- Speaker #0
All right. Hi, Lionel.
- Speaker #1
Hi. Hi. Welcome to Shanghai, Marine and Antoine.
- Speaker #0
Thank you very much. So it's a pleasure to come to see you. Actually, so we've been put in a relationship by Olivier. Yes.
- Speaker #1
Thank you for the introduction. And I am very excited to have you face to face in Shanghai, finally, after so many discussions online. Yeah,
- Speaker #0
he did an amazing job, Olivier. He opened so many doors for me. me in relationship and then we had a few calls together you were super helpful for us to come to china yeah the china wine landscape is a bit of my playground that's true so so the story behind this is that uh two days ago so saturday there was a big tasting uh here in in shanghai of chinese wines yes and so you told us uh marine antoine it's it's the place to be exactly if there is one day for you to be in Shanghai. This day. So we're like... okay, let's go, let's come to Shanghai.
- Speaker #1
And you did it.
- Speaker #0
So it was amazing. We have plenty of things to share with you guys. But today we have a discussion together. Yes. You have plenty of things to say because it's been more than 20 years that you're in China. Absolutely. But first, I will let you introduce yourself.
- Speaker #1
Yes, all right. So introduction, I mean, I think introduce yourself is always not that easy. I've been reading recently about how to introduce yourself without.
- Speaker #0
a social marker without your aid without your name so i will try to do that today that's a very good challenge because i would say yeah i'm nine so yeah so i think that this is what we do as it's not a job interview obviously but um so
- Speaker #1
what def how do i define myself what defines me right um the key the key thing is about energy is about willingness is about achieving goals and sharing resources. And added value. I'm obsessed with added value. This is my motto. And this has been all around my career and my relationship as well in more personal life. So that's a few things. And we talk about resilience. It's a big word, which I don't really like. I would say more stubborn. So I'm between resilient and stubborn. And stubborn is a very key point of my... personality because I'm from Brittany. So Britain have a stone head as we say. But in a better sense we are dedicated and we want to move forward. And the Britain are also traveling around the world. So this is really we always say citizen of the world. This is more a bit old image. But I would say work and travel. That's been also what defines me. So back to the more conventional introduction. My name is Lionel or Lionel. My wife hates me to introduce myself Lionel. She said Lionel is much, much better. So I was born and raised in France. That's also a very key point of who I am. I'm extremely proud of my country. Even I've been living abroad for 25 years. And living abroad always helps you to revisit and reconnect with your own roots. So again, I was saying I'm a Bratton from my father's side and from my mother. She's from Perigord. All right. So when you put all those two things, I have a very strong background in fine food. Maybe fine is not the best way to say, but good stuff. Oysters and foie gras. Right. So I think this helped me to develop my taste as well. All right. So that's the key things I would share. I'm married. I have a young boy who is going to be nine years old. So my wife is Chinese. So we have a mixed couple. She's been in Germany for 10 years. So as I said, I have a lot of interest in multicultural environment. Okay. Beyond my day-to-day job. So I think this is quite important to mention. And a proud holder of a Master in International Trade in Wine, where I studied in Montpellier. So I was born in Paris, by the way, I mentioned about, I forgot about that. So I'm very proud Parisian as well. So yeah, it's a lot of, it's a lot of mixed culture. And all those, those time to study and to meet new things always push me to travel around the world and to start my career abroad. So that's, in a nutshell, a few things about my temper and my motivation to... wake up every day and move in this wine environment here in China. How did I arrive to China? Because this is always a big question. And my answer is always, I took a train. I took, no, a train, sorry. I took an airplane, right? So this is kind of a joke, but it's half joke. And why did I go to China? Because, I mean, my first trip was in late 2001. So, yeah, it's quite a while back. My key motivation to go to China when you are a young student, graduate student, is either you go to Asia or you go to Americas. I thought the challenge to go Americas was a bit too easy because of the language, so I said, okay, let's go a bit harder. So that was the key motivation. Number two was about martial arts, which actually I was not much practicing. I was doing judo in France, but at that time it's somewhere in Asia. So you don't really have a clear idea about the map, what is Japanese, what is Chinese. It's the martial arts, right? And the Zayn attitude, all right? When you think about Asia, you always think about quiet, about peaceful, about the master and the teacher. And the students, sorry. And when I arrived to Shanghai, bustling Shanghai, it was not quiet. Trust me, it was nothing, nowhere quiet. But it was boiling. It was boiling. And it was exciting. It was full of energy. I always use this word, do you smell possibilities every morning when you start your day? So this was Shanghai 25 years ago.
- Speaker #0
Before. discussing how you landed in China. How did you land in the wine industry? What happened for you to be here? Yeah. Because, like, you're from Brittany. Exactly. Actually, I'm from the north of France. So, you know, we share something, is that there is no vineyards in our country. There were.
- Speaker #1
There were, and now they are rehabilitating them. But it's, yeah, it's not a wine culture area. But we have so many other good things anyway. Ciders is among them. But anyway. Back to your question, exactly that point, going to China for me at this part of my life was, I don't really know what I'm going to do with my life. Let's get out of the comfort zone and let's try to get to choose what will be my field. So I am a student at the Montpellier Business School. so I I I'm at second year and this is the time I need to choose my specialization. And I arrive, I know I want to go to China. That's sure. I organize a Chinese teacher to come to our school because it's all about quota. At that time, we need to have four students minimum to go to the Chinese program. It's the second year of the Chinese program and nobody wants to go to China. Ten years after, it's full. full airplanes of students but at that time is very different and i motivated 13 students so we are over quota very excited about that to spend one year in china and to find uh to find a job because at that time i need to get chinese rmb to pay my rent and i end up in car for in gubei store the biggest of asia at that time so here is no the retail is exploding there is no online there is no um, mobile phone. They are mobile phones, but they are not smartphones. Sorry, I was looking for that word. So no smartphone yet. And I represent a wine importer who is having a corner and promoting French wine. So this is my first touch with wine. Full stop. My father is not much, has a very small cellar at home, but he's... is not such a wine connoisseur because in China, we always say you are French. Everybody says, oh, you know everything about wine. But no, I learned everything. And then I go back to school, finish my master international trade in wine and come back and start my career in a wine distributor here in Shanghai. So
- Speaker #0
2002. So you went to China before coming back for good?
- Speaker #1
Yes, exactly. Yeah. So I actually, my master's internship, tip. It's the sixth month of my probation contract. This is how I cut the corner to get my first salary. So back in Shanghai, first Shanghai student, international student, learning Mandarin, going to Carrefour every afternoon and promoting French wine. And very confident, say, OK, I know a lot about wine, but I didn't. But there is a sommelier in this company and I have saw him with questions. So this is really... And the three first wine I've tasted in my life is Lynch Bache, which vintage would be in 96, Pichon Longeville, 98. And what is the third one? But that's, yeah, I always forget the third one. But this is, this guy is doing a tasting for VIP clients in Beijing. He's coming back with three bottles and we taste those wines. And this is the magic moment of my career. This is really the turning point, like, okay, this is what I want to do. tasting those amazing wines amazing so so there is a worse tasting than uh yeah when you when you don't i mean of course many years after i i and you can you imagine the guy was traveling by airplane the bottle were half open so yeah i would say the condition was not optimum but still those those were really triggering me into the industry. And this is where I am 25 years after, still in China. I mean, I stopped over. I left China, moved to Greece. I was export director for a Greek winery in north of Greece, where I was king, by the way. Interesting story, but not for today. From Greece, I moved to Vietnam. I was doing a distribution of food and wine in Vietnam. So I was in Greece for Olympic Games 2004. uh also very that was a cool place to be and the best sommelier of the world competition with enrico bernardo jürgen fendt and and and uh gerard basset all so many iconic people in the wine world uh so so very lucky to to be in touch with those person i interviewed all of them at that time uh anyway another story for another time and then uh vietnam 2005 2007 and back in china in 2007. Got married in 2009. And the rest is history.
- Speaker #0
So when you come back, so the first time you come in China is 2001? Yes, correct. You come back 2009?
- Speaker #1
I first arrived on Valentine's Day. Okay.
- Speaker #0
It's good luck. Yeah. And so you come back in 2009?
- Speaker #1
2007.
- Speaker #0
2007, sorry. Did you already notice some change?
- Speaker #1
So yeah, actually I was very nervous after four years break. I left in 2003, more or less. and i come back in 07 i was very very worried uh how much i i missed right um it took me one month and i was like back in the fish tank so at that time not not much of the of the changes although they were starting to do all the construction work for the ex universal expo 2010 so uh yeah seven Yeah. So Shanghai was a giant construction work. They redid every single road in the old city. It was, I would not say it was fascinating because it was really dirty and very messy, but everything was ready at that time. So on time, very impressive on that point. So that's, so yeah, that's one thing I would, I would say.
- Speaker #0
And in the wine industry?
- Speaker #1
Yeah, yeah. I was anticipating your question on that. Less rock and roll. So let me explain that. Yeah, yeah. More structured, people trying to... Because, I mean, really, the first time I arrived in 2001, wines were not always very pleasant to drink, not always well stored. So, yeah, five years after that, I felt... People were a bit more serious about what they were doing. Temperature control. Yeah, we felt people were willing to learn and to get better. Understanding they were new to the business, still a lot of BS. Because, you know, you can really, both from the Western side and the Chinese side, you can just improvise yourself being a wine expert. Nobody's going to check your credential at that time. But this is how it was. And this is why I thought I was doing a bit of difference because of my background. I am French for sure, but I study about wines. So I had a very solid background and I felt I knew what I was talking about. I still do.
- Speaker #0
And so when you come back, you're working as an importer? Yeah,
- Speaker #1
I work with an importer. Very interesting combination. It's a joint venture of the Familia Torres from Spain and Baron Philippe of Rothschild and Rouen Family. Those three wineries and families get together to build a distribution company called Torres China, which has 40 or 50 wineries from all around the world. So I was doing a few jobs there. but our first one was to lead the sales team for shanghai on trade and then move on with the business development so bringing new new new projects and i was also liaison for um for three of the wineries torres uh zoning and all the french portfolio because as a french speaker it was it was it was here yeah so at that time it was uh tetangie family for the champagne, we had a Drouin for the burgundy, Rhone Valley with Chapoutier and Mouton Cadet, obviously, for Bordeaux. Yeah, so that was a very busy time, very exciting time. And then I moved to work for AAC Fine Wines, which is the leader of the wine distribution here in China. It's been built up by the St-Pierre family, sold to Suntory, and the St-Pierre family just bought it back two months ago. So it's very, very key news in the wine industry. Very exciting to see what's coming next from that point. I opened an office for Gruppo Italiano Vini, which also gave me the opportunity to be an expert in Italian wines as a French guy. So I did that for two years. And from 2013, I decided to focus on Chinese wines. That's another part of my entrepreneur career.
- Speaker #0
And we will definitely talk about that.
- Speaker #1
We will dig a bit on that. Because,
- Speaker #0
you know, it's an area of interest for us to understand Chinese wines and to go deeper into that. Absolutely. And so now you're an entrepreneur, you're a consultant. Yeah. How would you describe what you do?
- Speaker #1
Exactly. I am an entrepreneur by defect. Okay. So this is not because it's a very glamorous word or title. which I don't feel I earn. So I decided to do this business because I was getting more senior and I was not very easily employable. So I decided to do this project on my own. So yeah, I started in 2013. actually in a very different mindset to consult international wineries to set themselves in China. You know, very confidently, I was like, wow, this is easy. And six months after, there was no client signed and I was panicking. So I had to reshift my focus. All right. So back to your question, experts in Chinese wines. That's for sure how I could define myself, and I will define that clearly because expert is quite a big word. Entrepreneur by defect, but it's not a very cool tagline. Independent consultant. I think this is pretty who I am, right? Because I work on my own, right? So entrepreneur involves a team for me, right? And after more than 10 years on my own, that's not exactly. I mean, of course, I would look for raise some funds and interview people to join me. But it's very specific what I do. And so far, I've been maybe I've been a bit micromanagement as well. I will admit that. But I'm not. I don't compromise on two things. The quality of my work and the work and my deliverables, what I deliver to my clients. and the quality of my honesty towards me tasting chinese wines there and people also appreciate that for me uh because in this world we also in the wine world and in the chinese one world especially we need to be careful with the face when chinese we say mianzi of our clients which i still do but if i don't like a wine they will know and more importantly they will know why okay for me in everything i do The big question is why? Why not? Why? It's not about I like it or I don't like it. I like it. Yes, because. Right. So this is really much my and every tasting I'm eating is always the way I interact with my crowd. Because it's very difficult to express strawberry. I mean, nowadays we have more strawberries in China, but there were a time there were no strawberries in China. Some of the fruits are not available. So when you need to describe wine, you are a bit in corner. Of course, you learn there are some equivalent local fruits. So it's all a process to learn each other's culture. And what do we eat every day? Because Chinese food culture is immense. It's without borders. So this is what connects. i think our palate from the wine side it's a bit different but from the food side the palads it's every chinese on earth has an amazing palate because they are super precise about food taste
- Speaker #0
Yeah, and it's way larger than what we would think from Europe. Yeah,
- Speaker #1
because I mean, we speak about China always, but it's about all the provinces. Exactly. I think there are 36 provinces, if I'm not mistaken, somewhere like that. And each village has their own food, water. Baijiu, of course, is going together, beer. So yeah, from the drinking culture, wine is one of it. and i think it's it's good that we talk about that because in chinese uh we we specify which joe joe is the the technical word is not technical but it's the word for wine but it's not the same wine as we have in english okay putao joe is wine made of grape Baijiu is white wine. Mijiu is wine made from rice. Huangjiu is also another orange wine. So we have Zhou. So the world of Zhou is way larger than just Putao Zhou, which is grape juice, grape wine, right? So I always, every time I introduce myself, I'm Chinese Putao Zhou expert. So I'm expert in grape wine. So this is really narrowing down the topic.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, the conversation. Yeah. So it's been now more than 20 years that you're in China. What did you notice? So there are a few things I want to focus on today is Chinese wines. Okay. But for me.
- Speaker #1
Chinese grape wine. Yeah.
- Speaker #0
Chinese Puzha Zhou. But more importantly, wine in China. Okay. So it means the perception of like Western wine or the other wine in China. Uh-huh. The evolution of the consumer profile. Okay. What they want and stuff. And the evolution of. wine producers in China, wine production in China.
- Speaker #1
Wow, this is a very huge topic.
- Speaker #0
It's a bit like, you know, three topics I would like to cover through your experience. Sure. So the idea is how did you notice the things? Maybe we can start by the wine consumer, if you want. Okay. So what did you notice like in the habits of consumption? Sure. In the, you know, the expectations also of people concerning the wine. Okay. What did you notice in those 20 years in evolution?
- Speaker #1
Wow, that's a vast, very, very vast question. I always, because I, of course, as I said, my first idea of business model didn't work out, but I still consult here and there for wineries. I very select the clients I want to work with on that. But my first, my really first conversation with those clients who want to get into Chinese market, I always say, China is a tea. drinking market okay and this let's never forget about that because this is a reality this is a culture we drink tea for 5 000 years even more in china and we probably will drink tea for the next 5 000 years uh coming saying that coffee has made a tremendous foray in china so everything is possible all right so i'm not i'm not uh making any judgment on that it's just it's just a fact But I really want to emphasize that because it's all going with beverage. So, of course, I'm enlarging the spectrum here. We are only talking about Joe and I include also the other beverage, beer. It's OK. So tea number one, beer number two, number three will be by Joe. OK, so when I said that, I don't speak any red wine here. All right. Of course, things have changed. There is and there is a new market who has been built around red wine. because red is color of luck. And now we see white wine coming up back to the consumer habits. But let's keep in mind that this new category of grape wine is very new in the last 30 years. Okay. We were drinking red wine back in the days for a banquet, for a wedding. But this wine was... usually mediocre quality or poor quality, cheap, just for the ganbei. We always talk about this culture of ganbei. We drink in China as friends, as respect. In a small glass, you pour it and you bottom up. So you don't have much room for assessing the medium body or the fruit or the tannins. No, it's just bottoms up. All right, gan. dry bay uh dry make your your glass dry okay so it's like that So, of course, it works very well with Baijiu because it's a very high alcohol content type of wine. But compared to our culture to swirl the glass, to analyze the aromas, to dig deep, we are not there. It's a very different culture. And the Gambe, you present your glass and usually you... Put your glass a bit lower to show respect. Okay. To clinch. All right? So sometimes you go even a bit like that, right? And during the dinner time, you return the gambet. So you return the favor. And it happens, the back and forth happens a few times, and then probably you will get drunk at the end, right? Especially this baijiu. But this is the point. You... Drink with your people, either friends, either business acquaintances. So because they get drunk, we get drunk together. So we know the limits. Okay. You play golf and you drink by Joe from a business etiquette point of view. Okay.
- Speaker #0
It's a good program.
- Speaker #1
This is a bit old style. All right. But this is, I think it's still very relevant nowadays. All right. So just to wrap up about all this, I mean, I was just giving some input here. about a cultural background. And of course, I didn't touch down on the tea ceremony. You have the same format. It's a long table. It's all wood. And you clean the glasses. There is clean the cups, sorry, with tea. So the first batch of tea is not used. There is a lot of ceremonies around all that. All right. So how do you incorporate the Western wine culture? into all that. It's quite tricky. It takes time. And another very touchy point is food pairing. I heard so many Western wineries say, oh, my wine is the best with Chinese food. And I mean, I don't blame them. I mean, it's good because this is the way you want to get into the culture and it makes sense. But first of all, what is Chinese food? Okay, let's define Chinese food. And second of all, the process of food. uh of dinner it's all it's not a single portion so for the pairing it's a bit of a nightmare but but you can work it out basically all the all the plates come uh but you you start with seafood entrees meat rice you finish with soup and then sweet okay so there is a process but that means you need to pour glasses at with the structure of the Chinese meal. All right. So it's a bit, for so many, it's a bit trickier, but it works. It works. All right. But when I say, when I hear a Chinese, a Western winery say my wine is the best with Chinese food.
- Speaker #0
I'm a bit tired of that because we need to dig more and to be more specific. But again, this is our job as experts.
- Speaker #1
It's as if I was saying my wine is the best with French food. Obviously, French food encompasses a boeuf bourguignon. Exactly.
- Speaker #0
So people will kind of laugh about it. But again, I'm going to say it again. We drink tea for 5,000 years in China. And we're going to drink tea for the next 5,000 years. All right. Whatever happens. And it's good because of the world of tea is so amazing. And it, and it's also super exciting because what happens with tea, the tea world actually has so much overlap with the wine world. You have the way, the way you grow tea has also Grand Cru has also single vineyard. It's not, it's not vineyard. Obviously. I don't know what you say.
- Speaker #1
Tea art.
- Speaker #0
I don't know, but I'm creating some new words here, but, uh, tea plantation, right? That's the word, probably. I wouldn't, yeah, sorry for my English on that. But, so they have very specific, and you have longjing, you have green teas, you have all by colors, and probably you could do some tea pairing with food. I think it would be exciting too, right? And then we don't even talk about baijiu, because baijiu is eight different types of baijius. It was the baijiu day last August 8th. So there is one day dedicated to Baijiu. So a lot of cocktails with Baijiu. Now it's quite trendy. So also I'm covering a bit, the topic a bit larger than only wine. Back to your question here, Antoine. So yeah, this is fascinating. It's so much to play. I mean, being a mixed couple, we talk about food at home from the breakfast. table we start to talk about food what's how we're gonna eat for lunch and at lunch we ask what are we gonna eat for dinner right so it's the same for me yeah in my family uh in my mixed family with my wife my my mother-in-law and my son my son is is he was only nine years old but he's he's a sushi expert he's going to the sushi restaurant and he's ordering sushi by his on his own but not not this year it's already four or five years and I don't know, we have not much connection with Japanese food, right? So again, maybe it's for me, maybe it's for my wife, but we feel this delightment about tasting, trying, you know, and I like it and I don't like it. But if you don't like it, you taste it first, right? That's also the way I try to raise my son. uh which is spoiled i mean i never in my when was the first time i ate sushi in my life i was probably in my 20s right but anyway this is the world is moving different pace um so so this is where we are now in china people have access okay um do they like it do they don't don't they like it is always the question but what i can tell you about Chinese consumers is they are extremely curious will be will it become a consumer habit that's a different topic and that's and i think this is also where the western world takes things for granted my wine is the best with chinese food no that's not gonna work like that sorry sir sorry madam go come here understand don't just send your wine and come back every year chinese market requires a really high level of attention, right? I'm talking about the Wanneries and this and that. They always rely on the distributor and they say, okay, distributor is going to do the job for me. In China, that's not unlikely to work. All right. But again, this is another topic. So that's more or less, I think the amount of offer for the Chinese consumer the last 20 years was... Being 10 times, 10 time faults, easy. Because suddenly China became quite a center of attention and a lot of companies wanted to foray there. To the point that some people are already out. There's sort of big names from the wine industry already left China because they didn't understand. The Italian company I was working for, who is the biggest wine producer in Italy, 15 winery, 365 million euro turnover. Took five years to decide to go, stay five years and left after five years. Right. Because it's this culture point. Chinese consumers with always smiling, with always say, well, your product is the best. Will they drink it every day? Maybe not. All right. So this is really a key point. It's not because, as I said, Chinese consumers are very curious. And I don't really like to say Chinese consumer again. Let's keep in mind that it's very fragmented. Okay. But anyway, I mean, we need to give a bit of a go. Right. So spoiled. At the end, they are spoiled by choice. So if they taste this French wine today, tomorrow, probably Napa. the day after if they are interested into wine right it's the choice is quite amazing and which is also pushed me to focus myself on niche wines i do a lot of chinese wines but as i lived in greece for two years my level of knowledge for greek wines pretty pretty good as i said number one will be china in terms of of knowledge because i would touch down a bit more i really go in deep with Chinese Vineyard. Number two would be Greece, and number three would be Italy. France, it's my roots, but I never worked in France in the wine trade. Champagne still. Champagne is really my...
- Speaker #1
But this is another category.
- Speaker #0
In my French world, my chouchou, as we say that. I love, I'm totally a big, big fan of champagne. But again, it's another story for another time. So, yeah, so this is where I'm going around, touching all the niche wines. We did North Macedonia versus Greece. We did Romania. Yeah, I do like to, and those wines are available here. Two years ago, we did Lebanon versus Israel. That was a tough one. But, I mean. People are still very open-minded here, so the political impact was minimum. Next week, we are doing oyster from sparkling of the world. So this is going to be 15 different labels from 15 countries. So yeah, so this is the type of things I like to do beyond my Chinese focus.
- Speaker #1
So what you say about Chinese consumers is that basically they have plenty of choices in front of them. So first, the market is more fragmented than what... people think meaning that is duper over duper fragmented so that there are plenty of regions plenty of generation plenty of level of income so it's a bit of a bias to say yeah there are
- Speaker #0
1 billion Chinese people obviously they will buy my stuff and I will be rich and they absolutely will not drink one glass of wine per day okay let's cut that it's a nonsense alright because in a demographic way there is 800 million of people people who are working the ground, who are peasants. Okay. And those people probably will drink more Baijiu than anything else. That's for sure. Okay.
- Speaker #1
And maybe the market says the wine, like they are not in big cities.
- Speaker #0
Correct. Yeah. Unless, unless those, those are wine region in China, probably, but even, even, even the price level is still quite high. So yeah, this is a lot of choice, but back to my point in terms of demographics, uh chinese uh wine consumer regular consumer wine market will be uh 300 million on occasion like chinese new year and 30 million like super serious all right so let's not talk about the 1.4 billion let's just ignore that because it's not is not consensual it doesn't make sense um and then shanghai definitely wine capital uh south beijing is is in extremely rough time after covid when it comes to fmb and wine so beijing is kind of back to roots and it's it's north and in north we drink baijiu uh shenzhen is is quite is quite more on the natural wine market side uh probably influenced from hong kong and also because it's also very young demographics guangzhou and shenzhen are really like fighting They hate each other. Hate is a big word, but Guangzhou is the old money and Shenzhen will be new money, if I can just give a bit of a stereotype. Chengdu is a really amazing new wine market, really big positive trend. Shanghai is very, very saturated.
- Speaker #1
And so when you try to work... with a winery. So let's say I'm a winery in Europe or in the Western world. I want to discover a bit more about China. I try to come here. Actually, what you say is that you should focus on a few cities. and try to really understand them. And like, as you said, Shanghai, Chengdu, Guangzhou, Shenzhen. So this is the approach to app.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, I mean, there is always a lot of debate. Do you use a distributor or do you do the distribution on your own? That's the first question to ask. Second question, how often, what are the resources you want to allocate to that market, right? Are you able to come at least twice a year yourself, be with the sales team for up? Because, I mean, I understand the wineries, their job is not really much to do that, right? The winery is to make wine. So if there is another market which is easier to work with, so be it. Really, I mean, China is not a must. This is the question. I mean, are you equipped for all the paperwork, for all the logistics? You know, I mean, you can sell your wine faster to your neighbors, stay in Europe if you are in France. I mean, China is not for everyone, frankly. It's really bad again. But we are a bit off the topic, I think, because here is more about Western winery coming to China. And this is why I decided for me to shift myself and really focus on Chinese wines. Why? first of all because they are accessible. I was very bothered about the fact that I had to wait the wine to arrive. The logistic nightmare to bring those wines, import, the duty, custom clearance, all this is such painful, especially when it's late and you have your own trade client, you negotiate with them for a few weeks and the wine doesn't come on time and at the end they go to your competitor. So that's one of the key reasons, is one of the reasons, maybe not the key, but there's one of the reasons that I said, okay, I'm going to focus myself on Chinese wines because they are accessible, but they are not so easy to get. I've struggled a lot as well, but at least a bit easier. All right. And then also a bit of luck for me to go with the wine market or wine production market. And I think this is going to the next topic about the Chinese wine production. What has happened in the Chinese wine production? A miracle.
- Speaker #1
This was my next question. I know. Yeah,
- Speaker #0
yeah, yeah. So let's dive in, right? And I think this is even more interesting about consumers. What happened in China? It's amazing. China is not a place, as I was talking about tea for consumers. We don't make wine in China. China is not a country which... technically is able to produce wine or this is a big one in uh this is a big stone in some people won't like this okay and now why okay let's i'm coming here with i'm not just good say a big statement like that why because and this is very key point winter minus 30 degrees all the vines they die okay after minus 10 they feel not comfortable okay and There are only two regions in China where you don't need to bury vines. So you bury vines to protect them from the cold. Otherwise, they burn from cold. It's a bit of a paradox, but that is how it is. Minus 30 degrees, they don't survive if you don't protect them. So this makes China a very unique place on Earth with thousands of hectares of... Bending the trunk and covering. So vine burial. Okay. So this is the, and which is going with extreme winemaking. Okay. That's the few tagline I use for what is Chinese wines. And the second point is new latitude. It's not old world, it's not new world, it's new latitude. And this word has been used by John C. Robinson and some other experts. It was started in Bangkok in the wine. conference in Bangkok. So most of the wine from new latitude, we start with Thailand, Japan. So all those wines are new, obviously, but they are not new world and obviously not all world, right? So it's a new category. So I think it's a pretty good term, coins, right? But I'm back to this. You buried the vines one month after the harvest. So harvest is late August. early november for some places it's not always the same in china based on different region but let's say from november onwards you start to bury the vines and you unherf them uh april right so the time of um flowering so short right so and if you don't grasp that concept then you don't know why chinese wines are so expensive right and so there is a lack here of connectors about voices about explaining people always complain chinese one is expensive yeah because first of all we don't make wine in china for such a long time and again this is another wrong information. We are making wine in China for 11,000 years, which is one of the oldest places on earth. So yeah, there's a lot of paradox. I'm not saying there were wine for all that time, but there were some recent digging that we saw some wine press in Hebei, right? So yeah, Chinese wine environment is all very complex when you dig a little bit deeper. But let's back to this. vine burial, right? So you have flowering, as I said, everywhere you bury except Shandong. And Shandong, you have huge rain in July, which is the worst time for your flowering part, okay? So if we narrow down, we finish to Yunnan, which is a tropical place, very south of China, but they planted vines in 2,000 meters high, so high altitude. So they have four seasons there. So which probably by process of elimination will be the best place to grow vines in China. Again, there are a lot of people who will disagree with me. All right. I'm just talking from a very down-to-earth approach, making things easy. This is the vines. This is how it works. But in China, everything is possible. And this... And the winemaking is really a proof of that. How many? I think we're probably 450 to 600 winery. Difficult to get the numbers. Because the difference between wine grape to eat and grape to make wine, vitis vitifera, is not very clearly separate. So we have a lot of issue with statistics. But OIV, China has just joined OIV this year. So we expect to get some improvement on that point.
- Speaker #1
What was amazing, so Saturday we were at the tasting, you were there too as well. So it was one of the biggest wine tasting of Chinese wine. The biggest,
- Speaker #0
yeah.
- Speaker #1
So that was amazing for us to discover that. What was super interesting for me is that I tried to do some homework about Chinese wines to just, you know, to know the region and stuff. So I know about Yuna and Ningxia. and uh yantai okay uh shandong shandong not shandong not hubby but uh the one on the north east uh ching chong yep um so i i knew about these few regions but uh what was interesting for me is that there are actually plenty of other regions yeah between 9 and 11 some of them are very small yeah yeah yeah and and so um with all those different regions obviously you have very different minds, very different risks, very different... possibilities. You disagree with that?
- Speaker #0
It's mostly Cabernet Sauvignon everywhere. On that point, I'm just talking from a grape point of view. On the grape variety, it's quite safe on that, but, and this is also a very good point I wanted to jump on, is the actual generation of winemakers are totally getting free of the Bordeaux format. The first generation was very into Bordeaux. And it's nothing wrong with that. I'm not saying it's good or it's bad, right? But they were feeling safe to get the guideline of Bordeaux-style wine. And Cabernet Sauvignon is a grape that can grow easy and make good wine. The only problem is that China cannot make entry-range wine because of the reason of the cost. Wine production costs so high. that you can never really make a cheap wine for entry range. So the only way for China to shine to the world is to produce top-notch Cabernet Sauvignon. And this is what they did. Aoyun, Long Dai, Bao Zhong, many winery were pushing. Oh, I forgot also about Domaine Franco-Chinois, Tsongfa. So yeah, in each region, you have one stellar Cabernet Sauvignon. right is it good is it bad i'm not you know i'm not saying but but this is this is what we could observe um so They are still there. And then you have this new generation of winemakers who are no resources, full of new ideas. So they buy grapes. They do wine per project. They started this in 2017, right? So if we need to put key timeline on the wine, Chinese wine timeline, we start with 1892, which is Changyu, or will be the start of the modern Chinese. winemaking. Second will be 1997, so it's a big gap, right? This is the first family-owned vineyard with Grace Vineyard. And 2017 with this new generation, the new wave, I'll call that. All those very well-trained winemakers, they've been abroad and they come back, mostly Australia or France, a bit of Italy, but not so many. Also went to America, some of them. And they come back, they buy grapes, and they do their stuff. So, Petnat, we have a huge Petnat, orange wine. But saying that, all those wines are not necessarily natural. All right? I just want to rephrase that. Chinese winemaking is not very big on natural wine. You can do Petnat, which is traditional winemaking. Okay? So, I want to be very clear. Or even orange wine, right? because... The natural wine is mostly zero sulfur. Some of them are doing that, but very few. And you have one or two wineries who are biodynamic in China as well. So, I mean, I'm a bit off topic here, but just wanted to bring that to the discussion.
- Speaker #1
So, in Europe and in the Western world, in general view, we don't have actually Chinese wines. I think the first time I tested Chinese wines. official statement was two days ago but uh an official statement was in a an air china flight but but even though i mean in europe i never tasted chinese wines in europe okay how do you explain that uh
- Speaker #0
this doesn't go in that direction yet one thing would be the cost price as i said they are not able i mean in france we drink wine from two to five euro bottle right so this price point, say, every day.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, but I mean, like myself... I drink wine.
- Speaker #0
20 plus. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm saying from the everyday drinking, right? And bear in mind that, I mean, the French offer is huge, right? So for Chinese to get a strategy on that, it's tough. All right. So the price point.
- Speaker #1
Maybe the market is not that big also for them.
- Speaker #0
I mean, the production is huge. There's a lot of wine to be sold outside of China. Okay. From Chinese winery.
- Speaker #1
Even a small market is okay.
- Speaker #0
So this is one thing. The cost, production cost is high. which makes the export price very, to be competitive. Because, you know, I mean, you go to all those wine production countries, you are Italian, you drink Italian. You are Spanish, you drink Spanish. You are French, you drink French. You are British, you drink British too. Sparkling and so on, right? A bit more diverse from British probably. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But usually you drink what you have at home, right? So for you to taste something else, it has to be something like... Yeah. extraordinary 300 euro for a bottle of chinese wine are you ready for that i'm not sure yeah but so this is what i was talking about this top offer of cabernet sauvignon aoyun uh long die this is where that's their price point right uh you will probably open once one bottle just out of curiosity but this is not going to be your your your daily wines okay so this is the first is about positioning and about offer second is about license you need to have export license to export chinese wine abroad and those licenses are quite difficult to obtain all right so that's the chinese government from europe okay yeah and i'm not even talking about how difficult is it to bring chinese wine to a western country from the custom clearing that's so because i tried that i worked for a few projects and so far uh they all they all failed right So yeah, that's the three reasons why Chinese wines are not yet there, right? Because I would say Paris, London, and New York, it's a different story. You go to all the fine dining restaurants, you will find some Chinese wine on the list. Ritz-Carlton, Paris, all the wine clubs. London is quite famous for the wine clubs. So you go to 67 Pormor. uh they have a decent wine list of of chinese wines uh and as of uh This summer, New York has just recently a new batch of Chinese wine, prime producer arriving in there. So this is happening. Germany probably has also a lot because they do a lot of things with ProVine. France has a bit of in Bordeaux. I will find some Chinese wine at the, what is the museum? Cité du Vin. Cité du Vin. Yeah. So there is a Cité du Vin project in China as well. Yeah, opening in Beijing. I mean, it's been delayed with COVID, but hopefully we will see that. So all those will facilitate exchange around that topic. And I know a few Bordeaux restaurants. There is a fine dining Chinese restaurant in Bordeaux who is serving some top Chinese wines. Sommelier is an amazing lady, Gina. So yeah, there are a few.
- Speaker #1
If you dig a little bit,
- Speaker #0
you will find things. But it's not super obvious yet.
- Speaker #1
And do you see, have you seen in China in the evolution of the consumption, there is a trend like that in the consumer industry, luxury industry. The report says that Chinese people tend to refocus their consumption on local consumption. So it means that like big brands from LVMH or whatever are not the dream anymore. They prefer to buy like local things, local brands. very nice and very top quality. Do you see the same in the F&B and in wine in particular? Do you see that? Yeah, okay, fine.
- Speaker #0
A refocus on local.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, like Bordeaux Burgundy is fun, but actually we also have Chinese wines and we prefer to drink Chinese wines.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. This trend called Groschia, so a bit of nationalistic focus. No.
- Speaker #1
Okay, you don't see that in wine at all.
- Speaker #0
I'm very blunt on that. There is a quite big trend towards Burgundy, and China is no exception. Unfortunately or fortunately, I'm not going to say. There is a very big struggle to convince every day, in my everyday life, I have a lot of struggle to convince Chinese consumers to drink their own wine. Okay. That's a challenge for me. So I cannot say I witnessed the same trend. And I'd like to be a total devil's advocate with you on that. What I'm going to say is not my personal opinion, but I just want to react to just what you said about LV. They just built a new project here in Shanghai with a boat. I think you probably saw that, right?
- Speaker #1
Yeah,
- Speaker #0
I think we have to go to LV. So is it... really true that Chinese consumers are getting away from LV? I mean, I'm just talking LV, okay? It's just one single brand in a luxury environment, right? Because the boat is quite, our views is quite sustainable, but they have a villa next compound, which has been really built up really recently. So the amount of investment from LV, the last two to three years in China is quite sizable. Again, I don't believe this type of brand is just investing very heavily money, just knowing that the consumer are going out of LV. But again, it's maybe one single brand. Okay, I don't want to make it a general statement. Cartier has cut 40 shops the last... even more i think so you know i think it's it really depends on on the market right um and and it's i want to also react to that um i wish chinese people drink more chinese wine but let's get back forward 20 years ago the chinese wine quality was really i would be polite was really too mediocre, right? And something I didn't mention in our discussion about what happened in the production side, those big guys, the big names, when those new wineries arrived in 97, I say the Grey's Vineyard, but of course, it's a long list, right? Those newcomers, they challenged the big guys to push them to the quality. So this is really something I think was super healthy for the industry. So all those big guys, They do very good. They do way better wines now. Right. So this is one thing. After that, the consumers are always very, very shy and cold towards Chinese wines.
- Speaker #1
And maybe they still have the image of.
- Speaker #0
They were maltreated. You know, as I said at the beginning of our interview, they have, they know to taste. So. I think they were very maltreated with the quality of wine at that time. So this really left a very negative impact. I just want to share a story here. I did a tasting for a company, a corporate tasting, right? So we talk about CEOs. They invite their key clients. They are investment company. So, you know, we talk about high-level executive management, right? And they say, Let's taste what's the best of Chinese wine. What can China offer? So budget is unlimited. Quite, you know, very, very decent. 30 people come to this dinner. So I do the pairing. We do French food with Chinese wines. Okay. So we turn the side up a little bit. And over the, I mean, everybody like, wow. And I get some magnums. I get some. old vintage so i really you know i work hard for that right because you know it's my time to shine and over the night people get a bit more relaxed they drink a bit more and i heard i mean obviously they didn't i speak a bit of chinese since i'm here obviously so i don't know if it's in chinese or if it's in english or but whatever the language is one of the guests say because we we were by the end of the dinner, and my client started to be a bit nervous because there was not enough wine. So he asked his driver to come to his personal cellar to bring all vintage from Bordeaux, and cognac, obviously. And I'm like, okay. I mean, this is not the point. That's not the theme of the night.
- Speaker #1
But if it's late night, you can allow it.
- Speaker #0
I'm fine. I mean, it's the client, so I have nothing to say. But they start to uncork those 80s, late 80s, early 90s Bordeaux vintage. And one of the participants just enjoyed the glass and said, oh, this is, that's wine. And my face is really hurt, you know, because I worked so hard. But I think this kind of... little anecdote is really summarizing where we are at. Because I can bet I do a blind tasting and the people don't know what they're drinking. Exactly. They will not have the same reaction.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, exactly. Did they say that because of the brand or because of the taste? Yeah.
- Speaker #0
But, you know, those are smart people. They know how to taste. Right? Nevertheless, the weight... of branding or name is still super heavy in China. This is what I'm trying to share.
- Speaker #1
Because honestly, I think that a few wines that I tasted yesterday, I think I do them blind. I think that between like some Bordeaux blend, I mean, I tasted yesterday and some Bordeaux. Actually, I think Saturday, I think I said at the camera, you will look at the vlog that we are doing, but I said I've tasted Bordeaux wines that were... uh less good than than this bordeaux blender so so but in bordeaux you find everything so yeah of course but i mean i mean like blank how many how many one already we have in bordeaux 8 000.
- Speaker #0
right china the whole country is 650 guys so i mean you know and again the sweat to produce a good quality cabernet sauvignon grape compared to i have to be very careful with what i'm saying but compared to Bordeaux in terms of intensity, is way shorter in Bordeaux than in China. Because in China, 30 years ago, it was not existing. And they are very much able to challenge Bordeaux on the top level right now. And again, it's not being me biased. As I said in my job, I have to always make distance. And this is why I always like to do blind tasting mostly. Because this is the most humbling way to assess wine, right? I mean, and the most accurate, I believe, right?
- Speaker #1
Um, there is something that we talked a lot about, uh, together and, and I think it's very interesting, uh, also for people to have this is the, um, uh, level of, of investment, uh, in the, um, in the vineyards and especially in the hospitality part, uh, of the, of the estate. I told you what was shocking for me. I've still never visited the vineyard. So, so this is a bit the next. All right.
- Speaker #0
So maybe, yeah, you visit and then we revisit that. But anyway, I can... kind of react to what you just say um again i have to be careful where i'm going here so you speak about immotorism right yeah all right all right uh china and again it's a general statement so i'm sorry if i hurt somebody's proud uh pride uh when i'm saying that but china is nowhere already uh about inotourism on on the vineyard side all right why because And again, this is very my personal opinion here. It's two different jobs. And being an excellent winemaker or being an excellent host, it's two different mindsets, two different personalities. So there are absolutely top-notch winemakers in China. I will absolutely give you that. In tourism, it's a long way to go. The hardware is there, but software, that's...
- Speaker #1
It's fun because we often talk about Chinese hospitality. You know, like when you are in a hotel, they try to make you feel comfortable. It's not the case in...
- Speaker #0
Not yet, not yet. Yeah,
- Speaker #1
not yet.
- Speaker #0
It's going to come, but it's a long, long way. And this is also why, because in my job, I do a lot of wine tours. I'm super reluctant to do that because I'm relying on third party. which I'm not sure. One day, the service could be fantastic, and another day could be disastrous. And when you have very high-profile clients, you cannot take the risk, right? So this is why I am super happy to do my own stuff, tasting wine, going. My last trip in Xinjiang was 10 days, 2,000 kilometers, 17 wineries. This is bang, bang, bang. If I sleep on the floor, I don't care. So, all right. But when we come to hospitality, it's a different matter. And so far, there are people really moving forward to that. But you don't need one. You need a full word of that. You need to interconnect. I think there is a lot of good steps that have been done, but there is a long way to go.
- Speaker #1
You know, it's super interesting because what we've seen, I mean, I've just seen pictures for now. And you see like massive places. Like, I think I saw a few pictures. I was like, what the fuck? This is in China?
- Speaker #0
Yeah, yeah,
- Speaker #1
yeah. Like the European mind is, I think, not ready for seeing this type of chateau. Yeah,
- Speaker #0
guys, but this is reality. And it's built. It's not just pictures. So, yeah, there is, I think, in the Chinese mindset, you go big or you go home. All right? You need to show. You need to show your wealth. You need to show. This is a mindset, right? So are we comfortable with that or not? It's up to us to cope with that. But I mean, and this is cool because the slick, it's a blank slate. So they have this opportunity to write it, to write their own history. And I'm very excited about that. For being the witness of that, I'm super jazzed about this.
- Speaker #1
And also... So, yeah, just for the tourism, there is one point, obviously, that is lacking is the information accessibility.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. Come on, those places are really remote. I mean, you go to Yunnan, I mean, it takes me 12 hours door to door. Right. So, I mean, it's like also taking international flights. You go to, you do Shanghai-Qunming, Kunming-Shangri-La, and then you drive four hours. And I love that. But again, I love that as a person. Yeah. Because there is this sense of going to a trip. Right. And taking this camping car, driving 2000 kilometers in 10 days. It's not everybody's taste. Right. And should it be easier? I don't think so. Because this is also, you know, it's always, you know, devil's advocate. Right. But if the gates open and it's so easy, then it will be a nightmare because you need to control that. Let's keep in mind. Right. I mean, China is a. People's Republic of China, right? It's people, right? So if you become a touristic place, there are places, trust me, during the national holidays, there are places you don't want to be because it's really packed.
- Speaker #1
Really crowded. You just talked about witnessing the Chinese wine's evolution and their quest to becoming, to realizing their self. So like...
- Speaker #0
Oh yeah. Something to say. China 30 years ago was not in the top 30 and now they are in the top five wine producing countries, right? So this, yeah.
- Speaker #1
And what's interesting also is that maybe a few years ago, but you talked about that with the new generation of winemakers in a way, but maybe they wanted to replicate Bordeaux or replicate what was happening outside of China. I feel that they try now to find their own wine style, their own, like realizing that they have their own things.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, I think all the new ones, all the new ones in the world are kind of doing that. I mean, you go to Napa at that time, it was very Bordeaux. And I think the choice of grapes, I mean, they choose Bordeaux for red and Burgundy for white, right? So I guess China is also on this path. China is on the process to create his identity. So terroir, finally, I dropped the... The almighty word, right? The terroir. So Chinese terroir is absolutely under the making. You go to Ningxia, there are four or five sub-regions, all right? So you have Yingxuan, you have Holanchan, Holan Mountain East, and inside Holan Mountain East, there is another sub-region called Jinchan, the Golden Mountain, which is very close to the Appellation system, right? This is... for me, is super exciting. And, I mean, back, and this is one thing, so territory, terroir, territory, okay, we go on around that word, plus grapes, okay? What's going to be the Chinese grape? Everybody is, you know, kind of getting attentive, get some attention toward that, because that's what, it's a natural process. New Zealand was very much for Sauvignon Blanc. Malbec in Argentina. So, you know, everywhere, every wine country is trying to define its identity, right? So for China, we talk about Marcelon on one way or Cabernet Garnished for the other one. But again, China is very diverse. So I don't believe that one single grape can represent China. It's the same with food. We're back to the same, right? Nevertheless, Marcelon is quite planted in most of the region. So you can... do a Marcelin tasting from 10 regions. Very easy. So which is super exciting. All right. Uh, that's why I'm very active about Marcelin day. We also have a Marcelin day in China,
- Speaker #1
which is a day for everything.
- Speaker #0
I mean, I use all those day grapes day, right? So, uh, 24th of, um, of September is we will do, uh, uh, Cabernet Sauvignon because Cabernet Sauvignon day was, uh, 30th, but we push. 35 august we push so yeah there is a great day i i and this is on the wct uh website right uh so i try to use those great days to use if they are grown in china then i i do an event around that um so yeah marcelo is some and marcelo has been brought in china in 2001 so again by domain Franco-Chinois. So it's very, the story, this is We could do a separate topic about Marcelin's story in China. Marcelin's success story. Because this is really what it is. Yeah, we could do a full podcast around that, but not today. But Cabernet Garnished is a bit the loser in the fight. White grape, very interesting. Longyan, that's a local grape, which I think will be very exciting too. That was the first Chinese white wine ever. So, yeah. But again, it takes time. And so those are very by the book. And this is one thing I wanted to also emphasize. You have all those guys who are doing pet nut, orange wines. And the big trend now is Blanc de Noir. All right. So I'm super excited about that because I think I've never seen so many Blanc de Noir steel wines. Okay. I mean, Blanc de Noir, obviously, champagne. Right. Sparkling. Sparkling. but Blanc de Noir still wine. So Blanc de Noir from Marcellin. Who would have known? Who would have believed? Who would have... Believe in that. I got a Blanc de Noir from Syrah and also some local grapes. Last Saturday, I tested Blanc de Noir Cabernet Franc. So they have already some sparkling Cabernet Franc Blanc de Noir, which is, I loved it. I'm a big fan of Cabernet Franc, by the way. Last one I taste is from Beaujolais, Garnier Blanc de Noir. That's the new discovery. So, and this is what I like, those tasting. It's like, I... Every tasting, I discover something new. So you never get bored. So this is what I say. I want to pay tribute to those people because those winemakers, okay, they're always mostly in the shadow. In China, we don't promote winemakers much. Unfortunately, we promote masters of wine. They have big aura here. We promote the owners because they have the cash. but The guy who works in the shadow and under the crazy sun are those winemakers. So I absolutely want to pay tribute through this podcast today to those extreme, the whole frontier extreme winemakers in China. And there is another point as well that I'd like to share, which is coming back a bit, touching a bit about those nationalistic sentiment, the Guo Sha. China belongs to Chinese wines, to Chinese winemakers. I don't necessarily agree with that. So because there is a big topic, there is a big debate about the consultant winemaker, the flying winemaker. The winemaker you bring into China has no clue what he's doing because he doesn't know anything about wine in China. I don't necessarily agree with that. And I challenged one time a very famous Chinese winemaker. I asked her, she's a lady, so you probably guess who is she. But anyways, why do you do that? I mean, you know your terroir way better than anybody else. Why would you bring some people from Bordeaux or from around the world to do wine with you? And she said, no, you know, those guys, they know the international taste. They have exposure that we don't have. And this totally left me voiceless because she's extremely right. So, The fact to say China belongs to Chinese vineyard and Chinese winemakers, I don't think it's right. I really love collaborative mindset. I think it's very interesting, especially with China and Australia, for instance, that the Australian winemaker come to China to do wine vintage and the Chinese also go to Australia. What we've seen recently was La Chapelle was doing... this type of it's not a drunk vintage it's a joint wine uh with pen falls uh well this one is a bit crazy uh because the cost of making that is is insane uh the transportation of the juice is insane but the idea is absolutely fantastic so my wish for the next step is to see this happening in China with a very notorious winery. We have Rothschild, we have LV. doing their wine in china but why not seeing some juice from france make with a blend with a juice from china to make a to make a a super interesting blend which is going with all our mixed you know this is all about you know blending is really much uh into the wine industry right so blend culture blends um you know so this is why i'm not super supportive of the idea about China belongs to China when it comes to wine.
- Speaker #1
The wine industry is always about sharing and making.
- Speaker #0
We open the bottle,
- Speaker #1
right? Exactly. So, yeah, you talked about Blanc de Noir and about white wines that are a big trend right now in China.
- Speaker #0
Not so big. Okay. But it's what I suspect to be really the next step. Yeah, and I didn't explain why. It's good to get back on this. because As I said, originally, historically, Chinese wine world is very much about red wine. But the shift towards white wine has finally happened. Hallelujah. Because we were waiting for it for at least a decade. So it was very conservative. And now, thanks to ladies, consumers, the bottle of white wine with five ladies after work to share finally is happening. But it's happening too fast. so in the vineyard is not enough white to supply this demand so this is why you need to switch to do Blanc de Noir. And I think it's very smart because the cost of production actually is not so expensive. So it's a win-win. It's a win-win.
- Speaker #1
We've also witnessed a lot of sweet wines in a tasting. Yeah. Obviously, it comes with the new wave of consumption, trying to get people into wine.
- Speaker #0
I'm not too sure about that. I think sweet wine has always been there. because there were a lot of sweet reds. So, yeah. So the sweetness has always been there because the sweet is the friend of the newcomer. Okay? When you start your journey to wine, it's very rare you start with very dry, very crispy white or even dry reds, right? So sweetness into the wine, especially in Chinese wine landscape, has always been there. But saying that... the quality it was very cheap sweet red you know you can you could have found that in georgia back in the days right okay so it was kind of similar with china so high volume um we don't there is not care much about the craft but now we do late harvest we do ice wine so this is really a another step and of course the price is also going together with absolutely
- Speaker #1
Absolutely. I think we have covered already a large number of topics. I mean, it's very interesting. It's a very interesting introduction to Chinese wine, Chinese markets.
- Speaker #0
I've tried to be, not to talk too much, to be focused.
- Speaker #1
I'm trying to think if I have other things. Marine, do you have a question? No, no question from Marine. All right. thank you very much
- Speaker #0
Lionel for thank you for having me guys you know very excited about doing that because I think you know I do this quite quite seldom actually but it's it's helped you as well to put your idea to structure your ideas right so I think it's a it's a good exercise thank you for giving me the opportunity it's a it's a good one
- Speaker #1
I still have three last questions okay that are always the same podcast to podcast sure the first one is do you have a book recommendation for me. Yep. Especially about wine.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, of course. So I have two book recommendations. One is from, so one is about Chinese wines, all right, which is very, very seldom to find and it's a new release. It's been made by a mixed couple. He's half German, half Spanish, and she's from south of China, all right? They used to live in China. And they just released their book. They started in German and now it's in English version, right? So I think it's, I will share all that. So the Chinese Wine Dragon is the name of the book. And it's made by York Philip and Svana Wu. Very interestingly, they were in China for a few years and they traveled. we collaborated a bit on this book. Uh, they were asking me some tips about which one are a special journey for the middle kingdom.
- Speaker #1
Right. So we will put the link in the description for people listening or watching. So
- Speaker #0
I think it's a lot of, uh, stories. Uh, it's like more like, a road trip type of book, right? Nice. Yeah. So I think that's where, and another one, a bit more classic. Um, because I mean, as, as, as, as a wine, I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm a wine expert in a way, still under the making, but I'm also a wine lover. So this one is called The Story of Champagne. Sorry, I'm very classic. By Nicolas Faith. Okay. So that was my summer book. Okay. So I want to share that with you. It's extremely well written. And this guy is a British gentleman. It's really the pure sense of being a gentleman. Uh, he's also investigating. So his, his way of writing is, is, is, is amazing. So I had a very good time. So I'm, I'm always criticized by my friend to always even read books about my own, uh, business, but I don't know. It's just a passion, right?
- Speaker #1
So I didn't,
- Speaker #0
so about the introduction before I mentioned, I forgot to mention passion is what defines me a lot. But anyway, I guess you guys got, you got that already.
- Speaker #1
Next question is, do you have a recent tasting that you like, something that you want to share with people?
- Speaker #0
Yeah, before going to that also, because books and... uh, film movies. I will put them together. So there is one addition I'd like to bring here about Chinese wine. It's not a, it's not a movie actually, but it's a documentary and it's, um, uh, raise raising the, Oh, I got a blank here. Sorry guys. Um,
- Speaker #1
but putting the spotlight on the, on the, no, no,
- Speaker #0
I forgot the name of the,
- Speaker #1
um,
- Speaker #0
of the, the, the documentary. Um, Okay, anyway, guys, I will get back to you on this.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, I think you send it to me.
- Speaker #0
I send you. So this one is an extremely well-done documentary. So there is a lot of wine people from the industry. Also, we'll help you for your future interview. So back to the...
- Speaker #1
And we'll put the link in the description as well if you want to find it.
- Speaker #0
Raising the Sleeping Grape. Sorry. It's coming up here. Back to the tasting. Same. One tasting. that's always a difficult tricky question so one tasting from uh outside of china and one tasting from china right i couldn't i couldn't only have one right so really one key tasting i which totally blew my mind was about pierre opan uh it's a winery from suave it's it's a cult winery uh we got a a vertical tasting on that it was early this year and i i was crying as as as and again i i'm i'm not really um advocate about one winery tasting but but those guys they are they are masters of craft they are you know i don't i don't have words for that but really suave is very interesting grape uh gaga nega um so that was really something really got my mind um again i loved i love Italian wines, despite being French. Sorry for that. And then, so about Chinese wines, I absolutely wanted to pick a Chinese wine tasting, which I was not involved, because I think it should be fair not to have a conflict of interest. I'm sorry, I failed. But it's not about me anyway. We did, I mean, obviously, very exciting Chinese wine was... Last Saturday. Yeah,
- Speaker #1
absolutely.
- Speaker #0
That's for sure. For me, it's a highlight. But the one, I work also with the same organizer. I have a residence with them. They are in YNAB, if I may say the name. And there were one, so I do one grape one month, as we talked before. And one particular totally standout was the Syrah tasting. Because it's a very niche, very few. winemakers are making.
- Speaker #1
Syrah from China? Yeah.
- Speaker #0
Syrah made in China. Yeah, that was this tasting blew my mind. And from all around the world. All around. So Chinese is a big word, but just China. So this was February, I think. Syrah days in February. Who would have known? Which is good, actually, because to warm the heart. And also put in perspective between uh north rome and south rome for the sierra style uh yeah yeah there are it's very promising on that front so drink sierra guys drink chinese sierra still a lot of things to discover in that and final question for this interview is who is the next person i should interview yeah this is the word the most difficult question of the interview so again i mean i had to prepare that a little bit Um, as I said, uh, in this, um, documentary, you will find most of the, uh, movers and shakers of the Chinese wine world. And I think, uh, there are probably all of them interviewed there. Oh, maybe not. Maybe not. Maybe not. Anyways. So, um, I pick four, five people. I'm sorry. It's not, it's, it's a bit out of, uh, but, and I'm sorry if I forgot some people, uh, I deeply apologize. to the audience for that because if they hear that and they don't hear their name they might be a bit upset i'm sorry for that guys anyways without further ado um dan zhongshan um is um a mastermind of uh he's not a flying winemaker he's a driving winemaker uh i don't know how many kilometers he's making he's based in ningxia uh he's uh trained in uh burgundy if i'm not mistaken uh french speaker uh and he's uh I think he's more than a rising star. He's the star now. Anyways, to my assessment, he's consulting for at least eight wineries in Ningxia, from Pinot Noir to Syrah to Malbec, Vionier. Yeah, top of mind. Also making some sparklings, some pet nuts. Everything he's doing is a gold finger. So, I mean, yeah. I'm very impressed by his consistency. He has also his own brand, making one of the best value for money Cabernet Sauvignon. So, yeah, you absolutely, I'm not sure about his English, but yeah, he's a French speaker anyway. So, Don Zongsheng, definitely a very interesting character. If you can catch him, because even when I go to visit in Ningxia, he's not even available for me. But it's fine. He's an amazing guy.
- Speaker #1
We'll do this in a car.
- Speaker #0
yeah we haven't just set up and if you drag so many a second so i picked two winemakers another winemaker we go a totally different region his name is fang jian um he's a very lucky uh i'm not sure he would agree to interview i hope he will um he was born and he was trained in australia uh he worked for shangri-la winery for quite from some years which is the state-owned enterprise in the biggest winery in Shangri-La region, obviously by the name. And I was very lucky to cross his path and ask him to join Xiaolin, which is also a cult wine in China. And he made some amazing Chardonnays out of that. And now he's doing, he also has on site his own project, which is called Ming Yi, with the two other amazing guys. They are planting Pinot Noir in the high altitude. And they also released their first Chardonnay, which is also... very very exciting so uh very two different person two different styles both amazing wines sorry the list is i let you let you continue number four will be richard richard lewren quite quite quite a persona in the in the wine industry we were a colleague at ac fine wines back in the days and now he's the man leading two major winery belonging to htc group a taiwanese high-tech company uh domaine franco-chinois dfc and the sister one or equal canaan janan um which also uh shabai pien because they have different naming right uh a veteran from the wine industry french speaker too a beijing run so very uh tough character very nice guy uh his story is amazing uh i don't say more you will have a good time to interview him. And he's in Shanghai. He has a lot of time in Shanghai.
- Speaker #1
It's critical for us to go to Domaine Franco-Chinois and to tell this story because it's emblematic of Taiwan.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, and it belongs to a Taiwanese company now. So anyways, number four is amazing gentleman, which is a very dear friend, very gentleman in any sense, American gentleman. who knows Shanghai by heart. He's an expert in building, in history. He's doing tours. He's doing historical tours here in Shanghai. And he's also the chairman of the Shanghai Wine Society, which will celebrate 20 years this year. I'm a very happy member of that too. So Patrick Cronley, ladies and gentlemen. Again, I don't say much. you will have an amazing time to interview him. Okay, last one. We are back to Hong Kong. To Hong Kong. Very different environment. But nevertheless, I think he's... Is he the future of Chinese wines? I don't know, but he's very involved, both from the winemaking to the wine promotion. His name is Eddie McDougall. As the name doesn't stand, I don't even know where he's from, but he spent a lot of time in Australia. He has a company called the Flying Wine Maker, and he's also involved with the Wien Wine Competition, Chinese wine competition. And he's very knowledgeable. Maybe he wouldn't have the same input and insight of me about Chinese wine, but he's been traveling all over China as well. So thank you very much. I'm sorry I'm over time. No, no, no.
- Speaker #1
No worries. It is great with this recommendation because you covered also a lot of... topics, you know, from making wines to sharing them, to talking about them.
- Speaker #0
I hope you guys had a good time listening to me and you didn't sleep.
- Speaker #1
And see you soon. And you gave us good opportunities to come back to Shanghai. Yes,
- Speaker #0
yeah, yeah, guys. As I said, we can break down in a few more podcasts and I can be a bit more precise in some topics. Again, that you would like to hear from me, right? I'm not pushing here if there is a need. And And we could also open some bottles at one stage, right? Because, I mean, it's good to talk. It's better to taste.
- Speaker #1
I couldn't agree more. If you like this episode, please share it to at least two people around you that should discover Chinese wines. I hope it gave you the envy to discover that.
- Speaker #0
And let's do it in Chinese next time. Because this is also our audience, right?
- Speaker #1
I'm learning, but I'm still at the beginning. So I just know how to say, je m'appelle Antoine. My name is Antoine. So it's a bit... thank you very much Lionel see you soon bye bye
