Transcription

• Speaker #0

  Hello Pierre-Marie.

• Speaker #1

  Hello, hi, how are you?

• Speaker #0

  Good, thank you very much for being with us today. So before starting this episode I need to thank Arnaud who in the previous episode of this podcast recommended you as the next guest and so we sent you a message and here we are today. Thank you very much for bringing some pastry between French people, it's a tradition.

• Speaker #1

  Early in the morning, I guess better than champagne to start with.

• Speaker #0

  I don't know if it's better than champagne, but it's okay. So yeah, thank you very much for this.

• Speaker #1

  Pleasure.

• Speaker #0

  Obviously, we're going to talk about a lot of things around Master Sommelier,

• Speaker #1

  about Jackson Family Wines, all the things that you do. But before that, can you start by introducing yourself? Yes, of course. So first, thank you for having me. I think it's a great opportunity, this kind of podcast, to share a little bit of insight, see what we do and get to know each other. My name is Pierre-Marie Patieu. I'm from France. I'm from south of France. And I've been in Hong Kong for almost eight years. So originally, I'm from the south. So I was born in Avignon and I grew up in a little town between Avignon and Nîmes. And so that's, I think, where I started to get the love of food and wine surrounding by... food, wine, cooking and this kind of thing.

• Speaker #0

  It's a good place in France to fall in love with this.

• Speaker #1

  And good weather too. So then I moved to... so from France I went to school in Nice, so that's to specialize in hospitality, so cooking, waiting, housekeeping, everything. And of course focused on wine on the last year. And along the years of my study I was lucky to work in different areas of the world with this school, I got the chance to go to, to Corsica, to Spain, to some places in South of France, to work there, to learn there and to really start my, all, hospitality experience. So that was pretty, um, tough at the beginning. Then, I moved to, we're going to go a bit more detail later, but I moved to England. I was a little bit less than 20 years old to learn English. The whole idea was to go there for six months, but then I stayed over there for 10 years and I started to work for Jackson Family, as you mentioned, about 12 years ago. So when I moved to Hong Kong, I was already working for Jackson Family. And here I am. So overall, I'm based in Hong Kong for Jackson, but really my role is to go around Asia So all across the region to represent the wine, to do a lot of training about the Jackson family, about the one who have big portfolio of wine from all around the world. And really the focus will be on sommelier and to help the wineries to be recognized in some of the best places, fine dining, restaurant, Michelin star, five-star hotel all around Asia. So that's pretty much what I do.

• Speaker #0

  And so you were, since you were a kid, you were, passionate about food and wine. And so this is why you wanted to start this kind of education?

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, I mean, I don't know exactly when I had the click, but at some point, I must be around 12, 13 years old. You know, in France, you have to choose what job you want to do around 13 years old to choose this, which is pretty early, but it is what it is. I wanted to work in a fine dining restaurant to be metronome. So I always wanted to be on the front of house. I love eating. I love cooking, but professionally, it's a bit more... difficult. So I guess that came from my family background. I mean, I don't want to be the boring guy who say I learned how to cook because of my grandmother and blah, blah, blah.

• Speaker #0

  But it's not boring.

• Speaker #1

  It's always the same story from everyone. But let's say on my mom's side, it was all about cooking and about setting up a nice table when we receive guests and so on. And on my dad's side, being born in that. He came naturally, so I decided to go for the hospitality school. Yeah, Nice, which is in south east of France, so pretty far from where I come from, was the best option. So I decided to go there and did all the program for six years in school. So it was pretty good.

• Speaker #0

  Okay, so it was not like a specific event or something like that? It was more something around you?

• Speaker #1

  I think he has a whole process of growing up in this thing. I mean, In my area, you have a lot of vineyards around. So I used to go cycling in the vineyard without realizing it was vineyard. And so it's always been part of it. Everyone at home was drinking wine on a daily basis. Not the greatest wine in the world, but it's part of what we do for lunch, dinner. So I guess we like every good French kids, we drank wine with a little bit of water when we were young. So that kind of helped us to understand the project. and also the culture because again wine i mean it's now it's our specialty um But it's just a link to share at the table or during a tasting or some events. But wine, it's about pleasure. So it's always nice to work in a field that you like. As they say, if you do what you like, you don't feel like working.

• Speaker #0

  Plus you bring pleasure to people. So it's a good combination. You know, it's funny for me because wine, a bit like you, like... I used to have a few drops of wine in my glass, in my water glass on Sundays when I was a kid. But on the other hand, I was living in the north of France. And so I think the first time I saw actual vineyards, I was like more than 15 for sure.

• Speaker #1

  I didn't see any vineyards for so many years. Yeah, for sure. But again, it's a different culture and that's the beauty of our country. It's very diverse. It's very big. So you probably drank beer before me.

• Speaker #0

  yeah I hope so and so you do you do this school um you you discover a lot of different approach in the hospitality industry a lot of different work and so at

• Speaker #1

  this point you realize that you want to be front of house and more specialized in wines so the thing is yeah in school you do or even bar. I mean, a cocktail is not really my thing. I'd rather have wine and so on. So I've worked the training periods for about six months each year, four to six months, in a kitchen, in a Michelin star, and then in a front of house, in a restaurant and so on. And yeah, kitchen, I mean, it's good, but it's very, very hard, very tough as a job. Rather cook on a Sunday at home. But then, so I really wanted to be on a... service part. I like that, I like the service, welcoming guests, understanding the guest, which I did at the beginning. And then I realized that I was working with, in a restaurant I used to work, it was in Corsica, some of the first training in Porto Vecchio in a Grand Hotel de Calarosa, so very nice place.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, their worst place for an internship.

• Speaker #1

  It was pretty good. And sommelier was great. He was really a good entertainer, great knowledge, but very simple. And I realized that yeah, This guy in the restaurant is alone. I mean, he's got one assistant, but we're an old team of waiters. And he's got him as a seller and he's the one going to every table, telling nice story, making people happy and sharing his knowledge. And working on food and wine pairing, which is something I think we can talk a little bit later about. I love food and wine pairing. So I got close to him during my internship. And I came back to school and I realized that, okay, probably that's what I want to do. So it combines really the service part of it with all the decanting and so on. The food part of it with the food and wine pairing. And of course, the psychology because to be a sommelier, I've learned from many people along the way, but it's all about understanding the guest and the... recommending something according to their taste today and not tomorrow. And I think I moved back to school and I focused on this mention complémentaire sommellerie. So after the normal courses, I've done one more year to focus on this in Nice as well. And then from that, I moved to work in south of France, in Les Baux-de-Provence, in La Cabre d'Or, which is a restaurant that was one Michelin star. And again, I had a new head sommelier there. He was pretty young and dynamic. Benjamin Bonanno, which is, I mean, he's one of my mentors. And so I've learned a lot from him on the hard way. So working long hours, not sleeping much and having to learn every day. And that's really, I got, I think the passion online from this moment. As you just, you're very tired, you polish glasses. And while you polish glasses, you learn something about a producer or something, which is good. We had a strong team over there and so on. So after a while, a few months, I really needed to learn English. So that's when I moved to England. So again, I think wine is something kind of grows on you. And it's, if you go for wine, you probably get into it and you don't really see. But suddenly you just... Live for it. Because wine is about the project itself, but it's about travel. It's about history. It's about chemistry. How is it made? I was lucky to make wine as well. I meant to make wine. I'm not a winemaker, but to clean some pump and some pipe in a different area. So in Corsica, in Clos Canarelli, so in South, in Figari. So that's where I did the harvest first, which was very painful. Yeah. And then I helped to do all the pressing.

• Speaker #0

  I think it's crucial for a sommelier to learn from that.

• Speaker #1

  And then in Nice as well, in a very small vineyard from Belay, very small village in the north of Nice, southeast of France. So again, to start by that is the basic. So when you smell the wine, when you taste the grape during fermentation, after fermentation, the oak aging and so on, it really made me realize that, yeah, that's what I want to do.

• Speaker #0

  Plus you can tell better stories to the consumers after that because you understand what's behind every bottle, every label.

• Speaker #1

  So that's amazing. And so you arrive in the UK. Do you already have a job there when you arrive or you just arrive? No, I apply for a job. Actually, when I was in France, in Les Baux-de-Provence, I had this opportunity in Burgundy or in the UK. So again, it was just to learn English, to learn about wine. I didn't know anything else. I didn't know anything about ones from outside of south of France, probably. Of course, I knew a bit about Bordeaux, Burgundy, Champagne, Loire, but nothing really big. And so in Burgundy, it was again commis sommelier position. So really bottom of the hierarchy. But one of the great house in Burgundy. But I really wanted to learn English. I realized that it's important. So when I moved to England, I worked for Hotel Duvin, which is actually the same place where Arnaud used to work. And at the time, so it was created by Gérard Basset in the mid-90s, I believe. So when I moved there, it was 2008 or 2009. And so Gérard Basset was gone already. But head sommelier of the whole group was Ronan Seyburn. So again, another mentor that I had through my years. So I moved there in Cambridge first. Again, commis sommelier didn't speak English. I arrived there with one list, which was probably 60% French wines and 40% New World wine. I mean, non-French. Yeah,

• Speaker #0

  non-French.

• Speaker #1

  Which for me was a big stress when I arrived.

• Speaker #0

  Which is amazing because this is something you don't have in France.

• Speaker #1

  Exactly. So I didn't even know that it was some wine from New Zealand. I probably didn't know where was New Zealand on the map. But then I started to learn about American wine, Argentina, Chile, even Italy, Portugal and so on. And so the six months I've planned to stay there became two years working for Hotel Duvin. So after Cambridge, I moved to London for the same group, which was called Bistro Duvin in London. So then I was at Sommelier, so very young. So that's thanks to Ronan to give me this opportunity. And again, I've learned from many different people in London. Then from that, I moved to working in a... I mean, to do the opening in a shop which was still in London called Hedonism Wine. So that was in 2012. So it's a shop which was kind of... It was about to revolutionize the retail industry in terms of wine. And so I was lucky to do the opening. So when we opened, we started probably eight or nine months before the opening to set up everything. And it was about 15 people working. And out of that, it was eight sommeliers. So it was really to have sommelier-focused staff to work in a very fine and prestigious shop. And so I did that for a little bit less than a year. I had the opportunity to taste some of the greatest ones in my life. But I realized that working in a shop is not really something that fits for me. So again, I'm grateful to have been there. I've learned so much about the retail industry. But then going to a shop and waiting for customers to approach, it was not really my thing. So I went back to work in restaurants. So I worked in one Michelin star restaurant in London again called L'Autre-Pierre. So I just moved to this place again. There are two restaurants at the time. And so the owner, which was also in charge of the wine, of the small restaurants, in charge of everything, Mathieu, again, I've learned a lot from him in terms of management, in terms of very small producer from France and things like that. And while I was working there, I mean, even though it was a French restaurant, the wine list was very international because, again, I like wines from everywhere. I was buying a few wines from California, from different parts of California, Napa, Sonoma, from the south, from everywhere. Without really realizing it, some of them were part of the Jackson family wine. And so again, talking about mentorship, so the gentleman working for Jackson family at the time, Dimitri Ménard, which is also a master sommelier, approached me and we had great conversations about how much I like American wine and so on. And so we ended up having some interviews together. And after a few months, I started working with Jackson family. So based in the UK. And so I was in London going around to sell American wine to a fine dining restaurant, which was a bit complicated.

• Speaker #0

  Kind of a challenge. Yes.

• Speaker #1

  As a French guy, always been working in restaurants. I mean, this retail gap years, I mean, years that I had in the middle kind of helped to understand what people need. But to go around... in January, in London to sell American wine in cold and wet weather. Yeah,

• Speaker #0

  it's cold outside. It's dark.

• Speaker #1

  So I had a few months of struggle. But yeah, then after all, I mean, again, talking about mentorship, Dimitri was here to support me, to help me. And now 12 years on, he's still my boss. So send me over to Hong Kong to do the same around Asia. So yeah, it's weird how it goes that... Coming from a small village in Rhone Valley, ending up in Hong Kong selling American wine. I mean that's what I love about wine as well. You never know where it's going to go, what's going to happen and as long as the product is good and the philosophy behind it's healthy let's say, I think it's pretty good.

• Speaker #0

  It's very interesting what you say about wines from North France because this is really something I realized being here so I arrived in April, Before that, we were living in France. And this podcast was in French before April. So we used to go discover amazing French winemakers and like go to really different regions. We always go to restaurants or, you know, wine places. But I realized that we were kind of always drinking French wine, basically from every place. So you have already a lot of choices. But, you know, the level of wine from not France wine from North France that I tasted, it was very low. Like almost something I didn't taste. And arriving here, I realized that the wine menus are generally really super wide. Like you have a very large selection of wines from everywhere. And so you're able to taste really amazing things. A lot of times at very good price, at least in Hong Kong, like you can really find great things. And like from since I arrived, I think one of my... My most amazing thing is the German Riesling, you know, like the Spatzlese, the Hauslese, this type of things, which I knew about in like trainings that I did and stuff. But really having the opportunity to taste that just as a glass even, I think it's amazing too. And I guess it must have been the same for you in the UK, this opening to like wine from abroad. Yeah,

• Speaker #1

  it can be a bit overwhelming at first. And as French, we think we have the best food, the best wine and everything.

• Speaker #0

  Which is true. But yes,

• Speaker #1

  I was about to say that. Now the thing is again wine is about culture and history. And if you have some amazing wine everywhere, some bad wine everywhere. But again, it's all about what you like. You talk about Riesling probably one of my favorites from Germany, from Moselle or from Ringau, some of the best wine, at least the best one I had in the past 15 years. But the thing is, when you get into something, into a region or a country, first, I believe us, we as a consumer, you will drink what's available. So it all depends on what the country of production will export and where they export and what do they export. And usually the first wines to be exported are probably the most commercial one, the bigger ones. houses or bigger brands. I don't like to use this word, but that's what it is. So if you're a country that don't produce wine, you will have this kind of thing first. So probably not the best in terms of quality, but it gives you a good idea. I mean, you need benchmarks everywhere. And it's more like with education, with sommelier, with traveling winemakers, wine fairs, people realize that, okay, the big names are important, historical, but then you have many, many small producers which... I mean, they are farmers. Yes. They don't know how to really, they don't really know how to export. So they don't have time. They spend the whole year long in a vineyard. So they need support of importers first in different countries and of course sommelier and journalists also to write about them, to make them not to make them famous, but to make people aware that they are here. And I think it takes quite a long time. Distance is one thing. I mean in France the most non-French popular wine will probably be from Italy or Spain.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, for sure. If it's from Alsace,

• Speaker #1

  it probably will be Germany or something. So if you geographically that's something very important so if you're a winemaker in South Africa or in New Zealand, I mean how do you get there? It's very hard, you need to fly, it's costly and so on. So I think the whole wine industry is based on of course the quality of the product but now the communication And now with this kind of podcast or media or social media, it's easier than probably 30 years ago when you had to communicate by phone or mail or fax or whatever. So I think the world as it goes, it's becoming one big place for wine rather than being individualistic. I don't know if we say this well. And I think there is always something new. I love wines from Rhone Valley. I'm from there. And of course, you have the big classic from the big appellation, Chateauneuf-du-Pape, Cotroti, Hermitage. I mean, I still think classic or best. But you have new young producers, young winemakers who kind of travel around as well. So they do their internship in Australia, in Argentina. So they come back to their roots with a fresh view. And I think at the moment, actually, there is in France at least... And in Italy too, actually. A big switch in terms of generation. So you had that third or fourth generation of winemakers, which are around 25, 30 years old. They're taking over slowly from their parents, which already took over from their parents, but that's kind of a very similar vision. And now they're a little bit more, they're a little bit younger, more fresh, more dynamic. They make wine different way.

• Speaker #0

  Plus they didn't internship abroad or that type of thing. So they, like they were sent by their parents to Australia, to the US.

• Speaker #1

  And so they come back with a bigger view, bigger vision. And as I understand that making the wine, when you have great terroir, you need to respect that. And I think that's fair enough. And so that should be like that forever. But then they make different wine. If you have all this whole bunch winemaking, you know, like a little bit lighter wine, less aging barrel for wine, for wine. to attract younger consumers at a better price as well. Because, I mean, who can afford a Grand Cru from Burgundy now? Not me, at least. So that kind of thing. But you have some young winemakers, they approach Burgundy with fresher vision, as you mentioned, and to have wine which is more affordable and something we can drink in the next five years. Because if you want to drink a very old-school Premier Cru from Burgundy, you probably need to wait 15 years, which is fair. But who is waiting now to drink wine?

• Speaker #0

  I do wait sometimes, but yeah.

• Speaker #1

  You need to drink every day too.

• Speaker #0

  But I still need wine for every day. What you said about market maturity is super interesting. I feel it's been kind of the same for China and potentially part of Asia. And I guess you're the closest witness we can have today about this. I feel like 10 or 15 years ago, you could sell everything. whatever wine you wanted to China or even to other countries in Asia. And now, so like you just needed, I think the joke was like, you put a chateau, you put a castle on the label, you write in red and you know that your bottle is going to be sold and at a good price. So that's okay. And I guess now it's more, we're more on the education part of this. And it's like, actually there is a crisis of wine in China now. but I think it mostly focuses on this type of wines. And actually, if you do good wines or niche things, you still find clients and potentials because just the market is more educated. And basically, you have the same crisis in France. Like no one is buying wines that are random or like just made for consumption. Everyone is buying stories. Everyone is buying...

• Speaker #1

  very specific appellation very specific estate or that type of things and yeah you're very right completely right and I think this is due partly to COVID because COVID was I mean not a very good time, but many people stay home for a couple of years. So instead of going to a restaurant or to a shop to buy wine, people were staying at home, buying online and cooking at home, and they had no much to do. So when they were buying wine online, they would probably do some research about it because they had time. So they get kind of interested, educated, and they realize that wine is broad, is big, and instead of always buying the same thing that they know, so it's safe. So they start to learn, listen. And so I think that was a nice beginning. And again, social media now, I mean, it's helpful at some point. It's unhelpful at other point because people think they know everything because they saw it on a specific application on the phone. But wine, we also have this part of China, China, opening up knowledge is opening up yes but wine in um i think i can say it's everywhere in a in a in the world there is a lot going on about status so if you invite your businessman you just made a huge deal with your customer from a different country uh you want to impress them so you probably go to a very nice restaurant uh you will buy a nice bottle of wine and what is a nice bottle of wine It's expensive.

• Speaker #0

  It's the most expensive.

• Speaker #1

  And what's expensive and safe, and you know, a hundred percent is going to be good. It's probably Bordeaux and champagne. And that's what kind of was not anymore, but that's the thing about fancy wine. So, I mean, if you want to impress someone by a bottle of Petrus 1982, I'm sure. Even someone doesn't know about wine will be impressed by that. Um, And I think this education part, the knowledge part, as you mentioned, makes people think like, OK, Petrus 82 is nice. But can I drink something as nice in terms of quality, but probably a little bit more affordable? And yes, so that's when people really start to read about wine, to understand. And I still think, I mean, Bordeaux for me, it's a bit old school. I like to drink Bordeaux. I like to drink sweet wine. I like to drink Madeiras and things like that. But it's very classic. And I think, again, we drink every day. People who drink every day need to find something else. So you're talking about China. I've been lucky enough last year, or this year actually, to go to visit a few wineries. So I went to Yunnan, I went to Shandong. And there is, thanks I think to the consumer of China for the last 20 or 30 years, the investment in a vineyard over there in the land is great. And they're really aiming... to the best. Of course you have some big production and everything but before it used to be only big production cooperative. Now you have more independent wineries opening everywhere. Small, big, big name foreign investment into China also so many different things. But I think it's focusing on quality. So again, you can make good wine everywhere now and you can make bad wine everywhere too. But with the new technology and the understanding of terroir, of regions and production methods, I think China has a great future in terms of winemaking. Their vineyard is still a little bit young. I think in the next 15 or 20 years, the vineyard will be around 45, 50 years old. So that's when you really have a great age for the vine to produce outstanding wine. So yeah, the wine industry... is maturing, as you say. So China is one thing. Southeast Asia is very different again. Again, we are in Hong Kong. We are lucky with taxes in terms of wine in Hong Kong. So before, I mean, I traveled a lot in Southeast Asia, all the Philippines, Vietnam, Thailand, Malaysia. People will come to Hong Kong as a mature market, as you mentioned, to have a weekend with their family. They'll probably come to eat in a fine dining restaurant, Michelin star restaurant. European or Asian restaurants, they will probably go to some wine store, buy a case of very, very fine wine with no tax, put them in their luggage and bring them home and drink it at home. So now this still exists, but a little bit less because again, in terms of distribution since COVID, people couldn't travel, people couldn't go to experience these kind of weekends. So many importers...

• Speaker #0

  From all these countries decide to import wine to understand how to import wine. Because again, I mean, logistically, it's very, very tricky. If you import expensive wine or rare wine, you don't want to be to stand in a cell in a container or something. So people get to understand how to do that and they're doing it. So in all these countries, Southeast Asia mostly, the wine selection, the wine choice is expanding. And it goes from fine wine. to very local, small Austrian producers who produce just a few hundred cases. So really the diversity is changing. And I think in our sommelier industry, what helps, it's Michelin. So kind of the wine selections follows or it's in part with Michelin restaurants. So if Michelin establishes itself in a country like it did in the Philippines or in Malaysia very recently and in Thailand a few years ago, That will bring fine dining customers from all around the world. Maybe we don't realize it, but many people travel just for Michelin stars.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah,

• Speaker #0

  absolutely. So if you have one or two or three Michelin stars, you need a nice wine list. So more wine into the market and so on. So it's like a snowball effect. But then I come to a point that I wanted to mention. Education. Because more wine you get in the market, more knowledge you need. so need more knowledge for the sommelier to educate the staff in a restaurant and to a certain extent to educate the consumer. Because fine dining, most of the time we'll have a tasting menu with a wine pairing. So wine pairing is really important in terms of texture. And I mean, we all know how good wine, good food and so on. But how to explain, like, why do I put, I don't know, just a random example. if you're in Thailand you have a very spicy dish with some coconut milk and so on. What do you pair with that? Wine from where? Would you go to Bordeaux? Probably not. Would you go to Italy, China, New Zealand? Which grape, which style, which sweetness? So it's all complex, but it's unlimited. Because food and wine pairing is very personal. Of course, it needs to match. If someone recommends this with, I don't know, Torontes from Argentina, why not? I don't really like Torontes. I don't really care about it. So why? I don't know. It's very complex. So it's all about education, one bottle at a time, one tasting at a time. And I think it's something very important.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. Plus, when you're a sommelier, you need to know the wine. You need to... tell the story around it and in the end as a consumer when i go to a restaurant what i expect from the sommelier is of course that the wines are good but that is that he knows where does it come from who is doing it like what's the story behind it not to the like not to do to the weather of the actual day or whatever i don't care about this but just like knowing the region and knowing the you know what's behind the wine because it's like it's really for me the yee by the intermediary between the producer and the consumer, but it needs to deliver this message to the end.

• Speaker #0

  It's something I always say for us as sommeliers. We are not doing anything, let's say, producing anything. We are not producing wine, we are not producing food. But what we are producing, it's a moment. So you need to understand the wine and understand the food and understand the people that you're going to talk to. So you create this moment, which can be unforgettable, or it can be really bad. You need to understand your guest as a style of event. Is it lunch? Is it dinner? Is it business? Is it a couple? What budget was he willing to spend? If someone wants to have a...

• Speaker #1

  Their level of knowledge also.

• Speaker #0

  If someone wants to have a Bordeaux Red with some oysters, because 10 years ago he met his wife drinking Bordeaux Red and oysters, they can have it. They can. Is it our own? They will be blacklisted, but they can. Yeah, they'll never come back. So now it's really the psychology behind is great. But yeah, I understand the knowledge is important. But yeah, the knowledge of people is also really, really important. And wine is something we don't necessarily need in our life. So we drink wine and we go to a fine dining because we want to. Because we can afford to. I mean, do we need to eat every day? Yes. Do we need to drink water? Yes. Wine? No. Like I need glasses. So I probably afford, I mean, pay for some glasses. So wine, it's an extra. It's like a piece of jewelry or something like that. So if we are willing to serve someone who is willing to spend some money in wine, we'd rather do it well. and not still there on it so that's something which is also very important and so understanding of the level of customer you've got is something super uh uh mini scheme in terms of the personalization around that um let's

• Speaker #1

  come back to when you arrive in hong kong um so how does that work like basically uh the the guys from jackson family just say okay uh let's go to hong kong here is your suitcase, we ship you some wines.

• Speaker #0

  No, so it was almost like that. So we had a conversation with Jackson for me to go to Asia. So we didn't know exactly where. Singapore was a possibility. Hong Kong was a possibility. Korea was a possibility. And so we have distribution in all these countries of Asia. So Jackson is about, I think, like 100 different importers in Asia. Each of them imports different wines exclusively and so on. So my role was really to come and to help these importers to recommend and to educate sommeliers on Jackson family wines. So I moved to Hong Kong because the dining scene, it was and still is very, very exciting. And I had a few friends there, including Arnaud, including Johan, including Cyriel. I mean, a few people from the UK. grew up together kind of in the uk in terms of our wine education and working some in the same restaurant some no but then they were already here so i kind of had a few friends already because moving from um yeah this part of the world to the other side it's kind of not easy and then from that so i got to meet all the importers starting in hong kong of course and go to see sommeliers so i mean on a daily basis it's pretty much As I was explaining earlier in Hong Kong, when it was nice and cold in January, it was pretty the opposite. My bag full of wine again and very hot and humid. So another adjustment to make. But just go and see restaurant, introduce myself, talk about the wine and get to understand what people need here. Because the consumer from Hong Kong and from the UK is very different. The sommelier knowledge is very, very different. Here, I mean, in England, I was a foreigner, but it's in Europe. I mean, I was in Europe at the time. Here, I'm a foreigner, so I need to adjust to the culture, to the food, understanding the food. I mean, talk about wine pairing. I guess we talk a lot about that. But what wine do we pair with food from Canton, from Guangzhou, from Sichuan? I mean, it's all new. Everything is new for me, and that's good. I like new things, I get bored very quickly. So to have a new philosophy, new culture, new language, not that I've learned Cantonese, but a new perception of wine, it was very interesting and very kind of exciting to adjust to that. So really I'm still learning every day. And now I'm traveling a lot in Asia, so going from Japan to Singapore to... Vietnam, Korea, everywhere. And each country has got its own, of course, history, culture, language, money. But when we are around a bottle of wine, the conversation is very, very similar, which is the beauty of food and wine. So you can drink a bottle of nice Chinon here, or it can be a Cabernet from Napa Valley. I think you can be very rich, very well educated on the opposite side. but when you have a bottle of wine He makes everybody on the same level. And that's what I like about wine. Because we don't talk about ourselves. We talk about the wine. Do you like it? Do I like it? That's most important. Is it good or bad? Doesn't mean anything. It can be good for you, bad for me, vice versa. So wine, I think we always need to respect what's in a bottle. The work that has been made for a year by a producer or even more. But then it's about exchanging. and I have some very nice conversations with some friends, somebody about wine, about the style of wine, the winemaking, the vintage that we taste, this vintage, that vintage. But then again, traveling in Asia, you meet people with very different palettes, tasting wine with someone from Japan, with probably some of the finest taster and finest palettes that I've met. in general, it's really making generality. And then with someone from, I don't know, yes Sichuan, for example, has been eating spices all his life. I mean, for them, they need wine with a bit more power. But does it mean they don't know anything? No, no, no, just very, very different. And again, I think I mean, of millions of wine produce, so there's potentially one wine for everyone, one style of wine for everyone. So yeah.

• Speaker #1

  that's for sure and um yeah that that's uh that's very interesting these different uh perceptions and the way you need to talk about this as well because you you can't say the same thing to a guy from szechuan and to a guy in japan they don't have the same background they will not feel the feel the same yeah um and you know it's funny what you said about um the the type of moment that you have around wine because when we arrived in in hong kong i think a few like one or two months after we arrived, maybe a little bit more, but we went to Shanghai for our first Chinese wine tasting. It was a massive event around Chinese wines, but actually it felt like a wine tasting in France, you know, like Salon des Vignerons or something like that. Like you basically just had a bunch of winemakers, like, I don't know, 50 or 70 winemakers on tables with their bottle of wine. And being like pouring wines, discussing with you about what they do, explaining you. And it was very like known experience for me, even though it was with people who I could barely talk to because, you know, the language is completely different. So, yeah,

• Speaker #0

  wine is international. And again, it's people working in some vineyards, working in a field, let's say, to bring back their own history, culture, vision to us. So I think it's amazing. It's still a project from the agriculture. I mean, we eat beef from a specific area or some seafood, oyster, I mean, fruit, veggies. Wine is the same. It's just fermented in a bottle. And then it ages as well, very well. So I think it's something which is really diverse. And again, it's just to bring people together.

• Speaker #1

  You talked about Southeast Asia, so Thailand, Vietnam.

• Speaker #0

  Malaysia.

• Speaker #1

  Malaysia. How do you see the wines opportunity there? Like, is there a... It feels like when I talk to people here in Hong Kong, it feels like the Hong Kong market is a bit more difficult at the moment. Like, not that it's not working, but it's already saturated. Like a lot of people, a lot of wine importers, a lot of just people already selling wines. When we talk about China... It's like, you know, China is a difficult place as a Western guy because you really need to understand Chinese people. You need to like really work with them, speak with them. And it's sometimes hardcore complicated to do that if you want to do it locally. So do you see like Thailand, Vietnam, Malaysia as places of opportunity? Like you should go there and just open a wine shop.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, probably. And the thing is also Hong Kong, yes, saturated, yes, kind of. But Hong Kong has always been a hub for wine in Asia. So because of the localization, location, sorry, and taxes. And taxes, yeah. And Bordeaux, Burgundy, Champagne, that's where really people invest. And Hong Kong is known for investment in terms of wine, of anything. I mean, again, it's a financial hub as well. So yes, there is a lot of wine in Hong Kong, but I still think there is space for more because people are getting more educated. So their cellar is full of Bordeaux, Burgundy and Champagne. So they'll probably need to try something else.

• Speaker #1

  Plus they are curious. Yes, very curious. They are super open. Exactly.

• Speaker #0

  And the thing is, and we know the dining scene in Hong Kong is great. There's beans and dine. Perfect. Southeast Asia then. So I think the one which everybody talked about for the last. Couple of years is Thailand. I mean, a bit more than a couple of years, which has been booming in terms of restaurants, bars. I mean, 50 Best, Michelin, and so on. So it's all Bangkok. It's all on the hype at the moment. And again, the wine industry follows this. So you have more people opening restaurants, so more sommeliers, more knowledge, people traveling. So you need more wine. So people import more wine and so on. New importers as well. I think, yeah, Singapore, again, pretty much like Hong Kong in terms of a financial hub, not too much tax on wine and a financial hub. So people have money to spend in big names. But what I like about the rest of the country, so Vietnam, yeah, Malaysia, I think that's the two most important domains, the one I go to at least quite often, is that people are willing to discover many types of wines. So, yes, of course. You need your Bordeaux, you need your Champagne, and your Burgundy, and your Napa Cab. But because the dynamic of the dining scene are young people, so they want wine which are a bit more affordable, made by young people to be consumed very early, to be good in the next four or five years, let's say. So they will be looking at wine from a smaller region, smaller country or smaller area. So if they go to California, they will probably not go for the Napa Cab. They'll probably try Pinot Noir from Santarita Hills, you know, Pinot Noir and Chardonnay from Oregon. If they go to France, they'll probably go to Jura, Savoie, Loire Valley, instead of going to Pauillac and Gevrey-Chambertin. So it's really something which, again, gives more diversity, more depth to wine selection, to wine importer selection, portfolio and to wine list. But all that, it's happening very fast. So this is a thing, again, to talk about education. So with the Court of Master Sommelier, I'm sure we're going to talk a bit about that in a second, but it's already established in the main countries in Asia. But in the last couple of years, we are developing countries like Thailand, Indonesia, Malaysia. And then when we do exams in Hong Kong and Singapore, we can really see people coming from these countries. So our aim is to go to this country. So we do Vietnam as well. Sorry, forgot to mention that. So to get the knowledge closer to the sommelier, we cannot really afford to travel because traveling is expensive. Hotels are expensive in Hong Kong and things. And you need time as well. So if you do an exam which lasts for five days, you probably need to go one or two days before, one or two days after. And in hospitality, it's very difficult to take 10 days off. So our role is really to go to the sommelier who wants to learn. And I think that's something which is important. And it goes with, again, as I say, you have 50 best Michelin star importers, education, everything grows together to become in a few years a mature market like we have here in Hong Kong or Korea or Japan or Singapore.

• Speaker #1

  So the transition is perfect because I wanted to talk about Master Sommelier. So can you tell me more about it? Like, when did you go for Master of Sommelier first? What it is?

• Speaker #0

  So Master of Sommelier, so it's an organization which was created in the late 60s in the UK. So Court of Master of Sommelier, which was really at the beginning, was really to get a qualification in the UK for wine. So some people were involved as a sommelier, of course. Some chefs were there, some importers, some wine merchants. So it really started pretty widely, then focused on really the court of master sommelier, so for sommelier. And the whole idea is really to push people to get more knowledge when working in a fine dining restaurant. or in a normal restaurant actually, it doesn't need to be fine dining, but at the time it was more fine dining. And also one of the most important things of this quartermaster's family is to create a community. There's not so many MS in the world at the moment, which the numbers are growing because knowledge is getting better and better. But it's really about sharing information, sharing knowledge and just getting better. And I think it is an exam, it's not a competition. So there is some years when nobody will pass. The competition, you always have someone, number one, two or three. So Court of Masters Sommelier, if you don't have the level, you don't pass. And it took me 10 years to do. So I didn't have the level for nine years. And then one year I've passed. So it took me quite a while. But I've started as soon as I moved to UK, to Cambridge, because it's some things that to be working in Hotel Juvin, you had to go through it. It was all sponsored by the group. So it was really a very good gift and a chance to be working there to be able to take the exam. And then as you go, I mean, you have four different levels, Introductionary, Certified, Advanced and Master level. So it took me quite a few years. But the thing is, what you learn going through this, So, of course, you need to learn about wine. And so that's very important. Winemaking, wine, production, names, food and wine pairing, the service. And of course, you have the blind tasting session, which is very, very tricky. But also you invest a lot of time and money. But you meet great people. We're talking about Arnaud. We're talking about, I mean, Mathias in Singapore. We have Johan here. Who else is there? Joao, Pires. There is many, many people around the world which we gather together. And it's simple. When we go through these exams together, we really are in the same amount of stress because it is very stressful. And you really understand what people go through. so Now I'm meeting some people which are past MS or studying MS. Even if I don't know them, we speak the same language when it comes to wine, of course. So it's super interesting to see. And I think with this Court of Master Sommelier, as a student at the time, you're looking for mentorship. And so you have quite a few MSes. the previous generation, so people who pass in mid-2000s, based in the UK. And I was lucky to have some mentors over there, so Ronan and Dimitri, which are still mentoring me. But that's what you're looking for. And all these people are coming from either Gérard Basset generation or, to a certain extent, Brian Julian, which is... the founder of the Court of Master Sommelier, who is still around giving classes at 80 plus years old. So he comes to Asia once a year. But that's inspirational. I mean, this person, when I look at them, you just want the humility, the knowledge, the experience. So that's exactly what Master Sommelier should be about. And again, developing knowledge, sharing information, sharing experience. So that's, yeah, that's what it is.

• Speaker #1

  Now that looks like a path that is amazing.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah.

• Speaker #1

  And, you know, we've came across both Master Sommelier's and also Master of Wine, which look like kind of two different paths, but that are basically kind of the same, no? Like different certification, maybe different modality of exam.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. But the vision is the same. The vision is the same. Talk about the wine. I think that's what it should be, the wine first. And then, again, Master of Wine, some of them, they make wine. Some Master Sommelier produce wine too. But overall, Master Sommelier, it's usually more for restaurants. You have this vision of service, pairing, and tasting too. But Master of Wine, I mean, it's for journalists. So the knowledge is really, really wide in terms of, sorry, winemaking, terroir, and what you need to give as a master of wine is something I probably wouldn't be able to. So it's very academic. You need to write quite a lot to explain some winemaking technique or some business strategy for a certain region. So it's really something which I respect and I kind of admire Master of Wine because it's different than Master Sommelier. But I know a few people taking MW already, but I can listen to them for hours talking about a specific topic. So it is different. But I mean, the aim is to just have a better knowledge on things.

• Speaker #1

  What matters the most is probably the path that both of Master Sommelier or Master Point are going through, which is... Meeting people, tasting a lot, having mentors that help you discover things. Being inside a community of like-minded people, it's kind of the same.

• Speaker #0

  Every year there is a tasting in Hong Kong with Debra Mabel. So about blind tasting, wine with food, some wine from all around the world. And so I try to be part of it every year and it's always a good thing. We are having... um, yeah.

• Speaker #1

  same vision good wine good people and that's pretty much it I hope we'll have Debra on this podcast soon enough it would be great we're in contact so I'm sure I'm sure we're gonna arrange that in the next few months probably well thank you very much for all of this Pierre-Marie I think it was a good interview I have three last questions that are always the same. The first one is, do you have a book recommendation about wine?

• Speaker #0

  Yes. I mean, one is very hard to get. So it's nice you ask about book because I like books. I know now we study a lot online and I'm a bit old school too. So for me, my favorite writer will be Jancis Robinson. So yeah, Jancis Robinson book. So she writes. quite a lot but really I really recommend it has probably the best maps as well that you can find online or in books so yeah any books from Jancis I mean try to get the updated version that will be my

• Speaker #1

  recommendation alright we'll put a link in description to Jancis of course and by the way so you mentioned food and wine pairing do you have any like theoretical

• Speaker #0

  advice for food and wine pairing like a resource or a book or something about this or more i think you just go eat and experience because again the only rules of wine pairing is that there is no rules we all know that but it's really um yeah just try cook yourself just drink and it's just i mean it's not a bad time to no no it's okay it's okay there is worse than just uh trying what is the the last bottle that uh the last bottle that you really enjoy? That's a good question. So, yeah. Recently, I was lucky enough to try some very old Bordeaux. So, I had Chateau La Conseillante 1970 recently. But again, a few months back, I was lucky to taste some Vega Sicilia. So, winery from Spain. So, it was an event. Yeah, so it was a few different vintages of the Unico. through magnums. So I had a chance to try four or five different vintages. And this winery is very sentimental to me. It's one of the first wines I opened when I was in England, when I didn't know anything about it. So it's, again, it's about the emotion. So is it the best wine in the world? No, no, maybe not. But every time I drink this kind of wine, it's about the sentimental... The memory. The memory, yeah, exactly. So yeah, I think these two, I mean, 70 Conceant was fantastic. But to be able to taste four vintages from Magnum or Vega, I think it's something very rare.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, I love these two estates. La Conceant is absolutely amazing. Yeah, it's amazing wines. And Vega Sicilia, actually, I think I tasted my first a few years ago, like two or three years ago, in a big tasting... like in big dinner in France with a lot of wine people and you know it was kind of polé where everyone was just bringing wines on tables and sharing between tables and stuff and so I ended up at some point with a Vegas in my glass I didn't know about it never tasted it and I said I was like wow wow yeah what the is this and so I discussed about that with my my neighbor and turns out it was a big time again big pretty good big history

• Speaker #0

  family i mean big family behind but yeah somehow the greatest one of spain yeah i really love it um and finally who is the next person we should interview yeah so i think i really want to recommend you one thing i have one person who came to my mind when you asked me that and uh so she's a sommelier one of the greatest uh local sommeliers that i know of so she's based in uh in macau so her name is winnie so she's working for grand lisboa palace so she's really a dear friend And I think she will be very happy and excited to share her vision as a sommelier, working in, again, different countries. So she's not a French lady. So I think it's good for you to talk to people coming from not far from here. And yeah, I hope she will like the interview.

• Speaker #1

  Amazing. And I can't wait to go to Macau for the first time. I try to not lose all my money there, but we'll have a good time. thank you very much it was an amazing discussion together thank you for the opportunity for people that are still looking or listening it means that you absolutely loved this podcast so please share it to one or two or three friends that need to discover wines from abroad I think it would be a nice conclusion to this conversation wines from everywhere good wines from everywhere don't forget to subscribe and that's it thank you very much thank you

• Speaker #0

  Thank you. Nice.