They Lied. How To Recognize A Narcissistic Relationship. | Taylor Simon | The Zhen Podcast

Description

If you have ever left a conversation feeling like you completely lost your grip on reality — you were not imagining it. That was intentional.

Taylor Simon is a therapist and psychedelic researcher who has spent years working with survivors of narcissistic abuse — and what he will tell you in this episode is something most people do not hear until years after they have already left. Narcissism is not just about someone being selfish or difficult. It is a calculated system of manipulation designed to make you doubt your own perception, abandon your own needs, and stay loyal to someone who is actively harming you.

This episode breaks down the full spectrum of narcissistic behavior — from the grandiose and obvious to the covert and invisible. It explains why narcissists manipulate therapy itself to avoid accountability, what the red flags actually look like before you have the language for them, and what it takes to get out safely and rebuild a relationship with your own reality.

If you have ever wondered whether you were the problem — this episode is going to answer that question once and for all.

Connect with Taylor Simon: 🌐 taylorstherapyservices.com 📱

In this episode: 🔥 The full spectrum of narcissistic behavior — from grandiose to covert and everything in between 🔥 Why narcissists sabotage therapy — and how they manipulate the therapeutic relationship itself 🔥 The red flags that distinguish a true personality disorder from a wound that needs compassion 🔥 How to safely exit a narcissistic relationship and protect yourself physically and emotionally 🔥 The deep psychological survival strategies that keep victims trapped in cycles of abuse 🔥 How to reconnect with your internal voice and rebuild self-trust after narcissistic trauma 🔥 How childhood environments create narcissistic behavior and the generational cycles they produce 🔥 Inner child work — how to heal from betrayal and restore your sense of worth 🔥 Why you were attracted to the narcissist in the first place — and what that actually means about you 🔥 What reclaiming your inner power actually looks like on the other side of narcissistic abuse

Timestamps: 00:00 — Welcome and introduction to narcissistic abuse recovery 02:10 — How narcissists emerge and how to recognize their traits 04:19 — Why narcissists sabotage therapy — and what happens when they are challenged 06:52 — The spectrum of narcissistic behavior and the empathy deficit 09:10 — Childhood roots and family dynamics that shape narcissism 11:04 — Are you self-diagnosing narcissistic traits — what to know 13:01 — Why we are attracted to narcissists' power and what to watch for 15:28 — Charisma, confidence, and the dangerous red flags hiding underneath 16:43 — The consciousness and strategy behind narcissistic abuse 18:09 — Why breaks in therapy are healthy and when to step back 20:14 — How to safely exit a narcissistic relationship and protect your future 23:04 — Building intuitive strength and self-validation from the inside out 26:26 — Practical steps to heal, rebuild identity, and trust yourself again 29:02 — Listening to your body's cues and embodying your inner voice 33:00 — Overcoming compulsive behaviors and meeting inner needs 36:12 — Reclaiming power and self-parenting your inner child 37:48 — Reorganizing your inner world for lasting self-trust 41:17 — Processing deep emotional wounds and moving forward 44:17 — Inner validation and inner child work to reclaim your reality 45:57 — You are the one you have been waiting for

If anything in this episode brought something up for you — support is available: 📞 Mental health and crisis support — call or text 988 📞 Substance use support — 1-800-662-4357 💬 Crisis Text Line — text HOME to 741741

The Zhen Podcast is mental wellness for peopl...

Transcription

Speaker #0
Because this is not really a thought that narcissistic people tend to have. The thought that they're having is, I'm so misunderstood, I'm the victim, nobody gets me here. There is such a spectrum from narcissistic behaviors to narcissistic coping mechanisms to an actual pathological narcissist in which it is a personality disorder. The likelihood of harm really increases once the relationship ends because there's a really big drive for retaliation in a lot of cases. Such a big part of this is you don't need their permission for what you're saying to be true.
Speaker #1
Welcome back, everybody, to the podcast. So today we have the amazing Taylor Simon joining us. Thank you so much for being with us today, Taylor. Will you please also share with the audience what you do? How do you get into this industry?
Speaker #0
Yeah, absolutely. So I am currently a therapist and psychedelic researcher in San Francisco. My therapy work is focused on narcissistic abuse recovery. I got into this line of work after really a culmination of a few factors and a couple of relationships in which I was really feeling. quite marginalized and confused and just walked away really not feeling well. And so eventually with time, I really got into those relationships in therapy to help bring me back to myself. And so after enough work in that, you know, that's a really tough path. And so I really felt that I also wanted to share this work, share the fruits of my journey and help others come back to themselves after toxic, hurtful, and narcissistic relationships.
Speaker #1
that's amazing so let's get into it so I think that when you and I first connected um I shared with you I was like I don't really know I don't think that I've ever been in narcissistic relationship whether it's romantic friendship or ah I feel like family maybe I do have this one person where I'm like oh you're borderline but the truth is I don't really know the definition even though like I can google that But like, I feel like it must be so different from day to day talking with a narcissistic person or being in a relationship with them. So would you please share with us how do we identify when, number one, you are talking to a narcissist, number two, if you are in a narcissistic relationship?
Speaker #0
Yeah, absolutely. You know, there are a lot of different ways in which narcissistic behaviors emerge. And there is such a spectrum from narcissistic behaviors. to narcissistic coping mechanisms to an actual pathological narcissist in which it is a personality disorder. And so there is a lot of variance, some who are really grandiose and believe that they are the answer, they are the cure, they are the everything. But then there are also more covert individuals who hide behind, well, I'm just doing this all for the community, I'm doing this for the family. And so there are lots of different presentations and some of the similar features are going to be a very... fixed self-orientation, a certain kind of fragility around being challenged, a real lack of empathy or an ability to get into other people's shoes, and then a lot of secondary and tertiary behaviors that really reinforce that around control, manipulation, using financial or emotional leverage, or other things such as triangulation in which the use of other people is leveraged to create outcomes that that individual wants that are most serving to themselves and that fragile in our world.
Speaker #1
That makes sense. I once heard this joke. Well, if I say it, I feel like at this moment, it wouldn't be as funny, but basically saying, can you imagine the narcissist in their therapy sessions being validated by their therapists? Because, you know, I go through therapy sessions. And for a very long period of time, I guess like my struggle was. I am appeasing everyone. So like the whole journey was to be like, this is about you, right? This is like, you need to take care of yourself. But I can only imagine the people who already take care of themselves, maybe to a certain unhealthy way, now being validated those sessions. So my follow-up question is, where do we draw the line? You know, like how much of... self-serving, self-caring, self-attention is a healthy amount and how much is like borderline, you know, they could have some narcissist traits.
Speaker #0
Absolutely. I'm so glad that you bring up the narcissist in therapy because this is such a big... thing that goes around. People talk about this. And just in my experience and that of what's reported by my peers, for the first few sessions, you know, it's really easy for a therapist to kind of be positioned. And the whole point of the beginning of therapy is to build a relationship, right? So there's not a lot of challenging before there's an alliance between the therapist and the client. However, what is typically reported and that I've observed is that this works for about four to eight sessions. But around session eight, once you get to the middle work of therapy, any kind of challenging, which is a really normal part of therapy, will just cause a collapse and then a severing with this narcissist. And so typically, but not always, what is true is that that statement is a fact for a little while. And as soon as that questioning comes up, the narcissist will abandon the therapeutic relationship.
Speaker #1
OK, say more.
Speaker #0
So this is something that, you know, I think that people have a fear that the therapist doesn't notice. And for some people, maybe on that spectrum of narcissistic behaviors, right, maybe the narcissistic behaviors are a result of genuine trauma and wounding. And the person really does need a lot poured into them. OK, that's going to be a really different experience than with someone who just will truly collapse with challenge. And that can be felt as really different internally. And so working with people who are more narcissistic, you know, the ability to self-reflect. on the way that their behaviors are and that impact and to have that level of insight is really, really hindered. And so that's something that can really make it much easier. That said, sometimes a really self-oriented individual is in therapy because they have a lot of attachment trauma. They have a lot of developmental trauma and do need a lot of support, right? This is not to say even a narcissist shouldn't have self-compassion, right? Because there are people who are really narcissistic who do improve. and do grow and are able to have a little bit more solidity on the inside and be able to sit with a little bit more accountability. And so in a way, we want to leave open the ability to hold compassion that even someone who's really fixed can change. However, when it gets to a point of a personality disorder, well, then it can be a lot harder to know, is this really serving this individual? This is also why it's really hard in couples counseling to continue if one person is really strongly narcissistic. Because in order to keep the alliance going with that one person, the couples counselor is then invited to actually participate in the abuse of the other partner. And so in those cases, you actually couldn't even give couples counseling because it would be what we would consider contraindicated.
Speaker #1
Right. Okay. So is, first of all, is narcissism... Like, is this genetic or is this something like the environment gradually shipped them into a certain way? Is this nature or nurture?
Speaker #0
Yeah, you know, I think that there can be a lot of both. But the way that I really frame this is that I work a lot within both people recovering from the individual narcissist who have had probably more likely a romantic relationship that's been really harmful and left a mark. But I also connect to narcissistic symptoms. So. What is a narcissistic family system? Rather than having a family that's based off of connection and love and community, this is a family that is really related over power and privilege and position. And so in this family, let's say that there's a narcissistic parent and multiple children. One child will typically fulfill the role of the golden child, taking on the most qualities of that narcissistic parent because they're so praised. They're really reaffirmed. And within that system, they're really held up. They're given a lot of benefit and a lot of privilege where other children may be holding more projections like the scapegoat child. And so that child that's really been conditioned and rewarded for being narcissistically oriented will then go out into the world and behave that way. And it creates a cycle.
Speaker #1
Wow. I'm trying to apply this to my own life right now. And I'm just thinking, And I'm not saying that. I could potentially be narcissistic. But like, I recently had a situation where I felt like I was dealing with a narcissist. You know this, I share a little bit with you. And I've been seeing my therapist for three years. And I actually, multiple times where I wondered if I want to take a pause, but I didn't. Until recently, when I repeated back what happened to me. to my therapist and my therapist pretty much didn't really listen to my side of story. So I feel like my therapist wasn't on my side. So now I'm seriously considering pausing this relationship with her. because I've been thinking about it. And now that you were saying that, like, if the person being challenged in the therapy session could potentially end the relationship with their therapist, I'm trying to think, like, do I have narcissist-like symptoms? But we've been seeing each other for three years. So I feel like I'm okay. What are other symptoms? Maybe I have to self-diagnose a little bit.
Speaker #0
You know, let me tell you that you are wondering that, that you're thinking about that. is my immediate gut reaction is probably not. Because this is not really a thought that narcissistic people tend to have. The thought that they're having is, I'm so misunderstood. I'm the victim. Nobody gets me here. And so usually, and this can actually really be a common experience for those who have experienced narcissistic abuse is wondering, well, is it me, right? Because there's this amount of gaslighting and this moving away from the inner anchor of self-knowledge. then has people seeing through this other perspective. And so I don't know the exact situation that happened, but I will say that you're wondering this makes me think you're probably doing all right. Now that's not diagnostic, but that is a typically not a question that narcissistic individuals are asking themselves.
Speaker #1
I see. Okay. Then let's talk about, am I attracted to narcissists? I feel like when I'm looking for somebody in a romantic setting, I feel like I'm looking for someone. powerful. But then like, not like, you know, like there are people who they pretend to be powerful, but then you look at them and you're like, oh, I feel like there's a lot of insecurity behind it. But like when I'm looking for something, I'm looking for someone who's fundamentally self-aware, you know, they're like sure of themselves. So what are some of the things I need to be careful for? Because I can see myself easily data narcissist and not even knowing that I am in a narcissistic relationship because I'm so drawn to their powerful presence, right? They know what they want. They go after what they want. They don't let anything stop them. To a certain degree, it's a lot of good qualities that the society is selling us, right? Especially in business and career. So how can I be careful of not dating a narcissist?
Speaker #0
I mean, it's such an important question. You know, one aspect of a successful narcissist is that they've got charisma. In order to get away with abuse or keeping someone on hand to exploit in some way, you have to be good enough at it that people will stay. If you just come out the gate and you are a monster, no one's going to get hooked. And so something that I often will, two things really come to mind. One is make sure that what is said matches what is real. I think that part of what's so confusing for people is listening to a story, listening to an apology. And that's one thing that's happening up here. But the second track is what's actually happening in manifest reality, the actual behaviors. And so when there's a really big gap between those two things, that is something to keep an eye out for. Do they say that, oh, they're all business and have these powerful meetings, this and that, but really doesn't seem like their calendar is so booked. It doesn't seem like. This is as much action as talk. Now, that's something to watch for because of the grandiosity, right? It's really hard at first to see the difference between what is charisma that is empty and what is confidence. That's often why narcissistic people can sort of slide through for so well for so long. So that's one piece. Something I often tell people that work with me if narcissists are their type, you know what I say is like, make sure the relationship feels good, but not too good. Right. Just like any other fix. You know, it's like, wow. You know, it begins with more of a love bombing with them doing a lot of mirroring, with them really saying and doing a lot of the things to really try and get you hooked in. And so if your type is narcissist, it's going to feel really good. And it's sort of like a high that's too good. You know, you want something you want green tea, you know, no caffeine crash at the end. If you have a lot of espresso, it's going to feel great going up and it's going to feel real crummy coming down.
Speaker #1
I'm stressed even just talking about espresso right now.
Speaker #0
Right. See, so you're familiar right home. My heart's beating. It's so perfect. It's too good to be true. They love everything I love. It's watch out if it feels like it hurts, but watch out if it feels too good.
Speaker #1
What I think what I'm hearing from you is that they know what they're doing, meaning when they go into a relationship, they're fully aware of the tactic or strategy they're applying in this relationship. So, first of all, is that true?
Speaker #0
Certainly for people who have more of a narcissistic personality disorder or are more of a malignant narcissist, there is knowledge and plan. That's part of what is so hurtful is this thoughtfulness around how can I most hook you? How can I most hurt you? And for some of the other types, it may not be quite as. conscious, although it is clearly a strategy that's being used, it's not quite so pointed.
Speaker #1
I see. So, and I know there's different levels. Is this something that once you become aware, if a person who think that they need to change, they're capable of improving and move towards the other direction? Meaning like they put a stop to it and they be aware of their actions and then they're like I want to no longer do this or be this type of person.
Speaker #0
Yeah, it's definitely harder the more fixed or sort of more pathological, so to speak, that it is. It is not typical because of that piece of the inner challenging being so difficult. There's not typically an interest in recovery. However, some people are doing specifically like expanded states research to see if things like MDMA can support narcissist. for breaking down some of that resistance. That said, it tends to be slow work and it takes a long time, which is part of why some of these experimental treatments are being looked at. And maybe you've heard that old saying, most of the people who are in therapy are there because of someone who won't go to therapy. And so typically I'm working with the folks who are there because any kind of relational process with the person that's hurting them is really no longer possible.
Speaker #1
You know, this is kind of circling back to my initial question. I feel like after four years, three, almost four years in therapy with multiple therapists, right? I feel like I don't want to do therapy anymore. Like, I feel like I want to do maintenance work, but I just feel like everyone's fine. I mean, like everyone seemed like they're living a great life. I'm over here suffering and I'm over here thinking that I'm at fault. So I feel like maybe I'm switching the table here and just be like, Other people can go to therapy. I'm fine. Is that narcissistic?
Speaker #0
No. I mean, first of all, there's something to be said for healthy breaks. It is clinically appropriate to take breaks from therapy. It's really intense and deep work. Also, I actually see it as developmentally appropriate. Now, of course, I'm not your therapist. I don't know the exact case. It can be really an important and normative step to start giving things back to people, which is the idea of once that part of the process goes from, well, I'm crazy, I'm wrong, I don't know what's happening. I'm being so hurtful by having boundaries. They don't use that word because that's not what's cognitively held, but start to give it back. Well, actually, you hurt me. That's a you problem. That's on your side of the street, a very important part of the recovery process. And so, you know, and heck, it's important to get mad if we just don't feel our anger. That is going to turn into sickness in the body. It's going to block us from other emotions. And it's going to prevent us from being right in right relationship with our own internal world.
Speaker #1
Right. So hypothetically, if I were to be dating a narcissist right now and I want to leave, what are some of the strategy that you can share with me so I can leave safely? Because I would believe that if I were to be with this person in the beginning, something draw me to it. Right. So like, how do I. built this like awareness and also try to stop myself from going back as well as leave safely and make sure the narcissist doesn't hurt me in the process?
Speaker #0
It's a really important question because there can be some serious safety considerations, you know, especially with a more fixed narcissist. There can be a real increase of danger around abuse stalking, you know, when it comes to just any relationship where there's abuse. the likelihood of harm really increases once the relationship ends because there is a really big drive for retaliation in a lot of cases. And so on one hand, if you're experiencing full-on abuse, you know, something as important as a safety plan around, well, where can you go? How can you move around your regular routines? Are there places you can go where this person doesn't know, can't reach you, can't find you? Because if they know your daily routine, all of a sudden they may start just popping up in it. In terms of you know, outside just the safety planning for abuse, there's a lot of internal readiness. So one is to start to recognize that the greatness of the narcissist is actually a projection of our own wish and potential. And so to take some of that back and then to also do a really honest internal inventory around our own codependence. Because if we have codependent parts, then when someone hurts us, the instinct will be to lean in, to move towards, to fix. And unless we can be aware that we are having that urge to lean in when people hurt us, it's going to be very hard to see, well, why am I even still here? Right. Can feel really powerless. Like I can't help myself. I can't leave. And so to name where we have those habits is a really important part of understanding how we remain stuck. And then, of course, one of the biggest things is to take a leap of faith. Because I believe for everyone who's in this narcissistic dynamic, inside their inner healer, that authentic self is still whispering, no matter how quiet, something is not right here. This does not feel good. This is not how it's supposed to be. This can be better. And the leap of faith is to go against all of our own codependence, all of the potential that we see, all of the sunk costs of the relationship, and to believe our interior world that's saying, this can be better. And to take that leap, despite so many different protectors and parts of the self saying, don't do this. This isn't real. I'm so bad or wrong for leaving them, especially if it's someone who's more covert. Oh, I'm just so sick. I need you in my life. I'm just so beaten down. You need to be here, right? It can build this story. I'm so selfish to leave. But to trust that inner knowing, this is not what is meant for me.
Speaker #1
Earlier you said, when it hurts, we tend to Lean in, right? Lean into it. Why is that? Like, is there like a biology component to it? Or is that because we think we can rewrite history, we can do it better next time to repeat a pattern? I'm just curious, do you know, like, why people want it to get hurt?
Speaker #0
Yeah, well, you know, I think there are a lot of reasons for that. And I do think that it is basically biopsychological in that a lot of the time, if we take it back to the family, right? How did my nervous system learn that this was normal? How did I learn that when something hurts, I lean in, not run away, right? Because that seems very antithetical to survival. And for the young child, connection socially is the same as food, water, and shelter in terms of survival needs. And so a child in a narcissistic family dynamic will render themselves insane, essentially, rather than to acknowledge the person I am. dependent on for my survival, does not have my best interests at heart, and are at sometimes very overtly harmful. A child's brain just cannot do that. And so it short circuits basically and says, well, I'm crazy and bad and broken. I have this flaw. And that helps them survive and stay there. It's very adaptive. It's very brilliant. There's nothing wrong that that happens. It is a effective survival strategy. Then we grow up and we go out into the world and our internal wiring is around Well, if something hurts, well, I'm wrong. Well, I need to stay connected. And so there are all these unconscious beliefs that have already taken root around, well, I need to be there to serve the other or my internal world. It doesn't matter. It's not important. I'm just wrong. And it goes out and it perpetuates. Now, unconsciously, there is the hope, well, this time it will be different. This time I can change them. This time I'll find out that I'm good. And it continues this pattern over and over. And that tends to make people more likely to end up in this similar situation because to their nervous system, that kind of chaos and scarcity and insecurity, it's like, it feels right like home.
Speaker #1
Right. I can still relate to that. I'm seriously concerned about my dating life now because I definitely, I like to fix whoever I'm dating. There's some glory to it. And I know that it is from my childhood. And I think that to a certain degree, I'm still fixing. relationship with my families, you know, and the people around me. And I think that I can totally see why people would jump into another one because it's like the same thing. Like I relax by watching scary movies. There's something about screaming just make me feel like, okay, this is what my nervous system is pretty used to. Um, but we're changing. I guess I'm not going to cancel my therapy sessions. I need help. But, but, um, I guess my next question is, we talked about inner awareness, inner healing. What are some of the things that people can start to work on? And, you know, maybe leaving narcissistic relationship, it's too big of a jump right now. But what are some of the smaller steps they can take today to help them leave this type of relationship in the long run?
Speaker #0
Yeah. Absolutely. You know, so important. Such a great question because we really have to start where we are and to leave maybe a few steps down the road. And so an aspect of what narcissistic abuse does for us or to us is to really detach us from our inner knowing and degrade our inner anchor around how we perceive and know life. And that is what part of what makes manipulation that much more potent, right? It's like I've unhooked. from my inner knowing in that sense something is wrong. And so what we can do, and this is good for all sorts of people who have boundary challenges or otherwise have this kind of, I have a fatal flaw thinking, is to practice being in our interiority, which is to say, well, what do I like here? Start to know the self. What do I enjoy and can I follow that? Start to create a new feedback loop between the inner world and the outer world, which is, well, I feel like I want this thing or I feel this way. And then to behave in correspondence to that, to start to strengthen and rewire the connection to the inner anchor that will help build up our own self-containment in a way and will help us really cue into that inner voice. because that's a lot of what's been degraded. And then to see what wants to emerge from there, right? So like, oh, I kind of think I want to paint, but I don't know if it really matters or if it's going to be any good. Girl, you feel it, do it. See what it's like to just start being responsive to yourself and your inner world and to also notice your preferences. You know, I'll play this game with people sometimes. Can I try it with you?
Speaker #1
Yeah, totally. I love it.
Speaker #0
Okay. No matter what I ask of you, you're going to say yes, all right?
Speaker #1
Okay.
Speaker #0
Okay. Will you have me on your podcast?
Speaker #1
Yes.
Speaker #0
Would you like to go out for drinks this weekend?
Speaker #1
Yes.
Speaker #0
Would you like to have me over for your next family holiday?
Speaker #1
Yes.
Speaker #0
Would you write me a check for a thousand dollars?
Speaker #1
Yes.
Speaker #0
Can I come over to your place and have a party there?
Speaker #1
Yes.
Speaker #0
Now I'm guessing even though you said yes and all those things, a bunch of them felt different. Tell me about what your experience was.
Speaker #1
The first one, podcast, obviously. Right. And then second one, drinks. Absolutely. Anytime. I feel like it was the third one, the holiday party. Oh, sorry. No, the family party. I was like, oh, maybe. I actually thought about it. I was like, it seems super nice, super cool. It wouldn't hurt, right? I was like, maybe that could do. The fourth one was the $1,000. I was like, oh, I can buy a lot of skincare with that. So I don't know. And then the last one was like through a party at my place. Fuck no. There's no way. I love Queen. So you're not coming. See ya.
Speaker #0
That's right. That's right. Okay. And so you knew that you're describing how you knew cognitively, but tell me, did you notice if there's any difference in how the yeses hit in your body?
Speaker #1
Right. I feel like when we were asking the later three questions, when you were asking the later three questions, I feel like I couldn't answer. Like there's a stopper around my gut area. Like there's something coming up to kind of try to like. close my throat to not say yes to you.
Speaker #0
Exactly, right? And these are really subtle cues that our body is giving. The knowledge was there, right? There's a correlated somatic experience. And so typically what will start to happen and is all too encouraged in many different relationships is to start to ignore and dismiss those things or become so disconnected from them we don't even understand what our body is trying to tell us. And so a lot of this work is about that inner responsiveness. And trying to really create an inner key. Well, what are the yeses that I feel like the energy can flow with me? And what are the yeses where actually it does feel like something wants to close my throat? And so following those and starting to, you know, it's a two-part process. I need to hear my inner voice and I need to trust it enough to listen. And so any practices that align us with that and the responses from our body are going to be great ways to build skills while you're still in that pre-contemplation phase of is this relationship me?
Speaker #1
Let's talk about follow your body and your intuition. I think that this goes back to the age old, you know, question. Do people really don't know what's good for them? And the answer is 90% of the time, we do know what's good for us. For example, eat your vegetables, right? Don't drink as much soda. As much as we have the knowledge and we know sometimes we will get sick, I feel like there's still like some sort of addiction to it.
Speaker #0
Because your body is in this loop, feedback loop for so long, your biochemistry has changed to a certain degree. Now it's almost like as much as your body is telling you no, you're bypassing it. You're overcoming the signal. You're trying to go back to who you are. And I know that you mentioned to pay more attention about what you like, what you don't like. Then my question to you is, when we add a crossroad and we know. the right choice, the wrong choice, but our body is so conditioned and addicted to certain lifestyle. How do we find the courage to stop ourselves from heading down the same road once again?
Speaker #1
Sure. Oh my gosh, it's so important. You know, I invite working, there are a lot of answers to this, and so I'll share what it's like when you work with me. One is about creating a shift from the mindset of I keep doing. this keeps happening to me to I keep doing this, which is to say from, oh, well, I don't know what's good for me. I hurt myself. But rather to this lens of I'm an adaptive human. There is a reason why I have this compulsive behavior. And so a big aspect when those moments come around, because the compulsive moment, it can be so strong, so immersive, it feels so hard to say no to. And so increasing insight around, well, what's the paired emotion that's trying to be you pushed away, separated, moved away from, snuffed out through this compulsive behavior. Because often the compulsion will help for a little bit, but it's not curative or transformative. It will just create satisfaction in a moment to the compulsion, but the underlying issue of I'm overwhelmed, I have so much shame, whatever that experience is that's coming up, it's still going to be rumbling down below. And so to gain a sense of, oh, well, when I feel like I want to overeat, or I want to use a substance or anything that's composed of skin pick, right? It's like, well, gaining a deeper insight for what's arising for me. And then if you're working with me, the way that I might do that is who's the part that's underneath the compulsion? What's that feeling? And then building this kind of inner connection to that part to say, how can I work with that part directly rather than through this adaptation? If I want to eat because I want to push away feelings of shame, well, how can I build a relationship to the part of me that feels shame And and work with it to then slip in some compassion or even harm reduction. Okay, I don't want to have my regular compulsion, but something needs to happen here, especially at the beginning of this process. What can I do that is safer? What can I do that reduces the impact of this compulsion and lets me get through this moment? And so some of those pieces, and when we do that and have a sense for who is underneath the compulsion and have compassion for them. then it's easier to keep a promise to ourself or to make a choice, right? It's a lot easier to say, well, I'm harming myself, me, an adult, than to say, oh, well, there's eight-year-old me who felt totally unheard, who needed to have a behavior in order to deal with the overwhelm of the emotions and to actually think, well, okay, well, actually, I'm working with her. I'm working with this eight-year-old, and what does she need? She need me to move my body? She need me to have a temper tantrum in my bed, punch a pillow or push on a wall or just... stay with it. And then it becomes a lot easier to make better choices or safer choices and know that we're just not always going to get it right. But that when we keep promises to ourself, our inner world is watching and it matters. And that's how we create a repair to the self-relationship and show I am the one I am waiting for. I do not need this behavior to make me feel better. I don't need to externalize to find a parent type who's going to make me feel better. I am the one I have been waiting for. And to really feel the confidence that that brings of I have the capacity to take care of myself and do the most loving thing in any moment for myself.
Speaker #0
I love that. What I'm also hearing you're saying, and this is something that I'm currently working on, is recognize the fact that I have a choice. You know, I can make my own decision and understanding, you know, where were some of the old pattern truly came from and say, I can work with that part of me. you understand that I am choosing to go down certain path versus if I feel like before I was just so overwhelmed from my past and my emotions and my feelings and I don't even know where to begin. Yeah,
Speaker #1
absolutely. Right. It's sort of that process of going for insight. Why is this happening? Why am I doing this? And then behavioral. Well, can I take a little step or can I draw boundaries sooner or can I let go of their response to my boundary a little bit? faster. And we conceptualize ourself as having this inner healing intelligence, this idea that a part of us naturally wants to move towards wholeness. Then we have something to lean on. We have a resource inside, which is to say my adaptations may not have always been the best, but I'm here and I'm alive and I'm better than I would have been anyway. And to build a relationship with that part of us trusting, we naturally want to move towards health given the opportunity.
Speaker #0
Right. So how does a person walking out of narcissistic relationship to. rebuild their identity and trust themselves again.
Speaker #1
Yeah. You know, there's so much about just organizing what's happened. There's so much around confusion and am I the hurtful one, right? So much of the manipulation is you're hurting me, not the other way around. You know, there's some really classic moves. There's DARVO, which is defend, attack, reverse victim and offender. And this is a strategy that narcissists will do to shift blame when they're being hurtful to the other person.
Speaker #0
I had a very recent experience where I was guest-lit and basically everything that this person said to me were reframed as I heard it wrong and they didn't say it. I made it too personal. I became angry on false information. I was defensive because they felt like they couldn't even have a conversation with me because I was being unreasonable, even though, you know. I got to that point because untrue things were said and manipulated. So I feel like I can relate to that. I mean, I never had that experience until this is what it's meant to be. The universe works its way around. Just let me truly have a personal closeness to it.
Speaker #1
Absolutely. Now, if I was going to project on your experience, I'd say, you know, if that happened to me, I would feel really confused. I would start to feel dissociated. I would have all this deep questioning of myself and what I knew. And it would be so disorienting.
Speaker #0
Mm hmm. I'm still angry. Listen, first of all, we still don't know if this is a person narcissistic because now this person is not here to defend themselves. But I would also argue there's a certain part of me make me so. anger is because I allowed this person for the longest time. I didn't want to see them for who they truly are. I gave them the benefit of the doubt. I let them to take advantage of me. I allowed the time to go, like all the incidents to go on to the point that I'm just like, okay, I think that you're way out of line. You crossed all the boundaries and I have to put a foot down. Right. And I think that's like the reason why I'm still recovering. Like I'm not even I you know, this person is irrelevant. But for some reason, it cuts so deep.
Speaker #1
It does. I mean, the attack in a way is so personal, right? It's against this relationship, self-trust, our relationship and orientation to reality and any hope of a shared reality. And so the place where it hurts us is really deep. And it's in this like... intimate self-relationship, our relationship to life. And so it can leave a huge impact, even if it's not someone that we were ultimately close with for a long time or had a lot of work with. And so that degree of like, I am this mad, I am this mad about this immediate red flag, you know, like,
Speaker #0
yeah,
Speaker #1
wow, this has really gotten me outside of myself. And it just can be really, you know, like you said, like, makes you question yourself sort of based in reality, right? And so this work with the self-blame around, well, and I let that happen and this and that. It's like, well, this is their goal. This is the skill, right? Like it's hard to beat someone at their own game. And especially if you're coming as like an open-hearted person trying to have a relationship and you're walking into a game that you don't know about.
Speaker #0
Right.
Speaker #1
It's really tough to walk away from that unscathed.
Speaker #0
Like help me to process this because I'm not going to lie. I'm so angry. And there are moments where I'm just like. There are a million things I want to say to this person, to which, by the way, I had a very serious conversation with this person. I laid out everything this person has said to me that's incorrect. I share with them the trust has been broken. I do not trust you anymore. And it may be in the near future we can rebuild this, but I highly doubt it. And I pretty much shared how I feel and why I feel certain ways. But I'm still so angry. Like, can you help me to like just move on? And the thing is about me, one more thing, is that I don't even get angry like this. Like this is me every three years. Like somebody really just crossed the line and I'm like, I can't even let this go.
Speaker #1
Yeah, absolutely. Well, you know, I think. Such a big part of this is you don't need their permission for what you're saying to be true. And what you just mentioned is, well, the inner me, the little child did not have a voice that mattered. And so what I would invite is this question of, well, how can it matter enough to you? You don't need them to agree for it to be real. You need to stand by yourself for it to be real. Right. Part of especially when it's a more intense narcissistic situation. You can lay it all out like a legal briefing. You can make it the most logical receipts for days. Listen, I've written. You cannot believe the emails I have written. It doesn't matter because it doesn't fit into their worldview. And so to be able to look at that, that outline and say, this is enough for me. This is real for me. To journal and ask yourself the question, what would it be like if I assumed that this was all a true experience? right, to enter that world where it was already just absolutely factual. and grounded and rather than I need you to see this, right? That's part of the codependent. I mean, there's justice needs in there as well, but also some of the codependence, which is I need you to approve of this boundary. I need you to see it. And working against codependency says it's enough that I see this. I'm allowed to be my independent person and to self-validate. This is the reality of what I experienced. And then if you're working with me, we would do the inner child work or I would have you if you were into it. close your eyes and imagine this young part and to say to it directly, I believe you. I know that this was true. I want to hear your voice. And then to leave space and let that interior part speak back to you and just to listen. And it sounds sometimes to people, I think like, yeah, what difference is that going to make? It makes a tremendous difference in terms of shifting that. And so, you know, there's a version in which we could do a small experiment with that. But that kind of interior parts work is what I would recommend to close the loop on that validation. And rather than externalize it, I need you to see how dirty you did me to just say inside, I know that that was not right. And that is for sure how it was because I trust my feeling and my experience. And thus become a good and loving parent to that inner child while also solidifying your own reality for what you know it is.
Speaker #0
Love it. Even though I didn't close my eyes because my current therapist. have me do similar work where we go back to the childhood. So like when you were talking, I kind of just had this image of in my head where like, you know, having this kid kind of like being validated by himself. And I think that that kind of just triggered a lot of the times when I was a child that I needed the grown-up to validate me, but they didn't, right? So I constantly trying to have them see me and see like why they were in Iran. So I feel like my entire life is about what's about being seen, right? And I feel like this is one of the situations where you're right. Like, I don't need your approval. I don't need your validation. I know what I saw. I know what I heard. You know, I'm a Libra. I'm very fair. All that. But this is super, super helpful. And I know that, you know, you work with clients. If people want to find you, how can they best find you?
Speaker #1
Yeah, absolutely. People can reach out to me through my website, which is taylorstherapyservices.com. That's Taylor with an S. And on there, you can find, of course, my therapy services. But then I also provide breath work. I have a way that people can work with me in expanded states and otherwise some different coaching options. So everything can be found there. And yeah, if I resonate with you, please reach out. We can do some work.
Speaker #0
I love it. Thank you, Taylor, so much. This is super helpful. I feel... healed a little bit. I definitely feel like I can now process my journey in a different way. So thank you so, so much.
Speaker #1
It's my pleasure.
Speaker #0
Thanks so much for having me. And if somebody came to mind while you're listening, please do make sure to send this episode to them. You can also find me on TikTok, Instagram, YouTube, Apple Podcasts, and Spotify. All linked below. Until next time, stay sharp, stay intentional, and be good.

About The Zhen Podcast

You’re listening to The Zhen Podcast - a show focused on mental health, physical health, relationship health, and the daily practices that support real, lasting change. Each episode features thoughtful conversations with guests who share real-life experiences — from their own journeys to the work they’ve done with clients - offering practical examples of healing, learning, and growth. We explore what actually helps people move forward, whether that comes from science, health, psychology, spirituality, or simple habits that make a meaningful difference. The goal is clarity, self-awareness, and tools you can apply to your own life — now let's begin the conversation Disclaimer: "The information provided in this Podcast Channel (the "Channel") does not, and is not intended to, constitute professional advice; instead, all information, content, and materials available on this Channel are for general informational purposes only. This Channel contains information provided by interviewees and/or links to other third-party websites. Such links are only for the convenience of the reader, user or browser. The views expressed at, or through, this site are those of the individual interviewees in their individual capacities only – not those of the Channel. All liability with respect to actions taken or not taken based on the contents of this Channel are hereby expressly disclaimed. The content on this posting is provided "as is;" no representations are made that the content is error-free."

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About The Zhen Podcast

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Description

If you have ever left a conversation feeling like you completely lost your grip on reality — you were not imagining it. That was intentional.

If you have ever wondered whether you were the problem — this episode is going to answer that question once and for all.

Connect with Taylor Simon: 🌐 taylorstherapyservices.com 📱

The Zhen Podcast is mental wellness for peopl...

Transcription

Speaker #0
Because this is not really a thought that narcissistic people tend to have. The thought that they're having is, I'm so misunderstood, I'm the victim, nobody gets me here. There is such a spectrum from narcissistic behaviors to narcissistic coping mechanisms to an actual pathological narcissist in which it is a personality disorder. The likelihood of harm really increases once the relationship ends because there's a really big drive for retaliation in a lot of cases. Such a big part of this is you don't need their permission for what you're saying to be true.
Speaker #1
Welcome back, everybody, to the podcast. So today we have the amazing Taylor Simon joining us. Thank you so much for being with us today, Taylor. Will you please also share with the audience what you do? How do you get into this industry?
Speaker #0
Yeah, absolutely. So I am currently a therapist and psychedelic researcher in San Francisco. My therapy work is focused on narcissistic abuse recovery. I got into this line of work after really a culmination of a few factors and a couple of relationships in which I was really feeling. quite marginalized and confused and just walked away really not feeling well. And so eventually with time, I really got into those relationships in therapy to help bring me back to myself. And so after enough work in that, you know, that's a really tough path. And so I really felt that I also wanted to share this work, share the fruits of my journey and help others come back to themselves after toxic, hurtful, and narcissistic relationships.
Speaker #1
that's amazing so let's get into it so I think that when you and I first connected um I shared with you I was like I don't really know I don't think that I've ever been in narcissistic relationship whether it's romantic friendship or ah I feel like family maybe I do have this one person where I'm like oh you're borderline but the truth is I don't really know the definition even though like I can google that But like, I feel like it must be so different from day to day talking with a narcissistic person or being in a relationship with them. So would you please share with us how do we identify when, number one, you are talking to a narcissist, number two, if you are in a narcissistic relationship?
Speaker #0
Yeah, absolutely. You know, there are a lot of different ways in which narcissistic behaviors emerge. And there is such a spectrum from narcissistic behaviors. to narcissistic coping mechanisms to an actual pathological narcissist in which it is a personality disorder. And so there is a lot of variance, some who are really grandiose and believe that they are the answer, they are the cure, they are the everything. But then there are also more covert individuals who hide behind, well, I'm just doing this all for the community, I'm doing this for the family. And so there are lots of different presentations and some of the similar features are going to be a very... fixed self-orientation, a certain kind of fragility around being challenged, a real lack of empathy or an ability to get into other people's shoes, and then a lot of secondary and tertiary behaviors that really reinforce that around control, manipulation, using financial or emotional leverage, or other things such as triangulation in which the use of other people is leveraged to create outcomes that that individual wants that are most serving to themselves and that fragile in our world.
Speaker #1
That makes sense. I once heard this joke. Well, if I say it, I feel like at this moment, it wouldn't be as funny, but basically saying, can you imagine the narcissist in their therapy sessions being validated by their therapists? Because, you know, I go through therapy sessions. And for a very long period of time, I guess like my struggle was. I am appeasing everyone. So like the whole journey was to be like, this is about you, right? This is like, you need to take care of yourself. But I can only imagine the people who already take care of themselves, maybe to a certain unhealthy way, now being validated those sessions. So my follow-up question is, where do we draw the line? You know, like how much of... self-serving, self-caring, self-attention is a healthy amount and how much is like borderline, you know, they could have some narcissist traits.
Speaker #0
Absolutely. I'm so glad that you bring up the narcissist in therapy because this is such a big... thing that goes around. People talk about this. And just in my experience and that of what's reported by my peers, for the first few sessions, you know, it's really easy for a therapist to kind of be positioned. And the whole point of the beginning of therapy is to build a relationship, right? So there's not a lot of challenging before there's an alliance between the therapist and the client. However, what is typically reported and that I've observed is that this works for about four to eight sessions. But around session eight, once you get to the middle work of therapy, any kind of challenging, which is a really normal part of therapy, will just cause a collapse and then a severing with this narcissist. And so typically, but not always, what is true is that that statement is a fact for a little while. And as soon as that questioning comes up, the narcissist will abandon the therapeutic relationship.
Speaker #1
OK, say more.
Speaker #0
So this is something that, you know, I think that people have a fear that the therapist doesn't notice. And for some people, maybe on that spectrum of narcissistic behaviors, right, maybe the narcissistic behaviors are a result of genuine trauma and wounding. And the person really does need a lot poured into them. OK, that's going to be a really different experience than with someone who just will truly collapse with challenge. And that can be felt as really different internally. And so working with people who are more narcissistic, you know, the ability to self-reflect. on the way that their behaviors are and that impact and to have that level of insight is really, really hindered. And so that's something that can really make it much easier. That said, sometimes a really self-oriented individual is in therapy because they have a lot of attachment trauma. They have a lot of developmental trauma and do need a lot of support, right? This is not to say even a narcissist shouldn't have self-compassion, right? Because there are people who are really narcissistic who do improve. and do grow and are able to have a little bit more solidity on the inside and be able to sit with a little bit more accountability. And so in a way, we want to leave open the ability to hold compassion that even someone who's really fixed can change. However, when it gets to a point of a personality disorder, well, then it can be a lot harder to know, is this really serving this individual? This is also why it's really hard in couples counseling to continue if one person is really strongly narcissistic. Because in order to keep the alliance going with that one person, the couples counselor is then invited to actually participate in the abuse of the other partner. And so in those cases, you actually couldn't even give couples counseling because it would be what we would consider contraindicated.
Speaker #1
Right. Okay. So is, first of all, is narcissism... Like, is this genetic or is this something like the environment gradually shipped them into a certain way? Is this nature or nurture?
Speaker #0
Yeah, you know, I think that there can be a lot of both. But the way that I really frame this is that I work a lot within both people recovering from the individual narcissist who have had probably more likely a romantic relationship that's been really harmful and left a mark. But I also connect to narcissistic symptoms. So. What is a narcissistic family system? Rather than having a family that's based off of connection and love and community, this is a family that is really related over power and privilege and position. And so in this family, let's say that there's a narcissistic parent and multiple children. One child will typically fulfill the role of the golden child, taking on the most qualities of that narcissistic parent because they're so praised. They're really reaffirmed. And within that system, they're really held up. They're given a lot of benefit and a lot of privilege where other children may be holding more projections like the scapegoat child. And so that child that's really been conditioned and rewarded for being narcissistically oriented will then go out into the world and behave that way. And it creates a cycle.
Speaker #1
Wow. I'm trying to apply this to my own life right now. And I'm just thinking, And I'm not saying that. I could potentially be narcissistic. But like, I recently had a situation where I felt like I was dealing with a narcissist. You know this, I share a little bit with you. And I've been seeing my therapist for three years. And I actually, multiple times where I wondered if I want to take a pause, but I didn't. Until recently, when I repeated back what happened to me. to my therapist and my therapist pretty much didn't really listen to my side of story. So I feel like my therapist wasn't on my side. So now I'm seriously considering pausing this relationship with her. because I've been thinking about it. And now that you were saying that, like, if the person being challenged in the therapy session could potentially end the relationship with their therapist, I'm trying to think, like, do I have narcissist-like symptoms? But we've been seeing each other for three years. So I feel like I'm okay. What are other symptoms? Maybe I have to self-diagnose a little bit.
Speaker #0
You know, let me tell you that you are wondering that, that you're thinking about that. is my immediate gut reaction is probably not. Because this is not really a thought that narcissistic people tend to have. The thought that they're having is, I'm so misunderstood. I'm the victim. Nobody gets me here. And so usually, and this can actually really be a common experience for those who have experienced narcissistic abuse is wondering, well, is it me, right? Because there's this amount of gaslighting and this moving away from the inner anchor of self-knowledge. then has people seeing through this other perspective. And so I don't know the exact situation that happened, but I will say that you're wondering this makes me think you're probably doing all right. Now that's not diagnostic, but that is a typically not a question that narcissistic individuals are asking themselves.
Speaker #1
I see. Okay. Then let's talk about, am I attracted to narcissists? I feel like when I'm looking for somebody in a romantic setting, I feel like I'm looking for someone. powerful. But then like, not like, you know, like there are people who they pretend to be powerful, but then you look at them and you're like, oh, I feel like there's a lot of insecurity behind it. But like when I'm looking for something, I'm looking for someone who's fundamentally self-aware, you know, they're like sure of themselves. So what are some of the things I need to be careful for? Because I can see myself easily data narcissist and not even knowing that I am in a narcissistic relationship because I'm so drawn to their powerful presence, right? They know what they want. They go after what they want. They don't let anything stop them. To a certain degree, it's a lot of good qualities that the society is selling us, right? Especially in business and career. So how can I be careful of not dating a narcissist?
Speaker #0
I mean, it's such an important question. You know, one aspect of a successful narcissist is that they've got charisma. In order to get away with abuse or keeping someone on hand to exploit in some way, you have to be good enough at it that people will stay. If you just come out the gate and you are a monster, no one's going to get hooked. And so something that I often will, two things really come to mind. One is make sure that what is said matches what is real. I think that part of what's so confusing for people is listening to a story, listening to an apology. And that's one thing that's happening up here. But the second track is what's actually happening in manifest reality, the actual behaviors. And so when there's a really big gap between those two things, that is something to keep an eye out for. Do they say that, oh, they're all business and have these powerful meetings, this and that, but really doesn't seem like their calendar is so booked. It doesn't seem like. This is as much action as talk. Now, that's something to watch for because of the grandiosity, right? It's really hard at first to see the difference between what is charisma that is empty and what is confidence. That's often why narcissistic people can sort of slide through for so well for so long. So that's one piece. Something I often tell people that work with me if narcissists are their type, you know what I say is like, make sure the relationship feels good, but not too good. Right. Just like any other fix. You know, it's like, wow. You know, it begins with more of a love bombing with them doing a lot of mirroring, with them really saying and doing a lot of the things to really try and get you hooked in. And so if your type is narcissist, it's going to feel really good. And it's sort of like a high that's too good. You know, you want something you want green tea, you know, no caffeine crash at the end. If you have a lot of espresso, it's going to feel great going up and it's going to feel real crummy coming down.
Speaker #1
I'm stressed even just talking about espresso right now.
Speaker #0
Right. See, so you're familiar right home. My heart's beating. It's so perfect. It's too good to be true. They love everything I love. It's watch out if it feels like it hurts, but watch out if it feels too good.
Speaker #1
What I think what I'm hearing from you is that they know what they're doing, meaning when they go into a relationship, they're fully aware of the tactic or strategy they're applying in this relationship. So, first of all, is that true?
Speaker #0
Certainly for people who have more of a narcissistic personality disorder or are more of a malignant narcissist, there is knowledge and plan. That's part of what is so hurtful is this thoughtfulness around how can I most hook you? How can I most hurt you? And for some of the other types, it may not be quite as. conscious, although it is clearly a strategy that's being used, it's not quite so pointed.
Speaker #1
I see. So, and I know there's different levels. Is this something that once you become aware, if a person who think that they need to change, they're capable of improving and move towards the other direction? Meaning like they put a stop to it and they be aware of their actions and then they're like I want to no longer do this or be this type of person.
Speaker #0
Yeah, it's definitely harder the more fixed or sort of more pathological, so to speak, that it is. It is not typical because of that piece of the inner challenging being so difficult. There's not typically an interest in recovery. However, some people are doing specifically like expanded states research to see if things like MDMA can support narcissist. for breaking down some of that resistance. That said, it tends to be slow work and it takes a long time, which is part of why some of these experimental treatments are being looked at. And maybe you've heard that old saying, most of the people who are in therapy are there because of someone who won't go to therapy. And so typically I'm working with the folks who are there because any kind of relational process with the person that's hurting them is really no longer possible.
Speaker #1
You know, this is kind of circling back to my initial question. I feel like after four years, three, almost four years in therapy with multiple therapists, right? I feel like I don't want to do therapy anymore. Like, I feel like I want to do maintenance work, but I just feel like everyone's fine. I mean, like everyone seemed like they're living a great life. I'm over here suffering and I'm over here thinking that I'm at fault. So I feel like maybe I'm switching the table here and just be like, Other people can go to therapy. I'm fine. Is that narcissistic?
Speaker #0
No. I mean, first of all, there's something to be said for healthy breaks. It is clinically appropriate to take breaks from therapy. It's really intense and deep work. Also, I actually see it as developmentally appropriate. Now, of course, I'm not your therapist. I don't know the exact case. It can be really an important and normative step to start giving things back to people, which is the idea of once that part of the process goes from, well, I'm crazy, I'm wrong, I don't know what's happening. I'm being so hurtful by having boundaries. They don't use that word because that's not what's cognitively held, but start to give it back. Well, actually, you hurt me. That's a you problem. That's on your side of the street, a very important part of the recovery process. And so, you know, and heck, it's important to get mad if we just don't feel our anger. That is going to turn into sickness in the body. It's going to block us from other emotions. And it's going to prevent us from being right in right relationship with our own internal world.
Speaker #1
Right. So hypothetically, if I were to be dating a narcissist right now and I want to leave, what are some of the strategy that you can share with me so I can leave safely? Because I would believe that if I were to be with this person in the beginning, something draw me to it. Right. So like, how do I. built this like awareness and also try to stop myself from going back as well as leave safely and make sure the narcissist doesn't hurt me in the process?
Speaker #0
It's a really important question because there can be some serious safety considerations, you know, especially with a more fixed narcissist. There can be a real increase of danger around abuse stalking, you know, when it comes to just any relationship where there's abuse. the likelihood of harm really increases once the relationship ends because there is a really big drive for retaliation in a lot of cases. And so on one hand, if you're experiencing full-on abuse, you know, something as important as a safety plan around, well, where can you go? How can you move around your regular routines? Are there places you can go where this person doesn't know, can't reach you, can't find you? Because if they know your daily routine, all of a sudden they may start just popping up in it. In terms of you know, outside just the safety planning for abuse, there's a lot of internal readiness. So one is to start to recognize that the greatness of the narcissist is actually a projection of our own wish and potential. And so to take some of that back and then to also do a really honest internal inventory around our own codependence. Because if we have codependent parts, then when someone hurts us, the instinct will be to lean in, to move towards, to fix. And unless we can be aware that we are having that urge to lean in when people hurt us, it's going to be very hard to see, well, why am I even still here? Right. Can feel really powerless. Like I can't help myself. I can't leave. And so to name where we have those habits is a really important part of understanding how we remain stuck. And then, of course, one of the biggest things is to take a leap of faith. Because I believe for everyone who's in this narcissistic dynamic, inside their inner healer, that authentic self is still whispering, no matter how quiet, something is not right here. This does not feel good. This is not how it's supposed to be. This can be better. And the leap of faith is to go against all of our own codependence, all of the potential that we see, all of the sunk costs of the relationship, and to believe our interior world that's saying, this can be better. And to take that leap, despite so many different protectors and parts of the self saying, don't do this. This isn't real. I'm so bad or wrong for leaving them, especially if it's someone who's more covert. Oh, I'm just so sick. I need you in my life. I'm just so beaten down. You need to be here, right? It can build this story. I'm so selfish to leave. But to trust that inner knowing, this is not what is meant for me.
Speaker #1
Earlier you said, when it hurts, we tend to Lean in, right? Lean into it. Why is that? Like, is there like a biology component to it? Or is that because we think we can rewrite history, we can do it better next time to repeat a pattern? I'm just curious, do you know, like, why people want it to get hurt?
Speaker #0
Yeah, well, you know, I think there are a lot of reasons for that. And I do think that it is basically biopsychological in that a lot of the time, if we take it back to the family, right? How did my nervous system learn that this was normal? How did I learn that when something hurts, I lean in, not run away, right? Because that seems very antithetical to survival. And for the young child, connection socially is the same as food, water, and shelter in terms of survival needs. And so a child in a narcissistic family dynamic will render themselves insane, essentially, rather than to acknowledge the person I am. dependent on for my survival, does not have my best interests at heart, and are at sometimes very overtly harmful. A child's brain just cannot do that. And so it short circuits basically and says, well, I'm crazy and bad and broken. I have this flaw. And that helps them survive and stay there. It's very adaptive. It's very brilliant. There's nothing wrong that that happens. It is a effective survival strategy. Then we grow up and we go out into the world and our internal wiring is around Well, if something hurts, well, I'm wrong. Well, I need to stay connected. And so there are all these unconscious beliefs that have already taken root around, well, I need to be there to serve the other or my internal world. It doesn't matter. It's not important. I'm just wrong. And it goes out and it perpetuates. Now, unconsciously, there is the hope, well, this time it will be different. This time I can change them. This time I'll find out that I'm good. And it continues this pattern over and over. And that tends to make people more likely to end up in this similar situation because to their nervous system, that kind of chaos and scarcity and insecurity, it's like, it feels right like home.
Speaker #1
Right. I can still relate to that. I'm seriously concerned about my dating life now because I definitely, I like to fix whoever I'm dating. There's some glory to it. And I know that it is from my childhood. And I think that to a certain degree, I'm still fixing. relationship with my families, you know, and the people around me. And I think that I can totally see why people would jump into another one because it's like the same thing. Like I relax by watching scary movies. There's something about screaming just make me feel like, okay, this is what my nervous system is pretty used to. Um, but we're changing. I guess I'm not going to cancel my therapy sessions. I need help. But, but, um, I guess my next question is, we talked about inner awareness, inner healing. What are some of the things that people can start to work on? And, you know, maybe leaving narcissistic relationship, it's too big of a jump right now. But what are some of the smaller steps they can take today to help them leave this type of relationship in the long run?
Speaker #0
Yeah. Absolutely. You know, so important. Such a great question because we really have to start where we are and to leave maybe a few steps down the road. And so an aspect of what narcissistic abuse does for us or to us is to really detach us from our inner knowing and degrade our inner anchor around how we perceive and know life. And that is what part of what makes manipulation that much more potent, right? It's like I've unhooked. from my inner knowing in that sense something is wrong. And so what we can do, and this is good for all sorts of people who have boundary challenges or otherwise have this kind of, I have a fatal flaw thinking, is to practice being in our interiority, which is to say, well, what do I like here? Start to know the self. What do I enjoy and can I follow that? Start to create a new feedback loop between the inner world and the outer world, which is, well, I feel like I want this thing or I feel this way. And then to behave in correspondence to that, to start to strengthen and rewire the connection to the inner anchor that will help build up our own self-containment in a way and will help us really cue into that inner voice. because that's a lot of what's been degraded. And then to see what wants to emerge from there, right? So like, oh, I kind of think I want to paint, but I don't know if it really matters or if it's going to be any good. Girl, you feel it, do it. See what it's like to just start being responsive to yourself and your inner world and to also notice your preferences. You know, I'll play this game with people sometimes. Can I try it with you?
Speaker #1
Yeah, totally. I love it.
Speaker #0
Okay. No matter what I ask of you, you're going to say yes, all right?
Speaker #1
Okay.
Speaker #0
Okay. Will you have me on your podcast?
Speaker #1
Yes.
Speaker #0
Would you like to go out for drinks this weekend?
Speaker #1
Yes.
Speaker #0
Would you like to have me over for your next family holiday?
Speaker #1
Yes.
Speaker #0
Would you write me a check for a thousand dollars?
Speaker #1
Yes.
Speaker #0
Can I come over to your place and have a party there?
Speaker #1
Yes.
Speaker #0
Now I'm guessing even though you said yes and all those things, a bunch of them felt different. Tell me about what your experience was.
Speaker #1
The first one, podcast, obviously. Right. And then second one, drinks. Absolutely. Anytime. I feel like it was the third one, the holiday party. Oh, sorry. No, the family party. I was like, oh, maybe. I actually thought about it. I was like, it seems super nice, super cool. It wouldn't hurt, right? I was like, maybe that could do. The fourth one was the $1,000. I was like, oh, I can buy a lot of skincare with that. So I don't know. And then the last one was like through a party at my place. Fuck no. There's no way. I love Queen. So you're not coming. See ya.
Speaker #0
That's right. That's right. Okay. And so you knew that you're describing how you knew cognitively, but tell me, did you notice if there's any difference in how the yeses hit in your body?
Speaker #1
Right. I feel like when we were asking the later three questions, when you were asking the later three questions, I feel like I couldn't answer. Like there's a stopper around my gut area. Like there's something coming up to kind of try to like. close my throat to not say yes to you.
Speaker #0
Exactly, right? And these are really subtle cues that our body is giving. The knowledge was there, right? There's a correlated somatic experience. And so typically what will start to happen and is all too encouraged in many different relationships is to start to ignore and dismiss those things or become so disconnected from them we don't even understand what our body is trying to tell us. And so a lot of this work is about that inner responsiveness. And trying to really create an inner key. Well, what are the yeses that I feel like the energy can flow with me? And what are the yeses where actually it does feel like something wants to close my throat? And so following those and starting to, you know, it's a two-part process. I need to hear my inner voice and I need to trust it enough to listen. And so any practices that align us with that and the responses from our body are going to be great ways to build skills while you're still in that pre-contemplation phase of is this relationship me?
Speaker #1
Let's talk about follow your body and your intuition. I think that this goes back to the age old, you know, question. Do people really don't know what's good for them? And the answer is 90% of the time, we do know what's good for us. For example, eat your vegetables, right? Don't drink as much soda. As much as we have the knowledge and we know sometimes we will get sick, I feel like there's still like some sort of addiction to it.
Speaker #0
Because your body is in this loop, feedback loop for so long, your biochemistry has changed to a certain degree. Now it's almost like as much as your body is telling you no, you're bypassing it. You're overcoming the signal. You're trying to go back to who you are. And I know that you mentioned to pay more attention about what you like, what you don't like. Then my question to you is, when we add a crossroad and we know. the right choice, the wrong choice, but our body is so conditioned and addicted to certain lifestyle. How do we find the courage to stop ourselves from heading down the same road once again?
Speaker #1
Sure. Oh my gosh, it's so important. You know, I invite working, there are a lot of answers to this, and so I'll share what it's like when you work with me. One is about creating a shift from the mindset of I keep doing. this keeps happening to me to I keep doing this, which is to say from, oh, well, I don't know what's good for me. I hurt myself. But rather to this lens of I'm an adaptive human. There is a reason why I have this compulsive behavior. And so a big aspect when those moments come around, because the compulsive moment, it can be so strong, so immersive, it feels so hard to say no to. And so increasing insight around, well, what's the paired emotion that's trying to be you pushed away, separated, moved away from, snuffed out through this compulsive behavior. Because often the compulsion will help for a little bit, but it's not curative or transformative. It will just create satisfaction in a moment to the compulsion, but the underlying issue of I'm overwhelmed, I have so much shame, whatever that experience is that's coming up, it's still going to be rumbling down below. And so to gain a sense of, oh, well, when I feel like I want to overeat, or I want to use a substance or anything that's composed of skin pick, right? It's like, well, gaining a deeper insight for what's arising for me. And then if you're working with me, the way that I might do that is who's the part that's underneath the compulsion? What's that feeling? And then building this kind of inner connection to that part to say, how can I work with that part directly rather than through this adaptation? If I want to eat because I want to push away feelings of shame, well, how can I build a relationship to the part of me that feels shame And and work with it to then slip in some compassion or even harm reduction. Okay, I don't want to have my regular compulsion, but something needs to happen here, especially at the beginning of this process. What can I do that is safer? What can I do that reduces the impact of this compulsion and lets me get through this moment? And so some of those pieces, and when we do that and have a sense for who is underneath the compulsion and have compassion for them. then it's easier to keep a promise to ourself or to make a choice, right? It's a lot easier to say, well, I'm harming myself, me, an adult, than to say, oh, well, there's eight-year-old me who felt totally unheard, who needed to have a behavior in order to deal with the overwhelm of the emotions and to actually think, well, okay, well, actually, I'm working with her. I'm working with this eight-year-old, and what does she need? She need me to move my body? She need me to have a temper tantrum in my bed, punch a pillow or push on a wall or just... stay with it. And then it becomes a lot easier to make better choices or safer choices and know that we're just not always going to get it right. But that when we keep promises to ourself, our inner world is watching and it matters. And that's how we create a repair to the self-relationship and show I am the one I am waiting for. I do not need this behavior to make me feel better. I don't need to externalize to find a parent type who's going to make me feel better. I am the one I have been waiting for. And to really feel the confidence that that brings of I have the capacity to take care of myself and do the most loving thing in any moment for myself.
Speaker #0
I love that. What I'm also hearing you're saying, and this is something that I'm currently working on, is recognize the fact that I have a choice. You know, I can make my own decision and understanding, you know, where were some of the old pattern truly came from and say, I can work with that part of me. you understand that I am choosing to go down certain path versus if I feel like before I was just so overwhelmed from my past and my emotions and my feelings and I don't even know where to begin. Yeah,
Speaker #1
absolutely. Right. It's sort of that process of going for insight. Why is this happening? Why am I doing this? And then behavioral. Well, can I take a little step or can I draw boundaries sooner or can I let go of their response to my boundary a little bit? faster. And we conceptualize ourself as having this inner healing intelligence, this idea that a part of us naturally wants to move towards wholeness. Then we have something to lean on. We have a resource inside, which is to say my adaptations may not have always been the best, but I'm here and I'm alive and I'm better than I would have been anyway. And to build a relationship with that part of us trusting, we naturally want to move towards health given the opportunity.
Speaker #0
Right. So how does a person walking out of narcissistic relationship to. rebuild their identity and trust themselves again.
Speaker #1
Yeah. You know, there's so much about just organizing what's happened. There's so much around confusion and am I the hurtful one, right? So much of the manipulation is you're hurting me, not the other way around. You know, there's some really classic moves. There's DARVO, which is defend, attack, reverse victim and offender. And this is a strategy that narcissists will do to shift blame when they're being hurtful to the other person.
Speaker #0
I had a very recent experience where I was guest-lit and basically everything that this person said to me were reframed as I heard it wrong and they didn't say it. I made it too personal. I became angry on false information. I was defensive because they felt like they couldn't even have a conversation with me because I was being unreasonable, even though, you know. I got to that point because untrue things were said and manipulated. So I feel like I can relate to that. I mean, I never had that experience until this is what it's meant to be. The universe works its way around. Just let me truly have a personal closeness to it.
Speaker #1
Absolutely. Now, if I was going to project on your experience, I'd say, you know, if that happened to me, I would feel really confused. I would start to feel dissociated. I would have all this deep questioning of myself and what I knew. And it would be so disorienting.
Speaker #0
Mm hmm. I'm still angry. Listen, first of all, we still don't know if this is a person narcissistic because now this person is not here to defend themselves. But I would also argue there's a certain part of me make me so. anger is because I allowed this person for the longest time. I didn't want to see them for who they truly are. I gave them the benefit of the doubt. I let them to take advantage of me. I allowed the time to go, like all the incidents to go on to the point that I'm just like, okay, I think that you're way out of line. You crossed all the boundaries and I have to put a foot down. Right. And I think that's like the reason why I'm still recovering. Like I'm not even I you know, this person is irrelevant. But for some reason, it cuts so deep.
Speaker #1
It does. I mean, the attack in a way is so personal, right? It's against this relationship, self-trust, our relationship and orientation to reality and any hope of a shared reality. And so the place where it hurts us is really deep. And it's in this like... intimate self-relationship, our relationship to life. And so it can leave a huge impact, even if it's not someone that we were ultimately close with for a long time or had a lot of work with. And so that degree of like, I am this mad, I am this mad about this immediate red flag, you know, like,
Speaker #0
yeah,
Speaker #1
wow, this has really gotten me outside of myself. And it just can be really, you know, like you said, like, makes you question yourself sort of based in reality, right? And so this work with the self-blame around, well, and I let that happen and this and that. It's like, well, this is their goal. This is the skill, right? Like it's hard to beat someone at their own game. And especially if you're coming as like an open-hearted person trying to have a relationship and you're walking into a game that you don't know about.
Speaker #0
Right.
Speaker #1
It's really tough to walk away from that unscathed.
Speaker #0
Like help me to process this because I'm not going to lie. I'm so angry. And there are moments where I'm just like. There are a million things I want to say to this person, to which, by the way, I had a very serious conversation with this person. I laid out everything this person has said to me that's incorrect. I share with them the trust has been broken. I do not trust you anymore. And it may be in the near future we can rebuild this, but I highly doubt it. And I pretty much shared how I feel and why I feel certain ways. But I'm still so angry. Like, can you help me to like just move on? And the thing is about me, one more thing, is that I don't even get angry like this. Like this is me every three years. Like somebody really just crossed the line and I'm like, I can't even let this go.
Speaker #1
Yeah, absolutely. Well, you know, I think. Such a big part of this is you don't need their permission for what you're saying to be true. And what you just mentioned is, well, the inner me, the little child did not have a voice that mattered. And so what I would invite is this question of, well, how can it matter enough to you? You don't need them to agree for it to be real. You need to stand by yourself for it to be real. Right. Part of especially when it's a more intense narcissistic situation. You can lay it all out like a legal briefing. You can make it the most logical receipts for days. Listen, I've written. You cannot believe the emails I have written. It doesn't matter because it doesn't fit into their worldview. And so to be able to look at that, that outline and say, this is enough for me. This is real for me. To journal and ask yourself the question, what would it be like if I assumed that this was all a true experience? right, to enter that world where it was already just absolutely factual. and grounded and rather than I need you to see this, right? That's part of the codependent. I mean, there's justice needs in there as well, but also some of the codependence, which is I need you to approve of this boundary. I need you to see it. And working against codependency says it's enough that I see this. I'm allowed to be my independent person and to self-validate. This is the reality of what I experienced. And then if you're working with me, we would do the inner child work or I would have you if you were into it. close your eyes and imagine this young part and to say to it directly, I believe you. I know that this was true. I want to hear your voice. And then to leave space and let that interior part speak back to you and just to listen. And it sounds sometimes to people, I think like, yeah, what difference is that going to make? It makes a tremendous difference in terms of shifting that. And so, you know, there's a version in which we could do a small experiment with that. But that kind of interior parts work is what I would recommend to close the loop on that validation. And rather than externalize it, I need you to see how dirty you did me to just say inside, I know that that was not right. And that is for sure how it was because I trust my feeling and my experience. And thus become a good and loving parent to that inner child while also solidifying your own reality for what you know it is.
Speaker #0
Love it. Even though I didn't close my eyes because my current therapist. have me do similar work where we go back to the childhood. So like when you were talking, I kind of just had this image of in my head where like, you know, having this kid kind of like being validated by himself. And I think that that kind of just triggered a lot of the times when I was a child that I needed the grown-up to validate me, but they didn't, right? So I constantly trying to have them see me and see like why they were in Iran. So I feel like my entire life is about what's about being seen, right? And I feel like this is one of the situations where you're right. Like, I don't need your approval. I don't need your validation. I know what I saw. I know what I heard. You know, I'm a Libra. I'm very fair. All that. But this is super, super helpful. And I know that, you know, you work with clients. If people want to find you, how can they best find you?
Speaker #1
Yeah, absolutely. People can reach out to me through my website, which is taylorstherapyservices.com. That's Taylor with an S. And on there, you can find, of course, my therapy services. But then I also provide breath work. I have a way that people can work with me in expanded states and otherwise some different coaching options. So everything can be found there. And yeah, if I resonate with you, please reach out. We can do some work.
Speaker #0
I love it. Thank you, Taylor, so much. This is super helpful. I feel... healed a little bit. I definitely feel like I can now process my journey in a different way. So thank you so, so much.
Speaker #1
It's my pleasure.
Speaker #0
Thanks so much for having me. And if somebody came to mind while you're listening, please do make sure to send this episode to them. You can also find me on TikTok, Instagram, YouTube, Apple Podcasts, and Spotify. All linked below. Until next time, stay sharp, stay intentional, and be good.

About The Zhen Podcast

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About The Zhen Podcast

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

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Description

If you have ever left a conversation feeling like you completely lost your grip on reality — you were not imagining it. That was intentional.

If you have ever wondered whether you were the problem — this episode is going to answer that question once and for all.

Connect with Taylor Simon: 🌐 taylorstherapyservices.com 📱

The Zhen Podcast is mental wellness for peopl...

Transcription

Speaker #0
Because this is not really a thought that narcissistic people tend to have. The thought that they're having is, I'm so misunderstood, I'm the victim, nobody gets me here. There is such a spectrum from narcissistic behaviors to narcissistic coping mechanisms to an actual pathological narcissist in which it is a personality disorder. The likelihood of harm really increases once the relationship ends because there's a really big drive for retaliation in a lot of cases. Such a big part of this is you don't need their permission for what you're saying to be true.
Speaker #1
Welcome back, everybody, to the podcast. So today we have the amazing Taylor Simon joining us. Thank you so much for being with us today, Taylor. Will you please also share with the audience what you do? How do you get into this industry?
Speaker #0
Yeah, absolutely. So I am currently a therapist and psychedelic researcher in San Francisco. My therapy work is focused on narcissistic abuse recovery. I got into this line of work after really a culmination of a few factors and a couple of relationships in which I was really feeling. quite marginalized and confused and just walked away really not feeling well. And so eventually with time, I really got into those relationships in therapy to help bring me back to myself. And so after enough work in that, you know, that's a really tough path. And so I really felt that I also wanted to share this work, share the fruits of my journey and help others come back to themselves after toxic, hurtful, and narcissistic relationships.
Speaker #1
that's amazing so let's get into it so I think that when you and I first connected um I shared with you I was like I don't really know I don't think that I've ever been in narcissistic relationship whether it's romantic friendship or ah I feel like family maybe I do have this one person where I'm like oh you're borderline but the truth is I don't really know the definition even though like I can google that But like, I feel like it must be so different from day to day talking with a narcissistic person or being in a relationship with them. So would you please share with us how do we identify when, number one, you are talking to a narcissist, number two, if you are in a narcissistic relationship?
Speaker #0
Yeah, absolutely. You know, there are a lot of different ways in which narcissistic behaviors emerge. And there is such a spectrum from narcissistic behaviors. to narcissistic coping mechanisms to an actual pathological narcissist in which it is a personality disorder. And so there is a lot of variance, some who are really grandiose and believe that they are the answer, they are the cure, they are the everything. But then there are also more covert individuals who hide behind, well, I'm just doing this all for the community, I'm doing this for the family. And so there are lots of different presentations and some of the similar features are going to be a very... fixed self-orientation, a certain kind of fragility around being challenged, a real lack of empathy or an ability to get into other people's shoes, and then a lot of secondary and tertiary behaviors that really reinforce that around control, manipulation, using financial or emotional leverage, or other things such as triangulation in which the use of other people is leveraged to create outcomes that that individual wants that are most serving to themselves and that fragile in our world.
Speaker #1
That makes sense. I once heard this joke. Well, if I say it, I feel like at this moment, it wouldn't be as funny, but basically saying, can you imagine the narcissist in their therapy sessions being validated by their therapists? Because, you know, I go through therapy sessions. And for a very long period of time, I guess like my struggle was. I am appeasing everyone. So like the whole journey was to be like, this is about you, right? This is like, you need to take care of yourself. But I can only imagine the people who already take care of themselves, maybe to a certain unhealthy way, now being validated those sessions. So my follow-up question is, where do we draw the line? You know, like how much of... self-serving, self-caring, self-attention is a healthy amount and how much is like borderline, you know, they could have some narcissist traits.
Speaker #0
Absolutely. I'm so glad that you bring up the narcissist in therapy because this is such a big... thing that goes around. People talk about this. And just in my experience and that of what's reported by my peers, for the first few sessions, you know, it's really easy for a therapist to kind of be positioned. And the whole point of the beginning of therapy is to build a relationship, right? So there's not a lot of challenging before there's an alliance between the therapist and the client. However, what is typically reported and that I've observed is that this works for about four to eight sessions. But around session eight, once you get to the middle work of therapy, any kind of challenging, which is a really normal part of therapy, will just cause a collapse and then a severing with this narcissist. And so typically, but not always, what is true is that that statement is a fact for a little while. And as soon as that questioning comes up, the narcissist will abandon the therapeutic relationship.
Speaker #1
OK, say more.
Speaker #0
So this is something that, you know, I think that people have a fear that the therapist doesn't notice. And for some people, maybe on that spectrum of narcissistic behaviors, right, maybe the narcissistic behaviors are a result of genuine trauma and wounding. And the person really does need a lot poured into them. OK, that's going to be a really different experience than with someone who just will truly collapse with challenge. And that can be felt as really different internally. And so working with people who are more narcissistic, you know, the ability to self-reflect. on the way that their behaviors are and that impact and to have that level of insight is really, really hindered. And so that's something that can really make it much easier. That said, sometimes a really self-oriented individual is in therapy because they have a lot of attachment trauma. They have a lot of developmental trauma and do need a lot of support, right? This is not to say even a narcissist shouldn't have self-compassion, right? Because there are people who are really narcissistic who do improve. and do grow and are able to have a little bit more solidity on the inside and be able to sit with a little bit more accountability. And so in a way, we want to leave open the ability to hold compassion that even someone who's really fixed can change. However, when it gets to a point of a personality disorder, well, then it can be a lot harder to know, is this really serving this individual? This is also why it's really hard in couples counseling to continue if one person is really strongly narcissistic. Because in order to keep the alliance going with that one person, the couples counselor is then invited to actually participate in the abuse of the other partner. And so in those cases, you actually couldn't even give couples counseling because it would be what we would consider contraindicated.
Speaker #1
Right. Okay. So is, first of all, is narcissism... Like, is this genetic or is this something like the environment gradually shipped them into a certain way? Is this nature or nurture?
Speaker #0
Yeah, you know, I think that there can be a lot of both. But the way that I really frame this is that I work a lot within both people recovering from the individual narcissist who have had probably more likely a romantic relationship that's been really harmful and left a mark. But I also connect to narcissistic symptoms. So. What is a narcissistic family system? Rather than having a family that's based off of connection and love and community, this is a family that is really related over power and privilege and position. And so in this family, let's say that there's a narcissistic parent and multiple children. One child will typically fulfill the role of the golden child, taking on the most qualities of that narcissistic parent because they're so praised. They're really reaffirmed. And within that system, they're really held up. They're given a lot of benefit and a lot of privilege where other children may be holding more projections like the scapegoat child. And so that child that's really been conditioned and rewarded for being narcissistically oriented will then go out into the world and behave that way. And it creates a cycle.
Speaker #1
Wow. I'm trying to apply this to my own life right now. And I'm just thinking, And I'm not saying that. I could potentially be narcissistic. But like, I recently had a situation where I felt like I was dealing with a narcissist. You know this, I share a little bit with you. And I've been seeing my therapist for three years. And I actually, multiple times where I wondered if I want to take a pause, but I didn't. Until recently, when I repeated back what happened to me. to my therapist and my therapist pretty much didn't really listen to my side of story. So I feel like my therapist wasn't on my side. So now I'm seriously considering pausing this relationship with her. because I've been thinking about it. And now that you were saying that, like, if the person being challenged in the therapy session could potentially end the relationship with their therapist, I'm trying to think, like, do I have narcissist-like symptoms? But we've been seeing each other for three years. So I feel like I'm okay. What are other symptoms? Maybe I have to self-diagnose a little bit.
Speaker #0
You know, let me tell you that you are wondering that, that you're thinking about that. is my immediate gut reaction is probably not. Because this is not really a thought that narcissistic people tend to have. The thought that they're having is, I'm so misunderstood. I'm the victim. Nobody gets me here. And so usually, and this can actually really be a common experience for those who have experienced narcissistic abuse is wondering, well, is it me, right? Because there's this amount of gaslighting and this moving away from the inner anchor of self-knowledge. then has people seeing through this other perspective. And so I don't know the exact situation that happened, but I will say that you're wondering this makes me think you're probably doing all right. Now that's not diagnostic, but that is a typically not a question that narcissistic individuals are asking themselves.
Speaker #1
I see. Okay. Then let's talk about, am I attracted to narcissists? I feel like when I'm looking for somebody in a romantic setting, I feel like I'm looking for someone. powerful. But then like, not like, you know, like there are people who they pretend to be powerful, but then you look at them and you're like, oh, I feel like there's a lot of insecurity behind it. But like when I'm looking for something, I'm looking for someone who's fundamentally self-aware, you know, they're like sure of themselves. So what are some of the things I need to be careful for? Because I can see myself easily data narcissist and not even knowing that I am in a narcissistic relationship because I'm so drawn to their powerful presence, right? They know what they want. They go after what they want. They don't let anything stop them. To a certain degree, it's a lot of good qualities that the society is selling us, right? Especially in business and career. So how can I be careful of not dating a narcissist?
Speaker #0
I mean, it's such an important question. You know, one aspect of a successful narcissist is that they've got charisma. In order to get away with abuse or keeping someone on hand to exploit in some way, you have to be good enough at it that people will stay. If you just come out the gate and you are a monster, no one's going to get hooked. And so something that I often will, two things really come to mind. One is make sure that what is said matches what is real. I think that part of what's so confusing for people is listening to a story, listening to an apology. And that's one thing that's happening up here. But the second track is what's actually happening in manifest reality, the actual behaviors. And so when there's a really big gap between those two things, that is something to keep an eye out for. Do they say that, oh, they're all business and have these powerful meetings, this and that, but really doesn't seem like their calendar is so booked. It doesn't seem like. This is as much action as talk. Now, that's something to watch for because of the grandiosity, right? It's really hard at first to see the difference between what is charisma that is empty and what is confidence. That's often why narcissistic people can sort of slide through for so well for so long. So that's one piece. Something I often tell people that work with me if narcissists are their type, you know what I say is like, make sure the relationship feels good, but not too good. Right. Just like any other fix. You know, it's like, wow. You know, it begins with more of a love bombing with them doing a lot of mirroring, with them really saying and doing a lot of the things to really try and get you hooked in. And so if your type is narcissist, it's going to feel really good. And it's sort of like a high that's too good. You know, you want something you want green tea, you know, no caffeine crash at the end. If you have a lot of espresso, it's going to feel great going up and it's going to feel real crummy coming down.
Speaker #1
I'm stressed even just talking about espresso right now.
Speaker #0
Right. See, so you're familiar right home. My heart's beating. It's so perfect. It's too good to be true. They love everything I love. It's watch out if it feels like it hurts, but watch out if it feels too good.
Speaker #1
What I think what I'm hearing from you is that they know what they're doing, meaning when they go into a relationship, they're fully aware of the tactic or strategy they're applying in this relationship. So, first of all, is that true?
Speaker #0
Certainly for people who have more of a narcissistic personality disorder or are more of a malignant narcissist, there is knowledge and plan. That's part of what is so hurtful is this thoughtfulness around how can I most hook you? How can I most hurt you? And for some of the other types, it may not be quite as. conscious, although it is clearly a strategy that's being used, it's not quite so pointed.
Speaker #1
I see. So, and I know there's different levels. Is this something that once you become aware, if a person who think that they need to change, they're capable of improving and move towards the other direction? Meaning like they put a stop to it and they be aware of their actions and then they're like I want to no longer do this or be this type of person.
Speaker #0
Yeah, it's definitely harder the more fixed or sort of more pathological, so to speak, that it is. It is not typical because of that piece of the inner challenging being so difficult. There's not typically an interest in recovery. However, some people are doing specifically like expanded states research to see if things like MDMA can support narcissist. for breaking down some of that resistance. That said, it tends to be slow work and it takes a long time, which is part of why some of these experimental treatments are being looked at. And maybe you've heard that old saying, most of the people who are in therapy are there because of someone who won't go to therapy. And so typically I'm working with the folks who are there because any kind of relational process with the person that's hurting them is really no longer possible.
Speaker #1
You know, this is kind of circling back to my initial question. I feel like after four years, three, almost four years in therapy with multiple therapists, right? I feel like I don't want to do therapy anymore. Like, I feel like I want to do maintenance work, but I just feel like everyone's fine. I mean, like everyone seemed like they're living a great life. I'm over here suffering and I'm over here thinking that I'm at fault. So I feel like maybe I'm switching the table here and just be like, Other people can go to therapy. I'm fine. Is that narcissistic?
Speaker #0
No. I mean, first of all, there's something to be said for healthy breaks. It is clinically appropriate to take breaks from therapy. It's really intense and deep work. Also, I actually see it as developmentally appropriate. Now, of course, I'm not your therapist. I don't know the exact case. It can be really an important and normative step to start giving things back to people, which is the idea of once that part of the process goes from, well, I'm crazy, I'm wrong, I don't know what's happening. I'm being so hurtful by having boundaries. They don't use that word because that's not what's cognitively held, but start to give it back. Well, actually, you hurt me. That's a you problem. That's on your side of the street, a very important part of the recovery process. And so, you know, and heck, it's important to get mad if we just don't feel our anger. That is going to turn into sickness in the body. It's going to block us from other emotions. And it's going to prevent us from being right in right relationship with our own internal world.
Speaker #1
Right. So hypothetically, if I were to be dating a narcissist right now and I want to leave, what are some of the strategy that you can share with me so I can leave safely? Because I would believe that if I were to be with this person in the beginning, something draw me to it. Right. So like, how do I. built this like awareness and also try to stop myself from going back as well as leave safely and make sure the narcissist doesn't hurt me in the process?
Speaker #0
It's a really important question because there can be some serious safety considerations, you know, especially with a more fixed narcissist. There can be a real increase of danger around abuse stalking, you know, when it comes to just any relationship where there's abuse. the likelihood of harm really increases once the relationship ends because there is a really big drive for retaliation in a lot of cases. And so on one hand, if you're experiencing full-on abuse, you know, something as important as a safety plan around, well, where can you go? How can you move around your regular routines? Are there places you can go where this person doesn't know, can't reach you, can't find you? Because if they know your daily routine, all of a sudden they may start just popping up in it. In terms of you know, outside just the safety planning for abuse, there's a lot of internal readiness. So one is to start to recognize that the greatness of the narcissist is actually a projection of our own wish and potential. And so to take some of that back and then to also do a really honest internal inventory around our own codependence. Because if we have codependent parts, then when someone hurts us, the instinct will be to lean in, to move towards, to fix. And unless we can be aware that we are having that urge to lean in when people hurt us, it's going to be very hard to see, well, why am I even still here? Right. Can feel really powerless. Like I can't help myself. I can't leave. And so to name where we have those habits is a really important part of understanding how we remain stuck. And then, of course, one of the biggest things is to take a leap of faith. Because I believe for everyone who's in this narcissistic dynamic, inside their inner healer, that authentic self is still whispering, no matter how quiet, something is not right here. This does not feel good. This is not how it's supposed to be. This can be better. And the leap of faith is to go against all of our own codependence, all of the potential that we see, all of the sunk costs of the relationship, and to believe our interior world that's saying, this can be better. And to take that leap, despite so many different protectors and parts of the self saying, don't do this. This isn't real. I'm so bad or wrong for leaving them, especially if it's someone who's more covert. Oh, I'm just so sick. I need you in my life. I'm just so beaten down. You need to be here, right? It can build this story. I'm so selfish to leave. But to trust that inner knowing, this is not what is meant for me.
Speaker #1
Earlier you said, when it hurts, we tend to Lean in, right? Lean into it. Why is that? Like, is there like a biology component to it? Or is that because we think we can rewrite history, we can do it better next time to repeat a pattern? I'm just curious, do you know, like, why people want it to get hurt?
Speaker #0
Yeah, well, you know, I think there are a lot of reasons for that. And I do think that it is basically biopsychological in that a lot of the time, if we take it back to the family, right? How did my nervous system learn that this was normal? How did I learn that when something hurts, I lean in, not run away, right? Because that seems very antithetical to survival. And for the young child, connection socially is the same as food, water, and shelter in terms of survival needs. And so a child in a narcissistic family dynamic will render themselves insane, essentially, rather than to acknowledge the person I am. dependent on for my survival, does not have my best interests at heart, and are at sometimes very overtly harmful. A child's brain just cannot do that. And so it short circuits basically and says, well, I'm crazy and bad and broken. I have this flaw. And that helps them survive and stay there. It's very adaptive. It's very brilliant. There's nothing wrong that that happens. It is a effective survival strategy. Then we grow up and we go out into the world and our internal wiring is around Well, if something hurts, well, I'm wrong. Well, I need to stay connected. And so there are all these unconscious beliefs that have already taken root around, well, I need to be there to serve the other or my internal world. It doesn't matter. It's not important. I'm just wrong. And it goes out and it perpetuates. Now, unconsciously, there is the hope, well, this time it will be different. This time I can change them. This time I'll find out that I'm good. And it continues this pattern over and over. And that tends to make people more likely to end up in this similar situation because to their nervous system, that kind of chaos and scarcity and insecurity, it's like, it feels right like home.
Speaker #1
Right. I can still relate to that. I'm seriously concerned about my dating life now because I definitely, I like to fix whoever I'm dating. There's some glory to it. And I know that it is from my childhood. And I think that to a certain degree, I'm still fixing. relationship with my families, you know, and the people around me. And I think that I can totally see why people would jump into another one because it's like the same thing. Like I relax by watching scary movies. There's something about screaming just make me feel like, okay, this is what my nervous system is pretty used to. Um, but we're changing. I guess I'm not going to cancel my therapy sessions. I need help. But, but, um, I guess my next question is, we talked about inner awareness, inner healing. What are some of the things that people can start to work on? And, you know, maybe leaving narcissistic relationship, it's too big of a jump right now. But what are some of the smaller steps they can take today to help them leave this type of relationship in the long run?
Speaker #0
Yeah. Absolutely. You know, so important. Such a great question because we really have to start where we are and to leave maybe a few steps down the road. And so an aspect of what narcissistic abuse does for us or to us is to really detach us from our inner knowing and degrade our inner anchor around how we perceive and know life. And that is what part of what makes manipulation that much more potent, right? It's like I've unhooked. from my inner knowing in that sense something is wrong. And so what we can do, and this is good for all sorts of people who have boundary challenges or otherwise have this kind of, I have a fatal flaw thinking, is to practice being in our interiority, which is to say, well, what do I like here? Start to know the self. What do I enjoy and can I follow that? Start to create a new feedback loop between the inner world and the outer world, which is, well, I feel like I want this thing or I feel this way. And then to behave in correspondence to that, to start to strengthen and rewire the connection to the inner anchor that will help build up our own self-containment in a way and will help us really cue into that inner voice. because that's a lot of what's been degraded. And then to see what wants to emerge from there, right? So like, oh, I kind of think I want to paint, but I don't know if it really matters or if it's going to be any good. Girl, you feel it, do it. See what it's like to just start being responsive to yourself and your inner world and to also notice your preferences. You know, I'll play this game with people sometimes. Can I try it with you?
Speaker #1
Yeah, totally. I love it.
Speaker #0
Okay. No matter what I ask of you, you're going to say yes, all right?
Speaker #1
Okay.
Speaker #0
Okay. Will you have me on your podcast?
Speaker #1
Yes.
Speaker #0
Would you like to go out for drinks this weekend?
Speaker #1
Yes.
Speaker #0
Would you like to have me over for your next family holiday?
Speaker #1
Yes.
Speaker #0
Would you write me a check for a thousand dollars?
Speaker #1
Yes.
Speaker #0
Can I come over to your place and have a party there?
Speaker #1
Yes.
Speaker #0
Now I'm guessing even though you said yes and all those things, a bunch of them felt different. Tell me about what your experience was.
Speaker #1
The first one, podcast, obviously. Right. And then second one, drinks. Absolutely. Anytime. I feel like it was the third one, the holiday party. Oh, sorry. No, the family party. I was like, oh, maybe. I actually thought about it. I was like, it seems super nice, super cool. It wouldn't hurt, right? I was like, maybe that could do. The fourth one was the $1,000. I was like, oh, I can buy a lot of skincare with that. So I don't know. And then the last one was like through a party at my place. Fuck no. There's no way. I love Queen. So you're not coming. See ya.
Speaker #0
That's right. That's right. Okay. And so you knew that you're describing how you knew cognitively, but tell me, did you notice if there's any difference in how the yeses hit in your body?
Speaker #1
Right. I feel like when we were asking the later three questions, when you were asking the later three questions, I feel like I couldn't answer. Like there's a stopper around my gut area. Like there's something coming up to kind of try to like. close my throat to not say yes to you.
Speaker #0
Exactly, right? And these are really subtle cues that our body is giving. The knowledge was there, right? There's a correlated somatic experience. And so typically what will start to happen and is all too encouraged in many different relationships is to start to ignore and dismiss those things or become so disconnected from them we don't even understand what our body is trying to tell us. And so a lot of this work is about that inner responsiveness. And trying to really create an inner key. Well, what are the yeses that I feel like the energy can flow with me? And what are the yeses where actually it does feel like something wants to close my throat? And so following those and starting to, you know, it's a two-part process. I need to hear my inner voice and I need to trust it enough to listen. And so any practices that align us with that and the responses from our body are going to be great ways to build skills while you're still in that pre-contemplation phase of is this relationship me?
Speaker #1
Let's talk about follow your body and your intuition. I think that this goes back to the age old, you know, question. Do people really don't know what's good for them? And the answer is 90% of the time, we do know what's good for us. For example, eat your vegetables, right? Don't drink as much soda. As much as we have the knowledge and we know sometimes we will get sick, I feel like there's still like some sort of addiction to it.
Speaker #0
Because your body is in this loop, feedback loop for so long, your biochemistry has changed to a certain degree. Now it's almost like as much as your body is telling you no, you're bypassing it. You're overcoming the signal. You're trying to go back to who you are. And I know that you mentioned to pay more attention about what you like, what you don't like. Then my question to you is, when we add a crossroad and we know. the right choice, the wrong choice, but our body is so conditioned and addicted to certain lifestyle. How do we find the courage to stop ourselves from heading down the same road once again?
Speaker #1
Sure. Oh my gosh, it's so important. You know, I invite working, there are a lot of answers to this, and so I'll share what it's like when you work with me. One is about creating a shift from the mindset of I keep doing. this keeps happening to me to I keep doing this, which is to say from, oh, well, I don't know what's good for me. I hurt myself. But rather to this lens of I'm an adaptive human. There is a reason why I have this compulsive behavior. And so a big aspect when those moments come around, because the compulsive moment, it can be so strong, so immersive, it feels so hard to say no to. And so increasing insight around, well, what's the paired emotion that's trying to be you pushed away, separated, moved away from, snuffed out through this compulsive behavior. Because often the compulsion will help for a little bit, but it's not curative or transformative. It will just create satisfaction in a moment to the compulsion, but the underlying issue of I'm overwhelmed, I have so much shame, whatever that experience is that's coming up, it's still going to be rumbling down below. And so to gain a sense of, oh, well, when I feel like I want to overeat, or I want to use a substance or anything that's composed of skin pick, right? It's like, well, gaining a deeper insight for what's arising for me. And then if you're working with me, the way that I might do that is who's the part that's underneath the compulsion? What's that feeling? And then building this kind of inner connection to that part to say, how can I work with that part directly rather than through this adaptation? If I want to eat because I want to push away feelings of shame, well, how can I build a relationship to the part of me that feels shame And and work with it to then slip in some compassion or even harm reduction. Okay, I don't want to have my regular compulsion, but something needs to happen here, especially at the beginning of this process. What can I do that is safer? What can I do that reduces the impact of this compulsion and lets me get through this moment? And so some of those pieces, and when we do that and have a sense for who is underneath the compulsion and have compassion for them. then it's easier to keep a promise to ourself or to make a choice, right? It's a lot easier to say, well, I'm harming myself, me, an adult, than to say, oh, well, there's eight-year-old me who felt totally unheard, who needed to have a behavior in order to deal with the overwhelm of the emotions and to actually think, well, okay, well, actually, I'm working with her. I'm working with this eight-year-old, and what does she need? She need me to move my body? She need me to have a temper tantrum in my bed, punch a pillow or push on a wall or just... stay with it. And then it becomes a lot easier to make better choices or safer choices and know that we're just not always going to get it right. But that when we keep promises to ourself, our inner world is watching and it matters. And that's how we create a repair to the self-relationship and show I am the one I am waiting for. I do not need this behavior to make me feel better. I don't need to externalize to find a parent type who's going to make me feel better. I am the one I have been waiting for. And to really feel the confidence that that brings of I have the capacity to take care of myself and do the most loving thing in any moment for myself.
Speaker #0
I love that. What I'm also hearing you're saying, and this is something that I'm currently working on, is recognize the fact that I have a choice. You know, I can make my own decision and understanding, you know, where were some of the old pattern truly came from and say, I can work with that part of me. you understand that I am choosing to go down certain path versus if I feel like before I was just so overwhelmed from my past and my emotions and my feelings and I don't even know where to begin. Yeah,
Speaker #1
absolutely. Right. It's sort of that process of going for insight. Why is this happening? Why am I doing this? And then behavioral. Well, can I take a little step or can I draw boundaries sooner or can I let go of their response to my boundary a little bit? faster. And we conceptualize ourself as having this inner healing intelligence, this idea that a part of us naturally wants to move towards wholeness. Then we have something to lean on. We have a resource inside, which is to say my adaptations may not have always been the best, but I'm here and I'm alive and I'm better than I would have been anyway. And to build a relationship with that part of us trusting, we naturally want to move towards health given the opportunity.
Speaker #0
Right. So how does a person walking out of narcissistic relationship to. rebuild their identity and trust themselves again.
Speaker #1
Yeah. You know, there's so much about just organizing what's happened. There's so much around confusion and am I the hurtful one, right? So much of the manipulation is you're hurting me, not the other way around. You know, there's some really classic moves. There's DARVO, which is defend, attack, reverse victim and offender. And this is a strategy that narcissists will do to shift blame when they're being hurtful to the other person.
Speaker #0
I had a very recent experience where I was guest-lit and basically everything that this person said to me were reframed as I heard it wrong and they didn't say it. I made it too personal. I became angry on false information. I was defensive because they felt like they couldn't even have a conversation with me because I was being unreasonable, even though, you know. I got to that point because untrue things were said and manipulated. So I feel like I can relate to that. I mean, I never had that experience until this is what it's meant to be. The universe works its way around. Just let me truly have a personal closeness to it.
Speaker #1
Absolutely. Now, if I was going to project on your experience, I'd say, you know, if that happened to me, I would feel really confused. I would start to feel dissociated. I would have all this deep questioning of myself and what I knew. And it would be so disorienting.
Speaker #0
Mm hmm. I'm still angry. Listen, first of all, we still don't know if this is a person narcissistic because now this person is not here to defend themselves. But I would also argue there's a certain part of me make me so. anger is because I allowed this person for the longest time. I didn't want to see them for who they truly are. I gave them the benefit of the doubt. I let them to take advantage of me. I allowed the time to go, like all the incidents to go on to the point that I'm just like, okay, I think that you're way out of line. You crossed all the boundaries and I have to put a foot down. Right. And I think that's like the reason why I'm still recovering. Like I'm not even I you know, this person is irrelevant. But for some reason, it cuts so deep.
Speaker #1
It does. I mean, the attack in a way is so personal, right? It's against this relationship, self-trust, our relationship and orientation to reality and any hope of a shared reality. And so the place where it hurts us is really deep. And it's in this like... intimate self-relationship, our relationship to life. And so it can leave a huge impact, even if it's not someone that we were ultimately close with for a long time or had a lot of work with. And so that degree of like, I am this mad, I am this mad about this immediate red flag, you know, like,
Speaker #0
yeah,
Speaker #1
wow, this has really gotten me outside of myself. And it just can be really, you know, like you said, like, makes you question yourself sort of based in reality, right? And so this work with the self-blame around, well, and I let that happen and this and that. It's like, well, this is their goal. This is the skill, right? Like it's hard to beat someone at their own game. And especially if you're coming as like an open-hearted person trying to have a relationship and you're walking into a game that you don't know about.
Speaker #0
Right.
Speaker #1
It's really tough to walk away from that unscathed.
Speaker #0
Like help me to process this because I'm not going to lie. I'm so angry. And there are moments where I'm just like. There are a million things I want to say to this person, to which, by the way, I had a very serious conversation with this person. I laid out everything this person has said to me that's incorrect. I share with them the trust has been broken. I do not trust you anymore. And it may be in the near future we can rebuild this, but I highly doubt it. And I pretty much shared how I feel and why I feel certain ways. But I'm still so angry. Like, can you help me to like just move on? And the thing is about me, one more thing, is that I don't even get angry like this. Like this is me every three years. Like somebody really just crossed the line and I'm like, I can't even let this go.
Speaker #1
Yeah, absolutely. Well, you know, I think. Such a big part of this is you don't need their permission for what you're saying to be true. And what you just mentioned is, well, the inner me, the little child did not have a voice that mattered. And so what I would invite is this question of, well, how can it matter enough to you? You don't need them to agree for it to be real. You need to stand by yourself for it to be real. Right. Part of especially when it's a more intense narcissistic situation. You can lay it all out like a legal briefing. You can make it the most logical receipts for days. Listen, I've written. You cannot believe the emails I have written. It doesn't matter because it doesn't fit into their worldview. And so to be able to look at that, that outline and say, this is enough for me. This is real for me. To journal and ask yourself the question, what would it be like if I assumed that this was all a true experience? right, to enter that world where it was already just absolutely factual. and grounded and rather than I need you to see this, right? That's part of the codependent. I mean, there's justice needs in there as well, but also some of the codependence, which is I need you to approve of this boundary. I need you to see it. And working against codependency says it's enough that I see this. I'm allowed to be my independent person and to self-validate. This is the reality of what I experienced. And then if you're working with me, we would do the inner child work or I would have you if you were into it. close your eyes and imagine this young part and to say to it directly, I believe you. I know that this was true. I want to hear your voice. And then to leave space and let that interior part speak back to you and just to listen. And it sounds sometimes to people, I think like, yeah, what difference is that going to make? It makes a tremendous difference in terms of shifting that. And so, you know, there's a version in which we could do a small experiment with that. But that kind of interior parts work is what I would recommend to close the loop on that validation. And rather than externalize it, I need you to see how dirty you did me to just say inside, I know that that was not right. And that is for sure how it was because I trust my feeling and my experience. And thus become a good and loving parent to that inner child while also solidifying your own reality for what you know it is.
Speaker #0
Love it. Even though I didn't close my eyes because my current therapist. have me do similar work where we go back to the childhood. So like when you were talking, I kind of just had this image of in my head where like, you know, having this kid kind of like being validated by himself. And I think that that kind of just triggered a lot of the times when I was a child that I needed the grown-up to validate me, but they didn't, right? So I constantly trying to have them see me and see like why they were in Iran. So I feel like my entire life is about what's about being seen, right? And I feel like this is one of the situations where you're right. Like, I don't need your approval. I don't need your validation. I know what I saw. I know what I heard. You know, I'm a Libra. I'm very fair. All that. But this is super, super helpful. And I know that, you know, you work with clients. If people want to find you, how can they best find you?
Speaker #1
Yeah, absolutely. People can reach out to me through my website, which is taylorstherapyservices.com. That's Taylor with an S. And on there, you can find, of course, my therapy services. But then I also provide breath work. I have a way that people can work with me in expanded states and otherwise some different coaching options. So everything can be found there. And yeah, if I resonate with you, please reach out. We can do some work.
Speaker #0
I love it. Thank you, Taylor, so much. This is super helpful. I feel... healed a little bit. I definitely feel like I can now process my journey in a different way. So thank you so, so much.
Speaker #1
It's my pleasure.
Speaker #0
Thanks so much for having me. And if somebody came to mind while you're listening, please do make sure to send this episode to them. You can also find me on TikTok, Instagram, YouTube, Apple Podcasts, and Spotify. All linked below. Until next time, stay sharp, stay intentional, and be good.

About The Zhen Podcast

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

About The Zhen Podcast

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Description

If you have ever left a conversation feeling like you completely lost your grip on reality — you were not imagining it. That was intentional.

If you have ever wondered whether you were the problem — this episode is going to answer that question once and for all.

Connect with Taylor Simon: 🌐 taylorstherapyservices.com 📱

The Zhen Podcast is mental wellness for peopl...

Transcription

Speaker #0
Because this is not really a thought that narcissistic people tend to have. The thought that they're having is, I'm so misunderstood, I'm the victim, nobody gets me here. There is such a spectrum from narcissistic behaviors to narcissistic coping mechanisms to an actual pathological narcissist in which it is a personality disorder. The likelihood of harm really increases once the relationship ends because there's a really big drive for retaliation in a lot of cases. Such a big part of this is you don't need their permission for what you're saying to be true.
Speaker #1
Welcome back, everybody, to the podcast. So today we have the amazing Taylor Simon joining us. Thank you so much for being with us today, Taylor. Will you please also share with the audience what you do? How do you get into this industry?
Speaker #0
Yeah, absolutely. So I am currently a therapist and psychedelic researcher in San Francisco. My therapy work is focused on narcissistic abuse recovery. I got into this line of work after really a culmination of a few factors and a couple of relationships in which I was really feeling. quite marginalized and confused and just walked away really not feeling well. And so eventually with time, I really got into those relationships in therapy to help bring me back to myself. And so after enough work in that, you know, that's a really tough path. And so I really felt that I also wanted to share this work, share the fruits of my journey and help others come back to themselves after toxic, hurtful, and narcissistic relationships.
Speaker #1
that's amazing so let's get into it so I think that when you and I first connected um I shared with you I was like I don't really know I don't think that I've ever been in narcissistic relationship whether it's romantic friendship or ah I feel like family maybe I do have this one person where I'm like oh you're borderline but the truth is I don't really know the definition even though like I can google that But like, I feel like it must be so different from day to day talking with a narcissistic person or being in a relationship with them. So would you please share with us how do we identify when, number one, you are talking to a narcissist, number two, if you are in a narcissistic relationship?
Speaker #0
Yeah, absolutely. You know, there are a lot of different ways in which narcissistic behaviors emerge. And there is such a spectrum from narcissistic behaviors. to narcissistic coping mechanisms to an actual pathological narcissist in which it is a personality disorder. And so there is a lot of variance, some who are really grandiose and believe that they are the answer, they are the cure, they are the everything. But then there are also more covert individuals who hide behind, well, I'm just doing this all for the community, I'm doing this for the family. And so there are lots of different presentations and some of the similar features are going to be a very... fixed self-orientation, a certain kind of fragility around being challenged, a real lack of empathy or an ability to get into other people's shoes, and then a lot of secondary and tertiary behaviors that really reinforce that around control, manipulation, using financial or emotional leverage, or other things such as triangulation in which the use of other people is leveraged to create outcomes that that individual wants that are most serving to themselves and that fragile in our world.
Speaker #1
That makes sense. I once heard this joke. Well, if I say it, I feel like at this moment, it wouldn't be as funny, but basically saying, can you imagine the narcissist in their therapy sessions being validated by their therapists? Because, you know, I go through therapy sessions. And for a very long period of time, I guess like my struggle was. I am appeasing everyone. So like the whole journey was to be like, this is about you, right? This is like, you need to take care of yourself. But I can only imagine the people who already take care of themselves, maybe to a certain unhealthy way, now being validated those sessions. So my follow-up question is, where do we draw the line? You know, like how much of... self-serving, self-caring, self-attention is a healthy amount and how much is like borderline, you know, they could have some narcissist traits.
Speaker #0
Absolutely. I'm so glad that you bring up the narcissist in therapy because this is such a big... thing that goes around. People talk about this. And just in my experience and that of what's reported by my peers, for the first few sessions, you know, it's really easy for a therapist to kind of be positioned. And the whole point of the beginning of therapy is to build a relationship, right? So there's not a lot of challenging before there's an alliance between the therapist and the client. However, what is typically reported and that I've observed is that this works for about four to eight sessions. But around session eight, once you get to the middle work of therapy, any kind of challenging, which is a really normal part of therapy, will just cause a collapse and then a severing with this narcissist. And so typically, but not always, what is true is that that statement is a fact for a little while. And as soon as that questioning comes up, the narcissist will abandon the therapeutic relationship.
Speaker #1
OK, say more.
Speaker #0
So this is something that, you know, I think that people have a fear that the therapist doesn't notice. And for some people, maybe on that spectrum of narcissistic behaviors, right, maybe the narcissistic behaviors are a result of genuine trauma and wounding. And the person really does need a lot poured into them. OK, that's going to be a really different experience than with someone who just will truly collapse with challenge. And that can be felt as really different internally. And so working with people who are more narcissistic, you know, the ability to self-reflect. on the way that their behaviors are and that impact and to have that level of insight is really, really hindered. And so that's something that can really make it much easier. That said, sometimes a really self-oriented individual is in therapy because they have a lot of attachment trauma. They have a lot of developmental trauma and do need a lot of support, right? This is not to say even a narcissist shouldn't have self-compassion, right? Because there are people who are really narcissistic who do improve. and do grow and are able to have a little bit more solidity on the inside and be able to sit with a little bit more accountability. And so in a way, we want to leave open the ability to hold compassion that even someone who's really fixed can change. However, when it gets to a point of a personality disorder, well, then it can be a lot harder to know, is this really serving this individual? This is also why it's really hard in couples counseling to continue if one person is really strongly narcissistic. Because in order to keep the alliance going with that one person, the couples counselor is then invited to actually participate in the abuse of the other partner. And so in those cases, you actually couldn't even give couples counseling because it would be what we would consider contraindicated.
Speaker #1
Right. Okay. So is, first of all, is narcissism... Like, is this genetic or is this something like the environment gradually shipped them into a certain way? Is this nature or nurture?
Speaker #0
Yeah, you know, I think that there can be a lot of both. But the way that I really frame this is that I work a lot within both people recovering from the individual narcissist who have had probably more likely a romantic relationship that's been really harmful and left a mark. But I also connect to narcissistic symptoms. So. What is a narcissistic family system? Rather than having a family that's based off of connection and love and community, this is a family that is really related over power and privilege and position. And so in this family, let's say that there's a narcissistic parent and multiple children. One child will typically fulfill the role of the golden child, taking on the most qualities of that narcissistic parent because they're so praised. They're really reaffirmed. And within that system, they're really held up. They're given a lot of benefit and a lot of privilege where other children may be holding more projections like the scapegoat child. And so that child that's really been conditioned and rewarded for being narcissistically oriented will then go out into the world and behave that way. And it creates a cycle.
Speaker #1
Wow. I'm trying to apply this to my own life right now. And I'm just thinking, And I'm not saying that. I could potentially be narcissistic. But like, I recently had a situation where I felt like I was dealing with a narcissist. You know this, I share a little bit with you. And I've been seeing my therapist for three years. And I actually, multiple times where I wondered if I want to take a pause, but I didn't. Until recently, when I repeated back what happened to me. to my therapist and my therapist pretty much didn't really listen to my side of story. So I feel like my therapist wasn't on my side. So now I'm seriously considering pausing this relationship with her. because I've been thinking about it. And now that you were saying that, like, if the person being challenged in the therapy session could potentially end the relationship with their therapist, I'm trying to think, like, do I have narcissist-like symptoms? But we've been seeing each other for three years. So I feel like I'm okay. What are other symptoms? Maybe I have to self-diagnose a little bit.
Speaker #0
You know, let me tell you that you are wondering that, that you're thinking about that. is my immediate gut reaction is probably not. Because this is not really a thought that narcissistic people tend to have. The thought that they're having is, I'm so misunderstood. I'm the victim. Nobody gets me here. And so usually, and this can actually really be a common experience for those who have experienced narcissistic abuse is wondering, well, is it me, right? Because there's this amount of gaslighting and this moving away from the inner anchor of self-knowledge. then has people seeing through this other perspective. And so I don't know the exact situation that happened, but I will say that you're wondering this makes me think you're probably doing all right. Now that's not diagnostic, but that is a typically not a question that narcissistic individuals are asking themselves.
Speaker #1
I see. Okay. Then let's talk about, am I attracted to narcissists? I feel like when I'm looking for somebody in a romantic setting, I feel like I'm looking for someone. powerful. But then like, not like, you know, like there are people who they pretend to be powerful, but then you look at them and you're like, oh, I feel like there's a lot of insecurity behind it. But like when I'm looking for something, I'm looking for someone who's fundamentally self-aware, you know, they're like sure of themselves. So what are some of the things I need to be careful for? Because I can see myself easily data narcissist and not even knowing that I am in a narcissistic relationship because I'm so drawn to their powerful presence, right? They know what they want. They go after what they want. They don't let anything stop them. To a certain degree, it's a lot of good qualities that the society is selling us, right? Especially in business and career. So how can I be careful of not dating a narcissist?
Speaker #0
I mean, it's such an important question. You know, one aspect of a successful narcissist is that they've got charisma. In order to get away with abuse or keeping someone on hand to exploit in some way, you have to be good enough at it that people will stay. If you just come out the gate and you are a monster, no one's going to get hooked. And so something that I often will, two things really come to mind. One is make sure that what is said matches what is real. I think that part of what's so confusing for people is listening to a story, listening to an apology. And that's one thing that's happening up here. But the second track is what's actually happening in manifest reality, the actual behaviors. And so when there's a really big gap between those two things, that is something to keep an eye out for. Do they say that, oh, they're all business and have these powerful meetings, this and that, but really doesn't seem like their calendar is so booked. It doesn't seem like. This is as much action as talk. Now, that's something to watch for because of the grandiosity, right? It's really hard at first to see the difference between what is charisma that is empty and what is confidence. That's often why narcissistic people can sort of slide through for so well for so long. So that's one piece. Something I often tell people that work with me if narcissists are their type, you know what I say is like, make sure the relationship feels good, but not too good. Right. Just like any other fix. You know, it's like, wow. You know, it begins with more of a love bombing with them doing a lot of mirroring, with them really saying and doing a lot of the things to really try and get you hooked in. And so if your type is narcissist, it's going to feel really good. And it's sort of like a high that's too good. You know, you want something you want green tea, you know, no caffeine crash at the end. If you have a lot of espresso, it's going to feel great going up and it's going to feel real crummy coming down.
Speaker #1
I'm stressed even just talking about espresso right now.
Speaker #0
Right. See, so you're familiar right home. My heart's beating. It's so perfect. It's too good to be true. They love everything I love. It's watch out if it feels like it hurts, but watch out if it feels too good.
Speaker #1
What I think what I'm hearing from you is that they know what they're doing, meaning when they go into a relationship, they're fully aware of the tactic or strategy they're applying in this relationship. So, first of all, is that true?
Speaker #0
Certainly for people who have more of a narcissistic personality disorder or are more of a malignant narcissist, there is knowledge and plan. That's part of what is so hurtful is this thoughtfulness around how can I most hook you? How can I most hurt you? And for some of the other types, it may not be quite as. conscious, although it is clearly a strategy that's being used, it's not quite so pointed.
Speaker #1
I see. So, and I know there's different levels. Is this something that once you become aware, if a person who think that they need to change, they're capable of improving and move towards the other direction? Meaning like they put a stop to it and they be aware of their actions and then they're like I want to no longer do this or be this type of person.
Speaker #0
Yeah, it's definitely harder the more fixed or sort of more pathological, so to speak, that it is. It is not typical because of that piece of the inner challenging being so difficult. There's not typically an interest in recovery. However, some people are doing specifically like expanded states research to see if things like MDMA can support narcissist. for breaking down some of that resistance. That said, it tends to be slow work and it takes a long time, which is part of why some of these experimental treatments are being looked at. And maybe you've heard that old saying, most of the people who are in therapy are there because of someone who won't go to therapy. And so typically I'm working with the folks who are there because any kind of relational process with the person that's hurting them is really no longer possible.
Speaker #1
You know, this is kind of circling back to my initial question. I feel like after four years, three, almost four years in therapy with multiple therapists, right? I feel like I don't want to do therapy anymore. Like, I feel like I want to do maintenance work, but I just feel like everyone's fine. I mean, like everyone seemed like they're living a great life. I'm over here suffering and I'm over here thinking that I'm at fault. So I feel like maybe I'm switching the table here and just be like, Other people can go to therapy. I'm fine. Is that narcissistic?
Speaker #0
No. I mean, first of all, there's something to be said for healthy breaks. It is clinically appropriate to take breaks from therapy. It's really intense and deep work. Also, I actually see it as developmentally appropriate. Now, of course, I'm not your therapist. I don't know the exact case. It can be really an important and normative step to start giving things back to people, which is the idea of once that part of the process goes from, well, I'm crazy, I'm wrong, I don't know what's happening. I'm being so hurtful by having boundaries. They don't use that word because that's not what's cognitively held, but start to give it back. Well, actually, you hurt me. That's a you problem. That's on your side of the street, a very important part of the recovery process. And so, you know, and heck, it's important to get mad if we just don't feel our anger. That is going to turn into sickness in the body. It's going to block us from other emotions. And it's going to prevent us from being right in right relationship with our own internal world.
Speaker #1
Right. So hypothetically, if I were to be dating a narcissist right now and I want to leave, what are some of the strategy that you can share with me so I can leave safely? Because I would believe that if I were to be with this person in the beginning, something draw me to it. Right. So like, how do I. built this like awareness and also try to stop myself from going back as well as leave safely and make sure the narcissist doesn't hurt me in the process?
Speaker #0
It's a really important question because there can be some serious safety considerations, you know, especially with a more fixed narcissist. There can be a real increase of danger around abuse stalking, you know, when it comes to just any relationship where there's abuse. the likelihood of harm really increases once the relationship ends because there is a really big drive for retaliation in a lot of cases. And so on one hand, if you're experiencing full-on abuse, you know, something as important as a safety plan around, well, where can you go? How can you move around your regular routines? Are there places you can go where this person doesn't know, can't reach you, can't find you? Because if they know your daily routine, all of a sudden they may start just popping up in it. In terms of you know, outside just the safety planning for abuse, there's a lot of internal readiness. So one is to start to recognize that the greatness of the narcissist is actually a projection of our own wish and potential. And so to take some of that back and then to also do a really honest internal inventory around our own codependence. Because if we have codependent parts, then when someone hurts us, the instinct will be to lean in, to move towards, to fix. And unless we can be aware that we are having that urge to lean in when people hurt us, it's going to be very hard to see, well, why am I even still here? Right. Can feel really powerless. Like I can't help myself. I can't leave. And so to name where we have those habits is a really important part of understanding how we remain stuck. And then, of course, one of the biggest things is to take a leap of faith. Because I believe for everyone who's in this narcissistic dynamic, inside their inner healer, that authentic self is still whispering, no matter how quiet, something is not right here. This does not feel good. This is not how it's supposed to be. This can be better. And the leap of faith is to go against all of our own codependence, all of the potential that we see, all of the sunk costs of the relationship, and to believe our interior world that's saying, this can be better. And to take that leap, despite so many different protectors and parts of the self saying, don't do this. This isn't real. I'm so bad or wrong for leaving them, especially if it's someone who's more covert. Oh, I'm just so sick. I need you in my life. I'm just so beaten down. You need to be here, right? It can build this story. I'm so selfish to leave. But to trust that inner knowing, this is not what is meant for me.
Speaker #1
Earlier you said, when it hurts, we tend to Lean in, right? Lean into it. Why is that? Like, is there like a biology component to it? Or is that because we think we can rewrite history, we can do it better next time to repeat a pattern? I'm just curious, do you know, like, why people want it to get hurt?
Speaker #0
Yeah, well, you know, I think there are a lot of reasons for that. And I do think that it is basically biopsychological in that a lot of the time, if we take it back to the family, right? How did my nervous system learn that this was normal? How did I learn that when something hurts, I lean in, not run away, right? Because that seems very antithetical to survival. And for the young child, connection socially is the same as food, water, and shelter in terms of survival needs. And so a child in a narcissistic family dynamic will render themselves insane, essentially, rather than to acknowledge the person I am. dependent on for my survival, does not have my best interests at heart, and are at sometimes very overtly harmful. A child's brain just cannot do that. And so it short circuits basically and says, well, I'm crazy and bad and broken. I have this flaw. And that helps them survive and stay there. It's very adaptive. It's very brilliant. There's nothing wrong that that happens. It is a effective survival strategy. Then we grow up and we go out into the world and our internal wiring is around Well, if something hurts, well, I'm wrong. Well, I need to stay connected. And so there are all these unconscious beliefs that have already taken root around, well, I need to be there to serve the other or my internal world. It doesn't matter. It's not important. I'm just wrong. And it goes out and it perpetuates. Now, unconsciously, there is the hope, well, this time it will be different. This time I can change them. This time I'll find out that I'm good. And it continues this pattern over and over. And that tends to make people more likely to end up in this similar situation because to their nervous system, that kind of chaos and scarcity and insecurity, it's like, it feels right like home.
Speaker #1
Right. I can still relate to that. I'm seriously concerned about my dating life now because I definitely, I like to fix whoever I'm dating. There's some glory to it. And I know that it is from my childhood. And I think that to a certain degree, I'm still fixing. relationship with my families, you know, and the people around me. And I think that I can totally see why people would jump into another one because it's like the same thing. Like I relax by watching scary movies. There's something about screaming just make me feel like, okay, this is what my nervous system is pretty used to. Um, but we're changing. I guess I'm not going to cancel my therapy sessions. I need help. But, but, um, I guess my next question is, we talked about inner awareness, inner healing. What are some of the things that people can start to work on? And, you know, maybe leaving narcissistic relationship, it's too big of a jump right now. But what are some of the smaller steps they can take today to help them leave this type of relationship in the long run?
Speaker #0
Yeah. Absolutely. You know, so important. Such a great question because we really have to start where we are and to leave maybe a few steps down the road. And so an aspect of what narcissistic abuse does for us or to us is to really detach us from our inner knowing and degrade our inner anchor around how we perceive and know life. And that is what part of what makes manipulation that much more potent, right? It's like I've unhooked. from my inner knowing in that sense something is wrong. And so what we can do, and this is good for all sorts of people who have boundary challenges or otherwise have this kind of, I have a fatal flaw thinking, is to practice being in our interiority, which is to say, well, what do I like here? Start to know the self. What do I enjoy and can I follow that? Start to create a new feedback loop between the inner world and the outer world, which is, well, I feel like I want this thing or I feel this way. And then to behave in correspondence to that, to start to strengthen and rewire the connection to the inner anchor that will help build up our own self-containment in a way and will help us really cue into that inner voice. because that's a lot of what's been degraded. And then to see what wants to emerge from there, right? So like, oh, I kind of think I want to paint, but I don't know if it really matters or if it's going to be any good. Girl, you feel it, do it. See what it's like to just start being responsive to yourself and your inner world and to also notice your preferences. You know, I'll play this game with people sometimes. Can I try it with you?
Speaker #1
Yeah, totally. I love it.
Speaker #0
Okay. No matter what I ask of you, you're going to say yes, all right?
Speaker #1
Okay.
Speaker #0
Okay. Will you have me on your podcast?
Speaker #1
Yes.
Speaker #0
Would you like to go out for drinks this weekend?
Speaker #1
Yes.
Speaker #0
Would you like to have me over for your next family holiday?
Speaker #1
Yes.
Speaker #0
Would you write me a check for a thousand dollars?
Speaker #1
Yes.
Speaker #0
Can I come over to your place and have a party there?
Speaker #1
Yes.
Speaker #0
Now I'm guessing even though you said yes and all those things, a bunch of them felt different. Tell me about what your experience was.
Speaker #1
The first one, podcast, obviously. Right. And then second one, drinks. Absolutely. Anytime. I feel like it was the third one, the holiday party. Oh, sorry. No, the family party. I was like, oh, maybe. I actually thought about it. I was like, it seems super nice, super cool. It wouldn't hurt, right? I was like, maybe that could do. The fourth one was the $1,000. I was like, oh, I can buy a lot of skincare with that. So I don't know. And then the last one was like through a party at my place. Fuck no. There's no way. I love Queen. So you're not coming. See ya.
Speaker #0
That's right. That's right. Okay. And so you knew that you're describing how you knew cognitively, but tell me, did you notice if there's any difference in how the yeses hit in your body?
Speaker #1
Right. I feel like when we were asking the later three questions, when you were asking the later three questions, I feel like I couldn't answer. Like there's a stopper around my gut area. Like there's something coming up to kind of try to like. close my throat to not say yes to you.
Speaker #0
Exactly, right? And these are really subtle cues that our body is giving. The knowledge was there, right? There's a correlated somatic experience. And so typically what will start to happen and is all too encouraged in many different relationships is to start to ignore and dismiss those things or become so disconnected from them we don't even understand what our body is trying to tell us. And so a lot of this work is about that inner responsiveness. And trying to really create an inner key. Well, what are the yeses that I feel like the energy can flow with me? And what are the yeses where actually it does feel like something wants to close my throat? And so following those and starting to, you know, it's a two-part process. I need to hear my inner voice and I need to trust it enough to listen. And so any practices that align us with that and the responses from our body are going to be great ways to build skills while you're still in that pre-contemplation phase of is this relationship me?
Speaker #1
Let's talk about follow your body and your intuition. I think that this goes back to the age old, you know, question. Do people really don't know what's good for them? And the answer is 90% of the time, we do know what's good for us. For example, eat your vegetables, right? Don't drink as much soda. As much as we have the knowledge and we know sometimes we will get sick, I feel like there's still like some sort of addiction to it.
Speaker #0
Because your body is in this loop, feedback loop for so long, your biochemistry has changed to a certain degree. Now it's almost like as much as your body is telling you no, you're bypassing it. You're overcoming the signal. You're trying to go back to who you are. And I know that you mentioned to pay more attention about what you like, what you don't like. Then my question to you is, when we add a crossroad and we know. the right choice, the wrong choice, but our body is so conditioned and addicted to certain lifestyle. How do we find the courage to stop ourselves from heading down the same road once again?
Speaker #1
Sure. Oh my gosh, it's so important. You know, I invite working, there are a lot of answers to this, and so I'll share what it's like when you work with me. One is about creating a shift from the mindset of I keep doing. this keeps happening to me to I keep doing this, which is to say from, oh, well, I don't know what's good for me. I hurt myself. But rather to this lens of I'm an adaptive human. There is a reason why I have this compulsive behavior. And so a big aspect when those moments come around, because the compulsive moment, it can be so strong, so immersive, it feels so hard to say no to. And so increasing insight around, well, what's the paired emotion that's trying to be you pushed away, separated, moved away from, snuffed out through this compulsive behavior. Because often the compulsion will help for a little bit, but it's not curative or transformative. It will just create satisfaction in a moment to the compulsion, but the underlying issue of I'm overwhelmed, I have so much shame, whatever that experience is that's coming up, it's still going to be rumbling down below. And so to gain a sense of, oh, well, when I feel like I want to overeat, or I want to use a substance or anything that's composed of skin pick, right? It's like, well, gaining a deeper insight for what's arising for me. And then if you're working with me, the way that I might do that is who's the part that's underneath the compulsion? What's that feeling? And then building this kind of inner connection to that part to say, how can I work with that part directly rather than through this adaptation? If I want to eat because I want to push away feelings of shame, well, how can I build a relationship to the part of me that feels shame And and work with it to then slip in some compassion or even harm reduction. Okay, I don't want to have my regular compulsion, but something needs to happen here, especially at the beginning of this process. What can I do that is safer? What can I do that reduces the impact of this compulsion and lets me get through this moment? And so some of those pieces, and when we do that and have a sense for who is underneath the compulsion and have compassion for them. then it's easier to keep a promise to ourself or to make a choice, right? It's a lot easier to say, well, I'm harming myself, me, an adult, than to say, oh, well, there's eight-year-old me who felt totally unheard, who needed to have a behavior in order to deal with the overwhelm of the emotions and to actually think, well, okay, well, actually, I'm working with her. I'm working with this eight-year-old, and what does she need? She need me to move my body? She need me to have a temper tantrum in my bed, punch a pillow or push on a wall or just... stay with it. And then it becomes a lot easier to make better choices or safer choices and know that we're just not always going to get it right. But that when we keep promises to ourself, our inner world is watching and it matters. And that's how we create a repair to the self-relationship and show I am the one I am waiting for. I do not need this behavior to make me feel better. I don't need to externalize to find a parent type who's going to make me feel better. I am the one I have been waiting for. And to really feel the confidence that that brings of I have the capacity to take care of myself and do the most loving thing in any moment for myself.
Speaker #0
I love that. What I'm also hearing you're saying, and this is something that I'm currently working on, is recognize the fact that I have a choice. You know, I can make my own decision and understanding, you know, where were some of the old pattern truly came from and say, I can work with that part of me. you understand that I am choosing to go down certain path versus if I feel like before I was just so overwhelmed from my past and my emotions and my feelings and I don't even know where to begin. Yeah,
Speaker #1
absolutely. Right. It's sort of that process of going for insight. Why is this happening? Why am I doing this? And then behavioral. Well, can I take a little step or can I draw boundaries sooner or can I let go of their response to my boundary a little bit? faster. And we conceptualize ourself as having this inner healing intelligence, this idea that a part of us naturally wants to move towards wholeness. Then we have something to lean on. We have a resource inside, which is to say my adaptations may not have always been the best, but I'm here and I'm alive and I'm better than I would have been anyway. And to build a relationship with that part of us trusting, we naturally want to move towards health given the opportunity.
Speaker #0
Right. So how does a person walking out of narcissistic relationship to. rebuild their identity and trust themselves again.
Speaker #1
Yeah. You know, there's so much about just organizing what's happened. There's so much around confusion and am I the hurtful one, right? So much of the manipulation is you're hurting me, not the other way around. You know, there's some really classic moves. There's DARVO, which is defend, attack, reverse victim and offender. And this is a strategy that narcissists will do to shift blame when they're being hurtful to the other person.
Speaker #0
I had a very recent experience where I was guest-lit and basically everything that this person said to me were reframed as I heard it wrong and they didn't say it. I made it too personal. I became angry on false information. I was defensive because they felt like they couldn't even have a conversation with me because I was being unreasonable, even though, you know. I got to that point because untrue things were said and manipulated. So I feel like I can relate to that. I mean, I never had that experience until this is what it's meant to be. The universe works its way around. Just let me truly have a personal closeness to it.
Speaker #1
Absolutely. Now, if I was going to project on your experience, I'd say, you know, if that happened to me, I would feel really confused. I would start to feel dissociated. I would have all this deep questioning of myself and what I knew. And it would be so disorienting.
Speaker #0
Mm hmm. I'm still angry. Listen, first of all, we still don't know if this is a person narcissistic because now this person is not here to defend themselves. But I would also argue there's a certain part of me make me so. anger is because I allowed this person for the longest time. I didn't want to see them for who they truly are. I gave them the benefit of the doubt. I let them to take advantage of me. I allowed the time to go, like all the incidents to go on to the point that I'm just like, okay, I think that you're way out of line. You crossed all the boundaries and I have to put a foot down. Right. And I think that's like the reason why I'm still recovering. Like I'm not even I you know, this person is irrelevant. But for some reason, it cuts so deep.
Speaker #1
It does. I mean, the attack in a way is so personal, right? It's against this relationship, self-trust, our relationship and orientation to reality and any hope of a shared reality. And so the place where it hurts us is really deep. And it's in this like... intimate self-relationship, our relationship to life. And so it can leave a huge impact, even if it's not someone that we were ultimately close with for a long time or had a lot of work with. And so that degree of like, I am this mad, I am this mad about this immediate red flag, you know, like,
Speaker #0
yeah,
Speaker #1
wow, this has really gotten me outside of myself. And it just can be really, you know, like you said, like, makes you question yourself sort of based in reality, right? And so this work with the self-blame around, well, and I let that happen and this and that. It's like, well, this is their goal. This is the skill, right? Like it's hard to beat someone at their own game. And especially if you're coming as like an open-hearted person trying to have a relationship and you're walking into a game that you don't know about.
Speaker #0
Right.
Speaker #1
It's really tough to walk away from that unscathed.
Speaker #0
Like help me to process this because I'm not going to lie. I'm so angry. And there are moments where I'm just like. There are a million things I want to say to this person, to which, by the way, I had a very serious conversation with this person. I laid out everything this person has said to me that's incorrect. I share with them the trust has been broken. I do not trust you anymore. And it may be in the near future we can rebuild this, but I highly doubt it. And I pretty much shared how I feel and why I feel certain ways. But I'm still so angry. Like, can you help me to like just move on? And the thing is about me, one more thing, is that I don't even get angry like this. Like this is me every three years. Like somebody really just crossed the line and I'm like, I can't even let this go.
Speaker #1
Yeah, absolutely. Well, you know, I think. Such a big part of this is you don't need their permission for what you're saying to be true. And what you just mentioned is, well, the inner me, the little child did not have a voice that mattered. And so what I would invite is this question of, well, how can it matter enough to you? You don't need them to agree for it to be real. You need to stand by yourself for it to be real. Right. Part of especially when it's a more intense narcissistic situation. You can lay it all out like a legal briefing. You can make it the most logical receipts for days. Listen, I've written. You cannot believe the emails I have written. It doesn't matter because it doesn't fit into their worldview. And so to be able to look at that, that outline and say, this is enough for me. This is real for me. To journal and ask yourself the question, what would it be like if I assumed that this was all a true experience? right, to enter that world where it was already just absolutely factual. and grounded and rather than I need you to see this, right? That's part of the codependent. I mean, there's justice needs in there as well, but also some of the codependence, which is I need you to approve of this boundary. I need you to see it. And working against codependency says it's enough that I see this. I'm allowed to be my independent person and to self-validate. This is the reality of what I experienced. And then if you're working with me, we would do the inner child work or I would have you if you were into it. close your eyes and imagine this young part and to say to it directly, I believe you. I know that this was true. I want to hear your voice. And then to leave space and let that interior part speak back to you and just to listen. And it sounds sometimes to people, I think like, yeah, what difference is that going to make? It makes a tremendous difference in terms of shifting that. And so, you know, there's a version in which we could do a small experiment with that. But that kind of interior parts work is what I would recommend to close the loop on that validation. And rather than externalize it, I need you to see how dirty you did me to just say inside, I know that that was not right. And that is for sure how it was because I trust my feeling and my experience. And thus become a good and loving parent to that inner child while also solidifying your own reality for what you know it is.
Speaker #0
Love it. Even though I didn't close my eyes because my current therapist. have me do similar work where we go back to the childhood. So like when you were talking, I kind of just had this image of in my head where like, you know, having this kid kind of like being validated by himself. And I think that that kind of just triggered a lot of the times when I was a child that I needed the grown-up to validate me, but they didn't, right? So I constantly trying to have them see me and see like why they were in Iran. So I feel like my entire life is about what's about being seen, right? And I feel like this is one of the situations where you're right. Like, I don't need your approval. I don't need your validation. I know what I saw. I know what I heard. You know, I'm a Libra. I'm very fair. All that. But this is super, super helpful. And I know that, you know, you work with clients. If people want to find you, how can they best find you?
Speaker #1
Yeah, absolutely. People can reach out to me through my website, which is taylorstherapyservices.com. That's Taylor with an S. And on there, you can find, of course, my therapy services. But then I also provide breath work. I have a way that people can work with me in expanded states and otherwise some different coaching options. So everything can be found there. And yeah, if I resonate with you, please reach out. We can do some work.
Speaker #0
I love it. Thank you, Taylor, so much. This is super helpful. I feel... healed a little bit. I definitely feel like I can now process my journey in a different way. So thank you so, so much.
Speaker #1
It's my pleasure.
Speaker #0
Thanks so much for having me. And if somebody came to mind while you're listening, please do make sure to send this episode to them. You can also find me on TikTok, Instagram, YouTube, Apple Podcasts, and Spotify. All linked below. Until next time, stay sharp, stay intentional, and be good.

About The Zhen Podcast

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

About The Zhen Podcast

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

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