Emotional Outsourcing: How Childhood Survival Patterns Blocks Creativity & How to Heal w/ Beatriz Victoria Albina | Unleash Your Inner Creative with Lauren LoGrasso (A Creativity Podcast)

Description

What if the way you learned to love, connect, and succeed wasn’t actually you, but survival strategies you picked up as a kid?

In this episode of Unleash Your Inner Creative, I sit down with Beá Victoria Albina, somatic experiencing practitioner and author of Emotional Outsourcing, to explore how people pleasing, perfectionism, and emotional over-responsibility quietly block creativity, self-trust, and authentic expression.

We talk about what emotional outsourcing really is, how it develops in childhood, and how it shows up in our relationships, work, decision-making, and creative lives. We also explore how healing your nervous system and attachment wounds can help you reconnect with your voice and come home to yourself.

This conversation is especially vulnerable for me. Bea even guides me through a live somatic practice to help release shame, and as you listen, I hope you can do the same.

In this episode, you’ll learn:

-What emotional outsourcing is and why it develops
-How people pleasing and perfectionism disconnect you from creativity
-Why shame keeps you stuck and how to work with it
-Somatic tools to rebuild self-trust and self-expression

If you’ve ever abandoned yourself in order to be “good,” “enough,” or lovable, this episode will help you return to a more empowered, creative version of yourself.

🎙️ Connect & Work with Me:
If you love this episode and want personalized support to break through creative blocks, build confidence, and finally share your work with the world, I’d love to help. As a creative coach, I work with artists, entrepreneurs, and multi-passionate creatives to unleash their inner voice and build a thriving creative life from a place of self-love. ✨ Want to work together? Email me at Lauren.LoGrasso@gmail.com or visit https://www.laurenlograsso.com/contact/ to book a free 15-minute discovery call.

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Transcription

Speaker #0
What if the way you learned to love, connect, and succeed wasn't actually your way, but rather survival strategies you picked up as a kid? And what if those same survival strategies are the very thing blocking your creativity, your intuition, and your ability to trust yourself? If you've ever swallowed your feelings, softened your needs, or shapeshifted to fit in, you are not alone. Today is about coming back home to yourself. Because when you remember who you were before the world told you who to be, your creativity and power naturally rise. Welcome to Unleash Your Inner Creative with Lauren LaGrasso. I'm Lauren LaGrasso. I'm a Webby Award-winning podcast host and producer, singer-songwriter, public speaker, and creative coach. And this show is meant to give you tools to love, trust, and know yourself enough to claim your birthright to creativity and pursue your wildest dreams. Today's guest is Beatrice Victoria Albina, aka Bea. She is a somatic experiencing practitioner, master certified somatic life coach, nurse practitioner, and host of the Feminist Wellness Podcast, which I will actually be on soon, or maybe I already have been. I don't know when it's coming out, but make sure you subscribe to it so you don't miss that episode. She also is the author of the amazing book, End Emotional Outsourcing, which I highly recommend and have been loving. Bea helps people, especially people socialized as women, to break free from emotional outsourcing, regulate their nervous systems, and reclaim their joy. And on today's show, she will help you do just that. Honestly, this is one of the most vulnerable episodes I've done in a while. She even walked me through a technique to help me heal my shame and understand what it wanted for me. It made me feel so much lighter. And as I go through it, you can go through it too and do the same for yourself, I'm telling you, it's revolutionary. It helped me so much and I know it will help you too. From this conversation, you'll learn what emotional outsourcing is and why it shows up, how childhood patterns shape your creativity and relationships, how to stop taking responsibility for everybody else's emotions, somatic tools to help you unwind people-pleasing and perfectionism, and why healing your attachment wounds opens the door to your true voice. If you've... ever abandon yourself to achieve what you see as goodness or enoughness, this episode will help you return to your most empowered, creative version of yourself. Okay, now here she is, Beatrice Victoria Albina. I am so excited that you're here. I adore your work. I love how accessible it is. And it makes me feel very seen. So just thank you for the work you do and for who you are in the world.
Speaker #1
Oh, thank you so much. I continue to be extremely humbled when I hear things like that, like in a really good way. You know what I mean? And so thank you. It's wild that I just like sit here and I think things and then I say them into the world and they get to other people's ears. Do you ever have that moment where you're like, whoa, wait a second?
Speaker #0
Yeah. Yeah. It's one of the cool parts of the timeline we live in that we can connect with people like that and share our thoughts. And if we're brave enough to do it, like have an impact. That's so cool.
Speaker #1
It is pretty cool.
Speaker #0
So I want to talk about your journey because I say a lot of the times our creative purpose is. the midpoint between our greatest joy and our greatest suffering. And it seems like that could be true when it comes to your work. So I wonder if you might walk my creative cuties through how your journey led you to teach on emotional outsourcing, healing and wellness through the lens of feminism.
Speaker #1
Yeah, for sure. Um, also, I love that you call your babies, your cuties.
Speaker #0
I know. I love all of your little terms of endearment. I was like, Oh my gosh, I am like, What did you call me? Like preface? Tender ravioli. Tender ravioli. Yes. I am a tender ravioli. I'm Italian. So that felt very fitting. It's good for my soul.
Speaker #1
Paisan, it's good for your spirit to remember that you have a soft, cheesy center. It's important. Like for realsies.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
Which of course is a perfect segue to why I coined the term emotional outsourcing. Listen, I had all of the habits that are emotional outsourcing, codependent, perfectionist, people-pleasing habit. Would I have called myself any of those things? Can I say bafangulo on this show?
Speaker #0
Oh, for sure.
Speaker #1
In which case, me bafangulo. You know what I'm saying? Because, and for people who don't know, we're cussing in Italian. Listen. It's real. Forget about it. Co-dependent? I'm a modern, independent feminist woman. I don't need a codependent. Get out of here. Unless, I'm sorry, Lauren, is that okay with you? Are you mad at me? Do you still love me? Am I okay? Is it okay? Do you want me to leave? Should we cancel the interview? I'm sorry. Did that piss you off? Oh God, I'm so sorry. I always mess everything up. Right, right. And perfectionism? Excuse me, once again, I'm so far from perfect. Like this one time I got like an 89 on an exam. So.
Speaker #0
God forbid.
Speaker #1
Well, but that's just more evidence that I'm not a perfectionist. So get out of here. And then people pleasing. Do you know, Lauren, how many people are currently displeased with me? At least three, which means not a people pleaser. And I'm being hilarious, but like I'm being a silly goose. But to say I was doing all the things, but none of the terms worked for me. None of the terms encapsulate what I was experiencing. They felt loaded with all this history and all this criticism and this talk of like. defective character, that there was something wrong with me for behaving the way I was behaving. And I wasn't buying it. And so I wanted to come up with another way to talk about how we experience life when we grow up in families where emotions are repressed or where parents are emotionally immature or where folks just don't have the skills to attend and attune to kids the way they need. Even when there's food on the table and a roof over your head and karate classes and ballet and YMCA summer camp and like all the trappings. But your nervous system is not landing solidly in, I am okay being my authentic self. And because we're not fools and because I wasn't a fool, we adopt these habits. But we can't get help for them. We can't come out the other side. And they will continue to impact our creative life, our work life, our relationships, our everything when we can't see ourselves in the definition. So we can't get help that gets us out of it. You know what I'm saying?
Speaker #0
Oh, yeah, I know. I relate to like every word you say. Well, maybe before we go further, can we define what is emotional outsourcing for those that don't know?
Speaker #1
Yeah, I thought you'd never ask. So, um, Emotional outsourcing is my term for our codependent perfectionist and people-pleasing habits. It's an umbrella term that encapsulates them to give us a new entryway. And it's when we chronically and habitually source our sense of the three vital human needs, safety, belonging, and worth from everyone and everything outside of ourselves instead of from within at a great cost to self.
Speaker #0
Tracking, tracking.
Speaker #1
Listen, listen.
Speaker #0
I did have a question about this because growing up Italian, I think that all these things we talk about, like when I first learned about codependency, I'm like, what do you mean? That's just called being alive. Wednesday. Yeah. And I think, you know, I at least notice it in my own culture that this is like a thing that happens, like the enmeshment, the, you know, relying on each other, but to a point where it's probably a little bit unhealthy. And do you find that like certain cultures have this more at the forefront or like it's like normalized in certain cultures more or is it kind of across the board?
Speaker #1
I think it's it's a pan human experience and I think it shows up really differently.
Speaker #0
Yeah,
Speaker #1
because what you're expressing through your Italian lineage is that enmeshed all up in each other's business. The emotions are hot and huge and big and screaming. And like, similarly, I'm Argentine, a lot of that. Someone maybe was like, grew up in like a very waspy environment where there were no feelings, no, no conflict. Everything's fine. Stiff upper lip. Right. Like, just like push it away. It doesn't exist. Suck it up, buttercup. Like that kind of framework. And then at the end of the day, what's the lived experience? How does it show up? in the same emotional outsourcing, right? So it could be a collectivist Asian culture, and I'm making broad swaths generalizations here because that's what we're doing, right? Or an equally enmeshed Latin American culture, right, can lead to us relating to ourself and each other in very similar ways.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
Because if the feelings are huge and screamed at you, there's no room for you to have feelings. And if there's no feelings allowed in the house, there's no room for you to have feelings. So who are you without your emotional experience of self?
Speaker #0
So, okay, because I'm relating to this because I think my husband had a more similar experience to the shut it down, push it down, doesn't exist. And I had more like every feeling is on the table and I'm going to be the one to deal with them and like help counsel my parents. So how might like these two different experiences manifest, but both in emotional outsourcing?
Speaker #1
Yeah, it comes down to authenticity, right? And it comes down to. Is it safe to be you? Do you feel belonging? Right. Humans are pack animals. Our autonomic nervous system is in this profound wiring to source safety from the collective. Right. I just think about it. At the end of the day, we are very small. And don't come at me if you're six foot seven. Compare yourself to a water buffalo or a rhino. Yeah.
Speaker #0
You don't even need to get next to one of those guys.
Speaker #1
Listen, and then you can talk to me. But like, we're small. And so we need each other, right? We need to have each other's backs literally as well as figuratively. And so do we feel belonging in the pack when we are self? Do we feel safe? Do we feel worthy of the love and care of the pack when we are self? Or do we need to step into a false self? So in the repressive environment, when you're super friggin PO'd at your parent, at your sibling, at your cousin, at your whatever. No, that's fine. Thanks. No, it's okay. It's, you know, I had said to please never do that, but you did it. So, yeah, it's fine. Where's self? Where's safety and belonging and worth? It's all leaning on not rocking the apple cart, not upsetting anyone, keeping things appearing copacetic. And same too when we're in that big, the opposite side of that, of the like, all the huge feelings, all the screaming, all the everything. We're so enmeshed in each other's emotional and physical experience that there's no room for you to actually have yours because you're so trained up to like, to manage everyone else, you know?
Speaker #0
Yeah. So, oh, sorry, go ahead.
Speaker #1
No, I mean, I feel like I could. write quite the treatise on this. Like I could go off. So,
Speaker #0
you know, and in the book, there is a great chapter on what is it called? Attachment theory and all the different like styles of like maybe like upbringing that you experienced that could have manifested in a childhood and an adulthood of emotional outsourcing, which people should totally read. But what are some of the symptoms? Like how does this end up manifesting in our adulthood?
Speaker #1
Yeah. All right. You ready? Here we go. So, yeah, feeling responsible for other people's emotions. So you can't relax if someone's upset. Like, did your did your mom ever, like, actually sit on the couch when the family was watching a movie?
Speaker #0
No,
Speaker #1
no. What was she doing? I know she was busy.
Speaker #0
She was working.
Speaker #1
Yeah, she was doing the thing and the thing and the thing and the thing. Oh, I'll be right there. I'll be right there. Enjoy the popcorn sandwiches. Somebody needs to send somebody a tea coffee. Let me just you know what? I'm going to get us a dog that I'm going to walk the dog that I'm going to bathe the dog. and that You know what I mean? Like sitting down? No, no, no. That's for other people. Other people should. You should sit. You should eat. You should rest. But us? No, no, no. The matriarch, the eldest daughter, any daughter, really? No, no, no. Up and at them. Especially if someone's upset. Especially. We have to fix it. There's like this compulsion because it's again, it's tied into safety, belonging and worth. Right. If someone's upset that I maybe am not safe in this pack, I better get all over that and make sure they're comfortable, make sure they're happy, make sure everything's copacetic. We apologize constantly, even when we didn't do anything wrong. We're not even Canadian. We're just trying to keep the peace. Right.
Speaker #0
Yeah. I grew up very close to Canada, so it was a double. Yeah. Right. And Detroit, I could see it from where I lived.
Speaker #1
Yeah. Right on. Yeah. The stories are contagious,
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
Got to watch out. Avoid conflict at all costs, even if it means fibbing. And I'm not going to say lying because we're not meaning to lie. But it's like, I'm fine. Don't worry about it. It's fine. Don't worry about it. I'm like profoundly, deeply disappointed. And my entire heart and soul feels like it's torn in two. But don't worry about it. It's totally fine that you forgot our anniversary for the 12th year in a row or whatever. We fib as well by downplaying our needs, stuffing down our feelings. We don't realize it's being dishonest, but it is a lack of honesty there. We feel resentful and we fall into one of two camps. Again, you and your mister, and I'm not saying you and your mister, but I'm just saying like y'all, either the not expressing it or constantly talking about how resentful you are. Well, with all I've done for you, you can't do this. With all I've suffered for you children, that kind of thing. Taking on the therapist role in every relationship. So romantic, friendship, stranger on the bus, at work, we're like the work mom. Oh, this one's. amazing. I actually have both a PhD and a divorce in this one, taking people on as a fixer-upper. God, was I good at that. Man.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
Because I could see the real potential. And even though they're like, I don't actually want to change in any of the 10 ways you want me to. I knew. I knew, Lauren. I would be the one they would change for.
Speaker #0
Yeah. definitely So my past, I mean, yeah, that was like my 20s. Yeah,
Speaker #1
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure, for sure, for sure. Oh my God, we cannot make a fricking decision to save our lives, right? We have to like ask the entire peanut gallery. And what it comes down to is not trusting ourself because again, we don't know self. Like that capital S self I talk about so much in the book, right? We're not in that self, we're in a false self. And so we're so scared to make a misstep. because we're scared of being kicked out of the pack, that setting a boundary, setting a limit, knowing our own limit, saying no, like the guilt is so overwhelming that we delay decisions until the decision's like just made by default, right? Like, oh, well, the deadline passed. I didn't join the class, you know? And we choose what's easier for others, even if it's inconvenient, it's uncomfortable, it's painful. And often it's because we have We so often grew up with parents or caregivers who were living in emotional outsourcing themselves. And so they had that kind of black and white thinking. And I talk about this in the book, Monkey See, Monkey Do, right? Mirror neurons in the brain teach us to do what our grownups are doing. I mean, it's pretty smart, right? Who else are we going to model ourselves after? And so if they lived in that all or nothing black and white, so we do too. And so we come to make a decision. There's a right and a wrong and we just don't have access to it. And so we're so profoundly scared that we'll pick the wrong and then everything will be destroyed and we'll be abandoned. I mean, coming back to the attachment wound stuff, we don't want to do it. Right. It's too like existentially frightening.
Speaker #0
Yeah. Is this like this is something I've kind of realized over the last year that I've been unwinding this this idea of like there's a right and a wrong and I just don't have access to it. I noticed that no matter what situation I was in, I would blame myself. Like even when there were a million other things at play, like take my career, you know, in when I was pursuing acting when I was younger, it was all my fault. It couldn't possibly have been that I was in a completely unfair industry with wild standards that usually has nothing to do with ability, often has to do with looks and like network connections and nepotism. them. For me, I was like, I have failed and it's all because of me. I just wasn't good enough. Now, maybe, and I didn't try hard enough. Maybe I could have tried a little harder. Like I can take responsibility where it was the case. But I think I gave up on that dream at that time, not because I failed. Because like, number one, I had rebranded disappointment as failure. And number two, I took all the blame and responsibility. instead of giving out everywhere where it was deserved. And is this a common practice of people who are engaging with emotional outsourcing?
Speaker #1
Yes, because if we cannot keep ourself safe, everyone around us is in charge of it because we're not competent enough to be in charge. So they have to be in charge because someone's got to be in charge. And so if we look at them and we say, it was my agent, It was my manager. It was like all these people's fault. they failed me, then again, it's that existential dread. Because if they're not protecting you, who is? No one is. And when the lions come, because it's not if for the human nervous system, when the lions come, who will protect me? And so this is why it's so often so hard for us to get mad at our parents or caregivers, right? And we jump right from... They did all these really painful things, but they were doing the best they could. And what we skip over is putting responsibility where it's due.
Speaker #0
Yeah. I want to talk with you about that because I shared that with my parents because they really were like the most loving people on earth and adore me, like never missed a performance. Even now, I just did a speaking engagement in Vegas. They flew out to see me. Like they're incredible people. And I know both of them, especially my mom, struggled with this. And I picked it up. And I also, you know, we've discussed it a lot, even on this podcast a couple times, but... I definitely acted as therapist to them. Like when I was seven, they went into couples counseling and I said to them, you don't need a counselor. I'll be your counselor. And like, I really thought I could do a better job than the counselor. And honestly, I probably could have. Let's be honest. Hindsight. Hindsight. But, you know, that responsibility shouldn't have been on me as a seven year old. But I struggle with holding, you know, how can I stay compassionate and loving and acknowledge Ciao. all the good my parents did and also see where I was missed or I was put in a position I shouldn't have been. And that's playing out now.
Speaker #1
It's interesting that you're bringing exactly this up because this has been the theme all week in my coaching group is exactly this, is how to hold this duality. And this is the core of acceptance, is accepting that people are complex and don't always do things in... what in hindsight is the most bestest way, and they can still be loving, kind, good people. And there can be a part of you, this is where we can bring internal family systems, Dick Schwartz's work in, there can be a part of you that is super PO'd, that's super angry at them. While your adult self, your whole integrated adult self can understand that This was modeled for them. And it was the model for your grandparents. And it was modeled for your great grandparents and for your great, great grandparents, right? That this is what was survival skills. But it's really important to let ourselves have the anger not to hold onto it, but so that it doesn't fester within, right? So that that emotion can move through the body and be transmuted as it were. can be processed through the body.
Speaker #0
So how do you do that?
Speaker #1
Yeah, I knew that was palmin. Listen, you got a couple, six months. But in all honesty, it is a very annoyingly slow process, right? Especially for those of us who are fast animals, it is a particularly annoying process because it's the process of getting back into your body. being present in your body, and then letting your body guide you to complete the actions, the movement. I'm going to say words and then I'm going to refine them and explain them. Don't worry. Nobody get nervous or get nervous if you want to. It's uncalled for. So there's movement and action potentials that arise in the body when there's a stressor. And if we're not able to complete that stress activation, then that remains in the body. Okay, what the hell did I just say? You're a gazelle. You're running across the Sahara. There's a lion chasing you. You're the slowest gazelle in the pack because you didn't eat your Wheaties this morning. And she catches, and it's the lioness that hunts. Let us just take a moment in celebration. So the lioness catches your stupid little ankle and you're like, damn it, here we go. and you collapse to the ground, and all that sympathetic activation, all that fight or flight, that adrenaline, that norepinephrine, that run, run, run, run, freaking literal lions that is in your body gets shut down as you collapse to the ground. And every gazelle cell in your body is smart enough to look real dead. But I mean, real dead, dorsal collapse in the nervous system. This is the shutdown state, which in humans looks like, wait, what? Sorry, we were just having a fight and I got overwhelmed and I like literally don't know what you were saying or what I was saying. I went dorsal. In a gazelle, it looks like heart rate slowing down, humans too, breathing slowing down, humans too, blood pressure dropping, humans too, getting flooded with opioids, endogenous opioids, humans too, because you're about to be lunch. So what happens to the gazelle? She's lying on the ground. The lion's like, oh, look, she's dead. I did one hell of a job. I'm going to go get the cubs. We got lunch. And she struts off to go get the cubs. The gazelle smells for the lion to not be there. She stands up, shakes her whole body. You know, like when your dog gets out of the water, like, oh, shaky, shaky, shaky, shaky, shaky. And she books it on out of there. That is the stress cycle activating. Damn it, here comes a lion. Getting to its peak of running as fast as a gazelle can and then collapsing into dorsal and then standing up, shaking and running again. So that's that stress activation cycle. fully looped through. You with me so far?
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
You are in the boardroom. You thought you followed the memo exactly. You're actually really proud of this thing you wrote. It looks really good. The slideshow, gorgeous. You finish it and your boss goes, what is this crap? Sympathetic activation. I'm being chased by a lion. What should you do? Scream back and shake your whole body to get it out of you. But what do you actually do? Gosh, Megan, I'm sorry. I really thought I was following the brief. Let me know how I missed the mark on this. But you want a strangler. You want to scream. You want to throw the table, right? Your body has all this activation that needs to leave. It's good to not punch people and not throw tables, but we need to give our bodies the opportunity to process the emotions, the energy, that activation all the way through. You see what I'm saying? So this is my circuitous brain coming back to the initial question, which was, Bea, how do I feel angry at my parents while loving them, while having compassion, care, curiosity for them and what they've gone through? You give your body the space in a lovingly held container to go through that stress activation, to go back. into those moments when they didn't show up, they weren't attuned, when it hurt, when they probably didn't mean to, but they did do whatever and let yourself fully feel the thing so it can move fully through the body. So you can, as it were, get up, shake and run away from the lion. This is the process we do in somatic experiencing. And in that process, the medial frontal cortex which as you know is my favorite part of the brain obviously it's like it's like the archivist of the body in a way and it's also like your watcher like your third eye it's the consciousness that watches you be a consciousness having a conscious experience and so it's also recording how do you treat you when life is lifey and so we let you in this somatic experiencing process. be your own most loving guardian and take tender care of you in the memory of they couldn't show up.
Speaker #0
And what you just described, that whole process of getting angry, like shaking it off and then, you know, running away. Is that somatic experiencing? Like, what does that look like with a person?
Speaker #1
Yeah. You're probably not going to like literally run out of my office, right? But, but yeah, you might visualize. So we understand that the visual cortex, the whole like see visualizing and seeing things in our head, which most people can do, not everyone, most people can do, can actually play a role in changing the way the nervous system works, which is kind of bonkers bananas. But we can, you can't change the memory because you can't change history as far as I know. But we can change the way we relate to self in that moment. And then through a process known as memory reconsolidation, what then becomes the dominant experience in the nervous system is the challenging moment happened. Let's stick with the boardroom one because I think it's less triggering than a childhood one. In somatic experiencing, we would orient and ground you and create like that safer space and container for your nervous system, which is what makes it different than like catharsis, than just like punching a pillow or... screaming into the void out of nowhere, which doesn't really do anything, by the way. We would take you back into that moment in the boardroom and allow you to witness yourself being berated by your boss and then actually changing your response. So letting you visualize and somatically feel it, the sensation in your body of taking a different tack.
Speaker #0
And actually saying, you never give me clear instructions. This is unbelievable. This is so inappropriate. I spent hours on it. Whatever it is, get it out. And picture yourself slamming the table, stomping your feet. And if you want to do it with your physical body, as long as you don't hurt yourself or others, go for it and really let yourself feel that whole process. like walking on eggshells, being all tight and tense around it is able to discharge.
Speaker #1
Wow. So you literally say it out loud. Like you picture yourself in the boardroom saying those things like, you know, moving your arms, kind of getting it out physically as well. And then after that, do you literally have them shake? Am I getting out?
Speaker #0
If that's what's called for. Sometimes it's not shaking. Sometimes it's sobbing. Sometimes it's petting themselves or giving themselves a hug or cooing. You know, it can be a majillion things. But yeah, whatever the body needs, if it's a huge shake, let's do it.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
Is this process how one begins to get on the other side of emotional outsourcing? Or are there many different steps?
Speaker #0
There are so many different steps in the book. The first half is talking about reframing, is moving away from that less loving language of I am a codependent towards emotional outsourcing, right? Because it's a verb. It's not your identity. It's just what you're doing. You can do something different, right? Right. So the first half we talk about that. Like you said, in chapter two, we talk about the neurobiological underpinnings, meaning like how did your nervous What did you see? What happened? How? The hows and the whys. And then in chapter two, we talk about the two branches of remedies, which are somatic body-based and thought work, changing our mindset and the way we think about ourselves and the world. Somatic experiencing is one way to, in a way, fast track it. But there are really important things that we can and it behooves us to do. on our own at home to really begin to reclaim our nervous system. So emotional outsourcing pulls us away from ourselves and makes us meld with the people around us, right? There's like so much role confusion. And you spoke about that, right? Like being seven and feeling like, I need to be the world's best couples therapist. And I can do it.
Speaker #1
Clearly, I'm qualified.
Speaker #0
Clearly.
Speaker #1
I'm perhaps second grade.
Speaker #0
Yeah, for sure. For sure. Right? Yeah. A PhD takes about seven years and you were seven years old. So I don't see why you wouldn't have a PhD by then, right? That's logical math. Yeah. So there's all this role confusion. Who am I? Who are you? How do we relate to each other? What do I need from like all of that? And so Maddox is this beautiful tool to bring us back into the body because before we can shift our behavior, we have to actually feel ourselves as a separate person, right? Because there's that all that enmeshment that we started out our conversation by talking about, right? We're just so enmeshed with the people around us or so separate in this very, I am a rock. I am an island hyper independent way. Right. And so we need to feel ourselves as a separate person that is in connection in that healthy interdependent way. Does that make sense?
Speaker #1
It does make sense.
Speaker #0
Just looking at your face. Yeah.
Speaker #1
Yeah. It makes sense. I think the thing that I... when you talk about black and white thinking that really resonates. And I struggle with that a lot because I'm like, okay, so then do I just like not be in relationship with people? I'm like, how do I make it make sense? Because it's like, if I'm in relationship with people isn't an inherently messy and I can never have it be fully clean. So then why even bother? You know, it's like you spit out just quit now. Of course, like I'm not going to do that. And I love the people in my life dearly, but I do think it's like relationships are just like so messy. And then I think I get into that same thinking of like, well, how can I do it right? How can I do it right? How can I do it right? So help me.
Speaker #0
Okay. On it, on it. I'm here. I'm here. I love you. I'm doing it. Let's go. Let's go. Relationships are, listen, here's the shift. If a relationship is pushing all your buttons, it's because it's touching on your attachment system usually.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
Right. And so the gift that I remind myself and I... I know it's very annoying to call it a gift. I'm fully aware of that, is that it means that if you can stay with it and stay present instead of trying to manage it, is it right? Is it wrong? But stay really present to it on the other side is healing of those attachment wounds. And that's the jam. Like that is seriously the jam because when you're not living from those either avoidant or anxious attachment wounds or, you know, the complex combinations like disorganized. You're not trying. You're not asking anyone else to create your emotional landscape for you.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
And that's so friggin rad.
Speaker #1
I want to ask you because I know you've had your own healing journey, which is what makes. you such an amazing teacher. But when was the moment that that piece started clicking in for you? How did you know you were starting to get to a place where you had a relationship with yourself and you could be in a relationship in a secure way?
Speaker #0
Ah, let me give you two answers and then I'll loop us back to give some really practical hands-on how do we get started.
Speaker #1
Beautiful.
Speaker #0
Great. So I'll start by saying, so as you were asking the question to the first half, when did I feel myself as a person and not feel that anxious attachment to someone else's emotions was when I was in my first abusive marriage. My first marriage, which was abusive. Luckily, I've only had the one abusive one. But I remember this moment. I remember standing in the living room. I can like smell the air and they were throwing this wild. angry temper tantrum. And my whole body was like, this isn't mine to fix. It was like this otherworldly experience of like, I don't have to manage this anymore. I can step away from this in a way that's incredibly healthy and needed to happen for years. So that was this really potent moment of feeling really secure attachment with myself. which is one of the steps into feeling secure attachment with others. I think it's similar of moments now that I'm in a wonderful, amazing, secure relationship where it's actually the same thing but with a different flavor of being like you're having your big feelings and I'm loving
Speaker #1
Because I think I get there sometimes in my relationship, but sometimes I still want to fix things. Like, oh, he's upset. I should help him not feel upset. And it's nothing bad, but it's like, why do I feel responsible when I haven't created it?
Speaker #0
Well, because it's your sourcing safety.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
That's all it is. And so I just remember the part of me that wants to source safety by fixing doesn't understand adults. It understands little kids and like, oh, you're upset. Do you want some ice cream? Okay. I'm not upset anymore. Right. But what I remind myself is that when I negate another adult feeling their feelings, I'm both not doing them any favors. And it's really not loving at the end of the day.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
Because what you're saying is there's something wrong with you having feelings. It's not OK with me if you have feelings. You better cut it out. Even when it sounds like, oh, don't worry about it. There's more fish in the sea. Oh, they're in a better place or oh, don't be angry. I'm sure he didn't mean it that way. What you're saying is your feelings are a problem in this moment. In order for me to continue loving you, you need to stop having them. And I mean, yikes. I don't think any of us are like consciously doing that. Jeez. Don't be a meanie, but it's what we're doing. And I know that what has helped me grow and shift and change is feeling loved, feeling safe, feeling cared about, but not being managed, which can look like, oh, I know this is really upsetting. I can tell you're having a lot of big feelings. I'm at my limit of... processing this right now and I love you. So I'm going to go sit on the couch and have a cup of tea. If you want to take a Leslie Knope break with me, I'm available for that. And I can hold you and pet your little hair while you process it, which is so different.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
How's that landing? Does that seem doable or real?
Speaker #1
Yeah, for sure. I think I'm achieving it sometimes, but I'm like, you know, 50% of the way there, maybe a little bit more. My husband has taught me a lot about this because he actually does have the ability to do what you just said. Like, I will be having like a crying fest over something and he can really just like hold it with me. He has had to teach me how to do that for him. And like, luckily I'm a willing person. Like I like to learn. I love to get better.
Speaker #0
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker #1
So I have been able to learn, like I don't have to fix things actually. Sometimes like holding space is the most loving thing you can do. And so I'm better at it. But I think maybe even more than like stepping in and trying to fix, the tension I'm holding is that I still feel like in my body, I'm doing something wrong. if I'm not fixing.
Speaker #0
That's when I remind that part of me that it actually can't fix. It can't because it's a feeling. The problem is a feeling, which feelings aren't problems and feelings can't be fixed. So it's operating from an old operating system. It's operating from an old story. Let me loop back to my... tool that I recommend. You asked me what's the first place to start to overcome emotional outsourcing. Let's see how this lands and if this feels helpful for that moment. Yeah?
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
Side note, this is my favorite part of my ADHD. It's the kind that can weave all these little threads together in the air. And I can actually see the old conversation sitting here waiting for us.
Speaker #1
That is so cool.
Speaker #0
I love it.
Speaker #1
Yeah. Thank you to your brain.
Speaker #0
Right? Because I will go out. on a tangent, but I always come back. Shout out to brains. If you've got one, like and follow. Yeah. Okay. So here's what we're talking about, right? Actually feeling yourself as self. The more you practice noticing yourself without judgment, the stronger your internal reference are and can again be the center of your own frigging universe, which means that your husband is the center of his universe and your mom and my dad. And so when you can truly feel self as self, you can stay with self even when someone's suffering and you want to leave yourself to take care of them. But of course... We leave self very quickly when we can't feel what that is. You know what I mean? Like if you've never had Thai food and someone's like, taste this. Does this taste like Thai food? You're like, bro, I have no idea what that tastes like.
Speaker #1
You know what I mean? You need the reference point. Yeah,
Speaker #0
I've never used it before. I shall use it many times from now on. Thank you. So, okay. So here's the practice. And I recommend that we set timers on our phone and do this at least three times a day. but it only has to take about six to seven seconds. So like 10 seconds, maybe don't make it a thing. Take a breath, long or slow out. What am I feeling right now? Is there an emotion that I can name? And then it could be a couple. That's fine. Who cares? I feel content. I feel excited because I love nerding about this stuff. I love talking to you. I love your vibe. I love your I'm happy and content and excited. Scan your body. Where is there tension? Where is there E? What sensations are present in the body? Yeah, and so you can do a sort of general scan to just see your baseline. You can also connect them to the happiness. So in general, when I scan my body, there's a little tension right where the bra strap is because I've had a lot of interviews Can you just, why are you doing that? I had a big workout this morning. My traps feel a little tense, but I've been doing this work for so long. I know it's physical and not emotional, which is really nice. And then where's the happiness? Oh, it feels like little kava bubbles, like champagne, but better because it's from Spain in my chest and behind my eyes. And it's like... like bright pink behind my eyes, like a really nice fuchsia, which my mother says, fuchsia, which just always makes me laugh. Es fuchsia. Bella es fuchsia. El color es fuchsia. But it's like a really giggly light energy. And we ask these questions not for the answers. If you get an answer, if you feel a sensation, if you hear a voice, feel a thing, Cool. Bonus points. When you don't, because no one on this side of the mic is expecting you to for days, weeks, months, maybe years, if this is new to you. When you don't get data in return, cool. Nothing's gone wrong, but nothing's gone wrong. We're asking because we're flipping the script in emotional outsourcing. Our attention is on everyone and everything outside of us. So we're picking up a mirror and we're making ourselves our North Star, our reference point. So we're asking to ask, what am I feeling right now? Well, I don't know. Stricken clue. Okay, cool. But I cared enough to ask me because I matter to me. So when he's having big feelings, am I going to leave me to manage them? A little less every day. A little less every day where I am my reference point, not his joy, his happiness, his ease. And so too with getting to know the sensations. And then the third part is if you do get data, which again, no one's expecting, do one small act of self-honoring. So if you feel tension, stretch. If you feel like pent up, shake. If you feel sad or like heavy in your chest, put a hand there, right? Or adjust your posture, get cozier. It doesn't matter. Again, what we're doing is creating an internal worldview where you as you, not a false self, not the good girl, not the good wife, not the good employee. You as you matter to you. The mosty mostest just. How's that Landon?
Speaker #1
It lands great. I mean, I definitely want to relisten to this so that I can absorb it fully, but no, that it is something I try to do even when I'm doing interviews now noticing, oh my God, I'm clenching because I feel like I have to ask the right question, you know? Yeah. And then breathing in and being like, it's okay. You're just talking to someone, whatever is meant to be like, it will be of service to people. And you know, like even that pressure. But the other thing that I love that you talked about in the book and it's the place I'm at right now in my reading is shame. And I notice every time I discuss something like this, every time I admit on the podcast, I'm not perfect, which I do pretty much every episode. I am hit with like a pang of shame because I'm like, I should be better. I should be better, you know? And so as we're talking about this, I'm naming that, I'm noticing it coming up in me. And I wonder if you might just be willing to speak a little bit on the presence of shame for people who are healing from emotional outsourcing and how to start moving past that.
Speaker #0
Shame is, and I'll just define terms. So guilt, especially pro-social guilt is a beautiful thing. It says, I did an oopsie, right? So like, you know, when you're getting on an airplane and you whack someone in the face with your backpack, oh God, I'm so sorry. Oh, geez. So sorry. Pro-social guilt. Great. You'll be more careful next time. Shame takes that guilt, which is just instructions about how to be a kind person in the world, and it attacks your very self, that self that's so tenuous in emotional outsourcing, right? You don't really know who you are, if it's okay that you're like alive or breathing or like existing. And then shame floods in to say, you are unlovable. Behave in the way that is most likely to make these people love you. And so that's how I that's the role I believe shame is playing for us is attempting to want to put us in the good graces of the people around us by keeping us in line. Does that resonate with your experience?
Speaker #1
Yeah. I mean, the interesting thing is I always do think I'm very lovable, but it's more of an idea of like, oh, I'm bad. You know, that's how I look at it.
Speaker #0
Yeah. I guess it's about worth,
Speaker #1
I think so. It's like an idea that like, oh, I should be better. I should be better. I should have this figured out. There is a right answer.
Speaker #0
This is a right answer. Yeah. like a verdict, you're bad and start treating it like a signal. So shame shows up when you've been trained to believe your worth hinges on someone else's comfort, right? And so the way through is to bring that feeling into the body instead of running it through that mental shame spiral. Because like, listen, the more you ruminate, right? The stronger and stronger and stronger teach folks to do is to bring it to the body, meaning... orient your nervous system, which is one of the most important tools, which quite simply means remind the nervous system that there's no lions here. And we do that by literally just looking around the room we're in. And if folks go to my website to BeatriceAlbina.com slash free, F-R-E-E, there's a set of orienting exercises and other nervous system meditations you can download for free there. But so we orient the nervous system when we feel shame, we just look let ourselves ground for a moment and then notice the sensation. So do you know what temperature shame usually has for you?
Speaker #1
Oh, it's hot.
Speaker #0
It's hot. It's hot for me too. Is it squeezing? Is it loose?
Speaker #1
Squeezing.
Speaker #0
Yeah. Is it heavy? Is it light?
Speaker #1
Heavy.
Speaker #0
Yeah. Where is it in your body?
Speaker #1
Chest, gut, throat, shoulders.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
Back.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
My trunk. generally.
Speaker #0
Trunk. Yeah. Can we feel into it now? Is that safe enough to do for a second? Okay. So let yourself be with it. And what do you notice as you're with that shame?
Speaker #1
I want to escape.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
I want to run away and pretend like it's not happening.
Speaker #0
Yeah. Is it safe enough to stay with it, with me here holding you?
Speaker #1
Yes.
Speaker #0
Okay. And if that changes to no, we move on. Yeah? So let your breath widen around it. Let yourself hold some space around it and see if there's a part that needs to be soothed to let yourself stay with the shame. Yeah. If it feels safe enough to ask the shame, what it wants you to know. Um,
Speaker #1
it's saying like, I want you to be good enough.
Speaker #0
Yeah,
Speaker #1
So then people will like you and you'll be safe?
Speaker #0
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it sounds like the shame really loves you, Yeah, yeah. So then I'm curious if there is a part of you that knows that you're already good enough.
Speaker #1
Yeah, definitely.
Speaker #0
Yeah? Where do you find it? Where is it?
Speaker #1
It's also in my chest, but it's like a bright feeling. And it's like in my throat. It's in my hands. expansive and young, actually. It's really young. And it's fun.
Speaker #0
Yeah. Yeah. So what does that part want shame to know?
Speaker #1
You don't have to work so hard. We can play.
Speaker #0
Yeah. Yeah, we can play. Because what does play allow?
Speaker #1
Creativity.
Speaker #0
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Do you feel that shift in your nervous system?
Speaker #1
Yeah. I feel so hopeful. Yeah.
Speaker #0
Yeah. And you look different. Watch the video back. I will. Lighter.
Speaker #1
I feel alive.
Speaker #0
Your eyes look brighter.
Speaker #1
Yeah. I mean, it's interesting. This conversation came at a time. I actually have been feeling like I'm doing really well and on a track. But in the past week, I've been triggered by something that like it's like a work thing and it mirrors a past pain point and trauma. And I've been like in a tailspin for the past week. And honestly, that snapped me out of it.
Speaker #0
Yeah. I mean,
Speaker #1
obviously there's more work to do, but like that's the first time in about a week light behind my eyes, but also lightness and levity in my chest. So.
Speaker #0
Oh, Lauren, that's beautiful.
Speaker #1
Yeah, you're very gifted.
Speaker #0
Oh, thank you. Well, I was about to say, do you see how quickly your nervous system wanted to go there?
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
We don't want to stay in the ouchie. It's just the ouchie is the habit. So we stay because, well, I'm here anyway. But we have the skills and tools within us when we listen in and ask for internal support. Boom. It was right there. It was right there all along, just waiting to hold your little hand.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
Oh, it's tender.
Speaker #1
Yes.
Speaker #0
It's tender.
Speaker #1
Yes.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
I mean, we joked about talking for six hours. I actually could talk to you for six hours.
Speaker #0
We could do a part two. I'll come back. Oh my gosh, really? Okay. I need to do one.
Speaker #1
Perfect.
Speaker #0
Oh my God, I love talking to you. I'll come back.
Speaker #1
I love talking to you too. You're so wonderful. I just... I feel a kinship with you.
Speaker #0
It's mutual. Yeah, for sure.
Speaker #1
But I would be remiss if I didn't ask you about creativity before we wrapped because I can really feel into it and I've shared some of the things that I think engaging in this practice, I don't know if practice is the right word, but engaging in emotional outsourcing affected my creativity, especially when I was younger. What are some ways it could be holding you back from your creativity? And also... What's on the other side when you start healing for your creativity?
Speaker #0
I made the single most heinous crochet project the other day. I can't even begin to tell you how outstandingly horrific this thing is. You know what was really fun at the end? I put it on, I got my photos made going, look at this To send to the woman who made the pattern. And then I took it apart with a smile on my face the whole goddamn time. Because who cares? Who cares? It's a creative outlet. I'm taking strings and making them into things. What am I doing? You know, we'll often like on a weekend morning do watercolors because who cares? Who cares? And that who cares? is very different than the me studying studio art at Oberlin in the 90s who like had to get the design perfect and the font perfect and the perfect, perfect. I had to develop the photo exactly. You know what I mean? That story that perfect exist is it is the murder of creativity, right? It's kryptonite. It stops the entire process because it's no longer about the expression of self. Self is messy. You said relationships are messy? Self is messy.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
And that's the gift. I don't use AI. I don't want to be a robot. I messy, please. Messy, please. Because that's how we are in this human process. I have to make the pretty art and the pretty crochet and the pretty knitting and the pretty poem. And you know what I mean? It's always going to be this external story of what good enough is when it is, when we're trying to measure up to someone else's story. And that's what the core of emotional outsourcing is. You are not the arbiter of your own worth and your own value. So who's going to tell you your art is good? If you don't think yourself is good, right? My art is truly, truly heinous these days. And I'm so glad. I mean, I've been painting these like lopsided watercolor birds on everything that'll sit still. They're truly, I mean, they're a disaster. That's the point. That's the point. You know what I mean?
Speaker #1
Yeah. So it sounds like... An ability to release perfectionism and really become internally motivated.
Speaker #0
It's yes, and presence, because that's the key core thing that's missing in emotional outsourcing, presence and intentionality. Nothing's intentional. It's just default running, running, running. You're like on this treadmill of life instead of making the next choice for And so when you reclaim self, you reclaim your core creativity. Because if not, what are you? You're cookie-cuttering a pattern. And that's great. I mean, I sew as well. Very poor, very, very poorly. And that's fun. But we're talking about something else, that creative drive to make for making sake. Only a self can do it. I love that so much.
Speaker #1
Thank you. Thank you for everything you shared. I mean, because... Oh my gosh,
Speaker #0
it's so fun.
Speaker #1
It's so fun. And the reason... I started this podcast was because I wanted to help people unleash their creativity. And when I first started, I was like, okay, I'm just going to give them all the tools. And then I realized, okay, it's an inside job. And this show really looks at creativity through the lens of healing because that's where I believe it is. And you just gave so many incredible insights into how we can start to do that. And I just thank you for the work you do for who you are and for making
Speaker #0
I have to like go put an envelope in the mail to you with it.
Speaker #1
We'll hang one in my office. I actually have some childhood artwork. Like when you said look around the room, I thought it's my little childhood artwork. So I would love to hang your stuff. This is my room of creativity. I designed it to be like what I would have wanted as a little kid.
Speaker #0
That's awesome.
Speaker #1
Yeah. This is a lip couch.
Speaker #0
That's incredible.
Speaker #1
Thank you.
Speaker #0
I love Well,
Speaker #1
I love you. Thank you for having me. It was a fricking delight. Ah, likewise. Thank you, Bea. Thank you. And you can check out her podcast, Feminist Wellness, wherever you get your shows. I will be on it soon if I haven't already. So definitely subscribe, follow her feed so you do not miss our episode together and all of her other amazing content. Unleash Your Inner Creative is hosted and executive produced by me, Lauren LaGrasso, edited by Blondel Garcon with theme music by Liz Full. Again, thank you, my sweet creative cutie for being here. If you like what you heard today, please share the show with a friend. Podcasts are really spread person to person. Be sure to follow and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify. Leave us a rating and review. Comment on Spotify. All of these things really help the show grow. And if you really like the show, post about it on social media. Tag me at Lauren LaGrasso and at Unleash Your Inner Creative, and I will repost to share my gratitude. My wish for you this week is that you reconnect with a part of yourself you've put aside, whether it's your voice, your needs, or your joy. Welcome it back in. Let that... be the first small step toward coming home to yourself and coming home to your creativity too. I love you and I believe in you. Talk with you next week.

About Unleash Your Inner Creative with Lauren LoGrasso (A Creativity Podcast)

Unleash Your Inner Creative is a Webby Award-winning podcast designed to help you break free from self-doubt, embrace your creativity, and live an authentic, purpose-filled life. I’m Lauren LoGrasso, a multi-passionate creative, and I believe that repressed creativity is one of the root causes of unhappiness—which is why I’m here to help you unleash yours! Through a blend of inspiring interviews, solo episodes, and coaching sessions, this show explores creativity, mental health, spirituality, and self-development.

On the pod, you'll hear from incredible guests like The Artist’s Way author Julia Cameron, How I Built This host Guy Raz, brain coach Jim Kwik, and Codependent No More's Melody Beattie, as well as artists and performers like Chrisette Michele and Hannah Berner. Together, we share the tools and insights to help you rewire your mindset, overcome fear, and follow your heart’s deepest desires. Whether you’re a lifelong creative or just feeling a spark, I invite you to tune in, tap into your true potential, and unleash your inner creative!

New episodes are out every Wednesday - follow, rate and review wherever you get your podcasts :)

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

About Unleash Your Inner Creative with Lauren LoGrasso (A Creativity Podcast)

New episodes are out every Wednesday - follow, rate and review wherever you get your podcasts :)

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Description

What if the way you learned to love, connect, and succeed wasn’t actually you, but survival strategies you picked up as a kid?

This conversation is especially vulnerable for me. Bea even guides me through a live somatic practice to help release shame, and as you listen, I hope you can do the same.

In this episode, you’ll learn:

If you’ve ever abandoned yourself in order to be “good,” “enough,” or lovable, this episode will help you return to a more empowered, creative version of yourself.

Follow the show: @unleashyourinnercreative

Follow me: @LaurenLoGrasso

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Transcription

Speaker #0
What if the way you learned to love, connect, and succeed wasn't actually your way, but rather survival strategies you picked up as a kid? And what if those same survival strategies are the very thing blocking your creativity, your intuition, and your ability to trust yourself? If you've ever swallowed your feelings, softened your needs, or shapeshifted to fit in, you are not alone. Today is about coming back home to yourself. Because when you remember who you were before the world told you who to be, your creativity and power naturally rise. Welcome to Unleash Your Inner Creative with Lauren LaGrasso. I'm Lauren LaGrasso. I'm a Webby Award-winning podcast host and producer, singer-songwriter, public speaker, and creative coach. And this show is meant to give you tools to love, trust, and know yourself enough to claim your birthright to creativity and pursue your wildest dreams. Today's guest is Beatrice Victoria Albina, aka Bea. She is a somatic experiencing practitioner, master certified somatic life coach, nurse practitioner, and host of the Feminist Wellness Podcast, which I will actually be on soon, or maybe I already have been. I don't know when it's coming out, but make sure you subscribe to it so you don't miss that episode. She also is the author of the amazing book, End Emotional Outsourcing, which I highly recommend and have been loving. Bea helps people, especially people socialized as women, to break free from emotional outsourcing, regulate their nervous systems, and reclaim their joy. And on today's show, she will help you do just that. Honestly, this is one of the most vulnerable episodes I've done in a while. She even walked me through a technique to help me heal my shame and understand what it wanted for me. It made me feel so much lighter. And as I go through it, you can go through it too and do the same for yourself, I'm telling you, it's revolutionary. It helped me so much and I know it will help you too. From this conversation, you'll learn what emotional outsourcing is and why it shows up, how childhood patterns shape your creativity and relationships, how to stop taking responsibility for everybody else's emotions, somatic tools to help you unwind people-pleasing and perfectionism, and why healing your attachment wounds opens the door to your true voice. If you've... ever abandon yourself to achieve what you see as goodness or enoughness, this episode will help you return to your most empowered, creative version of yourself. Okay, now here she is, Beatrice Victoria Albina. I am so excited that you're here. I adore your work. I love how accessible it is. And it makes me feel very seen. So just thank you for the work you do and for who you are in the world.
Speaker #1
Oh, thank you so much. I continue to be extremely humbled when I hear things like that, like in a really good way. You know what I mean? And so thank you. It's wild that I just like sit here and I think things and then I say them into the world and they get to other people's ears. Do you ever have that moment where you're like, whoa, wait a second?
Speaker #0
Yeah. Yeah. It's one of the cool parts of the timeline we live in that we can connect with people like that and share our thoughts. And if we're brave enough to do it, like have an impact. That's so cool.
Speaker #1
It is pretty cool.
Speaker #0
So I want to talk about your journey because I say a lot of the times our creative purpose is. the midpoint between our greatest joy and our greatest suffering. And it seems like that could be true when it comes to your work. So I wonder if you might walk my creative cuties through how your journey led you to teach on emotional outsourcing, healing and wellness through the lens of feminism.
Speaker #1
Yeah, for sure. Um, also, I love that you call your babies, your cuties.
Speaker #0
I know. I love all of your little terms of endearment. I was like, Oh my gosh, I am like, What did you call me? Like preface? Tender ravioli. Tender ravioli. Yes. I am a tender ravioli. I'm Italian. So that felt very fitting. It's good for my soul.
Speaker #1
Paisan, it's good for your spirit to remember that you have a soft, cheesy center. It's important. Like for realsies.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
Which of course is a perfect segue to why I coined the term emotional outsourcing. Listen, I had all of the habits that are emotional outsourcing, codependent, perfectionist, people-pleasing habit. Would I have called myself any of those things? Can I say bafangulo on this show?
Speaker #0
Oh, for sure.
Speaker #1
In which case, me bafangulo. You know what I'm saying? Because, and for people who don't know, we're cussing in Italian. Listen. It's real. Forget about it. Co-dependent? I'm a modern, independent feminist woman. I don't need a codependent. Get out of here. Unless, I'm sorry, Lauren, is that okay with you? Are you mad at me? Do you still love me? Am I okay? Is it okay? Do you want me to leave? Should we cancel the interview? I'm sorry. Did that piss you off? Oh God, I'm so sorry. I always mess everything up. Right, right. And perfectionism? Excuse me, once again, I'm so far from perfect. Like this one time I got like an 89 on an exam. So.
Speaker #0
God forbid.
Speaker #1
Well, but that's just more evidence that I'm not a perfectionist. So get out of here. And then people pleasing. Do you know, Lauren, how many people are currently displeased with me? At least three, which means not a people pleaser. And I'm being hilarious, but like I'm being a silly goose. But to say I was doing all the things, but none of the terms worked for me. None of the terms encapsulate what I was experiencing. They felt loaded with all this history and all this criticism and this talk of like. defective character, that there was something wrong with me for behaving the way I was behaving. And I wasn't buying it. And so I wanted to come up with another way to talk about how we experience life when we grow up in families where emotions are repressed or where parents are emotionally immature or where folks just don't have the skills to attend and attune to kids the way they need. Even when there's food on the table and a roof over your head and karate classes and ballet and YMCA summer camp and like all the trappings. But your nervous system is not landing solidly in, I am okay being my authentic self. And because we're not fools and because I wasn't a fool, we adopt these habits. But we can't get help for them. We can't come out the other side. And they will continue to impact our creative life, our work life, our relationships, our everything when we can't see ourselves in the definition. So we can't get help that gets us out of it. You know what I'm saying?
Speaker #0
Oh, yeah, I know. I relate to like every word you say. Well, maybe before we go further, can we define what is emotional outsourcing for those that don't know?
Speaker #1
Yeah, I thought you'd never ask. So, um, Emotional outsourcing is my term for our codependent perfectionist and people-pleasing habits. It's an umbrella term that encapsulates them to give us a new entryway. And it's when we chronically and habitually source our sense of the three vital human needs, safety, belonging, and worth from everyone and everything outside of ourselves instead of from within at a great cost to self.
Speaker #0
Tracking, tracking.
Speaker #1
Listen, listen.
Speaker #0
I did have a question about this because growing up Italian, I think that all these things we talk about, like when I first learned about codependency, I'm like, what do you mean? That's just called being alive. Wednesday. Yeah. And I think, you know, I at least notice it in my own culture that this is like a thing that happens, like the enmeshment, the, you know, relying on each other, but to a point where it's probably a little bit unhealthy. And do you find that like certain cultures have this more at the forefront or like it's like normalized in certain cultures more or is it kind of across the board?
Speaker #1
I think it's it's a pan human experience and I think it shows up really differently.
Speaker #0
Yeah,
Speaker #1
because what you're expressing through your Italian lineage is that enmeshed all up in each other's business. The emotions are hot and huge and big and screaming. And like, similarly, I'm Argentine, a lot of that. Someone maybe was like, grew up in like a very waspy environment where there were no feelings, no, no conflict. Everything's fine. Stiff upper lip. Right. Like, just like push it away. It doesn't exist. Suck it up, buttercup. Like that kind of framework. And then at the end of the day, what's the lived experience? How does it show up? in the same emotional outsourcing, right? So it could be a collectivist Asian culture, and I'm making broad swaths generalizations here because that's what we're doing, right? Or an equally enmeshed Latin American culture, right, can lead to us relating to ourself and each other in very similar ways.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
Because if the feelings are huge and screamed at you, there's no room for you to have feelings. And if there's no feelings allowed in the house, there's no room for you to have feelings. So who are you without your emotional experience of self?
Speaker #0
So, okay, because I'm relating to this because I think my husband had a more similar experience to the shut it down, push it down, doesn't exist. And I had more like every feeling is on the table and I'm going to be the one to deal with them and like help counsel my parents. So how might like these two different experiences manifest, but both in emotional outsourcing?
Speaker #1
Yeah, it comes down to authenticity, right? And it comes down to. Is it safe to be you? Do you feel belonging? Right. Humans are pack animals. Our autonomic nervous system is in this profound wiring to source safety from the collective. Right. I just think about it. At the end of the day, we are very small. And don't come at me if you're six foot seven. Compare yourself to a water buffalo or a rhino. Yeah.
Speaker #0
You don't even need to get next to one of those guys.
Speaker #1
Listen, and then you can talk to me. But like, we're small. And so we need each other, right? We need to have each other's backs literally as well as figuratively. And so do we feel belonging in the pack when we are self? Do we feel safe? Do we feel worthy of the love and care of the pack when we are self? Or do we need to step into a false self? So in the repressive environment, when you're super friggin PO'd at your parent, at your sibling, at your cousin, at your whatever. No, that's fine. Thanks. No, it's okay. It's, you know, I had said to please never do that, but you did it. So, yeah, it's fine. Where's self? Where's safety and belonging and worth? It's all leaning on not rocking the apple cart, not upsetting anyone, keeping things appearing copacetic. And same too when we're in that big, the opposite side of that, of the like, all the huge feelings, all the screaming, all the everything. We're so enmeshed in each other's emotional and physical experience that there's no room for you to actually have yours because you're so trained up to like, to manage everyone else, you know?
Speaker #0
Yeah. So, oh, sorry, go ahead.
Speaker #1
No, I mean, I feel like I could. write quite the treatise on this. Like I could go off. So,
Speaker #0
you know, and in the book, there is a great chapter on what is it called? Attachment theory and all the different like styles of like maybe like upbringing that you experienced that could have manifested in a childhood and an adulthood of emotional outsourcing, which people should totally read. But what are some of the symptoms? Like how does this end up manifesting in our adulthood?
Speaker #1
Yeah. All right. You ready? Here we go. So, yeah, feeling responsible for other people's emotions. So you can't relax if someone's upset. Like, did your did your mom ever, like, actually sit on the couch when the family was watching a movie?
Speaker #0
No,
Speaker #1
no. What was she doing? I know she was busy.
Speaker #0
She was working.
Speaker #1
Yeah, she was doing the thing and the thing and the thing and the thing. Oh, I'll be right there. I'll be right there. Enjoy the popcorn sandwiches. Somebody needs to send somebody a tea coffee. Let me just you know what? I'm going to get us a dog that I'm going to walk the dog that I'm going to bathe the dog. and that You know what I mean? Like sitting down? No, no, no. That's for other people. Other people should. You should sit. You should eat. You should rest. But us? No, no, no. The matriarch, the eldest daughter, any daughter, really? No, no, no. Up and at them. Especially if someone's upset. Especially. We have to fix it. There's like this compulsion because it's again, it's tied into safety, belonging and worth. Right. If someone's upset that I maybe am not safe in this pack, I better get all over that and make sure they're comfortable, make sure they're happy, make sure everything's copacetic. We apologize constantly, even when we didn't do anything wrong. We're not even Canadian. We're just trying to keep the peace. Right.
Speaker #0
Yeah. I grew up very close to Canada, so it was a double. Yeah. Right. And Detroit, I could see it from where I lived.
Speaker #1
Yeah. Right on. Yeah. The stories are contagious,
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
Got to watch out. Avoid conflict at all costs, even if it means fibbing. And I'm not going to say lying because we're not meaning to lie. But it's like, I'm fine. Don't worry about it. It's fine. Don't worry about it. I'm like profoundly, deeply disappointed. And my entire heart and soul feels like it's torn in two. But don't worry about it. It's totally fine that you forgot our anniversary for the 12th year in a row or whatever. We fib as well by downplaying our needs, stuffing down our feelings. We don't realize it's being dishonest, but it is a lack of honesty there. We feel resentful and we fall into one of two camps. Again, you and your mister, and I'm not saying you and your mister, but I'm just saying like y'all, either the not expressing it or constantly talking about how resentful you are. Well, with all I've done for you, you can't do this. With all I've suffered for you children, that kind of thing. Taking on the therapist role in every relationship. So romantic, friendship, stranger on the bus, at work, we're like the work mom. Oh, this one's. amazing. I actually have both a PhD and a divorce in this one, taking people on as a fixer-upper. God, was I good at that. Man.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
Because I could see the real potential. And even though they're like, I don't actually want to change in any of the 10 ways you want me to. I knew. I knew, Lauren. I would be the one they would change for.
Speaker #0
Yeah. definitely So my past, I mean, yeah, that was like my 20s. Yeah,
Speaker #1
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure, for sure, for sure. Oh my God, we cannot make a fricking decision to save our lives, right? We have to like ask the entire peanut gallery. And what it comes down to is not trusting ourself because again, we don't know self. Like that capital S self I talk about so much in the book, right? We're not in that self, we're in a false self. And so we're so scared to make a misstep. because we're scared of being kicked out of the pack, that setting a boundary, setting a limit, knowing our own limit, saying no, like the guilt is so overwhelming that we delay decisions until the decision's like just made by default, right? Like, oh, well, the deadline passed. I didn't join the class, you know? And we choose what's easier for others, even if it's inconvenient, it's uncomfortable, it's painful. And often it's because we have We so often grew up with parents or caregivers who were living in emotional outsourcing themselves. And so they had that kind of black and white thinking. And I talk about this in the book, Monkey See, Monkey Do, right? Mirror neurons in the brain teach us to do what our grownups are doing. I mean, it's pretty smart, right? Who else are we going to model ourselves after? And so if they lived in that all or nothing black and white, so we do too. And so we come to make a decision. There's a right and a wrong and we just don't have access to it. And so we're so profoundly scared that we'll pick the wrong and then everything will be destroyed and we'll be abandoned. I mean, coming back to the attachment wound stuff, we don't want to do it. Right. It's too like existentially frightening.
Speaker #0
Yeah. Is this like this is something I've kind of realized over the last year that I've been unwinding this this idea of like there's a right and a wrong and I just don't have access to it. I noticed that no matter what situation I was in, I would blame myself. Like even when there were a million other things at play, like take my career, you know, in when I was pursuing acting when I was younger, it was all my fault. It couldn't possibly have been that I was in a completely unfair industry with wild standards that usually has nothing to do with ability, often has to do with looks and like network connections and nepotism. them. For me, I was like, I have failed and it's all because of me. I just wasn't good enough. Now, maybe, and I didn't try hard enough. Maybe I could have tried a little harder. Like I can take responsibility where it was the case. But I think I gave up on that dream at that time, not because I failed. Because like, number one, I had rebranded disappointment as failure. And number two, I took all the blame and responsibility. instead of giving out everywhere where it was deserved. And is this a common practice of people who are engaging with emotional outsourcing?
Speaker #1
Yes, because if we cannot keep ourself safe, everyone around us is in charge of it because we're not competent enough to be in charge. So they have to be in charge because someone's got to be in charge. And so if we look at them and we say, it was my agent, It was my manager. It was like all these people's fault. they failed me, then again, it's that existential dread. Because if they're not protecting you, who is? No one is. And when the lions come, because it's not if for the human nervous system, when the lions come, who will protect me? And so this is why it's so often so hard for us to get mad at our parents or caregivers, right? And we jump right from... They did all these really painful things, but they were doing the best they could. And what we skip over is putting responsibility where it's due.
Speaker #0
Yeah. I want to talk with you about that because I shared that with my parents because they really were like the most loving people on earth and adore me, like never missed a performance. Even now, I just did a speaking engagement in Vegas. They flew out to see me. Like they're incredible people. And I know both of them, especially my mom, struggled with this. And I picked it up. And I also, you know, we've discussed it a lot, even on this podcast a couple times, but... I definitely acted as therapist to them. Like when I was seven, they went into couples counseling and I said to them, you don't need a counselor. I'll be your counselor. And like, I really thought I could do a better job than the counselor. And honestly, I probably could have. Let's be honest. Hindsight. Hindsight. But, you know, that responsibility shouldn't have been on me as a seven year old. But I struggle with holding, you know, how can I stay compassionate and loving and acknowledge Ciao. all the good my parents did and also see where I was missed or I was put in a position I shouldn't have been. And that's playing out now.
Speaker #1
It's interesting that you're bringing exactly this up because this has been the theme all week in my coaching group is exactly this, is how to hold this duality. And this is the core of acceptance, is accepting that people are complex and don't always do things in... what in hindsight is the most bestest way, and they can still be loving, kind, good people. And there can be a part of you, this is where we can bring internal family systems, Dick Schwartz's work in, there can be a part of you that is super PO'd, that's super angry at them. While your adult self, your whole integrated adult self can understand that This was modeled for them. And it was the model for your grandparents. And it was modeled for your great grandparents and for your great, great grandparents, right? That this is what was survival skills. But it's really important to let ourselves have the anger not to hold onto it, but so that it doesn't fester within, right? So that that emotion can move through the body and be transmuted as it were. can be processed through the body.
Speaker #0
So how do you do that?
Speaker #1
Yeah, I knew that was palmin. Listen, you got a couple, six months. But in all honesty, it is a very annoyingly slow process, right? Especially for those of us who are fast animals, it is a particularly annoying process because it's the process of getting back into your body. being present in your body, and then letting your body guide you to complete the actions, the movement. I'm going to say words and then I'm going to refine them and explain them. Don't worry. Nobody get nervous or get nervous if you want to. It's uncalled for. So there's movement and action potentials that arise in the body when there's a stressor. And if we're not able to complete that stress activation, then that remains in the body. Okay, what the hell did I just say? You're a gazelle. You're running across the Sahara. There's a lion chasing you. You're the slowest gazelle in the pack because you didn't eat your Wheaties this morning. And she catches, and it's the lioness that hunts. Let us just take a moment in celebration. So the lioness catches your stupid little ankle and you're like, damn it, here we go. and you collapse to the ground, and all that sympathetic activation, all that fight or flight, that adrenaline, that norepinephrine, that run, run, run, run, freaking literal lions that is in your body gets shut down as you collapse to the ground. And every gazelle cell in your body is smart enough to look real dead. But I mean, real dead, dorsal collapse in the nervous system. This is the shutdown state, which in humans looks like, wait, what? Sorry, we were just having a fight and I got overwhelmed and I like literally don't know what you were saying or what I was saying. I went dorsal. In a gazelle, it looks like heart rate slowing down, humans too, breathing slowing down, humans too, blood pressure dropping, humans too, getting flooded with opioids, endogenous opioids, humans too, because you're about to be lunch. So what happens to the gazelle? She's lying on the ground. The lion's like, oh, look, she's dead. I did one hell of a job. I'm going to go get the cubs. We got lunch. And she struts off to go get the cubs. The gazelle smells for the lion to not be there. She stands up, shakes her whole body. You know, like when your dog gets out of the water, like, oh, shaky, shaky, shaky, shaky, shaky. And she books it on out of there. That is the stress cycle activating. Damn it, here comes a lion. Getting to its peak of running as fast as a gazelle can and then collapsing into dorsal and then standing up, shaking and running again. So that's that stress activation cycle. fully looped through. You with me so far?
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
You are in the boardroom. You thought you followed the memo exactly. You're actually really proud of this thing you wrote. It looks really good. The slideshow, gorgeous. You finish it and your boss goes, what is this crap? Sympathetic activation. I'm being chased by a lion. What should you do? Scream back and shake your whole body to get it out of you. But what do you actually do? Gosh, Megan, I'm sorry. I really thought I was following the brief. Let me know how I missed the mark on this. But you want a strangler. You want to scream. You want to throw the table, right? Your body has all this activation that needs to leave. It's good to not punch people and not throw tables, but we need to give our bodies the opportunity to process the emotions, the energy, that activation all the way through. You see what I'm saying? So this is my circuitous brain coming back to the initial question, which was, Bea, how do I feel angry at my parents while loving them, while having compassion, care, curiosity for them and what they've gone through? You give your body the space in a lovingly held container to go through that stress activation, to go back. into those moments when they didn't show up, they weren't attuned, when it hurt, when they probably didn't mean to, but they did do whatever and let yourself fully feel the thing so it can move fully through the body. So you can, as it were, get up, shake and run away from the lion. This is the process we do in somatic experiencing. And in that process, the medial frontal cortex which as you know is my favorite part of the brain obviously it's like it's like the archivist of the body in a way and it's also like your watcher like your third eye it's the consciousness that watches you be a consciousness having a conscious experience and so it's also recording how do you treat you when life is lifey and so we let you in this somatic experiencing process. be your own most loving guardian and take tender care of you in the memory of they couldn't show up.
Speaker #0
And what you just described, that whole process of getting angry, like shaking it off and then, you know, running away. Is that somatic experiencing? Like, what does that look like with a person?
Speaker #1
Yeah. You're probably not going to like literally run out of my office, right? But, but yeah, you might visualize. So we understand that the visual cortex, the whole like see visualizing and seeing things in our head, which most people can do, not everyone, most people can do, can actually play a role in changing the way the nervous system works, which is kind of bonkers bananas. But we can, you can't change the memory because you can't change history as far as I know. But we can change the way we relate to self in that moment. And then through a process known as memory reconsolidation, what then becomes the dominant experience in the nervous system is the challenging moment happened. Let's stick with the boardroom one because I think it's less triggering than a childhood one. In somatic experiencing, we would orient and ground you and create like that safer space and container for your nervous system, which is what makes it different than like catharsis, than just like punching a pillow or... screaming into the void out of nowhere, which doesn't really do anything, by the way. We would take you back into that moment in the boardroom and allow you to witness yourself being berated by your boss and then actually changing your response. So letting you visualize and somatically feel it, the sensation in your body of taking a different tack.
Speaker #0
And actually saying, you never give me clear instructions. This is unbelievable. This is so inappropriate. I spent hours on it. Whatever it is, get it out. And picture yourself slamming the table, stomping your feet. And if you want to do it with your physical body, as long as you don't hurt yourself or others, go for it and really let yourself feel that whole process. like walking on eggshells, being all tight and tense around it is able to discharge.
Speaker #1
Wow. So you literally say it out loud. Like you picture yourself in the boardroom saying those things like, you know, moving your arms, kind of getting it out physically as well. And then after that, do you literally have them shake? Am I getting out?
Speaker #0
If that's what's called for. Sometimes it's not shaking. Sometimes it's sobbing. Sometimes it's petting themselves or giving themselves a hug or cooing. You know, it can be a majillion things. But yeah, whatever the body needs, if it's a huge shake, let's do it.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
Is this process how one begins to get on the other side of emotional outsourcing? Or are there many different steps?
Speaker #0
There are so many different steps in the book. The first half is talking about reframing, is moving away from that less loving language of I am a codependent towards emotional outsourcing, right? Because it's a verb. It's not your identity. It's just what you're doing. You can do something different, right? Right. So the first half we talk about that. Like you said, in chapter two, we talk about the neurobiological underpinnings, meaning like how did your nervous What did you see? What happened? How? The hows and the whys. And then in chapter two, we talk about the two branches of remedies, which are somatic body-based and thought work, changing our mindset and the way we think about ourselves and the world. Somatic experiencing is one way to, in a way, fast track it. But there are really important things that we can and it behooves us to do. on our own at home to really begin to reclaim our nervous system. So emotional outsourcing pulls us away from ourselves and makes us meld with the people around us, right? There's like so much role confusion. And you spoke about that, right? Like being seven and feeling like, I need to be the world's best couples therapist. And I can do it.
Speaker #1
Clearly, I'm qualified.
Speaker #0
Clearly.
Speaker #1
I'm perhaps second grade.
Speaker #0
Yeah, for sure. For sure. Right? Yeah. A PhD takes about seven years and you were seven years old. So I don't see why you wouldn't have a PhD by then, right? That's logical math. Yeah. So there's all this role confusion. Who am I? Who are you? How do we relate to each other? What do I need from like all of that? And so Maddox is this beautiful tool to bring us back into the body because before we can shift our behavior, we have to actually feel ourselves as a separate person, right? Because there's that all that enmeshment that we started out our conversation by talking about, right? We're just so enmeshed with the people around us or so separate in this very, I am a rock. I am an island hyper independent way. Right. And so we need to feel ourselves as a separate person that is in connection in that healthy interdependent way. Does that make sense?
Speaker #1
It does make sense.
Speaker #0
Just looking at your face. Yeah.
Speaker #1
Yeah. It makes sense. I think the thing that I... when you talk about black and white thinking that really resonates. And I struggle with that a lot because I'm like, okay, so then do I just like not be in relationship with people? I'm like, how do I make it make sense? Because it's like, if I'm in relationship with people isn't an inherently messy and I can never have it be fully clean. So then why even bother? You know, it's like you spit out just quit now. Of course, like I'm not going to do that. And I love the people in my life dearly, but I do think it's like relationships are just like so messy. And then I think I get into that same thinking of like, well, how can I do it right? How can I do it right? How can I do it right? So help me.
Speaker #0
Okay. On it, on it. I'm here. I'm here. I love you. I'm doing it. Let's go. Let's go. Relationships are, listen, here's the shift. If a relationship is pushing all your buttons, it's because it's touching on your attachment system usually.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
Right. And so the gift that I remind myself and I... I know it's very annoying to call it a gift. I'm fully aware of that, is that it means that if you can stay with it and stay present instead of trying to manage it, is it right? Is it wrong? But stay really present to it on the other side is healing of those attachment wounds. And that's the jam. Like that is seriously the jam because when you're not living from those either avoidant or anxious attachment wounds or, you know, the complex combinations like disorganized. You're not trying. You're not asking anyone else to create your emotional landscape for you.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
And that's so friggin rad.
Speaker #1
I want to ask you because I know you've had your own healing journey, which is what makes. you such an amazing teacher. But when was the moment that that piece started clicking in for you? How did you know you were starting to get to a place where you had a relationship with yourself and you could be in a relationship in a secure way?
Speaker #0
Ah, let me give you two answers and then I'll loop us back to give some really practical hands-on how do we get started.
Speaker #1
Beautiful.
Speaker #0
Great. So I'll start by saying, so as you were asking the question to the first half, when did I feel myself as a person and not feel that anxious attachment to someone else's emotions was when I was in my first abusive marriage. My first marriage, which was abusive. Luckily, I've only had the one abusive one. But I remember this moment. I remember standing in the living room. I can like smell the air and they were throwing this wild. angry temper tantrum. And my whole body was like, this isn't mine to fix. It was like this otherworldly experience of like, I don't have to manage this anymore. I can step away from this in a way that's incredibly healthy and needed to happen for years. So that was this really potent moment of feeling really secure attachment with myself. which is one of the steps into feeling secure attachment with others. I think it's similar of moments now that I'm in a wonderful, amazing, secure relationship where it's actually the same thing but with a different flavor of being like you're having your big feelings and I'm loving
Speaker #1
Because I think I get there sometimes in my relationship, but sometimes I still want to fix things. Like, oh, he's upset. I should help him not feel upset. And it's nothing bad, but it's like, why do I feel responsible when I haven't created it?
Speaker #0
Well, because it's your sourcing safety.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
That's all it is. And so I just remember the part of me that wants to source safety by fixing doesn't understand adults. It understands little kids and like, oh, you're upset. Do you want some ice cream? Okay. I'm not upset anymore. Right. But what I remind myself is that when I negate another adult feeling their feelings, I'm both not doing them any favors. And it's really not loving at the end of the day.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
Because what you're saying is there's something wrong with you having feelings. It's not OK with me if you have feelings. You better cut it out. Even when it sounds like, oh, don't worry about it. There's more fish in the sea. Oh, they're in a better place or oh, don't be angry. I'm sure he didn't mean it that way. What you're saying is your feelings are a problem in this moment. In order for me to continue loving you, you need to stop having them. And I mean, yikes. I don't think any of us are like consciously doing that. Jeez. Don't be a meanie, but it's what we're doing. And I know that what has helped me grow and shift and change is feeling loved, feeling safe, feeling cared about, but not being managed, which can look like, oh, I know this is really upsetting. I can tell you're having a lot of big feelings. I'm at my limit of... processing this right now and I love you. So I'm going to go sit on the couch and have a cup of tea. If you want to take a Leslie Knope break with me, I'm available for that. And I can hold you and pet your little hair while you process it, which is so different.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
How's that landing? Does that seem doable or real?
Speaker #1
Yeah, for sure. I think I'm achieving it sometimes, but I'm like, you know, 50% of the way there, maybe a little bit more. My husband has taught me a lot about this because he actually does have the ability to do what you just said. Like, I will be having like a crying fest over something and he can really just like hold it with me. He has had to teach me how to do that for him. And like, luckily I'm a willing person. Like I like to learn. I love to get better.
Speaker #0
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker #1
So I have been able to learn, like I don't have to fix things actually. Sometimes like holding space is the most loving thing you can do. And so I'm better at it. But I think maybe even more than like stepping in and trying to fix, the tension I'm holding is that I still feel like in my body, I'm doing something wrong. if I'm not fixing.
Speaker #0
That's when I remind that part of me that it actually can't fix. It can't because it's a feeling. The problem is a feeling, which feelings aren't problems and feelings can't be fixed. So it's operating from an old operating system. It's operating from an old story. Let me loop back to my... tool that I recommend. You asked me what's the first place to start to overcome emotional outsourcing. Let's see how this lands and if this feels helpful for that moment. Yeah?
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
Side note, this is my favorite part of my ADHD. It's the kind that can weave all these little threads together in the air. And I can actually see the old conversation sitting here waiting for us.
Speaker #1
That is so cool.
Speaker #0
I love it.
Speaker #1
Yeah. Thank you to your brain.
Speaker #0
Right? Because I will go out. on a tangent, but I always come back. Shout out to brains. If you've got one, like and follow. Yeah. Okay. So here's what we're talking about, right? Actually feeling yourself as self. The more you practice noticing yourself without judgment, the stronger your internal reference are and can again be the center of your own frigging universe, which means that your husband is the center of his universe and your mom and my dad. And so when you can truly feel self as self, you can stay with self even when someone's suffering and you want to leave yourself to take care of them. But of course... We leave self very quickly when we can't feel what that is. You know what I mean? Like if you've never had Thai food and someone's like, taste this. Does this taste like Thai food? You're like, bro, I have no idea what that tastes like.
Speaker #1
You know what I mean? You need the reference point. Yeah,
Speaker #0
I've never used it before. I shall use it many times from now on. Thank you. So, okay. So here's the practice. And I recommend that we set timers on our phone and do this at least three times a day. but it only has to take about six to seven seconds. So like 10 seconds, maybe don't make it a thing. Take a breath, long or slow out. What am I feeling right now? Is there an emotion that I can name? And then it could be a couple. That's fine. Who cares? I feel content. I feel excited because I love nerding about this stuff. I love talking to you. I love your vibe. I love your I'm happy and content and excited. Scan your body. Where is there tension? Where is there E? What sensations are present in the body? Yeah, and so you can do a sort of general scan to just see your baseline. You can also connect them to the happiness. So in general, when I scan my body, there's a little tension right where the bra strap is because I've had a lot of interviews Can you just, why are you doing that? I had a big workout this morning. My traps feel a little tense, but I've been doing this work for so long. I know it's physical and not emotional, which is really nice. And then where's the happiness? Oh, it feels like little kava bubbles, like champagne, but better because it's from Spain in my chest and behind my eyes. And it's like... like bright pink behind my eyes, like a really nice fuchsia, which my mother says, fuchsia, which just always makes me laugh. Es fuchsia. Bella es fuchsia. El color es fuchsia. But it's like a really giggly light energy. And we ask these questions not for the answers. If you get an answer, if you feel a sensation, if you hear a voice, feel a thing, Cool. Bonus points. When you don't, because no one on this side of the mic is expecting you to for days, weeks, months, maybe years, if this is new to you. When you don't get data in return, cool. Nothing's gone wrong, but nothing's gone wrong. We're asking because we're flipping the script in emotional outsourcing. Our attention is on everyone and everything outside of us. So we're picking up a mirror and we're making ourselves our North Star, our reference point. So we're asking to ask, what am I feeling right now? Well, I don't know. Stricken clue. Okay, cool. But I cared enough to ask me because I matter to me. So when he's having big feelings, am I going to leave me to manage them? A little less every day. A little less every day where I am my reference point, not his joy, his happiness, his ease. And so too with getting to know the sensations. And then the third part is if you do get data, which again, no one's expecting, do one small act of self-honoring. So if you feel tension, stretch. If you feel like pent up, shake. If you feel sad or like heavy in your chest, put a hand there, right? Or adjust your posture, get cozier. It doesn't matter. Again, what we're doing is creating an internal worldview where you as you, not a false self, not the good girl, not the good wife, not the good employee. You as you matter to you. The mosty mostest just. How's that Landon?
Speaker #1
It lands great. I mean, I definitely want to relisten to this so that I can absorb it fully, but no, that it is something I try to do even when I'm doing interviews now noticing, oh my God, I'm clenching because I feel like I have to ask the right question, you know? Yeah. And then breathing in and being like, it's okay. You're just talking to someone, whatever is meant to be like, it will be of service to people. And you know, like even that pressure. But the other thing that I love that you talked about in the book and it's the place I'm at right now in my reading is shame. And I notice every time I discuss something like this, every time I admit on the podcast, I'm not perfect, which I do pretty much every episode. I am hit with like a pang of shame because I'm like, I should be better. I should be better, you know? And so as we're talking about this, I'm naming that, I'm noticing it coming up in me. And I wonder if you might just be willing to speak a little bit on the presence of shame for people who are healing from emotional outsourcing and how to start moving past that.
Speaker #0
Shame is, and I'll just define terms. So guilt, especially pro-social guilt is a beautiful thing. It says, I did an oopsie, right? So like, you know, when you're getting on an airplane and you whack someone in the face with your backpack, oh God, I'm so sorry. Oh, geez. So sorry. Pro-social guilt. Great. You'll be more careful next time. Shame takes that guilt, which is just instructions about how to be a kind person in the world, and it attacks your very self, that self that's so tenuous in emotional outsourcing, right? You don't really know who you are, if it's okay that you're like alive or breathing or like existing. And then shame floods in to say, you are unlovable. Behave in the way that is most likely to make these people love you. And so that's how I that's the role I believe shame is playing for us is attempting to want to put us in the good graces of the people around us by keeping us in line. Does that resonate with your experience?
Speaker #1
Yeah. I mean, the interesting thing is I always do think I'm very lovable, but it's more of an idea of like, oh, I'm bad. You know, that's how I look at it.
Speaker #0
Yeah. I guess it's about worth,
Speaker #1
I think so. It's like an idea that like, oh, I should be better. I should be better. I should have this figured out. There is a right answer.
Speaker #0
This is a right answer. Yeah. like a verdict, you're bad and start treating it like a signal. So shame shows up when you've been trained to believe your worth hinges on someone else's comfort, right? And so the way through is to bring that feeling into the body instead of running it through that mental shame spiral. Because like, listen, the more you ruminate, right? The stronger and stronger and stronger teach folks to do is to bring it to the body, meaning... orient your nervous system, which is one of the most important tools, which quite simply means remind the nervous system that there's no lions here. And we do that by literally just looking around the room we're in. And if folks go to my website to BeatriceAlbina.com slash free, F-R-E-E, there's a set of orienting exercises and other nervous system meditations you can download for free there. But so we orient the nervous system when we feel shame, we just look let ourselves ground for a moment and then notice the sensation. So do you know what temperature shame usually has for you?
Speaker #1
Oh, it's hot.
Speaker #0
It's hot. It's hot for me too. Is it squeezing? Is it loose?
Speaker #1
Squeezing.
Speaker #0
Yeah. Is it heavy? Is it light?
Speaker #1
Heavy.
Speaker #0
Yeah. Where is it in your body?
Speaker #1
Chest, gut, throat, shoulders.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
Back.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
My trunk. generally.
Speaker #0
Trunk. Yeah. Can we feel into it now? Is that safe enough to do for a second? Okay. So let yourself be with it. And what do you notice as you're with that shame?
Speaker #1
I want to escape.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
I want to run away and pretend like it's not happening.
Speaker #0
Yeah. Is it safe enough to stay with it, with me here holding you?
Speaker #1
Yes.
Speaker #0
Okay. And if that changes to no, we move on. Yeah? So let your breath widen around it. Let yourself hold some space around it and see if there's a part that needs to be soothed to let yourself stay with the shame. Yeah. If it feels safe enough to ask the shame, what it wants you to know. Um,
Speaker #1
it's saying like, I want you to be good enough.
Speaker #0
Yeah,
Speaker #1
So then people will like you and you'll be safe?
Speaker #0
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it sounds like the shame really loves you, Yeah, yeah. So then I'm curious if there is a part of you that knows that you're already good enough.
Speaker #1
Yeah, definitely.
Speaker #0
Yeah? Where do you find it? Where is it?
Speaker #1
It's also in my chest, but it's like a bright feeling. And it's like in my throat. It's in my hands. expansive and young, actually. It's really young. And it's fun.
Speaker #0
Yeah. Yeah. So what does that part want shame to know?
Speaker #1
You don't have to work so hard. We can play.
Speaker #0
Yeah. Yeah, we can play. Because what does play allow?
Speaker #1
Creativity.
Speaker #0
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Do you feel that shift in your nervous system?
Speaker #1
Yeah. I feel so hopeful. Yeah.
Speaker #0
Yeah. And you look different. Watch the video back. I will. Lighter.
Speaker #1
I feel alive.
Speaker #0
Your eyes look brighter.
Speaker #1
Yeah. I mean, it's interesting. This conversation came at a time. I actually have been feeling like I'm doing really well and on a track. But in the past week, I've been triggered by something that like it's like a work thing and it mirrors a past pain point and trauma. And I've been like in a tailspin for the past week. And honestly, that snapped me out of it.
Speaker #0
Yeah. I mean,
Speaker #1
obviously there's more work to do, but like that's the first time in about a week light behind my eyes, but also lightness and levity in my chest. So.
Speaker #0
Oh, Lauren, that's beautiful.
Speaker #1
Yeah, you're very gifted.
Speaker #0
Oh, thank you. Well, I was about to say, do you see how quickly your nervous system wanted to go there?
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
We don't want to stay in the ouchie. It's just the ouchie is the habit. So we stay because, well, I'm here anyway. But we have the skills and tools within us when we listen in and ask for internal support. Boom. It was right there. It was right there all along, just waiting to hold your little hand.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
Oh, it's tender.
Speaker #1
Yes.
Speaker #0
It's tender.
Speaker #1
Yes.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
I mean, we joked about talking for six hours. I actually could talk to you for six hours.
Speaker #0
We could do a part two. I'll come back. Oh my gosh, really? Okay. I need to do one.
Speaker #1
Perfect.
Speaker #0
Oh my God, I love talking to you. I'll come back.
Speaker #1
I love talking to you too. You're so wonderful. I just... I feel a kinship with you.
Speaker #0
It's mutual. Yeah, for sure.
Speaker #1
But I would be remiss if I didn't ask you about creativity before we wrapped because I can really feel into it and I've shared some of the things that I think engaging in this practice, I don't know if practice is the right word, but engaging in emotional outsourcing affected my creativity, especially when I was younger. What are some ways it could be holding you back from your creativity? And also... What's on the other side when you start healing for your creativity?
Speaker #0
I made the single most heinous crochet project the other day. I can't even begin to tell you how outstandingly horrific this thing is. You know what was really fun at the end? I put it on, I got my photos made going, look at this To send to the woman who made the pattern. And then I took it apart with a smile on my face the whole goddamn time. Because who cares? Who cares? It's a creative outlet. I'm taking strings and making them into things. What am I doing? You know, we'll often like on a weekend morning do watercolors because who cares? Who cares? And that who cares? is very different than the me studying studio art at Oberlin in the 90s who like had to get the design perfect and the font perfect and the perfect, perfect. I had to develop the photo exactly. You know what I mean? That story that perfect exist is it is the murder of creativity, right? It's kryptonite. It stops the entire process because it's no longer about the expression of self. Self is messy. You said relationships are messy? Self is messy.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
And that's the gift. I don't use AI. I don't want to be a robot. I messy, please. Messy, please. Because that's how we are in this human process. I have to make the pretty art and the pretty crochet and the pretty knitting and the pretty poem. And you know what I mean? It's always going to be this external story of what good enough is when it is, when we're trying to measure up to someone else's story. And that's what the core of emotional outsourcing is. You are not the arbiter of your own worth and your own value. So who's going to tell you your art is good? If you don't think yourself is good, right? My art is truly, truly heinous these days. And I'm so glad. I mean, I've been painting these like lopsided watercolor birds on everything that'll sit still. They're truly, I mean, they're a disaster. That's the point. That's the point. You know what I mean?
Speaker #1
Yeah. So it sounds like... An ability to release perfectionism and really become internally motivated.
Speaker #0
It's yes, and presence, because that's the key core thing that's missing in emotional outsourcing, presence and intentionality. Nothing's intentional. It's just default running, running, running. You're like on this treadmill of life instead of making the next choice for And so when you reclaim self, you reclaim your core creativity. Because if not, what are you? You're cookie-cuttering a pattern. And that's great. I mean, I sew as well. Very poor, very, very poorly. And that's fun. But we're talking about something else, that creative drive to make for making sake. Only a self can do it. I love that so much.
Speaker #1
Thank you. Thank you for everything you shared. I mean, because... Oh my gosh,
Speaker #0
it's so fun.
Speaker #1
It's so fun. And the reason... I started this podcast was because I wanted to help people unleash their creativity. And when I first started, I was like, okay, I'm just going to give them all the tools. And then I realized, okay, it's an inside job. And this show really looks at creativity through the lens of healing because that's where I believe it is. And you just gave so many incredible insights into how we can start to do that. And I just thank you for the work you do for who you are and for making
Speaker #0
I have to like go put an envelope in the mail to you with it.
Speaker #1
We'll hang one in my office. I actually have some childhood artwork. Like when you said look around the room, I thought it's my little childhood artwork. So I would love to hang your stuff. This is my room of creativity. I designed it to be like what I would have wanted as a little kid.
Speaker #0
That's awesome.
Speaker #1
Yeah. This is a lip couch.
Speaker #0
That's incredible.
Speaker #1
Thank you.
Speaker #0
I love Well,
Speaker #1
I love you. Thank you for having me. It was a fricking delight. Ah, likewise. Thank you, Bea. Thank you. And you can check out her podcast, Feminist Wellness, wherever you get your shows. I will be on it soon if I haven't already. So definitely subscribe, follow her feed so you do not miss our episode together and all of her other amazing content. Unleash Your Inner Creative is hosted and executive produced by me, Lauren LaGrasso, edited by Blondel Garcon with theme music by Liz Full. Again, thank you, my sweet creative cutie for being here. If you like what you heard today, please share the show with a friend. Podcasts are really spread person to person. Be sure to follow and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify. Leave us a rating and review. Comment on Spotify. All of these things really help the show grow. And if you really like the show, post about it on social media. Tag me at Lauren LaGrasso and at Unleash Your Inner Creative, and I will repost to share my gratitude. My wish for you this week is that you reconnect with a part of yourself you've put aside, whether it's your voice, your needs, or your joy. Welcome it back in. Let that... be the first small step toward coming home to yourself and coming home to your creativity too. I love you and I believe in you. Talk with you next week.

About Unleash Your Inner Creative with Lauren LoGrasso (A Creativity Podcast)

New episodes are out every Wednesday - follow, rate and review wherever you get your podcasts :)

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About Unleash Your Inner Creative with Lauren LoGrasso (A Creativity Podcast)

New episodes are out every Wednesday - follow, rate and review wherever you get your podcasts :)

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

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Description

What if the way you learned to love, connect, and succeed wasn’t actually you, but survival strategies you picked up as a kid?

This conversation is especially vulnerable for me. Bea even guides me through a live somatic practice to help release shame, and as you listen, I hope you can do the same.

In this episode, you’ll learn:

If you’ve ever abandoned yourself in order to be “good,” “enough,” or lovable, this episode will help you return to a more empowered, creative version of yourself.

Follow the show: @unleashyourinnercreative

Follow me: @LaurenLoGrasso

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Transcription

Speaker #0
What if the way you learned to love, connect, and succeed wasn't actually your way, but rather survival strategies you picked up as a kid? And what if those same survival strategies are the very thing blocking your creativity, your intuition, and your ability to trust yourself? If you've ever swallowed your feelings, softened your needs, or shapeshifted to fit in, you are not alone. Today is about coming back home to yourself. Because when you remember who you were before the world told you who to be, your creativity and power naturally rise. Welcome to Unleash Your Inner Creative with Lauren LaGrasso. I'm Lauren LaGrasso. I'm a Webby Award-winning podcast host and producer, singer-songwriter, public speaker, and creative coach. And this show is meant to give you tools to love, trust, and know yourself enough to claim your birthright to creativity and pursue your wildest dreams. Today's guest is Beatrice Victoria Albina, aka Bea. She is a somatic experiencing practitioner, master certified somatic life coach, nurse practitioner, and host of the Feminist Wellness Podcast, which I will actually be on soon, or maybe I already have been. I don't know when it's coming out, but make sure you subscribe to it so you don't miss that episode. She also is the author of the amazing book, End Emotional Outsourcing, which I highly recommend and have been loving. Bea helps people, especially people socialized as women, to break free from emotional outsourcing, regulate their nervous systems, and reclaim their joy. And on today's show, she will help you do just that. Honestly, this is one of the most vulnerable episodes I've done in a while. She even walked me through a technique to help me heal my shame and understand what it wanted for me. It made me feel so much lighter. And as I go through it, you can go through it too and do the same for yourself, I'm telling you, it's revolutionary. It helped me so much and I know it will help you too. From this conversation, you'll learn what emotional outsourcing is and why it shows up, how childhood patterns shape your creativity and relationships, how to stop taking responsibility for everybody else's emotions, somatic tools to help you unwind people-pleasing and perfectionism, and why healing your attachment wounds opens the door to your true voice. If you've... ever abandon yourself to achieve what you see as goodness or enoughness, this episode will help you return to your most empowered, creative version of yourself. Okay, now here she is, Beatrice Victoria Albina. I am so excited that you're here. I adore your work. I love how accessible it is. And it makes me feel very seen. So just thank you for the work you do and for who you are in the world.
Speaker #1
Oh, thank you so much. I continue to be extremely humbled when I hear things like that, like in a really good way. You know what I mean? And so thank you. It's wild that I just like sit here and I think things and then I say them into the world and they get to other people's ears. Do you ever have that moment where you're like, whoa, wait a second?
Speaker #0
Yeah. Yeah. It's one of the cool parts of the timeline we live in that we can connect with people like that and share our thoughts. And if we're brave enough to do it, like have an impact. That's so cool.
Speaker #1
It is pretty cool.
Speaker #0
So I want to talk about your journey because I say a lot of the times our creative purpose is. the midpoint between our greatest joy and our greatest suffering. And it seems like that could be true when it comes to your work. So I wonder if you might walk my creative cuties through how your journey led you to teach on emotional outsourcing, healing and wellness through the lens of feminism.
Speaker #1
Yeah, for sure. Um, also, I love that you call your babies, your cuties.
Speaker #0
I know. I love all of your little terms of endearment. I was like, Oh my gosh, I am like, What did you call me? Like preface? Tender ravioli. Tender ravioli. Yes. I am a tender ravioli. I'm Italian. So that felt very fitting. It's good for my soul.
Speaker #1
Paisan, it's good for your spirit to remember that you have a soft, cheesy center. It's important. Like for realsies.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
Which of course is a perfect segue to why I coined the term emotional outsourcing. Listen, I had all of the habits that are emotional outsourcing, codependent, perfectionist, people-pleasing habit. Would I have called myself any of those things? Can I say bafangulo on this show?
Speaker #0
Oh, for sure.
Speaker #1
In which case, me bafangulo. You know what I'm saying? Because, and for people who don't know, we're cussing in Italian. Listen. It's real. Forget about it. Co-dependent? I'm a modern, independent feminist woman. I don't need a codependent. Get out of here. Unless, I'm sorry, Lauren, is that okay with you? Are you mad at me? Do you still love me? Am I okay? Is it okay? Do you want me to leave? Should we cancel the interview? I'm sorry. Did that piss you off? Oh God, I'm so sorry. I always mess everything up. Right, right. And perfectionism? Excuse me, once again, I'm so far from perfect. Like this one time I got like an 89 on an exam. So.
Speaker #0
God forbid.
Speaker #1
Well, but that's just more evidence that I'm not a perfectionist. So get out of here. And then people pleasing. Do you know, Lauren, how many people are currently displeased with me? At least three, which means not a people pleaser. And I'm being hilarious, but like I'm being a silly goose. But to say I was doing all the things, but none of the terms worked for me. None of the terms encapsulate what I was experiencing. They felt loaded with all this history and all this criticism and this talk of like. defective character, that there was something wrong with me for behaving the way I was behaving. And I wasn't buying it. And so I wanted to come up with another way to talk about how we experience life when we grow up in families where emotions are repressed or where parents are emotionally immature or where folks just don't have the skills to attend and attune to kids the way they need. Even when there's food on the table and a roof over your head and karate classes and ballet and YMCA summer camp and like all the trappings. But your nervous system is not landing solidly in, I am okay being my authentic self. And because we're not fools and because I wasn't a fool, we adopt these habits. But we can't get help for them. We can't come out the other side. And they will continue to impact our creative life, our work life, our relationships, our everything when we can't see ourselves in the definition. So we can't get help that gets us out of it. You know what I'm saying?
Speaker #0
Oh, yeah, I know. I relate to like every word you say. Well, maybe before we go further, can we define what is emotional outsourcing for those that don't know?
Speaker #1
Yeah, I thought you'd never ask. So, um, Emotional outsourcing is my term for our codependent perfectionist and people-pleasing habits. It's an umbrella term that encapsulates them to give us a new entryway. And it's when we chronically and habitually source our sense of the three vital human needs, safety, belonging, and worth from everyone and everything outside of ourselves instead of from within at a great cost to self.
Speaker #0
Tracking, tracking.
Speaker #1
Listen, listen.
Speaker #0
I did have a question about this because growing up Italian, I think that all these things we talk about, like when I first learned about codependency, I'm like, what do you mean? That's just called being alive. Wednesday. Yeah. And I think, you know, I at least notice it in my own culture that this is like a thing that happens, like the enmeshment, the, you know, relying on each other, but to a point where it's probably a little bit unhealthy. And do you find that like certain cultures have this more at the forefront or like it's like normalized in certain cultures more or is it kind of across the board?
Speaker #1
I think it's it's a pan human experience and I think it shows up really differently.
Speaker #0
Yeah,
Speaker #1
because what you're expressing through your Italian lineage is that enmeshed all up in each other's business. The emotions are hot and huge and big and screaming. And like, similarly, I'm Argentine, a lot of that. Someone maybe was like, grew up in like a very waspy environment where there were no feelings, no, no conflict. Everything's fine. Stiff upper lip. Right. Like, just like push it away. It doesn't exist. Suck it up, buttercup. Like that kind of framework. And then at the end of the day, what's the lived experience? How does it show up? in the same emotional outsourcing, right? So it could be a collectivist Asian culture, and I'm making broad swaths generalizations here because that's what we're doing, right? Or an equally enmeshed Latin American culture, right, can lead to us relating to ourself and each other in very similar ways.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
Because if the feelings are huge and screamed at you, there's no room for you to have feelings. And if there's no feelings allowed in the house, there's no room for you to have feelings. So who are you without your emotional experience of self?
Speaker #0
So, okay, because I'm relating to this because I think my husband had a more similar experience to the shut it down, push it down, doesn't exist. And I had more like every feeling is on the table and I'm going to be the one to deal with them and like help counsel my parents. So how might like these two different experiences manifest, but both in emotional outsourcing?
Speaker #1
Yeah, it comes down to authenticity, right? And it comes down to. Is it safe to be you? Do you feel belonging? Right. Humans are pack animals. Our autonomic nervous system is in this profound wiring to source safety from the collective. Right. I just think about it. At the end of the day, we are very small. And don't come at me if you're six foot seven. Compare yourself to a water buffalo or a rhino. Yeah.
Speaker #0
You don't even need to get next to one of those guys.
Speaker #1
Listen, and then you can talk to me. But like, we're small. And so we need each other, right? We need to have each other's backs literally as well as figuratively. And so do we feel belonging in the pack when we are self? Do we feel safe? Do we feel worthy of the love and care of the pack when we are self? Or do we need to step into a false self? So in the repressive environment, when you're super friggin PO'd at your parent, at your sibling, at your cousin, at your whatever. No, that's fine. Thanks. No, it's okay. It's, you know, I had said to please never do that, but you did it. So, yeah, it's fine. Where's self? Where's safety and belonging and worth? It's all leaning on not rocking the apple cart, not upsetting anyone, keeping things appearing copacetic. And same too when we're in that big, the opposite side of that, of the like, all the huge feelings, all the screaming, all the everything. We're so enmeshed in each other's emotional and physical experience that there's no room for you to actually have yours because you're so trained up to like, to manage everyone else, you know?
Speaker #0
Yeah. So, oh, sorry, go ahead.
Speaker #1
No, I mean, I feel like I could. write quite the treatise on this. Like I could go off. So,
Speaker #0
you know, and in the book, there is a great chapter on what is it called? Attachment theory and all the different like styles of like maybe like upbringing that you experienced that could have manifested in a childhood and an adulthood of emotional outsourcing, which people should totally read. But what are some of the symptoms? Like how does this end up manifesting in our adulthood?
Speaker #1
Yeah. All right. You ready? Here we go. So, yeah, feeling responsible for other people's emotions. So you can't relax if someone's upset. Like, did your did your mom ever, like, actually sit on the couch when the family was watching a movie?
Speaker #0
No,
Speaker #1
no. What was she doing? I know she was busy.
Speaker #0
She was working.
Speaker #1
Yeah, she was doing the thing and the thing and the thing and the thing. Oh, I'll be right there. I'll be right there. Enjoy the popcorn sandwiches. Somebody needs to send somebody a tea coffee. Let me just you know what? I'm going to get us a dog that I'm going to walk the dog that I'm going to bathe the dog. and that You know what I mean? Like sitting down? No, no, no. That's for other people. Other people should. You should sit. You should eat. You should rest. But us? No, no, no. The matriarch, the eldest daughter, any daughter, really? No, no, no. Up and at them. Especially if someone's upset. Especially. We have to fix it. There's like this compulsion because it's again, it's tied into safety, belonging and worth. Right. If someone's upset that I maybe am not safe in this pack, I better get all over that and make sure they're comfortable, make sure they're happy, make sure everything's copacetic. We apologize constantly, even when we didn't do anything wrong. We're not even Canadian. We're just trying to keep the peace. Right.
Speaker #0
Yeah. I grew up very close to Canada, so it was a double. Yeah. Right. And Detroit, I could see it from where I lived.
Speaker #1
Yeah. Right on. Yeah. The stories are contagious,
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
Got to watch out. Avoid conflict at all costs, even if it means fibbing. And I'm not going to say lying because we're not meaning to lie. But it's like, I'm fine. Don't worry about it. It's fine. Don't worry about it. I'm like profoundly, deeply disappointed. And my entire heart and soul feels like it's torn in two. But don't worry about it. It's totally fine that you forgot our anniversary for the 12th year in a row or whatever. We fib as well by downplaying our needs, stuffing down our feelings. We don't realize it's being dishonest, but it is a lack of honesty there. We feel resentful and we fall into one of two camps. Again, you and your mister, and I'm not saying you and your mister, but I'm just saying like y'all, either the not expressing it or constantly talking about how resentful you are. Well, with all I've done for you, you can't do this. With all I've suffered for you children, that kind of thing. Taking on the therapist role in every relationship. So romantic, friendship, stranger on the bus, at work, we're like the work mom. Oh, this one's. amazing. I actually have both a PhD and a divorce in this one, taking people on as a fixer-upper. God, was I good at that. Man.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
Because I could see the real potential. And even though they're like, I don't actually want to change in any of the 10 ways you want me to. I knew. I knew, Lauren. I would be the one they would change for.
Speaker #0
Yeah. definitely So my past, I mean, yeah, that was like my 20s. Yeah,
Speaker #1
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure, for sure, for sure. Oh my God, we cannot make a fricking decision to save our lives, right? We have to like ask the entire peanut gallery. And what it comes down to is not trusting ourself because again, we don't know self. Like that capital S self I talk about so much in the book, right? We're not in that self, we're in a false self. And so we're so scared to make a misstep. because we're scared of being kicked out of the pack, that setting a boundary, setting a limit, knowing our own limit, saying no, like the guilt is so overwhelming that we delay decisions until the decision's like just made by default, right? Like, oh, well, the deadline passed. I didn't join the class, you know? And we choose what's easier for others, even if it's inconvenient, it's uncomfortable, it's painful. And often it's because we have We so often grew up with parents or caregivers who were living in emotional outsourcing themselves. And so they had that kind of black and white thinking. And I talk about this in the book, Monkey See, Monkey Do, right? Mirror neurons in the brain teach us to do what our grownups are doing. I mean, it's pretty smart, right? Who else are we going to model ourselves after? And so if they lived in that all or nothing black and white, so we do too. And so we come to make a decision. There's a right and a wrong and we just don't have access to it. And so we're so profoundly scared that we'll pick the wrong and then everything will be destroyed and we'll be abandoned. I mean, coming back to the attachment wound stuff, we don't want to do it. Right. It's too like existentially frightening.
Speaker #0
Yeah. Is this like this is something I've kind of realized over the last year that I've been unwinding this this idea of like there's a right and a wrong and I just don't have access to it. I noticed that no matter what situation I was in, I would blame myself. Like even when there were a million other things at play, like take my career, you know, in when I was pursuing acting when I was younger, it was all my fault. It couldn't possibly have been that I was in a completely unfair industry with wild standards that usually has nothing to do with ability, often has to do with looks and like network connections and nepotism. them. For me, I was like, I have failed and it's all because of me. I just wasn't good enough. Now, maybe, and I didn't try hard enough. Maybe I could have tried a little harder. Like I can take responsibility where it was the case. But I think I gave up on that dream at that time, not because I failed. Because like, number one, I had rebranded disappointment as failure. And number two, I took all the blame and responsibility. instead of giving out everywhere where it was deserved. And is this a common practice of people who are engaging with emotional outsourcing?
Speaker #1
Yes, because if we cannot keep ourself safe, everyone around us is in charge of it because we're not competent enough to be in charge. So they have to be in charge because someone's got to be in charge. And so if we look at them and we say, it was my agent, It was my manager. It was like all these people's fault. they failed me, then again, it's that existential dread. Because if they're not protecting you, who is? No one is. And when the lions come, because it's not if for the human nervous system, when the lions come, who will protect me? And so this is why it's so often so hard for us to get mad at our parents or caregivers, right? And we jump right from... They did all these really painful things, but they were doing the best they could. And what we skip over is putting responsibility where it's due.
Speaker #0
Yeah. I want to talk with you about that because I shared that with my parents because they really were like the most loving people on earth and adore me, like never missed a performance. Even now, I just did a speaking engagement in Vegas. They flew out to see me. Like they're incredible people. And I know both of them, especially my mom, struggled with this. And I picked it up. And I also, you know, we've discussed it a lot, even on this podcast a couple times, but... I definitely acted as therapist to them. Like when I was seven, they went into couples counseling and I said to them, you don't need a counselor. I'll be your counselor. And like, I really thought I could do a better job than the counselor. And honestly, I probably could have. Let's be honest. Hindsight. Hindsight. But, you know, that responsibility shouldn't have been on me as a seven year old. But I struggle with holding, you know, how can I stay compassionate and loving and acknowledge Ciao. all the good my parents did and also see where I was missed or I was put in a position I shouldn't have been. And that's playing out now.
Speaker #1
It's interesting that you're bringing exactly this up because this has been the theme all week in my coaching group is exactly this, is how to hold this duality. And this is the core of acceptance, is accepting that people are complex and don't always do things in... what in hindsight is the most bestest way, and they can still be loving, kind, good people. And there can be a part of you, this is where we can bring internal family systems, Dick Schwartz's work in, there can be a part of you that is super PO'd, that's super angry at them. While your adult self, your whole integrated adult self can understand that This was modeled for them. And it was the model for your grandparents. And it was modeled for your great grandparents and for your great, great grandparents, right? That this is what was survival skills. But it's really important to let ourselves have the anger not to hold onto it, but so that it doesn't fester within, right? So that that emotion can move through the body and be transmuted as it were. can be processed through the body.
Speaker #0
So how do you do that?
Speaker #1
Yeah, I knew that was palmin. Listen, you got a couple, six months. But in all honesty, it is a very annoyingly slow process, right? Especially for those of us who are fast animals, it is a particularly annoying process because it's the process of getting back into your body. being present in your body, and then letting your body guide you to complete the actions, the movement. I'm going to say words and then I'm going to refine them and explain them. Don't worry. Nobody get nervous or get nervous if you want to. It's uncalled for. So there's movement and action potentials that arise in the body when there's a stressor. And if we're not able to complete that stress activation, then that remains in the body. Okay, what the hell did I just say? You're a gazelle. You're running across the Sahara. There's a lion chasing you. You're the slowest gazelle in the pack because you didn't eat your Wheaties this morning. And she catches, and it's the lioness that hunts. Let us just take a moment in celebration. So the lioness catches your stupid little ankle and you're like, damn it, here we go. and you collapse to the ground, and all that sympathetic activation, all that fight or flight, that adrenaline, that norepinephrine, that run, run, run, run, freaking literal lions that is in your body gets shut down as you collapse to the ground. And every gazelle cell in your body is smart enough to look real dead. But I mean, real dead, dorsal collapse in the nervous system. This is the shutdown state, which in humans looks like, wait, what? Sorry, we were just having a fight and I got overwhelmed and I like literally don't know what you were saying or what I was saying. I went dorsal. In a gazelle, it looks like heart rate slowing down, humans too, breathing slowing down, humans too, blood pressure dropping, humans too, getting flooded with opioids, endogenous opioids, humans too, because you're about to be lunch. So what happens to the gazelle? She's lying on the ground. The lion's like, oh, look, she's dead. I did one hell of a job. I'm going to go get the cubs. We got lunch. And she struts off to go get the cubs. The gazelle smells for the lion to not be there. She stands up, shakes her whole body. You know, like when your dog gets out of the water, like, oh, shaky, shaky, shaky, shaky, shaky. And she books it on out of there. That is the stress cycle activating. Damn it, here comes a lion. Getting to its peak of running as fast as a gazelle can and then collapsing into dorsal and then standing up, shaking and running again. So that's that stress activation cycle. fully looped through. You with me so far?
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
You are in the boardroom. You thought you followed the memo exactly. You're actually really proud of this thing you wrote. It looks really good. The slideshow, gorgeous. You finish it and your boss goes, what is this crap? Sympathetic activation. I'm being chased by a lion. What should you do? Scream back and shake your whole body to get it out of you. But what do you actually do? Gosh, Megan, I'm sorry. I really thought I was following the brief. Let me know how I missed the mark on this. But you want a strangler. You want to scream. You want to throw the table, right? Your body has all this activation that needs to leave. It's good to not punch people and not throw tables, but we need to give our bodies the opportunity to process the emotions, the energy, that activation all the way through. You see what I'm saying? So this is my circuitous brain coming back to the initial question, which was, Bea, how do I feel angry at my parents while loving them, while having compassion, care, curiosity for them and what they've gone through? You give your body the space in a lovingly held container to go through that stress activation, to go back. into those moments when they didn't show up, they weren't attuned, when it hurt, when they probably didn't mean to, but they did do whatever and let yourself fully feel the thing so it can move fully through the body. So you can, as it were, get up, shake and run away from the lion. This is the process we do in somatic experiencing. And in that process, the medial frontal cortex which as you know is my favorite part of the brain obviously it's like it's like the archivist of the body in a way and it's also like your watcher like your third eye it's the consciousness that watches you be a consciousness having a conscious experience and so it's also recording how do you treat you when life is lifey and so we let you in this somatic experiencing process. be your own most loving guardian and take tender care of you in the memory of they couldn't show up.
Speaker #0
And what you just described, that whole process of getting angry, like shaking it off and then, you know, running away. Is that somatic experiencing? Like, what does that look like with a person?
Speaker #1
Yeah. You're probably not going to like literally run out of my office, right? But, but yeah, you might visualize. So we understand that the visual cortex, the whole like see visualizing and seeing things in our head, which most people can do, not everyone, most people can do, can actually play a role in changing the way the nervous system works, which is kind of bonkers bananas. But we can, you can't change the memory because you can't change history as far as I know. But we can change the way we relate to self in that moment. And then through a process known as memory reconsolidation, what then becomes the dominant experience in the nervous system is the challenging moment happened. Let's stick with the boardroom one because I think it's less triggering than a childhood one. In somatic experiencing, we would orient and ground you and create like that safer space and container for your nervous system, which is what makes it different than like catharsis, than just like punching a pillow or... screaming into the void out of nowhere, which doesn't really do anything, by the way. We would take you back into that moment in the boardroom and allow you to witness yourself being berated by your boss and then actually changing your response. So letting you visualize and somatically feel it, the sensation in your body of taking a different tack.
Speaker #0
And actually saying, you never give me clear instructions. This is unbelievable. This is so inappropriate. I spent hours on it. Whatever it is, get it out. And picture yourself slamming the table, stomping your feet. And if you want to do it with your physical body, as long as you don't hurt yourself or others, go for it and really let yourself feel that whole process. like walking on eggshells, being all tight and tense around it is able to discharge.
Speaker #1
Wow. So you literally say it out loud. Like you picture yourself in the boardroom saying those things like, you know, moving your arms, kind of getting it out physically as well. And then after that, do you literally have them shake? Am I getting out?
Speaker #0
If that's what's called for. Sometimes it's not shaking. Sometimes it's sobbing. Sometimes it's petting themselves or giving themselves a hug or cooing. You know, it can be a majillion things. But yeah, whatever the body needs, if it's a huge shake, let's do it.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
Is this process how one begins to get on the other side of emotional outsourcing? Or are there many different steps?
Speaker #0
There are so many different steps in the book. The first half is talking about reframing, is moving away from that less loving language of I am a codependent towards emotional outsourcing, right? Because it's a verb. It's not your identity. It's just what you're doing. You can do something different, right? Right. So the first half we talk about that. Like you said, in chapter two, we talk about the neurobiological underpinnings, meaning like how did your nervous What did you see? What happened? How? The hows and the whys. And then in chapter two, we talk about the two branches of remedies, which are somatic body-based and thought work, changing our mindset and the way we think about ourselves and the world. Somatic experiencing is one way to, in a way, fast track it. But there are really important things that we can and it behooves us to do. on our own at home to really begin to reclaim our nervous system. So emotional outsourcing pulls us away from ourselves and makes us meld with the people around us, right? There's like so much role confusion. And you spoke about that, right? Like being seven and feeling like, I need to be the world's best couples therapist. And I can do it.
Speaker #1
Clearly, I'm qualified.
Speaker #0
Clearly.
Speaker #1
I'm perhaps second grade.
Speaker #0
Yeah, for sure. For sure. Right? Yeah. A PhD takes about seven years and you were seven years old. So I don't see why you wouldn't have a PhD by then, right? That's logical math. Yeah. So there's all this role confusion. Who am I? Who are you? How do we relate to each other? What do I need from like all of that? And so Maddox is this beautiful tool to bring us back into the body because before we can shift our behavior, we have to actually feel ourselves as a separate person, right? Because there's that all that enmeshment that we started out our conversation by talking about, right? We're just so enmeshed with the people around us or so separate in this very, I am a rock. I am an island hyper independent way. Right. And so we need to feel ourselves as a separate person that is in connection in that healthy interdependent way. Does that make sense?
Speaker #1
It does make sense.
Speaker #0
Just looking at your face. Yeah.
Speaker #1
Yeah. It makes sense. I think the thing that I... when you talk about black and white thinking that really resonates. And I struggle with that a lot because I'm like, okay, so then do I just like not be in relationship with people? I'm like, how do I make it make sense? Because it's like, if I'm in relationship with people isn't an inherently messy and I can never have it be fully clean. So then why even bother? You know, it's like you spit out just quit now. Of course, like I'm not going to do that. And I love the people in my life dearly, but I do think it's like relationships are just like so messy. And then I think I get into that same thinking of like, well, how can I do it right? How can I do it right? How can I do it right? So help me.
Speaker #0
Okay. On it, on it. I'm here. I'm here. I love you. I'm doing it. Let's go. Let's go. Relationships are, listen, here's the shift. If a relationship is pushing all your buttons, it's because it's touching on your attachment system usually.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
Right. And so the gift that I remind myself and I... I know it's very annoying to call it a gift. I'm fully aware of that, is that it means that if you can stay with it and stay present instead of trying to manage it, is it right? Is it wrong? But stay really present to it on the other side is healing of those attachment wounds. And that's the jam. Like that is seriously the jam because when you're not living from those either avoidant or anxious attachment wounds or, you know, the complex combinations like disorganized. You're not trying. You're not asking anyone else to create your emotional landscape for you.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
And that's so friggin rad.
Speaker #1
I want to ask you because I know you've had your own healing journey, which is what makes. you such an amazing teacher. But when was the moment that that piece started clicking in for you? How did you know you were starting to get to a place where you had a relationship with yourself and you could be in a relationship in a secure way?
Speaker #0
Ah, let me give you two answers and then I'll loop us back to give some really practical hands-on how do we get started.
Speaker #1
Beautiful.
Speaker #0
Great. So I'll start by saying, so as you were asking the question to the first half, when did I feel myself as a person and not feel that anxious attachment to someone else's emotions was when I was in my first abusive marriage. My first marriage, which was abusive. Luckily, I've only had the one abusive one. But I remember this moment. I remember standing in the living room. I can like smell the air and they were throwing this wild. angry temper tantrum. And my whole body was like, this isn't mine to fix. It was like this otherworldly experience of like, I don't have to manage this anymore. I can step away from this in a way that's incredibly healthy and needed to happen for years. So that was this really potent moment of feeling really secure attachment with myself. which is one of the steps into feeling secure attachment with others. I think it's similar of moments now that I'm in a wonderful, amazing, secure relationship where it's actually the same thing but with a different flavor of being like you're having your big feelings and I'm loving
Speaker #1
Because I think I get there sometimes in my relationship, but sometimes I still want to fix things. Like, oh, he's upset. I should help him not feel upset. And it's nothing bad, but it's like, why do I feel responsible when I haven't created it?
Speaker #0
Well, because it's your sourcing safety.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
That's all it is. And so I just remember the part of me that wants to source safety by fixing doesn't understand adults. It understands little kids and like, oh, you're upset. Do you want some ice cream? Okay. I'm not upset anymore. Right. But what I remind myself is that when I negate another adult feeling their feelings, I'm both not doing them any favors. And it's really not loving at the end of the day.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
Because what you're saying is there's something wrong with you having feelings. It's not OK with me if you have feelings. You better cut it out. Even when it sounds like, oh, don't worry about it. There's more fish in the sea. Oh, they're in a better place or oh, don't be angry. I'm sure he didn't mean it that way. What you're saying is your feelings are a problem in this moment. In order for me to continue loving you, you need to stop having them. And I mean, yikes. I don't think any of us are like consciously doing that. Jeez. Don't be a meanie, but it's what we're doing. And I know that what has helped me grow and shift and change is feeling loved, feeling safe, feeling cared about, but not being managed, which can look like, oh, I know this is really upsetting. I can tell you're having a lot of big feelings. I'm at my limit of... processing this right now and I love you. So I'm going to go sit on the couch and have a cup of tea. If you want to take a Leslie Knope break with me, I'm available for that. And I can hold you and pet your little hair while you process it, which is so different.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
How's that landing? Does that seem doable or real?
Speaker #1
Yeah, for sure. I think I'm achieving it sometimes, but I'm like, you know, 50% of the way there, maybe a little bit more. My husband has taught me a lot about this because he actually does have the ability to do what you just said. Like, I will be having like a crying fest over something and he can really just like hold it with me. He has had to teach me how to do that for him. And like, luckily I'm a willing person. Like I like to learn. I love to get better.
Speaker #0
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker #1
So I have been able to learn, like I don't have to fix things actually. Sometimes like holding space is the most loving thing you can do. And so I'm better at it. But I think maybe even more than like stepping in and trying to fix, the tension I'm holding is that I still feel like in my body, I'm doing something wrong. if I'm not fixing.
Speaker #0
That's when I remind that part of me that it actually can't fix. It can't because it's a feeling. The problem is a feeling, which feelings aren't problems and feelings can't be fixed. So it's operating from an old operating system. It's operating from an old story. Let me loop back to my... tool that I recommend. You asked me what's the first place to start to overcome emotional outsourcing. Let's see how this lands and if this feels helpful for that moment. Yeah?
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
Side note, this is my favorite part of my ADHD. It's the kind that can weave all these little threads together in the air. And I can actually see the old conversation sitting here waiting for us.
Speaker #1
That is so cool.
Speaker #0
I love it.
Speaker #1
Yeah. Thank you to your brain.
Speaker #0
Right? Because I will go out. on a tangent, but I always come back. Shout out to brains. If you've got one, like and follow. Yeah. Okay. So here's what we're talking about, right? Actually feeling yourself as self. The more you practice noticing yourself without judgment, the stronger your internal reference are and can again be the center of your own frigging universe, which means that your husband is the center of his universe and your mom and my dad. And so when you can truly feel self as self, you can stay with self even when someone's suffering and you want to leave yourself to take care of them. But of course... We leave self very quickly when we can't feel what that is. You know what I mean? Like if you've never had Thai food and someone's like, taste this. Does this taste like Thai food? You're like, bro, I have no idea what that tastes like.
Speaker #1
You know what I mean? You need the reference point. Yeah,
Speaker #0
I've never used it before. I shall use it many times from now on. Thank you. So, okay. So here's the practice. And I recommend that we set timers on our phone and do this at least three times a day. but it only has to take about six to seven seconds. So like 10 seconds, maybe don't make it a thing. Take a breath, long or slow out. What am I feeling right now? Is there an emotion that I can name? And then it could be a couple. That's fine. Who cares? I feel content. I feel excited because I love nerding about this stuff. I love talking to you. I love your vibe. I love your I'm happy and content and excited. Scan your body. Where is there tension? Where is there E? What sensations are present in the body? Yeah, and so you can do a sort of general scan to just see your baseline. You can also connect them to the happiness. So in general, when I scan my body, there's a little tension right where the bra strap is because I've had a lot of interviews Can you just, why are you doing that? I had a big workout this morning. My traps feel a little tense, but I've been doing this work for so long. I know it's physical and not emotional, which is really nice. And then where's the happiness? Oh, it feels like little kava bubbles, like champagne, but better because it's from Spain in my chest and behind my eyes. And it's like... like bright pink behind my eyes, like a really nice fuchsia, which my mother says, fuchsia, which just always makes me laugh. Es fuchsia. Bella es fuchsia. El color es fuchsia. But it's like a really giggly light energy. And we ask these questions not for the answers. If you get an answer, if you feel a sensation, if you hear a voice, feel a thing, Cool. Bonus points. When you don't, because no one on this side of the mic is expecting you to for days, weeks, months, maybe years, if this is new to you. When you don't get data in return, cool. Nothing's gone wrong, but nothing's gone wrong. We're asking because we're flipping the script in emotional outsourcing. Our attention is on everyone and everything outside of us. So we're picking up a mirror and we're making ourselves our North Star, our reference point. So we're asking to ask, what am I feeling right now? Well, I don't know. Stricken clue. Okay, cool. But I cared enough to ask me because I matter to me. So when he's having big feelings, am I going to leave me to manage them? A little less every day. A little less every day where I am my reference point, not his joy, his happiness, his ease. And so too with getting to know the sensations. And then the third part is if you do get data, which again, no one's expecting, do one small act of self-honoring. So if you feel tension, stretch. If you feel like pent up, shake. If you feel sad or like heavy in your chest, put a hand there, right? Or adjust your posture, get cozier. It doesn't matter. Again, what we're doing is creating an internal worldview where you as you, not a false self, not the good girl, not the good wife, not the good employee. You as you matter to you. The mosty mostest just. How's that Landon?
Speaker #1
It lands great. I mean, I definitely want to relisten to this so that I can absorb it fully, but no, that it is something I try to do even when I'm doing interviews now noticing, oh my God, I'm clenching because I feel like I have to ask the right question, you know? Yeah. And then breathing in and being like, it's okay. You're just talking to someone, whatever is meant to be like, it will be of service to people. And you know, like even that pressure. But the other thing that I love that you talked about in the book and it's the place I'm at right now in my reading is shame. And I notice every time I discuss something like this, every time I admit on the podcast, I'm not perfect, which I do pretty much every episode. I am hit with like a pang of shame because I'm like, I should be better. I should be better, you know? And so as we're talking about this, I'm naming that, I'm noticing it coming up in me. And I wonder if you might just be willing to speak a little bit on the presence of shame for people who are healing from emotional outsourcing and how to start moving past that.
Speaker #0
Shame is, and I'll just define terms. So guilt, especially pro-social guilt is a beautiful thing. It says, I did an oopsie, right? So like, you know, when you're getting on an airplane and you whack someone in the face with your backpack, oh God, I'm so sorry. Oh, geez. So sorry. Pro-social guilt. Great. You'll be more careful next time. Shame takes that guilt, which is just instructions about how to be a kind person in the world, and it attacks your very self, that self that's so tenuous in emotional outsourcing, right? You don't really know who you are, if it's okay that you're like alive or breathing or like existing. And then shame floods in to say, you are unlovable. Behave in the way that is most likely to make these people love you. And so that's how I that's the role I believe shame is playing for us is attempting to want to put us in the good graces of the people around us by keeping us in line. Does that resonate with your experience?
Speaker #1
Yeah. I mean, the interesting thing is I always do think I'm very lovable, but it's more of an idea of like, oh, I'm bad. You know, that's how I look at it.
Speaker #0
Yeah. I guess it's about worth,
Speaker #1
I think so. It's like an idea that like, oh, I should be better. I should be better. I should have this figured out. There is a right answer.
Speaker #0
This is a right answer. Yeah. like a verdict, you're bad and start treating it like a signal. So shame shows up when you've been trained to believe your worth hinges on someone else's comfort, right? And so the way through is to bring that feeling into the body instead of running it through that mental shame spiral. Because like, listen, the more you ruminate, right? The stronger and stronger and stronger teach folks to do is to bring it to the body, meaning... orient your nervous system, which is one of the most important tools, which quite simply means remind the nervous system that there's no lions here. And we do that by literally just looking around the room we're in. And if folks go to my website to BeatriceAlbina.com slash free, F-R-E-E, there's a set of orienting exercises and other nervous system meditations you can download for free there. But so we orient the nervous system when we feel shame, we just look let ourselves ground for a moment and then notice the sensation. So do you know what temperature shame usually has for you?
Speaker #1
Oh, it's hot.
Speaker #0
It's hot. It's hot for me too. Is it squeezing? Is it loose?
Speaker #1
Squeezing.
Speaker #0
Yeah. Is it heavy? Is it light?
Speaker #1
Heavy.
Speaker #0
Yeah. Where is it in your body?
Speaker #1
Chest, gut, throat, shoulders.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
Back.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
My trunk. generally.
Speaker #0
Trunk. Yeah. Can we feel into it now? Is that safe enough to do for a second? Okay. So let yourself be with it. And what do you notice as you're with that shame?
Speaker #1
I want to escape.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
I want to run away and pretend like it's not happening.
Speaker #0
Yeah. Is it safe enough to stay with it, with me here holding you?
Speaker #1
Yes.
Speaker #0
Okay. And if that changes to no, we move on. Yeah? So let your breath widen around it. Let yourself hold some space around it and see if there's a part that needs to be soothed to let yourself stay with the shame. Yeah. If it feels safe enough to ask the shame, what it wants you to know. Um,
Speaker #1
it's saying like, I want you to be good enough.
Speaker #0
Yeah,
Speaker #1
So then people will like you and you'll be safe?
Speaker #0
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it sounds like the shame really loves you, Yeah, yeah. So then I'm curious if there is a part of you that knows that you're already good enough.
Speaker #1
Yeah, definitely.
Speaker #0
Yeah? Where do you find it? Where is it?
Speaker #1
It's also in my chest, but it's like a bright feeling. And it's like in my throat. It's in my hands. expansive and young, actually. It's really young. And it's fun.
Speaker #0
Yeah. Yeah. So what does that part want shame to know?
Speaker #1
You don't have to work so hard. We can play.
Speaker #0
Yeah. Yeah, we can play. Because what does play allow?
Speaker #1
Creativity.
Speaker #0
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Do you feel that shift in your nervous system?
Speaker #1
Yeah. I feel so hopeful. Yeah.
Speaker #0
Yeah. And you look different. Watch the video back. I will. Lighter.
Speaker #1
I feel alive.
Speaker #0
Your eyes look brighter.
Speaker #1
Yeah. I mean, it's interesting. This conversation came at a time. I actually have been feeling like I'm doing really well and on a track. But in the past week, I've been triggered by something that like it's like a work thing and it mirrors a past pain point and trauma. And I've been like in a tailspin for the past week. And honestly, that snapped me out of it.
Speaker #0
Yeah. I mean,
Speaker #1
obviously there's more work to do, but like that's the first time in about a week light behind my eyes, but also lightness and levity in my chest. So.
Speaker #0
Oh, Lauren, that's beautiful.
Speaker #1
Yeah, you're very gifted.
Speaker #0
Oh, thank you. Well, I was about to say, do you see how quickly your nervous system wanted to go there?
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
We don't want to stay in the ouchie. It's just the ouchie is the habit. So we stay because, well, I'm here anyway. But we have the skills and tools within us when we listen in and ask for internal support. Boom. It was right there. It was right there all along, just waiting to hold your little hand.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
Oh, it's tender.
Speaker #1
Yes.
Speaker #0
It's tender.
Speaker #1
Yes.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
I mean, we joked about talking for six hours. I actually could talk to you for six hours.
Speaker #0
We could do a part two. I'll come back. Oh my gosh, really? Okay. I need to do one.
Speaker #1
Perfect.
Speaker #0
Oh my God, I love talking to you. I'll come back.
Speaker #1
I love talking to you too. You're so wonderful. I just... I feel a kinship with you.
Speaker #0
It's mutual. Yeah, for sure.
Speaker #1
But I would be remiss if I didn't ask you about creativity before we wrapped because I can really feel into it and I've shared some of the things that I think engaging in this practice, I don't know if practice is the right word, but engaging in emotional outsourcing affected my creativity, especially when I was younger. What are some ways it could be holding you back from your creativity? And also... What's on the other side when you start healing for your creativity?
Speaker #0
I made the single most heinous crochet project the other day. I can't even begin to tell you how outstandingly horrific this thing is. You know what was really fun at the end? I put it on, I got my photos made going, look at this To send to the woman who made the pattern. And then I took it apart with a smile on my face the whole goddamn time. Because who cares? Who cares? It's a creative outlet. I'm taking strings and making them into things. What am I doing? You know, we'll often like on a weekend morning do watercolors because who cares? Who cares? And that who cares? is very different than the me studying studio art at Oberlin in the 90s who like had to get the design perfect and the font perfect and the perfect, perfect. I had to develop the photo exactly. You know what I mean? That story that perfect exist is it is the murder of creativity, right? It's kryptonite. It stops the entire process because it's no longer about the expression of self. Self is messy. You said relationships are messy? Self is messy.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
And that's the gift. I don't use AI. I don't want to be a robot. I messy, please. Messy, please. Because that's how we are in this human process. I have to make the pretty art and the pretty crochet and the pretty knitting and the pretty poem. And you know what I mean? It's always going to be this external story of what good enough is when it is, when we're trying to measure up to someone else's story. And that's what the core of emotional outsourcing is. You are not the arbiter of your own worth and your own value. So who's going to tell you your art is good? If you don't think yourself is good, right? My art is truly, truly heinous these days. And I'm so glad. I mean, I've been painting these like lopsided watercolor birds on everything that'll sit still. They're truly, I mean, they're a disaster. That's the point. That's the point. You know what I mean?
Speaker #1
Yeah. So it sounds like... An ability to release perfectionism and really become internally motivated.
Speaker #0
It's yes, and presence, because that's the key core thing that's missing in emotional outsourcing, presence and intentionality. Nothing's intentional. It's just default running, running, running. You're like on this treadmill of life instead of making the next choice for And so when you reclaim self, you reclaim your core creativity. Because if not, what are you? You're cookie-cuttering a pattern. And that's great. I mean, I sew as well. Very poor, very, very poorly. And that's fun. But we're talking about something else, that creative drive to make for making sake. Only a self can do it. I love that so much.
Speaker #1
Thank you. Thank you for everything you shared. I mean, because... Oh my gosh,
Speaker #0
it's so fun.
Speaker #1
It's so fun. And the reason... I started this podcast was because I wanted to help people unleash their creativity. And when I first started, I was like, okay, I'm just going to give them all the tools. And then I realized, okay, it's an inside job. And this show really looks at creativity through the lens of healing because that's where I believe it is. And you just gave so many incredible insights into how we can start to do that. And I just thank you for the work you do for who you are and for making
Speaker #0
I have to like go put an envelope in the mail to you with it.
Speaker #1
We'll hang one in my office. I actually have some childhood artwork. Like when you said look around the room, I thought it's my little childhood artwork. So I would love to hang your stuff. This is my room of creativity. I designed it to be like what I would have wanted as a little kid.
Speaker #0
That's awesome.
Speaker #1
Yeah. This is a lip couch.
Speaker #0
That's incredible.
Speaker #1
Thank you.
Speaker #0
I love Well,
Speaker #1
I love you. Thank you for having me. It was a fricking delight. Ah, likewise. Thank you, Bea. Thank you. And you can check out her podcast, Feminist Wellness, wherever you get your shows. I will be on it soon if I haven't already. So definitely subscribe, follow her feed so you do not miss our episode together and all of her other amazing content. Unleash Your Inner Creative is hosted and executive produced by me, Lauren LaGrasso, edited by Blondel Garcon with theme music by Liz Full. Again, thank you, my sweet creative cutie for being here. If you like what you heard today, please share the show with a friend. Podcasts are really spread person to person. Be sure to follow and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify. Leave us a rating and review. Comment on Spotify. All of these things really help the show grow. And if you really like the show, post about it on social media. Tag me at Lauren LaGrasso and at Unleash Your Inner Creative, and I will repost to share my gratitude. My wish for you this week is that you reconnect with a part of yourself you've put aside, whether it's your voice, your needs, or your joy. Welcome it back in. Let that... be the first small step toward coming home to yourself and coming home to your creativity too. I love you and I believe in you. Talk with you next week.

About Unleash Your Inner Creative with Lauren LoGrasso (A Creativity Podcast)

New episodes are out every Wednesday - follow, rate and review wherever you get your podcasts :)

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

About Unleash Your Inner Creative with Lauren LoGrasso (A Creativity Podcast)

New episodes are out every Wednesday - follow, rate and review wherever you get your podcasts :)

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Description

What if the way you learned to love, connect, and succeed wasn’t actually you, but survival strategies you picked up as a kid?

This conversation is especially vulnerable for me. Bea even guides me through a live somatic practice to help release shame, and as you listen, I hope you can do the same.

In this episode, you’ll learn:

If you’ve ever abandoned yourself in order to be “good,” “enough,” or lovable, this episode will help you return to a more empowered, creative version of yourself.

Follow the show: @unleashyourinnercreative

Follow me: @LaurenLoGrasso

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Transcription

Speaker #0
What if the way you learned to love, connect, and succeed wasn't actually your way, but rather survival strategies you picked up as a kid? And what if those same survival strategies are the very thing blocking your creativity, your intuition, and your ability to trust yourself? If you've ever swallowed your feelings, softened your needs, or shapeshifted to fit in, you are not alone. Today is about coming back home to yourself. Because when you remember who you were before the world told you who to be, your creativity and power naturally rise. Welcome to Unleash Your Inner Creative with Lauren LaGrasso. I'm Lauren LaGrasso. I'm a Webby Award-winning podcast host and producer, singer-songwriter, public speaker, and creative coach. And this show is meant to give you tools to love, trust, and know yourself enough to claim your birthright to creativity and pursue your wildest dreams. Today's guest is Beatrice Victoria Albina, aka Bea. She is a somatic experiencing practitioner, master certified somatic life coach, nurse practitioner, and host of the Feminist Wellness Podcast, which I will actually be on soon, or maybe I already have been. I don't know when it's coming out, but make sure you subscribe to it so you don't miss that episode. She also is the author of the amazing book, End Emotional Outsourcing, which I highly recommend and have been loving. Bea helps people, especially people socialized as women, to break free from emotional outsourcing, regulate their nervous systems, and reclaim their joy. And on today's show, she will help you do just that. Honestly, this is one of the most vulnerable episodes I've done in a while. She even walked me through a technique to help me heal my shame and understand what it wanted for me. It made me feel so much lighter. And as I go through it, you can go through it too and do the same for yourself, I'm telling you, it's revolutionary. It helped me so much and I know it will help you too. From this conversation, you'll learn what emotional outsourcing is and why it shows up, how childhood patterns shape your creativity and relationships, how to stop taking responsibility for everybody else's emotions, somatic tools to help you unwind people-pleasing and perfectionism, and why healing your attachment wounds opens the door to your true voice. If you've... ever abandon yourself to achieve what you see as goodness or enoughness, this episode will help you return to your most empowered, creative version of yourself. Okay, now here she is, Beatrice Victoria Albina. I am so excited that you're here. I adore your work. I love how accessible it is. And it makes me feel very seen. So just thank you for the work you do and for who you are in the world.
Speaker #1
Oh, thank you so much. I continue to be extremely humbled when I hear things like that, like in a really good way. You know what I mean? And so thank you. It's wild that I just like sit here and I think things and then I say them into the world and they get to other people's ears. Do you ever have that moment where you're like, whoa, wait a second?
Speaker #0
Yeah. Yeah. It's one of the cool parts of the timeline we live in that we can connect with people like that and share our thoughts. And if we're brave enough to do it, like have an impact. That's so cool.
Speaker #1
It is pretty cool.
Speaker #0
So I want to talk about your journey because I say a lot of the times our creative purpose is. the midpoint between our greatest joy and our greatest suffering. And it seems like that could be true when it comes to your work. So I wonder if you might walk my creative cuties through how your journey led you to teach on emotional outsourcing, healing and wellness through the lens of feminism.
Speaker #1
Yeah, for sure. Um, also, I love that you call your babies, your cuties.
Speaker #0
I know. I love all of your little terms of endearment. I was like, Oh my gosh, I am like, What did you call me? Like preface? Tender ravioli. Tender ravioli. Yes. I am a tender ravioli. I'm Italian. So that felt very fitting. It's good for my soul.
Speaker #1
Paisan, it's good for your spirit to remember that you have a soft, cheesy center. It's important. Like for realsies.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
Which of course is a perfect segue to why I coined the term emotional outsourcing. Listen, I had all of the habits that are emotional outsourcing, codependent, perfectionist, people-pleasing habit. Would I have called myself any of those things? Can I say bafangulo on this show?
Speaker #0
Oh, for sure.
Speaker #1
In which case, me bafangulo. You know what I'm saying? Because, and for people who don't know, we're cussing in Italian. Listen. It's real. Forget about it. Co-dependent? I'm a modern, independent feminist woman. I don't need a codependent. Get out of here. Unless, I'm sorry, Lauren, is that okay with you? Are you mad at me? Do you still love me? Am I okay? Is it okay? Do you want me to leave? Should we cancel the interview? I'm sorry. Did that piss you off? Oh God, I'm so sorry. I always mess everything up. Right, right. And perfectionism? Excuse me, once again, I'm so far from perfect. Like this one time I got like an 89 on an exam. So.
Speaker #0
God forbid.
Speaker #1
Well, but that's just more evidence that I'm not a perfectionist. So get out of here. And then people pleasing. Do you know, Lauren, how many people are currently displeased with me? At least three, which means not a people pleaser. And I'm being hilarious, but like I'm being a silly goose. But to say I was doing all the things, but none of the terms worked for me. None of the terms encapsulate what I was experiencing. They felt loaded with all this history and all this criticism and this talk of like. defective character, that there was something wrong with me for behaving the way I was behaving. And I wasn't buying it. And so I wanted to come up with another way to talk about how we experience life when we grow up in families where emotions are repressed or where parents are emotionally immature or where folks just don't have the skills to attend and attune to kids the way they need. Even when there's food on the table and a roof over your head and karate classes and ballet and YMCA summer camp and like all the trappings. But your nervous system is not landing solidly in, I am okay being my authentic self. And because we're not fools and because I wasn't a fool, we adopt these habits. But we can't get help for them. We can't come out the other side. And they will continue to impact our creative life, our work life, our relationships, our everything when we can't see ourselves in the definition. So we can't get help that gets us out of it. You know what I'm saying?
Speaker #0
Oh, yeah, I know. I relate to like every word you say. Well, maybe before we go further, can we define what is emotional outsourcing for those that don't know?
Speaker #1
Yeah, I thought you'd never ask. So, um, Emotional outsourcing is my term for our codependent perfectionist and people-pleasing habits. It's an umbrella term that encapsulates them to give us a new entryway. And it's when we chronically and habitually source our sense of the three vital human needs, safety, belonging, and worth from everyone and everything outside of ourselves instead of from within at a great cost to self.
Speaker #0
Tracking, tracking.
Speaker #1
Listen, listen.
Speaker #0
I did have a question about this because growing up Italian, I think that all these things we talk about, like when I first learned about codependency, I'm like, what do you mean? That's just called being alive. Wednesday. Yeah. And I think, you know, I at least notice it in my own culture that this is like a thing that happens, like the enmeshment, the, you know, relying on each other, but to a point where it's probably a little bit unhealthy. And do you find that like certain cultures have this more at the forefront or like it's like normalized in certain cultures more or is it kind of across the board?
Speaker #1
I think it's it's a pan human experience and I think it shows up really differently.
Speaker #0
Yeah,
Speaker #1
because what you're expressing through your Italian lineage is that enmeshed all up in each other's business. The emotions are hot and huge and big and screaming. And like, similarly, I'm Argentine, a lot of that. Someone maybe was like, grew up in like a very waspy environment where there were no feelings, no, no conflict. Everything's fine. Stiff upper lip. Right. Like, just like push it away. It doesn't exist. Suck it up, buttercup. Like that kind of framework. And then at the end of the day, what's the lived experience? How does it show up? in the same emotional outsourcing, right? So it could be a collectivist Asian culture, and I'm making broad swaths generalizations here because that's what we're doing, right? Or an equally enmeshed Latin American culture, right, can lead to us relating to ourself and each other in very similar ways.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
Because if the feelings are huge and screamed at you, there's no room for you to have feelings. And if there's no feelings allowed in the house, there's no room for you to have feelings. So who are you without your emotional experience of self?
Speaker #0
So, okay, because I'm relating to this because I think my husband had a more similar experience to the shut it down, push it down, doesn't exist. And I had more like every feeling is on the table and I'm going to be the one to deal with them and like help counsel my parents. So how might like these two different experiences manifest, but both in emotional outsourcing?
Speaker #1
Yeah, it comes down to authenticity, right? And it comes down to. Is it safe to be you? Do you feel belonging? Right. Humans are pack animals. Our autonomic nervous system is in this profound wiring to source safety from the collective. Right. I just think about it. At the end of the day, we are very small. And don't come at me if you're six foot seven. Compare yourself to a water buffalo or a rhino. Yeah.
Speaker #0
You don't even need to get next to one of those guys.
Speaker #1
Listen, and then you can talk to me. But like, we're small. And so we need each other, right? We need to have each other's backs literally as well as figuratively. And so do we feel belonging in the pack when we are self? Do we feel safe? Do we feel worthy of the love and care of the pack when we are self? Or do we need to step into a false self? So in the repressive environment, when you're super friggin PO'd at your parent, at your sibling, at your cousin, at your whatever. No, that's fine. Thanks. No, it's okay. It's, you know, I had said to please never do that, but you did it. So, yeah, it's fine. Where's self? Where's safety and belonging and worth? It's all leaning on not rocking the apple cart, not upsetting anyone, keeping things appearing copacetic. And same too when we're in that big, the opposite side of that, of the like, all the huge feelings, all the screaming, all the everything. We're so enmeshed in each other's emotional and physical experience that there's no room for you to actually have yours because you're so trained up to like, to manage everyone else, you know?
Speaker #0
Yeah. So, oh, sorry, go ahead.
Speaker #1
No, I mean, I feel like I could. write quite the treatise on this. Like I could go off. So,
Speaker #0
you know, and in the book, there is a great chapter on what is it called? Attachment theory and all the different like styles of like maybe like upbringing that you experienced that could have manifested in a childhood and an adulthood of emotional outsourcing, which people should totally read. But what are some of the symptoms? Like how does this end up manifesting in our adulthood?
Speaker #1
Yeah. All right. You ready? Here we go. So, yeah, feeling responsible for other people's emotions. So you can't relax if someone's upset. Like, did your did your mom ever, like, actually sit on the couch when the family was watching a movie?
Speaker #0
No,
Speaker #1
no. What was she doing? I know she was busy.
Speaker #0
She was working.
Speaker #1
Yeah, she was doing the thing and the thing and the thing and the thing. Oh, I'll be right there. I'll be right there. Enjoy the popcorn sandwiches. Somebody needs to send somebody a tea coffee. Let me just you know what? I'm going to get us a dog that I'm going to walk the dog that I'm going to bathe the dog. and that You know what I mean? Like sitting down? No, no, no. That's for other people. Other people should. You should sit. You should eat. You should rest. But us? No, no, no. The matriarch, the eldest daughter, any daughter, really? No, no, no. Up and at them. Especially if someone's upset. Especially. We have to fix it. There's like this compulsion because it's again, it's tied into safety, belonging and worth. Right. If someone's upset that I maybe am not safe in this pack, I better get all over that and make sure they're comfortable, make sure they're happy, make sure everything's copacetic. We apologize constantly, even when we didn't do anything wrong. We're not even Canadian. We're just trying to keep the peace. Right.
Speaker #0
Yeah. I grew up very close to Canada, so it was a double. Yeah. Right. And Detroit, I could see it from where I lived.
Speaker #1
Yeah. Right on. Yeah. The stories are contagious,
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
Got to watch out. Avoid conflict at all costs, even if it means fibbing. And I'm not going to say lying because we're not meaning to lie. But it's like, I'm fine. Don't worry about it. It's fine. Don't worry about it. I'm like profoundly, deeply disappointed. And my entire heart and soul feels like it's torn in two. But don't worry about it. It's totally fine that you forgot our anniversary for the 12th year in a row or whatever. We fib as well by downplaying our needs, stuffing down our feelings. We don't realize it's being dishonest, but it is a lack of honesty there. We feel resentful and we fall into one of two camps. Again, you and your mister, and I'm not saying you and your mister, but I'm just saying like y'all, either the not expressing it or constantly talking about how resentful you are. Well, with all I've done for you, you can't do this. With all I've suffered for you children, that kind of thing. Taking on the therapist role in every relationship. So romantic, friendship, stranger on the bus, at work, we're like the work mom. Oh, this one's. amazing. I actually have both a PhD and a divorce in this one, taking people on as a fixer-upper. God, was I good at that. Man.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
Because I could see the real potential. And even though they're like, I don't actually want to change in any of the 10 ways you want me to. I knew. I knew, Lauren. I would be the one they would change for.
Speaker #0
Yeah. definitely So my past, I mean, yeah, that was like my 20s. Yeah,
Speaker #1
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure, for sure, for sure. Oh my God, we cannot make a fricking decision to save our lives, right? We have to like ask the entire peanut gallery. And what it comes down to is not trusting ourself because again, we don't know self. Like that capital S self I talk about so much in the book, right? We're not in that self, we're in a false self. And so we're so scared to make a misstep. because we're scared of being kicked out of the pack, that setting a boundary, setting a limit, knowing our own limit, saying no, like the guilt is so overwhelming that we delay decisions until the decision's like just made by default, right? Like, oh, well, the deadline passed. I didn't join the class, you know? And we choose what's easier for others, even if it's inconvenient, it's uncomfortable, it's painful. And often it's because we have We so often grew up with parents or caregivers who were living in emotional outsourcing themselves. And so they had that kind of black and white thinking. And I talk about this in the book, Monkey See, Monkey Do, right? Mirror neurons in the brain teach us to do what our grownups are doing. I mean, it's pretty smart, right? Who else are we going to model ourselves after? And so if they lived in that all or nothing black and white, so we do too. And so we come to make a decision. There's a right and a wrong and we just don't have access to it. And so we're so profoundly scared that we'll pick the wrong and then everything will be destroyed and we'll be abandoned. I mean, coming back to the attachment wound stuff, we don't want to do it. Right. It's too like existentially frightening.
Speaker #0
Yeah. Is this like this is something I've kind of realized over the last year that I've been unwinding this this idea of like there's a right and a wrong and I just don't have access to it. I noticed that no matter what situation I was in, I would blame myself. Like even when there were a million other things at play, like take my career, you know, in when I was pursuing acting when I was younger, it was all my fault. It couldn't possibly have been that I was in a completely unfair industry with wild standards that usually has nothing to do with ability, often has to do with looks and like network connections and nepotism. them. For me, I was like, I have failed and it's all because of me. I just wasn't good enough. Now, maybe, and I didn't try hard enough. Maybe I could have tried a little harder. Like I can take responsibility where it was the case. But I think I gave up on that dream at that time, not because I failed. Because like, number one, I had rebranded disappointment as failure. And number two, I took all the blame and responsibility. instead of giving out everywhere where it was deserved. And is this a common practice of people who are engaging with emotional outsourcing?
Speaker #1
Yes, because if we cannot keep ourself safe, everyone around us is in charge of it because we're not competent enough to be in charge. So they have to be in charge because someone's got to be in charge. And so if we look at them and we say, it was my agent, It was my manager. It was like all these people's fault. they failed me, then again, it's that existential dread. Because if they're not protecting you, who is? No one is. And when the lions come, because it's not if for the human nervous system, when the lions come, who will protect me? And so this is why it's so often so hard for us to get mad at our parents or caregivers, right? And we jump right from... They did all these really painful things, but they were doing the best they could. And what we skip over is putting responsibility where it's due.
Speaker #0
Yeah. I want to talk with you about that because I shared that with my parents because they really were like the most loving people on earth and adore me, like never missed a performance. Even now, I just did a speaking engagement in Vegas. They flew out to see me. Like they're incredible people. And I know both of them, especially my mom, struggled with this. And I picked it up. And I also, you know, we've discussed it a lot, even on this podcast a couple times, but... I definitely acted as therapist to them. Like when I was seven, they went into couples counseling and I said to them, you don't need a counselor. I'll be your counselor. And like, I really thought I could do a better job than the counselor. And honestly, I probably could have. Let's be honest. Hindsight. Hindsight. But, you know, that responsibility shouldn't have been on me as a seven year old. But I struggle with holding, you know, how can I stay compassionate and loving and acknowledge Ciao. all the good my parents did and also see where I was missed or I was put in a position I shouldn't have been. And that's playing out now.
Speaker #1
It's interesting that you're bringing exactly this up because this has been the theme all week in my coaching group is exactly this, is how to hold this duality. And this is the core of acceptance, is accepting that people are complex and don't always do things in... what in hindsight is the most bestest way, and they can still be loving, kind, good people. And there can be a part of you, this is where we can bring internal family systems, Dick Schwartz's work in, there can be a part of you that is super PO'd, that's super angry at them. While your adult self, your whole integrated adult self can understand that This was modeled for them. And it was the model for your grandparents. And it was modeled for your great grandparents and for your great, great grandparents, right? That this is what was survival skills. But it's really important to let ourselves have the anger not to hold onto it, but so that it doesn't fester within, right? So that that emotion can move through the body and be transmuted as it were. can be processed through the body.
Speaker #0
So how do you do that?
Speaker #1
Yeah, I knew that was palmin. Listen, you got a couple, six months. But in all honesty, it is a very annoyingly slow process, right? Especially for those of us who are fast animals, it is a particularly annoying process because it's the process of getting back into your body. being present in your body, and then letting your body guide you to complete the actions, the movement. I'm going to say words and then I'm going to refine them and explain them. Don't worry. Nobody get nervous or get nervous if you want to. It's uncalled for. So there's movement and action potentials that arise in the body when there's a stressor. And if we're not able to complete that stress activation, then that remains in the body. Okay, what the hell did I just say? You're a gazelle. You're running across the Sahara. There's a lion chasing you. You're the slowest gazelle in the pack because you didn't eat your Wheaties this morning. And she catches, and it's the lioness that hunts. Let us just take a moment in celebration. So the lioness catches your stupid little ankle and you're like, damn it, here we go. and you collapse to the ground, and all that sympathetic activation, all that fight or flight, that adrenaline, that norepinephrine, that run, run, run, run, freaking literal lions that is in your body gets shut down as you collapse to the ground. And every gazelle cell in your body is smart enough to look real dead. But I mean, real dead, dorsal collapse in the nervous system. This is the shutdown state, which in humans looks like, wait, what? Sorry, we were just having a fight and I got overwhelmed and I like literally don't know what you were saying or what I was saying. I went dorsal. In a gazelle, it looks like heart rate slowing down, humans too, breathing slowing down, humans too, blood pressure dropping, humans too, getting flooded with opioids, endogenous opioids, humans too, because you're about to be lunch. So what happens to the gazelle? She's lying on the ground. The lion's like, oh, look, she's dead. I did one hell of a job. I'm going to go get the cubs. We got lunch. And she struts off to go get the cubs. The gazelle smells for the lion to not be there. She stands up, shakes her whole body. You know, like when your dog gets out of the water, like, oh, shaky, shaky, shaky, shaky, shaky. And she books it on out of there. That is the stress cycle activating. Damn it, here comes a lion. Getting to its peak of running as fast as a gazelle can and then collapsing into dorsal and then standing up, shaking and running again. So that's that stress activation cycle. fully looped through. You with me so far?
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
You are in the boardroom. You thought you followed the memo exactly. You're actually really proud of this thing you wrote. It looks really good. The slideshow, gorgeous. You finish it and your boss goes, what is this crap? Sympathetic activation. I'm being chased by a lion. What should you do? Scream back and shake your whole body to get it out of you. But what do you actually do? Gosh, Megan, I'm sorry. I really thought I was following the brief. Let me know how I missed the mark on this. But you want a strangler. You want to scream. You want to throw the table, right? Your body has all this activation that needs to leave. It's good to not punch people and not throw tables, but we need to give our bodies the opportunity to process the emotions, the energy, that activation all the way through. You see what I'm saying? So this is my circuitous brain coming back to the initial question, which was, Bea, how do I feel angry at my parents while loving them, while having compassion, care, curiosity for them and what they've gone through? You give your body the space in a lovingly held container to go through that stress activation, to go back. into those moments when they didn't show up, they weren't attuned, when it hurt, when they probably didn't mean to, but they did do whatever and let yourself fully feel the thing so it can move fully through the body. So you can, as it were, get up, shake and run away from the lion. This is the process we do in somatic experiencing. And in that process, the medial frontal cortex which as you know is my favorite part of the brain obviously it's like it's like the archivist of the body in a way and it's also like your watcher like your third eye it's the consciousness that watches you be a consciousness having a conscious experience and so it's also recording how do you treat you when life is lifey and so we let you in this somatic experiencing process. be your own most loving guardian and take tender care of you in the memory of they couldn't show up.
Speaker #0
And what you just described, that whole process of getting angry, like shaking it off and then, you know, running away. Is that somatic experiencing? Like, what does that look like with a person?
Speaker #1
Yeah. You're probably not going to like literally run out of my office, right? But, but yeah, you might visualize. So we understand that the visual cortex, the whole like see visualizing and seeing things in our head, which most people can do, not everyone, most people can do, can actually play a role in changing the way the nervous system works, which is kind of bonkers bananas. But we can, you can't change the memory because you can't change history as far as I know. But we can change the way we relate to self in that moment. And then through a process known as memory reconsolidation, what then becomes the dominant experience in the nervous system is the challenging moment happened. Let's stick with the boardroom one because I think it's less triggering than a childhood one. In somatic experiencing, we would orient and ground you and create like that safer space and container for your nervous system, which is what makes it different than like catharsis, than just like punching a pillow or... screaming into the void out of nowhere, which doesn't really do anything, by the way. We would take you back into that moment in the boardroom and allow you to witness yourself being berated by your boss and then actually changing your response. So letting you visualize and somatically feel it, the sensation in your body of taking a different tack.
Speaker #0
And actually saying, you never give me clear instructions. This is unbelievable. This is so inappropriate. I spent hours on it. Whatever it is, get it out. And picture yourself slamming the table, stomping your feet. And if you want to do it with your physical body, as long as you don't hurt yourself or others, go for it and really let yourself feel that whole process. like walking on eggshells, being all tight and tense around it is able to discharge.
Speaker #1
Wow. So you literally say it out loud. Like you picture yourself in the boardroom saying those things like, you know, moving your arms, kind of getting it out physically as well. And then after that, do you literally have them shake? Am I getting out?
Speaker #0
If that's what's called for. Sometimes it's not shaking. Sometimes it's sobbing. Sometimes it's petting themselves or giving themselves a hug or cooing. You know, it can be a majillion things. But yeah, whatever the body needs, if it's a huge shake, let's do it.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
Is this process how one begins to get on the other side of emotional outsourcing? Or are there many different steps?
Speaker #0
There are so many different steps in the book. The first half is talking about reframing, is moving away from that less loving language of I am a codependent towards emotional outsourcing, right? Because it's a verb. It's not your identity. It's just what you're doing. You can do something different, right? Right. So the first half we talk about that. Like you said, in chapter two, we talk about the neurobiological underpinnings, meaning like how did your nervous What did you see? What happened? How? The hows and the whys. And then in chapter two, we talk about the two branches of remedies, which are somatic body-based and thought work, changing our mindset and the way we think about ourselves and the world. Somatic experiencing is one way to, in a way, fast track it. But there are really important things that we can and it behooves us to do. on our own at home to really begin to reclaim our nervous system. So emotional outsourcing pulls us away from ourselves and makes us meld with the people around us, right? There's like so much role confusion. And you spoke about that, right? Like being seven and feeling like, I need to be the world's best couples therapist. And I can do it.
Speaker #1
Clearly, I'm qualified.
Speaker #0
Clearly.
Speaker #1
I'm perhaps second grade.
Speaker #0
Yeah, for sure. For sure. Right? Yeah. A PhD takes about seven years and you were seven years old. So I don't see why you wouldn't have a PhD by then, right? That's logical math. Yeah. So there's all this role confusion. Who am I? Who are you? How do we relate to each other? What do I need from like all of that? And so Maddox is this beautiful tool to bring us back into the body because before we can shift our behavior, we have to actually feel ourselves as a separate person, right? Because there's that all that enmeshment that we started out our conversation by talking about, right? We're just so enmeshed with the people around us or so separate in this very, I am a rock. I am an island hyper independent way. Right. And so we need to feel ourselves as a separate person that is in connection in that healthy interdependent way. Does that make sense?
Speaker #1
It does make sense.
Speaker #0
Just looking at your face. Yeah.
Speaker #1
Yeah. It makes sense. I think the thing that I... when you talk about black and white thinking that really resonates. And I struggle with that a lot because I'm like, okay, so then do I just like not be in relationship with people? I'm like, how do I make it make sense? Because it's like, if I'm in relationship with people isn't an inherently messy and I can never have it be fully clean. So then why even bother? You know, it's like you spit out just quit now. Of course, like I'm not going to do that. And I love the people in my life dearly, but I do think it's like relationships are just like so messy. And then I think I get into that same thinking of like, well, how can I do it right? How can I do it right? How can I do it right? So help me.
Speaker #0
Okay. On it, on it. I'm here. I'm here. I love you. I'm doing it. Let's go. Let's go. Relationships are, listen, here's the shift. If a relationship is pushing all your buttons, it's because it's touching on your attachment system usually.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
Right. And so the gift that I remind myself and I... I know it's very annoying to call it a gift. I'm fully aware of that, is that it means that if you can stay with it and stay present instead of trying to manage it, is it right? Is it wrong? But stay really present to it on the other side is healing of those attachment wounds. And that's the jam. Like that is seriously the jam because when you're not living from those either avoidant or anxious attachment wounds or, you know, the complex combinations like disorganized. You're not trying. You're not asking anyone else to create your emotional landscape for you.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
And that's so friggin rad.
Speaker #1
I want to ask you because I know you've had your own healing journey, which is what makes. you such an amazing teacher. But when was the moment that that piece started clicking in for you? How did you know you were starting to get to a place where you had a relationship with yourself and you could be in a relationship in a secure way?
Speaker #0
Ah, let me give you two answers and then I'll loop us back to give some really practical hands-on how do we get started.
Speaker #1
Beautiful.
Speaker #0
Great. So I'll start by saying, so as you were asking the question to the first half, when did I feel myself as a person and not feel that anxious attachment to someone else's emotions was when I was in my first abusive marriage. My first marriage, which was abusive. Luckily, I've only had the one abusive one. But I remember this moment. I remember standing in the living room. I can like smell the air and they were throwing this wild. angry temper tantrum. And my whole body was like, this isn't mine to fix. It was like this otherworldly experience of like, I don't have to manage this anymore. I can step away from this in a way that's incredibly healthy and needed to happen for years. So that was this really potent moment of feeling really secure attachment with myself. which is one of the steps into feeling secure attachment with others. I think it's similar of moments now that I'm in a wonderful, amazing, secure relationship where it's actually the same thing but with a different flavor of being like you're having your big feelings and I'm loving
Speaker #1
Because I think I get there sometimes in my relationship, but sometimes I still want to fix things. Like, oh, he's upset. I should help him not feel upset. And it's nothing bad, but it's like, why do I feel responsible when I haven't created it?
Speaker #0
Well, because it's your sourcing safety.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
That's all it is. And so I just remember the part of me that wants to source safety by fixing doesn't understand adults. It understands little kids and like, oh, you're upset. Do you want some ice cream? Okay. I'm not upset anymore. Right. But what I remind myself is that when I negate another adult feeling their feelings, I'm both not doing them any favors. And it's really not loving at the end of the day.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
Because what you're saying is there's something wrong with you having feelings. It's not OK with me if you have feelings. You better cut it out. Even when it sounds like, oh, don't worry about it. There's more fish in the sea. Oh, they're in a better place or oh, don't be angry. I'm sure he didn't mean it that way. What you're saying is your feelings are a problem in this moment. In order for me to continue loving you, you need to stop having them. And I mean, yikes. I don't think any of us are like consciously doing that. Jeez. Don't be a meanie, but it's what we're doing. And I know that what has helped me grow and shift and change is feeling loved, feeling safe, feeling cared about, but not being managed, which can look like, oh, I know this is really upsetting. I can tell you're having a lot of big feelings. I'm at my limit of... processing this right now and I love you. So I'm going to go sit on the couch and have a cup of tea. If you want to take a Leslie Knope break with me, I'm available for that. And I can hold you and pet your little hair while you process it, which is so different.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
How's that landing? Does that seem doable or real?
Speaker #1
Yeah, for sure. I think I'm achieving it sometimes, but I'm like, you know, 50% of the way there, maybe a little bit more. My husband has taught me a lot about this because he actually does have the ability to do what you just said. Like, I will be having like a crying fest over something and he can really just like hold it with me. He has had to teach me how to do that for him. And like, luckily I'm a willing person. Like I like to learn. I love to get better.
Speaker #0
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker #1
So I have been able to learn, like I don't have to fix things actually. Sometimes like holding space is the most loving thing you can do. And so I'm better at it. But I think maybe even more than like stepping in and trying to fix, the tension I'm holding is that I still feel like in my body, I'm doing something wrong. if I'm not fixing.
Speaker #0
That's when I remind that part of me that it actually can't fix. It can't because it's a feeling. The problem is a feeling, which feelings aren't problems and feelings can't be fixed. So it's operating from an old operating system. It's operating from an old story. Let me loop back to my... tool that I recommend. You asked me what's the first place to start to overcome emotional outsourcing. Let's see how this lands and if this feels helpful for that moment. Yeah?
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
Side note, this is my favorite part of my ADHD. It's the kind that can weave all these little threads together in the air. And I can actually see the old conversation sitting here waiting for us.
Speaker #1
That is so cool.
Speaker #0
I love it.
Speaker #1
Yeah. Thank you to your brain.
Speaker #0
Right? Because I will go out. on a tangent, but I always come back. Shout out to brains. If you've got one, like and follow. Yeah. Okay. So here's what we're talking about, right? Actually feeling yourself as self. The more you practice noticing yourself without judgment, the stronger your internal reference are and can again be the center of your own frigging universe, which means that your husband is the center of his universe and your mom and my dad. And so when you can truly feel self as self, you can stay with self even when someone's suffering and you want to leave yourself to take care of them. But of course... We leave self very quickly when we can't feel what that is. You know what I mean? Like if you've never had Thai food and someone's like, taste this. Does this taste like Thai food? You're like, bro, I have no idea what that tastes like.
Speaker #1
You know what I mean? You need the reference point. Yeah,
Speaker #0
I've never used it before. I shall use it many times from now on. Thank you. So, okay. So here's the practice. And I recommend that we set timers on our phone and do this at least three times a day. but it only has to take about six to seven seconds. So like 10 seconds, maybe don't make it a thing. Take a breath, long or slow out. What am I feeling right now? Is there an emotion that I can name? And then it could be a couple. That's fine. Who cares? I feel content. I feel excited because I love nerding about this stuff. I love talking to you. I love your vibe. I love your I'm happy and content and excited. Scan your body. Where is there tension? Where is there E? What sensations are present in the body? Yeah, and so you can do a sort of general scan to just see your baseline. You can also connect them to the happiness. So in general, when I scan my body, there's a little tension right where the bra strap is because I've had a lot of interviews Can you just, why are you doing that? I had a big workout this morning. My traps feel a little tense, but I've been doing this work for so long. I know it's physical and not emotional, which is really nice. And then where's the happiness? Oh, it feels like little kava bubbles, like champagne, but better because it's from Spain in my chest and behind my eyes. And it's like... like bright pink behind my eyes, like a really nice fuchsia, which my mother says, fuchsia, which just always makes me laugh. Es fuchsia. Bella es fuchsia. El color es fuchsia. But it's like a really giggly light energy. And we ask these questions not for the answers. If you get an answer, if you feel a sensation, if you hear a voice, feel a thing, Cool. Bonus points. When you don't, because no one on this side of the mic is expecting you to for days, weeks, months, maybe years, if this is new to you. When you don't get data in return, cool. Nothing's gone wrong, but nothing's gone wrong. We're asking because we're flipping the script in emotional outsourcing. Our attention is on everyone and everything outside of us. So we're picking up a mirror and we're making ourselves our North Star, our reference point. So we're asking to ask, what am I feeling right now? Well, I don't know. Stricken clue. Okay, cool. But I cared enough to ask me because I matter to me. So when he's having big feelings, am I going to leave me to manage them? A little less every day. A little less every day where I am my reference point, not his joy, his happiness, his ease. And so too with getting to know the sensations. And then the third part is if you do get data, which again, no one's expecting, do one small act of self-honoring. So if you feel tension, stretch. If you feel like pent up, shake. If you feel sad or like heavy in your chest, put a hand there, right? Or adjust your posture, get cozier. It doesn't matter. Again, what we're doing is creating an internal worldview where you as you, not a false self, not the good girl, not the good wife, not the good employee. You as you matter to you. The mosty mostest just. How's that Landon?
Speaker #1
It lands great. I mean, I definitely want to relisten to this so that I can absorb it fully, but no, that it is something I try to do even when I'm doing interviews now noticing, oh my God, I'm clenching because I feel like I have to ask the right question, you know? Yeah. And then breathing in and being like, it's okay. You're just talking to someone, whatever is meant to be like, it will be of service to people. And you know, like even that pressure. But the other thing that I love that you talked about in the book and it's the place I'm at right now in my reading is shame. And I notice every time I discuss something like this, every time I admit on the podcast, I'm not perfect, which I do pretty much every episode. I am hit with like a pang of shame because I'm like, I should be better. I should be better, you know? And so as we're talking about this, I'm naming that, I'm noticing it coming up in me. And I wonder if you might just be willing to speak a little bit on the presence of shame for people who are healing from emotional outsourcing and how to start moving past that.
Speaker #0
Shame is, and I'll just define terms. So guilt, especially pro-social guilt is a beautiful thing. It says, I did an oopsie, right? So like, you know, when you're getting on an airplane and you whack someone in the face with your backpack, oh God, I'm so sorry. Oh, geez. So sorry. Pro-social guilt. Great. You'll be more careful next time. Shame takes that guilt, which is just instructions about how to be a kind person in the world, and it attacks your very self, that self that's so tenuous in emotional outsourcing, right? You don't really know who you are, if it's okay that you're like alive or breathing or like existing. And then shame floods in to say, you are unlovable. Behave in the way that is most likely to make these people love you. And so that's how I that's the role I believe shame is playing for us is attempting to want to put us in the good graces of the people around us by keeping us in line. Does that resonate with your experience?
Speaker #1
Yeah. I mean, the interesting thing is I always do think I'm very lovable, but it's more of an idea of like, oh, I'm bad. You know, that's how I look at it.
Speaker #0
Yeah. I guess it's about worth,
Speaker #1
I think so. It's like an idea that like, oh, I should be better. I should be better. I should have this figured out. There is a right answer.
Speaker #0
This is a right answer. Yeah. like a verdict, you're bad and start treating it like a signal. So shame shows up when you've been trained to believe your worth hinges on someone else's comfort, right? And so the way through is to bring that feeling into the body instead of running it through that mental shame spiral. Because like, listen, the more you ruminate, right? The stronger and stronger and stronger teach folks to do is to bring it to the body, meaning... orient your nervous system, which is one of the most important tools, which quite simply means remind the nervous system that there's no lions here. And we do that by literally just looking around the room we're in. And if folks go to my website to BeatriceAlbina.com slash free, F-R-E-E, there's a set of orienting exercises and other nervous system meditations you can download for free there. But so we orient the nervous system when we feel shame, we just look let ourselves ground for a moment and then notice the sensation. So do you know what temperature shame usually has for you?
Speaker #1
Oh, it's hot.
Speaker #0
It's hot. It's hot for me too. Is it squeezing? Is it loose?
Speaker #1
Squeezing.
Speaker #0
Yeah. Is it heavy? Is it light?
Speaker #1
Heavy.
Speaker #0
Yeah. Where is it in your body?
Speaker #1
Chest, gut, throat, shoulders.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
Back.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
My trunk. generally.
Speaker #0
Trunk. Yeah. Can we feel into it now? Is that safe enough to do for a second? Okay. So let yourself be with it. And what do you notice as you're with that shame?
Speaker #1
I want to escape.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
I want to run away and pretend like it's not happening.
Speaker #0
Yeah. Is it safe enough to stay with it, with me here holding you?
Speaker #1
Yes.
Speaker #0
Okay. And if that changes to no, we move on. Yeah? So let your breath widen around it. Let yourself hold some space around it and see if there's a part that needs to be soothed to let yourself stay with the shame. Yeah. If it feels safe enough to ask the shame, what it wants you to know. Um,
Speaker #1
it's saying like, I want you to be good enough.
Speaker #0
Yeah,
Speaker #1
So then people will like you and you'll be safe?
Speaker #0
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it sounds like the shame really loves you, Yeah, yeah. So then I'm curious if there is a part of you that knows that you're already good enough.
Speaker #1
Yeah, definitely.
Speaker #0
Yeah? Where do you find it? Where is it?
Speaker #1
It's also in my chest, but it's like a bright feeling. And it's like in my throat. It's in my hands. expansive and young, actually. It's really young. And it's fun.
Speaker #0
Yeah. Yeah. So what does that part want shame to know?
Speaker #1
You don't have to work so hard. We can play.
Speaker #0
Yeah. Yeah, we can play. Because what does play allow?
Speaker #1
Creativity.
Speaker #0
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Do you feel that shift in your nervous system?
Speaker #1
Yeah. I feel so hopeful. Yeah.
Speaker #0
Yeah. And you look different. Watch the video back. I will. Lighter.
Speaker #1
I feel alive.
Speaker #0
Your eyes look brighter.
Speaker #1
Yeah. I mean, it's interesting. This conversation came at a time. I actually have been feeling like I'm doing really well and on a track. But in the past week, I've been triggered by something that like it's like a work thing and it mirrors a past pain point and trauma. And I've been like in a tailspin for the past week. And honestly, that snapped me out of it.
Speaker #0
Yeah. I mean,
Speaker #1
obviously there's more work to do, but like that's the first time in about a week light behind my eyes, but also lightness and levity in my chest. So.
Speaker #0
Oh, Lauren, that's beautiful.
Speaker #1
Yeah, you're very gifted.
Speaker #0
Oh, thank you. Well, I was about to say, do you see how quickly your nervous system wanted to go there?
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
We don't want to stay in the ouchie. It's just the ouchie is the habit. So we stay because, well, I'm here anyway. But we have the skills and tools within us when we listen in and ask for internal support. Boom. It was right there. It was right there all along, just waiting to hold your little hand.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
Oh, it's tender.
Speaker #1
Yes.
Speaker #0
It's tender.
Speaker #1
Yes.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
I mean, we joked about talking for six hours. I actually could talk to you for six hours.
Speaker #0
We could do a part two. I'll come back. Oh my gosh, really? Okay. I need to do one.
Speaker #1
Perfect.
Speaker #0
Oh my God, I love talking to you. I'll come back.
Speaker #1
I love talking to you too. You're so wonderful. I just... I feel a kinship with you.
Speaker #0
It's mutual. Yeah, for sure.
Speaker #1
But I would be remiss if I didn't ask you about creativity before we wrapped because I can really feel into it and I've shared some of the things that I think engaging in this practice, I don't know if practice is the right word, but engaging in emotional outsourcing affected my creativity, especially when I was younger. What are some ways it could be holding you back from your creativity? And also... What's on the other side when you start healing for your creativity?
Speaker #0
I made the single most heinous crochet project the other day. I can't even begin to tell you how outstandingly horrific this thing is. You know what was really fun at the end? I put it on, I got my photos made going, look at this To send to the woman who made the pattern. And then I took it apart with a smile on my face the whole goddamn time. Because who cares? Who cares? It's a creative outlet. I'm taking strings and making them into things. What am I doing? You know, we'll often like on a weekend morning do watercolors because who cares? Who cares? And that who cares? is very different than the me studying studio art at Oberlin in the 90s who like had to get the design perfect and the font perfect and the perfect, perfect. I had to develop the photo exactly. You know what I mean? That story that perfect exist is it is the murder of creativity, right? It's kryptonite. It stops the entire process because it's no longer about the expression of self. Self is messy. You said relationships are messy? Self is messy.
Speaker #1
Yeah.
Speaker #0
And that's the gift. I don't use AI. I don't want to be a robot. I messy, please. Messy, please. Because that's how we are in this human process. I have to make the pretty art and the pretty crochet and the pretty knitting and the pretty poem. And you know what I mean? It's always going to be this external story of what good enough is when it is, when we're trying to measure up to someone else's story. And that's what the core of emotional outsourcing is. You are not the arbiter of your own worth and your own value. So who's going to tell you your art is good? If you don't think yourself is good, right? My art is truly, truly heinous these days. And I'm so glad. I mean, I've been painting these like lopsided watercolor birds on everything that'll sit still. They're truly, I mean, they're a disaster. That's the point. That's the point. You know what I mean?
Speaker #1
Yeah. So it sounds like... An ability to release perfectionism and really become internally motivated.
Speaker #0
It's yes, and presence, because that's the key core thing that's missing in emotional outsourcing, presence and intentionality. Nothing's intentional. It's just default running, running, running. You're like on this treadmill of life instead of making the next choice for And so when you reclaim self, you reclaim your core creativity. Because if not, what are you? You're cookie-cuttering a pattern. And that's great. I mean, I sew as well. Very poor, very, very poorly. And that's fun. But we're talking about something else, that creative drive to make for making sake. Only a self can do it. I love that so much.
Speaker #1
Thank you. Thank you for everything you shared. I mean, because... Oh my gosh,
Speaker #0
it's so fun.
Speaker #1
It's so fun. And the reason... I started this podcast was because I wanted to help people unleash their creativity. And when I first started, I was like, okay, I'm just going to give them all the tools. And then I realized, okay, it's an inside job. And this show really looks at creativity through the lens of healing because that's where I believe it is. And you just gave so many incredible insights into how we can start to do that. And I just thank you for the work you do for who you are and for making
Speaker #0
I have to like go put an envelope in the mail to you with it.
Speaker #1
We'll hang one in my office. I actually have some childhood artwork. Like when you said look around the room, I thought it's my little childhood artwork. So I would love to hang your stuff. This is my room of creativity. I designed it to be like what I would have wanted as a little kid.
Speaker #0
That's awesome.
Speaker #1
Yeah. This is a lip couch.
Speaker #0
That's incredible.
Speaker #1
Thank you.
Speaker #0
I love Well,
Speaker #1
I love you. Thank you for having me. It was a fricking delight. Ah, likewise. Thank you, Bea. Thank you. And you can check out her podcast, Feminist Wellness, wherever you get your shows. I will be on it soon if I haven't already. So definitely subscribe, follow her feed so you do not miss our episode together and all of her other amazing content. Unleash Your Inner Creative is hosted and executive produced by me, Lauren LaGrasso, edited by Blondel Garcon with theme music by Liz Full. Again, thank you, my sweet creative cutie for being here. If you like what you heard today, please share the show with a friend. Podcasts are really spread person to person. Be sure to follow and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify. Leave us a rating and review. Comment on Spotify. All of these things really help the show grow. And if you really like the show, post about it on social media. Tag me at Lauren LaGrasso and at Unleash Your Inner Creative, and I will repost to share my gratitude. My wish for you this week is that you reconnect with a part of yourself you've put aside, whether it's your voice, your needs, or your joy. Welcome it back in. Let that... be the first small step toward coming home to yourself and coming home to your creativity too. I love you and I believe in you. Talk with you next week.

About Unleash Your Inner Creative with Lauren LoGrasso (A Creativity Podcast)

New episodes are out every Wednesday - follow, rate and review wherever you get your podcasts :)

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

About Unleash Your Inner Creative with Lauren LoGrasso (A Creativity Podcast)

New episodes are out every Wednesday - follow, rate and review wherever you get your podcasts :)

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

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