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In this episode Emile Heskey is the guest and we go through some of the stories from his playing career.
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and Stolz gets forward, he's got Heskey on for the pass, England are in again, it's Emil Heskey
It's five Welcome to today's podcast where we're joined by legend Emil Heskey, it's an absolute pleasure to have you Emil Thank you, thank you for having me And Greg as well, thank you, Greg sorted all this out so gotta give him a shout out as well but Emil obviously we were just talking about youth football there and I want to just start with that because obviously you've got a couple of kids who are playing Man City are they both still at Man City?
No the ones the eldest ones on loan at Sheffield Wednesday and the younger ones now playing for Cologne in
Germany Nice and was that because we were obviously talking there about progression you
progression was that something you had an influence on as well yeah I think more down to the agent and then obviously the player himself my son wants to play football yeah and at some stage you've got to break in he's now going to be 19 soon the younger one so he needs to actually play regularly he doesn't want to be left out left behind and you've got players now who are 18 19 they've got 100 games under their belt yeah and you're there as a and there's an emerging talent and in the top ranking of this and the top ranking of that and you've got two yeah at some stage he's got a match up so and then the elder one he was on loan at
Sheffield Wednesday last season absolutely loved it fans were great tough season for them anyway but now went back and hopefully can try and push for promotion this year yeah that's I would agree like what we were talking about earlier just getting getting those guys first team games is always important But I want to start, obviously, with your career and where it all started. Leicester?
Yes.
Who was the manager at Leicester at that point? Was it Mark or Neil?
Mark McGee.
Mark McGee, jeez.
So when I made my debut, it was Mark McGee. Brian Little was there. I'd done a little bit of training with them then, because when I left school at 16, you joined YTS. did a little bit of training with the first team then, but then he left for Villa, I think it was, and then Mark McGee came in.
Yeah. Mark McGee, what was he like to work under?
Really good. Really good. Forward. So everything was geared to us looking good. You know, we did all our sessions just like forward sessions, so really good. But I played 18s football for the first, say, six months or something like that from when I left school at 16 and then joined with them.
Yeah. Um, and who, what was Neil Lennon and stuff at that? The club came later with,
with, um, Martin and Neil.
Yeah.
So let me try and think who was there at the time. David Lowe. Um, I'm not even sure. Ewan Roberts was, I think Ewan might've been there already. Colin Hill.
Matty Elliott there as well. No, they come later. Is that after as well? Yeah, they come later. Jesus Christ.
and big matt yell it was a yeah he's a beast proper beast yeah we had we had a strong strong backbone we did we had him spencer prior uh steve walsh uh joe taggart we had some beasts yeah and were you from leicester born and raised in leicester yeah came through the ranks and i started there at nine so it was like a center of excellence so you train on tuesday and thursday nights there's 50 kids running around and then Throughout the years, they whittle it down till you get to your 16s. And then that's the key moment of whether you're going to go into what was a YTS, which was, you know, it was a youth training.
Yeah.
So it was a government thing then. So you get £35 the first year and £42 something, £42.50 or something like that the second year. So I was playing my first year of football on £42.
50 Jesus Christ 100 it's weird because I got that like when I left school I was they said what do you want to be and I'm like a mechanic I just wanted a car a mechanic and I got 40 quid skill secret it was called yeah you get that so
it's kind of like it's like work experience isn't it yeah so it was so yeah first year was 35 it's interesting so I've just come off a tour with some of the lads and some of them are older and theirs was you Their second year was 35. The first year was 27 something. So then our first year was 35.
Yeah.
Next year was 42 something. Then the next one was 45.
And did you ever like see if you were getting a sniff of the first team or anything? Did it go up or were you still on that? No,
no, you were on that because that's my contract. And then I wasn't allowed to sign, because I got in at 17. So you weren't allowed to sign a pro contract until you were 18. That played my first full season, well, half a season on 40 to something.
Value for money back then, eh? And when you came into the team at that age, was there any particular senior guy that took you under the...
We had so many good ones. Walshie was the main one. Steve Walsh was our captain. He'd been there, Jesus, I was a kid when I was watching Walshie play. Do you know what I mean? So he'd been there for a long time. He was our captain, our talisman. He was the one that really looked after all the young lads. I still stayed in the youth changing rooms. I didn't really want to go into the changing rooms. You go from cleaning everyone's boots and then knocking on the door and have to wait for someone to come in. Then going in there, it didn't really sit well. So I just stayed with the youth team and that. But yeah, Walshie was the main one. He's the man around town.
Yeah. And obviously you've done well at Leicester and want to jump over to getting the move to Liverpool. How did that come about?
There's several different facets of it. So I think they'd been watching me for a while. There's a tournament called Keele. At Keele University, they used to have a tournament every year. where all the teams, a lot of the teams, Blackburn, Liverpool, all there. We went there as Leicester, obviously. Played there, and I think at 16, there was interest in me, and I'd played England in the 16s as well. But then I broke into Leicester, there was a lot of interest from Blackburn, et cetera. I broke into Leicester, and I was like, look, I want to play here. I was happy to play. And then England under 18s tournament, Euros in France. Gerald Houllier was the manager of France under 18s. Henri Trezeguet, Anelka, Darbol, Scalas, Silvestre, Cissé. We ended up going to West Ham for a little bit. Players like that playing. And it was me and Michael up front. And then he'd seen me there and that's when he said, all right, and when he comes, I'm the player that he wants to bring you. So I was available after that.
Not bad at all. And you mentioned Michael there. Obviously, he went to Liverpool and obviously formed that partnership with Michael there.
It's one of those partnerships that just clicks. Yeah. It just works. I can't explain why it works. It just works. Under-18s England, me and him together, everything just ticked really well. Some of the stuff that I'm not so good at, he's brilliant at. he's not so good at it and brilliant at it and it just it just worked so well worked well together from then under 18 Michael's two years younger than me so he's playing with my age group there then we went to the 21s I think Michael played one game at the 21s then went and jumped up into the first team and then it was just a progression really and
Michael as a as a player obviously done really really well but would you say he was one of the the best partners you ever had?
favourite partner yeah just worked really well everything understanding he's a brilliant player though yeah he's a great player so it helps you as well he takes a little bit of the burden off you as well who made who look good is the question he was he was outstanding and the thing is I don't think he gets the recognition that he should do from the
brilliance that he is yeah because I think a lot of people just see him as this kind of old injury prone guy like obviously in a lot of parts of his career when I'm like
No, Just carries games. The thing is with Michael, and people don't really, and I don't think he's even mentioned it, Michael would be wheeled out injured for us. Yeah. Go and score and then come off. Yeah, it's true. Yeah. Then you look, and we're all sitting here as ex-players and we creak when we get up and you can imagine how he's feeling now where he's put his body, what he's had to put his body through week in, week out to try and get results for a team that he loves.
And Obviously prior to going to Liverpool, was there other teams sniffing around as well?
There was quite a few. I had Roma, Dortmund, Villa, Spurs,
Chelsea. Not a bad amount.
I think it was a perfect move for him and for Liverpool.
I think it was a... So when I came through Leicester, the five years I played at Leicester I went to Wembley four times. Playoff final and three League Cup finals. So the next stage for me was, okay, I'm at a club that I'm, I'm raised. I can do more or less what I want.
Yeah.
Um, I need to figure out what is next. for me here or do I don't take that next step where I'm challenging for league titles I'm challenging for other other clubs Champions League football all this sort of all this sort of playing against the elite so the next step was that for me and I was what 22 it's interesting because everyone thought that I was like 26 27 when I joined I was 22 just turned 22 when I had when I'd left Leicester to go and join Liverpool still a young lad but I the next step for me was what did it look like challenging for league, winning FA Cup, going to the Champions League or UEFA Cup. Yeah. And going and challenging and winning that sort of stuff. What does it look like? How is it? What sort of football? What's the tempo? Playing every three to four days. There was one year where we played and I kid you not, we played something like Sunday, Tuesday, Friday, Sunday.
Yeah.
It was just so many games just crammed in and we talk about a lot of games now the season we won the treble we played 63 games 63
63 65 65 63,
65 games I played 59 games oh man which is the travelling yeah and the travelling is the worst to be fair you're going flying here and trying to come back and then you're not really sleeping well and then you're trying to take a sleeping tablet to make sure you get a good sleep and then you don't get your food that you want and stuff like that it's not easy and what was the you
If you were advising, obviously, a young guy, what's the difference of playing for a Leicester where you were the main man to go into a club like Liverpool? You know,
it's learning. It's all about learning. I was lucky because I played with a national team. So I'd come through Leicester's ranks where it's about fighting, it's about battling. You've got to chase that person. You've got to tackle there. You've got to run back. You've got to try and win ahead of there. That bodes you well when you go into a bigger team because you've got that fight about you, but then you've got to learn how to control the ball. You've got to learn how to pass it there. But I'd been with the national team.
Yeah.
So I learned that with the national team as well.
Yeah.
You can't be giving away the ball. You can't. You can't. You've got to hold up that ball. You've got to understand what runs to make, when to make the runs, when to hold it up, when to look in behind. All this stuff, you actually learn on the job. Yeah. You learn a lot on the job.
That's it. And were you at Liverpool when Emil joined?
One of my best mates.
Yeah.
It's funny because the first time when I came in, the old training ground I mean the old oh yeah yeah Melwood old Melwood we had a small gym you know and I used to go because Gerard he said to me oh you have to go to gym you need to be stronger and every time he mean was there you remember it's only him and me yeah
when you look at them old gyms it's just like one little round thing you know with the different stations and you're trying to push weights off that and you're looking at how big Liverpool is you're thinking what is this Then obviously we moved to the new Melwood.
New building was the key.
Yeah. Absolutely. It needed to be that.
It was the key to reach the success. But you're talking about the partnership with Michael. I mean, as a defender, you're facing the game. And for the fact we knew we would score goals with the lads because one was stronger, strong, hold the ball, you know, can destroy defender. The other one was smart, sharp. Yeah. So, I mean, it was unbelievable.
I think one thing as well, what we're losing a little bit within football now is the ability to use your body to hold the ball up. And what it means when you're holding the ball up for you.
The gimme time.
Yeah. If you keep playing the ball up to me and it keeps coming back, at some stage he's going to say, I'm not playing the ball to me no more. And then your whole vision of what the game looks like looks totally different.
Yeah.
So now we're losing that. Because we're usually playing with one up front and they don't really get involved now. We're playing with two. You have to work. You have to get across. You have to hold the ball up. You have to win a foul. Even winning a foul is brilliant because you can just...
You know who did that over the weekend? Sunderland.
Yeah.
They were losing 1-0 and Regis Lovie went two up front and they scored. This is where they had the penalty.
Yeah.
And of course, it's more difficult for the defenders, you know? And as a striker, you have to work hard a bit. Yeah. I think Gerard, we are...
I thought I had this in mind yeah to play you and Michael at front yeah but as well with that we changed it a little bit where defensive side one has to drop in so you make it a three in the midfield yeah and just leave the one up front just to shadow and now we changed it they do one up front but when they defend they go with two up front so yeah easier life but what what was who were you like as a manager for you I thought he was brilliant I thought tactically he was really really good you understanding the game. I'd gone from I don't know what it was like for you, but I'd gone from being at Leicester where we didn't really do much tactics. We had some really good players and it was about unity, fight, fight, fight, unity. Give the ball to Emil, he can run with the ball. Give it to Muzzi, he can chew a ball. Give it to Lenny, he can find that pass. Give it to Gopsy, he can cross the ball. That was what it was. So now learning about your position, learning about how we want to play. Don't give the ball away in these areas. Take risks in that area. I was taking risks everywhere.
Yeah.
But you learn a lot more and you sit there. When I first got to Liverpool, it was tough. I'd gone from no meeting, no team meetings, to sitting there, dark room, with this big screen, 45 minutes, going like this.
You were talking about that earlier as well.
But then you slowly, with the information coming in, you're slowly like, okay, yeah, what's next? We'd go to a point where I came through the youth team with Stuart Campbell. He was at Grimsby at the time and I'm watching. Us play Grimsby and I'm thinking, why are we going through, we're going through the substitutes.
Yep.
I'm like, I don't need to know anything about Grimsby. Just give me the ball, let me run it. But this is the mentality you need to, you need information.
Yeah. That said, we had a good conversation about that coming down, just the amount of data and everything.
It's a little bit too much now because again, you overload someone's brain with stuff and you take away the, this. spontaneity of just getting on the ball sometimes and doing something yeah you're telling them where to pass you're telling them what to do no what happened to just go and dribble in the ball putting your putting your body in the way of of you and uh of you and the player and then just going and dribbling yeah using your assets to your advantage we're losing that a little bit i think it will come back around obviously but we're losing that a little bit yeah no we
were talking about ai and tori bloom and you could like literally go emil hesky's last 200 games this is what he does that's what he does wrong and all that but like you say what happens to well I'll give you an example of that right so
Arsenal we play Arsenal at home what was it I got tackled went down the physio came on you know physio comes on you have to go on the side went on the side the ball the refs call me back on I come back on the ball comes straight to me I dribble the ball I'm going. take it on my left and score and what I noticed was they kept on showing me on my left but I'm fine with using my left it's not a problem they told they told them to show me on my left yeah but then I'd done that and scored yeah so
yeah there's only certain guys you can maybe say that to maybe like me I can't my left leg's only for standing on but the thing is
we all learn how to use it the more and more and I was I'd already I'd played left wing for most of the two seasons before anyway yeah so I'd learnt to just and I was always using my left foot anyway but they told you off the data he doesn't like using his left foot you can show him down left and I'm just I'm going to swing it anyway bang use that to your advantage but
obviously you were part of the treble winning team um good was that maybe your first or second season? First season. First season.
So I joined in March.
Yeah.
And then that was the first full season.
Treble winning season. I'm just curious. I always ask people this because I'm a big collector of football memorabilia. Do you still have all your medals?
My dad has most of them, my stuff. There's a really nice house in the Caribbean with loads of shirts and memorabilia.
Yeah. because you see the amount of guys I speak to and they're just like just gave it away to this guy and all that and you're like fuck my shirts I did
I need boots and stuff like that yeah but I've got I've got a couple of things there's two of them my dad's got them yeah my dad's got them I found my one from Villa we lost it in the final but I found that one my dad's got the other ones still got my England Germany shirt
I've got Xavi yeah so I've got a few shirts but not loads you end up giving a lot of stuff away like you're saying out of the all of the stuff you've collected over the years from other players who's the prized shirt or whatever you've got Rivaldo Barcelona yeah he's what a player
I lost it as well well I say I lost it I'm thinking where is that shirt I'm sure I've had that shirt and I'm thinking where is it I go to the Caribbean it's on the wall in my dance I didn't even know that he took it
Was your dad like a big football fan or was he just keeping that for you?
He likes football, yeah, he's a big football fan, but he just keeps it. Just, yeah, keeps it. Yeah. Now the boys are playing, they're all over the walls now.
And you're bombed out. You're just getting taken off. New generation. That's one. So, yeah, obviously...
played with Mike alone and stuff obviously if you look out there people say you probably didn't score enough goals would that be an unfair criticism of you because you've done a lot of work yeah it's not even about the work you find your own niche and you work with that we won trophies yeah there are a lot of people with 100-200 goals and not won a thing yeah we all laud them but not won a thing yeah I'd gone from I went to four six league cup finals yeah I went to the 97 them. 99, 2000, 2001, 2003, and I think 2010 or 2019. Finals, League Cup finals.
Yeah.
So I was winning stuff. Yeah. And for me, that was what it was about. Not necessarily about all this, oh, you look at my individual accolades, yes, it's great, but you're a team that needs to win something. When I first came to Liverpool, I didn't realise I hadn't won anything since 95.
Yeah.
bad winter three cup three league cup finals in that time and people might say oh league cup it's a final yeah it's a trophy it's a trophy yeah so for me it was about winning stuff I don't really feed into I must score 20 goals and I must do this and I must do that first season was brilliant yeah but you learn your own niche and where you where you fit within that ecosystem yeah I know I think too many people are critical of certain players like.
because I've got a brother-in-law that plays up the road and people, he's a big guy as well and he does well for the team but the fans are like, yeah, you fucking lazy bandit.
The thing is, who are you trying to, are you looking after the manager? Yeah. Or are you looking after everyone else? Yeah. The manager tells you what to do, you do. That's why I always step back with my sons and I look at them, what are they doing? Why are they doing this? I don't know what he's told them. So I can't criticise them. For all I know, and especially the eldest one,
when I speak to the coach they love him because he does exactly what they tell him to do and they absolutely love him and he gets played every single time and I'm thinking why don't you do this why don't you do that but I don't know what they've told him yeah so that's something you felt like even watching your kid you had to have some form of restraint yeah yeah I leave him it's not my career I've got to say because you see a lot of the parents at the side like if you do this and if you do that this is a mistake yeah
Because football as well, especially at that level, right? Football, kids football, it's supposed to be fun.
Yeah.
It's supposed to be laughing. It's supposed to be joking. It's supposed to be trying stuff. Not looking over, looking over and worried that he's not happy with you or something. It's supposed to be fun.
I thought you said something interesting about, you know, when we are playing for big clubs like Liverpool, it's all about winning.
Yeah.
You need to understand the fan that just won trophies at the end of the season.
Yeah.
End of. And the manager wants to win.
And he says that. It's a must. It's a must. You must win.
Yeah. Yeah. Just, just, just the, I remember when we had the chat, how many times Gerard really said to us, we have to win. Be a winner a week in, a week out. Because you're playing for Liverpool.
You never lose three in a row. No, never lose two in a row. Never lose three.
It's a good team.
And I've come from Leicester, we're going five or six.
He was really worried after the, after each international break.
yeah the tough ones because your head was coming from everywhere and your mentality's all over the place you were spanking where are you where are you oh god but just a little bit more on Liverpool when you joined who was the kind of main character in that dressing room because that was a dressing room probably Cara
Cara yeah even though he was young at the time because I came when he was 20 and he's the same age as me but he's a Scouse lad and Scouses are you Loud. Yeah. They're funny though. He was probably the main character. We didn't really have loads of...
Gary Mack?
No, but Gary...
In a different way.
Yeah. Gary was the senior figure that held everyone together. We were young lads and you could imagine we would... If you didn't control us, we'd be running all over the place.
Did you? Did he?
He was good. Them two were brilliant in the midfield.
Yeah.
I think Gary Mack was one of the best ones though, because as a senior player, you've got to control everyone. Yeah. I'm 20. I was 19 and a half. I was 22. Kara's 22. Michael's 19. Stevie's 18 at the time. Yeah. So you've got to control all these players and make sure they're pulling them in, not just running all over the place.
Yeah.
And he was brilliant. And he was at the front of all the running. So you're looking at him like 36 at the time. I'm like, I'm a 22 year old at the back. Yeah.
the old man is running it but everyone talks about Gary Mack at Liverpool amazing man dumb guy that we've had on the we've had a few Liverpool guys and his name comes up regularly and he's one that I would have never
thought like but this is the genius of
Gerald Houliard because 36 years old you're not going by 36 yeah he was smart signing yeah he knew exactly what we needed to bring everything together yeah but moving on to your England career obviously you had a phenomenal England career but winning your first cap for the first team was that when you were at Liverpool? Leicester Leicester you got a cap when you were at Leicester that's phenomenal as well what was it like
walking into that team because again you must have been overawed with that oh yeah yeah you are at first but like I we go back I'm lucky because I played at 16s so you understand what it means and the quality that you need in training in the games because I did it at 16s yep and then you do 18s 21s and anything so you understand when you go up to the big boys it's even quicker you you kid you not you could ring your shirt when you finish training that's the intensity that you're playing at every game every training session is harder than the games yep because everyone seems like they're trying to impress but no it was it was really good at first it's a bit daunting that you're going in and Ian Wright's sat there Andy Cole's sat there Shira's sat there you're like what what's this
And... I would have just walked out when I'm not getting a game out of these guys.
But it was a great experience to be around them and put yourself up against them and know you've always got to challenge yourself and that was my thing. I was always challenging myself okay, where do I fit within this? What can I show that's different to you? Played against Argentina and what's his name? The ex-Leeds manager. The one who used to sit on the cooler.
The old guy? Yes, sir.
Yeah, yeah. He was the manager of Argentina at the time. And it's funny because I was on the flight and a guy came up to me and said, oh, you got me sacked. I was like a part-time scout for the Argentina team, but I was doing ESPN as well. So I used to do ESPN, watch the Premier League, blah, blah. And he said that I was, Bielsa told him, what do you make a Hesky? He's supposed to be starting. He said, no, no, he won't start. It'll be Kevin Phillips, blah, because no no he's starting we've heard it's like no he's not good enough he's can't he can't run then within so i started and within 20 minutes they had to pull their captain off because you know back then i just used to run down the channels and just i just knocked the ball and run yeah and i was this size no one's gonna stop me and yeah just absolutely murdered them and then he said i'd never call me back again obviously you talk about your size uh and stuff like that Did you work? or were you just playing a lot I was naturally big if you see my family yeah yeah I was naturally big I was in the gym but I had I had to be careful in the gym because I could get too big yeah I had to be very specific in the gym with what I was doing but yeah I was in because I'd been in the gym from 14, 15 yeah working because my dad used to work in like a youth centre and I'd just go there play football and then go in the gym with everyone else as a kid you
so yeah I did a fair bit of gym work but my family are big both sides more my dad fair enough fair enough you can get away with it but we need to talk about the game you mentioned you've still got the jersey the 5-1 Germany game and you scored the 5th goal can you talk us through What that would be like, beating Germany 5-1. Well,
the build-up was tough because, again, we lost the last game at the Old Wembley. Did he score? Did the handman score a free kick? So it's the last game at the Old Wembley and you're losing to your rivals. Kevin Keegan decided to step down after the game.
Yeah, correct.
He says he can't do it anymore, blah, blah.
I remember this, yeah.
And then we go to their backyard. They hadn't lost in 50-plus games at home. And then they go 1-0 up as well. It's Sven's first, I think it's Sven's first competitive game. We go 1-0 down after seven minutes. Dave Seaman makes another save and it's like, could have been 2-0. I think we just scored, Sven was brilliant. Like Gerrard, very tactical, bring a board out and start moving all these pieces around. You're looking at it and you're saying, okay, I understand where I need to be. Give you the freedom when you're on the board to do whatever you want.
Yeah.
But when you're defensively, you need to be doing this, this, this, this, and this. I was like, fine. So we scored at key times. Michael scored, Stevie scored just before halftime. And you'll know.
There's times in the game where managers say, your focus has got to be 10-10, just before half-time and just after half-time. And we scored at them two times. We scored to make it 2-1, and they probably deserved to either be ahead or at least draw in. And we went in 2-1 up, come back after 3-1, finished.
So you scored the fifth goal. Where does that...
rank amongst your career highlights was that i think one of the biggest ones the reason i say that is it's it's it's a game that everyone knows yeah i go everywhere literally everywhere i had a one i've got so many good stories as well i had one kid i went to watch my son play and one kid sat in front of me and he after a half time he turned around said thank you for that game blah I'm looking at him thinking, howdy. It's a memory from when he was with his granddad.
Yeah.
Another one, him and his dad were watching the game. Went 1-0 down. His dad was out fuming. He didn't watch the game. He just stormed out and left. Didn't watch the game. Another one where a guy had a ticket and on the same day, he's supposed to be a groom at his brother's wedding.
Yeah.
He's like, what do I do? All these things. People have some wonderful stories, but it's a game that everyone remembers.
Yeah. And I'm just curious to your answer to this question. Obviously, you played with some amazing players. Who was your favourite England player to play with?
Michael.
Michael,
yeah, yeah, Michael. Favourite player, player?
Yeah.
Probably Stevie. Favourite forward, Michael.
Yeah.
But Wazza was close. Wazza was brilliant because... I know what he wants to do. He loves getting on the ball, Wayne Rooney.
Yeah.
Loves getting on the ball. So what my job is, create space for him to get on the ball.
Yeah.
So I make him runs to deter defenders from going into the number 10 spot.
Yeah.
To create space for him to go and get on it, turn and start dribbling and doing what he's doing.
Yeah.
And then I'm there to hold the ball up, knock it back to him and then let him play. He was, yeah, he was phenomenal as well.
He's one of my favourites. Michael won the Ballon d'Or.
Yeah. Oh, I was at Liverpool. Yeah.
You know why you want the Ballon d'Or also? Because of Emil Wark.
Yeah.
I'm pretty sure. Yeah, because he scored beautiful goals, but the movement you made for him.
Yeah, I think creating space. You understand? Yeah. That goes both ways as well. So I think for Michael, as long as you're working with him, he's going to be, if you're doing. You've got too many forwards, they work in separate, they don't work together.
Yeah.
I was all about working and I grew up in an environment where you've got to work together.
Yeah.
So my thing was, how do I gel with this player?
Yeah.
And that's how, and he was, again, he was a phenomenal player.
This year he was on fire.
Yeah, he was phenomenal.
Yeah. But would you say a lot of other guys now are just in it for themselves? Like, want to score more goals?
It's not just now. Or always? Yeah, it's been like that for, for, Forever, really. You've got some players who will lose a game. See, I've done my job, I've scored two.
Yeah.
You've lost a game.
Yeah.
That doesn't make sense in my head.
Yeah.
But it might be because I'm from an environment that is winning and losing is key. We could get relegated. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. It's all about fighting at Leicester. As you see what's happening there now. You need players who are ready to put it down and fight.
Yeah. No, I mean, we were talking about that result on the way down as well. They're getting beat 4-0 off Oxford. And you've still got a good squad there.
At home.
Yeah. That was a proper shocker.
You said they've got a good squad. They've got a lot of young players, which is needed.
Yeah.
But you need some... We're talking about Gary Mack.
Yeah.
You need senior players that can help them.
Yeah.
They're going to give you all, these kids. They're going to give you all. But at some stage, they might come up against it where they need someone else to... to help galvanise them and help them get through this game yeah
I haven't seen that yet when you're young you've got the legs yeah when you get older you think you know you think about the game yeah when you're young you don't think too much about this just want to play and show to the manager you can prove you're good enough to stay in the team yeah so I'm just curious see Leicester is the Thai guy still involved yes he's still there still the owners yeah I didn't know
there's a hell of a drop in it the thing is you overspend it comes back to haunt you yeah they should never have been relegated with the squad that they had they should never have been relegated yeah but then you are relegated and then then you've got to figure out how are we going to consolidate we cannot afford to keep paying these wages we can't afford to have these players just sitting around yeah so then you just you start slowly tearing the squad apart yeah bring young lads in which they have we've got some fantastic young lads to be fair we've sold some Trey Nyhoney's gone to Liverpool yeah Munger's gone to Man City he's now he's in Swansea Motsey just left he's gone to Man City as well you so they sold they actually are producing but none of them actually get to the first yeah but going back to the England thing yep you obviously played with some phenomenal players but if you had to pick because it's a question that comes up in every podcast
Stevie G Frank Lampard or Paul Scholes if you could only pick one Stevie
Stevie yeah yeah yeah Stevie but Scholes was brilliant Lamp as well Lamps as well they were all phenomenal players you can't take away from what they've all done yeah Scholes was brilliant Stevie because I played longer with him and at the end of the day he can take a game by the scruff of the neck on his own and change it I don't know if the others can do that on their own just take the ball and go and do something yeah they'll obviously need others to be contributing in that
Stevie just give him the ball let him do his thing manager wise you obviously work with various different managers who was you the best one that understood you the best
Martin O'Neill and Gerald Holier I can't I can't take away one if I'm honest with them two Martin gave me the the freedom to do what I was good at and what I wanted which was get the ball turn run with the ball I remember I remember I can't remember who he played but I remember getting the ball controlling it laying it back to Robbie Savage he took a touch and then gave it away managed to go to me i'm like what's that what's he having to go to me for and then come yeah what are you doing that for i'm like i just gave him the balls he says what is he gonna do that you can't i looked at him and just get the ball turn and run i went yeah you're right so and then the funny thing with with martin he didn't coach didn't do any of the coaching but man management had a group of lads that would run for a bit orphan yeah And that's what he's getting at Celtic now. He's given up the job, then he has to come back and galvanise him again, then give it up again, then come back and do it again. It's down to, there's a place for management, there's a place to get the players on your side. Then there's a place for coaches. Yeah. Coaching. Yeah. And understanding the tactics and all that. That's not him.
Yeah.
He's the other part of it.
Did O'Neill ever give the kind of fear factor? I don't know, Martin O'Neill, did he ever give people the fear factor?
He was horrible. He wasn't nice.
because he worked with Cluffy and stuff I would always imagine guys like Cluffy you would shit yourself you'd be like fuck no one wanted to ask him any questions no one wanted to go into his office all they wanted to do was keep him happy and once you kept him happy he'd keep you happy and
a lot of the time when you keep players happy what is it days off and stuff like that he was brilliant at that giving lads days off understanding what they needed for their families and stuff like that staff at the training ground Not one of them has a bad word to say about Martin.
Jeez.
No, understands when their birthday is, when their kid's birthday is. I'm talking about cleaners. I'm talking about chefs. I'm talking about all them people.
Yeah.
They all love him. But he was brilliant. And Gerald was similar. Gerald understood the one-on-one with the players.
Yeah.
Understood that. And then obviously tactically, he was a different level.
Did you ever have a bust up with any of those managers?
Martin.
Martin.
Yeah. But that was later on. Yeah. Aston Villa.
Yeah.
Yeah, it was later on. But yeah, when you get older, you've got your own way of saying stuff and portraying it. So yeah, it just wasn't, we didn't click. But he still picked me.
Yeah.
Yeah, he still picked me. I still wanted to run for a bit more for him. I have nothing bad to say about him.
I think if you are clearer as a manager, you're understanding. From the age to 20 to 24, you do what you want with the player.
Yeah.
From 24 to 28, the player show you, boss, you need me. Yeah. And after 29, 30 years old, this is where the player come back toward the manager, you know? Yeah. You know, it's nearly the end. Yeah. So it's, that's why, you know, if you're a good manager, if you understand this.
Martin was brilliant. Martin, we had a good, especially at Villa, we had a really, really good group. We just didn't have... It was that little bit that we just lacked. We were trying to break into the top four. We finished top six every year.
Yeah.
We're just slowly trying to break in.
After Liverpool, you went on to Birmingham. and obviously Wigan, Villa, Newcastle, Jets and Bolton I want to touch on onwards after Liverpool what made you decide to move on?
I'd been told by the then CEO that Cissé was coming in and I had to leave I said no, no, I'll fight for my place because the reality is I knew that I would have played the way that I play, you need a player like that because you would have been that old 26 yeah 26 but I was told no I won't play and then there becomes that point where you're like if I'm being told I'm not going to play what am I going to do just sit there and collect money yeah I said no no let me just go and play some football somewhere no disrespect to Birmingham but they came in Steve Bruce sat down with Steve Bruce in my house and he talked me through everything and I went there started well In the sense of, it was tough. Because I've gone from being with Stevie, being with these guys, who, football is football, but when you're in it, you realise who's top and who's level and who's just a footballer. I would think at Liverpool, you've got to play forward. You've got to wrap balls in, everything's got to be done quick and crisp. I'm making runs and no one's even looked up.
Yeah.
So, yeah. I'd gone from that where I'm getting Stevie G just wrapping balls into me. I've got to be alert and control it on the chest, on whatever, however I've got to control it. I've got to control it. To now, everyone's going side to side and I'm just stood there thinking, I'm making runs but no one's even looked up. So I had to adjust there. And then we'd gone from being, I think Birmingham's been up there now three, four seasons now. And I think they were trying to transition into something different.
Yeah.
Better. But it wasn't, we got a load of players in and it just didn't fit who we were. The best player was Damian Johnson who worked. And when you know, when your best player is like that, then you know all these other players that you're buying, they're not going to, they're not going to fit.
Yeah.
It just didn't fit. And then went on to Wigan, which was good actually. Wigan is a strange one because there's zero pressure. We had an amazing team. Valencia, Palacios, Mario Melchior, myself, Titus Bramble, Chris Kirkland. We had some good players. Mano Figueroa, we had some good, really, really good players and we did okay. But then it becomes a point where a bid will be put on the table and you're at a club that will just go. put another 50 grand on that put another 100 grand on that do you know what I mean so Valencia left Palacios left I left yeah it just started slowly started to take away the essence of what you got there nah I reckon they went through a period where I thought they wouldn't we wouldn't FA Cup at all yeah back to Villa would you always say was Roy Keane there as well no
I didn't know if Roy Keane was following him around at that point or not. No, I think that was a bit later.
But that was national team.
Yeah, that's right. I think
Paul Lambert brought in Roy Keane, I believe.
Yeah, that was it. But Villa going from Birmingham, Wigan, then you're going back to a big, big club like that. A big club again. Was that, again, a different expectation? Oh yeah,
100%. But I was ready for it again. Yeah. By the way, I forced my way back into the national team at Wigan. I think I was the first Wigan player to play for England.
Yep.
I know Kirky did it, but he was on loan from Liverpool at the time. So yeah, made my way back into the national team. So I played and then moved to Villa. Huge club. I'm from Leicester, so I know what the size of the club means and everything. But it was nice to go back into that environment where you're playing European football. Your expectation is super high.
Yeah.
The pressures of that. You live for that, to be honest. I know people say no, but you actually do live for that.
Yeah. And obviously, after that, you went to Bolton. What was that like as a club? Because they weren't... You're struggling. Yeah,
they were struggling at that point. So I was actually training at Blackburn. Paul Robinson got me in to help me get just training, training with the 21s. And, um, I think, so there's a guy that does a lot of media, used to do a lot of media stuff at Leicester. And, uh, he's friends with Lenny, friends with Gary Parker and all them. And he's gone, Parks wants you to come up, um, come and train with Bolton, blah, And I went, yeah, no problem. So I went to go and train with Bolton and then. One minute I go from Blackburn to go and train with Bolton, and he goes, oh, do you fancy playing in a game with 21's game on tomorrow? Yeah, no problem. Went and played on that. Played 45 minutes. Hadn't played for a while. Played 45 minutes. Okay, do you fancy signing? Yeah, no problem. Signed, first game, Blackburn, at home, scored. But I'd been training with Blackburn for three weeks, four weeks? Yeah. nothing came of it I was just training with him and then obviously went to Bolton and then played but it was because of Lenny that got me in there to be fair which was good it was just tough because there was no money promised this promised that I think Lenny was looking at all these players and agreeing like they can have this and they can have that and they were saying no you can't have that but you can have this free player yeah Yeah. that's football though sometimes but the reality is if you're being honest with the manager he'll be able to figure that out he'll be able to figure out but the fact that you keep telling him yes you can have that you can have that and then pulling the rug from under his feet not good but obviously
you had a phenomenal playing career I want to know who was the toughest guy you came up against defender wise who you hated playing against I didn't hate playing against anyone to be honest with you I just loved the challenge
I loved Bye. Challengers Sol Campbell was tough Yeah Sol was very tough Big boy Yeah And then Walter Samuel Was one of the toughest God He was at Roma When we played Roma Yes
Oh my goodness Was he not a dirty
Bandit as well I think so Yeah Well it came out later Yeah It came out later That yeah
He was a dirty guy Yeah But yeah Let's not talk about that
Yeah Yeah so them two They were just Tough tough tough defenders strong powerful everything so yeah they would be my toughest toughest and out of your playing career who was your funniest teammate I think Cara Cara yeah Cara Jamie Cara funny yeah he was funny Peggy was Peggy was Peggy off exit I had him at Leicester as well and he was good he was funny but yeah there was
Mike Pollitt yeah when I was up wigging with him he's from Bolton just nuts was Bullard at wigging at that time just left just left because he comes across quite a funny guy as well yeah him and apparently him and
Mike Pollitt together yeah
Jesus yeah talking about stuff like that what was the best dressing room prank that you've ever seen And from who? There must have been some...
No, no, no, loads of... No, I didn't... I had one at youth team, which was probably a bad one. And we did it to one lad who got arachnophobia. And we took his sock off and we turned it inside out and put a spider in and then tied it. You know, you mess about with people's shoes and tying knots and all that. So he thought the actual joke was the tying of the knot in his sock. yeah so he's untied and then he's put his hand in and his kid you know he's like this oh man and he locked himself in the boot room never came out he didn't come out for the rest of the day or something like that he was just in there and when you look back you're like that's quite bad isn't it because that is serious oh yeah yeah serious stuff isn't it so yeah that's proper trauma yeah
that's not good I would be the same with a rat or anything I've got like a phobia do you understand and imagine you put your hand in a grub yeah that would give me the cold fear in fact I remember there was a guy on I'm a Celeb a guy called Dean Gaffney who used to be in and see the fear in his face when he was touching like rats or whatever in there you just seen
the fucking fear see this is the thing with that I'm a celebrity don't go in I can't do all that I just couldn't do it no you
You'd never ever, not even for a couple of million?
No. No. You guys got to swear. And the funny thing, my dad could do anything. He'd put his hand in anything.
Yeah.
Yeah, a snake. We went to Florida Disney World. Yeah. We had a house and we had all the family there and all that. This was going back probably about 20 years.
Yeah.
And he's seen a snake and he just went after the snake. I'm like, what are you going after the snake for? You don't even know what snake that is.
Yeah.
He just dived in there to try and pull this snake out. Like, Jesus.
Ah, it's fucking dangerous stuff. Nah, I'm a bit of a pussy when it comes to stuff like that. But... So you would never do it, but what does Emil Heskey do nowadays? Because I know you were involved in the women's team at Leicester. Yeah,
I was involved in the women's team at Leicester for a little bit and the boys on the 18s. So I was coaching there a bit. Boys were getting serious, so you want to watch them more. So I'm watching them, media work, keeping myself busy in that sense.
And we need to talk about, you're still playing football at this age as well. We were speaking about it before the podcast, but um How's the body holding up playing in these games?
Joining the game, not too bad. The week after, not so great. But no, it's just great to be out there at times. I've joined up with Insure again, signed up, so, but I can choose when I want to.
Yeah.
When I play. But yeah, it's just great. Sometimes, you know, it's great to be out there and just enjoy playing. When you see the injury to Steve and then you're like, oh, is that football?
Is he still out?
He's still out, yeah. Yeah.
So I've seen that Stephen Ireland broke his leg or whatever it was, a right bad one.
Tip and fib, I think.
Jesus.
So, yeah, it was not great. But yeah, when you see that, you're like second guessing it. But when you get out there, you just love playing that, going out there and playing. But you want a bit of fun.
Yeah.
I've done all the serious side of it. I just want to enjoy myself.
Do you find playing at that level People are still going, I'm going to get him, I'm going to give him one.
But that's part and parcel of it at times, you know what I mean? You've got to be sensible with it. I'm not going in flying into tackles and saying I'm not 20 anymore. So I've got to look after myself as well.
Yeah. And see that team, is it just full of ex-professionals now? No, no, no. At the start, the starting line-up from the weekend's game, I was telling you Bartley was at the back. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm looking through that team going... Man, that's a bit much George Boyd in the left wing and all that. This is ridiculous. But I'm like, is there any random guys that are just off the street playing there?
Yeah, yeah, we've got some local lads. Yeah. You get some local lads but then you obviously get the lads who want to just come and enjoy a game of football. Mine, I figure, I was injured at the minute so it would be him and Barkley at the back.
Yeah. Is Valencia still playing?
He comes every now and again. He lives in Ecuador or wherever. Oh,
does he just come over for the odd game when he's over? Yeah,
when he comes over,
yeah. But yeah, who put that team together? Was it Stephen Island?
It was Stephen. So on, I think, Tuesdays, we were playing seven-a-side anyway.
Yeah.
So we'd just get together, play seven-a-side, mess about, blah, give a bit of fitness. And then it just, I don't know, excelled into that. I don't know how. You must know the owner of the club. And they said, oh yeah, come and play. Bring so-and-so. Bring this player, bring that player. Yeah. And then you just end up, yeah. Everyone just loves playing football, so you end up with a full team of ex-players. Drinkwater, he can still play.
Yeah, he can't be that old, eh?
He's like, he'll be 37, 38. But he's like this. Honestly, he can get around the pitch and everything. Brilliant.
Yeah. Who's the top guy there just now in that team?
Probably him or Papacito. Pap scores goals. Scores goals there.
scoring goals every week I just see it all all the time on TikTok another one for him you're like jeez he could still probably play just looking at his building stuff but anyway we have had probably enough of your time so I don't want to hold you up for much longer but it has been an absolute pleasure to hear some of your stuff and yeah hopefully you keep scoring goals maybe need to try and catch a game one day rather than watching it on TikTok
but I appreciate it thank you thank you thank you thank you always thank you
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In this episode Emile Heskey is the guest and we go through some of the stories from his playing career.
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Transcription
and Stolz gets forward, he's got Heskey on for the pass, England are in again, it's Emil Heskey
It's five Welcome to today's podcast where we're joined by legend Emil Heskey, it's an absolute pleasure to have you Emil Thank you, thank you for having me And Greg as well, thank you, Greg sorted all this out so gotta give him a shout out as well but Emil obviously we were just talking about youth football there and I want to just start with that because obviously you've got a couple of kids who are playing Man City are they both still at Man City?
No the ones the eldest ones on loan at Sheffield Wednesday and the younger ones now playing for Cologne in
Germany Nice and was that because we were obviously talking there about progression you
progression was that something you had an influence on as well yeah I think more down to the agent and then obviously the player himself my son wants to play football yeah and at some stage you've got to break in he's now going to be 19 soon the younger one so he needs to actually play regularly he doesn't want to be left out left behind and you've got players now who are 18 19 they've got 100 games under their belt yeah and you're there as a and there's an emerging talent and in the top ranking of this and the top ranking of that and you've got two yeah at some stage he's got a match up so and then the elder one he was on loan at
Sheffield Wednesday last season absolutely loved it fans were great tough season for them anyway but now went back and hopefully can try and push for promotion this year yeah that's I would agree like what we were talking about earlier just getting getting those guys first team games is always important But I want to start, obviously, with your career and where it all started. Leicester?
Yes.
Who was the manager at Leicester at that point? Was it Mark or Neil?
Mark McGee.
Mark McGee, jeez.
So when I made my debut, it was Mark McGee. Brian Little was there. I'd done a little bit of training with them then, because when I left school at 16, you joined YTS. did a little bit of training with the first team then, but then he left for Villa, I think it was, and then Mark McGee came in.
Yeah. Mark McGee, what was he like to work under?
Really good. Really good. Forward. So everything was geared to us looking good. You know, we did all our sessions just like forward sessions, so really good. But I played 18s football for the first, say, six months or something like that from when I left school at 16 and then joined with them.
Yeah. Um, and who, what was Neil Lennon and stuff at that? The club came later with,
with, um, Martin and Neil.
Yeah.
So let me try and think who was there at the time. David Lowe. Um, I'm not even sure. Ewan Roberts was, I think Ewan might've been there already. Colin Hill.
Matty Elliott there as well. No, they come later. Is that after as well? Yeah, they come later. Jesus Christ.
and big matt yell it was a yeah he's a beast proper beast yeah we had we had a strong strong backbone we did we had him spencer prior uh steve walsh uh joe taggart we had some beasts yeah and were you from leicester born and raised in leicester yeah came through the ranks and i started there at nine so it was like a center of excellence so you train on tuesday and thursday nights there's 50 kids running around and then Throughout the years, they whittle it down till you get to your 16s. And then that's the key moment of whether you're going to go into what was a YTS, which was, you know, it was a youth training.
Yeah.
So it was a government thing then. So you get £35 the first year and £42 something, £42.50 or something like that the second year. So I was playing my first year of football on £42.
50 Jesus Christ 100 it's weird because I got that like when I left school I was they said what do you want to be and I'm like a mechanic I just wanted a car a mechanic and I got 40 quid skill secret it was called yeah you get that so
it's kind of like it's like work experience isn't it yeah so it was so yeah first year was 35 it's interesting so I've just come off a tour with some of the lads and some of them are older and theirs was you Their second year was 35. The first year was 27 something. So then our first year was 35.
Yeah.
Next year was 42 something. Then the next one was 45.
And did you ever like see if you were getting a sniff of the first team or anything? Did it go up or were you still on that? No,
no, you were on that because that's my contract. And then I wasn't allowed to sign, because I got in at 17. So you weren't allowed to sign a pro contract until you were 18. That played my first full season, well, half a season on 40 to something.
Value for money back then, eh? And when you came into the team at that age, was there any particular senior guy that took you under the...
We had so many good ones. Walshie was the main one. Steve Walsh was our captain. He'd been there, Jesus, I was a kid when I was watching Walshie play. Do you know what I mean? So he'd been there for a long time. He was our captain, our talisman. He was the one that really looked after all the young lads. I still stayed in the youth changing rooms. I didn't really want to go into the changing rooms. You go from cleaning everyone's boots and then knocking on the door and have to wait for someone to come in. Then going in there, it didn't really sit well. So I just stayed with the youth team and that. But yeah, Walshie was the main one. He's the man around town.
Yeah. And obviously you've done well at Leicester and want to jump over to getting the move to Liverpool. How did that come about?
There's several different facets of it. So I think they'd been watching me for a while. There's a tournament called Keele. At Keele University, they used to have a tournament every year. where all the teams, a lot of the teams, Blackburn, Liverpool, all there. We went there as Leicester, obviously. Played there, and I think at 16, there was interest in me, and I'd played England in the 16s as well. But then I broke into Leicester, there was a lot of interest from Blackburn, et cetera. I broke into Leicester, and I was like, look, I want to play here. I was happy to play. And then England under 18s tournament, Euros in France. Gerald Houllier was the manager of France under 18s. Henri Trezeguet, Anelka, Darbol, Scalas, Silvestre, Cissé. We ended up going to West Ham for a little bit. Players like that playing. And it was me and Michael up front. And then he'd seen me there and that's when he said, all right, and when he comes, I'm the player that he wants to bring you. So I was available after that.
Not bad at all. And you mentioned Michael there. Obviously, he went to Liverpool and obviously formed that partnership with Michael there.
It's one of those partnerships that just clicks. Yeah. It just works. I can't explain why it works. It just works. Under-18s England, me and him together, everything just ticked really well. Some of the stuff that I'm not so good at, he's brilliant at. he's not so good at it and brilliant at it and it just it just worked so well worked well together from then under 18 Michael's two years younger than me so he's playing with my age group there then we went to the 21s I think Michael played one game at the 21s then went and jumped up into the first team and then it was just a progression really and
Michael as a as a player obviously done really really well but would you say he was one of the the best partners you ever had?
favourite partner yeah just worked really well everything understanding he's a brilliant player though yeah he's a great player so it helps you as well he takes a little bit of the burden off you as well who made who look good is the question he was he was outstanding and the thing is I don't think he gets the recognition that he should do from the
brilliance that he is yeah because I think a lot of people just see him as this kind of old injury prone guy like obviously in a lot of parts of his career when I'm like
No, Just carries games. The thing is with Michael, and people don't really, and I don't think he's even mentioned it, Michael would be wheeled out injured for us. Yeah. Go and score and then come off. Yeah, it's true. Yeah. Then you look, and we're all sitting here as ex-players and we creak when we get up and you can imagine how he's feeling now where he's put his body, what he's had to put his body through week in, week out to try and get results for a team that he loves.
And Obviously prior to going to Liverpool, was there other teams sniffing around as well?
There was quite a few. I had Roma, Dortmund, Villa, Spurs,
Chelsea. Not a bad amount.
I think it was a perfect move for him and for Liverpool.
I think it was a... So when I came through Leicester, the five years I played at Leicester I went to Wembley four times. Playoff final and three League Cup finals. So the next stage for me was, okay, I'm at a club that I'm, I'm raised. I can do more or less what I want.
Yeah.
Um, I need to figure out what is next. for me here or do I don't take that next step where I'm challenging for league titles I'm challenging for other other clubs Champions League football all this sort of all this sort of playing against the elite so the next step was that for me and I was what 22 it's interesting because everyone thought that I was like 26 27 when I joined I was 22 just turned 22 when I had when I'd left Leicester to go and join Liverpool still a young lad but I the next step for me was what did it look like challenging for league, winning FA Cup, going to the Champions League or UEFA Cup. Yeah. And going and challenging and winning that sort of stuff. What does it look like? How is it? What sort of football? What's the tempo? Playing every three to four days. There was one year where we played and I kid you not, we played something like Sunday, Tuesday, Friday, Sunday.
Yeah.
It was just so many games just crammed in and we talk about a lot of games now the season we won the treble we played 63 games 63
63 65 65 63,
65 games I played 59 games oh man which is the travelling yeah and the travelling is the worst to be fair you're going flying here and trying to come back and then you're not really sleeping well and then you're trying to take a sleeping tablet to make sure you get a good sleep and then you don't get your food that you want and stuff like that it's not easy and what was the you
If you were advising, obviously, a young guy, what's the difference of playing for a Leicester where you were the main man to go into a club like Liverpool? You know,
it's learning. It's all about learning. I was lucky because I played with a national team. So I'd come through Leicester's ranks where it's about fighting, it's about battling. You've got to chase that person. You've got to tackle there. You've got to run back. You've got to try and win ahead of there. That bodes you well when you go into a bigger team because you've got that fight about you, but then you've got to learn how to control the ball. You've got to learn how to pass it there. But I'd been with the national team.
Yeah.
So I learned that with the national team as well.
Yeah.
You can't be giving away the ball. You can't. You can't. You've got to hold up that ball. You've got to understand what runs to make, when to make the runs, when to hold it up, when to look in behind. All this stuff, you actually learn on the job. Yeah. You learn a lot on the job.
That's it. And were you at Liverpool when Emil joined?
One of my best mates.
Yeah.
It's funny because the first time when I came in, the old training ground I mean the old oh yeah yeah Melwood old Melwood we had a small gym you know and I used to go because Gerard he said to me oh you have to go to gym you need to be stronger and every time he mean was there you remember it's only him and me yeah
when you look at them old gyms it's just like one little round thing you know with the different stations and you're trying to push weights off that and you're looking at how big Liverpool is you're thinking what is this Then obviously we moved to the new Melwood.
New building was the key.
Yeah. Absolutely. It needed to be that.
It was the key to reach the success. But you're talking about the partnership with Michael. I mean, as a defender, you're facing the game. And for the fact we knew we would score goals with the lads because one was stronger, strong, hold the ball, you know, can destroy defender. The other one was smart, sharp. Yeah. So, I mean, it was unbelievable.
I think one thing as well, what we're losing a little bit within football now is the ability to use your body to hold the ball up. And what it means when you're holding the ball up for you.
The gimme time.
Yeah. If you keep playing the ball up to me and it keeps coming back, at some stage he's going to say, I'm not playing the ball to me no more. And then your whole vision of what the game looks like looks totally different.
Yeah.
So now we're losing that. Because we're usually playing with one up front and they don't really get involved now. We're playing with two. You have to work. You have to get across. You have to hold the ball up. You have to win a foul. Even winning a foul is brilliant because you can just...
You know who did that over the weekend? Sunderland.
Yeah.
They were losing 1-0 and Regis Lovie went two up front and they scored. This is where they had the penalty.
Yeah.
And of course, it's more difficult for the defenders, you know? And as a striker, you have to work hard a bit. Yeah. I think Gerard, we are...
I thought I had this in mind yeah to play you and Michael at front yeah but as well with that we changed it a little bit where defensive side one has to drop in so you make it a three in the midfield yeah and just leave the one up front just to shadow and now we changed it they do one up front but when they defend they go with two up front so yeah easier life but what what was who were you like as a manager for you I thought he was brilliant I thought tactically he was really really good you understanding the game. I'd gone from I don't know what it was like for you, but I'd gone from being at Leicester where we didn't really do much tactics. We had some really good players and it was about unity, fight, fight, fight, unity. Give the ball to Emil, he can run with the ball. Give it to Muzzi, he can chew a ball. Give it to Lenny, he can find that pass. Give it to Gopsy, he can cross the ball. That was what it was. So now learning about your position, learning about how we want to play. Don't give the ball away in these areas. Take risks in that area. I was taking risks everywhere.
Yeah.
But you learn a lot more and you sit there. When I first got to Liverpool, it was tough. I'd gone from no meeting, no team meetings, to sitting there, dark room, with this big screen, 45 minutes, going like this.
You were talking about that earlier as well.
But then you slowly, with the information coming in, you're slowly like, okay, yeah, what's next? We'd go to a point where I came through the youth team with Stuart Campbell. He was at Grimsby at the time and I'm watching. Us play Grimsby and I'm thinking, why are we going through, we're going through the substitutes.
Yep.
I'm like, I don't need to know anything about Grimsby. Just give me the ball, let me run it. But this is the mentality you need to, you need information.
Yeah. That said, we had a good conversation about that coming down, just the amount of data and everything.
It's a little bit too much now because again, you overload someone's brain with stuff and you take away the, this. spontaneity of just getting on the ball sometimes and doing something yeah you're telling them where to pass you're telling them what to do no what happened to just go and dribble in the ball putting your putting your body in the way of of you and uh of you and the player and then just going and dribbling yeah using your assets to your advantage we're losing that a little bit i think it will come back around obviously but we're losing that a little bit yeah no we
were talking about ai and tori bloom and you could like literally go emil hesky's last 200 games this is what he does that's what he does wrong and all that but like you say what happens to well I'll give you an example of that right so
Arsenal we play Arsenal at home what was it I got tackled went down the physio came on you know physio comes on you have to go on the side went on the side the ball the refs call me back on I come back on the ball comes straight to me I dribble the ball I'm going. take it on my left and score and what I noticed was they kept on showing me on my left but I'm fine with using my left it's not a problem they told they told them to show me on my left yeah but then I'd done that and scored yeah so
yeah there's only certain guys you can maybe say that to maybe like me I can't my left leg's only for standing on but the thing is
we all learn how to use it the more and more and I was I'd already I'd played left wing for most of the two seasons before anyway yeah so I'd learnt to just and I was always using my left foot anyway but they told you off the data he doesn't like using his left foot you can show him down left and I'm just I'm going to swing it anyway bang use that to your advantage but
obviously you were part of the treble winning team um good was that maybe your first or second season? First season. First season.
So I joined in March.
Yeah.
And then that was the first full season.
Treble winning season. I'm just curious. I always ask people this because I'm a big collector of football memorabilia. Do you still have all your medals?
My dad has most of them, my stuff. There's a really nice house in the Caribbean with loads of shirts and memorabilia.
Yeah. because you see the amount of guys I speak to and they're just like just gave it away to this guy and all that and you're like fuck my shirts I did
I need boots and stuff like that yeah but I've got I've got a couple of things there's two of them my dad's got them yeah my dad's got them I found my one from Villa we lost it in the final but I found that one my dad's got the other ones still got my England Germany shirt
I've got Xavi yeah so I've got a few shirts but not loads you end up giving a lot of stuff away like you're saying out of the all of the stuff you've collected over the years from other players who's the prized shirt or whatever you've got Rivaldo Barcelona yeah he's what a player
I lost it as well well I say I lost it I'm thinking where is that shirt I'm sure I've had that shirt and I'm thinking where is it I go to the Caribbean it's on the wall in my dance I didn't even know that he took it
Was your dad like a big football fan or was he just keeping that for you?
He likes football, yeah, he's a big football fan, but he just keeps it. Just, yeah, keeps it. Yeah. Now the boys are playing, they're all over the walls now.
And you're bombed out. You're just getting taken off. New generation. That's one. So, yeah, obviously...
played with Mike alone and stuff obviously if you look out there people say you probably didn't score enough goals would that be an unfair criticism of you because you've done a lot of work yeah it's not even about the work you find your own niche and you work with that we won trophies yeah there are a lot of people with 100-200 goals and not won a thing yeah we all laud them but not won a thing yeah I'd gone from I went to four six league cup finals yeah I went to the 97 them. 99, 2000, 2001, 2003, and I think 2010 or 2019. Finals, League Cup finals.
Yeah.
So I was winning stuff. Yeah. And for me, that was what it was about. Not necessarily about all this, oh, you look at my individual accolades, yes, it's great, but you're a team that needs to win something. When I first came to Liverpool, I didn't realise I hadn't won anything since 95.
Yeah.
bad winter three cup three league cup finals in that time and people might say oh league cup it's a final yeah it's a trophy it's a trophy yeah so for me it was about winning stuff I don't really feed into I must score 20 goals and I must do this and I must do that first season was brilliant yeah but you learn your own niche and where you where you fit within that ecosystem yeah I know I think too many people are critical of certain players like.
because I've got a brother-in-law that plays up the road and people, he's a big guy as well and he does well for the team but the fans are like, yeah, you fucking lazy bandit.
The thing is, who are you trying to, are you looking after the manager? Yeah. Or are you looking after everyone else? Yeah. The manager tells you what to do, you do. That's why I always step back with my sons and I look at them, what are they doing? Why are they doing this? I don't know what he's told them. So I can't criticise them. For all I know, and especially the eldest one,
when I speak to the coach they love him because he does exactly what they tell him to do and they absolutely love him and he gets played every single time and I'm thinking why don't you do this why don't you do that but I don't know what they've told him yeah so that's something you felt like even watching your kid you had to have some form of restraint yeah yeah I leave him it's not my career I've got to say because you see a lot of the parents at the side like if you do this and if you do that this is a mistake yeah
Because football as well, especially at that level, right? Football, kids football, it's supposed to be fun.
Yeah.
It's supposed to be laughing. It's supposed to be joking. It's supposed to be trying stuff. Not looking over, looking over and worried that he's not happy with you or something. It's supposed to be fun.
I thought you said something interesting about, you know, when we are playing for big clubs like Liverpool, it's all about winning.
Yeah.
You need to understand the fan that just won trophies at the end of the season.
Yeah.
End of. And the manager wants to win.
And he says that. It's a must. It's a must. You must win.
Yeah. Yeah. Just, just, just the, I remember when we had the chat, how many times Gerard really said to us, we have to win. Be a winner a week in, a week out. Because you're playing for Liverpool.
You never lose three in a row. No, never lose two in a row. Never lose three.
It's a good team.
And I've come from Leicester, we're going five or six.
He was really worried after the, after each international break.
yeah the tough ones because your head was coming from everywhere and your mentality's all over the place you were spanking where are you where are you oh god but just a little bit more on Liverpool when you joined who was the kind of main character in that dressing room because that was a dressing room probably Cara
Cara yeah even though he was young at the time because I came when he was 20 and he's the same age as me but he's a Scouse lad and Scouses are you Loud. Yeah. They're funny though. He was probably the main character. We didn't really have loads of...
Gary Mack?
No, but Gary...
In a different way.
Yeah. Gary was the senior figure that held everyone together. We were young lads and you could imagine we would... If you didn't control us, we'd be running all over the place.
Did you? Did he?
He was good. Them two were brilliant in the midfield.
Yeah.
I think Gary Mack was one of the best ones though, because as a senior player, you've got to control everyone. Yeah. I'm 20. I was 19 and a half. I was 22. Kara's 22. Michael's 19. Stevie's 18 at the time. Yeah. So you've got to control all these players and make sure they're pulling them in, not just running all over the place.
Yeah.
And he was brilliant. And he was at the front of all the running. So you're looking at him like 36 at the time. I'm like, I'm a 22 year old at the back. Yeah.
the old man is running it but everyone talks about Gary Mack at Liverpool amazing man dumb guy that we've had on the we've had a few Liverpool guys and his name comes up regularly and he's one that I would have never
thought like but this is the genius of
Gerald Houliard because 36 years old you're not going by 36 yeah he was smart signing yeah he knew exactly what we needed to bring everything together yeah but moving on to your England career obviously you had a phenomenal England career but winning your first cap for the first team was that when you were at Liverpool? Leicester Leicester you got a cap when you were at Leicester that's phenomenal as well what was it like
walking into that team because again you must have been overawed with that oh yeah yeah you are at first but like I we go back I'm lucky because I played at 16s so you understand what it means and the quality that you need in training in the games because I did it at 16s yep and then you do 18s 21s and anything so you understand when you go up to the big boys it's even quicker you you kid you not you could ring your shirt when you finish training that's the intensity that you're playing at every game every training session is harder than the games yep because everyone seems like they're trying to impress but no it was it was really good at first it's a bit daunting that you're going in and Ian Wright's sat there Andy Cole's sat there Shira's sat there you're like what what's this
And... I would have just walked out when I'm not getting a game out of these guys.
But it was a great experience to be around them and put yourself up against them and know you've always got to challenge yourself and that was my thing. I was always challenging myself okay, where do I fit within this? What can I show that's different to you? Played against Argentina and what's his name? The ex-Leeds manager. The one who used to sit on the cooler.
The old guy? Yes, sir.
Yeah, yeah. He was the manager of Argentina at the time. And it's funny because I was on the flight and a guy came up to me and said, oh, you got me sacked. I was like a part-time scout for the Argentina team, but I was doing ESPN as well. So I used to do ESPN, watch the Premier League, blah, blah. And he said that I was, Bielsa told him, what do you make a Hesky? He's supposed to be starting. He said, no, no, he won't start. It'll be Kevin Phillips, blah, because no no he's starting we've heard it's like no he's not good enough he's can't he can't run then within so i started and within 20 minutes they had to pull their captain off because you know back then i just used to run down the channels and just i just knocked the ball and run yeah and i was this size no one's gonna stop me and yeah just absolutely murdered them and then he said i'd never call me back again obviously you talk about your size uh and stuff like that Did you work? or were you just playing a lot I was naturally big if you see my family yeah yeah I was naturally big I was in the gym but I had I had to be careful in the gym because I could get too big yeah I had to be very specific in the gym with what I was doing but yeah I was in because I'd been in the gym from 14, 15 yeah working because my dad used to work in like a youth centre and I'd just go there play football and then go in the gym with everyone else as a kid you
so yeah I did a fair bit of gym work but my family are big both sides more my dad fair enough fair enough you can get away with it but we need to talk about the game you mentioned you've still got the jersey the 5-1 Germany game and you scored the 5th goal can you talk us through What that would be like, beating Germany 5-1. Well,
the build-up was tough because, again, we lost the last game at the Old Wembley. Did he score? Did the handman score a free kick? So it's the last game at the Old Wembley and you're losing to your rivals. Kevin Keegan decided to step down after the game.
Yeah, correct.
He says he can't do it anymore, blah, blah.
I remember this, yeah.
And then we go to their backyard. They hadn't lost in 50-plus games at home. And then they go 1-0 up as well. It's Sven's first, I think it's Sven's first competitive game. We go 1-0 down after seven minutes. Dave Seaman makes another save and it's like, could have been 2-0. I think we just scored, Sven was brilliant. Like Gerrard, very tactical, bring a board out and start moving all these pieces around. You're looking at it and you're saying, okay, I understand where I need to be. Give you the freedom when you're on the board to do whatever you want.
Yeah.
But when you're defensively, you need to be doing this, this, this, this, and this. I was like, fine. So we scored at key times. Michael scored, Stevie scored just before halftime. And you'll know.
There's times in the game where managers say, your focus has got to be 10-10, just before half-time and just after half-time. And we scored at them two times. We scored to make it 2-1, and they probably deserved to either be ahead or at least draw in. And we went in 2-1 up, come back after 3-1, finished.
So you scored the fifth goal. Where does that...
rank amongst your career highlights was that i think one of the biggest ones the reason i say that is it's it's it's a game that everyone knows yeah i go everywhere literally everywhere i had a one i've got so many good stories as well i had one kid i went to watch my son play and one kid sat in front of me and he after a half time he turned around said thank you for that game blah I'm looking at him thinking, howdy. It's a memory from when he was with his granddad.
Yeah.
Another one, him and his dad were watching the game. Went 1-0 down. His dad was out fuming. He didn't watch the game. He just stormed out and left. Didn't watch the game. Another one where a guy had a ticket and on the same day, he's supposed to be a groom at his brother's wedding.
Yeah.
He's like, what do I do? All these things. People have some wonderful stories, but it's a game that everyone remembers.
Yeah. And I'm just curious to your answer to this question. Obviously, you played with some amazing players. Who was your favourite England player to play with?
Michael.
Michael,
yeah, yeah, Michael. Favourite player, player?
Yeah.
Probably Stevie. Favourite forward, Michael.
Yeah.
But Wazza was close. Wazza was brilliant because... I know what he wants to do. He loves getting on the ball, Wayne Rooney.
Yeah.
Loves getting on the ball. So what my job is, create space for him to get on the ball.
Yeah.
So I make him runs to deter defenders from going into the number 10 spot.
Yeah.
To create space for him to go and get on it, turn and start dribbling and doing what he's doing.
Yeah.
And then I'm there to hold the ball up, knock it back to him and then let him play. He was, yeah, he was phenomenal as well.
He's one of my favourites. Michael won the Ballon d'Or.
Yeah. Oh, I was at Liverpool. Yeah.
You know why you want the Ballon d'Or also? Because of Emil Wark.
Yeah.
I'm pretty sure. Yeah, because he scored beautiful goals, but the movement you made for him.
Yeah, I think creating space. You understand? Yeah. That goes both ways as well. So I think for Michael, as long as you're working with him, he's going to be, if you're doing. You've got too many forwards, they work in separate, they don't work together.
Yeah.
I was all about working and I grew up in an environment where you've got to work together.
Yeah.
So my thing was, how do I gel with this player?
Yeah.
And that's how, and he was, again, he was a phenomenal player.
This year he was on fire.
Yeah, he was phenomenal.
Yeah. But would you say a lot of other guys now are just in it for themselves? Like, want to score more goals?
It's not just now. Or always? Yeah, it's been like that for, for, Forever, really. You've got some players who will lose a game. See, I've done my job, I've scored two.
Yeah.
You've lost a game.
Yeah.
That doesn't make sense in my head.
Yeah.
But it might be because I'm from an environment that is winning and losing is key. We could get relegated. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. It's all about fighting at Leicester. As you see what's happening there now. You need players who are ready to put it down and fight.
Yeah. No, I mean, we were talking about that result on the way down as well. They're getting beat 4-0 off Oxford. And you've still got a good squad there.
At home.
Yeah. That was a proper shocker.
You said they've got a good squad. They've got a lot of young players, which is needed.
Yeah.
But you need some... We're talking about Gary Mack.
Yeah.
You need senior players that can help them.
Yeah.
They're going to give you all, these kids. They're going to give you all. But at some stage, they might come up against it where they need someone else to... to help galvanise them and help them get through this game yeah
I haven't seen that yet when you're young you've got the legs yeah when you get older you think you know you think about the game yeah when you're young you don't think too much about this just want to play and show to the manager you can prove you're good enough to stay in the team yeah so I'm just curious see Leicester is the Thai guy still involved yes he's still there still the owners yeah I didn't know
there's a hell of a drop in it the thing is you overspend it comes back to haunt you yeah they should never have been relegated with the squad that they had they should never have been relegated yeah but then you are relegated and then then you've got to figure out how are we going to consolidate we cannot afford to keep paying these wages we can't afford to have these players just sitting around yeah so then you just you start slowly tearing the squad apart yeah bring young lads in which they have we've got some fantastic young lads to be fair we've sold some Trey Nyhoney's gone to Liverpool yeah Munger's gone to Man City he's now he's in Swansea Motsey just left he's gone to Man City as well you so they sold they actually are producing but none of them actually get to the first yeah but going back to the England thing yep you obviously played with some phenomenal players but if you had to pick because it's a question that comes up in every podcast
Stevie G Frank Lampard or Paul Scholes if you could only pick one Stevie
Stevie yeah yeah yeah Stevie but Scholes was brilliant Lamp as well Lamps as well they were all phenomenal players you can't take away from what they've all done yeah Scholes was brilliant Stevie because I played longer with him and at the end of the day he can take a game by the scruff of the neck on his own and change it I don't know if the others can do that on their own just take the ball and go and do something yeah they'll obviously need others to be contributing in that
Stevie just give him the ball let him do his thing manager wise you obviously work with various different managers who was you the best one that understood you the best
Martin O'Neill and Gerald Holier I can't I can't take away one if I'm honest with them two Martin gave me the the freedom to do what I was good at and what I wanted which was get the ball turn run with the ball I remember I remember I can't remember who he played but I remember getting the ball controlling it laying it back to Robbie Savage he took a touch and then gave it away managed to go to me i'm like what's that what's he having to go to me for and then come yeah what are you doing that for i'm like i just gave him the balls he says what is he gonna do that you can't i looked at him and just get the ball turn and run i went yeah you're right so and then the funny thing with with martin he didn't coach didn't do any of the coaching but man management had a group of lads that would run for a bit orphan yeah And that's what he's getting at Celtic now. He's given up the job, then he has to come back and galvanise him again, then give it up again, then come back and do it again. It's down to, there's a place for management, there's a place to get the players on your side. Then there's a place for coaches. Yeah. Coaching. Yeah. And understanding the tactics and all that. That's not him.
Yeah.
He's the other part of it.
Did O'Neill ever give the kind of fear factor? I don't know, Martin O'Neill, did he ever give people the fear factor?
He was horrible. He wasn't nice.
because he worked with Cluffy and stuff I would always imagine guys like Cluffy you would shit yourself you'd be like fuck no one wanted to ask him any questions no one wanted to go into his office all they wanted to do was keep him happy and once you kept him happy he'd keep you happy and
a lot of the time when you keep players happy what is it days off and stuff like that he was brilliant at that giving lads days off understanding what they needed for their families and stuff like that staff at the training ground Not one of them has a bad word to say about Martin.
Jeez.
No, understands when their birthday is, when their kid's birthday is. I'm talking about cleaners. I'm talking about chefs. I'm talking about all them people.
Yeah.
They all love him. But he was brilliant. And Gerald was similar. Gerald understood the one-on-one with the players.
Yeah.
Understood that. And then obviously tactically, he was a different level.
Did you ever have a bust up with any of those managers?
Martin.
Martin.
Yeah. But that was later on. Yeah. Aston Villa.
Yeah.
Yeah, it was later on. But yeah, when you get older, you've got your own way of saying stuff and portraying it. So yeah, it just wasn't, we didn't click. But he still picked me.
Yeah.
Yeah, he still picked me. I still wanted to run for a bit more for him. I have nothing bad to say about him.
I think if you are clearer as a manager, you're understanding. From the age to 20 to 24, you do what you want with the player.
Yeah.
From 24 to 28, the player show you, boss, you need me. Yeah. And after 29, 30 years old, this is where the player come back toward the manager, you know? Yeah. You know, it's nearly the end. Yeah. So it's, that's why, you know, if you're a good manager, if you understand this.
Martin was brilliant. Martin, we had a good, especially at Villa, we had a really, really good group. We just didn't have... It was that little bit that we just lacked. We were trying to break into the top four. We finished top six every year.
Yeah.
We're just slowly trying to break in.
After Liverpool, you went on to Birmingham. and obviously Wigan, Villa, Newcastle, Jets and Bolton I want to touch on onwards after Liverpool what made you decide to move on?
I'd been told by the then CEO that Cissé was coming in and I had to leave I said no, no, I'll fight for my place because the reality is I knew that I would have played the way that I play, you need a player like that because you would have been that old 26 yeah 26 but I was told no I won't play and then there becomes that point where you're like if I'm being told I'm not going to play what am I going to do just sit there and collect money yeah I said no no let me just go and play some football somewhere no disrespect to Birmingham but they came in Steve Bruce sat down with Steve Bruce in my house and he talked me through everything and I went there started well In the sense of, it was tough. Because I've gone from being with Stevie, being with these guys, who, football is football, but when you're in it, you realise who's top and who's level and who's just a footballer. I would think at Liverpool, you've got to play forward. You've got to wrap balls in, everything's got to be done quick and crisp. I'm making runs and no one's even looked up.
Yeah.
So, yeah. I'd gone from that where I'm getting Stevie G just wrapping balls into me. I've got to be alert and control it on the chest, on whatever, however I've got to control it. I've got to control it. To now, everyone's going side to side and I'm just stood there thinking, I'm making runs but no one's even looked up. So I had to adjust there. And then we'd gone from being, I think Birmingham's been up there now three, four seasons now. And I think they were trying to transition into something different.
Yeah.
Better. But it wasn't, we got a load of players in and it just didn't fit who we were. The best player was Damian Johnson who worked. And when you know, when your best player is like that, then you know all these other players that you're buying, they're not going to, they're not going to fit.
Yeah.
It just didn't fit. And then went on to Wigan, which was good actually. Wigan is a strange one because there's zero pressure. We had an amazing team. Valencia, Palacios, Mario Melchior, myself, Titus Bramble, Chris Kirkland. We had some good players. Mano Figueroa, we had some good, really, really good players and we did okay. But then it becomes a point where a bid will be put on the table and you're at a club that will just go. put another 50 grand on that put another 100 grand on that do you know what I mean so Valencia left Palacios left I left yeah it just started slowly started to take away the essence of what you got there nah I reckon they went through a period where I thought they wouldn't we wouldn't FA Cup at all yeah back to Villa would you always say was Roy Keane there as well no
I didn't know if Roy Keane was following him around at that point or not. No, I think that was a bit later.
But that was national team.
Yeah, that's right. I think
Paul Lambert brought in Roy Keane, I believe.
Yeah, that was it. But Villa going from Birmingham, Wigan, then you're going back to a big, big club like that. A big club again. Was that, again, a different expectation? Oh yeah,
100%. But I was ready for it again. Yeah. By the way, I forced my way back into the national team at Wigan. I think I was the first Wigan player to play for England.
Yep.
I know Kirky did it, but he was on loan from Liverpool at the time. So yeah, made my way back into the national team. So I played and then moved to Villa. Huge club. I'm from Leicester, so I know what the size of the club means and everything. But it was nice to go back into that environment where you're playing European football. Your expectation is super high.
Yeah.
The pressures of that. You live for that, to be honest. I know people say no, but you actually do live for that.
Yeah. And obviously, after that, you went to Bolton. What was that like as a club? Because they weren't... You're struggling. Yeah,
they were struggling at that point. So I was actually training at Blackburn. Paul Robinson got me in to help me get just training, training with the 21s. And, um, I think, so there's a guy that does a lot of media, used to do a lot of media stuff at Leicester. And, uh, he's friends with Lenny, friends with Gary Parker and all them. And he's gone, Parks wants you to come up, um, come and train with Bolton, blah, And I went, yeah, no problem. So I went to go and train with Bolton and then. One minute I go from Blackburn to go and train with Bolton, and he goes, oh, do you fancy playing in a game with 21's game on tomorrow? Yeah, no problem. Went and played on that. Played 45 minutes. Hadn't played for a while. Played 45 minutes. Okay, do you fancy signing? Yeah, no problem. Signed, first game, Blackburn, at home, scored. But I'd been training with Blackburn for three weeks, four weeks? Yeah. nothing came of it I was just training with him and then obviously went to Bolton and then played but it was because of Lenny that got me in there to be fair which was good it was just tough because there was no money promised this promised that I think Lenny was looking at all these players and agreeing like they can have this and they can have that and they were saying no you can't have that but you can have this free player yeah Yeah. that's football though sometimes but the reality is if you're being honest with the manager he'll be able to figure that out he'll be able to figure out but the fact that you keep telling him yes you can have that you can have that and then pulling the rug from under his feet not good but obviously
you had a phenomenal playing career I want to know who was the toughest guy you came up against defender wise who you hated playing against I didn't hate playing against anyone to be honest with you I just loved the challenge
I loved Bye. Challengers Sol Campbell was tough Yeah Sol was very tough Big boy Yeah And then Walter Samuel Was one of the toughest God He was at Roma When we played Roma Yes
Oh my goodness Was he not a dirty
Bandit as well I think so Yeah Well it came out later Yeah It came out later That yeah
He was a dirty guy Yeah But yeah Let's not talk about that
Yeah Yeah so them two They were just Tough tough tough defenders strong powerful everything so yeah they would be my toughest toughest and out of your playing career who was your funniest teammate I think Cara Cara yeah Cara Jamie Cara funny yeah he was funny Peggy was Peggy was Peggy off exit I had him at Leicester as well and he was good he was funny but yeah there was
Mike Pollitt yeah when I was up wigging with him he's from Bolton just nuts was Bullard at wigging at that time just left just left because he comes across quite a funny guy as well yeah him and apparently him and
Mike Pollitt together yeah
Jesus yeah talking about stuff like that what was the best dressing room prank that you've ever seen And from who? There must have been some...
No, no, no, loads of... No, I didn't... I had one at youth team, which was probably a bad one. And we did it to one lad who got arachnophobia. And we took his sock off and we turned it inside out and put a spider in and then tied it. You know, you mess about with people's shoes and tying knots and all that. So he thought the actual joke was the tying of the knot in his sock. yeah so he's untied and then he's put his hand in and his kid you know he's like this oh man and he locked himself in the boot room never came out he didn't come out for the rest of the day or something like that he was just in there and when you look back you're like that's quite bad isn't it because that is serious oh yeah yeah serious stuff isn't it so yeah that's proper trauma yeah
that's not good I would be the same with a rat or anything I've got like a phobia do you understand and imagine you put your hand in a grub yeah that would give me the cold fear in fact I remember there was a guy on I'm a Celeb a guy called Dean Gaffney who used to be in and see the fear in his face when he was touching like rats or whatever in there you just seen
the fucking fear see this is the thing with that I'm a celebrity don't go in I can't do all that I just couldn't do it no you
You'd never ever, not even for a couple of million?
No. No. You guys got to swear. And the funny thing, my dad could do anything. He'd put his hand in anything.
Yeah.
Yeah, a snake. We went to Florida Disney World. Yeah. We had a house and we had all the family there and all that. This was going back probably about 20 years.
Yeah.
And he's seen a snake and he just went after the snake. I'm like, what are you going after the snake for? You don't even know what snake that is.
Yeah.
He just dived in there to try and pull this snake out. Like, Jesus.
Ah, it's fucking dangerous stuff. Nah, I'm a bit of a pussy when it comes to stuff like that. But... So you would never do it, but what does Emil Heskey do nowadays? Because I know you were involved in the women's team at Leicester. Yeah,
I was involved in the women's team at Leicester for a little bit and the boys on the 18s. So I was coaching there a bit. Boys were getting serious, so you want to watch them more. So I'm watching them, media work, keeping myself busy in that sense.
And we need to talk about, you're still playing football at this age as well. We were speaking about it before the podcast, but um How's the body holding up playing in these games?
Joining the game, not too bad. The week after, not so great. But no, it's just great to be out there at times. I've joined up with Insure again, signed up, so, but I can choose when I want to.
Yeah.
When I play. But yeah, it's just great. Sometimes, you know, it's great to be out there and just enjoy playing. When you see the injury to Steve and then you're like, oh, is that football?
Is he still out?
He's still out, yeah. Yeah.
So I've seen that Stephen Ireland broke his leg or whatever it was, a right bad one.
Tip and fib, I think.
Jesus.
So, yeah, it was not great. But yeah, when you see that, you're like second guessing it. But when you get out there, you just love playing that, going out there and playing. But you want a bit of fun.
Yeah.
I've done all the serious side of it. I just want to enjoy myself.
Do you find playing at that level People are still going, I'm going to get him, I'm going to give him one.
But that's part and parcel of it at times, you know what I mean? You've got to be sensible with it. I'm not going in flying into tackles and saying I'm not 20 anymore. So I've got to look after myself as well.
Yeah. And see that team, is it just full of ex-professionals now? No, no, no. At the start, the starting line-up from the weekend's game, I was telling you Bartley was at the back. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm looking through that team going... Man, that's a bit much George Boyd in the left wing and all that. This is ridiculous. But I'm like, is there any random guys that are just off the street playing there?
Yeah, yeah, we've got some local lads. Yeah. You get some local lads but then you obviously get the lads who want to just come and enjoy a game of football. Mine, I figure, I was injured at the minute so it would be him and Barkley at the back.
Yeah. Is Valencia still playing?
He comes every now and again. He lives in Ecuador or wherever. Oh,
does he just come over for the odd game when he's over? Yeah,
when he comes over,
yeah. But yeah, who put that team together? Was it Stephen Island?
It was Stephen. So on, I think, Tuesdays, we were playing seven-a-side anyway.
Yeah.
So we'd just get together, play seven-a-side, mess about, blah, give a bit of fitness. And then it just, I don't know, excelled into that. I don't know how. You must know the owner of the club. And they said, oh yeah, come and play. Bring so-and-so. Bring this player, bring that player. Yeah. And then you just end up, yeah. Everyone just loves playing football, so you end up with a full team of ex-players. Drinkwater, he can still play.
Yeah, he can't be that old, eh?
He's like, he'll be 37, 38. But he's like this. Honestly, he can get around the pitch and everything. Brilliant.
Yeah. Who's the top guy there just now in that team?
Probably him or Papacito. Pap scores goals. Scores goals there.
scoring goals every week I just see it all all the time on TikTok another one for him you're like jeez he could still probably play just looking at his building stuff but anyway we have had probably enough of your time so I don't want to hold you up for much longer but it has been an absolute pleasure to hear some of your stuff and yeah hopefully you keep scoring goals maybe need to try and catch a game one day rather than watching it on TikTok
but I appreciate it thank you thank you thank you thank you always thank you
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In this episode Emile Heskey is the guest and we go through some of the stories from his playing career.
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Transcription
and Stolz gets forward, he's got Heskey on for the pass, England are in again, it's Emil Heskey
It's five Welcome to today's podcast where we're joined by legend Emil Heskey, it's an absolute pleasure to have you Emil Thank you, thank you for having me And Greg as well, thank you, Greg sorted all this out so gotta give him a shout out as well but Emil obviously we were just talking about youth football there and I want to just start with that because obviously you've got a couple of kids who are playing Man City are they both still at Man City?
No the ones the eldest ones on loan at Sheffield Wednesday and the younger ones now playing for Cologne in
Germany Nice and was that because we were obviously talking there about progression you
progression was that something you had an influence on as well yeah I think more down to the agent and then obviously the player himself my son wants to play football yeah and at some stage you've got to break in he's now going to be 19 soon the younger one so he needs to actually play regularly he doesn't want to be left out left behind and you've got players now who are 18 19 they've got 100 games under their belt yeah and you're there as a and there's an emerging talent and in the top ranking of this and the top ranking of that and you've got two yeah at some stage he's got a match up so and then the elder one he was on loan at
Sheffield Wednesday last season absolutely loved it fans were great tough season for them anyway but now went back and hopefully can try and push for promotion this year yeah that's I would agree like what we were talking about earlier just getting getting those guys first team games is always important But I want to start, obviously, with your career and where it all started. Leicester?
Yes.
Who was the manager at Leicester at that point? Was it Mark or Neil?
Mark McGee.
Mark McGee, jeez.
So when I made my debut, it was Mark McGee. Brian Little was there. I'd done a little bit of training with them then, because when I left school at 16, you joined YTS. did a little bit of training with the first team then, but then he left for Villa, I think it was, and then Mark McGee came in.
Yeah. Mark McGee, what was he like to work under?
Really good. Really good. Forward. So everything was geared to us looking good. You know, we did all our sessions just like forward sessions, so really good. But I played 18s football for the first, say, six months or something like that from when I left school at 16 and then joined with them.
Yeah. Um, and who, what was Neil Lennon and stuff at that? The club came later with,
with, um, Martin and Neil.
Yeah.
So let me try and think who was there at the time. David Lowe. Um, I'm not even sure. Ewan Roberts was, I think Ewan might've been there already. Colin Hill.
Matty Elliott there as well. No, they come later. Is that after as well? Yeah, they come later. Jesus Christ.
and big matt yell it was a yeah he's a beast proper beast yeah we had we had a strong strong backbone we did we had him spencer prior uh steve walsh uh joe taggart we had some beasts yeah and were you from leicester born and raised in leicester yeah came through the ranks and i started there at nine so it was like a center of excellence so you train on tuesday and thursday nights there's 50 kids running around and then Throughout the years, they whittle it down till you get to your 16s. And then that's the key moment of whether you're going to go into what was a YTS, which was, you know, it was a youth training.
Yeah.
So it was a government thing then. So you get £35 the first year and £42 something, £42.50 or something like that the second year. So I was playing my first year of football on £42.
50 Jesus Christ 100 it's weird because I got that like when I left school I was they said what do you want to be and I'm like a mechanic I just wanted a car a mechanic and I got 40 quid skill secret it was called yeah you get that so
it's kind of like it's like work experience isn't it yeah so it was so yeah first year was 35 it's interesting so I've just come off a tour with some of the lads and some of them are older and theirs was you Their second year was 35. The first year was 27 something. So then our first year was 35.
Yeah.
Next year was 42 something. Then the next one was 45.
And did you ever like see if you were getting a sniff of the first team or anything? Did it go up or were you still on that? No,
no, you were on that because that's my contract. And then I wasn't allowed to sign, because I got in at 17. So you weren't allowed to sign a pro contract until you were 18. That played my first full season, well, half a season on 40 to something.
Value for money back then, eh? And when you came into the team at that age, was there any particular senior guy that took you under the...
We had so many good ones. Walshie was the main one. Steve Walsh was our captain. He'd been there, Jesus, I was a kid when I was watching Walshie play. Do you know what I mean? So he'd been there for a long time. He was our captain, our talisman. He was the one that really looked after all the young lads. I still stayed in the youth changing rooms. I didn't really want to go into the changing rooms. You go from cleaning everyone's boots and then knocking on the door and have to wait for someone to come in. Then going in there, it didn't really sit well. So I just stayed with the youth team and that. But yeah, Walshie was the main one. He's the man around town.
Yeah. And obviously you've done well at Leicester and want to jump over to getting the move to Liverpool. How did that come about?
There's several different facets of it. So I think they'd been watching me for a while. There's a tournament called Keele. At Keele University, they used to have a tournament every year. where all the teams, a lot of the teams, Blackburn, Liverpool, all there. We went there as Leicester, obviously. Played there, and I think at 16, there was interest in me, and I'd played England in the 16s as well. But then I broke into Leicester, there was a lot of interest from Blackburn, et cetera. I broke into Leicester, and I was like, look, I want to play here. I was happy to play. And then England under 18s tournament, Euros in France. Gerald Houllier was the manager of France under 18s. Henri Trezeguet, Anelka, Darbol, Scalas, Silvestre, Cissé. We ended up going to West Ham for a little bit. Players like that playing. And it was me and Michael up front. And then he'd seen me there and that's when he said, all right, and when he comes, I'm the player that he wants to bring you. So I was available after that.
Not bad at all. And you mentioned Michael there. Obviously, he went to Liverpool and obviously formed that partnership with Michael there.
It's one of those partnerships that just clicks. Yeah. It just works. I can't explain why it works. It just works. Under-18s England, me and him together, everything just ticked really well. Some of the stuff that I'm not so good at, he's brilliant at. he's not so good at it and brilliant at it and it just it just worked so well worked well together from then under 18 Michael's two years younger than me so he's playing with my age group there then we went to the 21s I think Michael played one game at the 21s then went and jumped up into the first team and then it was just a progression really and
Michael as a as a player obviously done really really well but would you say he was one of the the best partners you ever had?
favourite partner yeah just worked really well everything understanding he's a brilliant player though yeah he's a great player so it helps you as well he takes a little bit of the burden off you as well who made who look good is the question he was he was outstanding and the thing is I don't think he gets the recognition that he should do from the
brilliance that he is yeah because I think a lot of people just see him as this kind of old injury prone guy like obviously in a lot of parts of his career when I'm like
No, Just carries games. The thing is with Michael, and people don't really, and I don't think he's even mentioned it, Michael would be wheeled out injured for us. Yeah. Go and score and then come off. Yeah, it's true. Yeah. Then you look, and we're all sitting here as ex-players and we creak when we get up and you can imagine how he's feeling now where he's put his body, what he's had to put his body through week in, week out to try and get results for a team that he loves.
And Obviously prior to going to Liverpool, was there other teams sniffing around as well?
There was quite a few. I had Roma, Dortmund, Villa, Spurs,
Chelsea. Not a bad amount.
I think it was a perfect move for him and for Liverpool.
I think it was a... So when I came through Leicester, the five years I played at Leicester I went to Wembley four times. Playoff final and three League Cup finals. So the next stage for me was, okay, I'm at a club that I'm, I'm raised. I can do more or less what I want.
Yeah.
Um, I need to figure out what is next. for me here or do I don't take that next step where I'm challenging for league titles I'm challenging for other other clubs Champions League football all this sort of all this sort of playing against the elite so the next step was that for me and I was what 22 it's interesting because everyone thought that I was like 26 27 when I joined I was 22 just turned 22 when I had when I'd left Leicester to go and join Liverpool still a young lad but I the next step for me was what did it look like challenging for league, winning FA Cup, going to the Champions League or UEFA Cup. Yeah. And going and challenging and winning that sort of stuff. What does it look like? How is it? What sort of football? What's the tempo? Playing every three to four days. There was one year where we played and I kid you not, we played something like Sunday, Tuesday, Friday, Sunday.
Yeah.
It was just so many games just crammed in and we talk about a lot of games now the season we won the treble we played 63 games 63
63 65 65 63,
65 games I played 59 games oh man which is the travelling yeah and the travelling is the worst to be fair you're going flying here and trying to come back and then you're not really sleeping well and then you're trying to take a sleeping tablet to make sure you get a good sleep and then you don't get your food that you want and stuff like that it's not easy and what was the you
If you were advising, obviously, a young guy, what's the difference of playing for a Leicester where you were the main man to go into a club like Liverpool? You know,
it's learning. It's all about learning. I was lucky because I played with a national team. So I'd come through Leicester's ranks where it's about fighting, it's about battling. You've got to chase that person. You've got to tackle there. You've got to run back. You've got to try and win ahead of there. That bodes you well when you go into a bigger team because you've got that fight about you, but then you've got to learn how to control the ball. You've got to learn how to pass it there. But I'd been with the national team.
Yeah.
So I learned that with the national team as well.
Yeah.
You can't be giving away the ball. You can't. You can't. You've got to hold up that ball. You've got to understand what runs to make, when to make the runs, when to hold it up, when to look in behind. All this stuff, you actually learn on the job. Yeah. You learn a lot on the job.
That's it. And were you at Liverpool when Emil joined?
One of my best mates.
Yeah.
It's funny because the first time when I came in, the old training ground I mean the old oh yeah yeah Melwood old Melwood we had a small gym you know and I used to go because Gerard he said to me oh you have to go to gym you need to be stronger and every time he mean was there you remember it's only him and me yeah
when you look at them old gyms it's just like one little round thing you know with the different stations and you're trying to push weights off that and you're looking at how big Liverpool is you're thinking what is this Then obviously we moved to the new Melwood.
New building was the key.
Yeah. Absolutely. It needed to be that.
It was the key to reach the success. But you're talking about the partnership with Michael. I mean, as a defender, you're facing the game. And for the fact we knew we would score goals with the lads because one was stronger, strong, hold the ball, you know, can destroy defender. The other one was smart, sharp. Yeah. So, I mean, it was unbelievable.
I think one thing as well, what we're losing a little bit within football now is the ability to use your body to hold the ball up. And what it means when you're holding the ball up for you.
The gimme time.
Yeah. If you keep playing the ball up to me and it keeps coming back, at some stage he's going to say, I'm not playing the ball to me no more. And then your whole vision of what the game looks like looks totally different.
Yeah.
So now we're losing that. Because we're usually playing with one up front and they don't really get involved now. We're playing with two. You have to work. You have to get across. You have to hold the ball up. You have to win a foul. Even winning a foul is brilliant because you can just...
You know who did that over the weekend? Sunderland.
Yeah.
They were losing 1-0 and Regis Lovie went two up front and they scored. This is where they had the penalty.
Yeah.
And of course, it's more difficult for the defenders, you know? And as a striker, you have to work hard a bit. Yeah. I think Gerard, we are...
I thought I had this in mind yeah to play you and Michael at front yeah but as well with that we changed it a little bit where defensive side one has to drop in so you make it a three in the midfield yeah and just leave the one up front just to shadow and now we changed it they do one up front but when they defend they go with two up front so yeah easier life but what what was who were you like as a manager for you I thought he was brilliant I thought tactically he was really really good you understanding the game. I'd gone from I don't know what it was like for you, but I'd gone from being at Leicester where we didn't really do much tactics. We had some really good players and it was about unity, fight, fight, fight, unity. Give the ball to Emil, he can run with the ball. Give it to Muzzi, he can chew a ball. Give it to Lenny, he can find that pass. Give it to Gopsy, he can cross the ball. That was what it was. So now learning about your position, learning about how we want to play. Don't give the ball away in these areas. Take risks in that area. I was taking risks everywhere.
Yeah.
But you learn a lot more and you sit there. When I first got to Liverpool, it was tough. I'd gone from no meeting, no team meetings, to sitting there, dark room, with this big screen, 45 minutes, going like this.
You were talking about that earlier as well.
But then you slowly, with the information coming in, you're slowly like, okay, yeah, what's next? We'd go to a point where I came through the youth team with Stuart Campbell. He was at Grimsby at the time and I'm watching. Us play Grimsby and I'm thinking, why are we going through, we're going through the substitutes.
Yep.
I'm like, I don't need to know anything about Grimsby. Just give me the ball, let me run it. But this is the mentality you need to, you need information.
Yeah. That said, we had a good conversation about that coming down, just the amount of data and everything.
It's a little bit too much now because again, you overload someone's brain with stuff and you take away the, this. spontaneity of just getting on the ball sometimes and doing something yeah you're telling them where to pass you're telling them what to do no what happened to just go and dribble in the ball putting your putting your body in the way of of you and uh of you and the player and then just going and dribbling yeah using your assets to your advantage we're losing that a little bit i think it will come back around obviously but we're losing that a little bit yeah no we
were talking about ai and tori bloom and you could like literally go emil hesky's last 200 games this is what he does that's what he does wrong and all that but like you say what happens to well I'll give you an example of that right so
Arsenal we play Arsenal at home what was it I got tackled went down the physio came on you know physio comes on you have to go on the side went on the side the ball the refs call me back on I come back on the ball comes straight to me I dribble the ball I'm going. take it on my left and score and what I noticed was they kept on showing me on my left but I'm fine with using my left it's not a problem they told they told them to show me on my left yeah but then I'd done that and scored yeah so
yeah there's only certain guys you can maybe say that to maybe like me I can't my left leg's only for standing on but the thing is
we all learn how to use it the more and more and I was I'd already I'd played left wing for most of the two seasons before anyway yeah so I'd learnt to just and I was always using my left foot anyway but they told you off the data he doesn't like using his left foot you can show him down left and I'm just I'm going to swing it anyway bang use that to your advantage but
obviously you were part of the treble winning team um good was that maybe your first or second season? First season. First season.
So I joined in March.
Yeah.
And then that was the first full season.
Treble winning season. I'm just curious. I always ask people this because I'm a big collector of football memorabilia. Do you still have all your medals?
My dad has most of them, my stuff. There's a really nice house in the Caribbean with loads of shirts and memorabilia.
Yeah. because you see the amount of guys I speak to and they're just like just gave it away to this guy and all that and you're like fuck my shirts I did
I need boots and stuff like that yeah but I've got I've got a couple of things there's two of them my dad's got them yeah my dad's got them I found my one from Villa we lost it in the final but I found that one my dad's got the other ones still got my England Germany shirt
I've got Xavi yeah so I've got a few shirts but not loads you end up giving a lot of stuff away like you're saying out of the all of the stuff you've collected over the years from other players who's the prized shirt or whatever you've got Rivaldo Barcelona yeah he's what a player
I lost it as well well I say I lost it I'm thinking where is that shirt I'm sure I've had that shirt and I'm thinking where is it I go to the Caribbean it's on the wall in my dance I didn't even know that he took it
Was your dad like a big football fan or was he just keeping that for you?
He likes football, yeah, he's a big football fan, but he just keeps it. Just, yeah, keeps it. Yeah. Now the boys are playing, they're all over the walls now.
And you're bombed out. You're just getting taken off. New generation. That's one. So, yeah, obviously...
played with Mike alone and stuff obviously if you look out there people say you probably didn't score enough goals would that be an unfair criticism of you because you've done a lot of work yeah it's not even about the work you find your own niche and you work with that we won trophies yeah there are a lot of people with 100-200 goals and not won a thing yeah we all laud them but not won a thing yeah I'd gone from I went to four six league cup finals yeah I went to the 97 them. 99, 2000, 2001, 2003, and I think 2010 or 2019. Finals, League Cup finals.
Yeah.
So I was winning stuff. Yeah. And for me, that was what it was about. Not necessarily about all this, oh, you look at my individual accolades, yes, it's great, but you're a team that needs to win something. When I first came to Liverpool, I didn't realise I hadn't won anything since 95.
Yeah.
bad winter three cup three league cup finals in that time and people might say oh league cup it's a final yeah it's a trophy it's a trophy yeah so for me it was about winning stuff I don't really feed into I must score 20 goals and I must do this and I must do that first season was brilliant yeah but you learn your own niche and where you where you fit within that ecosystem yeah I know I think too many people are critical of certain players like.
because I've got a brother-in-law that plays up the road and people, he's a big guy as well and he does well for the team but the fans are like, yeah, you fucking lazy bandit.
The thing is, who are you trying to, are you looking after the manager? Yeah. Or are you looking after everyone else? Yeah. The manager tells you what to do, you do. That's why I always step back with my sons and I look at them, what are they doing? Why are they doing this? I don't know what he's told them. So I can't criticise them. For all I know, and especially the eldest one,
when I speak to the coach they love him because he does exactly what they tell him to do and they absolutely love him and he gets played every single time and I'm thinking why don't you do this why don't you do that but I don't know what they've told him yeah so that's something you felt like even watching your kid you had to have some form of restraint yeah yeah I leave him it's not my career I've got to say because you see a lot of the parents at the side like if you do this and if you do that this is a mistake yeah
Because football as well, especially at that level, right? Football, kids football, it's supposed to be fun.
Yeah.
It's supposed to be laughing. It's supposed to be joking. It's supposed to be trying stuff. Not looking over, looking over and worried that he's not happy with you or something. It's supposed to be fun.
I thought you said something interesting about, you know, when we are playing for big clubs like Liverpool, it's all about winning.
Yeah.
You need to understand the fan that just won trophies at the end of the season.
Yeah.
End of. And the manager wants to win.
And he says that. It's a must. It's a must. You must win.
Yeah. Yeah. Just, just, just the, I remember when we had the chat, how many times Gerard really said to us, we have to win. Be a winner a week in, a week out. Because you're playing for Liverpool.
You never lose three in a row. No, never lose two in a row. Never lose three.
It's a good team.
And I've come from Leicester, we're going five or six.
He was really worried after the, after each international break.
yeah the tough ones because your head was coming from everywhere and your mentality's all over the place you were spanking where are you where are you oh god but just a little bit more on Liverpool when you joined who was the kind of main character in that dressing room because that was a dressing room probably Cara
Cara yeah even though he was young at the time because I came when he was 20 and he's the same age as me but he's a Scouse lad and Scouses are you Loud. Yeah. They're funny though. He was probably the main character. We didn't really have loads of...
Gary Mack?
No, but Gary...
In a different way.
Yeah. Gary was the senior figure that held everyone together. We were young lads and you could imagine we would... If you didn't control us, we'd be running all over the place.
Did you? Did he?
He was good. Them two were brilliant in the midfield.
Yeah.
I think Gary Mack was one of the best ones though, because as a senior player, you've got to control everyone. Yeah. I'm 20. I was 19 and a half. I was 22. Kara's 22. Michael's 19. Stevie's 18 at the time. Yeah. So you've got to control all these players and make sure they're pulling them in, not just running all over the place.
Yeah.
And he was brilliant. And he was at the front of all the running. So you're looking at him like 36 at the time. I'm like, I'm a 22 year old at the back. Yeah.
the old man is running it but everyone talks about Gary Mack at Liverpool amazing man dumb guy that we've had on the we've had a few Liverpool guys and his name comes up regularly and he's one that I would have never
thought like but this is the genius of
Gerald Houliard because 36 years old you're not going by 36 yeah he was smart signing yeah he knew exactly what we needed to bring everything together yeah but moving on to your England career obviously you had a phenomenal England career but winning your first cap for the first team was that when you were at Liverpool? Leicester Leicester you got a cap when you were at Leicester that's phenomenal as well what was it like
walking into that team because again you must have been overawed with that oh yeah yeah you are at first but like I we go back I'm lucky because I played at 16s so you understand what it means and the quality that you need in training in the games because I did it at 16s yep and then you do 18s 21s and anything so you understand when you go up to the big boys it's even quicker you you kid you not you could ring your shirt when you finish training that's the intensity that you're playing at every game every training session is harder than the games yep because everyone seems like they're trying to impress but no it was it was really good at first it's a bit daunting that you're going in and Ian Wright's sat there Andy Cole's sat there Shira's sat there you're like what what's this
And... I would have just walked out when I'm not getting a game out of these guys.
But it was a great experience to be around them and put yourself up against them and know you've always got to challenge yourself and that was my thing. I was always challenging myself okay, where do I fit within this? What can I show that's different to you? Played against Argentina and what's his name? The ex-Leeds manager. The one who used to sit on the cooler.
The old guy? Yes, sir.
Yeah, yeah. He was the manager of Argentina at the time. And it's funny because I was on the flight and a guy came up to me and said, oh, you got me sacked. I was like a part-time scout for the Argentina team, but I was doing ESPN as well. So I used to do ESPN, watch the Premier League, blah, blah. And he said that I was, Bielsa told him, what do you make a Hesky? He's supposed to be starting. He said, no, no, he won't start. It'll be Kevin Phillips, blah, because no no he's starting we've heard it's like no he's not good enough he's can't he can't run then within so i started and within 20 minutes they had to pull their captain off because you know back then i just used to run down the channels and just i just knocked the ball and run yeah and i was this size no one's gonna stop me and yeah just absolutely murdered them and then he said i'd never call me back again obviously you talk about your size uh and stuff like that Did you work? or were you just playing a lot I was naturally big if you see my family yeah yeah I was naturally big I was in the gym but I had I had to be careful in the gym because I could get too big yeah I had to be very specific in the gym with what I was doing but yeah I was in because I'd been in the gym from 14, 15 yeah working because my dad used to work in like a youth centre and I'd just go there play football and then go in the gym with everyone else as a kid you
so yeah I did a fair bit of gym work but my family are big both sides more my dad fair enough fair enough you can get away with it but we need to talk about the game you mentioned you've still got the jersey the 5-1 Germany game and you scored the 5th goal can you talk us through What that would be like, beating Germany 5-1. Well,
the build-up was tough because, again, we lost the last game at the Old Wembley. Did he score? Did the handman score a free kick? So it's the last game at the Old Wembley and you're losing to your rivals. Kevin Keegan decided to step down after the game.
Yeah, correct.
He says he can't do it anymore, blah, blah.
I remember this, yeah.
And then we go to their backyard. They hadn't lost in 50-plus games at home. And then they go 1-0 up as well. It's Sven's first, I think it's Sven's first competitive game. We go 1-0 down after seven minutes. Dave Seaman makes another save and it's like, could have been 2-0. I think we just scored, Sven was brilliant. Like Gerrard, very tactical, bring a board out and start moving all these pieces around. You're looking at it and you're saying, okay, I understand where I need to be. Give you the freedom when you're on the board to do whatever you want.
Yeah.
But when you're defensively, you need to be doing this, this, this, this, and this. I was like, fine. So we scored at key times. Michael scored, Stevie scored just before halftime. And you'll know.
There's times in the game where managers say, your focus has got to be 10-10, just before half-time and just after half-time. And we scored at them two times. We scored to make it 2-1, and they probably deserved to either be ahead or at least draw in. And we went in 2-1 up, come back after 3-1, finished.
So you scored the fifth goal. Where does that...
rank amongst your career highlights was that i think one of the biggest ones the reason i say that is it's it's it's a game that everyone knows yeah i go everywhere literally everywhere i had a one i've got so many good stories as well i had one kid i went to watch my son play and one kid sat in front of me and he after a half time he turned around said thank you for that game blah I'm looking at him thinking, howdy. It's a memory from when he was with his granddad.
Yeah.
Another one, him and his dad were watching the game. Went 1-0 down. His dad was out fuming. He didn't watch the game. He just stormed out and left. Didn't watch the game. Another one where a guy had a ticket and on the same day, he's supposed to be a groom at his brother's wedding.
Yeah.
He's like, what do I do? All these things. People have some wonderful stories, but it's a game that everyone remembers.
Yeah. And I'm just curious to your answer to this question. Obviously, you played with some amazing players. Who was your favourite England player to play with?
Michael.
Michael,
yeah, yeah, Michael. Favourite player, player?
Yeah.
Probably Stevie. Favourite forward, Michael.
Yeah.
But Wazza was close. Wazza was brilliant because... I know what he wants to do. He loves getting on the ball, Wayne Rooney.
Yeah.
Loves getting on the ball. So what my job is, create space for him to get on the ball.
Yeah.
So I make him runs to deter defenders from going into the number 10 spot.
Yeah.
To create space for him to go and get on it, turn and start dribbling and doing what he's doing.
Yeah.
And then I'm there to hold the ball up, knock it back to him and then let him play. He was, yeah, he was phenomenal as well.
He's one of my favourites. Michael won the Ballon d'Or.
Yeah. Oh, I was at Liverpool. Yeah.
You know why you want the Ballon d'Or also? Because of Emil Wark.
Yeah.
I'm pretty sure. Yeah, because he scored beautiful goals, but the movement you made for him.
Yeah, I think creating space. You understand? Yeah. That goes both ways as well. So I think for Michael, as long as you're working with him, he's going to be, if you're doing. You've got too many forwards, they work in separate, they don't work together.
Yeah.
I was all about working and I grew up in an environment where you've got to work together.
Yeah.
So my thing was, how do I gel with this player?
Yeah.
And that's how, and he was, again, he was a phenomenal player.
This year he was on fire.
Yeah, he was phenomenal.
Yeah. But would you say a lot of other guys now are just in it for themselves? Like, want to score more goals?
It's not just now. Or always? Yeah, it's been like that for, for, Forever, really. You've got some players who will lose a game. See, I've done my job, I've scored two.
Yeah.
You've lost a game.
Yeah.
That doesn't make sense in my head.
Yeah.
But it might be because I'm from an environment that is winning and losing is key. We could get relegated. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. It's all about fighting at Leicester. As you see what's happening there now. You need players who are ready to put it down and fight.
Yeah. No, I mean, we were talking about that result on the way down as well. They're getting beat 4-0 off Oxford. And you've still got a good squad there.
At home.
Yeah. That was a proper shocker.
You said they've got a good squad. They've got a lot of young players, which is needed.
Yeah.
But you need some... We're talking about Gary Mack.
Yeah.
You need senior players that can help them.
Yeah.
They're going to give you all, these kids. They're going to give you all. But at some stage, they might come up against it where they need someone else to... to help galvanise them and help them get through this game yeah
I haven't seen that yet when you're young you've got the legs yeah when you get older you think you know you think about the game yeah when you're young you don't think too much about this just want to play and show to the manager you can prove you're good enough to stay in the team yeah so I'm just curious see Leicester is the Thai guy still involved yes he's still there still the owners yeah I didn't know
there's a hell of a drop in it the thing is you overspend it comes back to haunt you yeah they should never have been relegated with the squad that they had they should never have been relegated yeah but then you are relegated and then then you've got to figure out how are we going to consolidate we cannot afford to keep paying these wages we can't afford to have these players just sitting around yeah so then you just you start slowly tearing the squad apart yeah bring young lads in which they have we've got some fantastic young lads to be fair we've sold some Trey Nyhoney's gone to Liverpool yeah Munger's gone to Man City he's now he's in Swansea Motsey just left he's gone to Man City as well you so they sold they actually are producing but none of them actually get to the first yeah but going back to the England thing yep you obviously played with some phenomenal players but if you had to pick because it's a question that comes up in every podcast
Stevie G Frank Lampard or Paul Scholes if you could only pick one Stevie
Stevie yeah yeah yeah Stevie but Scholes was brilliant Lamp as well Lamps as well they were all phenomenal players you can't take away from what they've all done yeah Scholes was brilliant Stevie because I played longer with him and at the end of the day he can take a game by the scruff of the neck on his own and change it I don't know if the others can do that on their own just take the ball and go and do something yeah they'll obviously need others to be contributing in that
Stevie just give him the ball let him do his thing manager wise you obviously work with various different managers who was you the best one that understood you the best
Martin O'Neill and Gerald Holier I can't I can't take away one if I'm honest with them two Martin gave me the the freedom to do what I was good at and what I wanted which was get the ball turn run with the ball I remember I remember I can't remember who he played but I remember getting the ball controlling it laying it back to Robbie Savage he took a touch and then gave it away managed to go to me i'm like what's that what's he having to go to me for and then come yeah what are you doing that for i'm like i just gave him the balls he says what is he gonna do that you can't i looked at him and just get the ball turn and run i went yeah you're right so and then the funny thing with with martin he didn't coach didn't do any of the coaching but man management had a group of lads that would run for a bit orphan yeah And that's what he's getting at Celtic now. He's given up the job, then he has to come back and galvanise him again, then give it up again, then come back and do it again. It's down to, there's a place for management, there's a place to get the players on your side. Then there's a place for coaches. Yeah. Coaching. Yeah. And understanding the tactics and all that. That's not him.
Yeah.
He's the other part of it.
Did O'Neill ever give the kind of fear factor? I don't know, Martin O'Neill, did he ever give people the fear factor?
He was horrible. He wasn't nice.
because he worked with Cluffy and stuff I would always imagine guys like Cluffy you would shit yourself you'd be like fuck no one wanted to ask him any questions no one wanted to go into his office all they wanted to do was keep him happy and once you kept him happy he'd keep you happy and
a lot of the time when you keep players happy what is it days off and stuff like that he was brilliant at that giving lads days off understanding what they needed for their families and stuff like that staff at the training ground Not one of them has a bad word to say about Martin.
Jeez.
No, understands when their birthday is, when their kid's birthday is. I'm talking about cleaners. I'm talking about chefs. I'm talking about all them people.
Yeah.
They all love him. But he was brilliant. And Gerald was similar. Gerald understood the one-on-one with the players.
Yeah.
Understood that. And then obviously tactically, he was a different level.
Did you ever have a bust up with any of those managers?
Martin.
Martin.
Yeah. But that was later on. Yeah. Aston Villa.
Yeah.
Yeah, it was later on. But yeah, when you get older, you've got your own way of saying stuff and portraying it. So yeah, it just wasn't, we didn't click. But he still picked me.
Yeah.
Yeah, he still picked me. I still wanted to run for a bit more for him. I have nothing bad to say about him.
I think if you are clearer as a manager, you're understanding. From the age to 20 to 24, you do what you want with the player.
Yeah.
From 24 to 28, the player show you, boss, you need me. Yeah. And after 29, 30 years old, this is where the player come back toward the manager, you know? Yeah. You know, it's nearly the end. Yeah. So it's, that's why, you know, if you're a good manager, if you understand this.
Martin was brilliant. Martin, we had a good, especially at Villa, we had a really, really good group. We just didn't have... It was that little bit that we just lacked. We were trying to break into the top four. We finished top six every year.
Yeah.
We're just slowly trying to break in.
After Liverpool, you went on to Birmingham. and obviously Wigan, Villa, Newcastle, Jets and Bolton I want to touch on onwards after Liverpool what made you decide to move on?
I'd been told by the then CEO that Cissé was coming in and I had to leave I said no, no, I'll fight for my place because the reality is I knew that I would have played the way that I play, you need a player like that because you would have been that old 26 yeah 26 but I was told no I won't play and then there becomes that point where you're like if I'm being told I'm not going to play what am I going to do just sit there and collect money yeah I said no no let me just go and play some football somewhere no disrespect to Birmingham but they came in Steve Bruce sat down with Steve Bruce in my house and he talked me through everything and I went there started well In the sense of, it was tough. Because I've gone from being with Stevie, being with these guys, who, football is football, but when you're in it, you realise who's top and who's level and who's just a footballer. I would think at Liverpool, you've got to play forward. You've got to wrap balls in, everything's got to be done quick and crisp. I'm making runs and no one's even looked up.
Yeah.
So, yeah. I'd gone from that where I'm getting Stevie G just wrapping balls into me. I've got to be alert and control it on the chest, on whatever, however I've got to control it. I've got to control it. To now, everyone's going side to side and I'm just stood there thinking, I'm making runs but no one's even looked up. So I had to adjust there. And then we'd gone from being, I think Birmingham's been up there now three, four seasons now. And I think they were trying to transition into something different.
Yeah.
Better. But it wasn't, we got a load of players in and it just didn't fit who we were. The best player was Damian Johnson who worked. And when you know, when your best player is like that, then you know all these other players that you're buying, they're not going to, they're not going to fit.
Yeah.
It just didn't fit. And then went on to Wigan, which was good actually. Wigan is a strange one because there's zero pressure. We had an amazing team. Valencia, Palacios, Mario Melchior, myself, Titus Bramble, Chris Kirkland. We had some good players. Mano Figueroa, we had some good, really, really good players and we did okay. But then it becomes a point where a bid will be put on the table and you're at a club that will just go. put another 50 grand on that put another 100 grand on that do you know what I mean so Valencia left Palacios left I left yeah it just started slowly started to take away the essence of what you got there nah I reckon they went through a period where I thought they wouldn't we wouldn't FA Cup at all yeah back to Villa would you always say was Roy Keane there as well no
I didn't know if Roy Keane was following him around at that point or not. No, I think that was a bit later.
But that was national team.
Yeah, that's right. I think
Paul Lambert brought in Roy Keane, I believe.
Yeah, that was it. But Villa going from Birmingham, Wigan, then you're going back to a big, big club like that. A big club again. Was that, again, a different expectation? Oh yeah,
100%. But I was ready for it again. Yeah. By the way, I forced my way back into the national team at Wigan. I think I was the first Wigan player to play for England.
Yep.
I know Kirky did it, but he was on loan from Liverpool at the time. So yeah, made my way back into the national team. So I played and then moved to Villa. Huge club. I'm from Leicester, so I know what the size of the club means and everything. But it was nice to go back into that environment where you're playing European football. Your expectation is super high.
Yeah.
The pressures of that. You live for that, to be honest. I know people say no, but you actually do live for that.
Yeah. And obviously, after that, you went to Bolton. What was that like as a club? Because they weren't... You're struggling. Yeah,
they were struggling at that point. So I was actually training at Blackburn. Paul Robinson got me in to help me get just training, training with the 21s. And, um, I think, so there's a guy that does a lot of media, used to do a lot of media stuff at Leicester. And, uh, he's friends with Lenny, friends with Gary Parker and all them. And he's gone, Parks wants you to come up, um, come and train with Bolton, blah, And I went, yeah, no problem. So I went to go and train with Bolton and then. One minute I go from Blackburn to go and train with Bolton, and he goes, oh, do you fancy playing in a game with 21's game on tomorrow? Yeah, no problem. Went and played on that. Played 45 minutes. Hadn't played for a while. Played 45 minutes. Okay, do you fancy signing? Yeah, no problem. Signed, first game, Blackburn, at home, scored. But I'd been training with Blackburn for three weeks, four weeks? Yeah. nothing came of it I was just training with him and then obviously went to Bolton and then played but it was because of Lenny that got me in there to be fair which was good it was just tough because there was no money promised this promised that I think Lenny was looking at all these players and agreeing like they can have this and they can have that and they were saying no you can't have that but you can have this free player yeah Yeah. that's football though sometimes but the reality is if you're being honest with the manager he'll be able to figure that out he'll be able to figure out but the fact that you keep telling him yes you can have that you can have that and then pulling the rug from under his feet not good but obviously
you had a phenomenal playing career I want to know who was the toughest guy you came up against defender wise who you hated playing against I didn't hate playing against anyone to be honest with you I just loved the challenge
I loved Bye. Challengers Sol Campbell was tough Yeah Sol was very tough Big boy Yeah And then Walter Samuel Was one of the toughest God He was at Roma When we played Roma Yes
Oh my goodness Was he not a dirty
Bandit as well I think so Yeah Well it came out later Yeah It came out later That yeah
He was a dirty guy Yeah But yeah Let's not talk about that
Yeah Yeah so them two They were just Tough tough tough defenders strong powerful everything so yeah they would be my toughest toughest and out of your playing career who was your funniest teammate I think Cara Cara yeah Cara Jamie Cara funny yeah he was funny Peggy was Peggy was Peggy off exit I had him at Leicester as well and he was good he was funny but yeah there was
Mike Pollitt yeah when I was up wigging with him he's from Bolton just nuts was Bullard at wigging at that time just left just left because he comes across quite a funny guy as well yeah him and apparently him and
Mike Pollitt together yeah
Jesus yeah talking about stuff like that what was the best dressing room prank that you've ever seen And from who? There must have been some...
No, no, no, loads of... No, I didn't... I had one at youth team, which was probably a bad one. And we did it to one lad who got arachnophobia. And we took his sock off and we turned it inside out and put a spider in and then tied it. You know, you mess about with people's shoes and tying knots and all that. So he thought the actual joke was the tying of the knot in his sock. yeah so he's untied and then he's put his hand in and his kid you know he's like this oh man and he locked himself in the boot room never came out he didn't come out for the rest of the day or something like that he was just in there and when you look back you're like that's quite bad isn't it because that is serious oh yeah yeah serious stuff isn't it so yeah that's proper trauma yeah
that's not good I would be the same with a rat or anything I've got like a phobia do you understand and imagine you put your hand in a grub yeah that would give me the cold fear in fact I remember there was a guy on I'm a Celeb a guy called Dean Gaffney who used to be in and see the fear in his face when he was touching like rats or whatever in there you just seen
the fucking fear see this is the thing with that I'm a celebrity don't go in I can't do all that I just couldn't do it no you
You'd never ever, not even for a couple of million?
No. No. You guys got to swear. And the funny thing, my dad could do anything. He'd put his hand in anything.
Yeah.
Yeah, a snake. We went to Florida Disney World. Yeah. We had a house and we had all the family there and all that. This was going back probably about 20 years.
Yeah.
And he's seen a snake and he just went after the snake. I'm like, what are you going after the snake for? You don't even know what snake that is.
Yeah.
He just dived in there to try and pull this snake out. Like, Jesus.
Ah, it's fucking dangerous stuff. Nah, I'm a bit of a pussy when it comes to stuff like that. But... So you would never do it, but what does Emil Heskey do nowadays? Because I know you were involved in the women's team at Leicester. Yeah,
I was involved in the women's team at Leicester for a little bit and the boys on the 18s. So I was coaching there a bit. Boys were getting serious, so you want to watch them more. So I'm watching them, media work, keeping myself busy in that sense.
And we need to talk about, you're still playing football at this age as well. We were speaking about it before the podcast, but um How's the body holding up playing in these games?
Joining the game, not too bad. The week after, not so great. But no, it's just great to be out there at times. I've joined up with Insure again, signed up, so, but I can choose when I want to.
Yeah.
When I play. But yeah, it's just great. Sometimes, you know, it's great to be out there and just enjoy playing. When you see the injury to Steve and then you're like, oh, is that football?
Is he still out?
He's still out, yeah. Yeah.
So I've seen that Stephen Ireland broke his leg or whatever it was, a right bad one.
Tip and fib, I think.
Jesus.
So, yeah, it was not great. But yeah, when you see that, you're like second guessing it. But when you get out there, you just love playing that, going out there and playing. But you want a bit of fun.
Yeah.
I've done all the serious side of it. I just want to enjoy myself.
Do you find playing at that level People are still going, I'm going to get him, I'm going to give him one.
But that's part and parcel of it at times, you know what I mean? You've got to be sensible with it. I'm not going in flying into tackles and saying I'm not 20 anymore. So I've got to look after myself as well.
Yeah. And see that team, is it just full of ex-professionals now? No, no, no. At the start, the starting line-up from the weekend's game, I was telling you Bartley was at the back. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm looking through that team going... Man, that's a bit much George Boyd in the left wing and all that. This is ridiculous. But I'm like, is there any random guys that are just off the street playing there?
Yeah, yeah, we've got some local lads. Yeah. You get some local lads but then you obviously get the lads who want to just come and enjoy a game of football. Mine, I figure, I was injured at the minute so it would be him and Barkley at the back.
Yeah. Is Valencia still playing?
He comes every now and again. He lives in Ecuador or wherever. Oh,
does he just come over for the odd game when he's over? Yeah,
when he comes over,
yeah. But yeah, who put that team together? Was it Stephen Island?
It was Stephen. So on, I think, Tuesdays, we were playing seven-a-side anyway.
Yeah.
So we'd just get together, play seven-a-side, mess about, blah, give a bit of fitness. And then it just, I don't know, excelled into that. I don't know how. You must know the owner of the club. And they said, oh yeah, come and play. Bring so-and-so. Bring this player, bring that player. Yeah. And then you just end up, yeah. Everyone just loves playing football, so you end up with a full team of ex-players. Drinkwater, he can still play.
Yeah, he can't be that old, eh?
He's like, he'll be 37, 38. But he's like this. Honestly, he can get around the pitch and everything. Brilliant.
Yeah. Who's the top guy there just now in that team?
Probably him or Papacito. Pap scores goals. Scores goals there.
scoring goals every week I just see it all all the time on TikTok another one for him you're like jeez he could still probably play just looking at his building stuff but anyway we have had probably enough of your time so I don't want to hold you up for much longer but it has been an absolute pleasure to hear some of your stuff and yeah hopefully you keep scoring goals maybe need to try and catch a game one day rather than watching it on TikTok
but I appreciate it thank you thank you thank you thank you always thank you
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In this episode Emile Heskey is the guest and we go through some of the stories from his playing career.
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Transcription
and Stolz gets forward, he's got Heskey on for the pass, England are in again, it's Emil Heskey
It's five Welcome to today's podcast where we're joined by legend Emil Heskey, it's an absolute pleasure to have you Emil Thank you, thank you for having me And Greg as well, thank you, Greg sorted all this out so gotta give him a shout out as well but Emil obviously we were just talking about youth football there and I want to just start with that because obviously you've got a couple of kids who are playing Man City are they both still at Man City?
No the ones the eldest ones on loan at Sheffield Wednesday and the younger ones now playing for Cologne in
Germany Nice and was that because we were obviously talking there about progression you
progression was that something you had an influence on as well yeah I think more down to the agent and then obviously the player himself my son wants to play football yeah and at some stage you've got to break in he's now going to be 19 soon the younger one so he needs to actually play regularly he doesn't want to be left out left behind and you've got players now who are 18 19 they've got 100 games under their belt yeah and you're there as a and there's an emerging talent and in the top ranking of this and the top ranking of that and you've got two yeah at some stage he's got a match up so and then the elder one he was on loan at
Sheffield Wednesday last season absolutely loved it fans were great tough season for them anyway but now went back and hopefully can try and push for promotion this year yeah that's I would agree like what we were talking about earlier just getting getting those guys first team games is always important But I want to start, obviously, with your career and where it all started. Leicester?
Yes.
Who was the manager at Leicester at that point? Was it Mark or Neil?
Mark McGee.
Mark McGee, jeez.
So when I made my debut, it was Mark McGee. Brian Little was there. I'd done a little bit of training with them then, because when I left school at 16, you joined YTS. did a little bit of training with the first team then, but then he left for Villa, I think it was, and then Mark McGee came in.
Yeah. Mark McGee, what was he like to work under?
Really good. Really good. Forward. So everything was geared to us looking good. You know, we did all our sessions just like forward sessions, so really good. But I played 18s football for the first, say, six months or something like that from when I left school at 16 and then joined with them.
Yeah. Um, and who, what was Neil Lennon and stuff at that? The club came later with,
with, um, Martin and Neil.
Yeah.
So let me try and think who was there at the time. David Lowe. Um, I'm not even sure. Ewan Roberts was, I think Ewan might've been there already. Colin Hill.
Matty Elliott there as well. No, they come later. Is that after as well? Yeah, they come later. Jesus Christ.
and big matt yell it was a yeah he's a beast proper beast yeah we had we had a strong strong backbone we did we had him spencer prior uh steve walsh uh joe taggart we had some beasts yeah and were you from leicester born and raised in leicester yeah came through the ranks and i started there at nine so it was like a center of excellence so you train on tuesday and thursday nights there's 50 kids running around and then Throughout the years, they whittle it down till you get to your 16s. And then that's the key moment of whether you're going to go into what was a YTS, which was, you know, it was a youth training.
Yeah.
So it was a government thing then. So you get £35 the first year and £42 something, £42.50 or something like that the second year. So I was playing my first year of football on £42.
50 Jesus Christ 100 it's weird because I got that like when I left school I was they said what do you want to be and I'm like a mechanic I just wanted a car a mechanic and I got 40 quid skill secret it was called yeah you get that so
it's kind of like it's like work experience isn't it yeah so it was so yeah first year was 35 it's interesting so I've just come off a tour with some of the lads and some of them are older and theirs was you Their second year was 35. The first year was 27 something. So then our first year was 35.
Yeah.
Next year was 42 something. Then the next one was 45.
And did you ever like see if you were getting a sniff of the first team or anything? Did it go up or were you still on that? No,
no, you were on that because that's my contract. And then I wasn't allowed to sign, because I got in at 17. So you weren't allowed to sign a pro contract until you were 18. That played my first full season, well, half a season on 40 to something.
Value for money back then, eh? And when you came into the team at that age, was there any particular senior guy that took you under the...
We had so many good ones. Walshie was the main one. Steve Walsh was our captain. He'd been there, Jesus, I was a kid when I was watching Walshie play. Do you know what I mean? So he'd been there for a long time. He was our captain, our talisman. He was the one that really looked after all the young lads. I still stayed in the youth changing rooms. I didn't really want to go into the changing rooms. You go from cleaning everyone's boots and then knocking on the door and have to wait for someone to come in. Then going in there, it didn't really sit well. So I just stayed with the youth team and that. But yeah, Walshie was the main one. He's the man around town.
Yeah. And obviously you've done well at Leicester and want to jump over to getting the move to Liverpool. How did that come about?
There's several different facets of it. So I think they'd been watching me for a while. There's a tournament called Keele. At Keele University, they used to have a tournament every year. where all the teams, a lot of the teams, Blackburn, Liverpool, all there. We went there as Leicester, obviously. Played there, and I think at 16, there was interest in me, and I'd played England in the 16s as well. But then I broke into Leicester, there was a lot of interest from Blackburn, et cetera. I broke into Leicester, and I was like, look, I want to play here. I was happy to play. And then England under 18s tournament, Euros in France. Gerald Houllier was the manager of France under 18s. Henri Trezeguet, Anelka, Darbol, Scalas, Silvestre, Cissé. We ended up going to West Ham for a little bit. Players like that playing. And it was me and Michael up front. And then he'd seen me there and that's when he said, all right, and when he comes, I'm the player that he wants to bring you. So I was available after that.
Not bad at all. And you mentioned Michael there. Obviously, he went to Liverpool and obviously formed that partnership with Michael there.
It's one of those partnerships that just clicks. Yeah. It just works. I can't explain why it works. It just works. Under-18s England, me and him together, everything just ticked really well. Some of the stuff that I'm not so good at, he's brilliant at. he's not so good at it and brilliant at it and it just it just worked so well worked well together from then under 18 Michael's two years younger than me so he's playing with my age group there then we went to the 21s I think Michael played one game at the 21s then went and jumped up into the first team and then it was just a progression really and
Michael as a as a player obviously done really really well but would you say he was one of the the best partners you ever had?
favourite partner yeah just worked really well everything understanding he's a brilliant player though yeah he's a great player so it helps you as well he takes a little bit of the burden off you as well who made who look good is the question he was he was outstanding and the thing is I don't think he gets the recognition that he should do from the
brilliance that he is yeah because I think a lot of people just see him as this kind of old injury prone guy like obviously in a lot of parts of his career when I'm like
No, Just carries games. The thing is with Michael, and people don't really, and I don't think he's even mentioned it, Michael would be wheeled out injured for us. Yeah. Go and score and then come off. Yeah, it's true. Yeah. Then you look, and we're all sitting here as ex-players and we creak when we get up and you can imagine how he's feeling now where he's put his body, what he's had to put his body through week in, week out to try and get results for a team that he loves.
And Obviously prior to going to Liverpool, was there other teams sniffing around as well?
There was quite a few. I had Roma, Dortmund, Villa, Spurs,
Chelsea. Not a bad amount.
I think it was a perfect move for him and for Liverpool.
I think it was a... So when I came through Leicester, the five years I played at Leicester I went to Wembley four times. Playoff final and three League Cup finals. So the next stage for me was, okay, I'm at a club that I'm, I'm raised. I can do more or less what I want.
Yeah.
Um, I need to figure out what is next. for me here or do I don't take that next step where I'm challenging for league titles I'm challenging for other other clubs Champions League football all this sort of all this sort of playing against the elite so the next step was that for me and I was what 22 it's interesting because everyone thought that I was like 26 27 when I joined I was 22 just turned 22 when I had when I'd left Leicester to go and join Liverpool still a young lad but I the next step for me was what did it look like challenging for league, winning FA Cup, going to the Champions League or UEFA Cup. Yeah. And going and challenging and winning that sort of stuff. What does it look like? How is it? What sort of football? What's the tempo? Playing every three to four days. There was one year where we played and I kid you not, we played something like Sunday, Tuesday, Friday, Sunday.
Yeah.
It was just so many games just crammed in and we talk about a lot of games now the season we won the treble we played 63 games 63
63 65 65 63,
65 games I played 59 games oh man which is the travelling yeah and the travelling is the worst to be fair you're going flying here and trying to come back and then you're not really sleeping well and then you're trying to take a sleeping tablet to make sure you get a good sleep and then you don't get your food that you want and stuff like that it's not easy and what was the you
If you were advising, obviously, a young guy, what's the difference of playing for a Leicester where you were the main man to go into a club like Liverpool? You know,
it's learning. It's all about learning. I was lucky because I played with a national team. So I'd come through Leicester's ranks where it's about fighting, it's about battling. You've got to chase that person. You've got to tackle there. You've got to run back. You've got to try and win ahead of there. That bodes you well when you go into a bigger team because you've got that fight about you, but then you've got to learn how to control the ball. You've got to learn how to pass it there. But I'd been with the national team.
Yeah.
So I learned that with the national team as well.
Yeah.
You can't be giving away the ball. You can't. You can't. You've got to hold up that ball. You've got to understand what runs to make, when to make the runs, when to hold it up, when to look in behind. All this stuff, you actually learn on the job. Yeah. You learn a lot on the job.
That's it. And were you at Liverpool when Emil joined?
One of my best mates.
Yeah.
It's funny because the first time when I came in, the old training ground I mean the old oh yeah yeah Melwood old Melwood we had a small gym you know and I used to go because Gerard he said to me oh you have to go to gym you need to be stronger and every time he mean was there you remember it's only him and me yeah
when you look at them old gyms it's just like one little round thing you know with the different stations and you're trying to push weights off that and you're looking at how big Liverpool is you're thinking what is this Then obviously we moved to the new Melwood.
New building was the key.
Yeah. Absolutely. It needed to be that.
It was the key to reach the success. But you're talking about the partnership with Michael. I mean, as a defender, you're facing the game. And for the fact we knew we would score goals with the lads because one was stronger, strong, hold the ball, you know, can destroy defender. The other one was smart, sharp. Yeah. So, I mean, it was unbelievable.
I think one thing as well, what we're losing a little bit within football now is the ability to use your body to hold the ball up. And what it means when you're holding the ball up for you.
The gimme time.
Yeah. If you keep playing the ball up to me and it keeps coming back, at some stage he's going to say, I'm not playing the ball to me no more. And then your whole vision of what the game looks like looks totally different.
Yeah.
So now we're losing that. Because we're usually playing with one up front and they don't really get involved now. We're playing with two. You have to work. You have to get across. You have to hold the ball up. You have to win a foul. Even winning a foul is brilliant because you can just...
You know who did that over the weekend? Sunderland.
Yeah.
They were losing 1-0 and Regis Lovie went two up front and they scored. This is where they had the penalty.
Yeah.
And of course, it's more difficult for the defenders, you know? And as a striker, you have to work hard a bit. Yeah. I think Gerard, we are...
I thought I had this in mind yeah to play you and Michael at front yeah but as well with that we changed it a little bit where defensive side one has to drop in so you make it a three in the midfield yeah and just leave the one up front just to shadow and now we changed it they do one up front but when they defend they go with two up front so yeah easier life but what what was who were you like as a manager for you I thought he was brilliant I thought tactically he was really really good you understanding the game. I'd gone from I don't know what it was like for you, but I'd gone from being at Leicester where we didn't really do much tactics. We had some really good players and it was about unity, fight, fight, fight, unity. Give the ball to Emil, he can run with the ball. Give it to Muzzi, he can chew a ball. Give it to Lenny, he can find that pass. Give it to Gopsy, he can cross the ball. That was what it was. So now learning about your position, learning about how we want to play. Don't give the ball away in these areas. Take risks in that area. I was taking risks everywhere.
Yeah.
But you learn a lot more and you sit there. When I first got to Liverpool, it was tough. I'd gone from no meeting, no team meetings, to sitting there, dark room, with this big screen, 45 minutes, going like this.
You were talking about that earlier as well.
But then you slowly, with the information coming in, you're slowly like, okay, yeah, what's next? We'd go to a point where I came through the youth team with Stuart Campbell. He was at Grimsby at the time and I'm watching. Us play Grimsby and I'm thinking, why are we going through, we're going through the substitutes.
Yep.
I'm like, I don't need to know anything about Grimsby. Just give me the ball, let me run it. But this is the mentality you need to, you need information.
Yeah. That said, we had a good conversation about that coming down, just the amount of data and everything.
It's a little bit too much now because again, you overload someone's brain with stuff and you take away the, this. spontaneity of just getting on the ball sometimes and doing something yeah you're telling them where to pass you're telling them what to do no what happened to just go and dribble in the ball putting your putting your body in the way of of you and uh of you and the player and then just going and dribbling yeah using your assets to your advantage we're losing that a little bit i think it will come back around obviously but we're losing that a little bit yeah no we
were talking about ai and tori bloom and you could like literally go emil hesky's last 200 games this is what he does that's what he does wrong and all that but like you say what happens to well I'll give you an example of that right so
Arsenal we play Arsenal at home what was it I got tackled went down the physio came on you know physio comes on you have to go on the side went on the side the ball the refs call me back on I come back on the ball comes straight to me I dribble the ball I'm going. take it on my left and score and what I noticed was they kept on showing me on my left but I'm fine with using my left it's not a problem they told they told them to show me on my left yeah but then I'd done that and scored yeah so
yeah there's only certain guys you can maybe say that to maybe like me I can't my left leg's only for standing on but the thing is
we all learn how to use it the more and more and I was I'd already I'd played left wing for most of the two seasons before anyway yeah so I'd learnt to just and I was always using my left foot anyway but they told you off the data he doesn't like using his left foot you can show him down left and I'm just I'm going to swing it anyway bang use that to your advantage but
obviously you were part of the treble winning team um good was that maybe your first or second season? First season. First season.
So I joined in March.
Yeah.
And then that was the first full season.
Treble winning season. I'm just curious. I always ask people this because I'm a big collector of football memorabilia. Do you still have all your medals?
My dad has most of them, my stuff. There's a really nice house in the Caribbean with loads of shirts and memorabilia.
Yeah. because you see the amount of guys I speak to and they're just like just gave it away to this guy and all that and you're like fuck my shirts I did
I need boots and stuff like that yeah but I've got I've got a couple of things there's two of them my dad's got them yeah my dad's got them I found my one from Villa we lost it in the final but I found that one my dad's got the other ones still got my England Germany shirt
I've got Xavi yeah so I've got a few shirts but not loads you end up giving a lot of stuff away like you're saying out of the all of the stuff you've collected over the years from other players who's the prized shirt or whatever you've got Rivaldo Barcelona yeah he's what a player
I lost it as well well I say I lost it I'm thinking where is that shirt I'm sure I've had that shirt and I'm thinking where is it I go to the Caribbean it's on the wall in my dance I didn't even know that he took it
Was your dad like a big football fan or was he just keeping that for you?
He likes football, yeah, he's a big football fan, but he just keeps it. Just, yeah, keeps it. Yeah. Now the boys are playing, they're all over the walls now.
And you're bombed out. You're just getting taken off. New generation. That's one. So, yeah, obviously...
played with Mike alone and stuff obviously if you look out there people say you probably didn't score enough goals would that be an unfair criticism of you because you've done a lot of work yeah it's not even about the work you find your own niche and you work with that we won trophies yeah there are a lot of people with 100-200 goals and not won a thing yeah we all laud them but not won a thing yeah I'd gone from I went to four six league cup finals yeah I went to the 97 them. 99, 2000, 2001, 2003, and I think 2010 or 2019. Finals, League Cup finals.
Yeah.
So I was winning stuff. Yeah. And for me, that was what it was about. Not necessarily about all this, oh, you look at my individual accolades, yes, it's great, but you're a team that needs to win something. When I first came to Liverpool, I didn't realise I hadn't won anything since 95.
Yeah.
bad winter three cup three league cup finals in that time and people might say oh league cup it's a final yeah it's a trophy it's a trophy yeah so for me it was about winning stuff I don't really feed into I must score 20 goals and I must do this and I must do that first season was brilliant yeah but you learn your own niche and where you where you fit within that ecosystem yeah I know I think too many people are critical of certain players like.
because I've got a brother-in-law that plays up the road and people, he's a big guy as well and he does well for the team but the fans are like, yeah, you fucking lazy bandit.
The thing is, who are you trying to, are you looking after the manager? Yeah. Or are you looking after everyone else? Yeah. The manager tells you what to do, you do. That's why I always step back with my sons and I look at them, what are they doing? Why are they doing this? I don't know what he's told them. So I can't criticise them. For all I know, and especially the eldest one,
when I speak to the coach they love him because he does exactly what they tell him to do and they absolutely love him and he gets played every single time and I'm thinking why don't you do this why don't you do that but I don't know what they've told him yeah so that's something you felt like even watching your kid you had to have some form of restraint yeah yeah I leave him it's not my career I've got to say because you see a lot of the parents at the side like if you do this and if you do that this is a mistake yeah
Because football as well, especially at that level, right? Football, kids football, it's supposed to be fun.
Yeah.
It's supposed to be laughing. It's supposed to be joking. It's supposed to be trying stuff. Not looking over, looking over and worried that he's not happy with you or something. It's supposed to be fun.
I thought you said something interesting about, you know, when we are playing for big clubs like Liverpool, it's all about winning.
Yeah.
You need to understand the fan that just won trophies at the end of the season.
Yeah.
End of. And the manager wants to win.
And he says that. It's a must. It's a must. You must win.
Yeah. Yeah. Just, just, just the, I remember when we had the chat, how many times Gerard really said to us, we have to win. Be a winner a week in, a week out. Because you're playing for Liverpool.
You never lose three in a row. No, never lose two in a row. Never lose three.
It's a good team.
And I've come from Leicester, we're going five or six.
He was really worried after the, after each international break.
yeah the tough ones because your head was coming from everywhere and your mentality's all over the place you were spanking where are you where are you oh god but just a little bit more on Liverpool when you joined who was the kind of main character in that dressing room because that was a dressing room probably Cara
Cara yeah even though he was young at the time because I came when he was 20 and he's the same age as me but he's a Scouse lad and Scouses are you Loud. Yeah. They're funny though. He was probably the main character. We didn't really have loads of...
Gary Mack?
No, but Gary...
In a different way.
Yeah. Gary was the senior figure that held everyone together. We were young lads and you could imagine we would... If you didn't control us, we'd be running all over the place.
Did you? Did he?
He was good. Them two were brilliant in the midfield.
Yeah.
I think Gary Mack was one of the best ones though, because as a senior player, you've got to control everyone. Yeah. I'm 20. I was 19 and a half. I was 22. Kara's 22. Michael's 19. Stevie's 18 at the time. Yeah. So you've got to control all these players and make sure they're pulling them in, not just running all over the place.
Yeah.
And he was brilliant. And he was at the front of all the running. So you're looking at him like 36 at the time. I'm like, I'm a 22 year old at the back. Yeah.
the old man is running it but everyone talks about Gary Mack at Liverpool amazing man dumb guy that we've had on the we've had a few Liverpool guys and his name comes up regularly and he's one that I would have never
thought like but this is the genius of
Gerald Houliard because 36 years old you're not going by 36 yeah he was smart signing yeah he knew exactly what we needed to bring everything together yeah but moving on to your England career obviously you had a phenomenal England career but winning your first cap for the first team was that when you were at Liverpool? Leicester Leicester you got a cap when you were at Leicester that's phenomenal as well what was it like
walking into that team because again you must have been overawed with that oh yeah yeah you are at first but like I we go back I'm lucky because I played at 16s so you understand what it means and the quality that you need in training in the games because I did it at 16s yep and then you do 18s 21s and anything so you understand when you go up to the big boys it's even quicker you you kid you not you could ring your shirt when you finish training that's the intensity that you're playing at every game every training session is harder than the games yep because everyone seems like they're trying to impress but no it was it was really good at first it's a bit daunting that you're going in and Ian Wright's sat there Andy Cole's sat there Shira's sat there you're like what what's this
And... I would have just walked out when I'm not getting a game out of these guys.
But it was a great experience to be around them and put yourself up against them and know you've always got to challenge yourself and that was my thing. I was always challenging myself okay, where do I fit within this? What can I show that's different to you? Played against Argentina and what's his name? The ex-Leeds manager. The one who used to sit on the cooler.
The old guy? Yes, sir.
Yeah, yeah. He was the manager of Argentina at the time. And it's funny because I was on the flight and a guy came up to me and said, oh, you got me sacked. I was like a part-time scout for the Argentina team, but I was doing ESPN as well. So I used to do ESPN, watch the Premier League, blah, blah. And he said that I was, Bielsa told him, what do you make a Hesky? He's supposed to be starting. He said, no, no, he won't start. It'll be Kevin Phillips, blah, because no no he's starting we've heard it's like no he's not good enough he's can't he can't run then within so i started and within 20 minutes they had to pull their captain off because you know back then i just used to run down the channels and just i just knocked the ball and run yeah and i was this size no one's gonna stop me and yeah just absolutely murdered them and then he said i'd never call me back again obviously you talk about your size uh and stuff like that Did you work? or were you just playing a lot I was naturally big if you see my family yeah yeah I was naturally big I was in the gym but I had I had to be careful in the gym because I could get too big yeah I had to be very specific in the gym with what I was doing but yeah I was in because I'd been in the gym from 14, 15 yeah working because my dad used to work in like a youth centre and I'd just go there play football and then go in the gym with everyone else as a kid you
so yeah I did a fair bit of gym work but my family are big both sides more my dad fair enough fair enough you can get away with it but we need to talk about the game you mentioned you've still got the jersey the 5-1 Germany game and you scored the 5th goal can you talk us through What that would be like, beating Germany 5-1. Well,
the build-up was tough because, again, we lost the last game at the Old Wembley. Did he score? Did the handman score a free kick? So it's the last game at the Old Wembley and you're losing to your rivals. Kevin Keegan decided to step down after the game.
Yeah, correct.
He says he can't do it anymore, blah, blah.
I remember this, yeah.
And then we go to their backyard. They hadn't lost in 50-plus games at home. And then they go 1-0 up as well. It's Sven's first, I think it's Sven's first competitive game. We go 1-0 down after seven minutes. Dave Seaman makes another save and it's like, could have been 2-0. I think we just scored, Sven was brilliant. Like Gerrard, very tactical, bring a board out and start moving all these pieces around. You're looking at it and you're saying, okay, I understand where I need to be. Give you the freedom when you're on the board to do whatever you want.
Yeah.
But when you're defensively, you need to be doing this, this, this, this, and this. I was like, fine. So we scored at key times. Michael scored, Stevie scored just before halftime. And you'll know.
There's times in the game where managers say, your focus has got to be 10-10, just before half-time and just after half-time. And we scored at them two times. We scored to make it 2-1, and they probably deserved to either be ahead or at least draw in. And we went in 2-1 up, come back after 3-1, finished.
So you scored the fifth goal. Where does that...
rank amongst your career highlights was that i think one of the biggest ones the reason i say that is it's it's it's a game that everyone knows yeah i go everywhere literally everywhere i had a one i've got so many good stories as well i had one kid i went to watch my son play and one kid sat in front of me and he after a half time he turned around said thank you for that game blah I'm looking at him thinking, howdy. It's a memory from when he was with his granddad.
Yeah.
Another one, him and his dad were watching the game. Went 1-0 down. His dad was out fuming. He didn't watch the game. He just stormed out and left. Didn't watch the game. Another one where a guy had a ticket and on the same day, he's supposed to be a groom at his brother's wedding.
Yeah.
He's like, what do I do? All these things. People have some wonderful stories, but it's a game that everyone remembers.
Yeah. And I'm just curious to your answer to this question. Obviously, you played with some amazing players. Who was your favourite England player to play with?
Michael.
Michael,
yeah, yeah, Michael. Favourite player, player?
Yeah.
Probably Stevie. Favourite forward, Michael.
Yeah.
But Wazza was close. Wazza was brilliant because... I know what he wants to do. He loves getting on the ball, Wayne Rooney.
Yeah.
Loves getting on the ball. So what my job is, create space for him to get on the ball.
Yeah.
So I make him runs to deter defenders from going into the number 10 spot.
Yeah.
To create space for him to go and get on it, turn and start dribbling and doing what he's doing.
Yeah.
And then I'm there to hold the ball up, knock it back to him and then let him play. He was, yeah, he was phenomenal as well.
He's one of my favourites. Michael won the Ballon d'Or.
Yeah. Oh, I was at Liverpool. Yeah.
You know why you want the Ballon d'Or also? Because of Emil Wark.
Yeah.
I'm pretty sure. Yeah, because he scored beautiful goals, but the movement you made for him.
Yeah, I think creating space. You understand? Yeah. That goes both ways as well. So I think for Michael, as long as you're working with him, he's going to be, if you're doing. You've got too many forwards, they work in separate, they don't work together.
Yeah.
I was all about working and I grew up in an environment where you've got to work together.
Yeah.
So my thing was, how do I gel with this player?
Yeah.
And that's how, and he was, again, he was a phenomenal player.
This year he was on fire.
Yeah, he was phenomenal.
Yeah. But would you say a lot of other guys now are just in it for themselves? Like, want to score more goals?
It's not just now. Or always? Yeah, it's been like that for, for, Forever, really. You've got some players who will lose a game. See, I've done my job, I've scored two.
Yeah.
You've lost a game.
Yeah.
That doesn't make sense in my head.
Yeah.
But it might be because I'm from an environment that is winning and losing is key. We could get relegated. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. It's all about fighting at Leicester. As you see what's happening there now. You need players who are ready to put it down and fight.
Yeah. No, I mean, we were talking about that result on the way down as well. They're getting beat 4-0 off Oxford. And you've still got a good squad there.
At home.
Yeah. That was a proper shocker.
You said they've got a good squad. They've got a lot of young players, which is needed.
Yeah.
But you need some... We're talking about Gary Mack.
Yeah.
You need senior players that can help them.
Yeah.
They're going to give you all, these kids. They're going to give you all. But at some stage, they might come up against it where they need someone else to... to help galvanise them and help them get through this game yeah
I haven't seen that yet when you're young you've got the legs yeah when you get older you think you know you think about the game yeah when you're young you don't think too much about this just want to play and show to the manager you can prove you're good enough to stay in the team yeah so I'm just curious see Leicester is the Thai guy still involved yes he's still there still the owners yeah I didn't know
there's a hell of a drop in it the thing is you overspend it comes back to haunt you yeah they should never have been relegated with the squad that they had they should never have been relegated yeah but then you are relegated and then then you've got to figure out how are we going to consolidate we cannot afford to keep paying these wages we can't afford to have these players just sitting around yeah so then you just you start slowly tearing the squad apart yeah bring young lads in which they have we've got some fantastic young lads to be fair we've sold some Trey Nyhoney's gone to Liverpool yeah Munger's gone to Man City he's now he's in Swansea Motsey just left he's gone to Man City as well you so they sold they actually are producing but none of them actually get to the first yeah but going back to the England thing yep you obviously played with some phenomenal players but if you had to pick because it's a question that comes up in every podcast
Stevie G Frank Lampard or Paul Scholes if you could only pick one Stevie
Stevie yeah yeah yeah Stevie but Scholes was brilliant Lamp as well Lamps as well they were all phenomenal players you can't take away from what they've all done yeah Scholes was brilliant Stevie because I played longer with him and at the end of the day he can take a game by the scruff of the neck on his own and change it I don't know if the others can do that on their own just take the ball and go and do something yeah they'll obviously need others to be contributing in that
Stevie just give him the ball let him do his thing manager wise you obviously work with various different managers who was you the best one that understood you the best
Martin O'Neill and Gerald Holier I can't I can't take away one if I'm honest with them two Martin gave me the the freedom to do what I was good at and what I wanted which was get the ball turn run with the ball I remember I remember I can't remember who he played but I remember getting the ball controlling it laying it back to Robbie Savage he took a touch and then gave it away managed to go to me i'm like what's that what's he having to go to me for and then come yeah what are you doing that for i'm like i just gave him the balls he says what is he gonna do that you can't i looked at him and just get the ball turn and run i went yeah you're right so and then the funny thing with with martin he didn't coach didn't do any of the coaching but man management had a group of lads that would run for a bit orphan yeah And that's what he's getting at Celtic now. He's given up the job, then he has to come back and galvanise him again, then give it up again, then come back and do it again. It's down to, there's a place for management, there's a place to get the players on your side. Then there's a place for coaches. Yeah. Coaching. Yeah. And understanding the tactics and all that. That's not him.
Yeah.
He's the other part of it.
Did O'Neill ever give the kind of fear factor? I don't know, Martin O'Neill, did he ever give people the fear factor?
He was horrible. He wasn't nice.
because he worked with Cluffy and stuff I would always imagine guys like Cluffy you would shit yourself you'd be like fuck no one wanted to ask him any questions no one wanted to go into his office all they wanted to do was keep him happy and once you kept him happy he'd keep you happy and
a lot of the time when you keep players happy what is it days off and stuff like that he was brilliant at that giving lads days off understanding what they needed for their families and stuff like that staff at the training ground Not one of them has a bad word to say about Martin.
Jeez.
No, understands when their birthday is, when their kid's birthday is. I'm talking about cleaners. I'm talking about chefs. I'm talking about all them people.
Yeah.
They all love him. But he was brilliant. And Gerald was similar. Gerald understood the one-on-one with the players.
Yeah.
Understood that. And then obviously tactically, he was a different level.
Did you ever have a bust up with any of those managers?
Martin.
Martin.
Yeah. But that was later on. Yeah. Aston Villa.
Yeah.
Yeah, it was later on. But yeah, when you get older, you've got your own way of saying stuff and portraying it. So yeah, it just wasn't, we didn't click. But he still picked me.
Yeah.
Yeah, he still picked me. I still wanted to run for a bit more for him. I have nothing bad to say about him.
I think if you are clearer as a manager, you're understanding. From the age to 20 to 24, you do what you want with the player.
Yeah.
From 24 to 28, the player show you, boss, you need me. Yeah. And after 29, 30 years old, this is where the player come back toward the manager, you know? Yeah. You know, it's nearly the end. Yeah. So it's, that's why, you know, if you're a good manager, if you understand this.
Martin was brilliant. Martin, we had a good, especially at Villa, we had a really, really good group. We just didn't have... It was that little bit that we just lacked. We were trying to break into the top four. We finished top six every year.
Yeah.
We're just slowly trying to break in.
After Liverpool, you went on to Birmingham. and obviously Wigan, Villa, Newcastle, Jets and Bolton I want to touch on onwards after Liverpool what made you decide to move on?
I'd been told by the then CEO that Cissé was coming in and I had to leave I said no, no, I'll fight for my place because the reality is I knew that I would have played the way that I play, you need a player like that because you would have been that old 26 yeah 26 but I was told no I won't play and then there becomes that point where you're like if I'm being told I'm not going to play what am I going to do just sit there and collect money yeah I said no no let me just go and play some football somewhere no disrespect to Birmingham but they came in Steve Bruce sat down with Steve Bruce in my house and he talked me through everything and I went there started well In the sense of, it was tough. Because I've gone from being with Stevie, being with these guys, who, football is football, but when you're in it, you realise who's top and who's level and who's just a footballer. I would think at Liverpool, you've got to play forward. You've got to wrap balls in, everything's got to be done quick and crisp. I'm making runs and no one's even looked up.
Yeah.
So, yeah. I'd gone from that where I'm getting Stevie G just wrapping balls into me. I've got to be alert and control it on the chest, on whatever, however I've got to control it. I've got to control it. To now, everyone's going side to side and I'm just stood there thinking, I'm making runs but no one's even looked up. So I had to adjust there. And then we'd gone from being, I think Birmingham's been up there now three, four seasons now. And I think they were trying to transition into something different.
Yeah.
Better. But it wasn't, we got a load of players in and it just didn't fit who we were. The best player was Damian Johnson who worked. And when you know, when your best player is like that, then you know all these other players that you're buying, they're not going to, they're not going to fit.
Yeah.
It just didn't fit. And then went on to Wigan, which was good actually. Wigan is a strange one because there's zero pressure. We had an amazing team. Valencia, Palacios, Mario Melchior, myself, Titus Bramble, Chris Kirkland. We had some good players. Mano Figueroa, we had some good, really, really good players and we did okay. But then it becomes a point where a bid will be put on the table and you're at a club that will just go. put another 50 grand on that put another 100 grand on that do you know what I mean so Valencia left Palacios left I left yeah it just started slowly started to take away the essence of what you got there nah I reckon they went through a period where I thought they wouldn't we wouldn't FA Cup at all yeah back to Villa would you always say was Roy Keane there as well no
I didn't know if Roy Keane was following him around at that point or not. No, I think that was a bit later.
But that was national team.
Yeah, that's right. I think
Paul Lambert brought in Roy Keane, I believe.
Yeah, that was it. But Villa going from Birmingham, Wigan, then you're going back to a big, big club like that. A big club again. Was that, again, a different expectation? Oh yeah,
100%. But I was ready for it again. Yeah. By the way, I forced my way back into the national team at Wigan. I think I was the first Wigan player to play for England.
Yep.
I know Kirky did it, but he was on loan from Liverpool at the time. So yeah, made my way back into the national team. So I played and then moved to Villa. Huge club. I'm from Leicester, so I know what the size of the club means and everything. But it was nice to go back into that environment where you're playing European football. Your expectation is super high.
Yeah.
The pressures of that. You live for that, to be honest. I know people say no, but you actually do live for that.
Yeah. And obviously, after that, you went to Bolton. What was that like as a club? Because they weren't... You're struggling. Yeah,
they were struggling at that point. So I was actually training at Blackburn. Paul Robinson got me in to help me get just training, training with the 21s. And, um, I think, so there's a guy that does a lot of media, used to do a lot of media stuff at Leicester. And, uh, he's friends with Lenny, friends with Gary Parker and all them. And he's gone, Parks wants you to come up, um, come and train with Bolton, blah, And I went, yeah, no problem. So I went to go and train with Bolton and then. One minute I go from Blackburn to go and train with Bolton, and he goes, oh, do you fancy playing in a game with 21's game on tomorrow? Yeah, no problem. Went and played on that. Played 45 minutes. Hadn't played for a while. Played 45 minutes. Okay, do you fancy signing? Yeah, no problem. Signed, first game, Blackburn, at home, scored. But I'd been training with Blackburn for three weeks, four weeks? Yeah. nothing came of it I was just training with him and then obviously went to Bolton and then played but it was because of Lenny that got me in there to be fair which was good it was just tough because there was no money promised this promised that I think Lenny was looking at all these players and agreeing like they can have this and they can have that and they were saying no you can't have that but you can have this free player yeah Yeah. that's football though sometimes but the reality is if you're being honest with the manager he'll be able to figure that out he'll be able to figure out but the fact that you keep telling him yes you can have that you can have that and then pulling the rug from under his feet not good but obviously
you had a phenomenal playing career I want to know who was the toughest guy you came up against defender wise who you hated playing against I didn't hate playing against anyone to be honest with you I just loved the challenge
I loved Bye. Challengers Sol Campbell was tough Yeah Sol was very tough Big boy Yeah And then Walter Samuel Was one of the toughest God He was at Roma When we played Roma Yes
Oh my goodness Was he not a dirty
Bandit as well I think so Yeah Well it came out later Yeah It came out later That yeah
He was a dirty guy Yeah But yeah Let's not talk about that
Yeah Yeah so them two They were just Tough tough tough defenders strong powerful everything so yeah they would be my toughest toughest and out of your playing career who was your funniest teammate I think Cara Cara yeah Cara Jamie Cara funny yeah he was funny Peggy was Peggy was Peggy off exit I had him at Leicester as well and he was good he was funny but yeah there was
Mike Pollitt yeah when I was up wigging with him he's from Bolton just nuts was Bullard at wigging at that time just left just left because he comes across quite a funny guy as well yeah him and apparently him and
Mike Pollitt together yeah
Jesus yeah talking about stuff like that what was the best dressing room prank that you've ever seen And from who? There must have been some...
No, no, no, loads of... No, I didn't... I had one at youth team, which was probably a bad one. And we did it to one lad who got arachnophobia. And we took his sock off and we turned it inside out and put a spider in and then tied it. You know, you mess about with people's shoes and tying knots and all that. So he thought the actual joke was the tying of the knot in his sock. yeah so he's untied and then he's put his hand in and his kid you know he's like this oh man and he locked himself in the boot room never came out he didn't come out for the rest of the day or something like that he was just in there and when you look back you're like that's quite bad isn't it because that is serious oh yeah yeah serious stuff isn't it so yeah that's proper trauma yeah
that's not good I would be the same with a rat or anything I've got like a phobia do you understand and imagine you put your hand in a grub yeah that would give me the cold fear in fact I remember there was a guy on I'm a Celeb a guy called Dean Gaffney who used to be in and see the fear in his face when he was touching like rats or whatever in there you just seen
the fucking fear see this is the thing with that I'm a celebrity don't go in I can't do all that I just couldn't do it no you
You'd never ever, not even for a couple of million?
No. No. You guys got to swear. And the funny thing, my dad could do anything. He'd put his hand in anything.
Yeah.
Yeah, a snake. We went to Florida Disney World. Yeah. We had a house and we had all the family there and all that. This was going back probably about 20 years.
Yeah.
And he's seen a snake and he just went after the snake. I'm like, what are you going after the snake for? You don't even know what snake that is.
Yeah.
He just dived in there to try and pull this snake out. Like, Jesus.
Ah, it's fucking dangerous stuff. Nah, I'm a bit of a pussy when it comes to stuff like that. But... So you would never do it, but what does Emil Heskey do nowadays? Because I know you were involved in the women's team at Leicester. Yeah,
I was involved in the women's team at Leicester for a little bit and the boys on the 18s. So I was coaching there a bit. Boys were getting serious, so you want to watch them more. So I'm watching them, media work, keeping myself busy in that sense.
And we need to talk about, you're still playing football at this age as well. We were speaking about it before the podcast, but um How's the body holding up playing in these games?
Joining the game, not too bad. The week after, not so great. But no, it's just great to be out there at times. I've joined up with Insure again, signed up, so, but I can choose when I want to.
Yeah.
When I play. But yeah, it's just great. Sometimes, you know, it's great to be out there and just enjoy playing. When you see the injury to Steve and then you're like, oh, is that football?
Is he still out?
He's still out, yeah. Yeah.
So I've seen that Stephen Ireland broke his leg or whatever it was, a right bad one.
Tip and fib, I think.
Jesus.
So, yeah, it was not great. But yeah, when you see that, you're like second guessing it. But when you get out there, you just love playing that, going out there and playing. But you want a bit of fun.
Yeah.
I've done all the serious side of it. I just want to enjoy myself.
Do you find playing at that level People are still going, I'm going to get him, I'm going to give him one.
But that's part and parcel of it at times, you know what I mean? You've got to be sensible with it. I'm not going in flying into tackles and saying I'm not 20 anymore. So I've got to look after myself as well.
Yeah. And see that team, is it just full of ex-professionals now? No, no, no. At the start, the starting line-up from the weekend's game, I was telling you Bartley was at the back. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm looking through that team going... Man, that's a bit much George Boyd in the left wing and all that. This is ridiculous. But I'm like, is there any random guys that are just off the street playing there?
Yeah, yeah, we've got some local lads. Yeah. You get some local lads but then you obviously get the lads who want to just come and enjoy a game of football. Mine, I figure, I was injured at the minute so it would be him and Barkley at the back.
Yeah. Is Valencia still playing?
He comes every now and again. He lives in Ecuador or wherever. Oh,
does he just come over for the odd game when he's over? Yeah,
when he comes over,
yeah. But yeah, who put that team together? Was it Stephen Island?
It was Stephen. So on, I think, Tuesdays, we were playing seven-a-side anyway.
Yeah.
So we'd just get together, play seven-a-side, mess about, blah, give a bit of fitness. And then it just, I don't know, excelled into that. I don't know how. You must know the owner of the club. And they said, oh yeah, come and play. Bring so-and-so. Bring this player, bring that player. Yeah. And then you just end up, yeah. Everyone just loves playing football, so you end up with a full team of ex-players. Drinkwater, he can still play.
Yeah, he can't be that old, eh?
He's like, he'll be 37, 38. But he's like this. Honestly, he can get around the pitch and everything. Brilliant.
Yeah. Who's the top guy there just now in that team?
Probably him or Papacito. Pap scores goals. Scores goals there.
scoring goals every week I just see it all all the time on TikTok another one for him you're like jeez he could still probably play just looking at his building stuff but anyway we have had probably enough of your time so I don't want to hold you up for much longer but it has been an absolute pleasure to hear some of your stuff and yeah hopefully you keep scoring goals maybe need to try and catch a game one day rather than watching it on TikTok
but I appreciate it thank you thank you thank you thank you always thank you
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