Transcription

• Speaker #0

  What if the story we've been telling artists and creatives is all wrong? What if you don't actually have to choose between financial stability and the thing you love the most? What if the real problem isn't your ambition, but the outdated advice that says, if you can do anything else, do that instead? Today's conversation is for every actor, performer, artist, and creative who has ever felt boxed into a false choice between survival and passion. I'm joined by Sarah Kleist, an actor turned entrepreneur who has built a thriving creative business without walking away from her artistic identity. Sarah lives in New York City and helps creatives build websites and brands and works as a professional musical theater performer. She's an advocate and expert for creatives who want careers that are both artistically fulfilling and financially sustainable. In this episode, we talk about why the starving artist trope is not just outdated and honestly inaccurate. but also harmful. We break down why performers already have some of the most valuable skills in the world and how to use them in business, how artistry and entrepreneurship strengthens each other, and why being a multi-passionate is not a weakness, but a strategic advantage and honestly, a necessity in today's world. We also explore identity, money stories, fear, self-worth, and how building financial stability can actually bring you more joy, freedom, them. and ease into your creative work and make you a better artist, creative entrepreneur, what have you. If you've ever felt like you were failing because you wanted both meaning and financial stability,

• Speaker #1

  this conversation is going to validate that feeling and energize you to build your creative business. Okay, let's get into it. Here is Sarah Kleist.

• Speaker #0

  So. Sarah, I'm so excited to have you on the podcast. This is such a vital conversation. I feel like it's coming at exactly the right time where the consciousness feels like it's shifting right now around artists. So thank you for being here and for being a thought leader in the space.

• Speaker #1

  Oh my God, thank you. I feel like all of the places I've been in my life have led me to this conversation specifically because when we were chatting about everything before I was like, yes, and this and this and this. So it just feels like the kind of thing that I can just rattle off about. So I'm excited to do that.

• Speaker #0

  A hundred percent. And I want to start at the beginning of my thoughts with you in this area, which was when I saw that thread. And is it okay with you if I read the thread?

• Speaker #1

  Yes, please.

• Speaker #0

  Okay, great. So Sarah wrote this super profound thread that like blew me away. And I instantly wrote her. I'm like, I'd love to have you on my podcast. So here's what got this conversation going. She said, I wish all actors actors, and performers, and any other professional Ausha knew that they don't have to choose between financial stability and their passion. I see so many people hanging up the towel on their dreams, not because they want to, but because they've internalized the very toxic advice that all young performers hear from teachers in college. If you see yourself doing anything else, do that instead. But instead isn't the only option. Number one, there has never been a better time to monetize a creative skill set online. Number two, actors and performers have the strongest work ethic of any and highest resilience of any creative industry. Fight me on this. I'll win. Totally cosign. Number three, we are some of the most adaptable, intuitive, caring, resourceful and charming people on the planet. Don't let these people tell you that chasing your dreams and financial stability are mutually exclusive because that's fake. I am impassioned. So this. started me wanting to talk to you because I am also impassioned about this. And today, I want to chat with you about the power of being a multi-passionate creative and why you don't have to choose between financial stability and your creative dreams. So I feel like one of the best ways into this story is to share your personal story of how you came to realize this. So I wonder if you would share your journey into what you do today.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. Okay. So, um... Long story short, I came, I live in New York City. I moved here to do musical theater, moved here for college, went to a two-year conservatory, studied that. And then after graduating, of course, as all young actors and artists do, you have to find your survival job. So I started working at a restaurant, which I worked at for six years. And honestly, as far as restaurant jobs go, it was like a pretty good one. They were like pretty flexible with me. And... And the staff, we were all like really good friends. Like it honestly, like I looking back on that era, I'm like, you know what, that actually wasn't so bad either. However, I knew in my early 20s that that wasn't going to be a sustainable solution for the rest of my life. And especially as you like get older and you enter your mid 20s or your late 20s, you start to be like, okay, like. I'm auditioning. I'm, you know, definitely building a career. I was doing shows. I was, you know, getting to do some artistic things when people would let me, but it is famously a very competitive career. So what? I literally, um, so I was like, okay, I need to find something that would allow me to continue to pursue this because I, another thing about me, I am a very I'm a Taurus, which I'm very stubborn. I'm stuck down this. I have Taurus MB.

• Speaker #0

  I'm dead why wait because you're all so successful like I don't know any tourist that isn't successful in some way like that's so funny you're just also like so solid like if you say you're gonna do something you do it love that you love luxury like I pray that I have a tourist child someday because I know they will help me get my shit together

• Speaker #1

  I'm dead wait what are you

• Speaker #0

  Aquarius okay I love you Aquarius too but like I just I'm

• Speaker #1

  had tourists somewhere in my big three okay yeah i feel that yeah yeah well thank you i love being a tourist honestly but um with that i'm extremely stubborn and when i set my mind on something i'm going to do it so like quitting theater was never going to be an option um but i you know with that like you just said love luxury knew that i wanted to be financially stable um value stability among above most other things quite honestly Okay. um so I was like I need to find something as well and um I think I was lucky in that I was in my like early to mid-20s around like the 2016 like millennial girl boss like era and so I think that made me um there was a lot of downsides to that era of course but one of the things that I liked about it was that it felt very empowering for people to start creating their own And... like hustles essentially, even though we did, we did have to do some deconstructing of the, the hustle culture of that time period. Um, but, with that, I think I realized that there were other paths to other things that you could do. Um, and it didn't quite crystallize for me until the pandemic when everything shut down, my restaurant shut down, Broadway shut down, basically my whole life and everyone's lives were on pause. And, um, I just was really bored in my bedroom on unemployment. And I was like, what can I do to like pass the time instead of doom scroll, because I just can't, I'm not someone who can just sit there and do that. So I started helping my friends with their websites. And it kind of snowballed into a whole thing. And like, I literally did three completely free websites for friends, like literally just their actor sites. And it was because I liked doing my own website and like I feel like I always had an aesthetic eye for that kind of thing. And then I did three for three of my friends. And then they published those posted about them on Instagram or Facebook or wherever we were at the time. And other people started reaching out being like, wait, can you do mine? How much do you charge? And I literally was like, I don't know how much you charge. Like I made up a number like it was.

• Speaker #0

  Isn't that fun?

• Speaker #1

  Yes. And then I was like, wait, this is kind of fun. And now here I am almost six years later with a whole ass business doing this. And yeah, the rest is history.

• Speaker #0

  So amazing. So many things to break down from what you said. One thing I do want to point out, and I, you know, this is taking a little bit of a sidestep, but I actually worked on Girl Boss Radio back in the day. Like I produced the Sophia Amoruso show. Yes, there have been criticisms and some of them I think are like valid to look at. But I don't think we can underestimate how important that era was for young women. That was the first time in my life that I realized, oh, my gosh, I can be an entrepreneur. Like no one had ever empowered me like that. Certainly not coming from an arts background. I thought my only option was to get a survival job and then hope that my acting or music career would take off. So that was so crucial for me. And I know. millions of other women out there. And I think that a lot of times when like there is backlash to anything, we think we have to throw away the baby with the bathwater, but it's really important to like hold up the power of what that era and that movement did for young women entrepreneurs. So I appreciate you pointing that out. And then the second thing I wanted to say is, as you were like moving into this, did you have any thought of like, oh no, if I do this, am I still an actor? Like, how did you deal with that? Um, what's the word I'm looking for? Tension. How did you deal with that tension within yourself?

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. Okay. So this is interesting because that's definitely a sentiment I hear from like a lot of actors. And I think it's because like when I was working in the restaurant, I was working in a restaurant full time and still auditioning and stuff. And so to me, like I always saw it as like, I'm just replacing the hours that I would have been spending at the restaurant. So like, what does it matter if I'm designing a website and building a business over here, if it's going to be the same amount of time as I would be serving tables? You know what I mean? So to me, like the logic of like, you can't hold multiple identities never made sense because I'm like, I already, most of us already are holding multiple identities, whether it's like you running your own business or you nannying or you. doing your fitness instructing or whatever it is that like actors usually find themselves doing. Yeah. So basically, if you have an issue like that, phone a tourist friend because they will give you the most logical answer. No, it's true, though.

• Speaker #0

  I used to say that to, you know, a friend of mine, like he had a master's degree. And I was like, you do not have to because it was once I had discovered podcasting and radio and that this was a talent I had that I could also monetize. I was like, you do not have to be broke. Like, I don't understand why you're working part time jobs on the chance that you might get an audition. Like You can still go on an audition if you have a good job. Like I, it made my brain break, but also I have compassion for it because I was once there. One other thing I want to go back to and something that you just said was when the world shut down, Broadway shut down. I actually think that moment was a healthy moment for a lot of us because we literally couldn't do the thing that we were told, like, you have to do this. If you don't do this, you're not a real actor. You're not a real performer, whatever it is. And so you had to learn to gain your identity from within more so than outsourcing it to these things that you do, even if they are your passion. Does that resonate with you at all?

• Speaker #1

  Yes, 100 percent. And actually, I do think that going on this like entrepreneurial journey has helped me realize that I actually am a much more balanced person when I don't place my entire identity in my acting career. and actually like I require other identities because if I just have that one, then I'm placing my entire self-worth and confidence into that one area, which I also don't think is healthy.

• Speaker #0

  How has your life improved for the better since you've become a multi-passionate creative?

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. Well, I think, oh my God, like, do you have an hour? Well, we have an hour. Go for it. um obviously like i have financial stability now in a way that i feel like very comfortable with i can like actually funnel money towards my acting career in a way that i couldn't before um and invest in myself in that way but also like i when i walk into an audition room now i bring a sense of ease because on the other side of my life i am someone that people trust and consult and pay money to rework their entire business and value and creatively respect. And so I bring that energy now into any audition, any theatrical space that I'm a part of as well. So I feel those are like the two big ones, but there's many more. Yeah. I mean,

• Speaker #0

  I think just that one piece of like taking away the desperation aspect, because I definitely had that when I was pursuing acting when I was younger, it was like, oh my God, if I don't get this audition, if I don't get this job, then I'm not good. And now it's like, first of all, I no longer believe my worth is in what I do in the world and how I'm received. But second of all, like I have a lot of different things that fill up my life and it just, it takes the tension out and brings the joy back to your creativity.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. And it's also like, anytime I enter an auditioning space now, I'm I know that genuinely, if I don't book the job, which oftentimes I don't because it's so rare to book anything in this particular climate, I feel like I'm not upset because I know that what I will be doing instead, whenever that contract is taking place, is something that I'm also excited about and also fuels me in a different way. So I am very empowered by the idea that I have built. a life that is specifically designed that no matter what I'm doing, I will be excited and creatively fulfilled in some way.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. And I want to go back to the thing you said in your, in your, I almost said tweet, in your thread where you said, we need to stop telling this story. If you could do anything else, do it. Why do you think we need to stop telling that story? And Like, why is it so particularly toxic?

• Speaker #1

  I think because to me, it's so clear with like, there's a million actors now. There's like a million, especially, well, musical theater programs, because that's the world I hail from. But like theater programs in general, there's like every college has like a new acting program now, more so than even when I was going to college. And then more so even from maybe the 10 years before that, there's so many people moving to New York. constantly moving to LA constantly pursuing this constantly. And then you also have a lot of people who like, didn't go to acting school who are pursuing it, which I also think is possible, but like, it's like, you know, um, a whole other like slew of human beings trying to do it there's just so many people and then the jobs are dwindling so i don't think like when people say like oh you you um if you can see yourself doing anything else you should do that instead i'm like no you

• Speaker #0

  have to do something else too like you literally have to so that's a better story we need to start telling like do acting or do whatever your creative dream is and you also do something else so all the pressure isn't on that and you can have financial stability. Because like, you know, I don't know if we talked about this because we did a little pre-call before we had this conversation. And that saying like jack of all trades, master of none, it's actually a longer saying. And like, it's so funny that that has been used to shame people out of being multi-passionate creatives all these years, because the saying was jack of all trades, master of none, but oftentimes better than master of one. And the reason is because like. It was saying exactly what we're talking about right now. Basically, like back in the day, if you entered a new village and you were just a tailor and they already had a tailor, you had no way to make money. But if you were a tailor and a blacksmith and they didn't have a blacksmith, cha-ching, cha-ching, now you can support your family. It's still true today.

• Speaker #1

  Quite literally. It is still true. And I feel like the skills transfer all the time. Like, I like, of course, as a. as an actor, there's so many things that I bring to my design work that I think makes me stand out as a designer and is one of the is many of the reasons that I have become so successful in that sort of side of my life. But also as a designer, there's so many things I've learned about business and how people function and how people respond to things that I absolutely bring into the audition room or I bring into like my actor materials or I bring into the way that I submit for a project if I'm emailing a casting director. Like there's so many. on both ends, like ways that I have figured out, like little tricks and things that you just learn from from both sides.

• Speaker #0

  Can you give an example in each sector? Like how has being an actor made you a better designer? How has being a designer made you a better actor?

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. Okay. Well, as as a designer, I feel like I there's an inherent, like storytelling ability that is more performance-based. I actually always... make this joke that theater and marketing are the same skill in different fonts. Like it is literally like, it is the same thing. But I think it's funny because I used to, um, back in like 2020, 2021, when I was first starting my business, I was part of all these like Facebook groups of like, like marketing, like women in marketing, whatever. And like, people would like be in there posting. And I would see so many people posting in there being like, I just graduated my marketing program from XYZ College and like um, you know, I do this and this and this, but I'm like really having trouble with the storytelling aspect. Like I don't understand, like when people say storytelling, what do they mean? And I was like, what do you mean? What is storytelling? Like that is so inherent to my DNA. Like as an actor, you don't realize like how inherent to your DNA that is and how helpful like those skills can be on social media, on in, in business, just in general, in copywriting, in designing in... figuring out your um sort of like brand visuals like there's so many things that contribute to that so that's like the main thing on the design side that i'm always like this is like an inherent skill learned from years of like community and high school and college theater and regional theater and all these things that is just so um helpful and then on the actor side I think I just understand now, like when I see a breakdown or I see like a production that I'm interested in or something, I'm I'm I definitely look at it more from a business perspective. Now, like I think I used to be so frustrated as a young actor being like, well, like, why don't they just give like. young talented people a chance why do they always have to hire stars and celebrities and whatever and like now i'm like oh because it's like a dying art form and they like need to fill the seats and like obviously they have a bottom line so like i feel like i can zoom out and see the industry for what it is and then know strategically know my place within it based on like yes of course i'm gonna like reach for the stars and like audition and try to audition for the things that i want to be in but i also um And. more often now I'm like no I would be like a perfect standby for that because I know you're going to cast a celebrity as the lead like you know like yeah little things that I can sort of zoom out and be like oh from a business perspective I see what's happening so I'm actually going to make the more strategic choice and submit myself for xyz

• Speaker #0

  because I know what you're going to do on the on the top end there so smart and it also it like first of all it makes you more effective at where to put your energy. Second of all, it... I think that that has been the greatest takeaway for me since I've been working in the business sector is that. Acting, all of these are a business. Like I didn't get it. To me, it was like, this is my dream. And how could they not see that this is my dream and my passion? And at the same time, that made me accept things that were like way beneath what I believe I'm capable of or like deserve in the world, like doing a ton of free work, even like past the point of like when it was joyful for me, because I was like looking at it as just a dream and a vocation and not a business. So not only does it help you like depersonalize, like when they make a choice, like hiring a celebrity instead of like looking at a fresh face talent, it also helps you not feel so like, oh my gosh, I better just give them everything I have because this is my dream. Like, yes, it can still be your dream and you still deserve to get paid.

• Speaker #1

  Yes, 100%. And also like going off of that, like I, every time I end up booking a show and getting to do a theater project, like because I have this other business side of my life, I always lose money on it every single time because no matter what, there's always like for theater, there's just not ever going to be enough money to, to sustain like what you could be earning in a business at a certain point. Um, however, I now, because I understand how like my business works and the financial like flow of my life, I get to make those choices and intentionally say like, okay, I'm going to do this show. Yes, I'm going to personally lose money doing this show. But when I'm on my deathbed at 85, looking back on my life, I'm going to be so thrilled that I got to do my dream show in this amazing place with these amazing people. So like, yeah, all of it is like making being able to make strategic choices for your joy level, for your like. wanting to look back on your life and feel proud of it and also keeping yourself financially afloat is definitely something that I've learned over the past five years or so.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. It's so good. It's so good. It really does give you a greater level of flexibility. And something you said earlier is having a business or having some sort of work that you do that is still creative, that feeds your soul and pays you very well, actually allows you to be your own investor. when it comes to your creativity or your art. So it's so beautiful. I also want to go into another trope. We discussed if you can do anything else, do it. How about the trope of the starving artist? Just tell me your thoughts on this. And again, I think that this is so toxic and people romanticize it, but I don't think it's romantic at all. I think it's really harmful.

• Speaker #1

  Yes. I mean, absolutely. I feel like I don't even know how an artist would be able to be starving now. Like I, if... When I think back to like how the economy was, at least in New York City, when I moved here in 2012, I think it's a way different place than it is now in 2025. I now because of how expensive things are, I like actually don't think it's possible to be one. And I think that you mean by that,

• Speaker #0

  like, so you mean that like you don't think somebody could just be scraping by because it's far too expensive to do. Yeah,

• Speaker #1

  because I think in order to meet your even... basic needs here now it's like to me i'm like well then that's that's not starving like you have to like like it's so much more expensive now than i think it even was um but also so much of a artistic or creative career as an artist requires investment um which i don't think people necessarily realize. Like, I think a lot of people go to their college program and then, of course, they spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on their college program. And then they move to their city of choice and they get here and they're like, great, I'm just going to start auditioning, whatever. And it's like, yeah, but like probably every couple of years, especially as you're like learning who you are as a person, you're going to need new headshots. You're probably going to have to like continue to take class. You're probably going to have to, you know. go make videos of yourself either singing or doing monologues or doing scenes or whatever in like a nice well-lit studio with like good lights and if you don't have that in your apartment then like you either need to get it or like go to a place to rent out some space for an hour to like make that like every single step of the way it requires like materials and like investment and even like community like you have to go to events and like meet people and like go for lack of a better term network and like go to shows and see what is happening. And all of that just requires so much money. Like, I'm like, how how does one even be a starving artist anymore? Like it all is dollars.

• Speaker #0

  That's a great point. And yet this is still like a concept that is peddled, you know, and that some people think is romantic. And so I don't know, like, as I was sitting here prepping for our interview, I'm like, is this all a conspiracy? Because the idea that like artists shouldn't be paid or artists should be kept starving or small, It's like the people who are most capable of moving humanity forward, if we can keep them broke and struggling, they won't disturb the establishment.

• Speaker #1

  Wow. Mic drop. Yes. Correct. Exactly. And also, I think, like, again, this goes back to, like, I think a lot of actors and artists, like, find a lot of moral high ground sometimes in being like the starving, broke people. But I also deeply believe that If you put money in the hands of good people, they will use it on good things. And so it's not like wrong to want to be more financially stable, because if you are a good person who wants to use it for good things and to further good messages in the world, it can only make the world better.

• Speaker #0

  100% cosign. I mean, we've seen what happens when bad people have money. Why don't we just try it? Let's see what happens. If good people have the money and spread it out, let's see if it makes the world a better place. I think it will, because at the end of the day, money is energy. And so if there's good energy behind that energy, it will expand. But Taurus Queen, can you please speak to the people for those that are out there and being like, well, I can't have money because that will make me a bad, greedy person. How can they rewrite their money story so that they can start to see that they can go out there, have a creative exploit or business that could create wealth and use it in a way that is moving humanity forward?

• Speaker #1

  Mm hmm. Well, first things first, I feel like a huge like mental unlock for me was when I started paying attention to how I talk about money. So even if I like go to the corner store and like get a soda, if I'm like mad that it's $2 instead of $1.75, like I would notice that and be like, okay, well, regardless, it's $2. Like, am I going to buy it or not? Like, basically, like, why am I creating a whole narrative around this? So... That's one thing. Pay attention to how you're considering money just in your everyday transactions in life. But then also the other thing is get out of your artistic box in terms of what things cost. So, for example, when I was just starting my business, I was pricing it super low. One, because I was new at it. So like that's only fair. But two, because I there were a lot of other like actor web designers who. already had businesses, but we're also pricing it super low because they were like in the acting world and they like wanted to make things super accessible to other actors, which I get. I totally understand. However, I probably a year or a year and a half into my web design business, I like happened upon a whole other corner of the internet with like all these other web designers. I saw they were charging like 4,000, 5,000, 6,000 for like a website. And I was like, holy shit, people charge that for a website like I had no concept that that was even possible and then I realized oh that's what most web designers are charging like at least at least that's like the lower end so like I it took getting out of my own artistic community to to realize what like regular muggle people are charging for like regular services Thanks. No. So realizing like how things actually are priced in the real world versus like just the actor world, which is so different.

• Speaker #0

  Oh, my gosh. I couldn't relate to you more, Sarah. And I think so many people listening will feel that because if you've ever struggled, which we both have, you remember when you were struggling and you want to be somebody who could have been a service provider to you, that version of you. However, like. What's fair is fair. And at some point you're going to start to feel depleted if you're consistently giving more energy than you're getting back. And again, money is energy. And it really does take like you have to go outside of yourself and outside of your sphere, as Sarah is saying, and look at what are the other prices out there. And am I charging something that is worth the value that I'm bringing? Yeah. Here's the other thing one of my mentors said to me for people who like still might struggle with this. You charge what you're due to everybody who can afford it so that you can do projects for people who can't afford it so that you can do some pro bono work so that you can do some discounted work for the actors who are in the place you're in when you first move to wherever you move to. But you have to absolutely charge what you're worth most of the time. And your soul will know when it's the right time to do something low pro bono or lower.

• Speaker #1

  Yes. A hundred million percent. Cosign that with my entire body. And also, I think, like, of course, when you're just starting something, you obviously have to be, like, cheaper than you would be, you know, three or four years in. And also, you do have to consider your audience. And I think part of the problem is, like, when actors start businesses, they often, because they're selling to other actors, like, then you are probably pricing it for the audience and you're probably doing a good job of that. But you the real like financial stability comes from. finding other creatives and other businesses or other people that are outside of the artist sphere to to do services for because those people just generally have a lot more money um and yeah and then i think the other thing too that i was going to say that um sparked something in me when you were talking about that was i realized that if i'm like back in the day i think oh my god my first website that I ever charged someone was like $400, which is crazy. But like, I did a $400 website and then that person went on to use that website to make like 300k in a year. And so when we talk about value, it's like, I think that the word value is like, okay, what does that actually mean? It means like that person is used, like you directly created $300,000 worth of value for someone in a year. You deserve to be paid more than $400 for that. So like you have to consider like even like. And to put it in, I guess, actor world speak, too, it's like people charge $400 for headshots if they're like on the lower end for headshot photographers or they're just turning out as a headshot photographer. And then it's like, OK, but what if that person books a national tour that, you know, obviously is not the world's most amount of money, but it's I don't know, the Broadway tours are like $2,000 a week or something. That's like $100,000 that you created for someone with $400. Like you have to charge more for that.

• Speaker #0

  A hundred percent. That's such a great way to think about it. And I've only just started considering that because I'm working with a business coach. And she's like, you can't think in hourly ways. Like you can't think like, how much does this cost an hour? It's like, how much value are you bringing? And it's so, so important for somebody out there. Okay. Like, let's say someone's listening and they're like. They've just been in their struggle. They've got their day job. Maybe they're scraping by with the one performance or creative thing that they started doing. They're listening to this and they're like, oh my gosh, I want to do what Sarah did. What would be a way for them to start to look at everything they're good at, what they're passionate about, and figure out what a creative business would be? If you could backtrack, what do you think is a good way for somebody to start to find their thing?

• Speaker #1

  Okay, well, I think part of my issue in this realm was I didn't realize what was all even out there or possible. And now there's so many people that are out here doing really amazing, cool things. So what I would do is like, I okay, actually, anyone who's listening to this and is inspired, go on my Instagram, go see who I'm following on Instagram. See what all those people do. Because I follow all sorts of like, copywriters, social media people. people who their entire they've created an entire studio where they like help people make their notion more organized like there's so like cool so many random little things that you could do and i would just like go down an instagram rabbit hole and then go on someone's go on someone's instagram then see who they follow and all the all the possibilities of of creative businesses that they follow like i i think i just didn't realize that there was like a whole world on the internet of like cool people doing cool things that I would have never thought of before.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. And they're not always like the biggest, most flashy people. Like I actually just made a post yesterday. We can learn so much from small business owners. Like you do not have to look to Fortune 500 people or people who are publicly traded. Like look to someone who's maybe like. five steps ahead of where you want to be. It is so much more accessible. You will learn so much more. And that's something you can actually shoot for in the short term.

• Speaker #1

  Yes, absolutely. Yeah. And I also think like if what I something that I did an exercise, someone actually led me through an exercise in 2020 that was like to write down all of your skills and then write down all of your assets. So like, for example, like, do you have a laptop? Like. Like, do you have a camera? Do you have like anything that you own that could like be helpful, even if it sounds stupid? Like, yeah, I have a notebook. I have a pen, you know, whatever. And and then put all of those assets and then all of your skills and like all the things that you are just inherently good at and sort of make connections. And this was before we had like chat to you, but honestly, if I was doing this now, I would throw that all into chat to you and I would be like, give me 50 like. businesses that could start with like these skills and these assets and like see what comes back out of you and then based on those anything that sounds interesting to you for that from there go on instagram and see if someone else is doing it and see how they've structured it that's exactly what i would do so smart that's that's our girl you could also be a business coach honestly so i i business coaching is so like i get kind of like an ick from like that like title yeah but I do like a lot of like consulting and strategy and stuff like that. And like, this is definitely the kind of stuff that I like talk about.

• Speaker #0

  So it's so hard because like the word coach is used so in so many different ways. And some of them are very icky. Like I call myself a creative coach, but I don't even know what I'm doing. Like I'm just helping people figure out what they're passionate about and how to draw the lines between the passions and like things they can actually do in the world. But yeah, I totally get what you're saying. But you have so much know-how. I mean, people would be lucky to learn from you.

• Speaker #1

  Thanks. Yeah. It's like I know that I love using utilizing coaches and educators and courses and things. But I also there's so many like icky ones that it just makes me like, yeah, nervous to use the title. But like, there are so many like very legitimate ones who are excellent and like truly changing people's lives every day. So it's it's a it's a great area.

• Speaker #0

  You'll find your word. I just see you doing it. The other thing you talked about in that original post that I think is so important, because I also recently had the joy of speaking to a group of college theater majors. And I mean, just the emotional intelligence they had, the kindness, the attention to detail, the great questions and curiosity they asked. I'm like, these kids could do anything. And so I just want to go through with you. What do performers and artists... already have that business being a business owner requires or that businesses that they may be hired for are actively looking for?

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. Oh, my God. Well, first of all, the personal the personal personability. What is that word?

• Speaker #0

  The personability.

• Speaker #1

  Yes. That's what I was like thinking of. Basically, actors are just charming, first of all. And like charm gets you truly everywhere in this life. The older you get, you're like, oh, wow. Charm is the number one skill that. makes money like it's crazy um but also like i think when you're a theater person surrounded by theater people you don't realize like i think you just think that everyone in the world is as hard working as everyone you know and you are but that is just absolutely not the case and like the more that i have like explored other like groups of humans and other like types of just again regular people, regular muggles. I'm like, oh no theater people are built different or the actor people are built different um so you already have the hard work ethic on your side you already have the charm on your side um you already have the storytelling capabilities on your side in a way that most other people don't inherently have and don't have like an intuitive knowledge of and those three things i think are like the main three that like if you have those you are truly unstoppable and it just in other industries would just be a matter of learning the specific terminology or whatever it is that would you would require for those specific industries but like it's all transferable you're always going to be able to find a through line with something that you learned in the theater side of your life 100 100 that's why when people are like what a useless degree actually i'm writing like a linkedin post about this i'm like it's actually the most useful degree and it's the degree I use every single day of my life. Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  Because. It made me adaptable. It made me resilient. It made me hardworking. I know how to work on a team. It gave me an innate understanding of storytelling, of human emotion, emotional intelligence. I just cannot go on enough. The thing that you need to learn is just like skills, but nothing is going to be harder than standing in a line trying to get an audition at five in the morning in the freezing cold.

• Speaker #1

  Correct.

• Speaker #0

  every singular thing in this life is actually easier than that and you've already done the most hard thing that can possibly be done yeah for sure for sure like you've gone out sang a song and had somebody like talk and text while you were trying to like explore like just bearing your heart to people you're gonna be able to survive like figuring out how to turn on a microphone or whatever the job is you end up doing yeah that was very specific to me i'm

• Speaker #1

  dead Yeah, it's really like the skills, like skills are easy to learn. It's like all of the stuff that, you know, inherently as an artist, that's hard to learn that you like already have built within you. A hundred percent. Yeah,

• Speaker #0

  that's these are the trainings these corporate people are taking. They're taking these trainings every day because like they don't know how to emotionally be vulnerable and bare their soul.

• Speaker #1

  Right, exactly. And also, I always joke that I feel like I guess like granted, I like have. spent a lot of time. I've worked very hard on my business, but I feel like I always make the joke. And I do think it's real that I have probably put 60% of effort that I have historically put into my acting career. I put probably 60% of that same effort on my business and like have gone so much farther. Like people don't realize like when you're building towards any other kind of future. Yes, hard work actually equals... uh results on a slope whereas an acting career you can work as hard as whatever but if you don't look a certain way or if you don't um aren't in the right place at the right time or or don't have the right connection it's never going to go anywhere for you so yeah yes not to be on the acting side of it all but like if you actually want to build something where your hard work actually results in something definitely consider starting a business

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, I think it also just, again, like gives you the resilience and fortitude to keep going with your whatever your creative career is that you've like been most passionate about outside of whatever you end up doing for business or money. Like it gives you the fortitude to like literally stick with it forever. And then if you make it when you're 50, that's awesome. And you can go ahead and go all in on that. Or you may discover that the dreams you found on the way to your dreams are so powerful. You want to keep doing them, too. And you'll always have these multiple things. Yeah. But yeah, like in acting, it's like, well, in the real world, I think A plus B often equals C. But in acting, A plus B sometimes equals 37. And it's like, what? That wasn't even an option.

• Speaker #1

  Literally.

• Speaker #0

  Or zebra. I mean, it's like A plus B equals zebra is more like it.

• Speaker #1

  Yes. Yes. Acting algebra. Exactly.

• Speaker #0

  So, okay. What would you say if someone's listening, they're like, OK, this sounds pretty good, but it couldn't be me. Like what's what's one belief that someone listening may need to let go of in order to go toward this vision of artistry and financial stability being one?

• Speaker #1

  I think like going back to the idea of identity and like I think, again, there's like a lot of artists who still feel like, well, yeah, but then I'm going to like. have these multiple identities and i think actually the fear behind the fear with that is like um they are worried that if they find success in another thing they will actually like it more and actually ditch acting and so i think that a lot of um i think a lot of people don't end up like pursuing other things because they're honestly deep down worried about that to which i would say you're welcome to do so but also like you don't have to you can you again you can design a life where you can do both and um and you don't have to completely commit to one identity

• Speaker #0

  as long as you're telling the story of it like in a way that makes sense 100 oh i did want to ask you one question so you i don't know if you because you're in entrepreneur world as well as artist world i I see a lot of... threads and Instagram videos and pictures being like, oh, entrepreneurship is so hard. Nobody knows what it's like. You're working around the clock. And I'm like, I don't relate. And I wonder if you could, and I think it's similar to what we've been talking about, but dispel that myth a little bit. Why does that story get told? And like, why is it not applicable to people who have already pursued some sort of artistry like acting?

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, so this is like going kind of a little bit back to what I was saying about how like, like, you've already done something 10 times harder than what entrepreneurship is. Whenever I see posts about that, like on threads or wherever, like from other business owners, I'm like, y'all literally have no idea. You guys literally have no idea what hard means. Like, I can't with that. I understand because to them, it might be hard because it, again, I've never had a corporate job, but I imagine it is probably harder than a corporate job, which is how many, many people come to entrepreneurship through the means of like... Having a regular people job, doing corporate and then hating it and wanting to quit and do business. I do think it's probably harder than that. However, in some ways,

• Speaker #0

  but nothing is harder than having somebody else control your life, in my opinion. Fair. Yes. Maybe you give up some free time, but the autonomy you get back that like you get to work between 9 and 10 p.m. and go to your kid's soccer game or whatever it is like to me, that is invaluable. So I guess it just depends on what you value.

• Speaker #1

  But yeah. It's like that old thing of like, choose your hard, like what is which version of hard do you want? But I do think that most people have not played X Games mode, which is trying to be an actor. And that is 87 trillion million times harder than anything you would monetize on the Internet. Full stop. Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  If you could go back to yourself, the version of you that was doing this the first year you were out there web designing, what would you say to her? And why? Like, what advice would you give to that young Sarah?

• Speaker #1

  Okay, two things. I would say one, it's really all about positioning. It's all like mindset work and then and then positioning yourself to be an expert who is trustworthy. But also to get there, you do probably have to go through some trials and tribulations and some tough clients and actually like put in the work to learn how to design. and to develop your craft. So I don't think in one way, I don't think there are any shortcuts. And also, if I could go back, I would be like, it's going to be fine. Just like give it five years. That's good. Honestly, I feel like if we all knew there was like a time limit to suffering, we could make it through so much more.

• Speaker #0

  So that's great advice to younger self. And then I wanted to also ask a question because you talked about how you think a lot of Ah actors, artists don't go into some sort of other business exploit where they could have financial stability and more to invest in their art because they're terrified they're going to let go of their art. I believe so much of that is connected to the inner child and like a promise we made to ourselves when we were really little. Some of us as young as like three or five. Did you have to do any like talking to your younger self and being like, hey, we're still pursuing. acting, but I'm just like also doing something to like take care of us now. Because I think sometimes you really do have to talk that younger self off the ledge. And I'm wondering if you had any experience with that.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, I think the first couple of years when I was just starting to run my business, I there were a lot I had a lot of resentment towards theater because I was like, what do you mean I can like, do all this and make all this money and people creatively value me and I've only been doing this for two years and like... you know, like, I was like, I can't believe I wasted so much of my time on theater and begging people to be in rooms that like, I am definitely qualified to be in and like, blah, blah, blah. And then I think that was natural for that time when I was just like feeling so empowered by business. And so just like, Oh, my God, like, there's this whole other world and like, whatever. And I, I, for that, that was happening for me during the pandemic. And also like, maybe 2021 2022. So we were just kind of just starting to ease back in the theater. So it kind worked out timeline wise in the world where there wasn't like a lot for me to be auditioning for anyway like things were just coming back whatever so I was lucky in that sense but I definitely felt a loss of like artistic self I would say in that time because I was just feeling so fired up but I think then you know 2023 2024 I like went back to start seeing more shows and like got to be in more things. And like, every time I was like, in a theatrical space or singing in something or doing something or doing a show, I'd be like, yeah, but like this really fucking hits, you know,

• Speaker #0

  like nothing like it. Best drug in the universe.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. And so I think allowing myself to go through the ebbs and flows and even like even now where I feel like I'm a lot more balanced on both. I do. There are months like last month. I basically ignored my acting career. Not that there was much happening because it was like Thanksgiving, but I basically ignored my acting career the entire month and was like really just focused on my own business and really fired up about that. And now like at the beginning of each month, I'll just check in and be like, okay, like what do I need to do on the acting side of my life? Maybe I need to like take a class. Like I think there's ebbs and flows and I think that's like natural. And I think you can just allow yourself to have that.

• Speaker #0

  That's such good advice. Like monthly check-ins to be like, do I like what I did last month? What would I like to do this month? What is missing from my life? What? is like overemphasize and then making adjustments. Like I think that so much of why we hold ourselves back from anything or stay stuck is because we're terrified that we're gonna be there forever or that we won't be able to change in the future. And it's like, if you can just remind yourself that you are in control of your own life. Most of the time, like if you have like moderate privilege, like you can make different choices and survive. That's why I dyed my hair blonde back in the day. I wanted to prove to myself I could make a decision that changed my life in some small way and survive it. And I had a great time being blonde for two years. And then my hair started dying. So I had to come back. But yeah.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. And I also think, too, like for theater, it's like. you are always going to be unless you're like a star you know in which case like go be a star and like start your business later when like yeah work dries up for you but i think that um no matter what if you're just like a regular working actor like the rest of us like the job is always going to be going on your computer submitting for stuff like you know your agent if you have one will be doing that on the back end as well and like showing up to open calls if you want to do that. Again, not everyone wants to do that, but you can. And, you know, continuing to update your materials. Those are all things you can be doing alongside running a business. Like I have a daily morning workflow where like I answer my business emails and then I go on the Playable.com and I look and see what's auditioning and I go submit for whatever. takes me 10 minutes to email a casting director my videos that I have. And then I'm like, great, okay, now I have to go work on client work. Like, there's definitely like a way to make all of it sort of happen within your life. Like you don't need to... You don't need to dedicate an entire day to like your acting side and dedicate an entire day to your business side. Like there's definitely little ways to like make sure that you're hitting all the check marks of things that you would be doing regardless if you worked in a restaurant or had your business or were a nanny or whatever.

• Speaker #0

  A hundred percent. I think the point is like life is so much more expansive than we've been led to believe. And there are so many more options. And like you could even get a job job and have it be something that is remote. and then you're... open up to like go audition in the middle of the day. Like there are so many different ways you can be if you, if entrepreneurship doesn't sound fun to you, like you can be an entrepreneur, you can get more of a corporate job or a startup job. Like there's a lot of different ways to be financially secure and you don't just have one option of like pursuing this or bust.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. And also now, especially because everything's self-tape like. You're going to be doing all this stuff in your apartment anyway. If you get a callback and you go in, that's amazing. But how often are you getting an in-person callback? Hopefully a lot. I hope you are getting a lot of callbacks. But I think people think in their brains, they're like, oh, my God, I need time so that every single day I can be at the audition studio doing whatever. And I'm like, realistically, are you going to the audition studio every single day now?

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. Remember your inner Taurus, everyone. That's just all I have to say. Get real with yourself. So many great tips were shared, Sarah. I just have one more question. We talked about what you would say to your younger self, to the one who had just started out and was doing this business. If you could speak to that same version of you, or the one that did like the first website for a friend, if she could speak to you, I'm sorry. If that younger version of you could speak to you, what would she say to you today, seeing all that you've done? And what do you think she'd say to you and why?

• Speaker #1

  Oh, my God. I feel like she'd be shook. I'm dead. I feel like she'd be shook. Like, I feel like she would be like, wow, you have, like, created the ultimate, like, dream life. And, like, I feel like she'd be like, I'm so proud of you. Not to get sappy. No, I love sap.

• Speaker #0

  I live in the tree. Thank you so much, Sarah. You are so powerful and your story is inspiring. And I know it's going to help so many people listening to know they can be an artist and an entrepreneur or, and, and, or like have a corporate job, whatever, like you do not have to struggle. And that doesn't mean you're giving up on your artistry. You're actually expanding it. So thank you.

• Speaker #1

  Thank you for having me. This was so fun. You ask amazing questions. You are an excellent host, so I understand why you are in the position you are in.

• Speaker #0

  Thank you, my love.

• Speaker #1

  You're awesome.

• Speaker #0

  Wow. What an amazing conversation. As we wrap up, I just want to say this. If this conversation stirred something in you, that's not accidental. So many creatives have been carrying the belief that it has to be one or the other. passion or stability, art or money. And what I love about this conversation with Sarah is the reminder that that story isn't true. You don't have to struggle to be legitimate. You don't have to starve to be devoted and you don't have to abandon your creativity to build a life that supports you. All of these things can live together. So remember, go out and do it. No one is better suited for it than you. If you want to follow Sarah and learn more about her work, You can find her on Instagram at Kleist Creative and visit her website, sarahkleist.com. I've also linked everything in the show notes. Thank you so much for listening. As always, if you love this conversation, share it with a friend, especially if you have a friend that's a young performer, actor, what have you. I know they need to hear this. Give us a rating and review. Follow us on all social platforms at Lauren LaGrasso, at Unleash Your Inner Creative. Unleash is executive produced and hosted by me, Lauren LaGrasso, edited by Blondel Garcon with theme music by Liz Fole. Thank you so much for being here. I love you and I believe in you. Talk with you next week.