be great at times, but a lot of times it's in the small ones. The guys that have a group of 500 subscribers or a thousand subscribers that are all needlepoint, needlepointing cats, cats or something like that. And if your product's appropriate to that, it's, that's much better to get featured or written about there than it is some of the big ones. Steve. Do you see that as well?

• Speaker #1

  I mean, if you have, you know, $500,000 to hire Kim Kardashian to do it, then do it, right? But for my audience, they're scrappy, solo entrepreneurs. So, you know, paying an influencer is really out of their range. And so how can we do it in a way that honors our story as well, but then gets it out? And so that's really how I help them do it, right? If we not only give you the perfect pitch prompt that's modeled after me teaching this to hundreds of founders, that gets your pitch written perfectly. We have a database of all the journalists that you can pitch it to you. And I actually bring in those, you know, gift guide writers and editors to come in and meet you. We had someone from Today Show, you know, who did a segment and she featured two of our founders. One of them sold out in just one hour. One hour. You know, or bring someone in from Wirecutter, actually, because she's a friend of mine. So, you know, I bring them the access. I give them the community and the coaching. And that's really how we help them inside of our PR accelerator.

• Speaker #2

  When you're reaching out to these journalists, Do you follow up? And if so, how many times before you become a pest?

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, I think that's a good question. So before you send any emails, install an email tracking device so that you know if your email is being opened. If so, how many times? I use a simple software called MailSuite. It's pretty cheap. It's like 60 bucks. Or if you have Klaviyo or HubSpot, it can do the same thing. But basically, you want to know if your email is being open. If it's not being open, let's fix that issue first. out of office issue? Is it a subject line issue? Is it a deliverability issue? Let's fix that first. If it is being open multiple times, it means that the journalist is interested. They just are looking for a place for it because they wouldn't click on it multiple times unless they were interested. So that's when you would go in and, you know, you know, engage with them and say, Hey, I loved your article on this, this and this, or, you know, just kind of, just kind of nudge them, but don't be like, you know, Hey, following up, Hey, following up. Like every time we follow up to something new in that thread, maybe it's a compliment, maybe it's a connection, you know, maybe it's new content like, hey, we sold out of this colorway or... Oh, we're debuting this thing. So you kind of want to refresh it one or two times, but then keep that same thread. So that way you're not annoying.

• Speaker #0

  How often do you find that you need to actually send an actual physical product sample?

• Speaker #1

  I would say a lot of times you do because a lot of these, especially at these like, you know, like a place like Wirecutter, they're not going to recommend something that they haven't tried themselves, right? Because that's really what makes them really ethical. But the thing is you don't have to send out. a crazy amount of samples, right? You can decide. And if they want a sample, you can say, you know, yes or no. So you can say samples are available and it's up to you to decide if you want to send it. And if you make something really expensive, like, you know, if someone who makes like a very expensive skincare serum, you can give them a small sample. It could be like a small mini size. And that's totally okay too.

• Speaker #0

  Do you do this just in the US or do you do Canada, Europe, Australia, any other places? Yeah,

• Speaker #1

  we have, we have small business owners, founders from all over the world or in Australia. One, you One person in Australia, the one who just made two sales on Claude, she makes these like Lego figurines based off of your photos. Melanie from Australia. And so she got featured like 23 times since since joining the accelerator. And now people are just coming to her. So we have people from from really around the world. But I would say most of our audience is English speaking because that's, you know, that's how I coach. That's what that's the platform that I use. So mainly English speaking, a lot of Canada, some Australia, some Europe. mainly in the US. So it kind of trickles all over.

• Speaker #2

  Is there a combination or a way to combine AEO with PR?

• Speaker #1

  Well, so my specialty is really geo, right? Like how do you get found on the AI systems? Like how do you get ChatGPT to recommend you and Claude? And we know for a fact that they're pulling from press features. I know a lot of people say, well, what about Reddit or what about blogs? And it's not to say that those don't work, but they just don't work. as strongly as a PR feature.

• Speaker #0

  But you can go and you can find, there's tools that you can actually get a basic idea of what people are asking. And there's basic ones like answer the public. It's not really not AI, but Neil has a version of that that's more AI oriented. And so if I'm doing a press release and I'm actually writing it and I'm sending that out to try to quote unquote, people call it rank and you don't really rank on AI, you become the answer. But to actually answer a certain question, they will gear that. press release or that that that tactic of post on reddit like you said towards answering that question versus when you're when you're doing it the way you're doing it you're you're giving up a lot because the writer or whoever's featuring is going to do it in their way So are there ways that you can try to influence that a little bit or it's just a numbers game and get 23 like your person in Australia and it just starts adding up and covering all angles?

• Speaker #1

  Well, we want them to write it because they're the ones that have the editorial authority and the credibility. Right. Because there's also contributor articles where I'm writing it, but that's a lower tier and that's less trustworthy than if an editor or a magazine writer was writing about me.

• Speaker #0

  I know I understand that. But when you're trying to actually become the answer in AI. you need to know what people are asking. So like your Lego person that does these Legos, what did you say, with pictures on them or whatever, and she got two sales, does she have a way of knowing what they actually asked to get those two sales?

• Speaker #1

  So nobody knows. Nobody can know that, right? Because everybody's way of prompting is different. But we know that if they're looking for this category, if they put in whimsical gifts or whatever it is, it's going to pull from how she... talks about herself on the website and how she's cited in the article. So when she's writing the pitch to the journalist, right, it's going to have one or two sentences of how she introduces herself. And that's also going to be consistent on her website. And so the more, the more interlinking, you know, messages that you send, the more AI will be able to say, okay, well, she makes these figurines. This is perfect for a children's gift or a wedding gift or, you know, depending on, depending on what that is. But she's not really reverse engineering necessarily, because again, everyone's prompt is different.

• Speaker #0

  So I think that you just answered the question. The way to do it is on your own website, you have the FAQs or you have the stuff that's, we call it AEO, you call it GEO, they're very similar. You're answering those questions there and then the AI is finding it on your website and go, well, okay, here's the answer, but is this a credible answer? Should I include this in my response? And oh, wait, here she is. She's on 23 different press releases, this company being mentioned by these people that carry weight with authority. There must be a... a pretty good answer. So I'll therefore feature it. So that's how you can actually, by optimizing her site for the types of questions that AI was looking for the answers to, and then by backing that up with the authority of all the press, I think that's a good one to punch that could actually hit a lot of angles.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, I think for products, though, it's not as involved, right? It's just like, if you make a skincare serum, then you just want to be featured as many times for that. So when people are typing in skincare serum. you can be at the top of those results. Yeah,

• Speaker #0

  but when they're typing in skin care serum, they're not just typing in skin care serum. They're typing in a certain pain point. They want that skin care serum for a certain reason. I mean, some people are always saying, what's the best of the year? And being in one of those articles, that's going to help you. But if it's something, I have an issue going on in my arm, I need that solved, it needs to drill down more to the product that actually solves that, rather than just going, these are the 10 best of the year. Which may. Right.

• Speaker #1

  Oh, of course. Yeah. So your formulation, your ingredients. Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  That's what I'm saying is that you can answer those types of questions on your website that are the deeper, longer tail questions that someone might ask an AI. And then what you're doing on the press side validates that that website should be trusted, therefore surfaced as the answer in AI, which then it's a circle. I would think that would be how I would be trying to optimize that.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, I mean, you're always trying to create an interconnected web, right? So like you want to link back to outside and then they want to link back to you. And so the more webby it becomes, the more of an indication. So that's why you want to have your pillar blogs and you want to like link and you also want to have a press page that then links out to where you've been mentioned. So there's, again, like you said, this kind of circular mentioning.

• Speaker #0

  When the press page gives you authority, it gives you authority, too, by putting those logos and that stuff there. Yeah. That didn't see you in the press. They're like, oh, this is trusted by Vogue. Must be good. norm i forget my question so who's doing this work who is actually is it the founder typically because you said they're scrappy or they have a va doing this or this this could be a full-time even with perplexity itself there's going to be a lot of work to just organize all this and and babysit this or

• Speaker #1

  Now they're doing it on their own. Everything's AI enabled. And now with, you know, Cloud and ChatGPT workflows, it becomes super easy because we give you the prompts on exactly how to write the pitch. We tell you who to send it to, right? And then you just use an email software and start sending. You track your opens, you maybe tweak a little bit, you know, for your top ones. And then you engage with their content. So yeah, it takes time to know who they are, but you know, we're making it easy and organized and delivering it in a way that's just like very, very systematized because the AI now... does all of the hard parts, you know, it brainstorms, it writes a pitch. And so that used to be the hardest part, which is like, well, how do I even, what do I even say to the journalist?

• Speaker #2

  I'm just waiting to see if Kevin's going to interrupt me. Okay, so can we list, and I still think there's a lot of people out there that don't really understand earned media and what are the different types. So we've talked about the gift guides. We talked about listicles. What other types of earned media are there?

• Speaker #1

  Well, there's TV. There's you being, you know, like an expert source on like a Forbes or a Business Insider, or it could be your local hometown, you know, magazine and TV. So for me, like earned media is anything where you're not. paying that person to write about you. And so it could be top tier, it could be mid tier, it could be local, it could be national, it could be digital, it could be print.

• Speaker #2

  And there's been a lot of, and I'm talking about on the influencer side, again, these automated programs and apps that you could use and you hit a button and it goes out and every influencer knows that it's just an automation. Are there things like that out there and should we avoid them?

• Speaker #1

  You mean for PR? Yes. I don't do a lot with influencers because that's more like paid media. A lot of influencers want to get paid. But I will say that if the way that I teach it, because traditionally a PR agency, if you pay them, then they own the relationship. And the moment you stop paying them, they leave with those relationships. And so it's really important for me to equip and empower the founder to go after the relationships themselves by sending those pitch emails from their own email and following up from their own email. So that way they have power, they have control, they have agency, and they're completely can see the the process, you know, transparently.

• Speaker #0

  How many people give up? How many people like they come in and like, okay, I've sent out 20 of these and then nobody's responding to me. Is it a game or sometimes you just, you just got to keep going. And then once one does it, others see it. It's kind of like getting in. Once you're in Walmart on the shelves of Walmart, then it's easier to get into Costco. Well,

• Speaker #1

  that's the thing is that. PR features will absolutely get you into retail. There's a lot of the times they're looking for, like, that's a question they'll even ask on the form, like, have you had press features? And so that will help you pitch to retail and wholesale. And we had a lot of people do that as well because they're leveraging their PR, you know, and a lot of the retailers want to see that are you really going to get people in the stores to buy your stuff? Can you advocate for yourself? And PR is a big part of that. So it absolutely works. I mean, with anything in life, right? I think it's hard being a founder of a physical product. I mean, there's so many different challenges that we face. And so it's not just about the time or the effort, but it's also this unnatural thing. Like a lot of people don't, there's a new way of doing PR that we're doing. We're really kind of, you know, rewriting the rules of PR. Again, traditionally you go through an agency or you don't get featured. And now there's this third way that we're doing. And so it's new, but it's really about reminding people that they don't need permission. It's reminding people that, you know, they absolutely deserve to be seen just like. just like the big brands. And so a lot of it comes down to belief more than anything, because the journalists are looking for new products to feature. They're writing gift guides all day, every day. And if they're not going to feature you, they're going to feature someone else. And so a lot of the stuff that I do is really mindset work. But I will say that with the right mindset and the right tools that we give them, we don't really have people giving up. Instead, we have people, you know, we have people getting featured in 24 hours, right? Because we find these opportunities for them on Substack. And all of a sudden, they're so confident. They're like, Oh my God, like, this is amazing. This is so much more than just a quote unquote side hustle. And so it's building that confidence and it really, the ripple effects are amazing throughout the rest of their lives.

• Speaker #2

  Is that the unicorn? Somebody getting picked up in, you know, a couple of days or a week?

• Speaker #1

  No.

• Speaker #2

  Or is that fairly normal?

• Speaker #1

  No, for the people who enter into my accelerator, average time to feature is less than two weeks, right? Because like there's so many blogs and opportunities and people like freelance writers writing about products all day, every day. You just need to know where they are. I think a lot of times. No one has made it accessible. The PR agencies don't really tell you this. They kind of gatekeep everything.

• Speaker #0

  Hey, Kevin King and Norm Farrar here. If you've been enjoying this episode of Marketing Misfits, thanks for listening this far. Continue listening. We've got some more valuable stuff coming up. Be sure to hit that subscribe button if you're listening to this on your favorite podcast player. Or if you're watching this on YouTube or Spotify, make sure you subscribe to our channel because you don't want to miss a single episode of the Marketing Misfits. Have you subscribed yet, Norm?

• Speaker #2

  Well, this is an old guy alert. Should I subscribe to my own podcast?

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, but what if you forget to show up one time? It's just me on here. You're not going to know what I say.

• Speaker #2

  I'll buy you a beard and you can sit in my chair too. And we'll just, you can go back and forth with one another.

• Speaker #3

  Yikes

• Speaker #2

  But that being said, don't forget to subscribe, share it. Oh, and if you really like this content, somewhere up there, there's a banner. click on it and you'll go to another episode of the marketing misfits.

• Speaker #0

  Make sure you don't miss a single episode because you don't want to be like Norm.

• Speaker #2

  Oh, so let's talk about your, your accelerator. It's a course.

• Speaker #1

  So it's not a course. It's an accelerator. It's community. So we give them the plug and play prompts that's perfectly formatted so that it's ready to send every time. We give them immediate database of every single journalist they should target based on their niche, you know, so that way they know what to write and who to write it to. They have unlimited support from me, a community that they can also access. And then they actually get to meet the journalists that I bring in, people who love covering small businesses, people from Today Show, people from, you know, Forbes, Wirecutter, Business Insider. Marie Claire Cosmo, who I have cultivated relationships with, and they actually come in and coach our members and they actually end up featuring our members every time they meet them. So it's really the connections, the coaching, the contacts, everything a small business needs to be able to get featured on their own and not spend a lot of time. We have a lot of single moms in the program, right, who don't have a lot of time to do this. And so everything is AI enabled now where even if you're not a natural writer, right, our prompts have made it so much easier for you.

• Speaker #0

  So it's a one-time fee or a monthly recurring subscription?

• Speaker #1

  So you can go to getfeaturedaccelerator.com. So it's a six-month access right now, six months. And we have calls every single week. Some of them are on AI and generally what's happening with AI visibility. Some of them are with journalists. And some of them are just like co-working calls. And then you can not go to any of the calls and just look at the everyday PR. We have this daily thread of all the PR opportunities. At any given week, I'm posting anywhere from 50 to 70 different... product opportunities that I scour the internet for. So that's a combination of Substack, of LinkedIn, of journalists that I follow, and then also Haro. And I kind of consolidate them in a very organized way where you can just, you know, control F and see like what fits your category and start sending. We give you the prompts for that too. And it's right now, it's pay in full one time, $19.99, or there's a bi-weekly payment plan of just $175. And that's it. And I've made it very accessible for small business owners because my whole... platform, my home values and mission is about creating access.

• Speaker #0

  Do you find though that everything should be about pitching a product or your product or sometimes the store, the pitch be about the founder or about their story and not really about a product? I mean, there's a, there's a brand here in, in, in Austin called Rhino that was on one of the normalized, Ted was on one normalized trips that we, we organized entrepreneurs. And this is a nine-figure brand now that started on Amazon with $50,000 and it's grown. And they just had a big feature story done because they're building a 180-acre theme park for outdoor. They sell the clamps and stuff at the back of your truck and stuff for outdoor equipment and outdoor riding. And so the whole story was not so much about, hey, this is about our product. It mentioned the brand was all about how they've grown and how now they're… um, doing this big, this hundred acre, like a park, you know, theme park, theme park around there around it is do a lot of things people think it's, do they get that mixed up? A lot of the sellers was like, Hey, I just need to sell product versus like, sometimes I just need the publicity. Um,

• Speaker #1

  I think it's both. I think if when you're just starting off, maybe you just want to get as many eyeballs on your product, but once you have a really big business model or you've, you know, made some impact, then, you know, that's when you're at the thought leadership comes in. So we do have people. who have been in Forbes and who have, you know, been in Business Insider talking about, you know, what they think. And so we have someone who makes, for example, a subscription box. And so she was featured on Forbes, an article called The Rise of Curation and how like these subscription boxes are booming, right? So at any given point, yes, you do have both angles that you can pitch. And that's where podcasts are really powerful as well. And we teach people how to get onto podcasts too. But just keep in mind that, you know, your business should be at a certain level when you are pitching yourself to those things. But I think in the beginning. The gift guys are a much easier way in, you know. And then as you kind of grow in your business, then I absolutely think you should get into the podcast. You should talk about your point of view about your industry because at that point, you're really a thought leader. You're really an expert. And it's really about you predicting what's going to happen or kind of talking about the impact of, you know, X on Y, whether it's AI or what's happening. So you definitely can have both options available to you.

• Speaker #2

  So, Gloria, I know you're short on time. You have a hard stop in a couple of minutes. How can people get a hold of you?

• Speaker #1

  So I'm on Instagram at Gloria Choupier. That's Gloria C-H-O-U-P-I-R. If you DM me the word misfits, I'll give you an additional freebie so that you can get one step closer to getting featured for free, getting into a gift guide so that the AI will recommend you. And then I have a free PR masterclass that outlines exactly how to prompt perplexity. I show you in a live screen share. It's super easy. You don't have to be like a prompt engineer or anything. You can watch that for free. at GloriaChaoPR.com slash masterclass. I've had so many people watch it and get featured like right away. So that's definitely worth it. Because again, no one's doing PR like this. This is really kind of a new way of doing PR.

• Speaker #2

  Oh, that's fantastic. So I do have a question. We always ask one question of our misfits. Do they know any misfits?

• Speaker #1

  So my friend Kurt Elster, who hosts unofficial Shopify podcast, he has a great Facebook. He has a really big audience. He's always talking about what's happening specifically with Shopify because they're always kind of changing things up and they've done a lot of stuff around AI and stuff. So he would be great to have an information with.

• Speaker #2

  All right. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show today. It was awesome. Good stuff.

• Speaker #1

  Awesome. Yeah, I'm in a lot of masterminds doing like my workshop where I actually pick people from the mastermind live and we actually do the prompting on perplexity on a screen share and their jaws drop. So I'm very used to doing like live workshops as well. And I'm happy to do one or a few for your community as well. They're usually around 35 minutes and then we leave time for Q&A.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, I have a couple of things there that might be good, but I'll reach out to you separately. on that.

• Speaker #1

  Well, thank you so much, both. And if you ever come to New York, let me know. It was such a pleasure. Thank you for having me.

• Speaker #0

  Thanks,

• Speaker #2

  Gloria. See you.

• Speaker #1

  Bye.

• Speaker #2

  Bye.

• Speaker #0

  You know, Norm, that's an interesting take. I think a lot of people overlook what Gloria just talked about.

• Speaker #2

  Yeah, absolutely. And again, people get mixed up with public relations, press releases, what's earned media, what's paid media. So I think people are going to learn a lot from this podcast.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, I think now, especially with AI, like she said, you just have to pay $3,000, $4,000, $5,000 to someone to do that. And it would take a while. Now with AI, you can do a lot of this either yourself as the founder or get one of your assistants or something to stick them on this. And I can see how it could be very powerful if you have the right prompts and the right system, which it sounds like she does. Speaking of very powerful, There's something else that's very powerful. And that's if you listen to every episode of the Marketing Misfits podcast, right?

• Speaker #2

  Yep. If you listen to our podcast, well, if you want the long form or the short form, you can head over to YouTube and just hit Marketing Misfits podcast. And that's for the long form. If you're looking for three minutes and under, you don't have a lot of time. Just head over to YouTube and it's Marketing Misfits clips. That's it.

• Speaker #0

  And they're also on the TikTokers too, right?

• Speaker #2

  They're on the TikTokers and we have a new newsletter that you can get at Misfits, not Marketing Misfits, Misfits.News.

• Speaker #0

  I hear it's pretty good. Have you checked it out yet, Norm?

• Speaker #2

  I think I've checked out one or two of the articles in there. Yeah, yeah, it's pretty good. Actually, we've got a lot of great feedback from it. People love it. It's a different format than most newsletters because it's good. And it doesn't suck.

• Speaker #0

  That's because we have good guests to pull from and we have your brain to pull from on stuff, especially when it comes to cigars. And there's even a little section in there about, you know, Norm's humidor. So it's always, always good. And then there's something else that's coming up here soon, too. And well, it's six months, I guess, in February. What's happening in February, Norm?

• Speaker #2

  Oh, that's that's a special little treat. Okay, that's Collective Mind Society, and it is CMS for cigars and whiskey by the sea. And this is where we take out any cigar enthusiasts. You don't have to be an aficionado. You could be a beginner who just likes a cigar. You want to sneak away from your spouse. Come on along. We did this last year, and we're doing it again because it was such a success. It's a small group of people, 15 people at most. And we just have an absolute blast. So head over to collectivemindsociety.com,

• Speaker #0

  right?

• Speaker #2

  Dot com.

• Speaker #0

  And the other name for this is Candyland for Norm.

• Speaker #2

  Candyland for Norm. Yes, that's it.

• Speaker #0

  Hey, I'll see you again next week, right, Norm? Absolutely. All right.

• Speaker #2

  Cool, man. Okay. We will see you later. Take care, everybody. Bye.