Transcription

• Speaker #0

  All right, perfect. Hi, Derek.

• Speaker #1

  Hi, Anton.

• Speaker #0

  Good. Thank you very much for being with us today. So we should have met each other actually end of last year. But fortunately, we found another moment to have this discussion together.

• Speaker #1

  Right.

• Speaker #0

  Actually, the first time we met you was at The Sealand. People who look at this channel, I think they already know very well The Sealand because 50% of the time... I'm there and 50% of the content we are doing is basically at Lucilene which is a super nice wine bar in Hong Kong so at that time we were training sommeliers around a table and actually Mathieu so one of the of the partner of Lucilene told me you have to interview Derek he's one of the most interesting guy in wine in Hong Kong so you guys should do something together and so here we are you

• Speaker #1

  I'm always very interesting. Thank you. Thank you for the invitation. Thank you.

• Speaker #0

  It's a great pleasure to have you. Can you start by introducing yourself?

• Speaker #1

  So I'm Derek. So basically I'm from Hong Kong because we are in Hong Kong now, right? So as you see, I was doing some education with the younger generation. So mostly I can say I'm an educator, but my task actually is a bit complicated because I'm also doing a study as well. I'm a full-time master's sommelier. exam candidate as well at the same time also so many as well so i my task which is complicated but most nightly i'm doing education i'm also teaching wsct as well okay yeah um how did you start in the in the wine industry i think i used to drink a lot but you know i was a working on in the bar basically i was working in nankui phone that's why it's really been for a really long time before so i started to like drinking who doesn't like drinking right Thank you. If you want to be actually working in the wine industry, the first thing you need to enjoy is all about alcohol. This is important. But at the same time, I work actually on the floor as well. I used to sell so many alcohols because I like alcohol. I want people getting happier. So that's why I want to see people drinking alcohol. At that moment, we have a lot of beautiful champagnes. We have a lot of wine as well in Lan Kwai Fong. So basically, I don't know nothing.

• Speaker #0

  You don't know anything?

• Speaker #1

  anything about wine but I can sell because I just want to encourage the people drinking alcohol and my I was actually one of the best best seller in the restaurant and my general manager told me hey Derek you sell a lot of alcohol and wine as well but you don't know anything about wine and okay I said yes I don't know but I can sell but and she encouraged me and said hey you better study WICT by we're going to sponsor you everything from our company me. So that's why my journey started from WIC Level 1 and 2. And of course, I passed. I didn't destroy my WIC at that moment. It's a really long time before. I don't know how long, 10 years, 15 years before, I guess. I just remember. And after that, I started to understand about why. I started to create my interest to study everything even further. So I did my WIC Level 3 and I passed. And after that... I see a different certificate called Comas de Sommelier. And then I try that. And fortunately, I pass again. I pass my IS and certificate Sommelier in 2014, which is a really long time before. I'm happy. And I think at the moment, I start to understand about more wine. And I want to see a lot of people that bring their wine to my restaurant. If I sell some wine, at least I can tell them a story behind the wine, which is happy. And yeah, that's it. So that's why I start my journey by someone encouraging me to study about wine, which is I don't like study. I'm a poor student. At the moment, I didn't study my university as well. I'm such a poor student, I can tell you. So that's why at that moment, I started to think if I want to get promotion to get higher position, so why not study something and then you promote much more faster because I was. the captain at that moment of course after that i started to be my position is just like helicopter it's just like promoting to supervisor and the finally i was a manager at that moment which is crazy in five years yeah this is crazy so

• Speaker #0

  yeah that's my journey it's a it's fun how you started just uh like selling stuff yeah don't even knowing what you're selling you know being like this is good beer this is a good champagne go for it uh, So Long Kuai Fong, for people listening to us, if you're not from Hong Kong, is basically the place where you have all the nightclubs and the bars and very festive neighborhood of Hong Kong. Like the atmosphere is very different from traditional sommelier environment, you know, with nice restaurant, white napkins and stuff. It's definitely not the atmosphere of Leng Kui Fung. So it's fun how you transition from a place where you just like sell shit ton of alcohol to having more specific stuff.

• Speaker #1

  We have a lot of alcohol. As you remember, we serve like Lamborghini. I don't know, do you know this kind of cocktail or not? It's like famous Lamborghini. We used to serve it, especially having birthday. It's one of the most iconic famous cocktail to make people drunk. That crazy. Where you have one Lamborghini, one famous Lamborghini, you get drunk. I'm sure. Normally people, maximum two Lamborghini.

• Speaker #0

  What's in the cocktail?

• Speaker #1

  This is actually famous cocktail. It's created by a lot of alcohol inside. I cannot remember. It's a sample car. I forgot what's the ingredient, but there's a lot of ingredient inside. So in blue color. So we normally use a little bit of 151 on the top. 151 is actually one of the strongest, highest strength rum. But it's not producing animal. It's from Bagadi.

• Speaker #0

  Okay.

• Speaker #1

  So it's one of the most easiest to get famed spirit. If you want to try, maybe you can find it from eBay. I don't know. I'm just curious.

• Speaker #0

  I'm not sure if I want to try this one. Maybe a few years before, I would have been keen on that. But now, you know, with the age, as a grandfather, I would say I take more and more time to recover from going out. So I might skip this one.

• Speaker #1

  I still like Epsom. I'm still encouraging people to drink Epsom. Because a lot of people surrounding me, if they know me very well, I drink a lot of Epsom.

• Speaker #0

  Okay.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, I'm big for Epsom. And everything from Ennis, I really like.

• Speaker #0

  even chacuzzi or even something like that i really like that so i find this uh i find this crazy this alcohol is absolutely crazy i uh i had i had it once but you know the traditional way so it was a like a big uh like a big jar and you know it was dripping on the sugar yeah sugar yeah we drink it and uh but it was not in france because i think in france it's forbidden uh it's a forbidden alcohol because i don't remember the exact story but it's like someone drank it and killed someone And then it was like, this alcohol makes you do crazy things. It's like the... It's more crazy. Yeah. It's like the satin alcohol. So we forbid it.

• Speaker #1

  I think now it's okay. I think you can find it in France. Quite sure,

• Speaker #0

  yeah. I don't know. I haven't tried. But yeah, I think you can find, but it's lower in alcohol. I think at some point it was like a crazy level of alcohol.

• Speaker #1

  Because the alcohol level could be very diverse. could be something like 40-50 something 60-70 as well so it could be very diverse in alcohol level but if you dilute in water so basically you have slightly better you know you don't normally get very drunk yeah but you don't drink like a shot right if you drink like a shot so you sleep you just want to enjoy this kind of like you know alcohol it actually tastes really good yeah I love the taste

• Speaker #0

  I have a good memory of that right do you still drink that much today Okay.

• Speaker #1

  I actually I like that I like both I like Epson and Satris I drink it all the time if I can find Satris because it's not easy to find now so basically it's getting more expensive and occasions become limit so basically I can you cannot find a lot of Satris in Hong Kong so basically it's not easy I think the VEP is amazing but it's only maybe mostly I can find auction you know the price has become more expensive but Epson I cannot find a really good bar for absinthe in Hong Kong. I have it. in Melbourne which is one of the best bar for Epsom you can find so many Epsom from everywhere different part of the world so it's amazing Hong Kong we are not a big fan I think when I ask a lot of people do you like Epsom they say no come to me yeah so if I go to Melbourne

• Speaker #0

  I will send you a message right do you still sell as many alcohol as you were now that you know sometimes when you don't know anything about it you just want to like sell massive amounts and be like, you know, just putting things out, earning money and that's it. Now that you have this level of education in wine and in spirits, do you still manage to sell that much or like, do you have a different approach?

• Speaker #1

  I think if you're working as a management because my role basically, my previous job is like beverage director. So, obviously, I'm a different outlet. So, basically, I can sell but You know, my task become like more like management side, like how you educate yourself, how you educate your people to help you to sell better. So basically the training is very important. Why training is always priority. And you have to show them how to do that, how to sell pee, how to sell this different alcohol. Because I'm overseeing not only wine. We are talking about cocktail, we're talking about whiskey, different kind of beverage. Even sake as well. So how are you going to approach the customer? How you can sell by themselves? I can sell, but I cannot do my job like six hours, seven hours. So I cannot walk everywhere and sell alcohol. I need to teach people. So Education is more important. So that's an idea that how can I transfer this kind of idea to now I want to educate people, like younger generations, so many, I think. It's a good thing to let them know how to do better, right? In the restaurant, how they even create the wine, how they do inventory, how can they sell, how can they do pairing as well is important. This is why I transferred.

• Speaker #0

  So tell me, if I'm a young sommelier, how should I approach a table? Or what would be the approach for a young sommelier to sell? Because actually, it's fun that you mentioned that. Because in this podcast and in a lot of contents we've created, we are more on the production side. But in the end, this wine, this alcohol needs to be sold. Right.

• Speaker #1

  True.

• Speaker #0

  And this is basically the role of the sommelier. somebody is a It's a nice title when you work at a restaurant, but your end goal, I guess, is how much wine or alcohol in general did you sell? So what's the approach for a young somebody? Like if I want to really start upping my fingers and start redoing some results, how would you recommend to proceed?

• Speaker #1

  I think the first thing, the younger generation or somebody, they need to think about, you need to find something that you really, really like. Maybe a particular bottle. Even though a very commercial brand or even a very small producer, but at least you find one or two bottles of wine that you really like. Because I always encourage people, especially people working with me, I always tell them, you need to find something that you want to sell. Because, okay, it's my wine, but if you don't like my wine, it's hard to sell. You put the wine, or if you like that kind of champagne, but you don't like it, you don't really enjoy the bottle, and how can you sell it? So normally when I ask someone to sell something, at least let them try the wine first. If they really fall in love with this bottle, they can sell much more better than me. So I always take it talking about you need to fall in love for something first. And then just like something, everything's in your heart. And when you approach to the table, I think most of the customers, they will feel, oh, you really like this wine. And this is... This is the most important thing. You never sell something that you don't like. It's like, oh, this is a very bad wine. It's very crappy wine. It's like, don't sell it. If you think the wine is all good, don't sell it to the customer. Don't tell them the wine is good. Even though, yeah, I'll tell. Okay, if you really like yeah, I'll tell. Okay, go ahead. You can sell it. Okay, but you have to drink it. Because in my wine program, every single wine that I put in the release, I will drink it by my own. Even white bottle of glass, even the cheapest white bottle of glass, I will drink it by myself. So every single bottle of wine, I will drink it. I really enjoy it. More is my selection. So if you want to be a younger generation, just so many, you want to work in a restaurant, you want to do better, find something that you really like and try to sell hard. Try to build up the revenue, try to build a relationship for customers. I think the most important thing is about the whole experience. How you build up the relationship with your guests. and they are coming back for you and remember your name. That's important because if it creates a whole experience, they cannot remember every single little thing, even one single thing from you, that means you are not very successful because you cannot bring up something special for your people. So they need to learn about that, right? But that's it.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. No, I think it's interesting. And maybe like for a young sommelier, maybe you don't have the choice of what's on the wine list. because it may be like the beverage director or someone who makes it. But you can actually find one bottle that you absolutely enjoy.

• Speaker #1

  At least.

• Speaker #0

  And this one, you max it. Yeah. You go full throttle for it and you can find maybe a bit more than one bottle. So then... At least.

• Speaker #1

  You need to read about the story behind if you like the bottle. Because if you like something, you will actually do everything by yourself. You don't need someone to push you. Right? That's important. Because I teach so many people, basically some of the people, they have no interest about wine. So if you have no interest about wine... for my suggestion better change your industry to maybe on the floor as a management don't work as a sommelier so that's important for my for me and then when I have an interview for different people oh if you want to do a sommelier working with me together I say okay but I always ask one single question do you buy wine by yourself you say no I say bye bye right that's the small thing that's important right if you have a connection by yourself Have you bought a wine for yourself? Okay. At least you show some interest, right? And the second question I'll ask you, which wine bar you like the most? If you didn't go out for drinking, I have a doubt. Because I talk about the wine bar, I went to Mato, went to Cyclone, Bar Cyclone, even though different wine bar, even Zhaomei, right? Okay. At least you know somewhere, some places that you can find a glass of wine, right? And that's important. So this cool question always in my interview. So if you want to come, I don't have a job to hire you guys, but in the future, if you want to come to me and say I want to find a job, okay. But at least to question you to know, not learning about knowledge.

• Speaker #0

  So you know it, guys, if you go see Derek, better prepare for these questions. How do you, like, what have you seen in, so it's been more like, Like 15 years that you work as sommelier in Hong Kong at different level?

• Speaker #1

  Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah.

• Speaker #1

  Only Hong Kong.

• Speaker #0

  Okay. Have you noticed like a switch in the people working in this industry over the last 15 years?

• Speaker #1

  I think there's always a switch. Because 15 years before, I think we talk about the F&B industry. We have so many people. We have a lot of labor. So basically, nowadays... we have much more less people, especially younger generation, they are not very interested to work in our industry, right? I cannot say they are lazier. I cannot say that. But they would like to work something else rather than F&B industry because our industry is pretty, you need to work very hard because in Hong Kong, you know, normally your boss, they want to squeeze you like lemon. They want to squeeze. as much as they can, right? So you need to work very hard. So if you work in a restaurant, normally work like 10, 11, 12 hours, which is not easy. Working five days, six days a week. But somehow, when I was working as a waiter, you know, when I was a teenager, not teenager, I'm talking about 15 years ago, I was working as a waiter. So I start everything from very basic and learned. everything after a few years and I promote to captain but you just spend four years and then working at the bed polishing all the glasses polishing all the cutlery so I think now people they are pretty lucky because when you're working in the restaurant as captain you get promote one year maybe one year or two years and then so you can get promote in the hotel which is you guys you're very lucky because in the old day you work very hard and you just but you cannot work on the floor basically you cannot take the order You can just only do a lot of side job, preparation, missing parts, etc. So you cannot touch anything. So now people, they're lucky.

• Speaker #0

  You can advance maybe a bit faster in the career.

• Speaker #1

  True. And even though nowadays I think they are pretty like more like multitask because as mentioned before, we don't have a lot of people working in the industry. So basically, you need to, even though you're so many years, okay, if you can see... The food is coming out from the kitchen, but there's no wonder. I think you need to help as well because you just want to make sure the food is in the perfect condition to serve our customer. You need to explain the food as well, what is the ingredient, what is the sauce, how are you going to enjoy the dishes. It's not, I can say in the old days, of course, it's not our job. But now it's like we need to do it because we are work as a team. We create a better environment and to help each other. So, yeah. I think now it's become more difficult than before because we don't have people. That's hard. But it's a reality.

• Speaker #0

  That's true. Same, kind of the same question, but regarding education. So you told me earlier that you are a WST instructor here in Hong Kong. How long have you been doing that?

• Speaker #1

  For actually a lot too long. Only for one year.

• Speaker #0

  Ah, yeah, okay. Only for one year.

• Speaker #1

  Because I started to be educated. It's just like one or two years before. Because I still haven't designed what I'm doing. Because I spent my whole time for my study, for my master's or minor year. So basically, I had to focus. Only on study. I spent all my time for theory. But at that moment, I tried to think about at that period, I cannot work as a full-time because I leave my previous company because I had to focus on my studies. So I cannot work as a full-time. So I had to think, what can I do? And I was thinking, why not? I can do some education. And I think it's a good thing because I don't think a lot of people they want to do that because it's just like somehow I can say. as an educator it's kind of boring as well because it's also difficult boring because you are not working on the floor because I like working on the floor to talk to the people talk to different customers to sell my wine and doing a very creative wine pairing as well somehow even now I'm standing in front of you and then talking about knowledge okay boring right difficulty second thing if we're working as an educator second thing how can you draw all the people, those student's attention as I listen to you? They just, they'll be just falling asleep. Oh, okay. It's just very difficult to draw, right? You have to be pretty interesting enough to tell about the knowledge and to make them listen to you or draw their attention. Otherwise, everyone at the highway, they're just falling asleep at the end, which is no good, right?

• Speaker #0

  Plus you need to do it for or... like you need to draw attention but for a long time because i guess your study session is like two hours or something like that sure and so easy it's easy to grab someone's attention for 10 minutes and being like yeah this is this place in australia yeah but the family is easy but then uh that for two hours it's uh it's difficult um what's the profile of people wanting to to pass wine set uh here in hong kong i think the profile i think could be anyone okay

• Speaker #1

  If you are Interested about why I think If you want I think study WRCT Is not that difficult Yeah Except level 4 I cannot Guarantee You can pass Because it's Very difficult

• Speaker #0

  You know Yeah Because you have to Write the thing Level 3 Has become more difficult now

• Speaker #1

  Because I think They just want to Get much more closer To WRCT level 4 So level 3 And level 4 They become much more closer I mean, talking about the content they were sharing, they are much more difficult now. But I always think if you pay a lot of time and understanding the knowledge, I think it's okay. But the most important thing for study is about how you digest those information into your memory. Otherwise, you're just trying to remember without learning, without digesting that information. After one month, you forgot that. Just say, where can I find Libiano? I say, Libiano? No, maybe Burgundy? So, no, right? But you realize that if you go into the wine shop and drink a bottle of Libiano by yourself, take a picture and drink, somehow you get better memory. I think the best way to learn is first, if you have money. For me, I don't have money. But I always... encouraging people going to the wine region to take a look by yourself drink their wine if you can buy in the market buy it drink it and take a picture and then you have much more better understanding because when you study about wine if you if you're not really if you physically you're not really know or you try those wines actually you cannot have a better you cannot create a deeper memory in your brain so basically grab a bottle and then you remember better

• Speaker #0

  You know, it's funny because I passed the WST3 last year. And I have two different things. The first part is sometimes I was just reading stuff about a wine region I never went to, you know, like South Africa or Australia or whatever. It looks stunning. I love the wines, but I just don't know the place and it makes no sense. It makes no sense to me to... Like just be like, okay, this is this valley, this place, this is that type of climate, that type of one, blah, blah. Like I just digested this knowledge to pass the exam. But I think today I don't remember like 50% of it. And on the other hand, what you said is super true because one of the questions I had during the exam was, what's the difference between rosé wines from Tavel and rosé wines from the source of France?

• Speaker #1

  Wow.

• Speaker #0

  And actually... We've been to, like the summer before, we've been to Tavel and we've been to the source of friends for wine tasting. And so I was just like, okay, you know what? No problem. Easy. Yeah, I was just writing this.

• Speaker #1

  Right.

• Speaker #0

  And like, I didn't, I didn't even study that during the WST, you know, learning and stuff. It's just, I knew it because I've been there. I've met people. I've tasted the wine. And so obviously it was easier for me. So yeah, true. If you can travel to the...

• Speaker #1

  If you have money.

• Speaker #0

  Or a podcast about wine, it's a good excuse to do it. But yeah, definitely. I think it's the... Like either travel, drink, and if you can't do these two, just read. But if you can either travel or drink the wine, it's already a good start.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, read is kind of boring.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, it's...

• Speaker #1

  but you have YouTube now basically right you have to do it yeah different social media now basically you can go to YouTube and search the video and then it's actually much more interesting true to see the video from the wide region or even yeah

• Speaker #0

  the wide area as well you can you can follow our YouTube channel if you are if you are a student or a WSET student or whatever you will have plenty of knowledge from us so that's great You talked about wine pairing. It's an important part of the job of a sommelier as well. How do you do the wine pairing? What's your recipe for wine pairing?

• Speaker #1

  Firstly, you need to have a menu from your chef. And you start to think about how you're going to pair with your wife, your food together. I'm always thinking if you know how to cook, you do much better pairing.

• Speaker #0

  You know how to cook?

• Speaker #1

  I know how to cook since pandemic. Okay. I didn't I didn't spend Yes Because I At that moment I don't have anything to do And then I started to search YouTube How can I cope something And then I started Starting to fall in love To cope something So which is good I learned better So that's After that I asked I keep asking like My chef How to cope this How to cope How to cope this one How to do better pasta Do do do Etc And then Okay I do better I know how to cope now Okay Yeah after pandemic I think during pandemic I learned But now I cope much more better And And... Of course, okay, we're talking about the pairing. So firstly, you receive your menu. I know you're always thinking about fish may go well with white wine and red meat goes well with red, but somehow it's not true. You're thinking about the ingredient. You need to think about different cooking methods as well. After cooking method, you think about the sauce. White pairing is just like experimental because somehow you think the theory-wise, you think it's right. But somehow when you pair with both together, that's not going to work. Maybe somehow when you try like au cichon, maybe some other creamy dishes, you think it's a perfect match, but it's not. The bitterness comes out and the phenolic, bitter, that kind of. You don't like it. You don't like egg holl. I think it's all about how you can, how you're very brave enough to do something crazy. You never try, you never know. My best suggestion is if you're a chef, night wines I think it's more easier because your chef will come to try the wine and pairing wine and food and pairing together with you I think it's much more better because normally some of the chefs they don't drink and then they just create a dish without thinking how we're going to pair it with wine it's hard to get a balance because maybe the sauce is a little bit too salty maybe the sauce is a little bit too spicy you cannot find a balance but if your chef like it you can just do some adjustment and Maybe you're going to change my wine. So that's why you can create a perfect match, perfect pairing. Because pairing, if you make it right, it's just going to enhance all the flavor between wine and also the ingredient itself, right? If you make it wrong, both sides, they are going to be destroyed. So basically, no one's going to enjoy that. Just like example, if you want to drink Bolo with oyster, try. And you know the thing is like... Hmm. you don't like it that's the worst example that people I think a lot of people in Hong Kong they say oh it's ok give me a bottle oh ok it's just like one of the worst pairing ever absolutely right just thinking about that I'm like disgusted you know no no don't give me this no what's your what's your craziest food and wine pairing that you did not that crazy but I do a lot of interesting I think... experimental stuff I do orange wine with abalone but Chinese abalone I did something like

• Speaker #0

  Dessert, I do like. But it's also Chinese as well. Almond milk soup with Madeira. Okay. This is pretty interesting. And I tried one thing which is super, super crazy. I do a PX with truffle ice cream, truffle gelato.

• Speaker #1

  Okay.

• Speaker #0

  Basically, it's okay. But all PX. Very. Yeah. the food and wine pairing with ice cream is definitely something we need to do way more because we love ice cream and we love wine so yeah definitely something to do you think it's not gonna work because sometimes it's too earthy for truffle it's too powerful when you do PX because PX with ice cream is always a perfect combination but if you put one more in greener on the top it's like it's not really that good but if you find old PX you have that kind of earthiness savoury okay it's okay

• Speaker #1

  but it's always like you try something different even though you think maybe you want to pair with char siew barbecue pork people always think of Pinot Noir right maybe people will think about red wine we go we had this discussion with Pierre-Marie I would on my side I think German Riesling yes this would be amazing yes I haven't done it yet But the next char siu I order, I take a German Riesling as well.

• Speaker #0

  But the most important thing, even though it's the same dish, they have different recipes.

• Speaker #1

  True.

• Speaker #0

  So even char siu, they have different recipes as well. So we're talking about the fattiness. Because char siu could be very lean.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. Or could be very fat. Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  And second thing, if you put into the honey grease, it could be a lot of honey or less honey. So more honey, more sweeter. Less honey, less sweeter,

• Speaker #1

  right?

• Speaker #0

  Last thing. If you see somehow If you like char siew You always think about How you burn How you burn it With a If you see at the edge We have a burn at Somehow Everywhere they're different So this taste Become Created this kind of bitterness But if you're talking about A fatty char siew With a very strong honey grease Ristling always come It's not off dry Carbonate Specialty there Amazing Amazing pairing This is one of the best better than you know what I think we need to do it much better we haven't done it yet so yeah but I like char siu so that's why

• Speaker #1

  I love I love char siu honestly it's it's my favorite I could eat that every day lunch and dinner no problem char siu the best you know I'm super integrated in Hong Kong it's been less than one year but char siu is my favorite um Do you have a training about wine pairing when you're studying for sommelier, like sommelier certification and stuff, or is it just experimental?

• Speaker #0

  Not really, but I will tell them how you do better.

• Speaker #1

  Okay.

• Speaker #0

  As I told you before, you have to taste the food and wine together. If you like it, okay. Right. You have to be brave enough to do different things. If the wine doesn't work, change another one. Maybe somewhere which is crazy. If you have a Burgundy, Chardonnay, Meuseau, but it doesn't work. How about a bottle of Chardonnay from South Africa? Maybe okay. But somehow, if you want to create a better pairing, you always use something. Maybe something more crazier. Maybe some upcoming wine region, Chinese wine. Why not? wine from everywhere over the world. There's a lot of wine from different areas, right? So there's a lot talking about the well-developed country, of course, French wine dominant in Hong Kong, Italian wine for sure, but talking about wine from different areas, why not to get something from Georgia, orange wine, or why not to get a Chardonnay from South Africa? Why not? Right? And then they start to understand your philosophy and then think, hey, you create something. experience I haven't tried it before. I haven't seen any wine from China. And you bring me a bottle of Chia Le from Lin Shao. Okay, why not? They will remember you next time. Oh, last time you bring me a bottle of blah, blah, blah. Okay, they'll remember you because you bring me this bottle, right? So, somehow it's all about, of course, your knowledge need to be very good. This is like a map that you can have different choices because if you don't study enough, you don't know, wow, there's a wine from Zhoujia. Okay, we don't know. That's why from South Africa you don't know wow, right? There's a lot of why in the world. If you're not able to know how can't. How can you sell that? If you don't know what is that, you cannot sell it. You cannot put in your wireless, we don't learn. Hey, we have wine from Bulgaria. What is that? You don't even know Bulgaria. Where is Bulgaria? Okay, okay. Right.

• Speaker #1

  And on the other hand, are you sometimes approached by like domains or people selling wines, basically, and wanting to like make you be an ambassador of it or wanting you to like promote it on the different wine list?

• Speaker #0

  actually I'm doing a lot of I'm helping out the YRB doing doing other masterclass yeah and also like Y dinner tasting as well special Bonning J I'm helping them a lot in Hong Kong okay so and Nas I think Nas I'm doing with D-Cam with a skin product also from D-Cam as well from Dior so which is pretty happy with all those brands those big the most famous brands in the world so I'm helping them quite a lot

• Speaker #1

  And so how does that work? Basically, you just tell sommeliers like, hey guys, let's have a drink at Le Ceylon at 3 p.m. before your service and I will present you this wine and we'll talk about it.

• Speaker #0

  But that one is not for the industry people. It's for outsiders.

• Speaker #1

  Ah, okay.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, so tasting is like puppet tasting. So it's for people.

• Speaker #1

  Okay, just coming in an event or something.

• Speaker #0

  But I always tell my sommeliers as well, I think the pour is pretty good. Bollinger amazing we talked about Aldi the best the best champagne in the world why not we don't talk about VVF it's too expensive for us right we don't have money so basically Aldi you can sell it in a restaurant why not even vintage way too good enough because I was thinking people sometimes they they don't have a chance to try those products they know the product but they didn't try have experience to try those products they think they think it's no good but if you've been as an open wine people

• Speaker #1

  you actually you can try as much as you can which is good like me i can i love the kind of thing right so it's good yeah it's always amazing when you have these uh events um and so for the industry uh how do you organize yourself for like presenting wines to to the industry is it something you do and how does that work how you sorry can you repeat the question yeah like so for example the first time we saw you yes you were yes uh team of sommelier yes um How do you do that? Are you approached by domains wanting to display their wines as well? Like, how do you manage this part?

• Speaker #0

  I don't really want to promote during my class because I want to share my knowledge. But after that, maybe if they want to sponsor, of course, I bring their bottle. During the tasting session, in blind. So basically, when I open the bottle, it's this bottle. And then don't even... Because... I think blind tasting always comes very important for myself to have better understanding about the wine. Because a lot of people, they're judging about labels. If you give yellow tail, oh, this is a very shitty wine, yellow tail. But if you drink blind, that's another story. When you drink, you're trying to understand more because we know a lot of thinking about what is anything on a label, right? You don't really concern about what is the price and where is the wine come from. We just want to try the white and blind and we're downloading about, what is that? So it's kind of honest.

• Speaker #1

  Okay.

• Speaker #0

  Because you put in blind and then you have maybe some of the very commercial brands as well, you put in blind, oh my goodness, that's so good. If I pay for, okay, why not? Right? So if I do something like that, I will do it blind.

• Speaker #1

  Okay.

• Speaker #0

  So let them try the white first.

• Speaker #1

  Okay, so it can happen, but you let them try it on first. How is it to study for Master's for Manier?

• Speaker #0

  It's actually very difficult because I think you have interviewed with Pierre. I think he's actually a very strong candidate. I think he's one of the best friends from us. But basically, it's not easy. You just spend your whole life, most of the time, for study. So if you want to be a Master's for Manier, first year to pass your advanced for Manier, which is already not easy.

• Speaker #1

  So after you pass your advance Ah you first need to be advanced sommelier You can't go straight to master sommelier You have to do step by step

• Speaker #0

  So basically There are four different stages So basically you just pass the IAS And the certificate So many You just pass these two And you can try advance Which is not easy I think we have 20 something I think we have 20 people They pass advance in Hong Kong Yes almost 20 yes So basically after that you get it. You might have a ticket. Because once you send your email to the court, basically you have to wait normally three years. to five years for waiting list.

• Speaker #1

  Oh, wow, okay.

• Speaker #0

  So I got a very lucky opportunity during pandemic. I think most of people, they cannot fly to London, right? So basically I tried to send the email to the court. Oh, can I get a position? Because I really want to try. And I, okay, said, oh, we have some, you know, some position for you because I believe, they believe there's no one going to London. Maybe somehow they find difficulty to go there. And I would say, okay. And I try. and four years before I was in London I tried my very first attempt okay so now it's like this year gonna be my fifth year I don't want to I don't want to waste my time but I try my best it's a good journey it's a good journey

• Speaker #1

  I know so yeah okay so we hope this future it's gonna be it's gonna be the last for you as a as a training master sommelier we hope you will you will have this one. Derek, thank you very much. I think we did a good interview together. Is there anything we didn't mention you wanted to mention in this interview?

• Speaker #0

  Okay.

• Speaker #1

  Okay, so if you have a team of sommeliers you want to train, you know that Derek is here. Now you know. Now you know. If you're looking to work, to sell more wine, basically, you need to train your team. And for this, you need to hire the right people. I think I saw you're a DJ as well.

• Speaker #0

  Yes. I think I like music then. Same as the level I like wine, you know.

• Speaker #1

  Okay.

• Speaker #0

  Because I think it's all about how you enjoy life better. It's just like a lifestyle. that's very important in my mind. Wine, somehow, is very important in my life as well. So, why not both?

• Speaker #1

  True.

• Speaker #0

  Right? We cannot have only one thing in... our journey in our life, right? Which is kind of like, I cannot say boring, but somehow you can get something as a hobby somehow, right? Music is like amazing thing, you know, to make you relax. It's just like a perfect partner. Yeah. Together. Especially when you have a difficult time and then when you listen to some of the music, you feel, okay. You feel like,

• Speaker #1

  true,

• Speaker #0

  right? So that's why I love music.

• Speaker #1

  True So you can also follow Derek For his DJ work And You mix in clubs and stuff Or just for yourself Producing music

• Speaker #0

  I did a Underground music for More than My So many genres So basically I was a wrestling DJ In Oma Which is I don't know Do you know it or not Because It's actually One of the most famous Underground music Like club Okay Rather than The big God. EDM, lightclub, we are very different Because I think we like something different Just like so many somehow they get they can create That kind of like personality Like you have wine selection But at the same time I get my music selection as well Which is similar We have my own philosophy We have my own music selection and wine selection Why not?

• Speaker #1

  True

• Speaker #0

  Yeah

• Speaker #1

  Derek I have three last questions as a conclusion for this interview the first thing is do you have a book that you would recommend to me about wine the best thing if you somehow it's kind of boring for most of people but

• Speaker #0

  I would like to recommend you to read if you like how to make wine or even understanding the physical identification I always recommend Wine Silence from Jimmy Goode he's my good friend so basically It's pretty interesting to understand it, especially when you go into the vineyard and you see all the vines. And if you don't have the knowledge, you don't know what is that. Is it what is guillotine? What is cotton? You don't even know. And then how can they manage the plumbing or even blah, blah, blah. And then if you understand how they make wine, because a winemaker or even grower, they spend their whole year for... Only one harvest Only you know One batch And that's it If the vintage is bad You have nothing Yeah it's the end Right It's like you have false You have hail You're done Right But if you're understanding How they make wine It's more interesting But I like that

• Speaker #1

  Nice Do you have a recent tasting That you loved?

• Speaker #0

  Tasting I Really like a bottle Of Italian wine I know I know Most of people Don't say French wine But you know I just come back From Barono Okay Okay. But basically I tried that Baono is Giuseppe Mascanaro 1961 from Nas Two Week in Hong Kong With one of my best friend's birthday Which is incredible condition 1961 is an absolutely legendary vintage in Baono And the condition of the wine is absolutely amazing yeah

• Speaker #1

  I would imagine that this is absolutely incredible yeah and finally who is the next person I should interview

• Speaker #0

  I always because I was in Italy with him I think it's I would like to recommend Charish Charish Ho from Zest Hospitality they also own Hasenku a lot of very good restaurants Ring a lot of star restaurants from him very

• Speaker #1

  lovely guy to have an interview with him so he's also studied for his master's of many exams as well so good guy from hong kong amazing we'll we'll definitely do it uh thank you very much derek it was a it was a very nice interview uh for people watching it i hope you enjoyed this interview as well if you liked it don't forget to share it to subscribe to send this interview to a few friends and to go have a drink to talk about it. I think it would be a nice conclusion to this episode. Derek, thank you so much. Thank you. And see you soon.

• Speaker #0

  Thank you. Amazing. Perfect.