Transcription

• Speaker #0

  Okay, that's perfect. Hi, Nathalie.

• Speaker #1

  Hi, good morning.

• Speaker #0

  Thank you very much for being with me today. I'm super happy to record this podcast with you.

• Speaker #1

  Oh, thanks for having me.

• Speaker #0

  So actually, the story of having you in this podcast is pretty cool. I need to thank Olivier for that. I know he's listening to the podcast sometimes. A few years ago, I interviewed Laurent Delaunay in Burgundy. And I just connected with Olivier who is in Shanghai. He's responsible for Asia. And when we arrived in Hong Kong, I just like sent him, you know, a message saying, hi, who should I meet in Hong Kong? And he immediately told me, you should go see Nathalie. Oh,

• Speaker #1

  so kind of him.

• Speaker #0

  So it's great that we have this opportunity. Obviously, we'll talk about a lot of things today. You have definitely a wonderful vision of the wine business here in Hong Kong and in Asia in general. But first, can you start by introducing yourself?

• Speaker #1

  Absolutely. I just want to start off by thanking you for having me on the podcast. And you have been doing such a fantastic job in growing this little platform. So congratulations on that. For me, my name is Natalie Wan. I'm the founder and editor of Vinojoy News, a media platform focused on reporting on what's happening in the wine industry in China, Hong Kong and rest of Asia. I created the platform in... 2019 in the middle of 2019 right before the pandemic so it's amazing actually for me to actually think wow it's been six years already um uh yeah so that's me in a nutshell how did you how did you came to creating this platform oh it was completely pure out of frustration i mean there's no better words to say it um because um um i joined the wine industry in 2015 first starting working for James Suckling, the wine critic, and then later working for drinks business in Hong Kong as their managing editor for Asia, covering the wine and spirits industry across Asia. And at the time, China market was booming, but the coverage and the information about the market is so limited. And I was so frustrated that we don't have a platform dedicated to... reporting on this market like China, Hong Kong, rest of Asia, mostly because of language limitation. We do have some coverage locally, but unfortunately it's either in Chinese or in Korean or in Japanese. So I thought we need an English platform to sort of get the messaging, get the stories out. So anyone who is interested in this part of the market can find a platform to get all the information that they want.

• Speaker #0

  And so... So you joined James Suckling in 2016?

• Speaker #1

  2015.

• Speaker #0

  2015. Yeah. Before that, you were already working in the wine industry?

• Speaker #1

  No, I actually thought before that I was working in news, reporting and writing on China politics. At the time, I was with Reuters, actually in Hong Kong Bureau as well. Later, I joined Lifestyle magazine and covering jewelry and James Stone trade. So wine is something completely different and new to me. And I, to be honest, I wasn't even a wine drinker before that. So there was something I quickly discovered and fell in love with.

• Speaker #0

  It's funny because in the podcast, we also had Jane Hansen coming. And she has kind of a similar story on this side is that basically she was a journalist. So writing about news and then found in like writing. about wines and then never left the wine industry and now she's you know one of the most influential critics in the world.

• Speaker #1

  Amazing now she's really the authority of Bordeaux.

• Speaker #0

  Exactly so that's pretty fun how people come to wine by accident and actually stay in the wine industry.

• Speaker #1

  For me the story is even funnier because I remember I started working for James and it was at the time he was doing great wines of the world event and so there was a lot of tasting and dinners and drinking. And because I never drank that amount of wine in my life, so the first week after working for him, my body just reacted violently. I have like rashes breaking out like everywhere. And I thought to myself, my God, I got to quit. I can't do this. And then I talked to James. I'm like, oh, James, I think I have to resign. I just can't do it. My body can't accommodate. And then he's the one telling me, oh, you need to, you know, pace yourself, slow down.

• Speaker #0

  build up your tolerance and you know don't just binge on it that really turned out to be a good piece of advice um how was it uh how was your so your first week at james circling must have been like exhilarating doing all these wine tastings what did you learn with uh with james circling i think you know it just is um even looking back i think one of the things i learned most from james is his work ethics

• Speaker #1

  It really, really works hard. And I think that's very meaningful for me when I started the company. I just looking at how he did it because he felt a tremendous sense of pressure and also a tremendous sense of responsibility as well to build the company and grow the company because it's his name on the company, jameslacklin.com. Seeing him back then, we were working from his apartment on Old Peak Road. So, you know, every day I go there at 8 a.m., he's already up by two hours, like answering emails and doing all those things. You can see really his work ethics. He works very hard at what he's doing. So I think that's something I definitely respect and admire.

• Speaker #0

  And how was the wine education there? So I guess you... Like James Suckling is known for tasting a lot of wines, really amounts and different numbers of wine. But were you like specialized on one region? Were you trying to taste everything? Did you have a method?

• Speaker #1

  I wasn't really like tasting to review any of those wines, but definitely working for James, you had the opportunity to, you know, to have the access to sorts of so many different types of wines. It was very open-minded and very encouraging for you to try different things, discover your palate. So I think that was really good. And for me, you know, as someone who never really drank wine before, and having that accessibility and, you know, like to taste so many different things, and it was just so exciting and exhilarating. And that was sort of first time actually tasting great wines and discovering interesting varietals and, you know, and fine wine as well. So that was really fun.

• Speaker #0

  And there, so you were not reviewing wines, but you were more in charge of editors, editors' work, doing research, doing...

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, more on the content side. Okay.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. Okay, and mainly written content. Okay. So then you told me you moved to another media. Which one was it? I didn't wrote it.

• Speaker #1

  So after that, I moved to the drinks business, which is a UK-based media, sort of covering anything related to alcoholic beverage. Yeah. So I was their managing editor in Hong Kong, based here as well. Okay. Yeah, we had a small team back then.

• Speaker #0

  Okay. And must have been like kind of the same atmosphere, maybe a bit less tasting. Yes,

• Speaker #1

  definitely less tasting. And it was fun because with James, you definitely are reviewing about the wine. It's wine criticism. It's a different arena of journalism. With drinks business, it's very much sort of hard hitting news reporting. So you get to see a different side about wine writing, essentially. So that was really fun. And I definitely enjoy that a little bit more because my training as a journalist, that's more in line with wine. what I was educated about, what I was trained for. So I really enjoyed that job too.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, I guess it must have been also super interesting at that time to transition to really economic business side of things.

• Speaker #1

  Exactly. So it's really transitioned me from just tasting wine to really understanding the business of wine, like the industry of wine. economics, you know, how wine is sold, on-trade dynamics, consumer dynamics. So that, yeah, that really is quite a good experience for me.

• Speaker #0

  And so just after that, you decide to actually quit and go back to your apartment and do what James Stuckling was doing, which is basically working super hard from scratch.

• Speaker #1

  With no funding, everything, you know, comes straight out of my own pocket, no investment whatsoever. But the China was just so convinced, because think about it, 2019 was still when China's market was booming. It was coming off from a peak, but still, that was really the golden days of China. And also Hong Kong and Asia, I just feel like there's so many things happening on the ground, yet we're so limited by language and coverage as well, because nothing is really being reported or circled back to what's... On the producer side, because they read perhaps what's been written in drinks business, wine searcher. But the reporting on this part of the market is so scarce and limited. So I thought we really needed a platform to write diligently about what's happening on the ground. Talk to the key stakeholders, importers, you know, distributors, big wine companies, sommeliers on the ground to really get a sense of. that sort of reality back to producers to help them better understand the market, make better and informed decisions.

• Speaker #0

  So what is your first day like? Like you say, okay, we create Vinojoy. What's happening after that?

• Speaker #1

  Oh my God. I don't think like for three months I left my apartment. It was just myself. And I was just like writing all sorts of news and really trying to set up the business as well. I figured it out financially too. because I don't have any like investment or financial backing. So it was all come from my personal savings. I'm like, oh my God, how do I make this a viable business as well? Like at the same time, it's a new platform. Like you don't have the audience yet. So it's really like I need to drive and grow content to build that readership. So that was my priority number one. Priority number two is I really, the financial aspects, like how do I sustain this? You know?

• Speaker #0

  And so how did you, like, what is the business model behind social media? How did you find a balance?

• Speaker #1

  So at the beginning, and it was very traditional business media, so it's a lot of media partnership. And then luckily, we're able to grow our readership quite quickly, like within the first year, we're already established. We have the sort of web traffic, the people on the newsletter. So we're able to use that data as leverage and talk to different media groups, like also wine regions to say, guys, look, if you want to come look for China or Asia, we can be as a platform to help you amplify that sort of messaging and visibility. So we use that to attract advertisers. So it was very traditional, so like relying on advertisers first.

• Speaker #0

  And so the way you were selling it was like cost.

• Speaker #1

  per thousand of views or that type of things or it was more like one of uh so it depends like we had early one of the sort of the supporters for us is links concept it's a big so leading wine porter here in hong kong specializing on trade they really believed in what i was doing at the time and then they believed in me and then invested in long-term sort of partnership and of course there are some other sort of organizations they just do one-off because I would do that too, because it's a new platform. We don't know what the heck she's doing. She could be mad. And then we're just like burying money and wasting money. So a lot of the first time advertisers with us really just tried it off first time to see the impact and the effects coming from this partnership. And luckily, a lot of them actually stayed with us and continue to invest. So I'm really grateful for that.

• Speaker #0

  And did your business model evolve?

• Speaker #1

  through all this because so yeah i guess relying on advertising is okay for a beginning but yeah exactly so really that's something even for me as someone i see myself more like a publisher now really something that i um i'm thinking quite a lot about so the you know there are pros and cons of relying on advertising but a lot of times the cons is like how much freedom that you will have in doing the stories you want to do especially for us i see the platform as really like Bloomberg of news for the wine industry because you know at the end of the day you have to think about like you are responsible and honest to your readers first can't be too reliant on your advertisers so we really um two years ago we launched our subscription so people can pay to get behind the paywall content to have a little bit in-depth and feature stories on what we're doing and another thing that we um launched last year is to start to sell intelligence report. So the two reports that we launched so far is China's top 100 importers, because after the pandemic, the market has changed drastically. It's a seismic shift. So the numbers of importers who exited the market is huge. And for a lot of producers, not being able to travel to China, not being able to make the connections, and the fact so many company's folded business. People don't know, like, who should I talk to now? Who are the ones still operating in China? So we came up with this report. Essentially, it's a roadmap and a guidebook on who are the key ones, the reliable ones still operating in China with the company profile, detailed contact information. And then we did the same for Asia, the Asia's top 50 wine porters. So listing out all the key importers operating in Japan, Korea, China, Hong Kong, Indonesia. India, even Thailand. So again, it's offering a roadmap for producers. Maybe they don't have the resources yet to hire a full-time person on the ground to do all those things. They don't know where to go to find research and do those kinds of things. So those offer them, you know, like a guidebook, resources to look, okay, those are the ones in the market. I can start researching and making contact with them, see, gauge the level of interest and then assess. whether we can make some in non-term investment in the market and do things like that.

• Speaker #0

  for people listening or viewing this episode we'll put the link in the description obviously you know so our traditional audience in France maybe now is changing because we you know we transitioned the content in English and stuff but it was we had a lot of winemakers actually so if the Asian market is important I guess it's important but if you don't have the resources or if you want to look into it we'll put the link in the description right below this episode. So this is about your business model. So advertisement, subscription, intelligence. And do you do also a bit of consulting?

• Speaker #1

  No, not really. We're not doing that. So only a little bit thing that we're doing is social media for wineries who are interested in China. You know, social media in China is so vastly different from the social media we know. We do handle and manage for a few clients on social media, help them do strategies and content posting for WeChat, Red Note, Xiao Gong Shu. So that's something we do and something that I'm quite curious to learn more as well.

• Speaker #0

  So you can soon find me on Xiao Gong Shu. Oh, great.

• Speaker #1

  See, that's the code to crack the Chinese market. If you really want to reach the audience, you have to be on those platforms. One of the early even misconceptions they have from wineries is like, oh, you know, if we do this, I can just recycle whatever contents we posted for Facebook or for China. Obviously, it doesn't work. Like the voice, the language, the materials, the messaging they're trying to convey, you have to really localize and adapt for the audience.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, absolutely. Like the, you know, it's something pretty funny in France, because this is something I realized is that we have super low contact. and vision over what's really happening in China or even in Asia in general, but in China mainly. Because so the only thing that we have is basically the news, but like the official news from newspapers in France, like from TV or whatever. But what I mean by that is that we don't share any social media platforms, or very little. Like actually the number of Chinese people, actually on instagram that i can check their profile and stuff oh very limited it's super limited and and so i don't see the real life in china when i'm in in europe and yeah like coming here uh so now i have a xiao wangchu so i see the aesthetic that is completely different than what we have on instagram in europe the same we were in chen gen i think one month ago or something like that is definitely not what I was expecting you know and like yeah You have all this shift to do. And for people trying to, I guess, for people trying to import wine here or trying to position their wine in Asia, it's super important either to come. Absolutely. The best, at least to come and to also try to be more informed, check the social media platforms, all that type of things, because it's really, really different.

• Speaker #1

  Oh, absolutely. I can't agree more. I think. For anyone, anyone who is interested in this market, it's so important to come here. Whatever you read in the news, it's like I always tell people, it's like reading your, you know, x-ray imaging. You know, you see the skeletons, bones there, and that's it. But you coming here to be in the market, making that contact with the people here and talking to them. It's like putting the flesh and blood into it. And then a human being comes to life, right? So that makes a huge difference.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, absolutely. And we are going to Shanghai in three weeks for tasting there and meeting people as well. And I hope I will learn a lot during this trip, you know, because...

• Speaker #1

  Oh, great. Oh, let me know who you want to meet. I can put you in contact with some people.

• Speaker #0

  Absolutely. So let's get back to Vinojoy. So you created that in 2019. And so, as we told at the beginning, it's been six years. It was six years that were absolutely challenging for the Asian market. I guess for you, it's good because you have a lot of things to say and a lot of change in the market.

• Speaker #1

  A lot of times, it's like, for us, we're reporting news. So it's good or bad. We have to report it. And then one of the complaints we consistently get from even expo managers in Asia and China is, why do you always write about negative stories? but I I This is what's happening on the ground. If people think about it, if we only write positive stories, oh my God, China market is so great, but all the data, the information we get is saying otherwise, imagine a winery or even wine association or government pumping so much money into the market, and then nothing in return. I would be misleading people. So people are like, oh, wait, there are so many negative stories.

• Speaker #0

  So tell us a bit about how the market evolved. I've heard that there was pre-COVID and post-COVID. People are drinking less in restaurants, wearing more Chinese wines. But what is your view on this?

• Speaker #1

  Oh, it's really things have changed so much. Pre-pandemic, China was having the booming days. 2017, 2018, that was really the golden years of China. I remember... AT, we have an expo in Hong Kong, and at the time, they actually had a report with the IWSR. They're projecting at this growth rate, China is going to overtake France as the second biggest wine market, only behind the U.S. by 2021. Of course, that never happened with the pandemic, with the economic slowdown that really has taken a toll on the industry. And most recently, even coming after the pandemic, the market is still recovering. Australian wines are coming back. But now the government is actually restricting alcohol anywhere, like government meals or any kind of official banquets. So it's really putting a dam on the alcoholic beverage industry to the extent people are scared of going out to restaurants or being seen drinking alcohol. So that's something that we have to sort of... come to terms with.

• Speaker #0

  It's like a public health view?

• Speaker #1

  It's actually the government just clamping down on it because before there was a lot of corruption. And the booming days of wine, people were giving Lafayette 82 as a gift, you know, to different officials. Then they had the anti-corruption drive in 2012. And that really shaved off a lot of the fine wine sales, particularly from border layers. and I Then coming after that is the slow recovery and the market gradually was booming. And then came the pandemic. Everything was shut off. And also they launched anti-dumping tariff investigation into Australian wines. So at the time, Australia was China's biggest wine supplier, overtaking France. And that was taken out of the equation. So they were essentially looking at a market that got halved by size starting from the pandemic. And now Australian wines are back after the tariffs been lifted last year. But then again, the alcohol ban, it's having a lot of damages to the industry. So it's very challenging.

• Speaker #0

  So you can definitely corrupt me with wine for people who are listening. Everything that I can eat or drink, it's not really corruption because it disappears. So that works. It's interesting because, so a few things that come to mind when you say that. The first thing is that coming from Europe, we tend to be super focused on the wines that we produce in France. Or from the wines that are super close to us. Like, you know, Italy, a bit of Spain, but that's it. Like the vision that we can have about wine in France is actually kind of restricting. Which is nice because we have beautiful wines. Yeah,

• Speaker #1

  we have so many people.

• Speaker #0

  good wines yeah there are so many good wines in france that why would you look elsewhere but the the uh the odd reality of a market is that when you arrive in hong kong actually there are good wines from all over the world and so as you said the australian wines were a big part of imports here in in hong kong and in china in general and i guess it's a competition between all the regions trying to position themselves yeah hong kong is an exception though you know okay

• Speaker #1

  Because with other different Asian markets like Japan, Korea, Chilean wines are quite strong, French wine, of course, quite strong. Hong Kong is really an outliner in the fact it's still so loyal to French wines, despite the fact it's wine for, you know, tariff-free, tax-free. If we look at French wines alone, it's like 70% of the market share by value, just looking at the imported wines here in Hong Kong. And the... Average price of French wine is also the highest in Hong Kong, across Asia. It's about like 50 US dollars per liter for average price. Hong Kong is really a premium. Yeah,

• Speaker #0

  which is already super premium.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, and if you look at the Bourgogne's export data to Hong Kong, you can see a Guangzhou premium cool all coming here. So it's a really premium market. China, they used to have heavy reliance on French wines. but now it has shifted. French wine, I would say the market share is about 35% has dropped quite a lot.

• Speaker #0

  It may be explained because there are a lot of French people in Hong Kong, a lot of French restaurants as well. So maybe it drives also consumption on this. So this was the first thing and competition between regions, which is super interesting. But you were also talking about all the different markets in Asia. And I guess maybe you can tell me a bit more about this. but I guess that the Thailand, Vietnam even Japanese market are completely different from... And like sometimes we see Asia as one big block, you know, coming from Europe or the US. We're like, yeah, this is Asia. But actually Asia is kind of big and super different.

• Speaker #1

  Exactly. So like you have North Asia, like Japan, Korea, the very developed and mature markets, very much in the sense as London or New York, Hong Kong, same group as well. And then you have Southeast Asia, which has like... So many different other countries, Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam, Thailand, each one speaks a different language as well. So the dynamics and each one has different restrictions in terms of alcohol as well. Thailand is very liberal, open about alcohol, whereas you have Vietnam is actually trying to put more taxes on alcohol to rein in the consumption. So different altitudes as well towards alcohol and drinking in general, completely different.

• Speaker #0

  And do you have a... Do the work that you do also bring to light market preferences? Or, you know, maybe Thailand prefers, I don't know, like Loire Valley or thing. Do you see that type of thing?

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, that's interesting. We didn't notice a particular market's preference. But one thing we did notice is that actually across Asia now, it's the growth of white wine. And it's reflected in the imports data, you can see. for Thailand for Korea, for Japan, for China, you definitely see the growth of New Zealand and Germany. Okay. And those two categories, invariably, it's white wine dominated. So you're seeing that growth across the board, which is something really interesting.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, it's super interesting because maybe it also shows more market maturity in terms of taste. Maybe you, like, red wine is a bit the thing that you drink. Yeah. by default but when you start being interesting wine you also like want to go a bit deep and being like okay maybe this white wine and stuff yeah and i also believe that my belief is uh with the food that we have uh white wine is absolutely uh yeah it's

• Speaker #1

  more food friendly for food you know generally in this part of the market and yeah yeah and also i think um i can't remember the scientist's name but someone actually came up with the idea first with global warming Okay. um white wine is actually going to see more growth because it's getting hotter and hotter you don't want to drink a big jammy red anymore you want something crispy lively you know so that sort of explains that maybe as why white wine is growing and it's not just really growing in this part of the world i think white wine globally it's trending up too yeah absolutely you know it's fun uh we actually did a piece

• Speaker #0

  of content i think it was like one month ago or something Yeah.

• Speaker #1

  temperatures in i think it was in london it was like 25 degrees celsius in london or something like that and instantly you could see a rosé boom can imagine it was waitrose or something some some other super outlet they actually said there's a rosé index so temperature comes to this point and rosé cells is booming maybe

• Speaker #0

  we'll see that pretty soon in hong kong okay so um So this is the trends in terms of market repartitions. Do you see, I think one question is interesting is, what is the, how can I say, what is the like generational drive around wine?

• Speaker #1

  That's something, yeah, that's something I think.

• Speaker #0

  That's a hot topic. Like everyone is talking about it. And especially Gen Z, younger consumers are not drinking wine. They're falling out of love with wine. And boomers are not drinking enough. And young consumers just lost interest. And that's something I get asked a lot as well. Like, what's it like in Asia? And, you know, there's no simple answer to it. It's quite complicated. And, you know, one... impression that I have, at least in China, is that young generations, they do tend to favor wine slightly because the older generation in China, they grow up drinking baijiu. So when the young ones come into the scene and they want something to distinguish themselves, you know, find something that's cool, they actually go for wine. But that's my impression. But again, on the ground, reality is so complicated. Two months ago, I was giving a lecture at City University here in Hong Kong. And then it's a classroom of 20-something journalists, again, studying Hong Kong. And I was talking about wine. At the end of it, I was asking them, so, guys, how many of you guys drink wine on a regular basis? None raised their hand. I'm like, what? What is going on? What's wrong, guys? Like, why are you not drinking wine? this thing. They have so much pressure in finding a job, securing that kind of stability in life and really at the start of their career. Those people, kids are so responsible nowadays. They don't go out partying. They don't go out clubbing. A little bit free time they have, they do something they're interested in. And if they go out, they do go out with friends. They choose, you know, cocktails. And that's it. Wine is something that really... they really don't gravitate towards it. So that's something like, wow, this is really a complicated picture. Maybe it's related to the fact that the young generation are more responsible, more risk-averse and has more like jaw pressure as well. So they're not drinking at this stage.

• Speaker #1

  So it's fun because it's also the same perspective that we have in Europe. You can see younger generation drinking less and less. I don't know if it's a problem, but for the wine industry, it's a problem.

• Speaker #0

  Yes, it's definitely a problem. I think, yeah, it's definitely a problem. So one of the things we're trying to do, it's at the very early stage, is to rally support from different wine associations. And then we want to sort of really start and commission a comprehensive study survey towards Gen Z in China to give that really, you know, realistic sort of picture of. their altitude, their relationship with wine, and to offer that kind of insights. Yeah, so that's something we're trying to do.

• Speaker #1

  So this is a study that you're launching? Oh, wow. It must be super. Like the methodology around that, going to survey Gen Z in China, it must be a lot of work.

• Speaker #0

  And then we have to figure out, like, what are the cities? We have to budget first-tier cities and second-tier cities and third-tier cities and spread out the samples. So we're still working that out. and you

• Speaker #1

  talking to different agencies on the ground who can do that for us yeah and the results uh would be amazing super curious of uh what's happening um how do you source the your news um there's a question i had because you know like for me so we can say that we are building a media yeah but it's um it's a media that is not relying on hot news yeah you know that's good yeah we rely mostly on evergreen content about stories about

• Speaker #0

  people and like uh showing the the things but uh like when i go to your website i see like all these news that are new so like really uh yeah absolutely it's a very demanding job because it's a news website so we have to stay on top of you know what's happening really to have the pulse of the market so a lot of times we're just really like sourcing monitoring news across different Chinese language platforms to see what's happening. And also we have a great pool of contacts in China. So anything is happening, some rumors or some tips coming in. So we stay on it and do check and verify and do stories like that as well. And then there are some stories that feature stories and that requires more time. So we can just sit on it and plan for it like two or three weeks. And it has more sort of levity towards that kind of story. So it's a combination of really... having those kind of fast-paced story, like breaking stories, something happened, and then developing the feature stories, in-depth reports as well.

• Speaker #1

  How many are you in the team right now?

• Speaker #0

  Right now, we have four people. Okay,

• Speaker #1

  wow.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah. Actually, one in Chengdu, he's full-time with us doing the reporting, and one in Shenzhen who's actually with us and then looking after social media. And we had one girl working actually in India doing the sales lead, but unfortunately, she's been sick for like three months, so we have to look for someone else.

• Speaker #1

  So if you're in India and want to work, I'm not sure it's my audience yet, but we never know. Yeah. Okay, so, but you already spread the team between China and India. You didn't want to have a physical team here in Hong Kong?

• Speaker #0

  Hong Kong, it's just me. Okay. Yeah, it's just me.

• Speaker #1

  Okay. And how do you manage to...

• Speaker #0

  Also, it's just really remote working. So we were doing that way before the pandemic, right? And it was just... First of all, you have to establish rules and principles because a lot of times, even for myself, it's a discipline you have to build on. When you're working by yourself, working from home, even though we converted a room to a study and then you could get so many distractions. You just have to have discipline, like in what you do, priorities for the day. You have to just check those things off the day. And then sometimes it's too much. Like my son today, this morning, had some, you know, at the school and vomited and not feeling well to get him back. about the You know, the time lost, you have to compensate with something else. And, you know, you have to carve out a little bit of time, go to a clubhouse, the meeting room, finish your thing, like finish all the emails and things like that. So it's the same kind of regimen. I have to instruct my team, even though it's a small team, but everybody has to follow that. Like you can be flexible with your work hours, but you have to get your job done, what you're supposed to do. Like, I don't care if it's 10 p.m. or something, but you have to get your things done for the day to be able to sign off. So it's building that discipline. I think that's quite important.

• Speaker #1

  Do you get... Oh, sorry.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, but sometimes you're right. Absolutely right. You get people who just really want to go to your office, sit down, do that. But yeah, that's good too. But it's just not something that probably works best for us. You have to be highly disciplined.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, and if you want to have coverage of different regions in China, and China is actually so big, it's a bit random to say it, but... This is something I wasn't realizing before coming here, is that the distance between some cities is enormous.

• Speaker #0

  It's enormous.

• Speaker #1

  Everything is super well connected. You can use trains, planes, whatever. But Beijing is so far from Shenzhen or Shanghai is a completely different place.

• Speaker #0

  Absolutely.

• Speaker #1

  It's really distances that are...

• Speaker #0

  But for us, the one good thing is we have a network of... importers, distributors in our database, in our contact base. So anything happens. Right now, like we just call them up or send them a message on WeChat, you know, and then they can reply like instantly or when they can't. So it's very easy nowadays with the convenience of technology like WeChat to reach people.

• Speaker #1

  Absolutely. Do you have, you were talking about social media, but so your main platform is Vinojoy, so the website. Yeah. But do you also distribute? these stories on WeChat? Yeah,

• Speaker #0

  so the No Joy News is published in English for our international audience. And then we do have a WeChat account called YueLiaoJiu. So that's everything in there is Chinese, actually for our Chinese readers. So I come to realize that two different audiences for us, there are international readers who are reading our website, wanting to know what's going on in China, in Hong Kong, in Asia. And then we have the Chinese readers actually come to us. wanting to know what's going on with the rest of the world. They're very interested in like vintage rapport, something like wildfires that just happened in France, Southern France that's burning through. What's the impact, you know, on the vineyards? How it's going to affect production? So they actually are very keen to read those kind of stories and Diageo, what's going on, LVMH, to see what's the trend too.

• Speaker #1

  So you also publish news about Europe and rest of the world in WeChat? Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, in WeChat. So for our readers.

• Speaker #1

  So it's double the amount of work, actually,

• Speaker #0

  for you. Double the amount of work. So for us, because we have so many stories on the website, so not every story is published in Chinese, but stories at LVMH is laying off 1,200 people. So those stories we pick for WeChat because our readers will be interested to know that.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, makes sense. I think we already covered a lot of things. Marine, do you have questions for Nathalie? Always asking the people behind the camera. Yes, absolutely. If they have some news. But yeah, I think we've already covered a lot. I'm trying just to think for one minute if I had a...

• Speaker #0

  A Chinese wine.

• Speaker #1

  Ah, yeah. True.

• Speaker #0

  Thank you very much. Chinese wine. I remember.

• Speaker #1

  You're very interested in Chinese wine. So, you know, one of our focus is Chinese wines. It's the love of direct recording. Live recording is this. So, you know, when we arrived here, we're like, what can we do? Let's transition this content in English and everything. And then we're like, we have to discover Chinese wines and get into it. How have you seen Chinese wines?

• Speaker #0

  evolved over this last year and and uh in terms of quality but also in terms of like market share and penetration oh i think there's the the improvements they've made in chinese wines really leaps and bounds um like 10 years ago if you told me oh chinese wine is really the new hot thing i'd be like what what are you talking about what kind of drugs are you on but now when you go back visit places like Ningxia, Yunnan, you see so many exciting winemakers coming out and then making interesting stuff and quirky stuff. Because in the past, people were like, oh, Chinese wine is growing in Ningxia. It's at the border of China. So it's very restricting. Now you have more producers on the ground in Ningxia, like experimenting with so many different varietals, Italian varietals, Sangiovese, you know, and Malbec as well. making some interesting stuff, not just traditional like Bordeaux blend, you know, those big reds and the white wines coming up, Riesling, which is something very exciting, or skin-contacted Riesling as well. And then they have biodynamic wine producers making interesting Pinot Noir as well. And then you have some definitely like funky natural wine producers too in our region. So it's, they, I think they've really got. more confident about the tawa. Because in the past, when people keep telling them, you know, it's the Bordeaux of China, so everybody's resorted to making cabernet, a Bordeaux blend. I think the more they understand the regional characteristics, the climate, the soil, and then they're more confident in growing the varietals that's best suited for that piece of land. So that's very encouraging. I think that shows confidence in what they're doing too. And then Yunnan in southwestern part of China, which is adjacent to Tibet, and it's very high altitude. And they're making some interesting Burgundian style things. Everybody who's watching Chinese wine scene, you know, is telling me, my God, Yunnan is the upcoming area. You know, it's like the vineyards are like 2,500 above the sea level. And you get a plot of land that's like 0.5 hectare. But the making of that, like, you know, attending to those mines and craft of that, it's something fascinating and exciting to watch.

• Speaker #1

  So stay posted on this podcast. Subscribe to this podcast because I think we're going to go to Yunnan, I hope. I think beginning of October or around this time, like in October. Wow,

• Speaker #0

  that's amazing. That's the best time to visit. Yeah.

• Speaker #1

  I hope we'll have beautiful colors in the vines. And if it's like Burgundy in October, it will be absolutely wonderful. Oh,

• Speaker #0

  that would be really fun.

• Speaker #1

  So yeah, that would be super nice. The thing is, I don't know how you see it. Maybe it's different in Hong Kong than in the rest of Asia or in the rest of China. But the Chinese wines, we actually find super... Like, we don't find that much Chinese wines. in hong kong like i've been to a lot of not to a lot but to some restaurants and when i look at the the wine menu i still don't see it yeah yeah don't see them so i think black sheep they have one restaurant with chinese wines what sounds they have a few chinese wines uh um

• Speaker #0

  yeah but then a lot of the sort of top three mission style restaurants like um long king in four seasons they have Chinese wine, even actually Crystal Room by Chef Sophie Peek used to have a dedicated wine list, like a page full of Chinese wine. I think now they cut it to only just one Chinese wine there. But yeah, definitely, I think they're still trying to find their space on the wine list here. But it was a huge improvement already compared with the first year when I arrived in Hong Kong. There was nothing. Like you have some standard Chinese wine and Grace Vineyard was the only wine that you can find here. from Panti back then. And then that was on the list, but that was about it. Now, at least, they really expanded that sort of space for themselves.

• Speaker #1

  And maybe it's also different in China, like mainland China, maybe they consume more Chinese wines.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, absolutely. Even during these booming days of China's imported wine craze, a lot of consumers are still drinking Chinese wine. We don't have the exact ratio, but it's always about 30% imported wine, 70% domestic wine. Back then, it was dominated by two big players, Cheng Yu from Shandong and then Great Wall, which is state-owned. They're producing a lot of volume. And back then, a lot of those wines are used to stuff in supermarket shelves and banquets, whatever. But by any measure, they're not great wines. So now it's far more exciting when you go to even some Chinese supermarkets. You see, oh, wow, quite a few different references beyond those big names. and I think a lot of the boutique producers in China, they've done such an amazing job during the pandemic by gravitating, appealing to those young drinkers. The way they design the bottles, this is a long story, but you know, like in China, when they start to make wines, all the wineries look like a chateau in France. I mean, it's a lack of confidence as well. They felt like they have to emulate that kind of style to be able to sell the wine. And nowadays you have to be... go to a lot of the new wineries coming up in China, it's quintessentially Chinese. They are paying respect to their local culture, their local roots, and that translates to their design, the marketing stories as well. In the past, a lot of the Chongchong wines, it's like a French Chateau. This is not China. But now you look at a lot of producers like Silver Heights, Yan Dai's Xiaopu, and even like the Domende's Aroma. another sort of very interesting Baodanam producers in Ningxia. The labels are quintessentially Chinese and the design is storytelling. The really Chinese paying homage to... Yeah,

• Speaker #1

  they're embracing their culture. Yeah,

• Speaker #0

  they're really embracing that. I think they found an audience with the young consumers coming up who are confident in the quality of their local produce and resonate, most importantly, to that type of storytelling. Because wine, it's not... a it's not something that's naturally uh you know like gravitating towards young consumers it's a foreign product you know so they are trying to find a connection um to consumers and they are able to find that with this kind of smartly designed product so it's something quite encouraging it's actually something we absolutely have to do uh next

• Speaker #1

  time we're in china is to just enter a supermarket and and, you know, go to the wine section and just look at the bottles.

• Speaker #0

  Oh, you should. That would be quite interesting. You should go to, like, He Ma. You'll find some interesting things. But if you go to those really traditional, old-school, like, supermarkets, you'll find a Changchun Great Wall everywhere. But at supermarkets like Sam's Club and He Ma, they're really coming up with interesting wine selections.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, we don't really have that here in Hong Kong.

• Speaker #0

  Oh, yeah, Hong Kong, duh.

• Speaker #1

  Here we have Marketplace and Infusion.

• Speaker #0

  Marketplace. I don't think they sell any Chinese wine. No,

• Speaker #1

  no. I've looked into it. It's just a wine. So they have wines from a lot of different regions, like really a lot. US, French, Australia.

• Speaker #0

  Australia a lot. Chile too.

• Speaker #1

  Spain, Chile. Really wines from everywhere, but no Chinese.

• Speaker #0

  No Chinese. Yeah, you're right. It's very interesting.

• Speaker #1

  And Fusion is by Park and Shop, and it's kind of the same. They don't... I've not seen Chinese wines there.

• Speaker #0

  I think City is super. They have... One Chinese wine from Puchang in Xinjiang, Saporavi or Rastakely, naturally. But I could be wrong. They might have changed it,

• Speaker #1

  but that was the only one. Yeah, so it's a super low selection. So next time we're in China, we will go to the supermarket and report on what we see, what are the labels. Actually, it's super interesting. Natalie, thank you very much for this interview. It was a great to have you on the podcast. I think I have learned a lot of things and i hope that the people who are listening uh learned a lot of things as well but if they are still there i think it's the case so mission accomplished uh for them um i have three last questions that are kind of traditional in this podcast right uh the first thing is do you have a book recommendation it doesn't have to be related to wine right it's better if it's related to wine but but maybe we can we can say like related to wine or culture in Asia or something like that like what is one traditional thing that I should read if I you know want to embrace for me like one of the book that's completely not related to wine is

• Speaker #0

  Rivertown by Peter Hessler is one of my favorite writers and I wrote that book while he was serving in Peace Corps in Chongqing as a teacher so I wrote that about my hometown Chongqing so that's one book very close to me and I had an opportunity to actually interview Peter back when I was in university today. So definitely read that book. It's very interesting, beautifully written. And wine book, I have to say, Eric Asimov, How to Fall in Love with Wine. That's one book that I would recommend to people, especially people coming off without a wine background. It's very easy to read. Because one thing that challenged me, even with a lot of wine encyclopedia books, it's so pedantic. Sometimes I like that, but you have to have a mood for that. But I think that's an interesting book. Oh, and then Billionaire's Vinegar. Oh, I really enjoyed that.

• Speaker #1

  This one looks nice. It's in my reading list. Oh,

• Speaker #0

  it's so good. That's by Ben, I can't remember his last name. That's a really good book about wine fraud. The network, you know, like Thomas Jefferson Boto. In fact, see, that's something you could do. The fake Thomas Jefferson Boto, you can find that in Hong Kong. Parkview Hotel in Taitan. So that's owned by, you know, like a huge development, high-end condominium condo there. And then they actually have a public museum section where you can find a lot of Dali sculptures, Dali's work. He actually, he is the biggest Salvador Dali collector in Hong Kong, in Asia. And he was a... big wine collector too and he actually bought jefferson bottle from rodent stock can you imagine that and of course the bottles are fake so actually he put it on display so people had to see it you know you have to see it it's amazing definitely uh worth the the tour good piece of content actually so

• Speaker #1

  that's perfect we'll definitely do it um so thank you for these recommendations Did you have a recent tasting that was nice, like something you would recommend our audience to try?

• Speaker #0

  Ah, absolutely. I mean, some of the tastings that I had recently was in Burgundy, actually, on this trip, joining a rainy. And then they showed us the forgotten grape varieties used to be grown in Bourgogne. And then some of the winers are making wines out of it, like Melon Blanc, Cesar. So really quirky. great varieties I've never even heard about. And then, I mean, it's not a tasting, but one of the sort of most memorable bottles that I tried actually was when I visited Edouard Delonay, actually in New St. George. And then I was very lucky to have a tour with Laurent, and then they kindly invited me to stay for lunch. what Catherine cooked and Laurent shared with us a bottle of 1959 Lyssenjoer straight from his cellar. Oh, my goodness, that was amazing. It was kept in such pristine condition. And when you taste it, my goodness, it still has so much life and energy in it. And that was something I definitely will treasure and remember and still savor to this day.

• Speaker #1

  it's funny because I have kind of a similar memory with uh with long uh because we we went to interview him in burgundy in new saint george as well and it was such a good moment like the interview was so nice he was he was like really sharing his story with us you know and then we went to to his house for a tasting and at the end he was like do you want to taste a grand cru or do you want to taste a history and And so we chose history.

• Speaker #0

  History, of course.

• Speaker #1

  We chose history and so I think it was 1989 or something like that. Oh, no, no, no. It was really nice. And, you know, like the wine was great. I wouldn't say it was one of the best wine I ever tasted because, you know, time has passed and it was kind of a random Burgundy that we tasted. So, like the ability to age was not the best. but The moment that we had together, you know, this communion around wine. Yeah. Like just the sharing of it and stuff made it super special. I'm forever grateful that I met him because he's a really nice person. I love what he's doing in Burgundy, like his whole story and stuff. No,

• Speaker #0

  it's very inspiring, like the family history, how it's really rejuvenating that past history. It's very inspiring.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, absolutely. For me, he's one of the nicest person I've ever met in Burgundy in this podcast. I don't know if he's listening a lot. Yes,

• Speaker #0

  shout out to Laurent.

• Speaker #1

  If he is, shout out to Laurent, Catherine, and the whole family. And finally, who is the next person I should interview?

• Speaker #0

  Oh, wow. Since you are here in Hong Kong, you should definitely talk to some of the key characters in this city. Jeremy Stockman, he is the managing director of Wattens Wine, which is the biggest retailer in Hong Kong. You should talk to him. He has so many stories to share. And Greg from Crown Wine Cellar, who has sort of like the biggest storage facility. In Hong Kong, and it's in the military bunker too. And I think he was a former diplomat and now he's completely intoxicated with wine. He should be someone you talk to. And yeah, and some of the winemakers, I don't know. Have you talked to some Chinese winemakers yet?

• Speaker #1

  Not that much.

• Speaker #0

  Not yet. Okay, so I think Clara from Puchang Winery. She's actually living here in Hong Kong. She can be someone you can reach out to. Grace Veneer, Judy Chan. And she could be someone you can talk to as well. And some sommeliers too. Arnold from Watson's Wine and Johan from Kerry Wines. Yeah, they're interesting characters. Oh, you should talk to like Cabanza, Cristobal.

• Speaker #1

  Yeah, absolutely. Cristobal, we have to.

• Speaker #0

  Oh, you have to. He's like the godfather of natural wines here in Hong Kong. You should definitely talk to him.

• Speaker #1

  So we have a full list of our next shows. But yeah, if you can put us in relation with some of them.

• Speaker #0

  Absolutely. I'd be happy to.

• Speaker #1

  Absolutely. Nice. Thank you very much, Nathalie. Thank you for coming to the show.

• Speaker #0

  Oh, thank you for having me. It's really fun.

• Speaker #1

  I hope that you like this experience. For the people who are still here, thank you very much for following this interview, for listening until the end. If you like this interview, share it with friends. with two people who need to discover Chinese wines or who need to come to Hong Kong yeah

• Speaker #0

  Nathalie thank you very much thank you so much again see you soon Hong Kong perfect oh good that was really fun