🪄Julia Cameron: The Artist’s Way, Morning Pages & Creativity in the Age of AI | Unleash Your Inner Creative with Lauren LoGrasso (A Creativity Podcast)

Description

In this episode, I welcome back Julia Cameron, author of The Artist’s Way, for our sixth conversation on Unleash Your Inner Creative. We talk about the enduring power of Morning Pages, how to silence the inner critic, and what creativity needs now in the age of AI.

Julia’s work has helped millions of people reconnect with their creativity and art, and in this conversation we go deeper into the tools that actually sustain a creative life. We talk about why Morning Pages remain one of the most powerful practices for creativity, how to work with your inner critic (Julia calls hers “Nigel”), and why play is essential for creative breakthroughs.

We also explore creativity during uncertain times, writing through fear and self-doubt, and how creativity evolves through major life transitions. Along the way, I share some personal news: that I’m pregnant and expecting my first child… and Julia offers beautiful wisdom about Motherhood and creativity.

If you’ve ever struggled with creative blocks or wondered how to stay creative through ALL of life, you’ll find Julia’s perspective is both grounding and inspiring.

In this episode we discuss:

• The real purpose of Morning Pages
• How to silence your inner critic
• Why creativity thrives through play and curiosity
• Julia Cameron’s thoughts on AI and creativity
• Writing through fear and self-doubt
• Creativity and motherhood
• The importance of “believing mirrors”

Check out ALL of Julia’s art and writing: https://juliacameronlive.com/

🎙️ Connect & Work with Me:
If you love this episode and want personalized support to break through creative blocks, build confidence, and finally share your work with the world, I’d love to help. As a creative coach, I work with artists, entrepreneurs, and multi-passionate creatives to unleash their inner voice and build a thriving creative life from a place of self-love. ✨ Want to work together? Email me at Lauren.LoGrasso@gmail.com or visit https://www.laurenlograsso.com/contact/ to book a free 15-minute discovery call.

Remember to subscribe/follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your pods. Please leave us a rating and review- it helps SO much in getting the show out there. And tell a friend about the show- podcasts are very personal and tend to be spread person to person. If this show helped you or made you smile, share the love :)

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Transcription

Speaker #0
What if creative bravery isn't always loud and fast? What if sometimes it looks like quietly writing poems for 10 years, never intending to publish them, and then one day deciding, maybe I'm allowed to share this? Today, I'm back with Julia Cameron, author of The Artist's Way and the queen of creativity ourself, for our sixth conversation together on Unleash Your Inner Creative. And somehow, Julia continues to surprise me. In this episode, Julia shares one of her boldest plans yet, her journey to publish her very first book of poetry. We talk about quieting the inner critic and why play, humor, and wonder are not indulgences, but necessities for a creative life. We also dive into her new book, The Daily Artist's Way, 366 Meditations for Creative Living, which is out now. In addition to that, we talk about her current relationship with fear. Her thoughts on AI, which are really interesting and might surprise you. Spirituality, motherhood, discipline, how to find powerful creative collaborators, and why creativity is something we recover, not something we ever have to invent from scratch. We also discuss what she hopes her creative legacy will be and how she views herself as an artist. This conversation feels like an invitation to be playful, to be brave, and to believe deeply in your birthright to creativity. and reinvention. So let's get into it. Here she is, the incredible Julia Cameron. Well, I'm so, so thrilled and honored to be back with you again this year. This is, I think, six years in a row I've had the privilege of talking with you. And so thank you for coming on once again to Unleash Your Inner Creative.
Speaker #1
Well, you're very welcome. We'll try and unleash our inner creative for an hour.
Speaker #0
I know we will. I know we will. And so because I haven't talked to you in a year, I'm wondering what for you in the past year has been a creative highlight?
Speaker #1
Aha. I'm doing something very risky. I'm publishing a book of poetry. And I found myself saying, I know I've written poems in my morning pages journals. And I probably have about 20. And then I had my friend Emma Lively, my colleague, goes through the journals looking for poems. And she found 250. And so she's coming out in a week. And we're going through all 250 poems, deciding which ones are book-worthy. And the idea for writing a book of poetry came to me because, you know, singer Judy Collins?
Speaker #0
Oh, yeah.
Speaker #1
She just published a book of poetry. And I thought if Judy is brave enough, maybe I should be brave enough. And I found that my inner perfectionist. was alive and well when it came to dealing with poems.
Speaker #0
Wow.
Speaker #1
So I'm hoping to be able to resign my perfectionist and feel a sense of wonder at the wit of the poems.
Speaker #0
That is such amazing news. I guess I didn't really... Have you never published a book of poetry before?
Speaker #1
No, I never have. I've put poems... in my other books. And if you go on my website, we've got 50 poems, but I've never published a book of poetry. And I find myself feeling abashed.
Speaker #0
Wow. So I didn't realize that because I love your poems so much. And we've heard them on the podcast several times. And I think of them often, actually. So. I'm excited this is going to be in the world so we can all read what you've been up to for years on end, just writing in these amazing pages. But you're talking about the inner critic. How are you working through that as you go toward this and like remaining in excitement for this incredible new thing you're doing?
Speaker #1
Well, I'm saying to myself, Nigel, Nigel is my inner critic. Nigel, you're not invited to comment. And I found myself looking through an old book of mine called God is No Laughing Matter. I found a poem in the book that I forgot having written. And the first two lines of the poem are, when God tired of using words, he expressed himself in birds.
Speaker #0
I love that. Yeah, I can't wait. That's going to be a joy to read. So is that going to be your 2026 publication, you think, the poetry book?
Speaker #1
Maybe about a year.
Speaker #0
Okay.
Speaker #1
And I'm starting something called Cameron Press, which is where I'm going to self-publish a number of books. And I'm talking to my literary agent, Susan Rayhoffer, about whether or not I should self-publish the poetry book or whether she should take it out for sale. And. She successfully sold Judy's book. So I'm thinking that perhaps I should let it go the usual course and put it up for sale.
Speaker #0
It sounds like this past year has been such a fruitful year when it comes to starting new things.
Speaker #1
Well, I find myself feeling excited. feeling sort of prosperous and feeling like I can set an example by publishing poetry. People will not be expecting it. And maybe they will think, oh, she's brave and just a little bit foolish.
Speaker #0
Which we all could use to be. And it reminds me of this thing because obviously I read. the daily artist's way. I'm reading my way through it because it is a daily practice. But I love one of these affirmations you had in the beginning. My creativity is a healing source for me and for others. And then there was another one where you said something about my creativity basically inspires other people to be creative as well. And this seems like a great example of that.
Speaker #1
Yes. I said to Judy, you realize you've inspired me. And she said, I did? What a wonderful thing. She said, I love thinking that my poetry inspired your poetry and my book inspired your book.
Speaker #0
Because it always does, right? It has ripple effects and creativity begets creativity, not only in ourselves, but in others. The more that you put out there, the more likely it is for somebody to see it and say, well, maybe I could do that too.
Speaker #1
Yes. Maybe I could do that too is the perfect phrase.
Speaker #0
Yeah. I love that. And I think that the world needs so much more of that right now because I live in LA and it's an interesting time in Hollywood. I'm sure you've heard, but there's a lot of instability here right now because of the strikes. There's a lot of people I know who are packing up their bags and... deciding that they're going away from their creative career, going towards something more stable. And I'm wondering, for the people that are sticking around, but maybe in a hard time creatively, what advice would you have for them on how to move forward and maintain optimistic, even when there seems to be a lot of evidence around them that things aren't going well?
Speaker #1
Well, this is where I sound like a fanatic. where I get to say, well, what I think you need to do is write morning pages and telling them to get up in the morning, put their pen to paper, and write out their thoughts. And I think that if they do a practice of morning pages, they will retain optimism. And I think that Morning Pages... are sort of witness to our lives. And I can see you nodding.
Speaker #0
I've been doing them, Julia. I've been doing them. I've been good.
Speaker #1
And I've been getting good reports from this Daily Artist Way book.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
But people are finding it is an easy goad to writing. And I had somebody come over this afternoon. And she said, I couldn't write, and now I'm writing two pages a day.
Speaker #0
Wow. Yeah, I always marvel at your consistency. And you do, you really are a disciplined person, I think, because I know how loyal you've been to your artists, to your morning pages, and to your daily writing. How do you find the beauty and the holiness in discipline? Because sometimes I'm a little rebel and I can feel myself being like, well, I don't want to do it today. And I don't think I should have to do it today. So how do you find the beauty and the freedom in that kind of discipline?
Speaker #1
Well, I had a review recently that said Julia's tools are simple and repetitive. And I think it was intended as an insult. And I thought, no, it's a compliment. Tools should be simple and repetitive. and tools. should encourage us and they should give us hope. And how I find beauty is, as I said, I have written poems in my morning pages. And I have a boyfriend. I was 75 years old and I said, never have another lover. It's over. And so just enjoy being single. And I was sort of settling into being single when I met him. And his name is Brian Thomas. And I'm dedicating the poetry book to him. This book goes to Brian Thomas, who told me that my poems had promise. and I think it's important that we surround ourselves with positive people, and I think it's something that I call believing mirrors, and believing mirrors are people who reflect back to us our strength and our possibility. When you tell them you're going to publish a book of poetry, they say, wonderful. They don't say. Oh, dear. And so I think a believing mirror is somebody who gives you hope and expresses your own courage back to you.
Speaker #0
I actually I've started doing keynotes, Julia, and I quote you in them often. And I bring up the believing mirrors because I think it's one of the most powerful images for people because. It's really hard to pursue a creative path in complete isolation. And when you don't have anybody reflecting back to you, it can just feel like, is this even real? Like, I don't know. Like, it feels like, yeah, like you're making art in a cave, which can be fun for a while. But sometimes you want to make it in community.
Speaker #1
Yes, I think that's true. And I think... Morning pages are one source of witness, and they reflect back to you your dreams, your hopes, your desires. And then I think you need people who tell you that's not crazy. And a believing mirror is somebody who doesn't say you're crazy. It's somebody who says to you, you're probably right. Why don't you try it? And that expression, why don't you try it, is very powerful. And that's something that believing mirrors say to you all the time. Why don't you try it, Lauren?
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
So have you got something that you're cooking up that you're feeling shy about?
Speaker #0
Well, since you asked, Julie, I actually really want to write a book. It makes me want to cry a little bit saying it out loud to you. But yeah, like that. It's a big dream of mine.
Speaker #1
And when you write in your morning pages, I want to write a book. What do your pages say?
Speaker #0
Yes.
Speaker #1
Yes, you can.
Speaker #0
Yeah. They encourage me. And guidance does, too. I did guidance right before I came on. That one has been the most astounding to me. Guidance.
Speaker #1
We should explain to people that guidance is asking the universe directly for something that is... positive. And you say, what about X? And you put down, what about a book? And guidance says, I'll bet you can do it. And guidance is always positive. It's always prompting you to move forward. It's always gentle. And sometimes people are afraid to ask the universe for advice. But my experience with it is that for 30 years now, I've asked the universe for advice and the universe has given me kindly advice.
Speaker #0
Always. It's kind and it's honest and loving and encouraging. And sometimes the things that your hand writes as you're asking the questions really shocks me. I'm like. Like, where did that come from?
Speaker #1
And the answer is, well, I keep talking about my inner eight-year-old and my inner eight-year-old is positive. And so when I ask, where did that come from? The inner eight-year-old says, from me.
Speaker #0
I was wondering about little Julie, actually, when I was thinking about our conversation. Is there anything you've learned from your younger self? specifically in the past couple years that surprised you and that you've brought into your creative life?
Speaker #1
I think the poetry is a good example. I wrote 250 poems over a 10-year period. That's 25 poems a year. That's a sense of optimism. And I think that It surprises me. You know, like I said, I thought I had 20 poems. And here I had a prodigious number of poems. And I found myself feeling greatly encouraged and a little bit magical. You know, like I said, the poem about birds. When God got tired of using words, he expressed himself in birds. I love the whimsy of that. I found that the poems were full of whimsy. I'm going to put them in a book, and I'm going to make the print large so that people reading it... can also have a sense of whimsy instead of squinting at the page.
Speaker #0
That sounds great because I haven't been wearing my glasses very much, and I would like to be able to read it without my glasses.
Speaker #1
Well, that's what I'm designing.
Speaker #0
You know, that's something you talk about a lot, and I think something so important to remind people of is that a lot of times, like, we're not afraid to do the work, right? You say that you'll give people morning pages and they're like, great. I'll do the morning pages. Great. I'm happy to do anything that's like hard work effort that I have to get through. But when you tell them to go on an artist date, they're like, wait a second here. I don't know how to do that. Have fun. Have a fun festive moment. That sounds hard. Why is fun and play such a vital part of keeping your creativity alive?
Speaker #1
Well, I think it's essential. I think having a sense of play gives you a sense of wonder, and having a sense of wonder gives you a sense of possibility. And I think that we are trained to believe that creativity is hard. And so morning pages are hard. And we... intuitively think, oh, they will probably work. But if I say play, they say, what does play have to do with creativity? I don't get it. And I will say, well, we have an expression, the play of ideas, but we don't realize that it's a prescription. play, and you will have ideas.
Speaker #0
It's so true, too, because if we look back at our early creativity, it all happened in play. make-believe. We were coloring with our friends or our siblings. You know, all these things happened in a state of play and imagination. And then we get older and we think we can work our way into being creative or into our art. And yeah, sometimes you can, but if you don't have that layer of play, you're leaving a lot of magic on the table.
Speaker #1
Yes. That's a great way to put it, Leaving magic on the table.
Speaker #0
Yeah. You know. In the book and in your work, you talk so much about creative recovery, which I really relate to. I talk a lot and think a lot about like creative wounds and like how we ended up getting shut down in the first place and how we can remember and unleash in our current moment. But why do you use that phrase recovery? Why is that something important to state when somebody is going through this artist's way process or unleashing their inner creative process?
Speaker #1
Well, I think... Recovery is a literal term. We're out to re-cover the distance that we have traveled away from our creativity. So I like the word recovery rather than the word discovery, although they're closely related.
Speaker #0
That really touches my heart. I've never ever, I don't think I've ever heard you say that, but it's so true because I always say. Creativity isn't something we have to conjure up. It's just something we have to remember. But that image of walking back to the place where the wound happened and then just bringing that part of yourself into the present moment is so visceral and beautiful.
Speaker #1
I hope so.
Speaker #0
It is. It is. Your hope is fulfilled. I'm wondering in the book, there's so many amazing meditations. Do you have a favorite one?
Speaker #1
There's a passage in the book where it talks about inspiration. And it says, inspiration is not something sudden and powerful. It's something subtle and nuanced. And so when you're looking for inspiration, look to your senses and let your senses guide you. And I think the idea that there's a still small voice within us which whispers a sense of possibility and I'm going to keep you to your word about this book of yours. And I have an exercise that you might want to try.
Speaker #0
Okay.
Speaker #1
So the reason I can't write a book is... and the number from 1 to 10, and take a look at what your fears are. I'll write a book, and it won't be any good. I'll write a book, and nobody will want to publish it. I'll write a book, and nobody will want to read it. And you put your fears down, and you see that they're all grounded in the negative. It's very possible that you'll write a book and everybody will want to read it. And you'll write a book and everybody will fight to publish it. So you take your negative thought and you turn it into a positive affirmation. And then you have 10 reasons why you can write a book. I instead of 10 reasons why you can't.
Speaker #0
Wow. I definitely need to do that because you named some of my fears for sure. Do you have any because you are such a prolific author? Do you have any advice for me or anyone out there who is interested in writing a book on? Yeah. Like what what comes to mind? Like when you talk to young authors or. young writers who are interested or any age writers who are interested in doing this for the first time, what is your advice to them?
Speaker #1
I would tell them to write morning pages that will open the door. And then I will tell them to begin and to begin with where they are. And so you might find yourselves saying. I'm sitting in my studio. It's a room I designed myself with the help of my inner eight-year-old. I call it my cloud room. And so I find it's a wonderful place. for me to begin saying, what are my cloud thoughts? And my cloud thoughts are positive. And so I'm going to say, I'm going to write a positive sentence about a book. And that is, here I am, at last, beginning.
Speaker #0
My book just got started with Julia Cameron. I mean, come on. What could be better than that? Oh, man, that makes me so excited. You know, Julia, I think one of the things you hit on when you were saying potential fears around writing the book is something that I do struggle with. I am a very creative person, but I'm also a very driven person. And today it's interesting. You've uplifted me so much. I'm feeling so positive talking with you. But I was feeling really down on myself and a little disappointed earlier. Like I haven't done enough. I should be doing more in my creative career. I'm feeling disappointed like it hasn't taken off the way I thought it should. And I'm putting that in quotes. When you feel that way, or if you ever feel that way, what is your first line of defense? Like, how do you talk yourself off the ledge?
Speaker #1
I write a silly poem. This little poem goes out to me. I find I need it to feel free. I'm writing a poem at my best. I'm writing a poem at the behest of my inner poet who knows the best. So you just write a ditty like that. And I think that what we don't realize is the place that humor plays in creativity. And I think humor is something which opens a doorway for us. So when I'm feeling discouraged, I write something humorous. And I will tell you the story of how this began. I wrote a crime novel called The Dark Room, and it got 19 good reviews. And then the 20th review came in, and unfortunately, it was in the New York Times. And it was negative. The writer was outraged that my... detective hero was a Jungian. He evidently was a Freudian. So he didn't believe in serendipity. He didn't believe in the luck that the detective was having chasing down clues. And he published a very negative review. that was all about how much he hated Carl Jung and how foolish he thought Jungians were. And so I read the review, and I was heart sick. I thought, oh, my God, I've been shamed in the New York Times. The 19 good reviews went down the drain, and the negative reviews. stood on its own. Then I remembered humor. This little poem goes out to Bill Kent, who must feel awful the way that he spent his time critiquing Carl Jung instead of on the work I'd done. And immediately, I felt better. I felt like... I've taken my power back. I'm not letting this man have his way. And I thought from then on out, whatever I'm criticized unfairly, this little poem goes out to me. I find myself needing to be free. I have been told. I am the worst, and that makes me feel I'm cursed. But the little poems are very helpful.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
They give you a sense of levity, and they give you, most of all, a sense of power. Another example of something you can do about your book is you can write a negative poem. This little poem is about my book. I find I haven't dared to look at all the good that could be done if only I had a sense of fun.
Speaker #0
Are you freestyling these? They're so good.
Speaker #1
I'm freestyling them.
Speaker #0
Julia Cameron, the freestyle poet. Okay, put that in the New York Times. I'm ready to see it there. That is great advice. And it is important to have a sense of humor because a lot of times, something I do sometimes is if I'm like having a mental breakdown, I literally audio record it and then listen back to myself. Because usually the things that I'm thinking and saying are absolutely ridiculous. And like, way beyond the situation and what it calls for. So I find having that reflection is helpful. But the poem is such a fun, festive way to do that. And that's creative, too. Rather than like crying into my phone, I could cry and write my poem.
Speaker #1
And there is a rhyme there.
Speaker #0
Yes. See, you're rubbing off on me. This is good. I'm getting the Julia energy. You know, There's something I wanted to ask you about just because I'm super curious about it. And it's something that is on everyone's mind right now. And I've not heard you talk about it. What are your thoughts on AI for creatives? Like, what are your thoughts on it in general? And then as it pertains to creatives?
Speaker #1
Well, I think we need to stop thinking of it as a threat and start thinking of AI as a support. And. learn the type of question that it responds to gladly. And I think it can be a wonderful, useful thing if we just stop thinking, oh, it's stealing my thunder. If we start thinking of it as, oh, it's a support. It's a help. People worry about... AI taking over the world and that there's no place for creativity. And my experience with it is that it actually can help, but you need to ask it to help.
Speaker #0
Do you utilize it at all? And if so, what have you found it to be most effective for?
Speaker #1
The boyfriend that I mentioned prior has written a wonderful book, and it's with an editor right now, and she just mailed him back. I loved it.
Speaker #0
Yay.
Speaker #1
And he double-checked his work against AI. He would say, is there anything that can be done to make this chapter? stronger. And by casting it in a positive light, he found he got positive feedback. Yes, you can make it stronger if you include more details of her appearance. People are wondering what she looks like. And I think that the process of using AI, which at first I was threatened. He told me he was using AI to double-check things, and I thought, what's wrong with the human brain? What's wrong with using an editor? And he persisted, and he found himself. feeling reinforced. I found myself thinking, he's on to something here. And he was so open-minded about AI. He was very willing to be led. And he said sometimes he would get advice that didn't seem good to him. And so he wouldn't use it. And I think that that's... where discernment comes in, in dealing with AI, what seems sensible and reasonable and exciting, and what just seems ill-footed. So I think we have to remember that we don't need to hang our brains at the door.
Speaker #0
That's a great quote. I mean, I think the only problem comes when, like you said, people are outsourcing their own intuition and creativity to it completely. They're not doing any of that question of, hmm, does that actually make sense? Is that good advice? Is it even true? They're just taking it as gospel because it's not. It's, you know, it's got a lot of great information, but it isn't a source of absolute truth. So if you're using it as a idea generator or a creative partner, it can be great as long as you're not outsourcing your own intuition and creativity to it completely.
Speaker #1
I agree.
Speaker #0
I love getting your take on that. So you have no fear that AI is going to replace human creativity in any way?
Speaker #1
No, I don't think so.
Speaker #0
Good. I'm glad to hear it. I trust you. I don't think so either. I mean, that was part of why I started the podcast, because. AI can replicate human creativity, but it can't be creative. I wanted to go into another little piece of advice I'm curious to get from you. So, Julia, I have some big news. I know you're a mother, and I actually just found out I'm pregnant.
Speaker #1
Aha.
Speaker #0
Yeah. As we're recording. What did you say?
Speaker #1
I said, no wonder you're glowing.
Speaker #0
Oh, thank you. Yeah, I'm really excited. I got married over the summer and then, you know, I'm now nine weeks pregnant. So it's really exciting. The baby's due in August. And I know you have an amazing daughter. And so I'm curious from your perspective, how did becoming a mother change or enhance your creativity? And any advice you might have for me as an expecting mother?
Speaker #1
To be excited. to allow yourself to be thrilled, to allow yourself to think, there are so many things that I can teach this child. And I put a Rolling Stones album on and watched her light up. And I thought, we don't need to be pious. We don't need... to abandon our previous loves, we can share them with this child. And so my daughter grew up loving rock and roll.
Speaker #0
And how did it, if anything, like, how did it change you as a writer, having a daughter? Like, how did motherhood change or enhance your writing, if at all?
Speaker #1
Well, I think you're asking a book. question again. Like, will I be struck mute by motherhood? And the answer is no, you won't be. You'll be able to write. You'll be able to write fondly. And I think that when you say to yourself, I am... scared of motherhood, what you're doing is you're negating all of the prime mothers who have come before you and who have proved for themselves that creativity and motherhood can go hand in glove. So I would look around and be careful of who you talk to because you People will tell you that motherhood and creativity don't mix. And my experience is just the opposite. Motherhood and creativity go very well together.
Speaker #0
I really do trust that. I mean, I do have some fears just because there's so much unknown. But every single woman I've had on my podcast has had their greatest creative success after having. a child or children. So I feel like obviously I'm not doing a scientific study, but the numbers don't lie. You know, that's a lot of proof. So I really appreciate your advice. And that's good advice to stay with people who are positive about it and see how fruitful it is in every way. And I've been thinking, too, about, you know, you're such an amazing teacher and this prolific artist. You have so much writing under your belt that you've shared with the world. Does your creativity shift at all when you're going between being a writer? or then like into a teacher? Is it the same source? How does the creativity shift between the different things you do?
Speaker #1
I don't think of it as shifting. I think of it as listening for the impulse. And it's when I sit down to write, I'm listening for the impulse to write. When I'm standing up teaching, I'm listening for the impulse of what to say. And so I don't think of it as, let me say, I was afraid when I first started teaching that it would take away my creativity. And what I found was that as I told people how to stay creative themselves, I heard the message. And that actually... more creativity poured forth for me. And I think that I was being led, you know, I think I had a limited God concept. And I think I was believing in a punitive God. a God who would take away a good thing and punish me. And I started praying to a line from Dylan Thomas, The forest that's a green fuse drives the flower. And I found myself thinking, God is expansive. God is creative. God is festive. We don't have one pink flower, we have hundreds. And snowflakes are the ultimate exercise in creative glee. And I found myself thinking that it was going to be all right, that my creativity was a gift. using my creativity was something I was intended to do, not something I would be punished for.
Speaker #0
And I have to highly recommend the book you wrote about guidance, especially if somebody had grew up with a God that was the way Julia was explaining God before, like more of a punitive God versus an all loving, fun, expansive God, it helps you really create your own spiritual practice. And I just think it's so important for creatives. And I've known people along the years who haven't been able to find some sort of spiritual practice because they grew up with that idea. And it's really, I think, a great invitation to find your own form of spirituality.
Speaker #1
Yes, the book was called Living the Artist's Way.
Speaker #0
Living the Artist's Way. It's a great one. That's one of my favorites of yours.
Speaker #1
The subtitle is An Intuitive Path to Greater Creativity.
Speaker #0
Yeah. I mean, actually, I would like to ask a question because I'm thinking of one friend that I have right now who is a staunch atheist and is also, though, very curious about spirituality, but hasn't found what her thing is yet. If you could talk, because I know your boyfriend also was or maybe is still an atheist, but has found great wonder in doing the morning pages. So if you could talk to somebody who is maybe in that situation right now about how to begin to develop their own version of spirituality, what would you say to them?
Speaker #1
I would say it's none of my business. I have an atheist boyfriend. And I talk to him sometimes and say, you mean you really believe? there's nothing? And he will say, yes, I really believe there's nothing. And I have believed it since I was a teenager. And I will say, well, I believe there's something. I'm a believer. I believe that there is an expanded. divine force working through all things, and that it made animals, and it made trees in their infinite variety. And I don't convince him to not be an atheist. I don't say to him, well, Here's how you can start to believe. But I will say to him, can you say an atheist prayer for me? And I believe the higher power is listening. And he will say, God help your servant, Julia. And I believe God listens.
Speaker #0
I love that. An atheist prayer. Yeah. And I was more wondering, like, I'm not saying to convince somebody to believe in God. I don't believe in pushing my beliefs on anyone. It's more for people who don't currently have a spiritual practice, but long for that and are looking for one. That was more of my question. How can they start to form a spiritual practice?
Speaker #1
And that brings me back to my usual response. Try Morning Pages. And what you will find is a sense of optimism and connection. I think of the Morning Pages as sort of a greased path to spirituality. Although I tend to talk about them as secular.
Speaker #0
Yeah. I want to ask you about that because I think as you've gone along the years, you've gotten more and more open with your own spirituality, which I love reading because I relate to it. But that's something I've noticed when I'm talking about creativity. A lot of times I'm talking about God, but I'm just not saying the word God. But not saying it makes me feel like I'm withholding something. And I wonder how you think about it when you're maybe feeling similarly, where you're talking about something in a secular way, but to you it's quite spiritual.
Speaker #1
Well, I'm not sure what your question is.
Speaker #0
I mean, like, I feel like I'm withholding very necessary words sometimes when I'm talking about creativity and because I'm not saying the word God, but like it's so about God to me. But I don't want to alienate anyone because I think people who don't believe could. experience it just as well, but I feel discomfort not saying what I'm feeling, I guess. And I'm wondering if you ever experienced that when talking about something in a secular way that you feel is actually spiritual.
Speaker #1
Well, I found myself hesitating to write the guidance book, which is very spiritual. And I'm not surprised. It's a favorite of yours. But what I was afraid of was that people would think I was too woo-woo. And I had a horror of being thought woo-woo. And then I talked to a girlfriend of mine, a Jungian analyst, and she said, Julia, woo-woo is where it's at. And I found myself emboldened by her response. And I started to say, I'm a believer. And I found relief in that. And I recently wrote a list of what I believed. And it went, I believe, in an expansive divine force. I believe that there is a universal force. I believe that its eye is on the sparrow and it takes a kindly view of everyone. And I kept on writing, I believe. And I filled a half a page of notebook with what I believed. And then I shared it with my atheist boyfriend. And sort of felt like I was out of the closet.
Speaker #0
I love that. I might write a belief page after this. You've given me so much material. You know, something we talk about a lot on the podcast is fear. And I used to feel like I needed to eliminate fear. Now I don't feel like that at all. I feel like fear can be our friend. Fear is something to understand. You just don't want it making decisions for you. I wonder for you, what is your relationship with fear like now? And how has it changed over time?
Speaker #1
Well, now I tend to think of fear as being silly, where before I thought of it as the voice of doom. And I find that what has happened to me is that my negative inner critic has become miniaturized. through using warning pages. And what started out as a damning voice that condemned me has come to seem like a wee, peeping, negative voice, like a cartoon character, like a negative relative that always wrecks family picnics. the Now, when I hear from Nigel, as I call him, and it helps to name your critic. And I picked Nigel because it was such a persnickety name. Nigel. And when you hear the peeping voice of your critic, you learn to say, thank you for sharing. And so you're acknowledging the critics negativity, but you're also poking fun at it.
Speaker #0
Yeah. Humor, again, it might be the best tool that we have. You know, I'm wondering what is something in your creative career that you're really proud of yourself for? Is there anything that. comes to mind for you?
Speaker #1
Well, the first thing that came to mind was Writing the Artist's Way. That was my first book. And I feel like in many ways, it's still my best book. And I find myself saying, oh, you couldn't do anything better than that. And the answer is, no, probably not. And I'm proud of having written that book. And I find myself using a book called The Morning Pages Journal, which is filled with quotations from the artist's way. And I read these one-line quotations. And I think, oh, I really believe that.
Speaker #0
Is there ever a time when you read something that you've written or hear a quote read back to you that you've read or said and say, I said that? Do you ever feel surprised by your own work in a good way?
Speaker #1
Yes, I have a book which. It's called Some People Say God Is No Laughing Matter. And it's got a very snippy tone. And it's full of hilarious descriptions of what I call people who are spiritually correct. And I poke fun at them. I feel like when I read the book, I think... Oh, it's too snippy. But this afternoon I was here and I was walking on the treadmill and a girlfriend of mine was sitting on the couch and she picked up the book, the dread book, and opened it up and started laughing out loud. And she said, This is so funny. This is such a good thing that you did this. You were so wise to poke fun. And so I find myself standing corrected.
Speaker #0
I'm happy you were. I want to check that one out. I haven't read it yet. Julia, you have helped millions and millions of people. reconnect with their creativity. When you reflect on your life and work so far, what do you hope your legacy will be?
Speaker #1
That I helped light a lot of lamps, that we had this conversation and then you went off and wrote your book. And that people reading my work were inspired to do their own work. And I sometimes feel like I wish I were better known as an artist and that instead I'm famous as a teacher. And then I say, what better thing to be famous for?
Speaker #0
Yeah. And there's a lot of art in teaching. And also this poetry book, Julia. I feel big things for it. I really do. The poetry has flowed through every single book you've written to the point where I actually thought you'd already written a poetry book. So this feels like a great moment of stepping out and claiming your artistry once again.
Speaker #1
Yes, I hope so. I hope people will go to my website, juliacameronlive.com. It has a great deal of art in it. his plays, it has movies, it has poems, it has songs. And I hope people will spend some time getting to know that.
Speaker #0
Well, we'll make sure that all of our creative cuties do. We're going to put that link in the show notes and we'll be looking out for the poetry book, Cannot Wait. Is there any final word you'd like to leave with the listener?
Speaker #1
I want you to try morning pages. That's my final word. That is my most productive thought. And I feel like if you try them, you will be led forward. And being led forward, you will find yourself discovering probes of creativity within yourself.
Speaker #0
Well, you heard it from the queen herself. Go try those morning pages. Find your troves of creativity. Check out Julia Cameron live.com. Get her new book, the daily artist's way. It's excellent. And Julia, thank you for being a beacon for all of us. And for you inspired me, as you know, this podcast would not exist without your work. I adore you. You are a mentor to me. And I'm just so grateful. that I get to exist in the same timeline as you. Thank you for being here.
Speaker #1
You're very welcome. It was a pleasure to talk to you.
Speaker #0
There you have it, our sixth episode with the queen, the great Julia Cameron. One of the things that I love the most about talking with Julia is that she reminds us that creativity isn't something we have to chase or force. It's something we return to again. and again, and again. So maybe today that looks like writing a few morning pages. Maybe it looks like doing something playful that you love to do as a kid. Maybe it looks like letting yourself want the thing you've been quietly wanting, but afraid to say out loud. Whatever it is, let this be your invitation to begin. You can find Julia, her work, and her incredible books, including The Daily Artist's Way at juliacameronlive.com and follow her on Instagram. at Julia Cameron Live. Be sure to check out her poetry and get excited for that book that's coming out. I love, love her poems. As always, if this episode resonated with you, I'd love for you to share it with a friend or a family member who could use a little bit more creativity and healing in their life. And follow us on socials at Unleash Your Inner Creative and at Lauren LaGrasso. Unleash is executive produced by me, Lauren LaGrasso, and also hosted, and it is edited by Blondel Garcon. I love you and I believe in you. Talk with you next week.

About Unleash Your Inner Creative with Lauren LoGrasso (A Creativity Podcast)

Unleash Your Inner Creative is a Webby Award-winning podcast designed to help you break free from self-doubt, embrace your creativity, and live an authentic, purpose-filled life. I’m Lauren LoGrasso, a multi-passionate creative, and I believe that repressed creativity is one of the root causes of unhappiness—which is why I’m here to help you unleash yours! Through a blend of inspiring interviews, solo episodes, and coaching sessions, this show explores creativity, mental health, spirituality, and self-development.

On the pod, you'll hear from incredible guests like The Artist’s Way author Julia Cameron, How I Built This host Guy Raz, brain coach Jim Kwik, and Codependent No More's Melody Beattie, as well as artists and performers like Chrisette Michele and Hannah Berner. Together, we share the tools and insights to help you rewire your mindset, overcome fear, and follow your heart’s deepest desires. Whether you’re a lifelong creative or just feeling a spark, I invite you to tune in, tap into your true potential, and unleash your inner creative!

New episodes are out every Wednesday - follow, rate and review wherever you get your podcasts :)

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

About Unleash Your Inner Creative with Lauren LoGrasso (A Creativity Podcast)

New episodes are out every Wednesday - follow, rate and review wherever you get your podcasts :)

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Description

If you’ve ever struggled with creative blocks or wondered how to stay creative through ALL of life, you’ll find Julia’s perspective is both grounding and inspiring.

In this episode we discuss:

Check out ALL of Julia’s art and writing: https://juliacameronlive.com/

Follow the show: @unleashyourinnercreative

Follow me: @LaurenLoGrasso

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Transcription

Speaker #0
What if creative bravery isn't always loud and fast? What if sometimes it looks like quietly writing poems for 10 years, never intending to publish them, and then one day deciding, maybe I'm allowed to share this? Today, I'm back with Julia Cameron, author of The Artist's Way and the queen of creativity ourself, for our sixth conversation together on Unleash Your Inner Creative. And somehow, Julia continues to surprise me. In this episode, Julia shares one of her boldest plans yet, her journey to publish her very first book of poetry. We talk about quieting the inner critic and why play, humor, and wonder are not indulgences, but necessities for a creative life. We also dive into her new book, The Daily Artist's Way, 366 Meditations for Creative Living, which is out now. In addition to that, we talk about her current relationship with fear. Her thoughts on AI, which are really interesting and might surprise you. Spirituality, motherhood, discipline, how to find powerful creative collaborators, and why creativity is something we recover, not something we ever have to invent from scratch. We also discuss what she hopes her creative legacy will be and how she views herself as an artist. This conversation feels like an invitation to be playful, to be brave, and to believe deeply in your birthright to creativity. and reinvention. So let's get into it. Here she is, the incredible Julia Cameron. Well, I'm so, so thrilled and honored to be back with you again this year. This is, I think, six years in a row I've had the privilege of talking with you. And so thank you for coming on once again to Unleash Your Inner Creative.
Speaker #1
Well, you're very welcome. We'll try and unleash our inner creative for an hour.
Speaker #0
I know we will. I know we will. And so because I haven't talked to you in a year, I'm wondering what for you in the past year has been a creative highlight?
Speaker #1
Aha. I'm doing something very risky. I'm publishing a book of poetry. And I found myself saying, I know I've written poems in my morning pages journals. And I probably have about 20. And then I had my friend Emma Lively, my colleague, goes through the journals looking for poems. And she found 250. And so she's coming out in a week. And we're going through all 250 poems, deciding which ones are book-worthy. And the idea for writing a book of poetry came to me because, you know, singer Judy Collins?
Speaker #0
Oh, yeah.
Speaker #1
She just published a book of poetry. And I thought if Judy is brave enough, maybe I should be brave enough. And I found that my inner perfectionist. was alive and well when it came to dealing with poems.
Speaker #0
Wow.
Speaker #1
So I'm hoping to be able to resign my perfectionist and feel a sense of wonder at the wit of the poems.
Speaker #0
That is such amazing news. I guess I didn't really... Have you never published a book of poetry before?
Speaker #1
No, I never have. I've put poems... in my other books. And if you go on my website, we've got 50 poems, but I've never published a book of poetry. And I find myself feeling abashed.
Speaker #0
Wow. So I didn't realize that because I love your poems so much. And we've heard them on the podcast several times. And I think of them often, actually. So. I'm excited this is going to be in the world so we can all read what you've been up to for years on end, just writing in these amazing pages. But you're talking about the inner critic. How are you working through that as you go toward this and like remaining in excitement for this incredible new thing you're doing?
Speaker #1
Well, I'm saying to myself, Nigel, Nigel is my inner critic. Nigel, you're not invited to comment. And I found myself looking through an old book of mine called God is No Laughing Matter. I found a poem in the book that I forgot having written. And the first two lines of the poem are, when God tired of using words, he expressed himself in birds.
Speaker #0
I love that. Yeah, I can't wait. That's going to be a joy to read. So is that going to be your 2026 publication, you think, the poetry book?
Speaker #1
Maybe about a year.
Speaker #0
Okay.
Speaker #1
And I'm starting something called Cameron Press, which is where I'm going to self-publish a number of books. And I'm talking to my literary agent, Susan Rayhoffer, about whether or not I should self-publish the poetry book or whether she should take it out for sale. And. She successfully sold Judy's book. So I'm thinking that perhaps I should let it go the usual course and put it up for sale.
Speaker #0
It sounds like this past year has been such a fruitful year when it comes to starting new things.
Speaker #1
Well, I find myself feeling excited. feeling sort of prosperous and feeling like I can set an example by publishing poetry. People will not be expecting it. And maybe they will think, oh, she's brave and just a little bit foolish.
Speaker #0
Which we all could use to be. And it reminds me of this thing because obviously I read. the daily artist's way. I'm reading my way through it because it is a daily practice. But I love one of these affirmations you had in the beginning. My creativity is a healing source for me and for others. And then there was another one where you said something about my creativity basically inspires other people to be creative as well. And this seems like a great example of that.
Speaker #1
Yes. I said to Judy, you realize you've inspired me. And she said, I did? What a wonderful thing. She said, I love thinking that my poetry inspired your poetry and my book inspired your book.
Speaker #0
Because it always does, right? It has ripple effects and creativity begets creativity, not only in ourselves, but in others. The more that you put out there, the more likely it is for somebody to see it and say, well, maybe I could do that too.
Speaker #1
Yes. Maybe I could do that too is the perfect phrase.
Speaker #0
Yeah. I love that. And I think that the world needs so much more of that right now because I live in LA and it's an interesting time in Hollywood. I'm sure you've heard, but there's a lot of instability here right now because of the strikes. There's a lot of people I know who are packing up their bags and... deciding that they're going away from their creative career, going towards something more stable. And I'm wondering, for the people that are sticking around, but maybe in a hard time creatively, what advice would you have for them on how to move forward and maintain optimistic, even when there seems to be a lot of evidence around them that things aren't going well?
Speaker #1
Well, this is where I sound like a fanatic. where I get to say, well, what I think you need to do is write morning pages and telling them to get up in the morning, put their pen to paper, and write out their thoughts. And I think that if they do a practice of morning pages, they will retain optimism. And I think that Morning Pages... are sort of witness to our lives. And I can see you nodding.
Speaker #0
I've been doing them, Julia. I've been doing them. I've been good.
Speaker #1
And I've been getting good reports from this Daily Artist Way book.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
But people are finding it is an easy goad to writing. And I had somebody come over this afternoon. And she said, I couldn't write, and now I'm writing two pages a day.
Speaker #0
Wow. Yeah, I always marvel at your consistency. And you do, you really are a disciplined person, I think, because I know how loyal you've been to your artists, to your morning pages, and to your daily writing. How do you find the beauty and the holiness in discipline? Because sometimes I'm a little rebel and I can feel myself being like, well, I don't want to do it today. And I don't think I should have to do it today. So how do you find the beauty and the freedom in that kind of discipline?
Speaker #1
Well, I had a review recently that said Julia's tools are simple and repetitive. And I think it was intended as an insult. And I thought, no, it's a compliment. Tools should be simple and repetitive. and tools. should encourage us and they should give us hope. And how I find beauty is, as I said, I have written poems in my morning pages. And I have a boyfriend. I was 75 years old and I said, never have another lover. It's over. And so just enjoy being single. And I was sort of settling into being single when I met him. And his name is Brian Thomas. And I'm dedicating the poetry book to him. This book goes to Brian Thomas, who told me that my poems had promise. and I think it's important that we surround ourselves with positive people, and I think it's something that I call believing mirrors, and believing mirrors are people who reflect back to us our strength and our possibility. When you tell them you're going to publish a book of poetry, they say, wonderful. They don't say. Oh, dear. And so I think a believing mirror is somebody who gives you hope and expresses your own courage back to you.
Speaker #0
I actually I've started doing keynotes, Julia, and I quote you in them often. And I bring up the believing mirrors because I think it's one of the most powerful images for people because. It's really hard to pursue a creative path in complete isolation. And when you don't have anybody reflecting back to you, it can just feel like, is this even real? Like, I don't know. Like, it feels like, yeah, like you're making art in a cave, which can be fun for a while. But sometimes you want to make it in community.
Speaker #1
Yes, I think that's true. And I think... Morning pages are one source of witness, and they reflect back to you your dreams, your hopes, your desires. And then I think you need people who tell you that's not crazy. And a believing mirror is somebody who doesn't say you're crazy. It's somebody who says to you, you're probably right. Why don't you try it? And that expression, why don't you try it, is very powerful. And that's something that believing mirrors say to you all the time. Why don't you try it, Lauren?
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
So have you got something that you're cooking up that you're feeling shy about?
Speaker #0
Well, since you asked, Julie, I actually really want to write a book. It makes me want to cry a little bit saying it out loud to you. But yeah, like that. It's a big dream of mine.
Speaker #1
And when you write in your morning pages, I want to write a book. What do your pages say?
Speaker #0
Yes.
Speaker #1
Yes, you can.
Speaker #0
Yeah. They encourage me. And guidance does, too. I did guidance right before I came on. That one has been the most astounding to me. Guidance.
Speaker #1
We should explain to people that guidance is asking the universe directly for something that is... positive. And you say, what about X? And you put down, what about a book? And guidance says, I'll bet you can do it. And guidance is always positive. It's always prompting you to move forward. It's always gentle. And sometimes people are afraid to ask the universe for advice. But my experience with it is that for 30 years now, I've asked the universe for advice and the universe has given me kindly advice.
Speaker #0
Always. It's kind and it's honest and loving and encouraging. And sometimes the things that your hand writes as you're asking the questions really shocks me. I'm like. Like, where did that come from?
Speaker #1
And the answer is, well, I keep talking about my inner eight-year-old and my inner eight-year-old is positive. And so when I ask, where did that come from? The inner eight-year-old says, from me.
Speaker #0
I was wondering about little Julie, actually, when I was thinking about our conversation. Is there anything you've learned from your younger self? specifically in the past couple years that surprised you and that you've brought into your creative life?
Speaker #1
I think the poetry is a good example. I wrote 250 poems over a 10-year period. That's 25 poems a year. That's a sense of optimism. And I think that It surprises me. You know, like I said, I thought I had 20 poems. And here I had a prodigious number of poems. And I found myself feeling greatly encouraged and a little bit magical. You know, like I said, the poem about birds. When God got tired of using words, he expressed himself in birds. I love the whimsy of that. I found that the poems were full of whimsy. I'm going to put them in a book, and I'm going to make the print large so that people reading it... can also have a sense of whimsy instead of squinting at the page.
Speaker #0
That sounds great because I haven't been wearing my glasses very much, and I would like to be able to read it without my glasses.
Speaker #1
Well, that's what I'm designing.
Speaker #0
You know, that's something you talk about a lot, and I think something so important to remind people of is that a lot of times, like, we're not afraid to do the work, right? You say that you'll give people morning pages and they're like, great. I'll do the morning pages. Great. I'm happy to do anything that's like hard work effort that I have to get through. But when you tell them to go on an artist date, they're like, wait a second here. I don't know how to do that. Have fun. Have a fun festive moment. That sounds hard. Why is fun and play such a vital part of keeping your creativity alive?
Speaker #1
Well, I think it's essential. I think having a sense of play gives you a sense of wonder, and having a sense of wonder gives you a sense of possibility. And I think that we are trained to believe that creativity is hard. And so morning pages are hard. And we... intuitively think, oh, they will probably work. But if I say play, they say, what does play have to do with creativity? I don't get it. And I will say, well, we have an expression, the play of ideas, but we don't realize that it's a prescription. play, and you will have ideas.
Speaker #0
It's so true, too, because if we look back at our early creativity, it all happened in play. make-believe. We were coloring with our friends or our siblings. You know, all these things happened in a state of play and imagination. And then we get older and we think we can work our way into being creative or into our art. And yeah, sometimes you can, but if you don't have that layer of play, you're leaving a lot of magic on the table.
Speaker #1
Yes. That's a great way to put it, Leaving magic on the table.
Speaker #0
Yeah. You know. In the book and in your work, you talk so much about creative recovery, which I really relate to. I talk a lot and think a lot about like creative wounds and like how we ended up getting shut down in the first place and how we can remember and unleash in our current moment. But why do you use that phrase recovery? Why is that something important to state when somebody is going through this artist's way process or unleashing their inner creative process?
Speaker #1
Well, I think... Recovery is a literal term. We're out to re-cover the distance that we have traveled away from our creativity. So I like the word recovery rather than the word discovery, although they're closely related.
Speaker #0
That really touches my heart. I've never ever, I don't think I've ever heard you say that, but it's so true because I always say. Creativity isn't something we have to conjure up. It's just something we have to remember. But that image of walking back to the place where the wound happened and then just bringing that part of yourself into the present moment is so visceral and beautiful.
Speaker #1
I hope so.
Speaker #0
It is. It is. Your hope is fulfilled. I'm wondering in the book, there's so many amazing meditations. Do you have a favorite one?
Speaker #1
There's a passage in the book where it talks about inspiration. And it says, inspiration is not something sudden and powerful. It's something subtle and nuanced. And so when you're looking for inspiration, look to your senses and let your senses guide you. And I think the idea that there's a still small voice within us which whispers a sense of possibility and I'm going to keep you to your word about this book of yours. And I have an exercise that you might want to try.
Speaker #0
Okay.
Speaker #1
So the reason I can't write a book is... and the number from 1 to 10, and take a look at what your fears are. I'll write a book, and it won't be any good. I'll write a book, and nobody will want to publish it. I'll write a book, and nobody will want to read it. And you put your fears down, and you see that they're all grounded in the negative. It's very possible that you'll write a book and everybody will want to read it. And you'll write a book and everybody will fight to publish it. So you take your negative thought and you turn it into a positive affirmation. And then you have 10 reasons why you can write a book. I instead of 10 reasons why you can't.
Speaker #0
Wow. I definitely need to do that because you named some of my fears for sure. Do you have any because you are such a prolific author? Do you have any advice for me or anyone out there who is interested in writing a book on? Yeah. Like what what comes to mind? Like when you talk to young authors or. young writers who are interested or any age writers who are interested in doing this for the first time, what is your advice to them?
Speaker #1
I would tell them to write morning pages that will open the door. And then I will tell them to begin and to begin with where they are. And so you might find yourselves saying. I'm sitting in my studio. It's a room I designed myself with the help of my inner eight-year-old. I call it my cloud room. And so I find it's a wonderful place. for me to begin saying, what are my cloud thoughts? And my cloud thoughts are positive. And so I'm going to say, I'm going to write a positive sentence about a book. And that is, here I am, at last, beginning.
Speaker #0
My book just got started with Julia Cameron. I mean, come on. What could be better than that? Oh, man, that makes me so excited. You know, Julia, I think one of the things you hit on when you were saying potential fears around writing the book is something that I do struggle with. I am a very creative person, but I'm also a very driven person. And today it's interesting. You've uplifted me so much. I'm feeling so positive talking with you. But I was feeling really down on myself and a little disappointed earlier. Like I haven't done enough. I should be doing more in my creative career. I'm feeling disappointed like it hasn't taken off the way I thought it should. And I'm putting that in quotes. When you feel that way, or if you ever feel that way, what is your first line of defense? Like, how do you talk yourself off the ledge?
Speaker #1
I write a silly poem. This little poem goes out to me. I find I need it to feel free. I'm writing a poem at my best. I'm writing a poem at the behest of my inner poet who knows the best. So you just write a ditty like that. And I think that what we don't realize is the place that humor plays in creativity. And I think humor is something which opens a doorway for us. So when I'm feeling discouraged, I write something humorous. And I will tell you the story of how this began. I wrote a crime novel called The Dark Room, and it got 19 good reviews. And then the 20th review came in, and unfortunately, it was in the New York Times. And it was negative. The writer was outraged that my... detective hero was a Jungian. He evidently was a Freudian. So he didn't believe in serendipity. He didn't believe in the luck that the detective was having chasing down clues. And he published a very negative review. that was all about how much he hated Carl Jung and how foolish he thought Jungians were. And so I read the review, and I was heart sick. I thought, oh, my God, I've been shamed in the New York Times. The 19 good reviews went down the drain, and the negative reviews. stood on its own. Then I remembered humor. This little poem goes out to Bill Kent, who must feel awful the way that he spent his time critiquing Carl Jung instead of on the work I'd done. And immediately, I felt better. I felt like... I've taken my power back. I'm not letting this man have his way. And I thought from then on out, whatever I'm criticized unfairly, this little poem goes out to me. I find myself needing to be free. I have been told. I am the worst, and that makes me feel I'm cursed. But the little poems are very helpful.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
They give you a sense of levity, and they give you, most of all, a sense of power. Another example of something you can do about your book is you can write a negative poem. This little poem is about my book. I find I haven't dared to look at all the good that could be done if only I had a sense of fun.
Speaker #0
Are you freestyling these? They're so good.
Speaker #1
I'm freestyling them.
Speaker #0
Julia Cameron, the freestyle poet. Okay, put that in the New York Times. I'm ready to see it there. That is great advice. And it is important to have a sense of humor because a lot of times, something I do sometimes is if I'm like having a mental breakdown, I literally audio record it and then listen back to myself. Because usually the things that I'm thinking and saying are absolutely ridiculous. And like, way beyond the situation and what it calls for. So I find having that reflection is helpful. But the poem is such a fun, festive way to do that. And that's creative, too. Rather than like crying into my phone, I could cry and write my poem.
Speaker #1
And there is a rhyme there.
Speaker #0
Yes. See, you're rubbing off on me. This is good. I'm getting the Julia energy. You know, There's something I wanted to ask you about just because I'm super curious about it. And it's something that is on everyone's mind right now. And I've not heard you talk about it. What are your thoughts on AI for creatives? Like, what are your thoughts on it in general? And then as it pertains to creatives?
Speaker #1
Well, I think we need to stop thinking of it as a threat and start thinking of AI as a support. And. learn the type of question that it responds to gladly. And I think it can be a wonderful, useful thing if we just stop thinking, oh, it's stealing my thunder. If we start thinking of it as, oh, it's a support. It's a help. People worry about... AI taking over the world and that there's no place for creativity. And my experience with it is that it actually can help, but you need to ask it to help.
Speaker #0
Do you utilize it at all? And if so, what have you found it to be most effective for?
Speaker #1
The boyfriend that I mentioned prior has written a wonderful book, and it's with an editor right now, and she just mailed him back. I loved it.
Speaker #0
Yay.
Speaker #1
And he double-checked his work against AI. He would say, is there anything that can be done to make this chapter? stronger. And by casting it in a positive light, he found he got positive feedback. Yes, you can make it stronger if you include more details of her appearance. People are wondering what she looks like. And I think that the process of using AI, which at first I was threatened. He told me he was using AI to double-check things, and I thought, what's wrong with the human brain? What's wrong with using an editor? And he persisted, and he found himself. feeling reinforced. I found myself thinking, he's on to something here. And he was so open-minded about AI. He was very willing to be led. And he said sometimes he would get advice that didn't seem good to him. And so he wouldn't use it. And I think that that's... where discernment comes in, in dealing with AI, what seems sensible and reasonable and exciting, and what just seems ill-footed. So I think we have to remember that we don't need to hang our brains at the door.
Speaker #0
That's a great quote. I mean, I think the only problem comes when, like you said, people are outsourcing their own intuition and creativity to it completely. They're not doing any of that question of, hmm, does that actually make sense? Is that good advice? Is it even true? They're just taking it as gospel because it's not. It's, you know, it's got a lot of great information, but it isn't a source of absolute truth. So if you're using it as a idea generator or a creative partner, it can be great as long as you're not outsourcing your own intuition and creativity to it completely.
Speaker #1
I agree.
Speaker #0
I love getting your take on that. So you have no fear that AI is going to replace human creativity in any way?
Speaker #1
No, I don't think so.
Speaker #0
Good. I'm glad to hear it. I trust you. I don't think so either. I mean, that was part of why I started the podcast, because. AI can replicate human creativity, but it can't be creative. I wanted to go into another little piece of advice I'm curious to get from you. So, Julia, I have some big news. I know you're a mother, and I actually just found out I'm pregnant.
Speaker #1
Aha.
Speaker #0
Yeah. As we're recording. What did you say?
Speaker #1
I said, no wonder you're glowing.
Speaker #0
Oh, thank you. Yeah, I'm really excited. I got married over the summer and then, you know, I'm now nine weeks pregnant. So it's really exciting. The baby's due in August. And I know you have an amazing daughter. And so I'm curious from your perspective, how did becoming a mother change or enhance your creativity? And any advice you might have for me as an expecting mother?
Speaker #1
To be excited. to allow yourself to be thrilled, to allow yourself to think, there are so many things that I can teach this child. And I put a Rolling Stones album on and watched her light up. And I thought, we don't need to be pious. We don't need... to abandon our previous loves, we can share them with this child. And so my daughter grew up loving rock and roll.
Speaker #0
And how did it, if anything, like, how did it change you as a writer, having a daughter? Like, how did motherhood change or enhance your writing, if at all?
Speaker #1
Well, I think you're asking a book. question again. Like, will I be struck mute by motherhood? And the answer is no, you won't be. You'll be able to write. You'll be able to write fondly. And I think that when you say to yourself, I am... scared of motherhood, what you're doing is you're negating all of the prime mothers who have come before you and who have proved for themselves that creativity and motherhood can go hand in glove. So I would look around and be careful of who you talk to because you People will tell you that motherhood and creativity don't mix. And my experience is just the opposite. Motherhood and creativity go very well together.
Speaker #0
I really do trust that. I mean, I do have some fears just because there's so much unknown. But every single woman I've had on my podcast has had their greatest creative success after having. a child or children. So I feel like obviously I'm not doing a scientific study, but the numbers don't lie. You know, that's a lot of proof. So I really appreciate your advice. And that's good advice to stay with people who are positive about it and see how fruitful it is in every way. And I've been thinking, too, about, you know, you're such an amazing teacher and this prolific artist. You have so much writing under your belt that you've shared with the world. Does your creativity shift at all when you're going between being a writer? or then like into a teacher? Is it the same source? How does the creativity shift between the different things you do?
Speaker #1
I don't think of it as shifting. I think of it as listening for the impulse. And it's when I sit down to write, I'm listening for the impulse to write. When I'm standing up teaching, I'm listening for the impulse of what to say. And so I don't think of it as, let me say, I was afraid when I first started teaching that it would take away my creativity. And what I found was that as I told people how to stay creative themselves, I heard the message. And that actually... more creativity poured forth for me. And I think that I was being led, you know, I think I had a limited God concept. And I think I was believing in a punitive God. a God who would take away a good thing and punish me. And I started praying to a line from Dylan Thomas, The forest that's a green fuse drives the flower. And I found myself thinking, God is expansive. God is creative. God is festive. We don't have one pink flower, we have hundreds. And snowflakes are the ultimate exercise in creative glee. And I found myself thinking that it was going to be all right, that my creativity was a gift. using my creativity was something I was intended to do, not something I would be punished for.
Speaker #0
And I have to highly recommend the book you wrote about guidance, especially if somebody had grew up with a God that was the way Julia was explaining God before, like more of a punitive God versus an all loving, fun, expansive God, it helps you really create your own spiritual practice. And I just think it's so important for creatives. And I've known people along the years who haven't been able to find some sort of spiritual practice because they grew up with that idea. And it's really, I think, a great invitation to find your own form of spirituality.
Speaker #1
Yes, the book was called Living the Artist's Way.
Speaker #0
Living the Artist's Way. It's a great one. That's one of my favorites of yours.
Speaker #1
The subtitle is An Intuitive Path to Greater Creativity.
Speaker #0
Yeah. I mean, actually, I would like to ask a question because I'm thinking of one friend that I have right now who is a staunch atheist and is also, though, very curious about spirituality, but hasn't found what her thing is yet. If you could talk, because I know your boyfriend also was or maybe is still an atheist, but has found great wonder in doing the morning pages. So if you could talk to somebody who is maybe in that situation right now about how to begin to develop their own version of spirituality, what would you say to them?
Speaker #1
I would say it's none of my business. I have an atheist boyfriend. And I talk to him sometimes and say, you mean you really believe? there's nothing? And he will say, yes, I really believe there's nothing. And I have believed it since I was a teenager. And I will say, well, I believe there's something. I'm a believer. I believe that there is an expanded. divine force working through all things, and that it made animals, and it made trees in their infinite variety. And I don't convince him to not be an atheist. I don't say to him, well, Here's how you can start to believe. But I will say to him, can you say an atheist prayer for me? And I believe the higher power is listening. And he will say, God help your servant, Julia. And I believe God listens.
Speaker #0
I love that. An atheist prayer. Yeah. And I was more wondering, like, I'm not saying to convince somebody to believe in God. I don't believe in pushing my beliefs on anyone. It's more for people who don't currently have a spiritual practice, but long for that and are looking for one. That was more of my question. How can they start to form a spiritual practice?
Speaker #1
And that brings me back to my usual response. Try Morning Pages. And what you will find is a sense of optimism and connection. I think of the Morning Pages as sort of a greased path to spirituality. Although I tend to talk about them as secular.
Speaker #0
Yeah. I want to ask you about that because I think as you've gone along the years, you've gotten more and more open with your own spirituality, which I love reading because I relate to it. But that's something I've noticed when I'm talking about creativity. A lot of times I'm talking about God, but I'm just not saying the word God. But not saying it makes me feel like I'm withholding something. And I wonder how you think about it when you're maybe feeling similarly, where you're talking about something in a secular way, but to you it's quite spiritual.
Speaker #1
Well, I'm not sure what your question is.
Speaker #0
I mean, like, I feel like I'm withholding very necessary words sometimes when I'm talking about creativity and because I'm not saying the word God, but like it's so about God to me. But I don't want to alienate anyone because I think people who don't believe could. experience it just as well, but I feel discomfort not saying what I'm feeling, I guess. And I'm wondering if you ever experienced that when talking about something in a secular way that you feel is actually spiritual.
Speaker #1
Well, I found myself hesitating to write the guidance book, which is very spiritual. And I'm not surprised. It's a favorite of yours. But what I was afraid of was that people would think I was too woo-woo. And I had a horror of being thought woo-woo. And then I talked to a girlfriend of mine, a Jungian analyst, and she said, Julia, woo-woo is where it's at. And I found myself emboldened by her response. And I started to say, I'm a believer. And I found relief in that. And I recently wrote a list of what I believed. And it went, I believe, in an expansive divine force. I believe that there is a universal force. I believe that its eye is on the sparrow and it takes a kindly view of everyone. And I kept on writing, I believe. And I filled a half a page of notebook with what I believed. And then I shared it with my atheist boyfriend. And sort of felt like I was out of the closet.
Speaker #0
I love that. I might write a belief page after this. You've given me so much material. You know, something we talk about a lot on the podcast is fear. And I used to feel like I needed to eliminate fear. Now I don't feel like that at all. I feel like fear can be our friend. Fear is something to understand. You just don't want it making decisions for you. I wonder for you, what is your relationship with fear like now? And how has it changed over time?
Speaker #1
Well, now I tend to think of fear as being silly, where before I thought of it as the voice of doom. And I find that what has happened to me is that my negative inner critic has become miniaturized. through using warning pages. And what started out as a damning voice that condemned me has come to seem like a wee, peeping, negative voice, like a cartoon character, like a negative relative that always wrecks family picnics. the Now, when I hear from Nigel, as I call him, and it helps to name your critic. And I picked Nigel because it was such a persnickety name. Nigel. And when you hear the peeping voice of your critic, you learn to say, thank you for sharing. And so you're acknowledging the critics negativity, but you're also poking fun at it.
Speaker #0
Yeah. Humor, again, it might be the best tool that we have. You know, I'm wondering what is something in your creative career that you're really proud of yourself for? Is there anything that. comes to mind for you?
Speaker #1
Well, the first thing that came to mind was Writing the Artist's Way. That was my first book. And I feel like in many ways, it's still my best book. And I find myself saying, oh, you couldn't do anything better than that. And the answer is, no, probably not. And I'm proud of having written that book. And I find myself using a book called The Morning Pages Journal, which is filled with quotations from the artist's way. And I read these one-line quotations. And I think, oh, I really believe that.
Speaker #0
Is there ever a time when you read something that you've written or hear a quote read back to you that you've read or said and say, I said that? Do you ever feel surprised by your own work in a good way?
Speaker #1
Yes, I have a book which. It's called Some People Say God Is No Laughing Matter. And it's got a very snippy tone. And it's full of hilarious descriptions of what I call people who are spiritually correct. And I poke fun at them. I feel like when I read the book, I think... Oh, it's too snippy. But this afternoon I was here and I was walking on the treadmill and a girlfriend of mine was sitting on the couch and she picked up the book, the dread book, and opened it up and started laughing out loud. And she said, This is so funny. This is such a good thing that you did this. You were so wise to poke fun. And so I find myself standing corrected.
Speaker #0
I'm happy you were. I want to check that one out. I haven't read it yet. Julia, you have helped millions and millions of people. reconnect with their creativity. When you reflect on your life and work so far, what do you hope your legacy will be?
Speaker #1
That I helped light a lot of lamps, that we had this conversation and then you went off and wrote your book. And that people reading my work were inspired to do their own work. And I sometimes feel like I wish I were better known as an artist and that instead I'm famous as a teacher. And then I say, what better thing to be famous for?
Speaker #0
Yeah. And there's a lot of art in teaching. And also this poetry book, Julia. I feel big things for it. I really do. The poetry has flowed through every single book you've written to the point where I actually thought you'd already written a poetry book. So this feels like a great moment of stepping out and claiming your artistry once again.
Speaker #1
Yes, I hope so. I hope people will go to my website, juliacameronlive.com. It has a great deal of art in it. his plays, it has movies, it has poems, it has songs. And I hope people will spend some time getting to know that.
Speaker #0
Well, we'll make sure that all of our creative cuties do. We're going to put that link in the show notes and we'll be looking out for the poetry book, Cannot Wait. Is there any final word you'd like to leave with the listener?
Speaker #1
I want you to try morning pages. That's my final word. That is my most productive thought. And I feel like if you try them, you will be led forward. And being led forward, you will find yourself discovering probes of creativity within yourself.
Speaker #0
Well, you heard it from the queen herself. Go try those morning pages. Find your troves of creativity. Check out Julia Cameron live.com. Get her new book, the daily artist's way. It's excellent. And Julia, thank you for being a beacon for all of us. And for you inspired me, as you know, this podcast would not exist without your work. I adore you. You are a mentor to me. And I'm just so grateful. that I get to exist in the same timeline as you. Thank you for being here.
Speaker #1
You're very welcome. It was a pleasure to talk to you.
Speaker #0
There you have it, our sixth episode with the queen, the great Julia Cameron. One of the things that I love the most about talking with Julia is that she reminds us that creativity isn't something we have to chase or force. It's something we return to again. and again, and again. So maybe today that looks like writing a few morning pages. Maybe it looks like doing something playful that you love to do as a kid. Maybe it looks like letting yourself want the thing you've been quietly wanting, but afraid to say out loud. Whatever it is, let this be your invitation to begin. You can find Julia, her work, and her incredible books, including The Daily Artist's Way at juliacameronlive.com and follow her on Instagram. at Julia Cameron Live. Be sure to check out her poetry and get excited for that book that's coming out. I love, love her poems. As always, if this episode resonated with you, I'd love for you to share it with a friend or a family member who could use a little bit more creativity and healing in their life. And follow us on socials at Unleash Your Inner Creative and at Lauren LaGrasso. Unleash is executive produced by me, Lauren LaGrasso, and also hosted, and it is edited by Blondel Garcon. I love you and I believe in you. Talk with you next week.

About Unleash Your Inner Creative with Lauren LoGrasso (A Creativity Podcast)

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About Unleash Your Inner Creative with Lauren LoGrasso (A Creativity Podcast)

New episodes are out every Wednesday - follow, rate and review wherever you get your podcasts :)

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If you’ve ever struggled with creative blocks or wondered how to stay creative through ALL of life, you’ll find Julia’s perspective is both grounding and inspiring.

In this episode we discuss:

Check out ALL of Julia’s art and writing: https://juliacameronlive.com/

Follow the show: @unleashyourinnercreative

Follow me: @LaurenLoGrasso

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Transcription

Speaker #0
What if creative bravery isn't always loud and fast? What if sometimes it looks like quietly writing poems for 10 years, never intending to publish them, and then one day deciding, maybe I'm allowed to share this? Today, I'm back with Julia Cameron, author of The Artist's Way and the queen of creativity ourself, for our sixth conversation together on Unleash Your Inner Creative. And somehow, Julia continues to surprise me. In this episode, Julia shares one of her boldest plans yet, her journey to publish her very first book of poetry. We talk about quieting the inner critic and why play, humor, and wonder are not indulgences, but necessities for a creative life. We also dive into her new book, The Daily Artist's Way, 366 Meditations for Creative Living, which is out now. In addition to that, we talk about her current relationship with fear. Her thoughts on AI, which are really interesting and might surprise you. Spirituality, motherhood, discipline, how to find powerful creative collaborators, and why creativity is something we recover, not something we ever have to invent from scratch. We also discuss what she hopes her creative legacy will be and how she views herself as an artist. This conversation feels like an invitation to be playful, to be brave, and to believe deeply in your birthright to creativity. and reinvention. So let's get into it. Here she is, the incredible Julia Cameron. Well, I'm so, so thrilled and honored to be back with you again this year. This is, I think, six years in a row I've had the privilege of talking with you. And so thank you for coming on once again to Unleash Your Inner Creative.
Speaker #1
Well, you're very welcome. We'll try and unleash our inner creative for an hour.
Speaker #0
I know we will. I know we will. And so because I haven't talked to you in a year, I'm wondering what for you in the past year has been a creative highlight?
Speaker #1
Aha. I'm doing something very risky. I'm publishing a book of poetry. And I found myself saying, I know I've written poems in my morning pages journals. And I probably have about 20. And then I had my friend Emma Lively, my colleague, goes through the journals looking for poems. And she found 250. And so she's coming out in a week. And we're going through all 250 poems, deciding which ones are book-worthy. And the idea for writing a book of poetry came to me because, you know, singer Judy Collins?
Speaker #0
Oh, yeah.
Speaker #1
She just published a book of poetry. And I thought if Judy is brave enough, maybe I should be brave enough. And I found that my inner perfectionist. was alive and well when it came to dealing with poems.
Speaker #0
Wow.
Speaker #1
So I'm hoping to be able to resign my perfectionist and feel a sense of wonder at the wit of the poems.
Speaker #0
That is such amazing news. I guess I didn't really... Have you never published a book of poetry before?
Speaker #1
No, I never have. I've put poems... in my other books. And if you go on my website, we've got 50 poems, but I've never published a book of poetry. And I find myself feeling abashed.
Speaker #0
Wow. So I didn't realize that because I love your poems so much. And we've heard them on the podcast several times. And I think of them often, actually. So. I'm excited this is going to be in the world so we can all read what you've been up to for years on end, just writing in these amazing pages. But you're talking about the inner critic. How are you working through that as you go toward this and like remaining in excitement for this incredible new thing you're doing?
Speaker #1
Well, I'm saying to myself, Nigel, Nigel is my inner critic. Nigel, you're not invited to comment. And I found myself looking through an old book of mine called God is No Laughing Matter. I found a poem in the book that I forgot having written. And the first two lines of the poem are, when God tired of using words, he expressed himself in birds.
Speaker #0
I love that. Yeah, I can't wait. That's going to be a joy to read. So is that going to be your 2026 publication, you think, the poetry book?
Speaker #1
Maybe about a year.
Speaker #0
Okay.
Speaker #1
And I'm starting something called Cameron Press, which is where I'm going to self-publish a number of books. And I'm talking to my literary agent, Susan Rayhoffer, about whether or not I should self-publish the poetry book or whether she should take it out for sale. And. She successfully sold Judy's book. So I'm thinking that perhaps I should let it go the usual course and put it up for sale.
Speaker #0
It sounds like this past year has been such a fruitful year when it comes to starting new things.
Speaker #1
Well, I find myself feeling excited. feeling sort of prosperous and feeling like I can set an example by publishing poetry. People will not be expecting it. And maybe they will think, oh, she's brave and just a little bit foolish.
Speaker #0
Which we all could use to be. And it reminds me of this thing because obviously I read. the daily artist's way. I'm reading my way through it because it is a daily practice. But I love one of these affirmations you had in the beginning. My creativity is a healing source for me and for others. And then there was another one where you said something about my creativity basically inspires other people to be creative as well. And this seems like a great example of that.
Speaker #1
Yes. I said to Judy, you realize you've inspired me. And she said, I did? What a wonderful thing. She said, I love thinking that my poetry inspired your poetry and my book inspired your book.
Speaker #0
Because it always does, right? It has ripple effects and creativity begets creativity, not only in ourselves, but in others. The more that you put out there, the more likely it is for somebody to see it and say, well, maybe I could do that too.
Speaker #1
Yes. Maybe I could do that too is the perfect phrase.
Speaker #0
Yeah. I love that. And I think that the world needs so much more of that right now because I live in LA and it's an interesting time in Hollywood. I'm sure you've heard, but there's a lot of instability here right now because of the strikes. There's a lot of people I know who are packing up their bags and... deciding that they're going away from their creative career, going towards something more stable. And I'm wondering, for the people that are sticking around, but maybe in a hard time creatively, what advice would you have for them on how to move forward and maintain optimistic, even when there seems to be a lot of evidence around them that things aren't going well?
Speaker #1
Well, this is where I sound like a fanatic. where I get to say, well, what I think you need to do is write morning pages and telling them to get up in the morning, put their pen to paper, and write out their thoughts. And I think that if they do a practice of morning pages, they will retain optimism. And I think that Morning Pages... are sort of witness to our lives. And I can see you nodding.
Speaker #0
I've been doing them, Julia. I've been doing them. I've been good.
Speaker #1
And I've been getting good reports from this Daily Artist Way book.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
But people are finding it is an easy goad to writing. And I had somebody come over this afternoon. And she said, I couldn't write, and now I'm writing two pages a day.
Speaker #0
Wow. Yeah, I always marvel at your consistency. And you do, you really are a disciplined person, I think, because I know how loyal you've been to your artists, to your morning pages, and to your daily writing. How do you find the beauty and the holiness in discipline? Because sometimes I'm a little rebel and I can feel myself being like, well, I don't want to do it today. And I don't think I should have to do it today. So how do you find the beauty and the freedom in that kind of discipline?
Speaker #1
Well, I had a review recently that said Julia's tools are simple and repetitive. And I think it was intended as an insult. And I thought, no, it's a compliment. Tools should be simple and repetitive. and tools. should encourage us and they should give us hope. And how I find beauty is, as I said, I have written poems in my morning pages. And I have a boyfriend. I was 75 years old and I said, never have another lover. It's over. And so just enjoy being single. And I was sort of settling into being single when I met him. And his name is Brian Thomas. And I'm dedicating the poetry book to him. This book goes to Brian Thomas, who told me that my poems had promise. and I think it's important that we surround ourselves with positive people, and I think it's something that I call believing mirrors, and believing mirrors are people who reflect back to us our strength and our possibility. When you tell them you're going to publish a book of poetry, they say, wonderful. They don't say. Oh, dear. And so I think a believing mirror is somebody who gives you hope and expresses your own courage back to you.
Speaker #0
I actually I've started doing keynotes, Julia, and I quote you in them often. And I bring up the believing mirrors because I think it's one of the most powerful images for people because. It's really hard to pursue a creative path in complete isolation. And when you don't have anybody reflecting back to you, it can just feel like, is this even real? Like, I don't know. Like, it feels like, yeah, like you're making art in a cave, which can be fun for a while. But sometimes you want to make it in community.
Speaker #1
Yes, I think that's true. And I think... Morning pages are one source of witness, and they reflect back to you your dreams, your hopes, your desires. And then I think you need people who tell you that's not crazy. And a believing mirror is somebody who doesn't say you're crazy. It's somebody who says to you, you're probably right. Why don't you try it? And that expression, why don't you try it, is very powerful. And that's something that believing mirrors say to you all the time. Why don't you try it, Lauren?
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
So have you got something that you're cooking up that you're feeling shy about?
Speaker #0
Well, since you asked, Julie, I actually really want to write a book. It makes me want to cry a little bit saying it out loud to you. But yeah, like that. It's a big dream of mine.
Speaker #1
And when you write in your morning pages, I want to write a book. What do your pages say?
Speaker #0
Yes.
Speaker #1
Yes, you can.
Speaker #0
Yeah. They encourage me. And guidance does, too. I did guidance right before I came on. That one has been the most astounding to me. Guidance.
Speaker #1
We should explain to people that guidance is asking the universe directly for something that is... positive. And you say, what about X? And you put down, what about a book? And guidance says, I'll bet you can do it. And guidance is always positive. It's always prompting you to move forward. It's always gentle. And sometimes people are afraid to ask the universe for advice. But my experience with it is that for 30 years now, I've asked the universe for advice and the universe has given me kindly advice.
Speaker #0
Always. It's kind and it's honest and loving and encouraging. And sometimes the things that your hand writes as you're asking the questions really shocks me. I'm like. Like, where did that come from?
Speaker #1
And the answer is, well, I keep talking about my inner eight-year-old and my inner eight-year-old is positive. And so when I ask, where did that come from? The inner eight-year-old says, from me.
Speaker #0
I was wondering about little Julie, actually, when I was thinking about our conversation. Is there anything you've learned from your younger self? specifically in the past couple years that surprised you and that you've brought into your creative life?
Speaker #1
I think the poetry is a good example. I wrote 250 poems over a 10-year period. That's 25 poems a year. That's a sense of optimism. And I think that It surprises me. You know, like I said, I thought I had 20 poems. And here I had a prodigious number of poems. And I found myself feeling greatly encouraged and a little bit magical. You know, like I said, the poem about birds. When God got tired of using words, he expressed himself in birds. I love the whimsy of that. I found that the poems were full of whimsy. I'm going to put them in a book, and I'm going to make the print large so that people reading it... can also have a sense of whimsy instead of squinting at the page.
Speaker #0
That sounds great because I haven't been wearing my glasses very much, and I would like to be able to read it without my glasses.
Speaker #1
Well, that's what I'm designing.
Speaker #0
You know, that's something you talk about a lot, and I think something so important to remind people of is that a lot of times, like, we're not afraid to do the work, right? You say that you'll give people morning pages and they're like, great. I'll do the morning pages. Great. I'm happy to do anything that's like hard work effort that I have to get through. But when you tell them to go on an artist date, they're like, wait a second here. I don't know how to do that. Have fun. Have a fun festive moment. That sounds hard. Why is fun and play such a vital part of keeping your creativity alive?
Speaker #1
Well, I think it's essential. I think having a sense of play gives you a sense of wonder, and having a sense of wonder gives you a sense of possibility. And I think that we are trained to believe that creativity is hard. And so morning pages are hard. And we... intuitively think, oh, they will probably work. But if I say play, they say, what does play have to do with creativity? I don't get it. And I will say, well, we have an expression, the play of ideas, but we don't realize that it's a prescription. play, and you will have ideas.
Speaker #0
It's so true, too, because if we look back at our early creativity, it all happened in play. make-believe. We were coloring with our friends or our siblings. You know, all these things happened in a state of play and imagination. And then we get older and we think we can work our way into being creative or into our art. And yeah, sometimes you can, but if you don't have that layer of play, you're leaving a lot of magic on the table.
Speaker #1
Yes. That's a great way to put it, Leaving magic on the table.
Speaker #0
Yeah. You know. In the book and in your work, you talk so much about creative recovery, which I really relate to. I talk a lot and think a lot about like creative wounds and like how we ended up getting shut down in the first place and how we can remember and unleash in our current moment. But why do you use that phrase recovery? Why is that something important to state when somebody is going through this artist's way process or unleashing their inner creative process?
Speaker #1
Well, I think... Recovery is a literal term. We're out to re-cover the distance that we have traveled away from our creativity. So I like the word recovery rather than the word discovery, although they're closely related.
Speaker #0
That really touches my heart. I've never ever, I don't think I've ever heard you say that, but it's so true because I always say. Creativity isn't something we have to conjure up. It's just something we have to remember. But that image of walking back to the place where the wound happened and then just bringing that part of yourself into the present moment is so visceral and beautiful.
Speaker #1
I hope so.
Speaker #0
It is. It is. Your hope is fulfilled. I'm wondering in the book, there's so many amazing meditations. Do you have a favorite one?
Speaker #1
There's a passage in the book where it talks about inspiration. And it says, inspiration is not something sudden and powerful. It's something subtle and nuanced. And so when you're looking for inspiration, look to your senses and let your senses guide you. And I think the idea that there's a still small voice within us which whispers a sense of possibility and I'm going to keep you to your word about this book of yours. And I have an exercise that you might want to try.
Speaker #0
Okay.
Speaker #1
So the reason I can't write a book is... and the number from 1 to 10, and take a look at what your fears are. I'll write a book, and it won't be any good. I'll write a book, and nobody will want to publish it. I'll write a book, and nobody will want to read it. And you put your fears down, and you see that they're all grounded in the negative. It's very possible that you'll write a book and everybody will want to read it. And you'll write a book and everybody will fight to publish it. So you take your negative thought and you turn it into a positive affirmation. And then you have 10 reasons why you can write a book. I instead of 10 reasons why you can't.
Speaker #0
Wow. I definitely need to do that because you named some of my fears for sure. Do you have any because you are such a prolific author? Do you have any advice for me or anyone out there who is interested in writing a book on? Yeah. Like what what comes to mind? Like when you talk to young authors or. young writers who are interested or any age writers who are interested in doing this for the first time, what is your advice to them?
Speaker #1
I would tell them to write morning pages that will open the door. And then I will tell them to begin and to begin with where they are. And so you might find yourselves saying. I'm sitting in my studio. It's a room I designed myself with the help of my inner eight-year-old. I call it my cloud room. And so I find it's a wonderful place. for me to begin saying, what are my cloud thoughts? And my cloud thoughts are positive. And so I'm going to say, I'm going to write a positive sentence about a book. And that is, here I am, at last, beginning.
Speaker #0
My book just got started with Julia Cameron. I mean, come on. What could be better than that? Oh, man, that makes me so excited. You know, Julia, I think one of the things you hit on when you were saying potential fears around writing the book is something that I do struggle with. I am a very creative person, but I'm also a very driven person. And today it's interesting. You've uplifted me so much. I'm feeling so positive talking with you. But I was feeling really down on myself and a little disappointed earlier. Like I haven't done enough. I should be doing more in my creative career. I'm feeling disappointed like it hasn't taken off the way I thought it should. And I'm putting that in quotes. When you feel that way, or if you ever feel that way, what is your first line of defense? Like, how do you talk yourself off the ledge?
Speaker #1
I write a silly poem. This little poem goes out to me. I find I need it to feel free. I'm writing a poem at my best. I'm writing a poem at the behest of my inner poet who knows the best. So you just write a ditty like that. And I think that what we don't realize is the place that humor plays in creativity. And I think humor is something which opens a doorway for us. So when I'm feeling discouraged, I write something humorous. And I will tell you the story of how this began. I wrote a crime novel called The Dark Room, and it got 19 good reviews. And then the 20th review came in, and unfortunately, it was in the New York Times. And it was negative. The writer was outraged that my... detective hero was a Jungian. He evidently was a Freudian. So he didn't believe in serendipity. He didn't believe in the luck that the detective was having chasing down clues. And he published a very negative review. that was all about how much he hated Carl Jung and how foolish he thought Jungians were. And so I read the review, and I was heart sick. I thought, oh, my God, I've been shamed in the New York Times. The 19 good reviews went down the drain, and the negative reviews. stood on its own. Then I remembered humor. This little poem goes out to Bill Kent, who must feel awful the way that he spent his time critiquing Carl Jung instead of on the work I'd done. And immediately, I felt better. I felt like... I've taken my power back. I'm not letting this man have his way. And I thought from then on out, whatever I'm criticized unfairly, this little poem goes out to me. I find myself needing to be free. I have been told. I am the worst, and that makes me feel I'm cursed. But the little poems are very helpful.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
They give you a sense of levity, and they give you, most of all, a sense of power. Another example of something you can do about your book is you can write a negative poem. This little poem is about my book. I find I haven't dared to look at all the good that could be done if only I had a sense of fun.
Speaker #0
Are you freestyling these? They're so good.
Speaker #1
I'm freestyling them.
Speaker #0
Julia Cameron, the freestyle poet. Okay, put that in the New York Times. I'm ready to see it there. That is great advice. And it is important to have a sense of humor because a lot of times, something I do sometimes is if I'm like having a mental breakdown, I literally audio record it and then listen back to myself. Because usually the things that I'm thinking and saying are absolutely ridiculous. And like, way beyond the situation and what it calls for. So I find having that reflection is helpful. But the poem is such a fun, festive way to do that. And that's creative, too. Rather than like crying into my phone, I could cry and write my poem.
Speaker #1
And there is a rhyme there.
Speaker #0
Yes. See, you're rubbing off on me. This is good. I'm getting the Julia energy. You know, There's something I wanted to ask you about just because I'm super curious about it. And it's something that is on everyone's mind right now. And I've not heard you talk about it. What are your thoughts on AI for creatives? Like, what are your thoughts on it in general? And then as it pertains to creatives?
Speaker #1
Well, I think we need to stop thinking of it as a threat and start thinking of AI as a support. And. learn the type of question that it responds to gladly. And I think it can be a wonderful, useful thing if we just stop thinking, oh, it's stealing my thunder. If we start thinking of it as, oh, it's a support. It's a help. People worry about... AI taking over the world and that there's no place for creativity. And my experience with it is that it actually can help, but you need to ask it to help.
Speaker #0
Do you utilize it at all? And if so, what have you found it to be most effective for?
Speaker #1
The boyfriend that I mentioned prior has written a wonderful book, and it's with an editor right now, and she just mailed him back. I loved it.
Speaker #0
Yay.
Speaker #1
And he double-checked his work against AI. He would say, is there anything that can be done to make this chapter? stronger. And by casting it in a positive light, he found he got positive feedback. Yes, you can make it stronger if you include more details of her appearance. People are wondering what she looks like. And I think that the process of using AI, which at first I was threatened. He told me he was using AI to double-check things, and I thought, what's wrong with the human brain? What's wrong with using an editor? And he persisted, and he found himself. feeling reinforced. I found myself thinking, he's on to something here. And he was so open-minded about AI. He was very willing to be led. And he said sometimes he would get advice that didn't seem good to him. And so he wouldn't use it. And I think that that's... where discernment comes in, in dealing with AI, what seems sensible and reasonable and exciting, and what just seems ill-footed. So I think we have to remember that we don't need to hang our brains at the door.
Speaker #0
That's a great quote. I mean, I think the only problem comes when, like you said, people are outsourcing their own intuition and creativity to it completely. They're not doing any of that question of, hmm, does that actually make sense? Is that good advice? Is it even true? They're just taking it as gospel because it's not. It's, you know, it's got a lot of great information, but it isn't a source of absolute truth. So if you're using it as a idea generator or a creative partner, it can be great as long as you're not outsourcing your own intuition and creativity to it completely.
Speaker #1
I agree.
Speaker #0
I love getting your take on that. So you have no fear that AI is going to replace human creativity in any way?
Speaker #1
No, I don't think so.
Speaker #0
Good. I'm glad to hear it. I trust you. I don't think so either. I mean, that was part of why I started the podcast, because. AI can replicate human creativity, but it can't be creative. I wanted to go into another little piece of advice I'm curious to get from you. So, Julia, I have some big news. I know you're a mother, and I actually just found out I'm pregnant.
Speaker #1
Aha.
Speaker #0
Yeah. As we're recording. What did you say?
Speaker #1
I said, no wonder you're glowing.
Speaker #0
Oh, thank you. Yeah, I'm really excited. I got married over the summer and then, you know, I'm now nine weeks pregnant. So it's really exciting. The baby's due in August. And I know you have an amazing daughter. And so I'm curious from your perspective, how did becoming a mother change or enhance your creativity? And any advice you might have for me as an expecting mother?
Speaker #1
To be excited. to allow yourself to be thrilled, to allow yourself to think, there are so many things that I can teach this child. And I put a Rolling Stones album on and watched her light up. And I thought, we don't need to be pious. We don't need... to abandon our previous loves, we can share them with this child. And so my daughter grew up loving rock and roll.
Speaker #0
And how did it, if anything, like, how did it change you as a writer, having a daughter? Like, how did motherhood change or enhance your writing, if at all?
Speaker #1
Well, I think you're asking a book. question again. Like, will I be struck mute by motherhood? And the answer is no, you won't be. You'll be able to write. You'll be able to write fondly. And I think that when you say to yourself, I am... scared of motherhood, what you're doing is you're negating all of the prime mothers who have come before you and who have proved for themselves that creativity and motherhood can go hand in glove. So I would look around and be careful of who you talk to because you People will tell you that motherhood and creativity don't mix. And my experience is just the opposite. Motherhood and creativity go very well together.
Speaker #0
I really do trust that. I mean, I do have some fears just because there's so much unknown. But every single woman I've had on my podcast has had their greatest creative success after having. a child or children. So I feel like obviously I'm not doing a scientific study, but the numbers don't lie. You know, that's a lot of proof. So I really appreciate your advice. And that's good advice to stay with people who are positive about it and see how fruitful it is in every way. And I've been thinking, too, about, you know, you're such an amazing teacher and this prolific artist. You have so much writing under your belt that you've shared with the world. Does your creativity shift at all when you're going between being a writer? or then like into a teacher? Is it the same source? How does the creativity shift between the different things you do?
Speaker #1
I don't think of it as shifting. I think of it as listening for the impulse. And it's when I sit down to write, I'm listening for the impulse to write. When I'm standing up teaching, I'm listening for the impulse of what to say. And so I don't think of it as, let me say, I was afraid when I first started teaching that it would take away my creativity. And what I found was that as I told people how to stay creative themselves, I heard the message. And that actually... more creativity poured forth for me. And I think that I was being led, you know, I think I had a limited God concept. And I think I was believing in a punitive God. a God who would take away a good thing and punish me. And I started praying to a line from Dylan Thomas, The forest that's a green fuse drives the flower. And I found myself thinking, God is expansive. God is creative. God is festive. We don't have one pink flower, we have hundreds. And snowflakes are the ultimate exercise in creative glee. And I found myself thinking that it was going to be all right, that my creativity was a gift. using my creativity was something I was intended to do, not something I would be punished for.
Speaker #0
And I have to highly recommend the book you wrote about guidance, especially if somebody had grew up with a God that was the way Julia was explaining God before, like more of a punitive God versus an all loving, fun, expansive God, it helps you really create your own spiritual practice. And I just think it's so important for creatives. And I've known people along the years who haven't been able to find some sort of spiritual practice because they grew up with that idea. And it's really, I think, a great invitation to find your own form of spirituality.
Speaker #1
Yes, the book was called Living the Artist's Way.
Speaker #0
Living the Artist's Way. It's a great one. That's one of my favorites of yours.
Speaker #1
The subtitle is An Intuitive Path to Greater Creativity.
Speaker #0
Yeah. I mean, actually, I would like to ask a question because I'm thinking of one friend that I have right now who is a staunch atheist and is also, though, very curious about spirituality, but hasn't found what her thing is yet. If you could talk, because I know your boyfriend also was or maybe is still an atheist, but has found great wonder in doing the morning pages. So if you could talk to somebody who is maybe in that situation right now about how to begin to develop their own version of spirituality, what would you say to them?
Speaker #1
I would say it's none of my business. I have an atheist boyfriend. And I talk to him sometimes and say, you mean you really believe? there's nothing? And he will say, yes, I really believe there's nothing. And I have believed it since I was a teenager. And I will say, well, I believe there's something. I'm a believer. I believe that there is an expanded. divine force working through all things, and that it made animals, and it made trees in their infinite variety. And I don't convince him to not be an atheist. I don't say to him, well, Here's how you can start to believe. But I will say to him, can you say an atheist prayer for me? And I believe the higher power is listening. And he will say, God help your servant, Julia. And I believe God listens.
Speaker #0
I love that. An atheist prayer. Yeah. And I was more wondering, like, I'm not saying to convince somebody to believe in God. I don't believe in pushing my beliefs on anyone. It's more for people who don't currently have a spiritual practice, but long for that and are looking for one. That was more of my question. How can they start to form a spiritual practice?
Speaker #1
And that brings me back to my usual response. Try Morning Pages. And what you will find is a sense of optimism and connection. I think of the Morning Pages as sort of a greased path to spirituality. Although I tend to talk about them as secular.
Speaker #0
Yeah. I want to ask you about that because I think as you've gone along the years, you've gotten more and more open with your own spirituality, which I love reading because I relate to it. But that's something I've noticed when I'm talking about creativity. A lot of times I'm talking about God, but I'm just not saying the word God. But not saying it makes me feel like I'm withholding something. And I wonder how you think about it when you're maybe feeling similarly, where you're talking about something in a secular way, but to you it's quite spiritual.
Speaker #1
Well, I'm not sure what your question is.
Speaker #0
I mean, like, I feel like I'm withholding very necessary words sometimes when I'm talking about creativity and because I'm not saying the word God, but like it's so about God to me. But I don't want to alienate anyone because I think people who don't believe could. experience it just as well, but I feel discomfort not saying what I'm feeling, I guess. And I'm wondering if you ever experienced that when talking about something in a secular way that you feel is actually spiritual.
Speaker #1
Well, I found myself hesitating to write the guidance book, which is very spiritual. And I'm not surprised. It's a favorite of yours. But what I was afraid of was that people would think I was too woo-woo. And I had a horror of being thought woo-woo. And then I talked to a girlfriend of mine, a Jungian analyst, and she said, Julia, woo-woo is where it's at. And I found myself emboldened by her response. And I started to say, I'm a believer. And I found relief in that. And I recently wrote a list of what I believed. And it went, I believe, in an expansive divine force. I believe that there is a universal force. I believe that its eye is on the sparrow and it takes a kindly view of everyone. And I kept on writing, I believe. And I filled a half a page of notebook with what I believed. And then I shared it with my atheist boyfriend. And sort of felt like I was out of the closet.
Speaker #0
I love that. I might write a belief page after this. You've given me so much material. You know, something we talk about a lot on the podcast is fear. And I used to feel like I needed to eliminate fear. Now I don't feel like that at all. I feel like fear can be our friend. Fear is something to understand. You just don't want it making decisions for you. I wonder for you, what is your relationship with fear like now? And how has it changed over time?
Speaker #1
Well, now I tend to think of fear as being silly, where before I thought of it as the voice of doom. And I find that what has happened to me is that my negative inner critic has become miniaturized. through using warning pages. And what started out as a damning voice that condemned me has come to seem like a wee, peeping, negative voice, like a cartoon character, like a negative relative that always wrecks family picnics. the Now, when I hear from Nigel, as I call him, and it helps to name your critic. And I picked Nigel because it was such a persnickety name. Nigel. And when you hear the peeping voice of your critic, you learn to say, thank you for sharing. And so you're acknowledging the critics negativity, but you're also poking fun at it.
Speaker #0
Yeah. Humor, again, it might be the best tool that we have. You know, I'm wondering what is something in your creative career that you're really proud of yourself for? Is there anything that. comes to mind for you?
Speaker #1
Well, the first thing that came to mind was Writing the Artist's Way. That was my first book. And I feel like in many ways, it's still my best book. And I find myself saying, oh, you couldn't do anything better than that. And the answer is, no, probably not. And I'm proud of having written that book. And I find myself using a book called The Morning Pages Journal, which is filled with quotations from the artist's way. And I read these one-line quotations. And I think, oh, I really believe that.
Speaker #0
Is there ever a time when you read something that you've written or hear a quote read back to you that you've read or said and say, I said that? Do you ever feel surprised by your own work in a good way?
Speaker #1
Yes, I have a book which. It's called Some People Say God Is No Laughing Matter. And it's got a very snippy tone. And it's full of hilarious descriptions of what I call people who are spiritually correct. And I poke fun at them. I feel like when I read the book, I think... Oh, it's too snippy. But this afternoon I was here and I was walking on the treadmill and a girlfriend of mine was sitting on the couch and she picked up the book, the dread book, and opened it up and started laughing out loud. And she said, This is so funny. This is such a good thing that you did this. You were so wise to poke fun. And so I find myself standing corrected.
Speaker #0
I'm happy you were. I want to check that one out. I haven't read it yet. Julia, you have helped millions and millions of people. reconnect with their creativity. When you reflect on your life and work so far, what do you hope your legacy will be?
Speaker #1
That I helped light a lot of lamps, that we had this conversation and then you went off and wrote your book. And that people reading my work were inspired to do their own work. And I sometimes feel like I wish I were better known as an artist and that instead I'm famous as a teacher. And then I say, what better thing to be famous for?
Speaker #0
Yeah. And there's a lot of art in teaching. And also this poetry book, Julia. I feel big things for it. I really do. The poetry has flowed through every single book you've written to the point where I actually thought you'd already written a poetry book. So this feels like a great moment of stepping out and claiming your artistry once again.
Speaker #1
Yes, I hope so. I hope people will go to my website, juliacameronlive.com. It has a great deal of art in it. his plays, it has movies, it has poems, it has songs. And I hope people will spend some time getting to know that.
Speaker #0
Well, we'll make sure that all of our creative cuties do. We're going to put that link in the show notes and we'll be looking out for the poetry book, Cannot Wait. Is there any final word you'd like to leave with the listener?
Speaker #1
I want you to try morning pages. That's my final word. That is my most productive thought. And I feel like if you try them, you will be led forward. And being led forward, you will find yourself discovering probes of creativity within yourself.
Speaker #0
Well, you heard it from the queen herself. Go try those morning pages. Find your troves of creativity. Check out Julia Cameron live.com. Get her new book, the daily artist's way. It's excellent. And Julia, thank you for being a beacon for all of us. And for you inspired me, as you know, this podcast would not exist without your work. I adore you. You are a mentor to me. And I'm just so grateful. that I get to exist in the same timeline as you. Thank you for being here.
Speaker #1
You're very welcome. It was a pleasure to talk to you.
Speaker #0
There you have it, our sixth episode with the queen, the great Julia Cameron. One of the things that I love the most about talking with Julia is that she reminds us that creativity isn't something we have to chase or force. It's something we return to again. and again, and again. So maybe today that looks like writing a few morning pages. Maybe it looks like doing something playful that you love to do as a kid. Maybe it looks like letting yourself want the thing you've been quietly wanting, but afraid to say out loud. Whatever it is, let this be your invitation to begin. You can find Julia, her work, and her incredible books, including The Daily Artist's Way at juliacameronlive.com and follow her on Instagram. at Julia Cameron Live. Be sure to check out her poetry and get excited for that book that's coming out. I love, love her poems. As always, if this episode resonated with you, I'd love for you to share it with a friend or a family member who could use a little bit more creativity and healing in their life. And follow us on socials at Unleash Your Inner Creative and at Lauren LaGrasso. Unleash is executive produced by me, Lauren LaGrasso, and also hosted, and it is edited by Blondel Garcon. I love you and I believe in you. Talk with you next week.

About Unleash Your Inner Creative with Lauren LoGrasso (A Creativity Podcast)

New episodes are out every Wednesday - follow, rate and review wherever you get your podcasts :)

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About Unleash Your Inner Creative with Lauren LoGrasso (A Creativity Podcast)

New episodes are out every Wednesday - follow, rate and review wherever you get your podcasts :)

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Description

If you’ve ever struggled with creative blocks or wondered how to stay creative through ALL of life, you’ll find Julia’s perspective is both grounding and inspiring.

In this episode we discuss:

Check out ALL of Julia’s art and writing: https://juliacameronlive.com/

Follow the show: @unleashyourinnercreative

Follow me: @LaurenLoGrasso

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Transcription

Speaker #0
What if creative bravery isn't always loud and fast? What if sometimes it looks like quietly writing poems for 10 years, never intending to publish them, and then one day deciding, maybe I'm allowed to share this? Today, I'm back with Julia Cameron, author of The Artist's Way and the queen of creativity ourself, for our sixth conversation together on Unleash Your Inner Creative. And somehow, Julia continues to surprise me. In this episode, Julia shares one of her boldest plans yet, her journey to publish her very first book of poetry. We talk about quieting the inner critic and why play, humor, and wonder are not indulgences, but necessities for a creative life. We also dive into her new book, The Daily Artist's Way, 366 Meditations for Creative Living, which is out now. In addition to that, we talk about her current relationship with fear. Her thoughts on AI, which are really interesting and might surprise you. Spirituality, motherhood, discipline, how to find powerful creative collaborators, and why creativity is something we recover, not something we ever have to invent from scratch. We also discuss what she hopes her creative legacy will be and how she views herself as an artist. This conversation feels like an invitation to be playful, to be brave, and to believe deeply in your birthright to creativity. and reinvention. So let's get into it. Here she is, the incredible Julia Cameron. Well, I'm so, so thrilled and honored to be back with you again this year. This is, I think, six years in a row I've had the privilege of talking with you. And so thank you for coming on once again to Unleash Your Inner Creative.
Speaker #1
Well, you're very welcome. We'll try and unleash our inner creative for an hour.
Speaker #0
I know we will. I know we will. And so because I haven't talked to you in a year, I'm wondering what for you in the past year has been a creative highlight?
Speaker #1
Aha. I'm doing something very risky. I'm publishing a book of poetry. And I found myself saying, I know I've written poems in my morning pages journals. And I probably have about 20. And then I had my friend Emma Lively, my colleague, goes through the journals looking for poems. And she found 250. And so she's coming out in a week. And we're going through all 250 poems, deciding which ones are book-worthy. And the idea for writing a book of poetry came to me because, you know, singer Judy Collins?
Speaker #0
Oh, yeah.
Speaker #1
She just published a book of poetry. And I thought if Judy is brave enough, maybe I should be brave enough. And I found that my inner perfectionist. was alive and well when it came to dealing with poems.
Speaker #0
Wow.
Speaker #1
So I'm hoping to be able to resign my perfectionist and feel a sense of wonder at the wit of the poems.
Speaker #0
That is such amazing news. I guess I didn't really... Have you never published a book of poetry before?
Speaker #1
No, I never have. I've put poems... in my other books. And if you go on my website, we've got 50 poems, but I've never published a book of poetry. And I find myself feeling abashed.
Speaker #0
Wow. So I didn't realize that because I love your poems so much. And we've heard them on the podcast several times. And I think of them often, actually. So. I'm excited this is going to be in the world so we can all read what you've been up to for years on end, just writing in these amazing pages. But you're talking about the inner critic. How are you working through that as you go toward this and like remaining in excitement for this incredible new thing you're doing?
Speaker #1
Well, I'm saying to myself, Nigel, Nigel is my inner critic. Nigel, you're not invited to comment. And I found myself looking through an old book of mine called God is No Laughing Matter. I found a poem in the book that I forgot having written. And the first two lines of the poem are, when God tired of using words, he expressed himself in birds.
Speaker #0
I love that. Yeah, I can't wait. That's going to be a joy to read. So is that going to be your 2026 publication, you think, the poetry book?
Speaker #1
Maybe about a year.
Speaker #0
Okay.
Speaker #1
And I'm starting something called Cameron Press, which is where I'm going to self-publish a number of books. And I'm talking to my literary agent, Susan Rayhoffer, about whether or not I should self-publish the poetry book or whether she should take it out for sale. And. She successfully sold Judy's book. So I'm thinking that perhaps I should let it go the usual course and put it up for sale.
Speaker #0
It sounds like this past year has been such a fruitful year when it comes to starting new things.
Speaker #1
Well, I find myself feeling excited. feeling sort of prosperous and feeling like I can set an example by publishing poetry. People will not be expecting it. And maybe they will think, oh, she's brave and just a little bit foolish.
Speaker #0
Which we all could use to be. And it reminds me of this thing because obviously I read. the daily artist's way. I'm reading my way through it because it is a daily practice. But I love one of these affirmations you had in the beginning. My creativity is a healing source for me and for others. And then there was another one where you said something about my creativity basically inspires other people to be creative as well. And this seems like a great example of that.
Speaker #1
Yes. I said to Judy, you realize you've inspired me. And she said, I did? What a wonderful thing. She said, I love thinking that my poetry inspired your poetry and my book inspired your book.
Speaker #0
Because it always does, right? It has ripple effects and creativity begets creativity, not only in ourselves, but in others. The more that you put out there, the more likely it is for somebody to see it and say, well, maybe I could do that too.
Speaker #1
Yes. Maybe I could do that too is the perfect phrase.
Speaker #0
Yeah. I love that. And I think that the world needs so much more of that right now because I live in LA and it's an interesting time in Hollywood. I'm sure you've heard, but there's a lot of instability here right now because of the strikes. There's a lot of people I know who are packing up their bags and... deciding that they're going away from their creative career, going towards something more stable. And I'm wondering, for the people that are sticking around, but maybe in a hard time creatively, what advice would you have for them on how to move forward and maintain optimistic, even when there seems to be a lot of evidence around them that things aren't going well?
Speaker #1
Well, this is where I sound like a fanatic. where I get to say, well, what I think you need to do is write morning pages and telling them to get up in the morning, put their pen to paper, and write out their thoughts. And I think that if they do a practice of morning pages, they will retain optimism. And I think that Morning Pages... are sort of witness to our lives. And I can see you nodding.
Speaker #0
I've been doing them, Julia. I've been doing them. I've been good.
Speaker #1
And I've been getting good reports from this Daily Artist Way book.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
But people are finding it is an easy goad to writing. And I had somebody come over this afternoon. And she said, I couldn't write, and now I'm writing two pages a day.
Speaker #0
Wow. Yeah, I always marvel at your consistency. And you do, you really are a disciplined person, I think, because I know how loyal you've been to your artists, to your morning pages, and to your daily writing. How do you find the beauty and the holiness in discipline? Because sometimes I'm a little rebel and I can feel myself being like, well, I don't want to do it today. And I don't think I should have to do it today. So how do you find the beauty and the freedom in that kind of discipline?
Speaker #1
Well, I had a review recently that said Julia's tools are simple and repetitive. And I think it was intended as an insult. And I thought, no, it's a compliment. Tools should be simple and repetitive. and tools. should encourage us and they should give us hope. And how I find beauty is, as I said, I have written poems in my morning pages. And I have a boyfriend. I was 75 years old and I said, never have another lover. It's over. And so just enjoy being single. And I was sort of settling into being single when I met him. And his name is Brian Thomas. And I'm dedicating the poetry book to him. This book goes to Brian Thomas, who told me that my poems had promise. and I think it's important that we surround ourselves with positive people, and I think it's something that I call believing mirrors, and believing mirrors are people who reflect back to us our strength and our possibility. When you tell them you're going to publish a book of poetry, they say, wonderful. They don't say. Oh, dear. And so I think a believing mirror is somebody who gives you hope and expresses your own courage back to you.
Speaker #0
I actually I've started doing keynotes, Julia, and I quote you in them often. And I bring up the believing mirrors because I think it's one of the most powerful images for people because. It's really hard to pursue a creative path in complete isolation. And when you don't have anybody reflecting back to you, it can just feel like, is this even real? Like, I don't know. Like, it feels like, yeah, like you're making art in a cave, which can be fun for a while. But sometimes you want to make it in community.
Speaker #1
Yes, I think that's true. And I think... Morning pages are one source of witness, and they reflect back to you your dreams, your hopes, your desires. And then I think you need people who tell you that's not crazy. And a believing mirror is somebody who doesn't say you're crazy. It's somebody who says to you, you're probably right. Why don't you try it? And that expression, why don't you try it, is very powerful. And that's something that believing mirrors say to you all the time. Why don't you try it, Lauren?
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
So have you got something that you're cooking up that you're feeling shy about?
Speaker #0
Well, since you asked, Julie, I actually really want to write a book. It makes me want to cry a little bit saying it out loud to you. But yeah, like that. It's a big dream of mine.
Speaker #1
And when you write in your morning pages, I want to write a book. What do your pages say?
Speaker #0
Yes.
Speaker #1
Yes, you can.
Speaker #0
Yeah. They encourage me. And guidance does, too. I did guidance right before I came on. That one has been the most astounding to me. Guidance.
Speaker #1
We should explain to people that guidance is asking the universe directly for something that is... positive. And you say, what about X? And you put down, what about a book? And guidance says, I'll bet you can do it. And guidance is always positive. It's always prompting you to move forward. It's always gentle. And sometimes people are afraid to ask the universe for advice. But my experience with it is that for 30 years now, I've asked the universe for advice and the universe has given me kindly advice.
Speaker #0
Always. It's kind and it's honest and loving and encouraging. And sometimes the things that your hand writes as you're asking the questions really shocks me. I'm like. Like, where did that come from?
Speaker #1
And the answer is, well, I keep talking about my inner eight-year-old and my inner eight-year-old is positive. And so when I ask, where did that come from? The inner eight-year-old says, from me.
Speaker #0
I was wondering about little Julie, actually, when I was thinking about our conversation. Is there anything you've learned from your younger self? specifically in the past couple years that surprised you and that you've brought into your creative life?
Speaker #1
I think the poetry is a good example. I wrote 250 poems over a 10-year period. That's 25 poems a year. That's a sense of optimism. And I think that It surprises me. You know, like I said, I thought I had 20 poems. And here I had a prodigious number of poems. And I found myself feeling greatly encouraged and a little bit magical. You know, like I said, the poem about birds. When God got tired of using words, he expressed himself in birds. I love the whimsy of that. I found that the poems were full of whimsy. I'm going to put them in a book, and I'm going to make the print large so that people reading it... can also have a sense of whimsy instead of squinting at the page.
Speaker #0
That sounds great because I haven't been wearing my glasses very much, and I would like to be able to read it without my glasses.
Speaker #1
Well, that's what I'm designing.
Speaker #0
You know, that's something you talk about a lot, and I think something so important to remind people of is that a lot of times, like, we're not afraid to do the work, right? You say that you'll give people morning pages and they're like, great. I'll do the morning pages. Great. I'm happy to do anything that's like hard work effort that I have to get through. But when you tell them to go on an artist date, they're like, wait a second here. I don't know how to do that. Have fun. Have a fun festive moment. That sounds hard. Why is fun and play such a vital part of keeping your creativity alive?
Speaker #1
Well, I think it's essential. I think having a sense of play gives you a sense of wonder, and having a sense of wonder gives you a sense of possibility. And I think that we are trained to believe that creativity is hard. And so morning pages are hard. And we... intuitively think, oh, they will probably work. But if I say play, they say, what does play have to do with creativity? I don't get it. And I will say, well, we have an expression, the play of ideas, but we don't realize that it's a prescription. play, and you will have ideas.
Speaker #0
It's so true, too, because if we look back at our early creativity, it all happened in play. make-believe. We were coloring with our friends or our siblings. You know, all these things happened in a state of play and imagination. And then we get older and we think we can work our way into being creative or into our art. And yeah, sometimes you can, but if you don't have that layer of play, you're leaving a lot of magic on the table.
Speaker #1
Yes. That's a great way to put it, Leaving magic on the table.
Speaker #0
Yeah. You know. In the book and in your work, you talk so much about creative recovery, which I really relate to. I talk a lot and think a lot about like creative wounds and like how we ended up getting shut down in the first place and how we can remember and unleash in our current moment. But why do you use that phrase recovery? Why is that something important to state when somebody is going through this artist's way process or unleashing their inner creative process?
Speaker #1
Well, I think... Recovery is a literal term. We're out to re-cover the distance that we have traveled away from our creativity. So I like the word recovery rather than the word discovery, although they're closely related.
Speaker #0
That really touches my heart. I've never ever, I don't think I've ever heard you say that, but it's so true because I always say. Creativity isn't something we have to conjure up. It's just something we have to remember. But that image of walking back to the place where the wound happened and then just bringing that part of yourself into the present moment is so visceral and beautiful.
Speaker #1
I hope so.
Speaker #0
It is. It is. Your hope is fulfilled. I'm wondering in the book, there's so many amazing meditations. Do you have a favorite one?
Speaker #1
There's a passage in the book where it talks about inspiration. And it says, inspiration is not something sudden and powerful. It's something subtle and nuanced. And so when you're looking for inspiration, look to your senses and let your senses guide you. And I think the idea that there's a still small voice within us which whispers a sense of possibility and I'm going to keep you to your word about this book of yours. And I have an exercise that you might want to try.
Speaker #0
Okay.
Speaker #1
So the reason I can't write a book is... and the number from 1 to 10, and take a look at what your fears are. I'll write a book, and it won't be any good. I'll write a book, and nobody will want to publish it. I'll write a book, and nobody will want to read it. And you put your fears down, and you see that they're all grounded in the negative. It's very possible that you'll write a book and everybody will want to read it. And you'll write a book and everybody will fight to publish it. So you take your negative thought and you turn it into a positive affirmation. And then you have 10 reasons why you can write a book. I instead of 10 reasons why you can't.
Speaker #0
Wow. I definitely need to do that because you named some of my fears for sure. Do you have any because you are such a prolific author? Do you have any advice for me or anyone out there who is interested in writing a book on? Yeah. Like what what comes to mind? Like when you talk to young authors or. young writers who are interested or any age writers who are interested in doing this for the first time, what is your advice to them?
Speaker #1
I would tell them to write morning pages that will open the door. And then I will tell them to begin and to begin with where they are. And so you might find yourselves saying. I'm sitting in my studio. It's a room I designed myself with the help of my inner eight-year-old. I call it my cloud room. And so I find it's a wonderful place. for me to begin saying, what are my cloud thoughts? And my cloud thoughts are positive. And so I'm going to say, I'm going to write a positive sentence about a book. And that is, here I am, at last, beginning.
Speaker #0
My book just got started with Julia Cameron. I mean, come on. What could be better than that? Oh, man, that makes me so excited. You know, Julia, I think one of the things you hit on when you were saying potential fears around writing the book is something that I do struggle with. I am a very creative person, but I'm also a very driven person. And today it's interesting. You've uplifted me so much. I'm feeling so positive talking with you. But I was feeling really down on myself and a little disappointed earlier. Like I haven't done enough. I should be doing more in my creative career. I'm feeling disappointed like it hasn't taken off the way I thought it should. And I'm putting that in quotes. When you feel that way, or if you ever feel that way, what is your first line of defense? Like, how do you talk yourself off the ledge?
Speaker #1
I write a silly poem. This little poem goes out to me. I find I need it to feel free. I'm writing a poem at my best. I'm writing a poem at the behest of my inner poet who knows the best. So you just write a ditty like that. And I think that what we don't realize is the place that humor plays in creativity. And I think humor is something which opens a doorway for us. So when I'm feeling discouraged, I write something humorous. And I will tell you the story of how this began. I wrote a crime novel called The Dark Room, and it got 19 good reviews. And then the 20th review came in, and unfortunately, it was in the New York Times. And it was negative. The writer was outraged that my... detective hero was a Jungian. He evidently was a Freudian. So he didn't believe in serendipity. He didn't believe in the luck that the detective was having chasing down clues. And he published a very negative review. that was all about how much he hated Carl Jung and how foolish he thought Jungians were. And so I read the review, and I was heart sick. I thought, oh, my God, I've been shamed in the New York Times. The 19 good reviews went down the drain, and the negative reviews. stood on its own. Then I remembered humor. This little poem goes out to Bill Kent, who must feel awful the way that he spent his time critiquing Carl Jung instead of on the work I'd done. And immediately, I felt better. I felt like... I've taken my power back. I'm not letting this man have his way. And I thought from then on out, whatever I'm criticized unfairly, this little poem goes out to me. I find myself needing to be free. I have been told. I am the worst, and that makes me feel I'm cursed. But the little poems are very helpful.
Speaker #0
Yeah.
Speaker #1
They give you a sense of levity, and they give you, most of all, a sense of power. Another example of something you can do about your book is you can write a negative poem. This little poem is about my book. I find I haven't dared to look at all the good that could be done if only I had a sense of fun.
Speaker #0
Are you freestyling these? They're so good.
Speaker #1
I'm freestyling them.
Speaker #0
Julia Cameron, the freestyle poet. Okay, put that in the New York Times. I'm ready to see it there. That is great advice. And it is important to have a sense of humor because a lot of times, something I do sometimes is if I'm like having a mental breakdown, I literally audio record it and then listen back to myself. Because usually the things that I'm thinking and saying are absolutely ridiculous. And like, way beyond the situation and what it calls for. So I find having that reflection is helpful. But the poem is such a fun, festive way to do that. And that's creative, too. Rather than like crying into my phone, I could cry and write my poem.
Speaker #1
And there is a rhyme there.
Speaker #0
Yes. See, you're rubbing off on me. This is good. I'm getting the Julia energy. You know, There's something I wanted to ask you about just because I'm super curious about it. And it's something that is on everyone's mind right now. And I've not heard you talk about it. What are your thoughts on AI for creatives? Like, what are your thoughts on it in general? And then as it pertains to creatives?
Speaker #1
Well, I think we need to stop thinking of it as a threat and start thinking of AI as a support. And. learn the type of question that it responds to gladly. And I think it can be a wonderful, useful thing if we just stop thinking, oh, it's stealing my thunder. If we start thinking of it as, oh, it's a support. It's a help. People worry about... AI taking over the world and that there's no place for creativity. And my experience with it is that it actually can help, but you need to ask it to help.
Speaker #0
Do you utilize it at all? And if so, what have you found it to be most effective for?
Speaker #1
The boyfriend that I mentioned prior has written a wonderful book, and it's with an editor right now, and she just mailed him back. I loved it.
Speaker #0
Yay.
Speaker #1
And he double-checked his work against AI. He would say, is there anything that can be done to make this chapter? stronger. And by casting it in a positive light, he found he got positive feedback. Yes, you can make it stronger if you include more details of her appearance. People are wondering what she looks like. And I think that the process of using AI, which at first I was threatened. He told me he was using AI to double-check things, and I thought, what's wrong with the human brain? What's wrong with using an editor? And he persisted, and he found himself. feeling reinforced. I found myself thinking, he's on to something here. And he was so open-minded about AI. He was very willing to be led. And he said sometimes he would get advice that didn't seem good to him. And so he wouldn't use it. And I think that that's... where discernment comes in, in dealing with AI, what seems sensible and reasonable and exciting, and what just seems ill-footed. So I think we have to remember that we don't need to hang our brains at the door.
Speaker #0
That's a great quote. I mean, I think the only problem comes when, like you said, people are outsourcing their own intuition and creativity to it completely. They're not doing any of that question of, hmm, does that actually make sense? Is that good advice? Is it even true? They're just taking it as gospel because it's not. It's, you know, it's got a lot of great information, but it isn't a source of absolute truth. So if you're using it as a idea generator or a creative partner, it can be great as long as you're not outsourcing your own intuition and creativity to it completely.
Speaker #1
I agree.
Speaker #0
I love getting your take on that. So you have no fear that AI is going to replace human creativity in any way?
Speaker #1
No, I don't think so.
Speaker #0
Good. I'm glad to hear it. I trust you. I don't think so either. I mean, that was part of why I started the podcast, because. AI can replicate human creativity, but it can't be creative. I wanted to go into another little piece of advice I'm curious to get from you. So, Julia, I have some big news. I know you're a mother, and I actually just found out I'm pregnant.
Speaker #1
Aha.
Speaker #0
Yeah. As we're recording. What did you say?
Speaker #1
I said, no wonder you're glowing.
Speaker #0
Oh, thank you. Yeah, I'm really excited. I got married over the summer and then, you know, I'm now nine weeks pregnant. So it's really exciting. The baby's due in August. And I know you have an amazing daughter. And so I'm curious from your perspective, how did becoming a mother change or enhance your creativity? And any advice you might have for me as an expecting mother?
Speaker #1
To be excited. to allow yourself to be thrilled, to allow yourself to think, there are so many things that I can teach this child. And I put a Rolling Stones album on and watched her light up. And I thought, we don't need to be pious. We don't need... to abandon our previous loves, we can share them with this child. And so my daughter grew up loving rock and roll.
Speaker #0
And how did it, if anything, like, how did it change you as a writer, having a daughter? Like, how did motherhood change or enhance your writing, if at all?
Speaker #1
Well, I think you're asking a book. question again. Like, will I be struck mute by motherhood? And the answer is no, you won't be. You'll be able to write. You'll be able to write fondly. And I think that when you say to yourself, I am... scared of motherhood, what you're doing is you're negating all of the prime mothers who have come before you and who have proved for themselves that creativity and motherhood can go hand in glove. So I would look around and be careful of who you talk to because you People will tell you that motherhood and creativity don't mix. And my experience is just the opposite. Motherhood and creativity go very well together.
Speaker #0
I really do trust that. I mean, I do have some fears just because there's so much unknown. But every single woman I've had on my podcast has had their greatest creative success after having. a child or children. So I feel like obviously I'm not doing a scientific study, but the numbers don't lie. You know, that's a lot of proof. So I really appreciate your advice. And that's good advice to stay with people who are positive about it and see how fruitful it is in every way. And I've been thinking, too, about, you know, you're such an amazing teacher and this prolific artist. You have so much writing under your belt that you've shared with the world. Does your creativity shift at all when you're going between being a writer? or then like into a teacher? Is it the same source? How does the creativity shift between the different things you do?
Speaker #1
I don't think of it as shifting. I think of it as listening for the impulse. And it's when I sit down to write, I'm listening for the impulse to write. When I'm standing up teaching, I'm listening for the impulse of what to say. And so I don't think of it as, let me say, I was afraid when I first started teaching that it would take away my creativity. And what I found was that as I told people how to stay creative themselves, I heard the message. And that actually... more creativity poured forth for me. And I think that I was being led, you know, I think I had a limited God concept. And I think I was believing in a punitive God. a God who would take away a good thing and punish me. And I started praying to a line from Dylan Thomas, The forest that's a green fuse drives the flower. And I found myself thinking, God is expansive. God is creative. God is festive. We don't have one pink flower, we have hundreds. And snowflakes are the ultimate exercise in creative glee. And I found myself thinking that it was going to be all right, that my creativity was a gift. using my creativity was something I was intended to do, not something I would be punished for.
Speaker #0
And I have to highly recommend the book you wrote about guidance, especially if somebody had grew up with a God that was the way Julia was explaining God before, like more of a punitive God versus an all loving, fun, expansive God, it helps you really create your own spiritual practice. And I just think it's so important for creatives. And I've known people along the years who haven't been able to find some sort of spiritual practice because they grew up with that idea. And it's really, I think, a great invitation to find your own form of spirituality.
Speaker #1
Yes, the book was called Living the Artist's Way.
Speaker #0
Living the Artist's Way. It's a great one. That's one of my favorites of yours.
Speaker #1
The subtitle is An Intuitive Path to Greater Creativity.
Speaker #0
Yeah. I mean, actually, I would like to ask a question because I'm thinking of one friend that I have right now who is a staunch atheist and is also, though, very curious about spirituality, but hasn't found what her thing is yet. If you could talk, because I know your boyfriend also was or maybe is still an atheist, but has found great wonder in doing the morning pages. So if you could talk to somebody who is maybe in that situation right now about how to begin to develop their own version of spirituality, what would you say to them?
Speaker #1
I would say it's none of my business. I have an atheist boyfriend. And I talk to him sometimes and say, you mean you really believe? there's nothing? And he will say, yes, I really believe there's nothing. And I have believed it since I was a teenager. And I will say, well, I believe there's something. I'm a believer. I believe that there is an expanded. divine force working through all things, and that it made animals, and it made trees in their infinite variety. And I don't convince him to not be an atheist. I don't say to him, well, Here's how you can start to believe. But I will say to him, can you say an atheist prayer for me? And I believe the higher power is listening. And he will say, God help your servant, Julia. And I believe God listens.
Speaker #0
I love that. An atheist prayer. Yeah. And I was more wondering, like, I'm not saying to convince somebody to believe in God. I don't believe in pushing my beliefs on anyone. It's more for people who don't currently have a spiritual practice, but long for that and are looking for one. That was more of my question. How can they start to form a spiritual practice?
Speaker #1
And that brings me back to my usual response. Try Morning Pages. And what you will find is a sense of optimism and connection. I think of the Morning Pages as sort of a greased path to spirituality. Although I tend to talk about them as secular.
Speaker #0
Yeah. I want to ask you about that because I think as you've gone along the years, you've gotten more and more open with your own spirituality, which I love reading because I relate to it. But that's something I've noticed when I'm talking about creativity. A lot of times I'm talking about God, but I'm just not saying the word God. But not saying it makes me feel like I'm withholding something. And I wonder how you think about it when you're maybe feeling similarly, where you're talking about something in a secular way, but to you it's quite spiritual.
Speaker #1
Well, I'm not sure what your question is.
Speaker #0
I mean, like, I feel like I'm withholding very necessary words sometimes when I'm talking about creativity and because I'm not saying the word God, but like it's so about God to me. But I don't want to alienate anyone because I think people who don't believe could. experience it just as well, but I feel discomfort not saying what I'm feeling, I guess. And I'm wondering if you ever experienced that when talking about something in a secular way that you feel is actually spiritual.
Speaker #1
Well, I found myself hesitating to write the guidance book, which is very spiritual. And I'm not surprised. It's a favorite of yours. But what I was afraid of was that people would think I was too woo-woo. And I had a horror of being thought woo-woo. And then I talked to a girlfriend of mine, a Jungian analyst, and she said, Julia, woo-woo is where it's at. And I found myself emboldened by her response. And I started to say, I'm a believer. And I found relief in that. And I recently wrote a list of what I believed. And it went, I believe, in an expansive divine force. I believe that there is a universal force. I believe that its eye is on the sparrow and it takes a kindly view of everyone. And I kept on writing, I believe. And I filled a half a page of notebook with what I believed. And then I shared it with my atheist boyfriend. And sort of felt like I was out of the closet.
Speaker #0
I love that. I might write a belief page after this. You've given me so much material. You know, something we talk about a lot on the podcast is fear. And I used to feel like I needed to eliminate fear. Now I don't feel like that at all. I feel like fear can be our friend. Fear is something to understand. You just don't want it making decisions for you. I wonder for you, what is your relationship with fear like now? And how has it changed over time?
Speaker #1
Well, now I tend to think of fear as being silly, where before I thought of it as the voice of doom. And I find that what has happened to me is that my negative inner critic has become miniaturized. through using warning pages. And what started out as a damning voice that condemned me has come to seem like a wee, peeping, negative voice, like a cartoon character, like a negative relative that always wrecks family picnics. the Now, when I hear from Nigel, as I call him, and it helps to name your critic. And I picked Nigel because it was such a persnickety name. Nigel. And when you hear the peeping voice of your critic, you learn to say, thank you for sharing. And so you're acknowledging the critics negativity, but you're also poking fun at it.
Speaker #0
Yeah. Humor, again, it might be the best tool that we have. You know, I'm wondering what is something in your creative career that you're really proud of yourself for? Is there anything that. comes to mind for you?
Speaker #1
Well, the first thing that came to mind was Writing the Artist's Way. That was my first book. And I feel like in many ways, it's still my best book. And I find myself saying, oh, you couldn't do anything better than that. And the answer is, no, probably not. And I'm proud of having written that book. And I find myself using a book called The Morning Pages Journal, which is filled with quotations from the artist's way. And I read these one-line quotations. And I think, oh, I really believe that.
Speaker #0
Is there ever a time when you read something that you've written or hear a quote read back to you that you've read or said and say, I said that? Do you ever feel surprised by your own work in a good way?
Speaker #1
Yes, I have a book which. It's called Some People Say God Is No Laughing Matter. And it's got a very snippy tone. And it's full of hilarious descriptions of what I call people who are spiritually correct. And I poke fun at them. I feel like when I read the book, I think... Oh, it's too snippy. But this afternoon I was here and I was walking on the treadmill and a girlfriend of mine was sitting on the couch and she picked up the book, the dread book, and opened it up and started laughing out loud. And she said, This is so funny. This is such a good thing that you did this. You were so wise to poke fun. And so I find myself standing corrected.
Speaker #0
I'm happy you were. I want to check that one out. I haven't read it yet. Julia, you have helped millions and millions of people. reconnect with their creativity. When you reflect on your life and work so far, what do you hope your legacy will be?
Speaker #1
That I helped light a lot of lamps, that we had this conversation and then you went off and wrote your book. And that people reading my work were inspired to do their own work. And I sometimes feel like I wish I were better known as an artist and that instead I'm famous as a teacher. And then I say, what better thing to be famous for?
Speaker #0
Yeah. And there's a lot of art in teaching. And also this poetry book, Julia. I feel big things for it. I really do. The poetry has flowed through every single book you've written to the point where I actually thought you'd already written a poetry book. So this feels like a great moment of stepping out and claiming your artistry once again.
Speaker #1
Yes, I hope so. I hope people will go to my website, juliacameronlive.com. It has a great deal of art in it. his plays, it has movies, it has poems, it has songs. And I hope people will spend some time getting to know that.
Speaker #0
Well, we'll make sure that all of our creative cuties do. We're going to put that link in the show notes and we'll be looking out for the poetry book, Cannot Wait. Is there any final word you'd like to leave with the listener?
Speaker #1
I want you to try morning pages. That's my final word. That is my most productive thought. And I feel like if you try them, you will be led forward. And being led forward, you will find yourself discovering probes of creativity within yourself.
Speaker #0
Well, you heard it from the queen herself. Go try those morning pages. Find your troves of creativity. Check out Julia Cameron live.com. Get her new book, the daily artist's way. It's excellent. And Julia, thank you for being a beacon for all of us. And for you inspired me, as you know, this podcast would not exist without your work. I adore you. You are a mentor to me. And I'm just so grateful. that I get to exist in the same timeline as you. Thank you for being here.
Speaker #1
You're very welcome. It was a pleasure to talk to you.
Speaker #0
There you have it, our sixth episode with the queen, the great Julia Cameron. One of the things that I love the most about talking with Julia is that she reminds us that creativity isn't something we have to chase or force. It's something we return to again. and again, and again. So maybe today that looks like writing a few morning pages. Maybe it looks like doing something playful that you love to do as a kid. Maybe it looks like letting yourself want the thing you've been quietly wanting, but afraid to say out loud. Whatever it is, let this be your invitation to begin. You can find Julia, her work, and her incredible books, including The Daily Artist's Way at juliacameronlive.com and follow her on Instagram. at Julia Cameron Live. Be sure to check out her poetry and get excited for that book that's coming out. I love, love her poems. As always, if this episode resonated with you, I'd love for you to share it with a friend or a family member who could use a little bit more creativity and healing in their life. And follow us on socials at Unleash Your Inner Creative and at Lauren LaGrasso. Unleash is executive produced by me, Lauren LaGrasso, and also hosted, and it is edited by Blondel Garcon. I love you and I believe in you. Talk with you next week.

About Unleash Your Inner Creative with Lauren LoGrasso (A Creativity Podcast)

New episodes are out every Wednesday - follow, rate and review wherever you get your podcasts :)

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About Unleash Your Inner Creative with Lauren LoGrasso (A Creativity Podcast)

New episodes are out every Wednesday - follow, rate and review wherever you get your podcasts :)

Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

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