Transcription

• Speaker #0

  All right. Hi, David.

• Speaker #1

  Hello.

• Speaker #0

  Thank you very much for, not for having us, but for welcoming us or for making sure that we're here.

• Speaker #1

  My pleasure.

• Speaker #0

  The story behind that is that we went to a wine tasting in Shanghai last week. Yes, that's right. That we were hosting.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  And we met each other and actually it's Charles from Long Dai who introduced each other. Yes,

• Speaker #1

  that's right.

• Speaker #0

  And he told me... In the wine industry in China, there is God, and then there is David.

• Speaker #1

  No, no, that's not true.

• Speaker #0

  So you need to talk to him. And so we took a coffee the day after, or two days after, and here we are. We'll definitely talk about a lot of things, definitely about Chinese wines, about what you do. But first, can you introduce yourself?

• Speaker #1

  So my name is David, the founder and the CEO of WineApp. WineApp is a platform, an ecosystem. I run wine. So we do have offline experiences, restaurants, hotels, as well as online experience, such as e-commerce platform, mini program app.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, we'll deep dive into this in this interview. But what was very impressive for me when we met is that you're not just doing wine e-commerce. You do like B2B events, hotels, restaurants.

• Speaker #1

  That's right.

• Speaker #0

  And I think most of my audience is European or Western, so they never heard about YNAB, I guess, or very little. And when we came here and we saw every different thing that you're doing, for us, it's very impressive.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, well, there's still a lot we need to do. We do cover quite a bit. So we have three business segments. We have Clear Online, which goes across from different e-commerce to mini program to apps. As well as offline, you know, offline we do have...

• Speaker #0

  We have some glasses coming for us. Oh, yes,

• Speaker #1

  perfect. Okay. So in terms of offline, which I mentioned, hotels, restaurants, bars, for instance. But we also have a very interesting B2B segment, where is... We service a lot of embassies, companies, including airlines as well, servicing their wine portfolio. Not from a distributor perspective, but more for a wine consultant perspective where we don't just sell wines, but we do the pairing for our particular airline in China called Zhongyang Airline. We'll review their on-and-in-flight menu to pair the wine to go with it. So it's a little bit more interesting and sophisticated. and customers love it. I think it makes a huge difference. We also do wine tourism, where we take VIP customers to the likes of Long Dai, Rong or Weikou, where normally they don't get access to. So we do a wine tour on a quarterly basis for our VIP customers. And what's really new, I think we will announce next week that we've just...

• Speaker #0

  got a piece of land and we're gonna start plantation uh in yunnan so in a altitude that's about three thousand square meters yeah yeah it's a it's a lot of uh of different project and what's good is that it really encompass the life of that's right wine lover like you can basically do everything so so what we want to do as a wine lover you have many occasions that you need wine you need to take

• Speaker #1

  your girlfriend out for our occasion we have a french restaurant and you may need to entertain some government officials. We have a more serious Chinese restaurant with private rooms. At the same time, you want to go on holiday, we have a resort. And sometimes you just want to order a bottle which delivers to your door within 30 minutes. We do that as well. All comes around the ecosystem of wine lovers.

• Speaker #0

  So before going too deep into wine app, because I definitely have plenty of questions, but How did you start your wine journey?

• Speaker #1

  Good question. I was born in China. I went to London when I was 13, 14 years old. I lived there for almost 20 years. Through my journeys in the UK, kind of opened up my interest for wine. Started with five pounds a bottle from Tesco, Asda, and then slowly getting more sophisticated. And because the nature of my work, I was an investment banker, I was a trader, and then I work in consulting industry. I met a lot of wine lovers and that's how I got into it.

• Speaker #0

  So just like drinking nice bottles on the table and you're like, this thing is good.

• Speaker #1

  Maybe one day I can do something about it. So that's really kind of planted the seed. in my heart and so that then you left uh consulting in europe a few years ago it's a bit of long story i started with uh an investment banking then i went to consultancy company i end up in a listed company where we were able to list the company and took it to ipo that's where i made my first basket and then i feel i actually have the resources to start something i really love and that's when i

• Speaker #0

  start at one app yeah it's a an amazing transition from a consultancy and financial services to to wine that's right the daily life must be almost as busy but maybe a bit more exciting in some ways um so you you decide to create wine app you like do you go through um a first like In entrepreneurship, we often talk about minimum viable product, like for you must have been selling your first bottle or something like that. Or do you immediately start with a WeChat app?

• Speaker #1

  So it's an interesting journey. When we started in China, we launched the offline bar first. Originally, there wasn't an app or there wasn't a mini program. All I wanted was to have a nice place in Shanghai. to serve reasonably priced wines and a large portfolio. At times back in 2018, 2019, I often felt I got ripped off every time I go to restaurant. The fine wines are priced very high price. So I just want to have a little place to service my friends, my family, have a place for ourselves. We opened the restaurant. around the end before the end of 2019 and covid hit us from the 1st of january 2020 yeah so perfect timing for opening and you know since we got the name wine app we started launching the app with the philosophy and thinking behind we want to deliver wines to our wine lovers 24 7 anywhere you like within 30 minutes We want to have a huge selection. So we launched the app with 400 SKUs covering the entire Shanghai, delivering 400 SKUs within 45 minutes.

• Speaker #0

  And I'm not sure if people listening or watching this can realize the size of Shanghai. But it's actually like, I think it's 20 million inhabitants.

• Speaker #1

  So roughly about 25 million.

• Speaker #0

  So like it's almost half of France in one city. So So it's massive. And like delivering bottles of wine in 30 minutes is already a challenge. Yes,

• Speaker #1

  yes. I mean, we do have many, many warehouses as well as our restaurant serves as a warehouse. So we are able to do it. The infrastructure in China, particularly in Shanghai, are very well set up. And which is why I think give us not only the technology, but actually the ability to deliver throughout the day. Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  So the other part also is what was interesting when we had the first conversation is that China has been for a long time importing market of wine. I think it's still the case. I think China still consume more imported wine than locally made wine for now.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  What you explained to me is that this importation creates a structure with a lot of intermediaries.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  making the wine more and more expensive and potentially more and more rare as well because it's hard to find one person with a full selection. And you wanted to break that and to be the one intermediate between wineries in the wine world and the consumer.

• Speaker #1

  So what we really wanted to do, I mean, in the beginning, there was no such big story. It was purely me wanting to buy a bunch of... wine and share it with my friends. But the concept from seller to customer, it's a concept that we slowly developed. We have a lot of relationship in France, in Italy. We were able to buy directly from wineries and distribute them in China. But at the same time, a lot of wineries do have agencies and so distribution signed up. So we have to work with distributors. with no other choice. Throughout the time, we now discovered there's a trend of Chinese wine. So we very quickly set up the ecosystem around that, bring everyone into the same platform, serving sing.

• Speaker #0

  customers with the new trend yeah so let's get into the this new trend of uh of chinese wines uh for us it's very new because it's been uh one week that we've had our first taste of uh of chinese wines finally um how did you first how did you notice this trend and how would you describe the uh the recent evolution of chinese wines wow very big question um you know as a child

• Speaker #1

  who was born in China, I still remember the first sip of wine I had was mixed with Coca-Cola. That is my genuine memory of wine from my young age to today where people know much more than me, I feel, the customers in China about the wine. So that's kind of the revolution. I came back in 2000. to China from London after living for almost 20 years. I felt that was really the beginning. I went to Ningxia. I went to Yunnan. I saw some phenomenal and very professionally done wineries and the farmers, winemakers. It kind of sparked the interest in me to try and to explore more. Very slowly, I... discovered there are actually a lot more than what I read from outside of China because I lived in the London I never hear China actually makes wine or good wine but after set my foot in there I discovered many many interesting things and I often believe you know local farmers makes a huge difference and In the very beginning, the very beginning stage and in the early development of Chinese wineries, they are trying to copy Bordeaux, they are trying to copy Burgundy, because they felt if someone makes a comment, this tastes like Bordeaux wine, it actually means a good thing. That means my standard is up there. Until today, farmers, winemakers are very confident saying, can you taste? Shandong flavor in there because this represents where we are trying to make in Shandong region, in Penlai region. I think that is the huge trend and observation I've discovered that people are confident enough to set standard themselves within their knowledge and represent truly what they make.

• Speaker #0

  It's funny that you say that because we had this tasting in Shanghai that you did last week.

• Speaker #1

  Yes.

• Speaker #0

  And actually, after this tasting, Marine and I, we took a few moments to, you know, like at school, like write what we want to remember from it. Like what were our observations? And one of the observations that we wrote is that we see kind of a shift. Or a difference between some estates where you have some that still have Bordeaux blend. And this is how they describe their wine. Like, this is a Bordeaux blend. So, you know, you have an external reference to it.

• Speaker #1

  Yes.

• Speaker #0

  And you see others and probably more and more that are more like, yeah, we used to do this. But now we've changed and we use actually this grape variety and this grape variety because it's better for where we are and the style of wines that we want.

• Speaker #1

  That's right, yeah.

• Speaker #0

  And so you really see like what we wrote and what we discussed was the quest for authenticity in the wine. And so I 100% agree with you on, I think it's something that is coming. It's the revelation of the place as a winemaking place and not as making like other regions.

• Speaker #1

  Absolutely. I mean, I even come across. There are wineries beginning to experiment wines with barrels that are made from China. So barrels coming from Changbai Shan, which is the northern part of China, almost has a very Zen flavor, really, truly representation of China. And they are playing around these things.

• Speaker #0

  It's amazing. It's fun because it's also something we were discussing one day. I was like, you know... Maybe we should start a barrel company in China because I think we have things to do in barrels. Like you guys must have a beautiful forest and woods very designed for it. So maybe WineApp can do barrel.

• Speaker #1

  Maybe, maybe one day, you know.

• Speaker #0

  So you've been in London, you've traveled in Europe as well in your discoveries of wine. what are the main differences between... wines in China, like in the, you know, more in the estate and in the making, in the way of doing versus what you've seen in the Western world?

• Speaker #1

  As a Chinese, I think it's fair for me to make a comment that Chinese are very learned. They are eager to learn. They want to learn the best thing, get the best technology. And that's probably what you see in 80% of the wineries. The machinery you see in Ruanwei Kao, the barrel they use, they actually pick best of the best to begin with. So the foundation is really high. And in terms of grapes, varieties, and from the beginning, they just want to make Bordeaux blend. So typically plantation of cab and malot. But slowly they discovered, as you mentioned, some of the grape variety performing much better locally. For example, Mazelan. in Ningxia, it is the China grape. No grape performs better than Mazilan in Ningxia. So slowly you see a trend of what I would say copying the leading countries of winemaking to absorbing the knowledge and beginning to create something truly that represents ourselves. I think that's the difference we are seeing. Secondly, I think The entire wine industry in China is relatively young compared to Europe.

• Speaker #0

  Absolutely, yeah.

• Speaker #1

  You probably don't see a bottle that's from 1990s, or you never see a bottle from 1980s, for instance. So we haven't seen the potentials from aging in China yet. And I think that's probably going to be the most interesting thing going forward. We see some of the best wine. I mean, Long Dai. It's released the 2016-17 as the first vintage. Until today, it's not even 10 years. But if you go to Bordeaux, you can pick so many wineries that have 20 years vintage, 30 years vintage. So I think we are yet to see the potentials of aging. And that's something I'm really looking forward to see it and taste it. Yeah,

• Speaker #0

  exactly the same for me. I'm super curious of what will happen in the next 10 years. What impresses me as well in differences is the hospitality infrastructure. What we thought is actually in Europe, we tended to first have vineyards. And then we're like, OK, maybe people want to come. And, you know, after a few centuries, we realized that maybe it's nice to have a few rooms to welcome people. And you still need to find them. And like the level of infrastructure is very viable. estate to estate whereas in china all what we've seen like in your event you know they are the postal cards yes of each estate and every time i was looking at it i was like no way this is that big or this existed because the infrastructure are just massive

• Speaker #1

  that's right i i think people are people in this wine industry at least in china are true lovers of wine no one is here to make money That's definitely not their first intention. It's because the passion of making wine, the passion of making something represents China, and the true love of wine. I think only that can make such investment like here. It's not rational investment from investment banking perspective, but they are making an investment for 20 years, 30 years. for their next generations. I think that's the difference.

• Speaker #0

  You know, we have a joke about that. Do you know how to be rich in wine? You first need to be very rich. That's true, yeah. Basically, you're losing money most of the time. Yeah. Maybe let's end on the things I wrote during the tasting. Let me check. Yeah, there was one thing I wanted to talk with you about, and it would be a good transition for the next question I have after that, is that during this tasting, we've seen... a lot of different things in the same estate. And I think actually Runaway Cow is a good example because one estate can do Cabernet Sauvignon, very straight, very classic thing. Then they can have a few others that are a bit different, sometimes more classic, sometimes more natural, but different wines and a lot. And then they will do some just... funky stuff like a cider or a pet nut or whatever. Yes, that's right. And it's always in the same estate, they have just plenty of offers. And for me, it's a big difference because usually in France, we say, no, no, I'm a first high growth from Bordeaux. No way I'm doing a cider.

• Speaker #1

  So I'll give you a little insight. I think that it's because the reason of the wineries are pretty young. They actually then know what's best to grow. in that particular land yet. For instance, Long Dai is making a lot of experiments. Every year they're expanding. But until you plant something, you do not know what's best for that piece of land. So I think when you go tomorrow, you actually try a rosé from Long Dai and that you never experienced, but it's an experiment piece of land. They have the grade, they want to make something different, they can do it. But I think this will change over time, including RON and WACO. They'll slowly narrow down exactly. They know which piece of land is best for which grade varieties. And that's when the real consistency and production starts.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, absolutely. When you have 10 or even 20 years, it's nuts. enough to narrow you first need to try a few things it's a perfect transition with the next question I planned which is something very interesting that you told me when we met was that actually your past as a consultant sometimes comes back in what you do and you take all the data that you have about consumer preferences and then you are able to design wine experience or basically just wine that are especially tailored for these consumers.

• Speaker #1

  Yes. So there's the taste-related AI behind it, and there's also algorithm-driven AI behind it. We do track from every customer of ours from the first day they purchase to the order from yesterday. So we can very quickly analyze what the customer has had. since they join WANYI, whether they order online or they eat at my restaurant or what they have ordered in my hotel resort at night. So we know very clearly what they prefer, what they like, which great varieties. And then we do understand the customer profile in terms of how much money do they spend on. And we use AI to drive up the ticket sales and bottle sales even further.

• Speaker #0

  In the wine that you designed, I think you showed me a bottle of...

• Speaker #1

  We did three private labels. So I'm not going to name the name of which winery, but we actually shortened the time in the barrel because we feel sometimes the wines can be overwhelming if there really is too much time in the barrel. Our customers are younger generation. They like more fresh. So we... We made a change and the result was phenomenal. It was actually shown to be more tailored for what we need. I'm not saying this is the best wine, but this is the wine we can sell and this is the wine what my customers love.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, and it's probably a good wine for casual dinner with friends. Yeah, exactly. Like the one that you would consume the most, actually. Usually, we separate wine in two categories. you know there is a wine from demand and wine from offer yeah and so wine from demand is basically a like you are a very well-known estate in burgundy and whatever you do you will sell because you know it's very specific prestigious whatever you will sell at high price and then there is wine from offer which is actually the hardest to do because it must be not too expensive like must be in a clear bracket of price. And it tends to decrease in sales. That's right. Because people tend to consume less wine, younger generation.

• Speaker #1

  they say younger generation consume less wines and stuff yeah and you basically kind of solve this because uh all this excess production in one of offer could be solved with your uh tech yes yes i know um we can solve a lot of things uh we can solve what you know uh uh sort out what people like in different parts of shanghai for instance to the accuracy of we find people in pudong um drinks more white than the people in Cuxi. Interesting stats. Whether that's useful for distribution, I don't know. But it's definitely all the data that we tracked can be used for some sort of commercial use.

• Speaker #0

  Even for your logistics, it can make it easier. Let's talk about the resort that you're opening. Because it's a massive project. You showed us some pictures.

• Speaker #1

  amazing yeah um yeah uh how where do i begin it was it was well it wasn't planned planned i never wanted a hotel i never wanted to build a hotel but things happened at the right time and we felt i felt and the team felt it was the right decision and probably the right time to try something new So we want to, first of all, create a hotel resort for true wine lovers. What does that mean? We have wine sellers that can store up to 200,000 bottles. Secondly, what do we want to stock? What's our inventory looks like? Since Chinese wine is such a trend, we made the entire hotel as a Chinese wine offering hotel. In the hotel, you'll see over 400 SKUs of Chinese wines, Chinese labels representing different tehua. So that's something we also managed to do. And thirdly, I think often where I drink it, the occasion I drink it makes the difference in terms of how I enjoy the wine. And so we have this amazing place in Ermei Mountain. uh 1000 above sea level hidden in the mountain uh every room comes with an onsen with a spa um having a glass wine is a dream so you know we we begin to design around the concept of that and now the hotel is built and it's about running for uh almost two months oh it's already open running yeah okay and and uh it's i think thank god it's uh so far almost 100 occupancy rate until end of the year.

• Speaker #0

  um yeah we have to visit yeah i was gonna say i will put a link in the description if you guys want to come but uh yeah prepare yourself because uh apparently the occupancy rate is super high so uh try to come if you try to go there if you're in china and so you recently had the opportunity to start your wine production well maybe not start but like yes see the start of the wine production Yeah,

• Speaker #1

  so... The decision was made about a month ago. The company was formed this week. So really fresh. The team was assembled just over last week. Yeah, so we know where we are going to. We know which land we want. We know what grapes we are buying in the first few years and what we are planting. And we've got an amazing winemaker and a bunch of people who love wine from different backgrounds. There are people who are from the hotel industry, from the F&B industry, from the traditional wine industry, from entertainment industry as a movie director all joining my team to make this happen. So this will be exciting.

• Speaker #0

  When will we start shipping? You still have time because...

• Speaker #1

  Next month.

• Speaker #0

  Okay. And you will do wine this year or you will wait?

• Speaker #1

  We will start making wine this year. Okay.

• Speaker #0

  wines will not be in the market until probably end of next year earliest okay yeah okay super exciting uh project i mean plus in the in the united it must be beautiful absolutely beautiful yeah um how do you manage uh this time because you're you're super spread between shanghai i don't manage my time the time manages me yeah it's a good one it's a good one um how do you see chinese wines outside of china um So we actually represent a lot of wineries in China in terms of distribution in the overseas market. We have a small operation in Singapore and we do supply wines to Southeast Asia, Hong Kong, started in London as well and Europe. To be very honestly speaking, I think the Western world are giving China a good chance to start. They are very receptive. there are also very eager to see what can you make out of it so the trend has been quite positive in terms of people buying so our orders are very positive people are actually giving chinese wine a try over the time i think we'll see a real trend if this stabilize because often you know they maybe they buy 10 bottles of wine they'll find that one or two that they like so I'm also interested and curious to see what's going to happen after a year or two. Definitely now, I mean, there's a big push from the government and different associations pushing wines from China to the world. But whether the trend will continue, let's wait and see.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, and I mean, coming from an external market, I think that you can, like in France, I think I never bought, almost never bought. italian wines you know and it's like super close and i bought some of them when it was very great bottles and things i really loved or maybe at the restaurant sometimes because exactly you know italian restaurant whatever but for daily wines or like not too expensive wine things that you would buy like that i think you just buy from your home market that's right that's right for for overseas markets it must be i guess the most prestigious bottle and even for you it makes no sense to invest too much yeah exactly just to sell like

• Speaker #0

  I think one difference I'll point out is Chinese do have a lot of populations and people around the world. For example, just the London market, we have over 2,000 Chinese restaurants. And distribution to that is pretty easy to have a Chinese wine representation on the menu. So I think that's the slight difference we see in different markets. The first buyers are actually the Chinese in that market, followed by the foreigners. so yeah I think there's slight difference compared to, for example, France. You see way less French people in China compared to the amount of Chinese in France. So I think that contributes a sales difference.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, it's very true. And it's true for beers, for example. I always see a pack of Tsingtao or whatever in France. And I used to drink them when I go to Chinese restaurants as well. So yeah, that's true that the diaspora is actually an interesting market. Do you think they are trying? Do you think they are coming as well? Have you seen Western people starting to come in China to taste and to discover? Not yet?

• Speaker #0

  Yes, definitely. So, for instance, we sponsor a key event with the British consulate. every year, which is the king's celebration, or used to be the king's celebration. So every year they have a big celebration for the king's birthday. And this year we bought the early sponsor for wine as well. And they were very specific to have Chinese wine as a foreign embassy. And I think, you know, everyone wants to try what China can offer in terms of alcohol, in terms of winery. and I think

• Speaker #1

  they are very willing yeah yeah it's a it's a fun story actually i never heard about the birthday of the king before oh yeah to hong kong but in hong kong it's also something that is important because yeah it's a it was previously the british so they still have some legacies and that's right from it um do you or so in the in the data that you have you told me that you see difference in neighborhoods for example in terms of consumption What are the trends? Do you see also generational trends in China? Like, for example, in Europe, we tend to say that younger people drink less wine and they prefer rosé and white, whereas the older will buy expensive things.

• Speaker #0

  I'll give you something really interesting, which is the key data from my platform. 66% of our users are female.

• Speaker #1

  No way.

• Speaker #0

  So that's probably different from the West. wine consumption 80% of them are between the age from 25 to 40. So younger generation. Yeah. I think, you know, that's not hard to guess, but that's obviously a lot of trends.

• Speaker #1

  The demographics, so this stat is in France. I don't know if it's in Europe, but it's actually female are the most important buyers of wine in total. um because most of the wine is bought at the supermarket so it's a little bit sexist what i'm saying but it's basically the stats it's more women women tend to go to the supermarket more than men so yeah so they buy more wine yeah but actually if you look at the price of bottle if you go above like 30 euros per bottle then i think it's 80 or even 90 percent of the buyers are men okay and that's interesting that's crazy because uh uh, It means that the daily wine is just bought by females. And then when it comes to expensive things, it's men. So you see this cliche that is still living.

• Speaker #0

  I'll give you another interesting. The men are more loyal as well. So in my data, it shows men tend to stick to what they buy. So all my male users, they are very focused on the SKU selection. Rarely you see some users switch to buy new things. Whereas the female users, they buy different bottles every week. They, you know, today they like this one, tomorrow they'd like another one. So also interesting point to see.

• Speaker #1

  But I don't know if it's the case for you, but like when I see one t-shirt that I like, I try it. And then that's it. I have the five same. So, you know, it's a bit.

• Speaker #0

  That's right. Yeah.

• Speaker #1

  Um. Okay, that's very interesting insights. And so for now, you're operating in Shanghai, Shenzhen,

• Speaker #0

  and Chengdu.

• Speaker #1

  And do you plan to grow the operations?

• Speaker #0

  Yes, absolutely. I think COVID definitely has kind of slowed us down, but now we are ready to expand again. We have two more restaurants coming up, one in Shanghai, one in Suzhou, a new city that we've never tried. And we also have plans around online expansion as well.

• Speaker #1

  Okay. It's fun because you say that COVID slowed yours, but it's been, what, like five years that you're operating? Five, six years? Yeah. How many? Ten restaurants?

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, yeah. So we have, well, including the new one, we have ten. And we have resort and we have online. We do D2B and other things.

• Speaker #1

  So the pace is different. One thing I noticed during your tasting was the presence of sweet wines, a lot of it. Is it something you see on WineUp as well and on the trend? Or it's more like a kink of some estate and they do this on the side and happy to taste them?

• Speaker #0

  Actually, it's probably one-off trend. I think the Chinese still likes the red the most, followed by the white. It's extremely difficult to sell. uh champagne uh okay uh sweet wine is here or there maybe localize the market do you have some uh favors but uh the overall trend that chinese still prefer the red and why uh why champagne is hard to sell i have no idea i'm also figuring out uh it's the toughest category we're trying to push out if you look at China as a whole, there's hundreds of wineries, but you probably hear less than three, oh, probably hear less than five wineries that does sparkling or dedicated to do sparkling. And that's probably a reflection of the market. If anything bubble, they'll prefer beer. They find no reason why I need to drink wine with bubbles when I can just drink wine. I think it kind of... whether this will change i don't know but i think it stick to chinese they feel wine is without bubble yeah yeah and maybe also the the customs are a bit different because uh in europe we tend to drink champagne for celebration yeah maybe

• Speaker #1

  here you drink something else for celebration that's a bit more rooted in you know the culture and then yeah oh they have baichu which is 53 degrees. which is a bit a bit stronger do you sell some? no we don't just a wine ad for wine wine for great Is there anything you want to talk about that we didn't talk about? No,

• Speaker #0

  I think we pretty much covered all. I think, yes, it's going to be exciting times to come in the next 10 years for Chinese wine, both from kind of making perspective as well as drinking perspective. Yeah,

• Speaker #1

  absolutely. Will you come to Europe?

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, I do visit Europe often, three different wineries, planning a trip probably before end of the year as well.

• Speaker #1

  And will you try to do, I mean, you're already selling wines actually there. Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  So we do have relationship in France, in Italy, and yeah, all over Europe. Okay. Yeah.

• Speaker #1

  So if you're looking for Chinese wine in Europe, probably contact David. He will definitely make sure you are delivered or even elsewhere. Great. Thank you very much for all this, David. It was amazing. Amazing discussion. I hope that you liked it. Yeah, it's fun. As well.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah.

• Speaker #1

  Good talking to you. I have three last questions that are traditional. The first one is, do you have a book recommendation for me?

• Speaker #0

  A book? Interesting. I'm not trying to sell, but we publish once a year a Chinese catalog, Chinese wine catalog, maybe not a book. But if you are a newbie who doesn't know about Chinese wine, this year is the first year we publish with both Chinese and English. It has probably 80 wineries in there with all the top SKUs that we have tasted, selected. And with the tasting notes, I think I've given you well. Yeah. So it's a great reference point for wine lovers, especially wine lovers for China. Yeah.

• Speaker #1

  It's a very, very good wine book. And like for us, it's actually on the bedside table of Marin because we are studying a bit. But it's good because it's splitted in regions. Yes. So it's amazing if you want to start to get to know how wine is made in China. It's very interesting. And also you told us that you made an amazing selection of wines. So it's already narrowed down to the wines that are really high quality level. That's right. You can go for it. Actually, I have a few exemplaries at home thanks to you. So we'll make a competition, a small post on Instagram or whatever, and we will send you one at home. I have to note this I have to remember this before publication but if you're watching that we'll put a link to our Instagram post and you will be able to win one book what is a recent tasting that you love recent

• Speaker #0

  tasting well the most recent was the event last week I tasted about 200 different bottles in a single day. I probably can't remember 90% of them. But I thought overall, China are making great progress on the white. I think the white performs much stronger and probably it doesn't need much aging. I think the red still needs time to tell. Some great quality, but I want to see how... even better kick they can become after 10 years so that's you know um last week yes and it's a interesting link for another question sorry but it's so it's been what three years that you're organizing the event yes third year so so have you seen like

• Speaker #1

  have you seen important differences between those three years in terms of attendance in terms of attendance um the first year we had was small

• Speaker #0

  local lovers, local professions, people from the trade. The second year, there was a huge jump from first year to second year. First year was holding BFC, one of our stores. We had about 20 wineries. And, you know, you see people are interested, but there wasn't a huge crowd, probably just 200, 300 people. The second year, it gave us a shock. We had more than 700, 800 people. at one time and we were like oh wow interest does increase over time and we sense and felt there was definitely a more international feeling whether from buyers influencers or governments until this year it was a total phenomenal event where i didn't even expect so many people i think people from across industries and professions from all over the world and i see a huge increase and and and this trend probably will continue i feel uh um and uh this is only the third year so i'm dying to see what happens next one yeah um actually when we um uh

• Speaker #1

  when we looked at the event so um um friend sent his send it to us and and he said it is the like if you have to Welcome to Discover Chinese Wines. Z events that you need to go to. It's once a year, but if you go there, you will have a beautiful perspective on China's wind. And actually it's pretty true because, so it's big, thanks to this event, we're here today. And the Marines we chat is, is full of contact and conversation across China. So that's great. Last question. Who is the next person I should interview?

• Speaker #0

  You should interview one of my great friends, big bro, Sebastian Basco. He is, the movie director behind Waking the Sleeping Great. Probably the most knowledgeable person as a foreigner in China. He spent a few years, I can't remember, two or three years, filming over a hundred wineries in China, experiencing many seasons of harvesting and came up with the movie.

• Speaker #1

  and he's probably the person you should interview we'll uh we'll also try to put the link of the movie uh in the description if you want to rent it or buy it uh i haven't watched the movie yet but i absolutely have to to do it if you're flying to hong kong on kase pacific uh

• Speaker #0

  it's on the uh uh entertainment show as the top in the chart it's good to know we don't play kate this time but

• Speaker #1

  Maybe for the next one, we'll make sure to take Cathay just for that.

• Speaker #0

  You see a lot of me in there.

• Speaker #1

  Thank you very much for this, David. Thank you for doing the, in French, I would say, the pass for us so that we are able to come here. It was an amazing discussion. I wish you a lot of success with YNAB. Thank you. you don't need my wishes because it's already uh no no i i need it all the time but yeah it's uh always good luck so so it's uh it's better and uh yeah if you guys want to discover uh chinese wines and everything go to wine app david thanks again thank you thank you