Transcription

• Speaker #0

  One of the crazy things about AI is that there's something called the Dunning-Kruger effect. When you don't know anything, you think you know a lot. And the more you learn, the less you think you know. Until the very end, when you actually know a ton, you're like, yeah, I kind of know a little bit. The problem with AI is that it makes everybody way overconfident. If you're successful in e-com, it can be, and oftentimes is, very isolating. When shit hits the fan, does anybody around you understand what happened? And that isolation can lead to a lot of feelings of depression, anxiety, and then it leads to a lot of addiction too. There's a lot going on in the space that we gotta make sure that we're caring for each other, that we're sharing things that are appropriate to share in terms of, you know, how to stay sane, how to stay happy, how to have a good time, how to make some friends along the way.

• Speaker #1

  Norm, I've got a question for you. Do you still have that Super 8 projector that was up in the closet? It has all those little films and the little canisters. Do you still have that?

• Speaker #2

  I think I went through school for film and cinematography and we shot everything in 68 and like Super 8. So I had to have the camera and 16 millimeter.

• Speaker #1

  I'm talking about the ones that were for like, what was it? Her name was Debbie or something.

• Speaker #2

  Yeah,

• Speaker #1

  and should we have those? Do you still have those up in the closet?

• Speaker #2

  No, I've got Kevin in Austin. Oh,

• Speaker #1

  jeez. Keep that in the closet. We'll never let that one come out. That's for sure. You know, our guest today is a pretty cool dude. Not only because he moved to Austin, where all the cool people are, and your wife won't let you move here, Norm, so you're not... You're not part of the cool people yet, but he actually flew to Nashville. I had an event in Nashville in April, a big event, and he came out for the event. But he came a day early just to have a cigar with us. That's what he told us. That's what he says. That's what he says. He's probably there on some other business.

• Speaker #2

  Probably got a hottie on the side.

• Speaker #1

  He's all about mindset and stuff. So he's just like, you know, let me get into their heads and I'll just tell them that. But he came out and we went to... a little lounge and sat there for a couple hours and it was great. I learned a lot about this guy. I'm like, dude, you got to get on the podcast as well.

• Speaker #2

  Yeah. And that's, again, it's the best thing about cigar smokers, right? That's the cigar culture we always talk about. You could just sit down and talk to anybody. And yeah, it's fantastic. I love it.

• Speaker #1

  Well, you know, I almost did that, Norm. I thought of you the other day. I live on Rainy Street in Austin, which is a busy... I'm on the very end of the street, and I was driving... Down the street, coming back, and outside one of the bars, there was a table. And at this table, I looked, and I looked twice, and the third time, it was a bunch of cigars. And then around the table was like four guys sitting out in front of this bar, in like the little yard area of the bar, smoking cigars. And then this week, I saw it again. Just like you said, instantly, I'm like, I don't know who these people are. I have no clue who they is, but I saw... Twice now that they get a little table there and three guys were sitting around smoking cigars and I instantly I feel comfortable to go up to him and hey and talk to him. That's what cigars smoking does for the people that are anti. And like you said, our guests today. So what is it about cigars, Norm?

• Speaker #2

  I think it's the ability to sit down, relax and just either just get into your own mind or. Just talk about, just not be afraid to approach somebody. You've already got something in common. We never start off by talking business. It could go down that path, but usually it's talking about something completely. We don't, you know, people are not saying, oh, this is how much I make. It's, if anything, it's give to get. I mean, there's been so many incredible conversations that we've been in cigar bars and we've had, we've had. We've met so many incredible people that have even been on this podcast, multiple people that have been on this podcast. So I don't know what it is, but it's like a fraternity of brothers and sisters. There are a few female cigar smokers out there.

• Speaker #1

  That's true. So why don't we bring him on? I mean, our fellow cigar buddy, he said he's going to come on the next CMS trip. I don't know if he's going to do it. He might have just been blowing smoke up our dress. But he said... That's a first. your dress i don't wear dresses i was talking about you so let's bring them on let's do it well hey guys what's up drew little johns welcome to the show man oh

• Speaker #0

  thank you very much i actually have an answer for you about the cigar thing by the way it is the sociological answer but it is real and it is called ritual humiliation From a sociologist, mythologist named Mircea Eliott, and what he actually said was the idea of virtual emulation is that when we all get together and we kind of imbibe in this kind of smell, this kind of stench together, kind of like a bunch of people in AA where we all get together and say, hi, my name is Drew, I'm an alcoholic. Everybody gets, your status gets removed. Hierarchy gets removed and what's left is community. And so when you get into a cigar bar, all that status, all that hierarchy. and how many businesses you've exited, how many people are just getting started. None of that status matters. And all of a sudden, you're just a couple of dudes talking. And that's the magic of things like cigars. And so, yeah, when I met you guys at Prosper, I ran into Norm. Norm was like, come smoke a cigar with us. I think it was at the Venetian, right? Came out, had a cigar. And I thought, you know what? I'll bet these guys are going to be having cigars the night before this event in Nashville. And I did fly out a day early just in case that actually happened. And it did happen. And we had a great time.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. So why does that happen, though, with cigars but not at a bar?

• Speaker #0

  Okay. Why is that?

• Speaker #1

  I go to a bar with my buddies.

• Speaker #2

  Completely different atmosphere.

• Speaker #0

  It does happen at a bar. What happens outside the bar with the people standing in the crown of the circle smoking a cigarette? You don't have a friend at a bar. Go outside, bum a cigarette, stand in the circle, smoke a cigar or smoke a cigarette with the guys in the circle and go back in. You've got a whole circle of friends instantaneously. There is just something that is magical about that smoking ritual experience that...

• Speaker #2

  doesn't happen in the context of like a standard bar over drinks necessarily i like what you said about just stripping away that status because we've gone in kevin when we met rafael nodel he didn't know who we were and he just you know now we whenever we see him and he's he's a huge brand owner and the owner of um monte cristo uh uh monte cristo lounges you But he just treated us like we were just one of the boys. And I've gone to a couple of cigar shows recently and meeting these legends in the business. And they just put you under your wing. You know, you can start talking to them. I've emailed a few. They get right back to me. And it's just, it's phenomenal. And you don't, it doesn't matter if you're sweeping the floors or if you're a CEO of a Fortune 500 company. It all gets stripped. I love what you said there, Drew. And I wonder how that applies to marketing.

• Speaker #0

  Well, how did, okay,

• Speaker #2

  I'll tell you exactly how it applies. How do you think I got onto this podcast? How do you think I got on the stage in Nashville? Right? It didn't happen. I mean, I did slip.

• Speaker #1

  There was that suitcase of large bills.

• Speaker #0

  There was. There was. And that ASIN with, you know, 4.8 star ratings, you know, 9,000 reviews. You can turn it into anything you want. No, but at the end of the day, this is one of the best ways of networking is to get into places with people. I was homeless when I first started my Amazon brand. I mean, I had worked my way up and I was living in the basement of a church when I was younger and wound up kind of working my way up through it. And I found out along the way that your network, and this is a classic thing, but your network is your net worth. But at the end of the day... If you sit together, where you vibe, that's your tribe, right? It's one of the things my dad always says. And one of the things I love about cigar smokers is you don't have to know everything. I like kind of pansy cigars. I like a good Connecticut. It doesn't have a big buzz. It's not some beef. You know what I mean? Norm likes to get really weird over there with his Freud cigars, you know? And I'm over here with my little dainty blonde and it's fine. And I like it. But man, being able to sit down and just being able to draw in that network because now through you guys i was able to hang out with dan kurtz for an entire night and i know that if i need some ael help i know exactly where i go because we sat down and we smoked cigars right uh seeing with paul raffleson um at you know bdss i wound up like hanging out or or in a e-com and ai right wound up hanging out with all these guys smoking cigars that wasn't a better investment into marketing myself 12. to have access to marketing, right? Not just like the actual nuts and bolts, but like the really building a foundation. I can't think of a better way to do it than with cigars. You know,

• Speaker #2

  we had at that Kevin's event in Nashville, we had a Marketing Misfits event the same time. And about 70 people came out. And people were coming up left, right, and center who didn't even smoke cigars, but just enjoyed the overall culture again. of getting to know people. And it's a little different. This place had great ventilation. So that's a plus. I can see why some people wouldn't want to come out. But the same thing, got to meet people, got to know a ton of people I didn't know, and now I'm in contact with them. Yeah, so cool.

• Speaker #0

  This is this is the idea of the liminal space, the space in between spaces. This is where you get to know people in the statusless environments. So getting a chance to go out and make your own whiskey like Kevin, you help facilitate that experience. or norm when you were able to go into a studio right and you were able to get to have that experience in nashville when you guys are facilitating these experiences the conference experience especially in the diamond and platinum level experiences that you guys are offering These are places where all that status gets stripped out of those relationships are unbelievably easy, not only to create, but you're creating something that's like summer camp for grownups. You know, you're just making friends that somehow you remember them for years to come. And I think that's one of the best investments you can make in your personal development, not just in marketing, but in how you're actually growing as a business owner. You know what you're going to do after you exit. Right.

• Speaker #1

  Hey, Norm, I've got a quick question for you. I'm trying to manage all my affiliate and creator programs from Amazon, from Shopify, from Walmart, but it's just a freaking mess. I mean, I've got porting coming from here and there's all these different Slack messages. You know, if there's like a unified dashboard where I can do this all in one place.

• Speaker #2

  Yeah, absolutely. And you're right. It is a mess. A lot of brands are complaining about that, but there is a place that has a solution. It's called Levanta. And they let brands recruit partners, track performance, manage payouts, send product samples, and even run creator programs across every major marketplace all in one place. And guess what? Brands can spend less time on tools and more time making profit.

• Speaker #1

  Is that the one that you sent me a link for, like a 10% off coupon, their gold or enterprise plan a few days ago?

• Speaker #2

  You got it.

• Speaker #1

  Oh, cool, man. I think I've got that. link here was it levanta.io slash misfits yep you got it l-e-v-a-n-t-a.io forward slash misfits awesome i'm gonna go uh go hit them up right now and get that 10 off perfect

• Speaker #2

  me too yeah you know one other thing is so i met a a new cigar buddy uh that's in canada And he invited me up to his place on the weekend. So I went up there. And from that connection, there's another guy close by as well. But just this week in our little cigar group, so the Cigar Boardroom, there's been four or five people that joined, Canadian, that it was word of mouth. And now it's so cool because during our last podcast, Kevin, he was just texting me saying, hey, I'm in town. And we're going to have an event next Sunday up at my place. All these guys are invited. you All of a sudden, there's a cigar event happening up in the boondocks where I live.

• Speaker #1

  So how does that relate to e-commerce sellers? I mean, e-commerce sellers go through a lot of stuff, Drew, that a lot of other people don't relate to. We really can't talk. If you're selling on Amazon or Shopify or Etsy or wherever, it's difficult to talk to your friends and families about what you do. And the ups and downs of being an entrepreneur. And you said you emerged out of a... homelessness and started you when you started your brand and have grown and now you've you're running this eight nine figure brands and advising people and doing all kinds of uh cool stuff what what is it about that that draws people it's almost like the cigar analogy where you're instantly

• Speaker #0

  have a connection with these people yeah um well one of the big things that i've noticed coming into the e-com space is first of all it is a It is still the Wild West, right? I mean, everything changes so quickly underneath your feet. And one of the big things that we don't really pay attention to or talk a lot about is the relational component that we do need to have. I remember the first time I met somebody, I'd never even met another Amazon seller. And I think at the time we were doing maybe seven or eight million a year or something. This is in 2021. And I never even met another Amazon seller. And it was like, I always felt so weird because when I would tell people, hey, we're an Amazon seller, it wasn't until like 2019, 2020 that people stopped saying, are you selling books? Right? Like nobody, like everybody just assumed that we were, and it was like, Amazon is a thing. It was, it was an established brand. But then as we started moving forward and things started changing, you know, when, when, when your listing goes down from an algorithm change, right? or amazon just removes 80 000 to cost of goods inventory or things get stuck in tariffs Now, these are things that your average friend down the street has no idea about. The average guy that you're maybe you're on the same little league team and your kids play baseball together. And, you know, he's talking about the stock market and you're talking about, you know, trying to get a hold of your Amazon SaaS rep because you have an escalation problem. And he doesn't understand anything. I mean, you go to try to talk to your therapist. You're like, well, what's going on? You're like, well, you know, they have no idea what's happening. Right. I've got everything's being held up at my 3PL and, you know, ship fusions, you know, not releasing it. And I've got a hazmat issue because my lithium ion has the wrong amount of grams in the battery component. Like, oh, my, just in the weeds. And I think a lot of times as a seller, you can get so in the weeds with your products and in the weeds with, you know, your fulfillment. And if you're not careful, you're not careful. This can be a very isolating thing. Right. learning, sitting there with the algorithms or trying to figure out how to both market your product and be an authentic seller, right? You want to be able to sell the most units, but you also want to be as authentic as possible. So I think that there's a lot of psychological experiences that e-com sellers go through specifically that a lot of normal kind of more traditional business owners just don't really deal with a whole lot. I think there's a lot of anxiety. and a lot of stress around being an e-com seller, especially being in such a dynamic environment all the time. And so that's something that I've been talking with a lot of people about over the last few months is just, you know, how do you emotionally stay grounded while at the same time you're trying to push and trying to capture as much ground as you possibly can, because you don't know how long you're going to have the, you know, you're going to have it. How long are you gonna have this this current algorithmic edge or this marketing edge before people start ripping your product and running with it or what have you. So there's a certain balance between staying on the bleeding edge and at the same time finding a healthy space and finding people to talk to and people to relate to within the community. So I think every e-comm seller should know exactly when their next Kevin King event that they're going to go to is. When is the next conference that you're going to go to? And you want to know exactly when that is because you want to know when you're going to see your friends. You want to know when you're going to see your tribe. Like this is really a boy. Any Tony Robbins event, any of these guys will always say one of the things you should do as an entrepreneur is you should know when you're going to go and hang out with your people again. And so anybody who's listening to this, they really need to sit down, put it in the calendar. The next event is Market Masters, right, Kevin? That's the next one in August?

• Speaker #1

  Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  And I know that one's got some limited slots. Is that right?

• Speaker #1

  It is. And the only way I got Norm to come is to tell him I have a behiki for him.

• Speaker #2

  Exactly. Norm's like all the... How do you guys squeezing in these shameless plugs? Norm said,

• Speaker #1

  okay, I'm there.

• Speaker #2

  Behiki, I'm there. Yeah.

• Speaker #1

  Behiki, I'm there. But why is it e-comm, Drew? You're saying the e-com has this, but doesn't the local business guy have this? He doesn't know if a hamburger stand is going to open down the street that's going to take all of his business, or if it's going to rain and nobody's going to come out to his restaurant tonight and he's got all this food going to waste. Don't they have similar type of things?

• Speaker #0

  They have similar kind of things, and it's a little bit more localized. But an e-com, you can't just it's not like you switch a flip one day and all of a sudden hot dogs are illegal. What? You know, like, all of a sudden, hey, just want to let you know. I'm like, yeah, there was a thing. This thing happened. Hot dogs are now illegal. You're like, oh, wow, that entire container of hot dogs I have is illegal now.

• Speaker #1

  That's great. That does happen on Ecom. So those of you listening at our Ecom, it happens.

• Speaker #0

  You're like. I mean, you just get caught with your, you know, it's like you're going after that next big thing. And all of a sudden you're in the cookie jar and you got $2 million sitting on a boat from sign of the year. And sorry, you know, and, and all the, and those things just happen in e-comm. I mean, it just happened to me. I got, I had a, I have a client and we're doing, um, doing the $60,000 a day. Right. Number one in the category. And Amazon decided to change. It said that this product is treating a medical condition. We had made up a name for whatever this product was doing. It wasn't an actual technical medical thing. It was just a made up idea that it helps this idea. And then Amazon says, oh, your product is claiming to treat medical things. No, we're not. We just made up something that it potentially is helpful for.

• Speaker #2

  But I think this is completely different when you're dealing with Amazon. Back in 2013, this was painless. You can get up there. You can run your business. A lot of people have not gone through business programs or courses. So they might be in a totally different business. Now they're into e-com, which is you're an entrepreneur now. You got to jump in there and learn everything. But over the years, we saw something that caused the anxiety. It's an unfair advantage. And that's because Amazon, just like happened to you, but this happens on a regular basis, all of a sudden changes the rules or does something stupid and your listing suspended. or something's gone wrong. And that is an extra layer of anxiety for any Amazon seller.

• Speaker #1

  You know how you fix that, Norm?

• Speaker #2

  I'm listening.

• Speaker #1

  You know how you fix that? You control your destiny and your own distribution by having an email list that Dragonfish built. So then when...

• Speaker #2

  You're a shameless plug.

• Speaker #0

  I saw that coming a mile away.

• Speaker #2

  No one thought I was going to do something smart-ass. I thought you were going to talk about hot dogs again, and I was going to have a real heart attack.

• Speaker #0

  No, but just to pivot over, I want to go back to this idea of knowing when you're going to attend your next event. I want to go back to that. When we were talking about that earlier, knowing when you're going to attend Market Masters, knowing when you're going to go to even a Prosper or an Inspire.

• Speaker #1

  Or a local meetup in your city or something.

• Speaker #0

  Local meetup. a mastermind. I know that MDS does one-day events. The Titan Network, look, the Titan Network is a fantastic place for folks to be able to find a home within this community. But if there's one thing that I would really highly encourage every e-com entrepreneur, it is to build a network of friendships within that community. Whether you get together and you smoke cigars or you go mountain biking or you go fly fishing. Whatever it is that your habits afloat you. You got to have some people that you know, that you trust, and some folks that you can say, like, look, this catastrophic event happened. And people who can sit with you and say, man, I either have some solutions for you or I know a guy who knows a guy who breaks things or who fixes things. Right. That's how a lot of people find me. It's just, I know a guy who knows a guy who fixed things in Amazon and then my phone rings, right? Or somebody that you can call and they can say, yeah, I totally get it. I completely hear you. And I don't think that we talk about things like life coaching enough in, or business coaching. I don't think we talk about these things enough in e-com. So one of the things I think that kind of drives a lot of unhealthy mental health spaces in e-comm is the hyper-aggressive, optimization-addicted culture that we have, that everything always goes up and to the right. I can always be better. Everything can always be better. And I think this hyper-optimization actually leads to some pretty terrible health side effects, psychologically speaking. So learning to have a place where you can go. where you're not trying to make progress. You're just having fun. You're just being a person. And so I know like Norm, it's been so much fun hanging out with you over the last, I don't know, two or three months. And Kevin, you too. And I don't know, we're not doing businessy stuff. We're not, you know, there's just a joy of good conversation. And I know, I know that under the surface of this conversation right here, that there's nothing I can talk about from a business sense that you guys can't empathize with. I know that you guys would be able to sit with me on any of that issues.

• Speaker #1

  What about people that go to one of these events and everybody's ahead of them? I mean, they always say you don't want to be the smartest guy in the room. You want to be where the people who have been there before can guide you or can rub off on you or some of their habits. But at the same time, some people, they have an inferiority complex. They'll go and like, I'm not at that level. I suck. My life sucks because I'm not. traveling the world and somebody else running my business. I'm down here in the weeds, just cranking out and trying to free Rob Peter to pay Paul. So, I mean,

• Speaker #0

  look, I don't look like I belong in Titan. I mean, those guys are like the Greek gods and goddesses of the world. You know what I'm saying? And that's fantastic. I love them to death, but no, people want to talk about themselves. If you're brand new and you're a brand new seller, go and find somebody who's two or three levels and it's got two or three zeros ahead of you and be like, hey, can I pick your brain for a minute? People love to talk about themselves. They love to share what they did. And Norm, like you were saying earlier, they want to take you under their wing. I've never had anybody who's ever texted me like, hey, can I talk to you about how you built your supplement brand? And I've been like, no, I always tell them. In fact, I always wind up telling him way more than I should. Always. Norm, I don't know if you've ever told people way more than you should or Kevin, but I do. Because at the end of the day, like, I want him to succeed. I don't know. There's a joy in sharing. Like, I got this hard fought battle scars, these econ battle scars. Trust me, nobody cares about my battle scars, except for when I go and travel and talk to guys like you.

• Speaker #2

  Well, one of the, I was going to say one of the things that a lot of people can do. you Let's say you do have, and I do recommend going out and becoming part of an Amazon or e-com or whatever your niche is, is a mastermind. It's always great. Entrepreneurism is, or entrepreneurship is definitely a lonely battle. So if you can get that input and have people that, you know, are your peers and you can work with them, that's great. But there is another level. And I found when... I went into an organization called YEO. It's called EO now, Entrepreneurs Organization. And not only are you surrounded by a group of peers, but you can spin off into these forums. And it's like your own board of advisors, where you go in 100% confidential, anything you want to talk about. Not only do you become friends, but usually you grow your business with this group of people. over years. And if you're not, if you didn't go and get an MBA, well, this is a way that you can grow your business, make mistakes, get your business to a certain point where you won't believe the advancements that you make. And usually it's all because of the guys or the women that are in this group helping you advance. And there's a bunch of them out there, but the one that comes to mind is EO.

• Speaker #0

  Yep. It's a great organization. It's been around forever. I was thinking Tim Ferriss may have gotten started in EO way back in the day.

• Speaker #2

  It was Vern Harnish that started it up here in Toronto.

• Speaker #0

  I mean, it is. Denver has an amazing chapter for it. I know that it is a fantastic organization, you know, because part of the problem is that if you're successful in e-com, it can be and oftentimes is very isolated. you know, and you can find yourself isolating. And next thing you know, like you're doing well, but like nobody knows when everything, you know, when shit hits the fan, does anybody around you understand what happened? And that isolation, especially if it's tied to a material success, can lead to a lot of feelings of depression, anxiety, you know, now you got to solve this problem. And then it leads to a lot of addiction too. So, I mean, I talked to a lot of people in e-comm who were successful and they got that, but they wound up getting a drug or alcohol problem alongside of it. I know I did. And I've been sober now for seven and a half years. One of the first things I did as my, you know, talent level started rising in e-comm was I picked up a rock solid alcohol. You know, and so, hey, I mean, you don't get sober. You know, nobody goes into AA on a winning streak. You know what I'm saying? but like honestly what facilitated it was the fact that I was successful online. I didn't have to do anything. You know, so there's a lot going on in the space that we got to make sure that we're caring for each other, that we're sharing things that are appropriate to share in terms of, you know, how to grow our businesses, how to stay sane, how to stay happy, how to have a good time, how to make some friends along the way. It's all really important stuff. And I just think we don't really pay too much attention to this. I think we can get really caught up in just everything trying to get bigger, better, more scaled. And the AI stuff, of course, for me is pretty it causes a fair amount of anxiety. I'm glad to know that guys like John Aspinall are out there or Amy Weiss are out there making AI understandable for guys like me.

• Speaker #1

  Well, that's what happens when you're in a distillery and you just kind of get left behind, right?

• Speaker #0

  It's true. It is true. Yeah, I did own a distillery. We never actually sold any whiskey, though. We just we just had it.

• Speaker #1

  That's the drinking problem.

• Speaker #0

  I mean, you know, it's a thing. It was such an adventure, you know, and e-com has allowed me to do so many interesting things. You know, I've climbed all 58, 14000 peaks here in Colorado and I've gotten to do all kinds of other things. And yeah, there's a lot of wonderful experiences I've had in e-com, getting to meet guys like you, getting to meet other. rebels in the space because we're all on the edge. If you're in e-comm and you're successful, you're probably on the edge. You're good at finding loopholes. You're good at finding that sliver, just getting right through that. But because you're good at spotting the world that way, problems also get in that way. Learning to navigate finances and the taxes and sales tax and getting through all that kind of stuff. There's a whole layer of mental health that I think we should be talking about in e-com.

• Speaker #2

  Hey, Kev, have you ever felt trapped running a business or just burnt out?

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, that's happened a time or two. How would I find out if what I have is actually worth something if I'm looking to exit it?

• Speaker #2

  Well, I think one of the best things they could probably do is go to an expert that understands the market sentiment right now. The first one that comes to mind is Quietlight Brokerage. And here's why. They're going to build you up. They're going to understand your company. And at the end of the day, you're going to know how to maximize your valuation. So the very first thing you need to do is go and get your free confidential valuation at Quietlight.com and then, you know, let the games begin.

• Speaker #1

  Awesome. What was that website again?

• Speaker #2

  It's Quietlight.com.

• Speaker #1

  Awesome. I'm going to head over there. So with your success, you were successful in this. And then in 2022 or 2023, whatever it was, you went back and got your master's and your PhD. I did, yeah. What was the reason for that? If you're successful, and people usually go and get those so they can better their career, get a better job or something. But what led you to go back and get both of those after a lot of your success in e-commerce?

• Speaker #0

  I realized, I mean, my favorite thing is to do public speaking. And I like talking about midlife crisis for men and what it means to get through midlife crisis, kind of my big passion. And why I went back and got a degree was because I was really passionate about it. And I'd always wanted to do, I'd always wanted to write a dissertation, you know, which is the document you write before you get your PhD. And I'd always wanted to see what that experience felt like. And so. I finished mine. I'm sitting for my defense here in the next two weeks. And so then I'll be a full awarded Ph.D. in philosophy. And the reason I did it was because I realized that if I was to sell a business, no matter how much I sold my business for, let's pretend I go and sell my business for two hundred and fifty million dollars. That doesn't really matter. Like, does that mean I have some big idea to share? Like, not really. And so I wanted to know. where really great ideas came from and how do you actually generate great ideas. And if you want to participate intellectually, you have to learn how to participate intellectually. You can't just start talking. It may not actually hold any weight. And so, yeah, for me, it was actually really important to go and get some skin in the game to be able to talk intelligently about some of this stuff, especially when it comes to things like mental health or when it comes to you theology or when it comes to, you know, that kind of, I think it's important that you go and get a piece of paper.

• Speaker #1

  So it wasn't for Norm to start calling you Dr. Drew.

• Speaker #0

  Oh, I mean, Norm, you can call me Dr. Drew any day of the week.

• Speaker #2

  I'll just call you the double D's.

• Speaker #0

  Double D's. Look, man, if you need to get it, you need to get it. I understand. No, I just it was really a big passion of mine. I wanted to live in a world where where I think academics does matter. And I think a lot of us in e-comm, I think we blow off a lot of the academics. And I do think that it matters. There's a challenge to yourself that you have to undergo to go through to be able to do that. And I think there's a real joy and a real benefit to sitting down, getting the work done and saying, I am committed to being in this field. I'm not going to be a renegade and a rebel forever. And I'm actually going to sit here and participate. So if you want to get a hold of me, if you've got some life coaching type stuff, if you're in that. econ space and you're like man i would love to have somebody to talk to who understands what's going on by all means just look up drew little johns on linkedin and come reach out and find me even if it's just one there's like 40 of them on linkedin no there's only one drew little johns or

• Speaker #1

  it comes up when you type drew little johns linkedin which of the 40 do you want to do okay if you type in little johns distillery drunk it the Fix you. It's your picture. Oh,

• Speaker #0

  just fix me. Oh, well, that's going to help things a lot easier, right? Yeah, no. You can reach me, drew.littlejohns at gmail, mythosmarketingllc. You can go to .com. You can go to my website. But no, if you're struggling, if you're like, man, I feel isolated. I feel burned out. By all means, just give me a call. Like reach out. I would love to talk with you, kind of set up a plan to be able to kind of work with you on how to navigate that. If you want a done-for-you Amazon guy, I do done-for-you stuff. That's everything from establishing new ASINs, getting everything going, getting all your first initial set of Vine reviews and feedback and UGC and all that kind of stuff. But a big Amazon done-for-you guy. So that's establishing your three PLs. You can go from zero Amazon presence to seven figures probably in about a year, depending on where you're at in that Amazon space. And so... But guys, I just love hanging out with you and being on the podcast. It's always fun.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, so on the marketing side of things, what are you seeing that's changing out there right now? I mean, you said you're not a big AI guy, but does AI scare you or you just haven't had time to dive into it or from what you're seeing when clients and stuff are coming to you? What's your gut feelings on where things are going from a marketing and a marketplace point of view?

• Speaker #0

  I mean, right now, from an AI perspective, my thought is, is know the guys who know what they're doing and have a bat line to them and pay attention to what they're saying. And as soon as you find something that's implementable, either get them on board to implement them as fast as possible. A lot of times I find that not all of AI is directly applicable to the organization that I happen to be in. Right. And so it's mostly about saying, OK. Like we got this whole big Amazon listing changes that are coming up, what, in three weeks, right? July 25th, I think it is, that all the listings are going to be 75 characters. And if you aren't totally aligned with, you know, whatever their thing is, that is a perfect use case for AI, right? And also to be able to run it through multiple AI engines, to be able to get what I'd say is probably the best semantics, right? Because you want... you want to be able to ping the semantics as good as you possibly can, to be as relevant as you can. And then to make sure to use AI to, you know, make sure you have all the demographics represented on your product listings pages. And you want to be as complete and coherent as possible. So for me, I know the guys that I follow, which are basically the guys that Kevin, that you're like, Hey, these are good people to follow for AI. I follow them. And I read what they say and I take what they say seriously. And when three or four of them say the same thing in any given period of time, that is a direct clue to get to work and start moving forward. So, I mean, I mess around and quad and, you know, all the things. I just wouldn't consider myself to be like an AI guy because having a PhD, I know what it means to be a guy in a thing. Right. I would never make that claim. Do I do it? Of course. But am I a guy? Not really.

• Speaker #2

  That's probably a problem that a lot of people try to be everything. Okay, I've got to be an expert in AI, and they do it half-assed. And it'll come out that way. So sometimes you've got to hire an expert and you've got to part with your money. So and this just happened just recently. I was talking to a guy and he was complaining that this AI person wanted a certain amount of cash. And they fixed this problem in about five minutes. And he did it. And this is a perception issue too for these AI guys, but they did it in five minutes and they wanted X number of dollars. And the person was telling me, well, it took them five minutes. And I'm sitting there going, man, first of all, you don't understand it. You couldn't have fixed it. But going back to the AI guy saying, you made a critical error perception. If you would have spent another hour or two on this and then sent this answer over to them, they would have been. happy to pay the price.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, you do it in five minutes and you just wait, wait two hours to send it to them and say, I've been working on this for the last couple of hours. Here you go.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, you just hit it. You put it in the Slack as like a pinged response for four and a half hours later. Actually, I would send a bunch of messages that are like, hey, this is really tough. I would do the whole George Costanza from Seinfeld where you have to look really stressed out. And I would be like, things are going off the rails. It's not. great, right? Just all these time Slack messages. And then finally like, Hey guys, it was figuring it out. It was exhausting, but we dialed it in. We roped it in. We circled the wagons. We got it done just for you. All right.

• Speaker #2

  Kevin does me with my messages. I'll send it over. You must have really high perception of Kevin. Yeah, it has to be because you know, you'll wait hours, if not days and then, Oh, you'll say, yep.

• Speaker #0

  So when it comes to AI, that's my whole approach is basically like, man, know your strengths. Know where you're good at and pay attention. Pay attention to Vanessa Hung. Pay attention to Amy Weiss. Pay attention to John. Pay attention. Don't bury your head in the sand. But one of the crazy things about AI is that there's something called the Dunning-Kruger effect. You guys know what the Dunning-Kruger effect is?

• Speaker #1

  I do, but explain it to the audience.

• Speaker #0

  All right. I don't. So the Denny Greer effect is that when you don't know anything, you think you know a lot. And the more you learn, the less you think you know. Until the very end, when you actually know a ton, you're like, yeah, I kind of know a little bit. But the problem with AI is that it makes everybody way overconfident. And they really think that they know exactly what the answer is. And the problem is. you get in there with some of the stuff that you need, but you don't actually understand the issue at hand. So for example, let's say I'm writing a, I've got a case that I'm escalating into Amazon or something like that. And I go and I say, hey, write me a case thing for a response to Amazon. Well, if I don't know exactly what to reference, because I've done this a bunch of times, it's going to take me close. But it's not going to get me exactly where I need to go. And I think a lot of times Amazon just makes us a little, or not Amazon, but AI makes us a little bit too confident in a skill set that we don't actually have. You know, it's like a guy thinking that because he can get a lot of dates on Tinder that he's a pickup artist. Like that's not how that works, you know? And so I think we have a lot of problems where we think we're a lot better at certain things than we actually are. And in e-com, you don't escalate some of these things properly. You can have million-dollar listings go down.

• Speaker #1

  What do you see changing in marketplaces and stuff right now? I mean, you're dealing with a lot of people primarily on Amazon, and I'm assuming a little bit of other marketplaces. Where do you think this is all going? Do you think it's going to be harder to become an entrepreneur in e-commerce or easier because of AI and agents? Or what's your... big projection of where this industry is going?

• Speaker #0

  I'll tell you the thing that I got started in search engine optimization. That's really how I got started. And of course, that's, you know, exact match keywords, you know, very keyword driven kind of thing. And so I'm really curious to see how the keyword marketplace changes through Amazon's. AI distribution or just through Gemini and how it suggests things, the way that suggested products will be given to people as opposed to keyword distribution. Now, of course, the guys who are good at marketing, the guys who are good at driving that branded traffic, right? That's driving external branded traffic is always going to be king. I mean, 100%. I don't think there's any way to argue against that. That is where it's always going to be at. But from the keyword side of things, from the product discovery side of things, I'm really curious to see how AI is going to impact. Because search engine optimization could go away completely. And I remember watching you talk about that, Kevin, in Nashville and being like, I don't think he's wrong. But that's the thing that concerns me the most, for sure. How will people find products in the future?

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, it's not always going to be people, though. It's going to be agents. So this is a thing a lot of people are underestimating this. Right now, it's clunky and clanky, and it's not so good, but it's moving quick. If I'm selling a vitamin C supplement, right now, I type in vitamin C supplement, I go to Amazon, and there's 50 choices. But it's going to get to where the AI, the agents go. They look at those 50 choices. They analyze every single one of them based on what they know about you from all your other searches and all the other data they have. And they're going to say, well, these are the three that are best for Drew. And that's all. And that's all you're going to ever see. And it's going to pop up and say, I found the one that's right for you. Here's this one from this brand. Do you want to buy it? Just say or just say OK into your phone and it'll take care of it. Or it's going to just do it automatically. And you're going to put in your card, it's going to show up, and you're like, what the hell did I order today? What's showing up today? And I think that's going to be a big push. And one of the, you talked earlier about the 75 character limit on Amazon on titles. The reason they're doing that is for AI product cards. If you go, it matches up perfectly to AI product cards and what they need to do for AI to actually, for token stuff. And so there's a reason on that. and it's it's moving in that direction. And a lot of people aren't paying attention to that. Or they are, they're, they're hearing a little bit here or there and they're like, eh, I don't know what I'm doing right now is working. I'm good.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. So I don't know you. One thing I do know is this, the only constant thing in the entire world is change. That's the one thing I do know. So let's say you get a handle on it in the next six months. Great. A year from now, maybe you'll lose it. Or what I see is, you know, people get successful and you get married. And you have kids. Those kids need you to start driving them to t-ball. And while you're driving them to t-ball, some other guy is 28 or 26 and doesn't have a wife, doesn't have a kids, right? He's got more neuro flexibility than you've got, and they're able to come up and do it, right? And so they've got time, they've got effort, they've got energy, they've got hunger. So one thing I do know is this, even if you solve it in a year, you may not have it for forever. And that's why you have to have a strong foundation of relationships. That's why you have to have a strong concept of who you are as a person, what your destiny is, what your legacy is going to be, the kind of person that you want to be, really. Those are the things that I think every e-com person needs to be focusing on, because even if you get it today, it's going to be hard to keep it for the next decade. Because you're going to want to start living life eventually. So that's kind of where I sit with it. I don't know exactly, but I do know that change is coming. And you can either make peace with it now or you can make peace with it later. How many sellers dropped off Amazon last year? A thousand or something?

• Speaker #1

  Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  And I believe that Amazon wants to weed as many of them out as humanly possible.

• Speaker #1

  That's true. If you even look at TikTok. There's all this hype around TikTok right now, but you look at Marketplace Pulse just did a study and it showed that the top 1% of sellers on TikTok account for 60% of the sales.

• Speaker #0

  1%.

• Speaker #1

  Top 1% account for 60% of the sales. And so that shows you how concentrated it is. And there's similar numbers aren't quite that extreme on Amazon. But the average out of what's it amazon sellers selling over a million dollars it's another marketplace pulse at this point uh have been on average selling for 11 years on amazon if you take all the people doing a million dollars or more they've been on average so it's it's the people who are entrenched who got there early and that's where on ai and where this stuff is changing you need to be there early because that's you're gonna have that kind of built-in moat 10 years from now yeah i know we've been selling on Amazon for what?

• Speaker #0

  14 years. And, you know, I find it to be relatively easy, but we've been entrenched. So, yeah. So I would just say for your audience, man, guys, like we all know how much is changing. Just make sure that you have all your. your personal ducks in a row. Let's not forget that that's a part of living a great life. It's part of why we got into e-comm to begin with, right? We wanted to be our own boss. We wanted to have financial freedom. We wanted to become a digital nomad, or we wanted to live the four-hour work week or whatever it was that we were striving for when we got into e-comm, right? Let's not make sure that we lose out on that good life because we're too buried in trying to maintain a bleeding edge or over-optimized or whatever.

• Speaker #3

  Hey, Kevin King and Norm Farrar here. If you've been enjoying this episode of Marketing Misfits, thanks for listening this far. Continue listening. We've got some more valuable stuff coming up. Be sure to hit that subscribe button if you're listening to this on your favorite podcast player. Or if you're watching this on YouTube or Spotify, make sure you subscribe to our channel because you don't want to miss a single episode of the Marketing Misfits. Have you subscribed yet, Norm?

• Speaker #2

  Well, this is an old guy alert. Should I subscribe to my own podcast?

• Speaker #3

  Yeah, but what if you forget to show up one time? It's just me on here. You're not going to know what I say.

• Speaker #2

  I'll buy you a beard and you can sit in my chair too. And we'll just, you can go back and forth with one another. Yikes. But that being said, don't forget to subscribe, share it. Oh, and if you really like this content, somewhere up there, there's a banner. Click on it and you'll go to another episode of the Marketing Misfits.

• Speaker #0

  make sure you don't miss a single episode because you don't want to be like norm oh well i got an e-com to meet norm and now my dream is fulfilled i mean i got an e-com just to meet you and uh mark you know or

• Speaker #1

  is it me or mark or uh the other things that me and mark know

• Speaker #0

  All I know is hanging out with you guys has been one of the great joys and unexpected joys that I've had in my Amazon journey. Yeah, getting to meet you guys over the last few months and really getting to hang out has been a ton of fun. Yeah, I can't wait to see you guys in August.

• Speaker #1

  Yep, it's going to be great. Well, if people want to reach out to you, what's the best way? I know you mentioned earlier, but what's the best way to find you on the interwebs?

• Speaker #0

  I mean, the interwebs, shoot me an email. Just drew.littlejohns at gmail.com. Find me on LinkedIn. You can find me pretty much anywhere. Heck, you could shoot me a text, 805-459-8214. I'm going to get a lot of bots for this one, but whatever. Especially if you need some help, if you just need somebody to talk to, I'm right here. I'm with you. If you've got an addiction problem and you want to talk to somebody, I'm here. If you've got a stress, you know, e-com problem, I'm here. And if you need somebody to help take you over into Amazon and take care of you over there, I'm happy to do that too. But really, I just like being a part of the cog in the wheel that is marketing misfits and your guys' career over here. So thanks so much for having me over here.

• Speaker #2

  Ah, you're welcome. All right, Drew, we're at the top of the hour. And I got one question for you. We always ask our misfit if they know a misfit.

• Speaker #0

  My favorite misfit around is her name is Corinne Bristol. She is my absolute favorite marketing misfit. So I heard her speak many years ago at Prosper, and she's become a very close friend of mine over the last few years. And I definitely wouldn't be where I am without her. And she is an absolute misfit.

• Speaker #2

  Perfect. All right. Okay, sir. Well, thanks a lot for being part of this today.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. Thanks, guys, for having me. I look forward to seeing you guys a little bit later on.

• Speaker #1

  All right. I'm going to resume. Thanks, Drew. Now get the hell out of here. Remove your ass.

• Speaker #2

  Remove me.

• Speaker #1

  I thought I was the only one that you used to remove, Norm.

• Speaker #2

  Well, yeah. Yeah, it came. pretty close to the last one. The last podcast,

• Speaker #1

  he almost got the button. Almost got the button? Yeah. So, yeah, well, I didn't. I saved by, not saved by the bell, saved by the what? I don't know, something. Saved by the cigar, because I told you. Okay, okay. There's a behege waiting for you in Austin, so you're like, well.

• Speaker #2

  All right. No,

• Speaker #1

  I don't want to remove them just yet. So, no, I mean, what Drew said, you know, get out there. A lot of people listening to this podcast, you're in your own little world and you think you're, like he said, they were at $7 or $8 million before he met his first Amazon seller and someone, you know, that understood what he's been going through. So get out there. You don't have to come to one of my events. You can go to any event, just a local meetup or whatever it is. It can be super valuable. And not only a lot of times can you learn something, but you'll meet people. they get you uh and you meet people that you can do business with you you never know um i go to a lot of events norm goes to quite a few as well and it's one of the best ways to uh and sometimes at these events it's not so much me learning something it's just brainstorming you know someone will say something on a stage or someone will say something in a conversation and i'm like wait a second i already knew that but with this with this with this with this and now i've got something special and so that that's part of it too it's just getting out getting into a different environment, change of scenery. Especially when you're doing these changes of scenery, if you've got to travel to actually get to this place, by plane or by car, you should be listening to the Marketing Misfits podcast. Or if someone else is driving, you can be watching it. So how do they do that, Norm?

• Speaker #2

  I think the best way to do it is to go over to our YouTube channel, and that is at Marketing Misfits podcast. Or if you want just the short clips, Marketing Misfits. Fitz clips and for the podcast. We're on all of the major podcast platforms. Plus what just came out, Kev?

• Speaker #1

  Newsletter. It's at misfits.news. Misfits, not marketing, but misfits.news. Every Wednesday, a brand new edition of that comes out and it's getting some pretty good reviews. It's growing right now. So get in and it's free. It's no obligation, but some valuable nuggets from the podcast. And, and, From me and Norm.

• Speaker #2

  All right. So I think that's about it.

• Speaker #1

  I think that's it for this week. I guess I'll have to see you again next week, right?

• Speaker #2

  Absolutely, if you want me to.

• Speaker #1

  I don't know. Looking forward to it. We'll see you then.

• Speaker #2

  I got my new background. Woo-hoo. All right. See you.

• Speaker #1

  You're going to show up one time without a beard. I'm going to be like, who the hell is this dude? Take care, guys.

• Speaker #2

  See you.