- Speaker #0
Are you lying to yourself? Are you telling yourself you're fine when you're really feeling completely grayed out or like your life force energy is just gone? Are you saying, it's not that bad, everything's okay, when you know deep down you're not really living? If what I'm saying is hitting something in you, today's episode might just be the message you need to wake up and give yourself permission to truly live. Welcome to Unleash Your Inner Creative with Lauren LaGrasso. I'm Lauren LaGrasso. I'm a Webby Award-winning podcast host and producer, singer-songwriter, public speaker, and creative coach. This show sits at the intersection of creativity, self-development, spirituality, and mental health, and it is meant to give you tools to love, trust, and know yourself enough to redefine your relationship with fear and go after whatever it is that's on your heart. Today's guest is Jen Pasteloff. She's a best-selling author. speaker, artist, teacher, and creator of the wildly popular sub stack, Proof of Life. You might know her from her viral posts, her workshops, or her bestselling book on being human. She navigates the world as a deaf woman, something she brings to her work with radical presence, vulnerability, and joy. Jen's work is brutally honest, radically loving, and focused on helping people stop pretending and start living in their truth. And her new book, Proof of Life, is all about that. She teaches how to let go, let love, and stop looking for permission to live your life. I highly recommend the book and it is out now, so check it out. In this episode, we get into how to stop lying to yourself and recognize when you're stuck in being fine, the body signals that show up when you're abandoning yourself, the deep connection between shame, people-pleasing, body image, and addiction, how to start living for yourself and stop waiting for permission and how... art can help us move through grief and come back to ourselves. This conversation is a wake-up call, a soft place to land, and a mirror. If you've been numbing, shrinking, hiding, or hoping somebody else will come save you, this is your reminder that you are the one you've been waiting for. Now here she is, Jennifer Pasteloff. I mean, you also have had this incredible... I don't know. What would you even call the past? It's been six years, I think, since I saw you. Past six years.
- Speaker #1
It's funny. At the very beginning of the book, I say something that I got in literally as the book was locked. I'm like, but wait, because I had an epiphany, which was, you know, at first when I left my marriage, my old primal voice that I was a bad person because, you know, I believed all my life that I killed my dad. It was my fault. And that came back with a vengeance. all of a sudden, like, I'm a bad person again, and I wrecked my life. And some people actually were like, you're wrecking your life, you know, and so the inner voice, other people. And contrary, I neither wrecked nor destroyed, but I expanded it. I would say expansion. And as someone who thought irrevocably, this is scientific fact, change will kill me, I resisted it at all costs, and I mean that literally. I allowed for it and it's been expansion, expansion. And like, who knew? I didn't. And that it excites me because I think so many of us, and I raise my hand, like live my life as if I already know, you know, like, and no, we don't.
- Speaker #0
So why do you think we rebrand expansion as destruction?
- Speaker #1
Love your, I love your like savvy rebrand. Well, it wasn't rebranding. It's that that's what it felt like. It felt like. oh my god, I ruined everything. And it's expansion. But it felt like the same thing because, first of all, upheaval, change, you know, it'll be different for each person, how it feels in your body. But I mean, it's sort of like, you know, when you're really excited, it feels like nerves, it's like it feels like the same thing. But when you can get a little bit, when you can get still or have some hindsight or gain a little bit of clarity, you can take a step back and go, wait a minute. Hold on. First of all, I didn't die from changing and I didn't ruin anything. And a lot of that, you know, for me and it sounds like for you is old programming that I carried my entire life, which is, of course I did. I ruined everything and I and I couldn't allow for any other possibility. So, yeah, of course. Look what I did yet again. And I was able to be like, wait, no, no. I made room for like. just so much possibility. I think, like, we all have different reasons. Trauma. programming because of the way it feels, you know, you know, it lands in the body. It feels a certain way and it registers as fear and panic or whatever. And, you know, I think it's different for everyone. But but if we take a breath and we go, wait a minute, I'm still here. And we give it some space. However long that is for you, we can look and go, wow, wow, I expanded. I mean, and with the not drinking, I mean, really, I was like, oh, my God. You know, the classic like I have it a little bit with With thinking about my Italy retreat in the fall, it'll be the first time I'm ever there with not drinking. And I have all this anxiety around it and like pre-grief, but...
- Speaker #0
Pre-grief. I love that.
- Speaker #1
It's true, though. Yeah. I'm grieving and I have to keep going, Jen, it's not September. Jennifer, you're in Vancouver. So I think the not drinking, I thought it's going to be so boring. I mean, it's so cliche. It can be so boring. I mean, quite the opposite. And of course, everyone told me that, but you have to find it out for yourself. more expansion than I could have ever thought possible, far greater. And I rolled my eyes whenever sober people told me that, like regard, you know, I'd be like, oh, you know, whatever. And here you are.
- Speaker #0
So this book, I really see it as a guide on how to fully live, knowing you deserve to be here. Proof of life. It is out now.
- Speaker #1
That's it. I mean, I've been like the last couple of days, you know, I'm like, first of all, I'm so sick of myself. You know, it's just like. this time or I'm like saying the same thing again and I'm like oh my god that sounds like a sound bite it's just because I've been saying it but um three times in the last two days someone's been like so essentially they're like asking what's the one thing or or what's the advice and and I panic like you know when someone's like what's Solarm what's your favorite movie and it is like all of a sudden you're like I've never seen a movie like you just yeah what are movies who am I I mean what day in it, right? Yeah. So. I don't know. And then I was like, well, you know, we don't have to show for shit. And I still find myself doing like, now will you love me? Look, if I hit the nude, now will you love me? And aren't I worth it now? And like the truth is, there's nothing, nothing in the world, nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing. I don't care who you are, that you can show, you can hold in your hand, you can followers. That is like makes you, you know, just by virtue of you being born, you're worthy. But really, yesterday Rich Roll asked me this and I got to it and he got emotional because I really struck a nerve with him. I said, it's that you get to have a life that lights you up. And because his whole thing was like, you know, I've always felt like I have to earn it. And like I got emotional because I think so many of us, right? But if that's what proof of life is, no, you get to have a life that lights you up. You don't have to prove that you're worthy to. You don't like it's not only for them. And if you don't know what lights you up, go out and fucking find out and don't beat yourself up like I'm already 36 and I have no idea. Flip the narrative as however you find a way to do that to go. Great. I get to go discover.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, that's why I think your book touched me so much. And I'm candidly I'm a slower reader, so I'm halfway through it.
- Speaker #1
But yes, I am, too. And I'm ADD. And as a writer, it makes me so ashamed. and I'm going to say it so that I don't hide in shame. So thank you.
- Speaker #0
Of course. And yeah, I want to get to all the, how we can really shame. That part's really important.
- Speaker #1
Because it also, I know some people, like I have a friend who's a genius and she really can speak and retain, but I appreciate that because I feel like you, it lives in you more and you marinate and what have you when you read slowly.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. Well, and the reason why it's touching me so much is there's a million of them. But one big thing that I left out of my recap, is that when I turned 33, I went through this year, my Jesus year. I was like, hell yes, it's my Jesus year. Everything's going to go amazing. I don't know why I thought that because that was the year he got crucified, but I thought it was going to be...
- Speaker #1
Did you not hear me just say that?
- Speaker #0
Did you just say my Jesus year?
- Speaker #1
Okay, when you play back the thing, I said, you said when I turned 33, I said you became Jesus, but you didn't hear me. You said my Jesus year. And I was like, yeah, jing, but you didn't even hear me. Chicks. You owe me it. You owe me a Coke.
- Speaker #0
I would be happy to buy you one. And some salt and vinegar chips. I found out they're your fave. Man,
- Speaker #1
I thought you're younger than me. You might not even get that reference because that was a thing when I was a kid. You owe me a Coke. Oh,
- Speaker #0
it was when I was two. I mean, they're moving real fast today. They speak in alien speak. I don't know what the heck is going on. But no.
- Speaker #1
So, 33. So,
- Speaker #0
yeah, 33. I went through this year of realizing, oh, my God, I could get everything I want and still not be happy. Or I could not get everything I want and not be happy. And maybe this actually is an inside job. And so I had to untangle my self-worth from what I did out in the world and come to realize who I am is the best thing about me. But it's still something I struggle with.
- Speaker #1
Oh, I just got full body chills, Lawrence. You know, I'm going to really like bow down because I'd like to think every year I get wiser and I believe I do and just like a better version of myself. And I thought that was true for everyone, but I don't know. And I think like some people, you know, go their whole lives without having that revelation you had or getting to that place. And 33 is like baby to have that. Some people wake up maybe at like 80 or never, right? And so... Models have.
- Speaker #0
Thank you.
- Speaker #1
Because. And then, of course, you know, my big thing is the knowing and the embodying are vastly different in my experience because I'm really self-aware. And I know that what you're saying, but it's more like, yeah, but how? How do you do that? Right.
- Speaker #0
How do you do that when you're going about this career path, which requires some level of. Not affirmation. Yeah. Affirmation from the general public.
- Speaker #1
Hello. I'm in pre-pub period. You're preaching the choir.
- Speaker #0
So how are you holding on to your inherent goodness while having big aspirations?
- Speaker #1
I believe in something that I, you know, I dropped out of college accidentally, but I happen to be the dean of this school called the School of Whatever Work. And barring that, you're not intentionally hurting yourself or anyone else. And I firmly live my life that way and I believe in it. Meaning, and it could change every day, you, there is, I cannot answer that. No one can except for their own selves. So I can answer, well, I could tell you what I did, but I can't be like, let me tell you people. Here's what to do because you have to, just like a life that lights you up, what lights you up, A, it might change, you know, but you have to discover it and know for yourself and listen to your body. But It changes on the daily. I have to discover what works, what doesn't, and figure out what works, right? And so that will be different for each person, I believe. So for me right now, I will be handed because shame loss, you know, which is about, I'm not going to, I don't need to tell you every detail of my life, people, but I won't hide in shame. It's been really hard. I feel insecure. I feel like annoying because I haven't stopped talking about how important pre-orders are because You have to because they're the most important thing. And yet, I know it's got to be like, shut up already, right? I'm confronted with all my old stories that suddenly are like alive and well again of like, you're never going to get there, wherever there is. Who do you think, you know, all of it. And all the people that, for every Lauren that's like, I want you on my podcast, I love you. There's the person that doesn't open the email that. You know, I'm not famous enough. I'm not where, you know, and so all of that. And it's been really hard hounded with I am seven and a half months sober. So I have no buffer. OK, so having said all that, I will say I was in a really bad spiral recently. And my sister was like, you're in a spiral. And I knew it. And one of my old things is I pick my face. So I go in the mirror. and like literally create things that aren't there, like to the point of like scuff. And then so that there is something there, but it's, I have a line in a poem in the book where I say, you know, there's nothing left beside to destroy what's closest. I mean, I was doing that. So I reach out to my people, my I got you people, who remind me it's going to be okay, my favorite words, who see me when I can't see myself. I came here to be with Henry, my partner. I haven't seen him in a month. And I told my friend yesterday, I was like, I need to go and like feel held. And I mean that like literally and metaphorically and an exhale. And so and it's like you said, like that, if you want to call affirmation or whatever. But now when you solely rely on it, I think it becomes a problem. But my gosh, it's it's it's not to be underestimated. Weirdly, I don't know how to draw to save my life, and I've become a painter. I... magic. And so that's become my medicine. So that, because I'm not in my head and it's making art, a lot of it, though, is my people. And then it ebbs and flows. So when they need me, I'm there. But, like, I am like, remind me it's gonna be okay. Remind me I don't suck. Remind me, you know, and just, like... So all the different things I have in my toolbox. Being silly, finding ways to laugh. I would say I was about to lie. It's not a lie, but like moving my body because that makes me feel good. I just somehow cannot because beginning again is the hardest thing starting. I can't get going. But today I will. We will go on a walk and that for the basic reasons of endorphins and just, you know, beauty hunting. So I will be like, all right. pull my head out of my ass, buy beautiful things right now. So, you know, I have an arsenal of tools, and every day I'll add to them if needed. I start my day with a prayer. It's just a set of words, like, of what I want to remember. And it has to have humor in it, or I'm like, oh, shut up. You know? So the answer is I don't know how for you listening, but I do know that there is a how, but you've got to find it and be willing to discover. and play and let yourself off the hook and begin again.
- Speaker #0
I love there's so much I took from that. But one of the main things that I don't think I've ever heard another human being say is that there has to be humor in connecting with your higher power. Like, I love that you're.
- Speaker #1
Oh, that's what I that's what I resonate. I mean, yeah, well, we all like, you know, I'm not reinventing the wheel, right? I used to be so obsessed with Wayne Dyer. I still am. May he rest in peace. Me too.
- Speaker #0
He was my gateway drug into spirituality.
- Speaker #1
Would you say?
- Speaker #0
He was my gateway drug into spirituality.
- Speaker #1
Me too. And my big joke was like stalking works because by the time he died, we were friends. He was recommending me. I'm joking, people. But I remember he would be like, how may I serve? And I was like, it changed my life. It's like, you know, he's parroting Jesus. We all, you know, but we respond to what resonates. Right. And so for me, if there isn't humor, I check out like I'm not interested in anything that takes herself too seriously or that's the way I. I respond that that's a value that's important to me. That's what lights me up. But I just start to disconnect when something's too precious or self-serious or self-important. And so, look, you do you. But I but I would venture a guess that most people actually are that way because there's such a disconnect when something is like like so, you know, you got to be in on the joke. And I remember Wayne used to be like, no one gets out alive. And so my son. I kid you not, my dad was the funniest person. My son is so funny. And I always think my dead father sent him. But my son, I was sick and I was coughing and the nurse was so funny. And I remember she leaned over me. My boob was in her face. And I was like, can we be friends? I was in an epidural. I also had some uncommonly Tibetan sound bowls on my belly. Wow. Because I say I'm woo-eth and Jew-eth. So. I was like, can we be friends? I go, are you a comedian? And he said something funny. I laughed, and he flew out on a laugh. Kid you not. Kid you not. Now, I said in a poem, in a book, I said, like, he was in on the joke already. Aw. And so, like, even that, you know, if you can't get, like, the sense of humor out of it all, you're kind of fucked. As someone who was deaf, small d deaf, you know, like. Can't hear for shit, mishear everything. If I didn't have a sense of humor, I wouldn't get out of bed. So that's got to be my thing or I just, I'm lost.
- Speaker #0
I love it. I love having honest conversations with God. I'm all about it. And I also love in reading your book.
- Speaker #1
What is God's book to you though? Is it like, hello, Lauren? No,
- Speaker #0
not at all. It's like, oh, LaGrasso, what are you doing now? You know, it's very,
- Speaker #1
it's very conversational.
- Speaker #0
I mean, I love. yeah I love just being myself and that was what I was going to go to I think it's so important for people listening to hear that you can write with your true voice because I think a lot of times when we go to be creative the deaf people you can write with your true voice and I did that if you when you keep her in the book I mean
- Speaker #1
Lauren I opened the book first of all my poetry is in it which is the big win as someone who dropped out of college and like didn't think they got to But like I have a glossary in the opening of the book of my terms. And I like I'm irreverent and then poetic. And I was so proud because, look, I have an editor. I'm a big publisher. There's certain things I had to, you know, adhere to. But I stayed so true to my voice.
- Speaker #0
You were on every single page. That's what I was going to say. And like the glossary of terms I thought was iconic. Can you just take people into that a little bit? Because I've never seen anybody else do that.
- Speaker #1
I'm so excited they went for it. You have no idea. I I feel like I and the fact that I had the balls to ask for it because it was so like, I don't know. And then I thought and the fact that, you know, it's self-help, which in my first book, I had such an ego because, you know, I made my way out of waitressing by becoming a yoga teacher. And I feel like I couldn't get rid of that identity. And so I was like, no matter what, I'm being human will not be self-help. And of course, after it published, I was like, you know. And I really got clear on, I don't care what category it is, as long as it gets in the hands of whoever. And so I got really clear on that. It was a beautiful lesson. So, but self-help can be eye-rolly and precious. Anne Lamott. Queen Anne Lamont blurbed this book, and on the cover, she references my sense of humor. What that signifies to the reader, what that signals, rather, to the reader is it doesn't take itself too seriously, not too precious. It has a sense of humor.
- Speaker #0
And it does.
- Speaker #1
Glossary was like, you know what? Fuck it. I hope they go for it. And they did.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. Take me through or take the listener through a few of your greatest hit Jen Pasteloff-isms.
- Speaker #1
You're hilarious. But I don't want to forget because I have ADD and I will. When you said, you know, when I have conversations with God, well, I don't know if you remember because you are younger, but like when that book Conversations with God was like there was a book called that was like so popular. Well, there was a movie made of it and Henry played the guy. He was the star of it. Isn't that funny?
- Speaker #0
Shout out to Henry.
- Speaker #1
I'm dating God.
- Speaker #0
That's amazing.
- Speaker #1
God is my partner. And Passed Off's greatest hit. Okay, well. You know, the uninitiated, the inner asshole is, you know, that voice that I don't want to say we all have because what we do, but I think small children may not. And I in a point develops. But again, I use asshole lovingly, but it helps me laugh at myself. You can call it your inner bully or inner critic. Roger. Sorry, Rogers. Whatever. Right. But a new one in this book is the ITG. You know what that is? imaginary time god oh yeah it's that imaginary timeline that somehow collectively a lot of us most of us adhere to until we don't like i'm too late or i'm behind or you know and whatever age you are there is no too late that is bullshit yeah now i will say some things look if you want to biologically carry a child and like you know maybe for that but like there'll be other ways But barring that... all the other things that stories we tell ourselves that we're too late or we're behind or those are the big ones. It's just not true. According to who?
- Speaker #0
Yeah. And then there's one that you brought up earlier that I think is important for people to hear. Beauty Hunter.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. It's my spiritual practice, a.k.a. my pulling my head out of my ass practice. So it's a way, you know, it's about mindfulness, which is about noticing. So it's a way to stop wherever you are right now and identify name. five beautiful things, five because it's doable. It's not overwhelming and not of your life, but right now. And sometimes it's easy. Like right now it's easy. But when it's not easy is when you're in a really bad mood or you've just been rejected or you're tired or someone's dying, you know, and yet the boot, it will still be there. And then it becomes, A, it becomes habitual. So it becomes easier. Also, you get to start, you find that. I started to like redefine what's beautiful or what brings me delight. And also it makes you pay attention to the now. So I say it takes my head out of my ass because it causes me to go, okay, let's pay attention to like what's around me. And with other people, I do it like a little game, like with strangers, like because it's easier, I think, until it's not to be like, to find what irritates us or whatever, is to like practice. It doesn't have to be just about external, but just like, all right, if I had to give them a little note with five beautiful things about them, what would it be? And you start to train yourself with that and there's no downside. I'm not talking about like toxic positivity, but looking for it instead of what upsets you, what pisses you off and what annoys you and what's going wrong. I love it.
- Speaker #0
Can we get into the fine of it all? Life is fine. We're trapped in fine. leaving the land of fine. Tell me about this concept and how to get out of fine.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, it's funny, too, because yesterday, Rich and I corrected him. He said something like talking. He brought it up and he goes, you know, and you wanted something more. And I said, what up? I want to be really clear on that. I don't I don't want to say that. I didn't say it in my book. It's not more. It's different because, you know, I love my ex. I'm not in love with him, but I never want to say it like I wanted different, right? So the land of fine was, look, on paper. And of course, I thought no one knew that I was not happy. And no one said anything rightfully so, except two very close friends, because there's no one's place until I was leaving. And then everyone in the world, I'm telling you, like my editor, my book cried because she was like, I couldn't believe it. I had no idea it was like as plain as day. You know, and everyone was like, I thought you just had like an arrangement. And in a way we did. I didn't think. It goes back to I get to have this. And that is not like this privilege thing, even though we're privileged, especially as white people, right? We never have to worry about like being denied something because of the color of our skin. But it's not like I get to have this and you don't. It's just what your inner asshole tells you you don't get to have. Boy, happiness for you. What was it? Oh, love. Love gets to feel good. Well, that's it. Birthright is not stress or misery or... And so I didn't think I got to be happy. So I had this, I had big love everywhere, except in my marriage, except in my home. But I was fine because A, I didn't feel like I had no sex drive, so I didn't care. I got a connection everywhere else. I was fine. And I was disconnected from my body for so long that it didn't even register that I had any needs or wants, let alone like I was denying them. But it was fine. and You know, there's a sense of like, well, I mean, there's no bruises, like he's not abusing. I'm not. So how dare you? Like, you know, and there's a lot of people who said to me, like, I, I feel really ungrateful asking for something different. Or how dare I? And there's all sorts of reasons why we accept. I don't get to want. And so one thing I say in the book is like. If you're going to like start to question, like think I'm just some like navel gazing memoirist that blew up her marriage so she could write a book because her husband was lovely. They were fine. Well, first of all, I say it's worse than you think. They're not thinking about me at all. No one gives a fuck. What? And if you're like, but why? But why? I go, because I wanted to. And then I say this sentence. My want was enough. My want is enough. And that is revolutionary, I think, especially for women. my want is enough so if fine doesn't feel like fine but what if I want something different what if I want like to be lit up what if I want you know I didn't have what I have now which is like a best friend connection all these things and you don't even know right but um hey I didn't I didn't allow it I didn't think I got to all of the things but your want is enough that right there That's it. And you get clear on that. And if it takes every single day to remember that, then you'll know what to do next. I can't say for anyone what that would be or what your particular is, if it's a job, if it's whatever. But your want is enough. But then you got to go, well, now what?
- Speaker #0
I love how you talk about in the book because you had already told your ex-husband you were unhappy.
- Speaker #1
And by the way, full disclosure, we're not divorced yet. Oh, right. I still, the f- What do you call him?
- Speaker #0
Your ex? Just sex?
- Speaker #1
Well, yeah. I mean, what's funny, I thought for sure we'd be divorced by the time. It took about three years with the book. And I'm really grateful that I think, you know, that I kept saying my ex, which he is. But we kind of live together and it's weird, but it's our weird. And it's like we're roommates like we always were. Yeah. But I, on paper, we're still married. And I share that because... There are so many ideas that we have and ways that we judge ourselves and others. And the more that I share that, I hope it gives people the feeling of like, well, maybe I don't have to hide my weird. Whatever you perceive as weird, you get to have your own weird. So my ex.
- Speaker #0
Your ex. Okay. And that makes sense. And thank you for sharing all that. So I only bring it up because you talk about in the book, you told him that you were not happy.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, but then, but then like.
- Speaker #0
that was that nothing really happened for quite some for a bit of time yeah and then you met henry and you guys started talking and just like forming this like friendship but quickly realized like i had a party and i like with robert and it was nothing romantic it was just like you know how i am like i just like light up a connection and he wasn't on instagram or anything i came home and made this post about him and i'm like robert and i met this guy and oh my god and
- Speaker #1
You know, and I but I said something very, very, very bizarre, which is like, you know, I was so excited. I'm like, he lives in L.A. We have a new friend. I said, I said, you know, I said, you're on Instagram and I know he wasn't on it. I go, you're going to see us together and you're going to think they've known each other forever. And I mean, I had no idea. There was nothing romantic like, yeah, I do believe and I don't ever talk like this except. Obviously I do because I'm about to say it. Like, we were gonna meet no matter what. But the fact that I said that, it just blows my mind because there was nothing romantic. There was nothing, nothing. It was just connection. It was like, oh yeah, my people.
- Speaker #0
And the aliveness he brought you, it seems, was like an inciting incident for you giving yourself permission.
- Speaker #1
I didn't know. You know, have you ever had the thing? You don't know what you're missing because who you know? Oh, yeah.
- Speaker #0
I didn't know. Yes. Or I pretended to not know.
- Speaker #1
Well, you had a pretty good inkling, but until you saw the proof in front of your face or you felt the proof in your heart or in your sacral chakra.
- Speaker #0
Well, here's the thing. Yes, look, I knew I didn't have that in my marriage, but what I didn't know is I didn't care. I was like, I don't need that. So what I'm saying is I didn't know that actually that was a deep, deep need.
- Speaker #1
Yeah.
- Speaker #0
That's the part I mean is I didn't know. Yeah, I knew. I knew what I had in my marriage and it was fine. Like I said, it was fine. And I was like, I'm good. I don't need that. I didn't know until I knew.
- Speaker #1
And I guess I just want to point out for anyone listening who's having a hard time leaving a situation, a relationship, a job, whatever it is, like whatever brings you to that knowing, there's no need to beat yourself up over it.
- Speaker #0
Thank you. And guess what? That's why I think the whole thing with like being self-aware and the reasons don't matter as much as the now what so great it brought you here you can ruminate how to unpack it and like beat it to death how and why but it's more like okay now what because there's so many things like
- Speaker #1
I mean even my past relationship like it was for me the what brought me out of it was a very dark moment where I couldn't unsee it anymore and do I wish it had taken less than that yeah But that's what it took.
- Speaker #0
Like, do you really? I mean, there's no universe. There's no twice. I mean,
- Speaker #1
it is what it is. Yeah. There's like, there's nothing I can do about it. It is what it is. Like that was my journey for whatever reason. But like whatever it takes is great. Once you know, like if you act on it, once you know, it's great.
- Speaker #0
But, but I think you and I are the same in this, but there's no bypassing. So it's not like in the moment. That wasn't the most painful thing and you felt like you were going to die. I'm guessing. But so like the gift, you know, like my dad dying, there's been so many gifts. Did it was it a gift like from? No, you know, there's no like suddenly this thing. And then we go, well, I took this for me to become what I am now. You got to feel it. And if you don't, when you're doing such a great disservice, but you're lying to yourself because energy doesn't die. You are. You're just. I'm dropping it down. But so there's there's no shortcut or bypass. You feel it. But then it's like, you know what? You're able to go, well, all right. But hey, look, all of that brought me to where I am right fucking now.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. Speaking of that, can you talk about the basement door? Because I really like this. I think it's important.
- Speaker #0
That's really weird. You know, like I I couldn't cry my whole life. It's being emotionally constipated because when my dad died, I said, I don't care. And I told myself to be strong. And so it was. And so I, you know, after a very long time of doing that, it was just physiological response. I would have to go watch This Is Us to cry, but I couldn't access anything. I thought I was dead inside, like horrifyingly so. Suddenly, July 2022, I cried and I was frightened because it felt out of control. I met Henry, unrelated, unrelated to anything. Two days later, out of my mouth slipped. to my husband. I'm not happy. Unrelated. You know, I get back to California and then Henry reached out to both of us, Robert and I, because we were all going to be friends. And and then Henry, I fell in love with him over text and FaceTime. True story. And so I didn't have a therapist. And I reached out to a friend who's a rabbi, even though I haven't been in a synagogue since like my dad was alive. And because I had interviewed him on my podcast and And he knew about my inability to cry because he actually made me tear up years ago during the pandemic. And I was so floored. I was like, I don't cry. And I said, I need you. He said, I got you. And it was August 2022. And I went out in my car and no privacy and the heat. And we FaceTimed. And I was and I was alarmed. I couldn't stop crying. And it felt, you know, you feel I felt out of control because, A, it's been so long and it's. all the reasons and and I you know I can't stop crying and he said looked at me and he said you have been suppressing for so long and then he said but it's like the basement door is finally swung open and you're never gonna be able to pretend again and like my arm hair stood up and I I was like and uh he wasn't wrong and that's what it was I I um that's exactly what it was and so And then, and he said a lot. He said, you know, and I told him the truth. I said, I think I'm in love with someone else. And he said, you know. He said something like, make sure you end the marriage more beautifully than you began it. I mean, he said a lot of things and I did my best. I didn't know how to do that or what it looked like or anything. But the basement door thing and I realized that's what it was. I've been, you know, not only could I no longer like hide behind the basement door, the door wasn't even there. You know, that's that's about like I know I'm not the only one who's lived in denial. And it's a wild, wild thing. So it's like what happens when that. And you don't anymore.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. So it's like when your self-denial drops out and you're suddenly confronted with the truth.
- Speaker #0
That and also, you know, my coping mechanism when I was eight and I thought it was 48 because everyone treated me that way and what have you. And I thought it was my fault my dad died. Like he literally said, you're being bad and making me not feel good. I hate you. Boom. Dead. Well, I said, I don't care. And I decided I'm a bad person, be strong. And I shoved everything back and down inside. And of course, it was like, cool. I found a way to bypass grief. And cool, I don't care. I shoved it all back down. Yeah, right. Energy doesn't die. So the basement door is also like everything I shoved down the basement. Well, guess what? I was eight. That would happen when my son turned eight just very recently. Yep. I got sober, all the things. And so. The basement, it can be anything, really. But yes, it's self-denial. It's also all those things we lie to ourselves, like not letting ourselves feel or shoving things down or suppressing. They're going to find their way out. There's one way or another.
- Speaker #1
Would you talk about that moment when your son's name is Charlie, right? Yeah. When Charlie turned eight and how it was such a turning point for you and why it was a way into self-compassion.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, you know, first it was just even the age eight. Eight is like, um, so there was that, right? But it was particularly, I went back home, I went back to Jersey twice, and I hadn't been back in ages within a one-year period. And I brought him, and he hadn't been back, he hadn't been there since he was seven months old. And my Uncle Johnny was my dad's best friend, not really my uncle, but whatever. So, A, I went to my dad's grave, which I rarely do. And I feel guilty, even though I know it's like he's not there, you know. And Charlie came and that like, you know. But what happened was I would look at my son and he's like this little like, I mean, he's not a baby, but he's a mom. And I would, and all of a sudden, not a lie, first time in my life ever, ever, ever, that I could see myself with any tenderness, compassion or softness ever, ever. And I almost like. I couldn't be with it. I was like, wait, that was me? I couldn't, like, I really felt like, I mean, I was like, I remember one night with Henry, I was in his, like, I was hyperventilating. How could I be this old and only now? Like, how did I not realize? And it took my son turning eight. And I was like, it was me? And I just, I felt everything. I felt so sad for little me. I felt angry at my mom and everyone for letting me be like, I'm fine, you know, all of it. And then We went back another time. I can't remember now if Charlie was with me on this one. And Uncle John was telling me stories about my dad. I recorded a lot. And I knew I had like a full tumbler of whiskey. You know, I drank my face off, which no one even clocked because I've been so self-aware and vigilant my whole life that I don't register as drunk unless I've had like alcohol poisoning level. So most people didn't even know, right? And I'm like drinking my fucking face off. And he's like telling me, you know, my dad was a drug addict. That's how he died when I was eight. And so I just got really clear. And it didn't happen until Henry and I were just fighting all the time. And I'm not a fighter. I mean, hilariously, like notorious for that. And then Charlie, and it was just everything. And I got real clear. I was like, you know what? I said to my dad, I'm going to do what you couldn't do. And I don't know when my time will be up, God willing, not for a while, but I am not here to cut it any shorter than it has to be like my father did. And it was just a big old wake up call. And and because I was able to finally see myself with compassion. But also, you know, in my TED talk that I titled Nothing You Do Is Wrong, because that's what Charlie said to me one day apropos of nothing like. I mean, it's like the Buddha is coming down. God. And of course, barring you're not intentionally hurting anyone or yourself, what I realized when he said that to me, my eight-year-old. was I've been waiting my whole life for someone to say that. And I've been waiting for someone to give me permission to stop hating myself. I've been waiting for someone to make me stop drinking. And I was like, yeah, no one's going to do that. And it just was like, so really it was coincided with the big one is Charlie turning eight. And everything that I shoved down the basement came up and I got really clear. I'm not going to kill myself like my father did.
- Speaker #1
Thank you, Jen. Thank you for sharing that and just speaking so beautifully about it. I'm wondering in your sobriety, how you've been.
- Speaker #0
Which is new. Which is new.
- Speaker #1
Congratulations. I mean, it's amazing. How have you been working on spending time with your inner eight-year-old and mothering yourself?
- Speaker #0
Yeah. Painting, painting, painting, painting, painting. And, you know, I have these little pictures of myself on my desk. And with Charlie, you know, at first, I was really beating myself up because I was like, oh, my God, all the all those times I wasn't really present. And oh, my God. And that's why when he came up to me, apropos of nothing and said that, like he was reading my mind, it was like, what? I mean, it was so apropos of nothing. He wasn't even home. He just walked in. And like, so, you know, and also found silly. When I drive, you know, I talk to myself, my younger self, and I do a lot of meditations where I visualize eight-year-old me. And I used to never be able to because, like, intimacy and I could never be tender to myself. So it made me cringe. I was like, oh, God, that's a, I could never. And so a lot of that. But truthfully, not enough. Because it's still, like, there's still a resistance. And I put, I do my best to put that down every day, that resistance, tenderness toward. me and younger me, which is one in the same.
- Speaker #1
I mean, all of this, this journey you've been on over your whole life, but especially the past several years, it really feels like a reclamation of your life force energy and your creativity, your sexuality. Like, you know, something interesting I found out when I started this podcast is like, it's all on the same chakra. They say the sacral chakra is the one that holds.
- Speaker #0
I just got the chills. Yeah.
- Speaker #1
Creativity, sexuality, life force energy,
- Speaker #0
like taking up space and being there. creativity and sexuality but like when i get the chills it's mean it means it's a true so but that's really interesting and amazing and that makes perfect sense because like you know since i've fallen in love with henry an explosion of creativity and the other part and it's like whoa and i'm here for it but i didn't know that and i love it so i'm i'm interested to know about your creative journey?
- Speaker #1
Like how did the painting start? Where did that?
- Speaker #0
I suck if I know, but I will tell you that, like, I was a person my whole life. I was like, oh, hell no, I can't draw. Like, I would never even, and I can't draw a stick figure. And I still can't. So, you know, the stories we tell ourselves at whatever point as a little kid, I was like, no, I'm not an artist. And then we run with that our whole lives. At my son's sixth birthday, he just turned nine. I got like. a bouncy house, but I also got little baby canvases and like art supplies. And I was like, I'm that mom now. And like two of the kids were out there, but I was the one like on these little canvases. And and it tickled me because I was like, look at me. I can't even draw a stick figure. But I like loved it. And I had leftovers and I had a retreat the next week. So I bought the I brought them to the retreat and made a creativity corner. And again, I'm the one out there. And then I ordered more stuff and then I couldn't stop. And I didn't question it. I wasn't like. but why? I just went with it. And what I discovered was hours would pass and I was like, whoa, whoa, I'm on to something. And then I would discover, this is the only time when I'm not talking shit to myself. And I was like, whoa. And because I didn't know what I was doing, meaning not formally trained, can't draw, and I'm not being self-deprecating, I'm being kind of just literal. There was such a freedom. And I allowed for that, that play. And it became like an addiction in a way, but it was like medicine. And then and then the coolest thing happened was like people were like, oh, my God. And people started buying it. And whether they like it or not is irrelevant. But the fact that I allowed for it, I find so many people are like, I could never do that. And that saddens me. And it makes me happy that hopefully I model that maybe one person will remember that they're not a fixed object in space, that they get to like. discover, you know, because who knew this was in me, right? But really, it was that I allowed, and that I allowed for play, and that I allowed for sucking, in air quotes, because... There was no attachment to it wasn't my career, if it was going to be good. And that creates such a freedom. So I began to take that into my writing, into every area of my life as best as I could. Like it began to inform every area. And I was like, whoa, there's something to this. And I teach that in my writing workshop. It's just like, look at me now, like embodying this except with painting. And I wasn't able, but now I, you know, I was able to. begin to I practice it so much bring it to my writing meeting this freedom this like there's no getting it right I'm not talking about the editing but I like you said I can use my voice because who gets to say what's good there's no good very few things are good or bad well well it's again my want is enough I do you do and so the the the creativity and I let myself I let my I allowed for play for like, oh, I don't like how this. I'm going to paint over it. And it was just like medicinal. And then the funny thing is the feedback. People were like obsessed. And it was the freedom that attracted people because so many people are like they get to win their head. And but because I had no idea what I was doing, there was none of that.
- Speaker #1
I love the part of the book where you tell people to write a poem that sucks.
- Speaker #0
Absolutely. Because, you know, if you give yourself, first of all, it probably won't. And it who cares, you know, as Anne Lamont. says, you know, write a first shitty draft. But if you let yourself off the hook before you begin, you are you have already won because the freedom in that, like if you're already like, I got to I got to, you know, there's all these parameters and limitations and you're in your head and the inner asshole, the editor, they're all there. They're not invited when you're writing. Let the editor come out when you're editing. But when you're in the creativity mode, it's like you got to be willing to stop. That's where the magic and the freedom comes in. Because also, I will again say, who gets to say what sucks? But if you are like, no, I have to get it right or be perfect, you're already screwed. Because A, there's no such thing. And you're once again, as I did my whole life, putting yourself in a prison that A, isn't even locked. That you put yourself in, you know?
- Speaker #1
So true. I mean, there's so many. I wrote literally 35 questions for you, so we will never get to them all.
- Speaker #0
I love that. You know, it makes you feel like I that I mean, you can imagine how happy that makes me. It's like, oh, my God, because it's scary before the book comes out. Like, am I an idiot? What about, you know? And so if you wrote 35 questions, it means some things actually piqued your interest or landed or, you know. Oh,
- Speaker #1
my gosh. Everything did. Yeah, because I'm also in like a state of reinvention and big change and trying things and stepping out there. and So many things I needed to hear. I also relate a lot to a lot of the struggles you've been through. And yeah, it was really, really helpful for me. And it was a good mirror for me. I can't wait to finish it. And you've written something really beautiful. That's going to help a lot of people.
- Speaker #0
Just that means a lot. And like, you know, I feel like you're like my younger sister, because I have a couple years on you or more. It's like there's a beauty in that where I, I like I'm excited for you because I don't believe in the timeline. But, but It's like there's a wisdom that comes with, you know, getting older. And I'm like, oh, and like that you're getting it now. I'd so much rather someone anytime you get it is great. Right. Whatever it is for you. But like it's so much rather like stop beating themselves up as much when they're 36 rather than 76. Yeah. Oh,
- Speaker #1
of course. No. I mean, life gets sweeter when we can have self-compassion. So thank you for being a guide. But I wanted to ask, because we don't have time to go through all my questions, maybe someday you and I can get coffee and I can ask you all my questions. What would be just one thing that you want to say to somebody who is sitting here listening and they feel like they're looking for permission to live their lives right now? What would be like one final thought we could leave them with?
- Speaker #0
You know what I said yesterday to Rich, which is you, you get, you get to have a life. that lights you up and like no one all those years I waited tables and I was you know I thought I wanted to be an actor and I was waiting to be discovered and I truly like a ding dong was like at the host I'm waiting but when I got really clear it wasn't waiting to be discovered I was waiting to be loved but then even deeper I was waiting for someone to give me permission and like and I in the book I was like I was like waiting at this bus stop for a bus bus called permission and the bus never came and there was no bus I am the bus and and it's absurd it's like You know, you could spend your whole life waiting. You could spend your whole life waiting. And, like, what can happen when we're done waiting? Well, everything. And I know it can feel scary. You can be afraid and do it anyway. And if you don't, that's okay. Let yourself off the hook. Maybe tomorrow, you know. You always, as long as you take a breath, you can begin again. And fuck yeah, being scared and doing it anyway. Do not wait until you're fearless because if you do become fearless, you become a sociopath. Nobody's fearless. Nobody's fearless. Fearless, like really think about it. Do you know anyone that is? without any fears. That's just weird. So if you wait till you're fearless, you're screwing yourself or you're waiting to become a sociopath. So like fearless-ish. And so be afraid and do it anyway, or don't, and let yourself off the hook and just keep remembering it. And I think also waiting to be fearless is just another way to sort of sabotage and not do the thing, right? I'm not ready. I'm still afraid. I'm always afraid. terrified of the book coming out. I'm afraid of and yet here I am. Right. So there's no there's just like I think about this stupid fake idea I had in New Jersey in the 90s and it's like I found it recently and that's why I thought about it and I talked about it in my TED talk. Like it's as if the same thing with being worthy. Look, see, I'm worth it. See, I'm really 21. See, I'm really worthy. Or can I have permission now? There's no one. And like they, whether it's your inner asshole or the world, will tell you, yeah, oh, you got to get permission. Well, guess what? You don't. And that's why I'm so excited that my poems are in the book. I didn't think I got to write poems. I thought I was going to be a scholar in academia. Not only am I not, I didn't graduate college. So no one told me I couldn't write poems, but I decided that. And I lived as if that was true. Well, guess what? My poems are throughout this book and it feels like such a personal win, a private personal, like, because I was done waiting for permission. And I even decided if they don't want the book, I will. I don't care. My poems are going in it. And I meant that because I was that committed to I'm giving myself permission. So it's like, how do you remember that you can spend your whole life waiting? And as corny as it sounds, I'm going to say it. You are the one you're waiting for. Yes, I said that corny line because it's true. It's true.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. And as you said earlier, you are the bus.
- Speaker #0
You are the bus, though. It's true. And it's like, you know, cliches are cliches for a reason. But and it's such a weird thing when we get real clear on them. We're like, well, shit. And I told you so. I know song. I know you did. Or I know mom. But, you know, and we've been conditioned, many of us and whatever the reasons are don't matter. But why we feel that we don't get. to or we need permission or something and really we don't your want is enough and i'm not saying you know necessarily you want to be a poet or you're gonna get a book deal but you damn well get to write poems you damn well get to be happy you get to have love that makes you feel good yeah well
- Speaker #1
jen thank you for writing it all for sharing your glossary of terms for your poems for your undeniable authentic voice. And for giving us all the guidebook based on your own life of how we can begin to invite ourselves to take up space and be fully here. I really appreciate you.
- Speaker #0
I'm so grateful to you. And like, you know, I'm certainly not over here like, yes, this is the guidebook for how to live your life. It's like, here's what I did. Yeah. I want to share it with you. And I'll give you some tips and tools. They might work. They might not. But maybe they'll make you laugh a little or not. Bye. It's, um, I do think, you know, sharing our shit is important and, uh, and helpful and beautiful. And like, it's everything, right? It's everything. And although I'm not actually giving people permission, it feels that way sometimes. Like when I read Lydia Joknovich, my beloved, when I read Chronology of Water the first time, it felt like it gave me permission. I was like, oh my God, you can do that? You could, how did she literally give me permission? No, but it felt like that. And so maybe that's the case. But and then eventually you're like, wait a minute on my own permission. But the more we share, the more it inspires each other. Oh, wait, maybe I don't have to hide. It's like,
- Speaker #1
I don't know. I think every time I've geared up to make a big decision that I was terrified of, I collected a little metaphorical file of proof until it all piled up to the point where it was undeniable. And your book, at the very least for someone, is proof.
- Speaker #0
What about at the very most? Just kidding. I love you. Thank you. Thank you. And you're wonderful. I'm such a champion of you. And I'm so I'm so glad you're doing this and that you have found this love that lights you up and all the things. You're a born connector and there's a magic in that that's invisible. And I love that. And that's this thing about there's nothing you can show that goes, look, you know, it's invisible and it's magical. And it's like you're doing it and you didn't ask permission.
- Speaker #1
Thanks, Jen. Thanks for listening and thanks to my guests. Jen passed a lot. To learn more about Jen, you can follow her at Jen Pasteloff and subscribe to her sub stack, Proof of Life. And you can check out her latest book, which is out now, also titled Proof of Life, wherever good books are found. Unleash Your Inner Creative is hosted and executive produced by me, Lauren LaGrasso, with theme music by Liz Full. Again, thank you, my sweet creative cutie, for being here. If today's episode spoke to your soul, please take a moment to rate, review, and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening. Share it with a friend who's ready to stop lying to themselves and start really living. And post about it on social. Tag me at Lauren LaGrasso and at Unleash Your Inner Creative, and I will repost to share my gratitude. Also tag the guests at Jen Pasteloff so she can share as well. My wish for you this week is that you get radically honest with yourself, that you stop saying I'm fine or numbing out, And Listen to that voice that's telling you something is wrong and something is off. Give yourself permission to leave what no longer fits and begin again because you will be shocked at the beauty on the other side. I love you and I believe in you. Talk with you next week.
