Transcription

• Speaker #0

  The landing page is kind of not enough anymore. Conversational marketing is the way to do so because people now are used to talk to chat GPT for hours every day, to ask even the smallest detail of anything they're researching by talking to them. And of course, you don't really want a human to do that because it's going to be super expensive. by talking to them and answering every small detailed question, then all these last minute doubts, they will be just disappearing and the customer will converse.

• Speaker #1

  That's so important. Do you find that the younger generation is much more willing to do chats than the older generation or is it the other way around?

• Speaker #0

  As soon as we change just an headline in a landing page, the results of the page can change completely.

• Speaker #2

  Your watch on marketing mistakes. Ignore for our...

• Speaker #1

  Mr. Farrar, we're back for another episode. How you be?

• Speaker #3

  I'm just looking at the brand new Kevin King, like with those brand new shades. Pretty, pretty cool, dude.

• Speaker #1

  Oh yeah. I had to, you know, my other ones broke. I sat on them, actually. I had them in my pocket. I sat on them and bent them. So I was like, I had these in the drawer from a couple of years ago. And I was like, you know what? I'll put them on. And everybody's like, those are Stalin. You look like you're in your 20s. That's what they're all wearing now. I'm like, oh, okay. But they're heavy. They're heavy on my face. So I'm not used to this heaviness. But you know what? When you're an old man and you want to be able to read the screen, you got to wear some glasses.

• Speaker #3

  It doesn't matter anymore.

• Speaker #1

  You've done a little bit of traveling, haven't you, Norm?

• Speaker #3

  Maybe once or twice.

• Speaker #1

  You know, our buddy Steve Simonson and a few other people that we know, they always post these pictures when they're in the airplanes or like, their trips, you know, and Steve's always like posting pictures of like, did I get the upgrade or not? And leaving everybody on pins and needles, did he get an upgrade? And we know Bradley, he's always posting something and he posts something like flight number 82 of the year or something, and then the next leg is flight number 83. Have you ever counted how many flights you have actually done?

• Speaker #3

  No, but you know what? This is... Back in the 90s, I used to collect the hotel cards and it was just a collection, right? And they were- Like the room key? Yeah, the room keys. You know, the plastic keys. Yeah. And they were stacked up. I wish I would have kept them and just kept doing it because it would have been a pile.

• Speaker #1

  So no,

• Speaker #3

  I haven't counted them.

• Speaker #1

  I didn't think Motel 6 back in the 90s had those though. I thought- No, days in. It was days in. Key on a chain. whereas after a real key and it's a 50 if you lost it i thought that was the thing hey that happened in paris you remember that those big mother wooden i brought it home with me i got charged like 250 bucks or a guest today i mean besides doing all kinds of stuff and exiting businesses and doing all kinds of crazy stuff he i think he said he's done over 400 flights and uh 50 something countries so uh he's on his way he's on his way um uh that that's pretty cool That's why I was asking you if you ever counted up how many flights you've done or how many countries you've been to.

• Speaker #3

  Couldn't even begin. I know the countries. I think it's 64, but I don't know the flights.

• Speaker #1

  Well, I guess, you know, it's appropriate then that our guest today actually calls this company Zip because he was zipping around the world. And now he's zipping around chats. He's the founder of ZipChat.ai. Really good.

• Speaker #3

  knowledgeable about conversion science and stuff and it's going to be a really good talk today uh with with luca and yeah i'm gonna let you pronounce his last name so all right who was our guest today on me okay here we go we'll see if i can look oh is that right was that right hello hi norma hi kevin thanks for having me gary it was right okay i wanted to put him on the spot so is that right you've been uh you've been traveling You've been traveling over 400 flights and 50 some odd countries.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, exactly. Especially during my affiliate marketing times, I was always traveling all over the world. Then when the COVID hit, actually I started to slow down a little bit, but I just came back from actually a trip that involved both Chicago and London last week for two conferences. So yeah, I'm always on the run.

• Speaker #3

  I'm always curious about people that travel so extensively. So you're going to all these conferences. Like, are you gaining anything? Are you the reason you're there? Because you want to be known in that niche? Or why so much travel?

• Speaker #0

  There are two main reasons. Mostly we go there as sponsors. So we have a booth, we have a team joining me. And the main goal is to, you know, make leads, acquire new customers for our venture. Other conferences, I just go to attend and be part of the audience and attend the beautiful speeches. And I use this as an excuse to travel, see new places.

• Speaker #1

  Gain some points. What did you sell in the affiliate world? What was... What were you pushing back then?

• Speaker #0

  It was very back in the days when I was still in university, the classic research online, how to make money online. And then we started, I used to have a blog at the time where I was talking about blogging, make money online, direct selling, this kind of stuff. And I started to promote some business opportunities, trading platform like Plus500. eToro and other like CPA based platforms then I started to run like some Nutra campaigns and that were they would the best one at the time so were you going to shows like affiliate world east and west and affiliate world summit that's in Dubai and what's the it's in Thailand or where were they uh Bangkok yeah yeah it's Bangkok it's Bangkok yeah we I started attending the affiliate world when it was first hired in London then Berlin then they moved to

• Speaker #1

  barcelona then they got acquired now i think they're running in budapest yeah yeah that's right um yeah do you guys mean i have not it's one of the home probably one of the only conferences i haven't been to in the internet marketing space uh but norm told me i gotta stop going to conferences so uh i'm not allowed to go a a not around the top i said the important ones you can go to. Grounded me. So I can't go to the experiences anymore.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, I remember at the time it was very big, the one in San Diego, the Trafficking and Conversion Summit. That was also pretty good. I don't know if it still exists.

• Speaker #3

  No, it doesn't. It just canceled this year.

• Speaker #0

  Oh, okay. I remember they sold it.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, they sold it. Three guys that own it sold it for like $27 million right before COVID started. And then COVID hit and the company that bought it, Emerald Expositions, was like, uh-oh, what do we do? Turns out they had insurance that covered like 10 million of it. They had an end-of-the-world insurance or whatever they call that. So they didn't get left holding the bag, but then they tried to run it and it just died. And then Perry Belcher, who was one of the original three founders, just recently started his own thing. Because it died, he had a non-compete. So now he can do something up to 1,000 people. So he just did something back in September called Growth Hacking Live, which he's hoping to. to be like the new traffic and conversion type of thing so it still exists just uh kind of in a different form a different format um but uh yeah there's there's tons of stuff out there what's your favorite conference that you've that you've gone to where have you gotten the most i guess two questions where have you gotten the most sales for your business uh as a sponsor what uh and where have you learned the most where the speeches the talks are actually worth attending so i would say the the traffic conversion summit of 2018

• Speaker #0

  I think it was actually my favorite ever in terms of speech and things I actually learned. When it comes to conferences where we sold the most, I would mention two. One is Netcom in Milan, actually. It's a very Italian conference, but since it's only Italian brands, and it's very difficult for international companies to tackle it because Italians don't really speak English, so they don't really attend the conference. That's a great one for us. And the second one is... the e-commerce expo in London. I've just been there like last week, but it's already going like crazy. So very exciting one.

• Speaker #3

  I was shocked at a conference I went to in Turkey, probably three or four years ago, called e-commerce world forum, I think it was. And I hadn't heard of it. I thought it was just going to be kind of a dud. And then all of a sudden, like... There's hundreds of thousands of people that attended over the three-day period. And it was in this huge convention center. They tried to bring it over to the U.S., but it flopped. But it's still going on. It was World E-Commerce Forum. That's what it is.

• Speaker #0

  I have to check it out. Never been.

• Speaker #3

  I think you'll like it. You'll be pleasantly surprised at who's there, who attends, the amount of stages. Like there's probably... four or five stages going at one time plus the main stage. And they did it up. They didn't hold anything back. It was very well done.

• Speaker #1

  That's the one where you had to come all to get to your Uber ride, right?

• Speaker #3

  Yeah, it was a long one. And all the taxis and Ubers were on strike, or the taxis were on strike, and Uber took like an hour to two hours because they had the European football finals there. So that was crazy. But another event that kind of just snuck up, and I'm going to definitely go again next year. You might want to attend this, Luca, but it's Ecom North. Yeah. Last year. Last year was its first year.

• Speaker #0

  I haven't been yet, but actually we are planning to sponsor it next year as well because we heard so many good things about that.

• Speaker #3

  They probably had 100 digital displays going just with the e-comm north everywhere you went. And then they had all these monitors. They had four or five stages. The main stage was huge. And they filled it with... They spread out all the exhibits. So this is really good, like hooking it back to marketing. Sometimes it's an exhibit hall and you just kind of get bored. But what they did is they broke up. They had five in one area. You walk up the stairs, they had another five or six exhibitors. And they were filled. These booths were not cheap. And the tickets went from $500 at which... I was talking to one of the organizers, were the least of the tickets that were sold. Everybody went for the VIP, which was two grand. And then they had brand and something else, which was, I think, three and five grand. But at least 2,000 people.

• Speaker #0

  Wow.

• Speaker #3

  Except for Canada, who has nothing. Yeah, they did a great job.

• Speaker #1

  What did you say? Canada has nothing?

• Speaker #3

  Yeah, that's true. But. I guess.

• Speaker #1

  So, Luca, when it comes to affiliate marketing, what chops did you learn doing affiliate marketing that you were able to apply to what you're doing? We'll talk about what you're doing now, but able to apply to what you're doing now. What really skill set did you refine doing the affiliate marketing that's been very helpful in doing ZipChat?

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, absolutely. I would say everything concerning copywriting and direct response. Even if it's a little bit different because now, of course, my company is a B2B company. So the sales cycle is longer and conversions in general takes a little bit longer than when you run a campaign which will lead hundreds of conversions in the same day. But definitely copywriting and understanding how people consume the content you create, running the campaign, the creative, the landing page, testing lots of headlines, this kind of stuff. It's definitely the part I took from my affiliate experience and I still run nowadays every day.

• Speaker #1

  So are you doing affiliate as you're buying social media or doing social media organic or paid placements? Or did you have a huge email list that you were doing? What type of affiliate?

• Speaker #0

  Not really. That was definitely a mistake. Again, I was still in university. As a European, we were, I think, years behind. uh you guys in us and i learned that after that building a list would have been better at the time we're just like promoting direct response so uh we were getting paid per lead every time we were generating a lead as simple as just the email address we're getting like paid i i think one of the first campaign was four four point six dollars so very good and then we could have like all the kind of different uh cpas depending on on on the conversion goal of the advertiser so I was definitely not collecting anything. I was sending traffic to an advertorial or a prelander that me and my business partner, we were building at the time. And then the magic of the copywriting was leading the conversions.

• Speaker #1

  Hey, Norm, you'll love this, man. I talked to a seller the other day doing 50K a month. But when I asked them what their actual profit was, they just kind of stared at me.

• Speaker #3

  Are you serious? That's kind of like driving blindfolded.

• Speaker #1

  Exactly, man. I told them, you got to check out Sellerboard, this cool profit tool that's built just for Amazon sellers. It tracks everything like fees, PPC, refunds, promos, even changing COGS using FIFO.

• Speaker #3

  Aha, but does it do FBM shipping costs too?

• Speaker #1

  Sure does. That way you can keep your quarter four chaos totally under control and know your numbers because not only does it do that, but it makes your PPC bids, it forecasts inventory. It sends review requests and even helps you get reimbursements from Amazon.

• Speaker #3

  Now that's like having a CFO in your back pocket.

• Speaker #1

  You know what? It's just $15 a month, but you got to go to sellerboard.com forward slash misfits, sellerboard.com forward slash misfits. And if you do that, they'll even throw in a free two-month trial.

• Speaker #3

  So you want me to say, go to sellerboard.com misfits and get your numbers straight before your accountant loses it?

• Speaker #1

  Exactly.

• Speaker #3

  All right.

• Speaker #1

  Look up, you're writing on the page. Yeah. Okay.

• Speaker #3

  Did you ever switch? Now you said in university, you didn't understand it, you felt it would be high.

• Speaker #0

  Our switch was actually that we were quite good at that. And we started to have people asking us to help them or do something similar. So as soon as we finished the university, we did two things. The first one was creating as more agency, where we were helping brands structure the funnels and the direct response campaigns, most like Italian and European companies. And the second thing was, okay, if you're good at promoting and getting conversions, why don't we promote something that is ours? So instead of promoting somebody else. And that's when we actually started doing drop shipping because it was the easiest way to get into commerce. So we said, okay, how can we leverage our competencies to build something that potentially is longer term because I think that was our bias from university. Even if affiliate was very profitable and very exciting, we were always feeling like we're not building something long-term. And I mean, every day, at university, they keep telling you, build a brand in long-term, invest in the future. And campaigns were like, you start it, you get profitable at some point if you're good, you scale it, and then it just dies. And then you start from scratch again. And every day like this. So it was also kind of boring at some point. With the dropshipping part was very exciting to try to figure it out, how to solve real business problems. And at the time, one of those was definitely the shipping times that were very, very long. I'm talking about dropshipping, that I think from AliExpress when Oberlo was just getting started. And I mean, we're talking about like 35, 40 days shipping to US and Europe and other countries.

• Speaker #3

  Can we talk a little bit about... the copy. So many people will talk, especially to Kevin. He's very good at copy and the slightest changes. Can you emphasize how important it is to test and split test and understand your audience for copy?

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, absolutely. I mean, as soon as we change just an headline in a landing page, like the entire results of the page can change completely and i not even talking about you know editing the rest of the content but just that line uh is so important and can drive like uh an increase or a decrease of conversion so this is something we always try to you know um bet against so we always make a launch new test also for for zip chat itself again of course it has a longer uh conversion uh conversion cycle so So results are not as fast as when as. as when you launch and run like an affiliate marketing campaign or e-commerce campaign but that's make all the difference i remember when i we were doing like three four landing pages same landing page different um uh headline and i mean there was some landing pages converting like at crazy numbers and some landing pages converting almost nothing and nothing else in the landing pages uh where where changes so the one that was winning uh we were keep testing it against new variations in order to of course improve and find out what could convert even better so what talking about conversions i mean one of the things that a lot of people i see this all the time because i do email marketing for uh

• Speaker #1

  i have a newsletter and people pay me for ads in the newsletter and and that in the newsletter and then i send dedicated dedicated emails and norm does the same thing with his and i'll see people that get 2,000 clicks off of an email, but then they sometimes they call me and they're thrilled to death and say, I want 10 more. And then other times they're like, that didn't work. Nobody signed up or nobody paid or whatever. And even though they got 1,700 clicks that, I think you call it last mile conversion is just not happening. What do you see that causes that? Is it a disconnect from the message and the email? to the landing page? Is it something on the landing page that they haven't tested? Are they going straight for the sale without giving them more information? What do you see are some common things that caused that last mile? to fail uh and i know that's your tool helps uh salvage some of that we'll talk about that but uh what are some of just the fundamental things for those listening that they need to take a look at on that landing page first to help that conversion yeah absolutely so um of

• Speaker #0

  course one of the main things when you run any kind of promotion is the product market feed if your product is not aligned with the market you're promoting this product too i mean you can buy 1 million clicks but it's not not gonna work. That's why one of the first lessons I learned is that you can get really cheap clicks by showing, for example, a very hot woman in the ad, but then it doesn't mean these clicks are going to convert.

• Speaker #1

  So clickbait so much as I'm talking about a highly targeted where, for my example, I've got an audience of Amazon people that are Amazon sellers primarily. They want to I wanna make money selling on Amazon. I have a software company. that says hey we can help you do some aspect of selling on amazon maybe it's managing your ads or maybe it's doing your listings or making your images whatever it is so there's definitely product market fit so but then so that's that one i want to go beyond that and my question is not the product market fit not the clickbaity stuff uh like like you know you see like you're saying but there is product market fit and the people actually they're clicking so that means they're interested at some point in reading that ad but they're not converting on on when they hit when they hit the landing page? There's a big disparity between 2,000 clicks and five conversions for one person and 2,000 clicks and 100 conversions for another person. That's where I'm trying to get at. What is on that landing page is something that they should diagnose to see where is this problem? Where is something wrong?

• Speaker #0

  Do they actually get an higher conversion rate from other traffic sources?

• Speaker #1

  I don't know.

• Speaker #0

  That's the big one. I mean, their funnel can be just converting that much because overall that kind of audience or the product they're promoting still is not as hot as they think it is. I mean, that's a big one. I run a couple of startups and we also had problems sometimes in figuring it out and having a good conversion rate. It didn't matter where we were getting the traffic from, even if it was super in target with what we were promoting. With that being said, the first thing that happens when somebody clicks is that, of course, has to find some consistency with what they click on and what they find on the landing page. So if they don't find this consistency or the landing page copy or layout or whatever makes them get some last minute doubts, that's already a failure. And if you're not able as a marketer to address these last minute doubts as soon as possible, and then convert these last minute doubts into problem solve, okay, yes, I'm fine with this, then they're going to stop for sure. We see this every day with our tool in e-commerce. We target only e-commerce, so we don't really work with software. So there might be a little bit different what ZipShot would need to do. But for example, for e-commerce, the kind of objections are really category and product, let's say, circle. So for example, if you're talking about fashion, the kind of objection that come out to mind to people. are usually related to the sizing, to the type of material, the quality of the product, this kind of stuff. And it doesn't matter if the FAQs explain how to calculate the sizing, still they will have doubts about that. Also, because if you buy different products, different fashion products from the same store, the same brands, different products might fit differently. And that's full of the web. It's full of reviews about even super famous brands and the comments are like, oh, I bought the L size for this. t-shirt and then I bought the L size for another one and they're fitting completely different. The sizing problem is a big one. So by being able to understand and address this and help them understand which one is the right fitting at the right moment, then this kind of sales will actually happen. So they will not drop. So in the software, it's kind of similar. If the person that is clicking is expecting to solve something and then it starts to have lots of doubts about how this software is actually delivering on the promises is sending me on the newsletter ad, probably people will just drop. And again, we really believe conversational marketing is the way to do so because people now are used to talk to chat GPT for hours every day to ask even the smallest detail about anything they're researching. So a landing page is kind of not enough anymore, in our opinion. by talking to them. And of course, you don't really want a human to do that because it's going to be super expensive. But by talking to them and answering every small detailed question, then all these last minute doubts, they will be just disappearing and the customer will convert.

• Speaker #3

  So you're talking about your app right now, ZipChat, correct? This is where that takes over.

• Speaker #0

  Okay. I mean, it can be ZipChat, but it can be, you know, even like a human just talking to everybody.

• Speaker #3

  Right. Yeah, but I just want to go back. So forget about the ZipChat right now or any of those other apps. Just going back to what we were just talking about, identifying these issues. And I think that a lot of sellers think that this is simple. You think you know your demographic. You put together some copy. You throw up a landing page, and then you wonder why it's not converting. And this is where you really have to know and dig in and understand, identify who your demographic is or the persona. We talk about the five levels of awareness. All these things are a factor in getting conversions. So ChatGPT can be a source for that. But for the most part, I think this is where, especially if you're new, you want to spend that on an agency or somebody that can help you out. Because if we did something or somebody that spent $40 and just started out and Amazon started to do something, you're probably going to see a lot different conversion rate. And they think it's fantastic because they put in a one-line prompt. And ChatGPT5 just spit something out. And it's awesome, of course, But it didn't convert. So these little extra, what you're doing and what you were saying is, you know, identifying and removing the doubts. That's so important. Especially if you're a micro brand. Like, you're not a brand. You're not a household name. 99% of us are micro brands. And we've got to convince people to spend money or. as soon as it starts to smell fishy, they're going to go off to a competitor.

• Speaker #0

  Absolutely. And that's where it becomes crucial to understand what's the doubt. And it's not that obvious because analytics tool usually don't tell that, but conversation do.

• Speaker #1

  So what can you get? Give me an example of something that you can't get in analytics, what you can get in conversation.

• Speaker #0

  In conversation, you can go at the deepest level and adapt the conversation to the person. It's like when, let's take out the web component and think about when you're selling to a client one-on-one in a meeting, you hear what he's saying, his objections, his point of view. It can be even like his political view. And then you can leverage whatever he's telling you against him to sell whatever you're selling. The same thing can happen in a conversation when everything the person is saying, the AI analyze, understands, compare that to the behavior you just had on the website, and then uses the best leverage to sell the product.

• Speaker #1

  So how are you training the like ZipChat to actually take the place of a human and ask these kinds of questions or answer this? Is the company having to train it and dump a lot of their FAQs and data in there? I'm assuming as questions are answered. Another question is added to the database for the next time or someone checks sure it was accurate or how's that process work?

• Speaker #0

  So there are different ways. The first one is as soon as you start using Zipchot, for example, What we do, we take all the content you have on your website, not just the FAQ. We analyze everything, every piece of text you have around the website, the images, everything. And then we add in what we call the knowledge base. Then we invite you, and this is automatic, can take, depends how big your story is. But if it's very small, it can take like 10 seconds. If it's like a million pages, it can take like a few hours. After this, if you want, you can add additional knowledge base. This can be like additional sources. from PDF to whatever basically you have in your databases, kind of orders, conversation, previous conversation with customer service, stuff like that. On top of these, of course, you provide some instruction where you tell how Zipchat should behave in certain situations. You can explain the tone of voice, of course, you want Zipchat to have and this kind of stuff. At that point, this is what the brand does. And then For every conversation, you can analyze what the deep chat was saying on your behalf and then provide a correction. So you can keep giving this feedback loop to deep chat of what you would like deep chat to reply in a certain content. This usually, I mean, depends how many conversations are going on with the brand, but ideally the first two, three weeks, we recommend to do this on a daily basis. And this is what the brand...

• Speaker #1

  a log of what was asked by people and then correcting it.

• Speaker #0

  You have a conversation section, exactly like you would have on a live chat tool. Every conversation is separate. You see if it's happening on the website or if it's happening on WhatsApp, for example. And then you can provide these corrections and basically keep telling ZipShot how you would have replied to that specific question or during that conversation. On top of this, of course, we do benchmarking. So we analyze what kind of conversations are driving sales. This is of course done by AI. We don't do manually. It would be crazy. And then the AI keep improving depending on what's actually working for the brand, for the category, in general, in the commerce space, which is the space where we are moving. So it's very common that our clients start using ZipChat. They see a certain conversion rate I mean, almost immediately, second, third day. And this conversion rate keeps growing over time because not only, of course, the training of the brand gets better, so the AI knows better how to sell their products, but also in general, ZipShot AI gets better at selling products in general.

• Speaker #1

  Is this a custom system underneath it, or are you tying into one of the frontier models and just building rules on top of that?

• Speaker #0

  It's a mix in the sense that we use the LLMs. So we use on property, we use on OpenAI to do certain actions in the backend. We build our custom infrastructure on top of this.

• Speaker #1

  So you're just basically vectorizing and putting everything into a RAG system that can then answer everything?

• Speaker #0

  Yeah.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, cool. So what are some surprising things that you've found by, or maybe one of your customers has found, like when they're looking at the chat logs that, you know, like they study their analytics, they see the conversion numbers, they see, you know, all this stuff. And then they take a look at the chat and they're like, holy cow, we've had like seven people ask this question. We're not addressing it anywhere. We had no idea. What's something that you've seen that's made a huge difference when they address that issue on either on the landing page or in the sales process?

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. So if you talk about very structured brands, so usually it's not something they're missing on the UX or landing page. I mean, they run probably lots of the CRO on that, but it's usually a sub-segment of clients. They were not targeting in their marketing, but still is coming to their website and is asking questions if that product is good for the particular situation. and the practice basically no information on the website about that. An example that comes to my mind is this brand that they're selling hiking shoes. They're selling lots of them, like $15, $20 million per month in overall sales. And because one of the reports they ran through ZipShot, they found out lots of people were asking if the shoe was actually fine for something called the Morton Neurimas. I don't even know what's that exactly. And then they started to add this because they were only targeting about and talking about facilities and a few other things. But that one was like kind of a funny moment because it was the fourth, if I remember well, most asked, is this shoe fine for this problem?

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• Speaker #2

  One of the things that frustrates me when I'm trying to search and I'm going and using some form of chatbot is the loop. I don't know if you've ever done this. Like if you're looking for an airline customer service, which doesn't exist, or it could be just one of your favorite brands. And all of a sudden you go into the loop. You cannot get customer service. It doesn't accept the question or the question that you provide. doesn't give you the proper answer. So you try to rephrase and rephrase, and it just gives you that loop. And one of the things that I like, which is, the app was called Apex. I don't even know if it's still alive, but it might've kicked off. I don't know. But Apex gave us a real interesting instant problem solve. You had the ability to Go on, ask the question. If you got frustrated or if you just didn't get the answer, you had the chance to have email support or instant customer service. So now you're real time. And I do this with a client right now who is in the medical business. And so he needs to close these sales real time. And it's him that's doing it. So that's what's lacking with a lot of them. You'll see the hamburger, you know, the three lines. You drop down. It gives you no support except. you know either for email which is you're probably going to lose the conversion right there because it's not instant but a lot miss the ball because they don't offer real-time support you know what do you think about that so um in our specific case it really depends on how the merchant want to set up zipchat because um we

• Speaker #0

  are ai first so the entire platform is us it was going to be fully AI powered, but... of course, there can be a situation where the AI is not able to handle a certain conversation, as you mentioned, or you as a merchant, you don't want the AI to take care of this conversation. So we created a system that basically helped the AI to escalate the conversation to a human and the human can, of course, if the brand wants to do that, take over the conversation live, as you just mentioned, or certain brands, they don't want to have a person live, you know, That's also a big cost to have somebody monitoring all the chats. Basically, forward the entire conversation to an inbox, which will basically turn it into a ticket. And then the support team basically takes care of that. But yeah, this can happen. The good thing is that we are not in a very hyper-sophisticated industry in general. We don't work with airlines or banking, which It's where they try to implement chatbots forever and they usually go into this looping because everyone has different, very specific problems and they're usually not able to solve them. In e-commerce, like QE commerce, D2C, it's something, I mean, 92, 93% of conversation, we can completely handle them without escalating them to a human.

• Speaker #1

  And the thing is, what percentage of people do you find engage in a chat that hit a page? Is it 10% of the people that land on that page end up interacting with the chat, the agent, or what's like a... I know it's probably varies depending on the product, but what's like a rule of thumb?

• Speaker #0

  So it changes all the time, as you mentioned, and 10% is my goal. We're building Zipchat to be able to engage with 10, 15% of the people, but I would say the average is around 2, 2.5%.

• Speaker #1

  But of the people that do that, so if I get 100... If I get a thousand visitors to the website, you're saying about...

• Speaker #0

  25 of them will engage with the with zipchat with the chatbot and then out of those 25 i i think i saw a stat you said about almost one in five of those convert after yeah one of one or five is average across the board but all brands that have been using zipchat for a while and training properly um they can go like 25 30 percent we had like an outlier that reached an amazing 58 the last August, not this one, the previous one, with over like 2,000 or 3,000 sales. So like on a consistent number. But again, the average where we mentioned the website is 16.4, 16.5, something like that across the board.

• Speaker #1

  Do you find that a lot of people, like Norm said earlier, where he gets frustrated? Because that's like the old, the technology has moved ahead quite a bit lately. And like you said, the backend is the latest LLMs. Have you found that people are still resistant to use it because they've had experiences like Norm? And how do you overcome that? Like, hey, just interact with it. You know, this guy, this little bot, this little agent is pretty smart. How do you get them to not have the negativity that a lot of people that have had bad experiences in the past with a chatbot have? And they're like, ah, I ain't going to talk to that. It's a waste of time. I'm bouncing.

• Speaker #0

  So I would say that most people, they don't even realize it's an AI. They just think it's a live chat. We received a lot of people. lots of emails, so screenshots from our merchant to our success team, with screenshots of customers sending an email to congratulate, I don't know, John from the chat that was so amazing at serving them. John doesn't even exist, or like some Trustpilot review, like, you know, Sophie from the chat, from the support team is so nice, shandled all my questions and recommended an amazing product. I mean, This happens all the time, especially when the store is targeting an older audience. But with that being said, I wouldn't say this is the main issue. I think most people see the chat, think it's a trust sign because they believe somebody will reply to them. They don't realize it's going to be a chatbot or AI or a live agent. They see this, okay, the brand is accessible. Already this, on split test that some of our merchants run, increases the conversion rate of the page. It doesn't matter at this point if it's ZipChat or whatever other of the thousands of live agent chat there are. This already is a good sign that the website, the brand is accessible, especially if the brand is not known. This is a great trust sign. The second thing is that when they start chatting, our goal with ZipChat, because we charge per reply. So our model is based on the number of replies the merchant is going to use. Of course, we don't want to waste this reply for our merchants. The goal is always to provide a reply that is super comprehensive and basically fully answer the question or the situation or whatever the customer put inside the chat. So they usually don't end up in a loop. And yeah, it might be that one of the reasons they don't want to start the conversation is because they're scared. but To be honest, I don't believe. I believe this objection is more often among the merchants that they don't want to use ZipChat because they're scared the AI experience is not going to be good, but not like the final user, to be honest.

• Speaker #2

  Yeah, I'm sure this is a much better model than back a year or two ago. That was horrible back then. But now you're starting to see this all evolve. you know you know I'm wondering if an app like yours or something in the future can kind of test whether you're a tire kicker or you're actually willing or you're on the way to buying something, converting. Is there a weight given to the questions? Like, oh, this person is asking this question. They're about a 20% chance. And now there's going to be follow-up questions or comments that are going to try to. get them to come to 40 or 50% and then push them over the fence, you know, to actually buy. Is there a waiting system?

• Speaker #0

  It's actually not something we are doing,

• Speaker #1

  but it's actually a great idea. So thank you very much for it. I had a good idea of owning a potential great feature. Yeah, it's called Affiliate Commission, Norm.

• Speaker #2

  Affiliate Commission. But it would be great, though. because and especially smart like if if somebody's sitting on the fence you know i see this in amazon all the time it's you know when you go below the fold you've really got to convince people through your right now it's uh your a plus you know that the answers are there And that's where you're trying to push them over, or if they're asking questions, or in your reviews. But I'm sure there's a way to do this. I haven't thought about it yet.

• Speaker #0

  Absolutely. Well, it's definitely very interesting. It's something I will bring in internally because it's quite interesting. But I have actually a question for you for Amazon because I definitely have no experience on that. Don't either. Good. Joking, joking, joking. I know, Regarding Rufus AI, you as a seller, can you actually see what kind of questions people ask about your product?

• Speaker #1

  They don't give you the questions. You can see what's being asked. They show you like 5 to 15, but there's typically up to about 100. And there's ways to actually see what Amazon is choosing to put in the preset questions. And then that way you can actually go back and make sure your listing is actually answering those questions.

• Speaker #0

  but they don't let you see like how many people typed this or that or they don't get you don't get log access or anything to that as of this as of this moment um but that would be super valuable to get yeah and did you actually see an increase in conversions uh since the the the pre-filled questions buttons below the images have been added or not really i

• Speaker #1

  haven't i have not done testing myself on it online to see that. My stuff is seasonal. It just went up just in the fall. But Bradley Sutton from Helium 10 has said that he's done some testing, and he's seeing that a lot of it's not making a difference. Some people were asking, I don't know how much I put faith into his process, but he's saying it's not making a difference. It's still a work in process, but over the last Prime Day back in July, They said like 17% of the... queries were, searches and stuff were done on Rufus that led to, to sales. And if you look at stuff like walmart.com right now is saying that 20% of their outside traffic is coming from chat GBT, 20% is coming from chat GBT. Amazon has blocked it. Amazon has blocked chat GBT and all the others perplexed the end Gemini and all those guys from actually indexing their site because they're trying to protect their advertising revenue. Like people can go to chat and go straight to the listing, then they're not clicking on ads. They've put up a wall. There's still workarounds on that. But like what you just said is I just, I have an LLM with all my content. So I spent about eight grand, 10 grand developing an LLM that takes all like this podcast, Norm's podcast, my podcast, my newsletter, a whole bunch of other stuff and dumps it in. It's about over a thousand individual big pieces of content and you can chat with it. And I logged that and it's just... just at the time of this recording it's just getting off the ground and i was going to keep it behind a pay a wall but i set up a for a membership site but i and it still will be there but i set up another version on different urls basically a dupe of the bot that's just a different urls so i can cut that url off if i want i'm going to put that out there for like 30 days for free and let the whole world use it for free for 30 days for that exact reason to see what they're they're asking. to get all these questions because then I can take that and there's some really good AI tools. I'm sure some of your big clients are doing this already that you can create buyer profiles based on those chats. A lot of people say use the reviews right now or use the analytical data, but based on the chat history, and you could have done this with phone calls in the past, if you're taping all the phone calls and transcribing them, but that was a lot of work back in the days. A human had to transcribe it. AI couldn't do all this. Now with the chat, you can take that and create incredible... they are buyer profiles i just showed one to norm uh earlier today i don't know if he had a chance to look at yet but it's like detailed all the objections and all the pain points and what the typical person that asks this is it's amazing and then you change you write your copy your landing page aimed at that and i'm about to test it this week and but in theory from well i was at a conference where they talked about this and they're seeing massive lifts in conversion by doing that So having that data, it's one thing to take care of the customer. and get that 20 conversion uh when the ones are chatting but i think the data is super valuable and if people aren't taking advantage of that and and using that uh to fine-tune their marketing i think they're leaving a lot of a lot of money on the table yeah

• Speaker #0

  this is very like a very big gold mine that lots of people are actually underestimated right now and i would even like Like if I was...

• Speaker #1

  Using your software, I don't want them just to chat when they got a question or a problem. I would try to be encouraging them to chat just in general. I would be doing some sort of gamification. Stump, you know, when a free pro I'm just making stuff up off the fly here, but when a. If you're selling shoes, you know, take some of your excess inventory of shoes that you can't sell and use them as prizes and say, hey, win a free pair of shoes. See if you can answer three trivia questions or stump us. Stump Henry. Give it a name or whatever. Susie. Stump Susie. And ask a question. See what they're asking, you know, about our products or whatever. You'll find out a lot of other stuff, too. I mean, there's so many things you could do with this besides just. answering customer service type of things or helping close a sale.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah.

• Speaker #1

  Are you all doing any of that kind of stuff?

• Speaker #0

  I mean, we have a very open system. You can create basically everything you just mentioned by prompting it. We don't believe in creating flows. We believe flows are like, you know, the past. So all our annual updates are basically a structural way that you set up everything with prompts. Just to make you an example of where it really happens very well, it's the WhatsApp outbound marketing campaigns. WhatsApp is not very popular in the US, but in Europe it's huge. And our clients can create a campaign targeting people that bought a product the previous month, and from the campaign away, of course, the conversation will be completely adapted depending on the reaction and the feedback of the customer on that previous purchase and then bridge the conversation to an unanimous goal which is selling a bundle or something else so if the person will have like negative feedback for example the conversation will be um adjusted and adapted to uh proposing and promoting the bundle as a way to uh you know i'm sorry you bought this i don't know food supplement uh you didn't see results yet but but you need consistency. So... I can provide you a bundle with, I don't know, four months of products for the price of one month or something like that. It can be anything. If somebody is super happy, you can ask a review and then provide, again, the bundle as a token of appreciation. All this kind of stuff, again, completely prompted. And you can do pretty much anything you want. Collect reviews, ask for referrals do some quizzes uh collect emails and streamline streamline uh them to whatever other system marketing automation do you want to use? I mean, it's very versatile.

• Speaker #1

  I think you said a key point there. Most chats are on the website. I think you guys call it bubble chat or something. It's like on the website itself, you don't know who they are, but you have a system where you're getting them... And I'm curious how this works. You're getting them over to WhatsApp and the entire chat process takes place there. And by default there, or maybe they got to click a button in Europe or something, you know who they are. and you can do exactly what you just said you don't have to ask for an email it's very seamless and now you can remarket them like an example you just gave that's brilliant right there um how do you get them to get what's that process like to get them from on the bubble chat on the site to get them over to whatsapp how do you how do you do that so

• Speaker #0

  it really depends if the merchant wants to use whatsapp what you understand in a few sentences i must say not all the merchants understand it even like after weeks of conversations But I mean, this is years of experience in the field. But yeah, I mean, there's different ways, different models of bubble chat. If it's from the website, we can pop up like a QR code telling them scan this, get the 10% off. Like when you fill up a pop up and then the person is subscribed to the WhatsApp newsletter, or there is a double button. So you can decide to send the message in the chat on the website or if you prefer to WhatsApp. And again, if it's from a website, you can choose between opening WhatsApp on the computer or just scan the QR code. If it's from mobile, it's by default opening the WhatsApp app. Other ways, it's the chat itself recommending the WhatsApp. So after the conversation is going on, if the customer didn't leave the email or the number in the conversation, so as you mentioned, is not identified, in that case, it can decide interview itself to propose. a coupon code if they go on WhatsApp and do something. So there's different ways, different entry point.

• Speaker #2

  So are you building a community through WhatsApp? I did visit your site beforehand, but I'm just trying to visualize somebody goes to a website, something pops up, it takes them over to a WhatsApp group or WhatsApp. Yeah. I guess it's a WhatsApp group.

• Speaker #0

  No, it's not a group. It's a conversation. It's a one-on-one conversation. It's exactly like if you're building like an email list on Klaviyo, for example. okay so you can broadcast this com this uh this list but the problem with whatever is related to you know emails or sms i mean maybe uss sms is a little bit different us again uh but usually people don't reply at least in europe i don't know i'm not very familiar with sms marketing us but at least in europe they don't reply same as email it's great for doing marketing but the Good thing about WhatsApp is that you start a conversation and the tool is designed to start conversation. If you think about it, if you send an SMS kind of marketing promotion on WhatsApp, people will just report you and the number will be probably blocked because they're used to conversation, not to mass promotion. So the best way we saw our merchant doing this is by launching a marketing campaign that doesn't look like a marketing campaign. So it's a support marketing campaign, if you can call it that way. So it's like, hey, Kevin, I was just checking in. Last month, you bought this backpack from us. How do you find it? Do you like it? How could it be better? A feedback would be very appreciated. By the way, I'm Luca from whatever name of the brand is. So this kind of message doesn't sound like a spammy or very aggressive one. I can also say something like, if you give me just a small feedback, I can provide you a coupon. And then the conversation starts. And as soon as the person replies, the eye... will be able to reply to this message after a few seconds or after a minute or whatever to simulate like a more human interaction and the conversation will be one-to-one super adapted to to kevin uh you know push history and previous behavior and conversation so basically what we uh already know about how he talks and

• Speaker #1

  and this is super powerful because later on you can propose the promotion or start something else so your bot ties into their to their crm so it knows Like I placed five orders in the past for the supplement. order on this or you can actually tie in to customize it to that level?

• Speaker #0

  We get that from Shopify. Most of our clients are on Shopify, so we have a Shopify app. For all the other platforms, they have to do some API connection.

• Speaker #1

  So that WhatsApp, if I... You might have a great me over there using one of the methods you just said, and I have my conversation today, I'm done. But a month and a half from now, I'm like, man, I got a question. Can I go back into WhatsApp? and initiate that conversation and your ai picks up where it left off or so you can go back to the website so they can do the whole thing uh even a month later in there and say hey i need to order some more is it egyptic enough where i can actually place an order on oh this you could it should be and place an order on shopify and tell it hey order some go on whatsapp order me some more of whatever that thing is that we talked about uh last month so the purchase inside the chat is a feature we are launching very soon but it's not

• Speaker #0

  available so right now you would right now it would just give you the um the url of the product you want to purchase send to shopify or whatever is the platform but now with the last you know update of uh shopify of the past few days uh it should be possible to actually do this inside the chat so it's what we are working on yeah with that new protocol um that's that's so this do you find that

• Speaker #1

  younger, is there an age thing on this? I mean, like you said that in the US, a lot of people do use WhatsApp. It's not nearly as popular as Europe or Latin America, but they do, it is used. But do you find that the younger generation is much more willing to do chats than the older generation or is it the other way around?

• Speaker #0

  I would say older generations, they chat to get an answer immediately. Younger generation, they use to ask more questions. don't know if it makes sense so the younger generation asks more questions ask more questions in the say in the way that they're more used to chat with somebody so it's more like a back and oh they use it more they use it yeah like they do longer conversations like all the generations are more like uh one very well structured question uh for which the answer is gonna be already super comprehensive and answer all their you know doubts for the youngest it's more uh like a small piece of question, and then a back and forth with lots of other small questions.

• Speaker #1

  Hey, Kevin King and Norm Farrar here. If you've been enjoying this episode of Marketing Misfits, thanks for listening this far. Continue listening. We've got some more valuable stuff coming up. Be sure to hit that subscribe button if you're listening to this on your favorite podcast player, or if you're watching this on YouTube or Spotify, make sure you subscribe to our channel because you don't want to miss a single episode of the Marketing Misfits. Have you subscribed yet, Norm?

• Speaker #2

  Well, this is an old guy alert. Should I subscribe to my own podcast?

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, but what if you forget to show up one time? It's just me on here. You're not going to know what I say.

• Speaker #0

  I'll buy you a beard and you can sit in my chair too. And we'll just, you can go back and forth with one another. Yikes. But that being said, don't forget to subscribe, share it. Oh, and if you really like this content, somewhere up there, there's a banner. Click on it and you'll go to another episode of the Marketing Misfits.

• Speaker #1

  Make sure you don't miss a single episode because you don't want to be like Norm.

• Speaker #0

  So is this app affordable for SMBs or small brands, or is this more for the intermediate to larger brands?

• Speaker #2

  So we start from $49 per month. This would cover approximately 150 conversations. Again, at the conversation rate we were mentioning, without considering WhatsApp, of course, because that's another step. I mean, it's included, but of course, if you launch lots of campaigns, there's going to be more conversation. but only the the chat bubble on the website that would you know mean i don't know between 7 000 and 10 000 visitors on your website per month so that's you know where we we start we start working with like you know brands and all awards we have brands that have like i don't know five million visitors per month on their website uh others would like two million but yeah in general generally speaking they're oidc we have this brand for example This is a Chinese brand selling to US, I think is one of the 600 top. Shopify brands out there, according to some databases, they make like 800K in sales from the chart. I mean, attributed to the chart every single month and they pay us not even $2,000 per month.

• Speaker #1

  True. I mean, at $49 a month, everybody should have... If you got any kind of decent traffic, you should have this on there. I mean,

• Speaker #2

  we also have super small shops that they just don't want to check support, so they don't habilitate or activate any escalation system. But at least they have somebody or something to reply to random questions that may arrive every week. Again, if they can afford it, it's perfect. Of course, some people still, with super small business, they don't prioritize this. They're just looking for more traffic. It's totally fine to us.

• Speaker #1

  I mean, I can see someone coming in.

• Speaker #0

  yeah go ahead yeah so forget the uh the small medium-sized businesses and brands can you do this with an agency so you might have 10 different brands that you're representing and you will yeah and you want to get them to start communicating through the whatsapp is that possible so i'm not sure you have an agency that represents 10 different brands And you want, instead of going to Slack or going to whatever communications channel that you're using with them, can you set this up in WhatsApp using an app like yours?

• Speaker #2

  For like agency to the bands that they're managing.

• Speaker #0

  So if they have questions, it goes over there and we have one communication channel.

• Speaker #2

  I mean, theoretically, you can set it up like this. It's not really built for this, I would say. It's more like you manage the 10 different channels of WhatsApp of these clients with ZipShot.

• Speaker #0

  I just think this is, I think this sounds very interesting to, like, as long as you train the, you know, the app properly, this could handle a ton of questions that are multiple questions coming in from multiple clients.

• Speaker #2

  Yeah, I mean, that's exactly what Zipchat is for. So again, it's super versatile. I never used this or saw this use case particularly, but... Oh,

• Speaker #0

  we'll have to talk.

• Speaker #2

  Absolutely.

• Speaker #1

  I see it, Norm, like on the front end of Dragonfish, not so much on the back end, maybe at this point, that would, I think, a different system, but like on the front end where people are like asking standard questions, they constantly be feeded and learn. but i could see where agentic commerce is going to change this even more where you can go into the chat and you can just say hey do you got any new colors or is there any new sizes uh oh yeah we got red okay order it for me and send it to me and that's you're done and then the a and within whatsapp it takes care of all goes into shopify and maybe it says would you like to use the card ending of nine three four eight um you're like yep that's fine and all right it's orders place it's on its way and totally agentic uh and and like I think chat's going to grow up more than what people have been used to, and the power is going to be even more coming. What do you think on that, Luca?

• Speaker #2

  Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the things you can do through a conversation that until last year, I mean, we were used to generative AI. So you ask something, you get the reply. That's it. Now, the ability to perform action in other systems, I mean, it's basically limitless what you can do. It's just about, you know, making it possible. So just imagine like getting refunds, you upload the picture, the AI analyzes the picture, understands if the product is really damaged, and then it issues the refunds immediately to the card. you basically purchase with or adding items to the order. I mean, there's pretty much everything you can do.

• Speaker #0

  All right, guys, we're at the top of the hour. Luca, was there anything that we missed out that you want to talk about?

• Speaker #2

  Don't be scared about AI. That's something else I saw a lot recently. People get very scared when they see you and LinkedIn all this crazy innate automation with AI and they think, okay. This is going to be super complex. I don't want to dig into it. But at the end of the day, those are mostly engagement farming posts. Usually, that flows. They don't really work at scale, at least what we saw with most of our clients. So there's lots of easy solutions. Zipchat is one of those. Plug and play.

• Speaker #1

  And it's zipchat.ai, right? Yeah, zipchat.ai.

• Speaker #2

  And they also have a discount if anybody wants to try it out. We have seven day free trial, 30 day money back guarantee. We give a success manager to any account regardless of the size of the account. So it's very easy to implement and be sure everything is set up properly. And on top of these, I can add like a 10% off forever on any plan, by using the coupon code, the podcast10.

• Speaker #0

  Awesome. Okay, perfect. And the contact information.

• Speaker #2

  Yeah, you can contact me on LinkedIn, Luca Borreani, or by email, luca.zipchat.ai. Super simple. So I'm super available.

• Speaker #0

  Okay, fantastic. So at the top of the hour, we always ask our guests if they know a misfit.

• Speaker #2

  Yeah, actually, there's this friend of mine. It's called Mick. He's a very great... Italian marketer. He has like thousands of students as well, big companies. Yeah, I will make the intro. Mikio Cosentino is the name.

• Speaker #0

  Okay, very good. All right. So I am going to remove you. Don't go away because we've got to upload your episode, but I'll remove you now and we'll talk to you later.

• Speaker #2

  Absolutely. Thank you very much, guys.

• Speaker #1

  Thank you. Appreciate it. Thanks, Luca. Norm, just imagine if you could turn me into a chatbot and then you could just hit mute anytime. You could just ask me. You could get all your questions in and I don't have a chance to answer. I mean, just think if I was just a chatbot.

• Speaker #0

  I would constantly interview. I would see bubble, bubble, bubble. Stop. What about this?

• Speaker #2

  A little notch.

• Speaker #1

  Oh, no. Do, do, do, do,

• Speaker #2

  do.

• Speaker #0

  Stop. Stop. Why does your voice get on your nerves too? Buh-buh-buh-buh-buh. Interrupt.

• Speaker #1

  No, I mean, this stuff, as you just explained, it's come a long way from where I was.

• Speaker #0

  Oh, yeah.

• Speaker #1

  And it's getting more powerful, and it's something that I think almost everybody, I mean, after talking with him right here, I'm like, man, I need to go add ZipChat to a couple of my sites right now and just test this out. That's the... especially if you're using Shopify, like he said, you know, we have another episode with Scott Cunningham, who's like one of the top Shopify guys. So it'd be interesting to ask him if he's seen anything in regards to how chat is making a difference, but the seamless plug into Shopify should be a no brainer for everybody.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, absolutely. The episode really, you know, gives us some thought, well, the backend and the front end. There's lots of opportunities here. So yeah. Can't wait to look into ZipChat. So ZipChat.ai. Yep,

• Speaker #1

  ZipChat.ai. You know, the other smart thing to do is to always listen to the Marketing Misfits podcast. Because if you're not listening to the podcast, you're missing out on some cool stuff. Because we're here every single Tuesday. Isn't that right? Isn't that normal?

• Speaker #0

  And you don't want to miss out on Kevin's cool new shades.

• Speaker #1

  that's right yeah if you're listening to this and you're not watching it on youtube you can't or shopify video you can't see my cool new my cool new shades uh and so check us out on youtube it's at marketingmisfits.com we'll take the links there we'll take you to uh take you to youtube or you can actually just go straight to youtube type marketing misfits and it'll it'll pop up and uh We have 70-some-odd, probably 80. some odd episodes in there with some, some really amazing people, some really amazing subjects. So pick a couple and listen to them. The next time you're driving around the car, taking a trip, you're flying somewhere, taking one of those 400 flights that Lucas taken, put on the, put on the headset and listen to the marketing misfits and Norm's voice will put you right to sleep.

• Speaker #0

  There we go. There we go. All right. Good night, everybody. All right. We'll see you later.

• Speaker #1

  See you next time. Take care.