Transcription

• Speaker #0

  You become as boring and uninteresting as possible because what a narcissistic individual is looking for is a supply. The supply gives that emotional charge, that dopamine hit, but what are your values? What are your interests? Probably your values around relationship aren't about being transactional.

• Speaker #1

  Eventually it's not even the person who caused the harm in the beginning continue to do this. Eventually you just kind of start doing this to yourself. and your body is somewhat conditioned to feel that way. Taylor, my best friend, thank you so much for coming back onto the show. I know a while ago, we did an episode on narcissistic relationships, especially with romantic partners or their ex-partners. And, you know, we are so blown away. by your knowledge and you're here today to share more about what it means to be in a narcissistic relationship, whether it is romantically or it could be, you know, with your family members. And prior to jumping onto the call, you also mentioned there are so many aspects to it. I'm just going to have you explain to us what that means because I'm here to learn and also identify I personally, in a narcissistic way, relationship. Maybe I am. I'm pretty sure I am. But before we start, I'm going to have you do a quick two sentence, maybe three sentences self-introduction for the listeners who are not as familiar with you.

• Speaker #0

  Absolutely. So yes, my name is Taylor Simon. I'm a licensed marriage family therapist here in California. specializing in narcissistic abuse recovery, especially within family systems, and largely using somatics and expanded states work, including breathwork and ketamine, to support that recovery process.

• Speaker #1

  It's God's work that you're doing. I mean, there are so many people who are suffering and even probably doesn't even know they are in a very painful state. And, you know, one thing you mentioned before we jump on the call is to name what is a narcissistic relationship. whether it is romantic or with family system. Can you share a little bit about how can we identify that whether we're not in a narcissistic relationship?

• Speaker #0

  Absolutely. You know, I think in romantic relationships, there can be such a contrast to noticing the behavior someone is bringing towards us compared to growing up in a family system in which there are narcissistic features because when we grow up in that environment, it's like a fish in water. It can be really hard to tell that that is what's happening. And so things that someone might notice about their family, if there's more of this narcissistic dynamic going on, is that there's probably one person in the family that everyone else is moving around. They kind of act as the sun. And that's usually actually a quite dysregulated person. Maybe there's elements of addiction or mental health on top of you real self-orientation. And rather than the family system seeking to ask, how do we work with the source of unhappiness or dysfunction? Everyone starts to actually move around that person. And to work with them, they become kind of the center of the family. We might know that we're in a family like this if it's about hierarchy. Who's in the one up? Who's in the one down? Who is being given special treatment or favor for some reason? And who are filling more typical outcast roles such as the forgotten child or perhaps even the scapegoat who finds themselves in a predicament of receiving an undue amount of blame and responsibility for the family dynamic, usually as a result of trying to name it. And the system keeps a kind of homeostasis. And so people tend to fall into certain roles. And so identifying kind of those common features can really help us notice like, wow, this archetype of relating is so familiar and really notice that this is a system that we are within.

• Speaker #1

  That's so fascinating. When you were talking, I was just trying to relate it to my own family. I can definitely think of a person who everyone just like, like, revolve. What's the word? Evolve? No, like move things around this particular person. I don't think I ever thought I was in a narcissistic relationship. I thought that just how life was supposed to be. And I don't think anybody complained about it. I think everyone just accepted that was their life.

• Speaker #0

  That's right. It's all we know, right? Relationships and families like this feel more transactional. There may be the way that we connect may be through pain and arguments. It may be through favors and acting as a kind of extension of the family. And so rather than family being about. closeness, mutuality, the respect of really like seeing each other's dignity and difference. It's more about who's in and who's out and about really avoiding that out position because there are such high consequences. In a family like this, along with a scapegoat, there's typically a golden child. Good news, bad news. If you're an only child, you will probably find yourself in both roles. And so at times you may be perfect, untouchable, the most beautiful representation of this family? And at times you can do nothing right. You are the whole cause. In fact, an old story in families like this, oh, if you would just stop complaining, everything's fine.

• Speaker #1

  Right. I mean, you know, as an only child, while you were trying to explain golden child versus scapegoat, I was like, I don't really know which one I was. Not to say like, to this day, I don't know if I was in an actual narcissistic family system. My family had a lot of issues. So, I mean. Who knows what intertwined with what? But I would say for me, why do we, I mean, it seems like it's working, right? We talked about a kind of capped family in homeostasis. How do you pronounce that?

• Speaker #0

  Yeah,

• Speaker #1

  homeostasis. And so it has to, like, it's working to a certain degree. Do we need to fix it? And the children or the family member, are they so negatively impacted? by this system that they have to seek help? Or do you think this is a self-contained process that it's okay to stay in as long as we don't go to the extremes?

• Speaker #0

  So there are a lot of different ways in which this might show up to varying degrees of intensity. And so some of it might come down to that, right? Like how much can I tolerate staying, you know, okay, protected or healthy within an unprotected, unsafe... unhealthy dynamic. And so we might say like, oh, the golden child must be having such a good time, right? Like they're getting all these benefits. Often if there's financial abuse, this is the person who will receive the most, right? They're getting heaped all this praise. And so you might think like, oh, it seems like the system's great for everyone but the scapegoat. In fact, the golden child will actually be encouraged and molded to be an extension of the culture of the family. And in this way, they act. become more and more invested, right? Because there are such high rewards. However, regardless of your role in the family, the experience of being unseen for who you are, there being ways in which you're idealized or devalued that are for the system's health, not yours. There are ways in which we all become objects within this system. It's a deeply personal decision about whether we can stay engaged. And what we see are a lot of people, at least in this culture here, going no contact with family members or siblings because there is such a new awareness of how damaging this is truly for everyone involved, even those who really feel like they're having a good time, right? Even for the narcissist themselves, like why are these behaviors happening that there's such a fragility inside that they only know how to connect around power, pain, praise, but rather than just like, I'm myself, you're yourself, and there we meet.

• Speaker #1

  Okay. I. wonder if there's also like a cultural aspect to it. I think American society is more individualism where I will take care of myself, you take care of you and peace, right? But in Asian culture, I feel like family were just always in your life and everything you do, someone's going to have an opinion. There has to be some sort of like a leader and like. people have to listen to this one person and they usually are the elderly right and i can see how it's like a generational thing the golden child to kind of become this quote-unquote leader but in actuality they're just toxic right but like how does cultural influence play into this or is this more just like it really does not matter what country or what like culture that you're in it's more just like a dysfunctional family system that just happened to be in every single culture

• Speaker #0

  This is so necessary to talk about because in reality, it just doesn't work for all of us to just say, well, I'm just going to cut them off. This is unrealistic for so many reasons. A lot of them are just personal. Like I actually would like to have some relationship with my family. But a lot of it is cultural, right? It's very white American to just say the individual path, right? And so a lot of this may come down to the really subtle skills that we teach around how we carry and work. with ourselves to be both in integrity in our self-relationship, right? I'm not self-abandoning when I am with my family. but also to be still engaged, right? But there is a way in which when we can grieve the family system that never was, when we can process how it was for us to have parenting that was not what we needed, there's a way in which we can actually be closer to the family that hurts us because we can really accept them for who they are. We don't live in a fantasy that they're going to show up as someone else. And in that way, we can actually be closer. We can actually, in a way, enjoy them more because we're really actually seeing them for who they are. and knowing ourselves more deeply in a way that can actually change quite a lot in the full dynamic.

• Speaker #1

  Okay, I have to challenge that one.

• Speaker #0

  Please.

• Speaker #1

  And I don't challenge in terms of what you said. I challenge in terms of how one should think about it.

• Speaker #0

  Please.

• Speaker #1

  I don't particularly think that I am an unforgiving person, but I also think that it depends on what you have done to me, that whether it had triggered my core wound, right? And I think that... It's great what you said where I know myself and I accept this person and this person and I maybe will grow together, grow closer. But honestly, half the time, I don't want to. Like, I don't want to be close to you because you are fundamentally a piece of shit. Like, I genuinely don't really think that. you are aware what is causing the drama in your life. And I feel my involvement will just keep hurting myself. There's one person I don't talk to. But other than that, I'm in a relationship with every single family members that I have. But I also know that there's a new phenomenon where people don't contact their family members anymore because they were just in this pile of shit when they were younger and they're resentful. Which one's healthier? Which one's better? Which one's easier? Which one's better for the future? And like your future children, like, you know, your spouse. I know it probably is way more complicated than one answer, but I just think that there are still value in walking away. If I'm making the effort and the other person's like, I'm good. This is who I am. I just accept who I am. Like, fuck you. I feel like I'm so angry right now. It's intense.

• Speaker #0

  Okay. What I hear when you're saying that, I mean, it really started. with the beginning of your share, right? Which was like, I don't want to be in relationship. What I'm hearing is a really embodied sense, right? A real clarity around what your body is telling you about being in relationship, right? There's a lot around like, what can I feel into this? Can we build a bridge? Now, it just might not be possible, right? And so that you're right, you're feeling the anger, right? What's anger? It's like this energy when a boundary has been cross to push away. It sounds like the embodied experience you're having is it cannot be in integrity and self-respect in proximity to this person. That's really so much of the answer, right? It's hard to say that it's all just one way. Oh, you know, I think it's a really personal decision that no one else can make for us around whether we go low contact or no contact with our own family. That's something we may even try and experiment different things with. But I do believe very strongly in listening to our body, right? Because so much of the gaslighting and the confusion of being raised in an environment like this is that we learn to not trust ourself or our inner voice because there's been, there have been so many people telling us that our experience isn't real. Well, this isn't happening. No, it's just you. You're just being fill in the blank. And so I think learning to listen to our body, even when, oh my God, I feel so much guilt, but my body is calm. oh my God, I'm having so many thoughts. Like I must just be the worst person, but I cannot move forward. Like I cannot bring my body to step forward. I think that kind of integration of really tracking ourselves is so important when making these really big, sometimes first decisions to walk away because there's so much in us conditioned to stay attached and to stay engaged. And so I really trust your body.

• Speaker #1

  You know, I think you're right. Think. I'm sure I'm not the only person, but a lot of time that the way how we are brought up is that we had to think about whether something is good or bad logically, and we make a decision and we write out the pros and cons, which is great. Like whoever's doing it, keep at it. But my journey have been shifted to let my body make the decision. I think that we're we all know how we would truly feel in certain situations. Even like say, not take a moment like to feel, but you just know that you're going to be unhappy. But we do the quote unquote right thing because we don't want to be perceived under a negative light or in a negative light, however you say it. And I think that causes so much misery. And I think that this cycle of just feeling underappreciated worthiness eventually is not even the person who caused the harm in the beginning continue to do this you continue to do this to you eventually you just kind of start doing this to yourself that's right because you just that's what you're used to and your body is somewhat conditioned to feel that way am i leaping too far like is this correct

• Speaker #0

  No, I mean, there is just no, this really is right on. Right. This is why it's so important that we build a relationship to our really our feelings. Emotions are mostly interpreted as stories. You ask people how they're feeling. Well, this is going on. And so I'm anxious. Right. The feeling is actually the sensation in the body. And we've typically, but especially in families like this, have been encouraged to override or go against. our nervous system and our somatic cues, right? The feeling, well, when I'm near you, I feel scared. I feel small. I want to do this. We've had to override that so much to stay connected that we have almost no relationship to it. And so that's why such a foundational part of the recovery process is about processing historical emotions so that we're a clearer channel to understand what we're feeling here and now and to begin to speak the language of the body because there's so much. intelligence and knowing and truth, but it doesn't speak the language of the mind. And so we need to be in that self-relationship enough to trust what's coming up and allow those other cues to lead rather than our mind, which thinks it's the best place, the best part of us to be in leadership of our whole system. But that's where all the old stories are. That's where all those self-limiting beliefs are. And so taking in the whole self to better understand where we're at is such a necessary part. part of this.

• Speaker #1

  Is this too early to talk about Taylor Frankie Paul? Because I can't wait to, I feel like this is the perfect segue, right? So for the listeners, me and Taylor, we were going to do commentary videos on the new Bachelorette, Taylor Frankie Paul. And unfortunately, due to different reasons, her season got pulled, to which I still think is a marketing thing. I think it's coming back. So if it does come back, we'll do the episodes. But as of right now. We were just talking about how she is somebody who went through therapy sessions. I would say four years or something. A while. Because I do watch The Sacred Lives of Mormon Wives, to which I get a headache every time if I watch 10 episodes in one setting, which is probably not the healthiest thing to do. But you said something to me when we were texting. You said, Taylor is somebody who knows what she's supposed to do, but her knowledge has not integrated into her body. So she's still making... the choices that she might regret later. Tell us more. Where, how, I guess like what makes you say that, number one? Number two, how can she make a difference in her day-to-day behavior? And how can the listeners learn from her as well as some of the steps that we can take to make differences in our life?

• Speaker #0

  Absolutely. You know, of course, we're getting such a limited slice of really seeing her, right? And so I'm just doing a little guesswork. based off of what I've seen. But my observation as a therapist, but not her therapist, is that over the seasons of Secret Lives, you can actually track her therapeutic progress in terms of her ability to have insight. Her insight around her patterns and her cycles, you can actually see it deepen, right? Her self-reports. By the most recent season, she is naming exactly what's happening, why it's happening, how she got here. But we still see her engaged in the same process, right? She can name, I'm addicted to this conflict and sex cycle, this intensity with Dakota, but she actually can't separate from it. Now, on one hand, part of it is the setup of production that they do want her triggered. And so in some ways, the conditions make it she can't get away. But how is it that she has all this beautiful insight, but really such low behavioral integration? And I suspect that the emotions tied to the trauma that she does understand. are so strong that they really override her prefrontal cortex, the part of her that might stay online with those stories, right? She's going totally into the amygdala, total fight and flight. And so you see her have these huge responses. My wish or curiosity might be to invite her to some more somatic work. The amount of trauma that is stored in her body that it kind of, you know, And we say in trauma work, there's a top. down approach. I think about the problem and then I go to how I feel and where it lives in me. I think that she might be a really good candidate for some bottom-up work, which is to start with her body. What's stored there, right? Because those old stories are still running. And unless she includes somatics in her work, her body will not know that she is here and now. Her body is still there and then, even as her insight and her mind might be in the here and now. And I think that that integration would be really powerful. I know that they do ketamine infusions in Utah. They show it on the show. But I think a relational process of ketamine-assisted psychotherapy with her might allow her to process through some of the more intense experiences in her body without it overwhelming her nervous system and thus recreating this overriding cycle. I think actually it could be quite supportive. But there are many, many ways to do somatic work and include the body.

• Speaker #1

  Talk to us about the ketamine relationship therapy that you just mentioned. I hope I named it right. I know that you and I talked about back and forth, like, should we have that as a topic on the podcast? And I always kind of was like hesitant about it because I don't, I just don't know enough, right? So without, you know, like going too in depth, maybe we'll do a separate episode on that. But like, just how, in her case, how would ketamine therapy help her?

• Speaker #0

  You know... What I always tell folks is there are so many ways that ketamine might want to show up. You know, typically we'll do a protocol, which means a series of sessions.

• Speaker #1

  What is ketamine?

• Speaker #0

  Ketamine is a dissociative anesthetic that was previously used only in the medical field, but found to induce, you know, it's an off-label use for treatment-resistant depression treatment. And they are seeing what else it might be supportive for. And so in my experience, I've also worked with people with... PTSD, CPTSD, anxiety, and neurodivergent burnout. So these are all things that can really be supported through this work. Ketamine, the expanded states work, it allows us to get new perspectives on similar things. But because of that dissociative anesthetic quality, there can actually be a kind of pain relief in being with what's really hard, right? People will often say to me. oh, I thought about the thing that triggers my anxiety or the thing that is at the heart of my trauma, but I was able to stay with it and see it in a new way or from a distance, right? Less identified with it. And that kind of thing can create a really big shift inside. And so something I might see for her is the way in which she might be able to be with the relational hurt that's happened in a way that's not so overwhelming. Because what are PTSD symptoms? They're like, The pieces of shrapnel sticking out of the skin, right? They are showing us where a process is incomplete. It's actually attempting to come to completion. The system is just overwhelmed by it. So this is an assistive aid. I would recommend ketamine-assisted psychotherapy over infusions for her for the idea of having a therapist with her there the whole time because there's so much relational trauma that having a relational process, someone who's there with her, someone to hold her hand. Her saying that she can reach out for help and someone is going to be there for her without strings, without blame, without guilt, and just hold her in that space I think would be really reparative. Because what we're seeing, at least on TV, is really, really harmful relationships with her family. That they will blame her, that they will advocate for unhealthy relationships, that they will devalue her.

• Speaker #1

  I get so stressed. One, and I'm kidding.

• Speaker #0

  I mean,

• Speaker #1

  it's so like, I absolutely cannot tolerate when your own family cannot support you in the healthiest way. And I feel like her parents, and without knowing them as people, I just can't even fathom how can you say the things that you say to your daughter.

• Speaker #0

  That's right. It's so hurtful when you see it from the outside. And it's so normalized that I don't think it. You know, only in the recent season do we see Taylor even say, like, I'm the child, you're the parent. Why are you talking to me this way? Her whole family system's in. You see her brother do the same thing. And so, you know, her having someone in her life who's a secure attachment, someone who's just going to be really supportive and present for her without putting all that on her, I think could be really healing.

• Speaker #1

  Absolutely. So the reason why, let's say, hypothetically, a person... coming from a narcissistic family, and then they start getting into relationships with people who are narcissists. As a grown-up, even with years of therapy, they still choose a person who could potentially harm them, whether emotionally, mentally, or even physically. Is it because their body has not yet released the trauma, so they're looking for some... things similar or more familiar or is it because they're just haven't done enough work? Like to understand, you know, the choices we make in life could lead down to different paths.

• Speaker #0

  For some people, we are trying to rewrite the past and finally have a new ending. OK, and so sometimes this might be why we find ourselves in the same relationship. No matter how you feel about what I'm about to say, I do believe that this is true. Our romantic and erotic templates come from our family system. And what is definitely true about the nervous system is that it's not. checking for safe, unsafe, okay? The nervous system is looking for familiar, unfamiliar, okay? And so the idea of, wow, I really feel at ease with a narcissistic individual. Yeah, that's familiar to the nervous system, even if I've done a lot of work. So I think the difference between am I trying to rewrite the past versus, wow, I can really see that I've processed this, is the aspect of discernment. Well, can I tell, right? Like, ooh, that's really yummy to me, but I know this, I'm familiar with this, right? This is going to give me that kind of sugar high that has a high crash, right? Like, ooh, ooh, that narcissistic pull, right? So familiar. Ooh, there is just something attractive in that. But I have the discernment to say, you know what? This hangover is not worth it. The risk is not worth it. I can identify where my pattern is and still make a different choice.

• Speaker #1

  Let's say that we're, not we are dating a person, but if somebody is dating a person, I'm just thinking, what if like this one time I can change a person? There's one time this person changed for me for the better. I get to rewrite my history. I get to almost put the love back into me by making the choice to stay and work on a relationship that was initially, you know, might not be in the healthiest way. But eventually I made it happen. Wouldn't that give me more sense of worthiness and almost like I repaired? myself. I grew more faith in my capability in a relationship. I can see how somebody who didn't grow up with the healthiest relationship kind of reliving the same life over and over again until, or at least until they think that they can, they can do something different this time around. Even though, you know, there's thousands of cases out there saying they can't. Like, what would you, how would you help those people? Or how would you? what would you say to those people?

• Speaker #0

  Okay, so you'll confirm that I'm understanding your question correctly if my answer is a fit. No, listen, we're going to get in relationships with people who are in progress, right? What's the difference between someone who is narcissistic and someone who's just a little unhealthy or just like a little self-centered or just hasn't learned certain skills, right? That we are able to discern, are we on a growth path together? I'm trying and this person is also trying. Well, then we're talking about a reparative experience in terms of, wow, someone wants to work on themselves for us and I want to work on myself for us and we grow together. That's such a different experience than the type of experience we're having with these narcissistic family systems, right? The narcissistic parent is never really going to say that it was, they're never really going to take responsibility. Things aren't going to change. Maybe they even say like, yeah, I totally hear you. Of course, I'm taking this in. But behaviorally, everything still continues on. And so if you're in a relationship with someone that really matches that template, this idea of, wow, I can change them, it's going to be really dissatisfying. It's going to be so frustrating. Now, let's just, I'm going to join you. I'm going to say, okay, my heart's wish for you is not that you have a life experience that's rewarding because you've reaffirmed, wow, I can earn love by fixing and changing other people. What I want for you is a life experience that says, I am worth people who are interested in me and I have the power of discernment, self-trust, and integrity to take care of myself because now we've shifted your life satisfaction from externalized into your partner back internalized into the self-relationship, right? That core anchor. Because let's say you get lucky and you do fix someone, if that's the kind of dynamic you want to be in, probably then the brain goes, okay, I will keep with this pattern, but we're going to meet other people and lives. bosses, other things where this strategy just can't happen. And so also having those internal skills of. I trust myself to make the best choices I can. I have self-compassion when I make the misstep and I see my value and expect that in a relationship. I mean, that's a kind of loyalty you will not find outside of yourself.

• Speaker #1

  Agreed. I do agree with you. I do think that everything should come from you. Okay, so for people who have not started this journey, what's like the one thing they can do today to gain that level of... self-love or self-caring?

• Speaker #0

  You know what I would really love for people to do who are just beginning, right? Because there is actually a whole phase of the process of recovery of just acknowledging the truth of our situation, right? For so often it's, well, I have to complete my role or I'll be abandoned. Well, I only have value if I'm showing up in this way. Well, I can't trust myself. In each and every person I work with, there is a flicker of the inner healer, that true self that says like something doesn't feel right here. And so one, for people to just start noticing that feeling, right? Like something's bringing people to therapy to see me, even if they have not yet identified, my family system really hurts me. And so that one, there's this leap of faith on that part that knows inside. But then just to simply start somatic tracking, right? Like, wow how do I feel when I'm with this person? Does it evoke a lot of self-blame? Do I feel I have to perform? Does it get that need for external validation? Does it play on that? Or is it congruent? Wow, I am talking to you and I feel good inside. And just starting to notice where there's that mismatch. Because I think if people can just increase awareness of that and they might just be able to say, wow, well, this is my parent, but every time I leave, I'm filled with this agony of both being unseen and feeling guilty, right? To me, this is a huge hallmark of... this relationship's just not right. Or if people have been telling their parent or whoever this is, hey, I really need something different. Start to track the behavior, okay? Do words match actions and start to notice, right? Is this person solid? I think that just increasing awareness is the perfect first step.

• Speaker #1

  Right. Were you the one who I interviewed where we were talking about romantic relationships. And I remember this guest said, don't be...

• Speaker #0

  too worried when we don't be just too worried when relationships are bad also be very worried when relationships are too good it might be you because I feel we were talking about how to spot out like somebody who could potentially be a narcissist right this aspect of idealizing seeing where it's like being put on this pedestal wow you're so amazing you're so great right this might be typical in a love bombing phase but also to see where it feels really good in the family. Like, oh my God, well, my parent, we're gossiping together now. Okay, well, now I'm part of their process. Ooh, my parent asked me to message my sibling, like, oh, you really need to come back to the family or you need to do something, right? Well, now I'm part of a triangulation, okay? So there are ways in which being favored, feeling like a golden child, it's not as great as it sounds. There are ways in which this really hurts us, right? And so just noticing like, wow, I'm getting a lot of favor from my parent. finally okay we'll notice who's in the one down position right like how are you complicit to this system and participating when it feels good where this is like the core issue with privilege oh well as long as it's not happening to me i don't mind what happens to other people or what's better to happen to them i don't i don't want to experience that the true liberation and peace and safety is through solidarity with those who might otherwise be cut out right and so just noticing where am i you getting lulled into participation and compliance with this system, right? This is why we see family systems like this, that when there are multiple siblings, almost never will there be sibling unity or relationship. Because a big part of keeping power divided and really held by the narcissistic figure is to create fractures between those relationships that would otherwise have a shared experience together.

• Speaker #1

  I always wondered, people always say parents really do have a favorite child. I don't have ever asked any other parents about this. Well, when you ask them, they're like, well, no, I love my child, you know, my children equally. Right. Which I don't really think is always the truth. Now, do you think it is common to have a favorite child or do you think it is possible to love all your children equally? I don't have children, so I don't know. Like I'm trying to be prepared. So when the day come, I'm not like choosing one over the other. If we catch ourselves choosing a favorite child by the red flag, like how can we prevent that?

• Speaker #0

  So fair. Listen, when a parent is mature and ready for that job, they're going to see each of their kids as individuals who have specific needs. I want people to try on the idea that your kid really can't be naughty, right? Because they can be just so inconvenient, right? They can just be, drive you crazy. But if we can actually, if we are right for the job of parent, we see that as a communication because what kids can't say in words, they will communicate the best way they can. So if we're right for this job, we're going to see them as individuals, that this isn't a game of comparison, a feature that is just so, so common in narcissistic families, right? Because it's all, why aren't you like? And if we can individuate to our kids and actually give them what they specifically need, well, then they're actually going to be better behaved and they're all going to be in their unique genius and talents. Now, yeah, some kids are going to need different things, more inconvenient things than others. OK, these are multiple humans. These are humans. Right. And so I think if we notice that starting to shift back to this open compassion of like this is a child doing their best. Right. Like even if they're being even if it's a really. inconvenient way that they're communicating. To see it for what it is and to remember our responsibility. I brought them into this world. They did not ask for this. And to understand and have the responsibility of the power of that role. Without my kid, theoretically, I don't have kids. Without my kid, my life goes on. Without me, my kid, their life explodes. I mean, they can't survive without me. And a lot of parents that get triggered kind of, I think, forget or just can't like feel that full power. It's. Very, very pretty much overt in a lot of families who that golden child is, right? Like in my family, my parents don't say, your oldest brother's our favorite. They say, your oldest brother is the best blend of us, right? They tell you. They tell you.

• Speaker #1

  Oh my God. My parents, I don't have siblings. My parents compared me with neighbor's children. That's it. And like every... one that they know whoever have a kid is all of a sudden my competitor like I have to be outperforming and I was like shut the you're so idiotic like I mean they're fine now they're like a new human being nowadays but like they were rough to grew up with and then but I would say like you know the society kind of and not the society I mean not just the society their parents were not the smartest and they weren't educated. So they kind of just keep passing down this way of thinking. And they thought that was their love. They used to say, the reason why we are so harsh on you is because we love you. You know, if we don't care about you, why would we say that to you? You don't see that stranger say that to you. I'm like, what are you talking about, lady? But for the people who are currently still in that position, and maybe they might be still living with their parents. What's the safest way for them to start to have a voice and be able to advocate for themselves? Is that possible? Do they have to separate physically?

• Speaker #0

  Okay, first, you gave such a perfect example about how even only children do not escape triangulation, right? The idea of, well, look, here's proof, right? That there is anyone that they can pull in. Or, well, my friend said that their kid calls X number of times and you're not, right? You can't escape even having no siblings, okay? In terms of having a voice, listen, if you have truly a narcissistic parent and probably the other will be enabling, right? A narcissistic parent will almost always or addicted mentally ill parent will almost always pair with an enabling parent because if that parent's not enabling, they're going to leave the situation, right? So these two go together and they create this kind of force that cannot be gotten through.

• Speaker #1

  So there is one for everyone.

• Speaker #0

  There truly is. There is a lid for every pot.

• Speaker #1

  Okay. I'm hopeful now. I was worried a little bit.

• Speaker #0

  It really is, you know, good news, bad news. There's someone for everyone. And so it may or may not be, you know, if you're talking about the kind of family that we're talking about, I don't know that your voice will be heard by others. And so the idea of, one, reducing the amount of harm that you're experiencing. One of the core methods that people, strategies for people to use is the gray rock method, which is like it sounds. you become as boring and... uninteresting as possible because what a narcissistic individual is looking for is a supply. The supply gives that emotional charge, that dopamine hit when they get you riled up or otherwise are participating. And so first starting to divest from that as much as possible, especially for those who have some level of benefit from the system, right? Becoming financially independent, doing things you can do to become, to not feed into the power dynamic. that's probably being used against you. The best place for your voice to be heard is with yourself. Wow, I believe me. Wow, I know that was really harmful. Okay, well, if I'm listening to my own voice and I know sharing the reality of my life or my close information with that parent is going to hurt me, well, I believe that that hurts me enough that I start to give them the highlights. I give them superficial things, okay? And so starting to divest. and build our own world, right? So far, we've just lived in the world of the narcissist, but... What are your values? What are your interests? Probably your values around relationship aren't about being transactional. They're probably not about being one-sided. And so looking for where you can be yourself and grow your world, I would say good start.

• Speaker #1

  You're coming back next week. I'm going to text you after this because I have so much to say about what you just said. We're running out of time today. But everything you just said is literally all the work I've done in the past six years.

• Speaker #0

  Wow.

• Speaker #1

  Because I had to. keep my head down and then eventually that become a personality that wasn't me and then how to like break through the shell and figure it out what's mine without the constraints but that's for next week thank you taylor you're awesome and we love you here and i can't wait to talk to you next week can't wait thank you so much for having me gorgeous well thank you i'm gonna stop recording Thank you so much for being here with me today on the Zen Podcast. If this episode resonated with you, make sure you're subscribed and leave a comment with your biggest takeaway. That's how we grow this community and get these conversations in front of more people who need them. And if somebody came to mind while you're listening, please do make sure to send this episode to them. You can also find me on TikTok, Instagram, YouTube, Apple Podcasts, and Spotify, all linked below. Until next time, stay sharp. stay intentional and be good.