Transcription

• #Claire Chinellato

  Welcome to Design, Material and Meaning, the podcast that explores the unique aura of design, fascinating materials and the senses that elevate them. My name is Claire Chinellato, Industrial and Luxury Product Designer and Creative Director based in Corsica. Through this podcast, I invite businesses, entrepreneurs, creative souls and designers to awaken your curiosity and discover exciting creations and topics. Together, let's look at the world through a new lens, the lens of global design. Let's get started. Have you ever visited the French Talk website? I certainly have. And even though they I've changed a few details. Let's be honest, it still feels like a survival challenge trying to figure out where to click and whether you forgot something before logging out. Complementing online administrative procedures has become a real headache for millions of people in France every year. Another concrete example, one certain motorway section in France, physical toll booths have been removed. in favor of fully digital systems. Wonderful, right? Drivers now have to remember exactly when and where they entered and exited the motorway in order to declare it online within 72 hours. And unsurprisingly, if you forget, you receive a fine. Now, imagine for a moment that you're an elderly person or simply someone who did not notice this change. And on top of that, technology is clearly not your strong suit. Suddenly, the situation becomes far less amusing. Today, we are going to explore a topic that has become truly unavoidable. It may sometimes appear optional or even superficial, but in reality, it plays a crucial and decisive role in our everyday lives. Digital inclusion. We hear a great deal about digital transformation, innovation, artificial intelligence, speed, and user experience. But behind all of these concepts lies one essential question. Who are we truly designing digital experiences for? And perhaps, even more importantly, who are we unintentionally leaving behind? In this episode, we will therefore explore together what digital inclusion really means, why it does not only concern designers our developers. how it can be integrated into the design of websites and services, why it has become a territorial, economic, and collective challenge, and finally, how businesses, public organizations, and project leaders can concretely integrate these issues into their daily practices. To enrich this episode, I will have the pleasure of speaking with two complementary perspectives. First, that of... a webmaster with whom I regularly collaborate to better understand how digital inclusivity is integrated into websites today, how to design fairer tools from the outset, what standards exist, which reflects should be adopted, and what limitations still remain. Then, you will discover the perspective of a public institution working at the scale of the territory around responsible digital practices alongside deeply engaged stakeholders. Together, we will discuss support for businesses, initiatives aimed at the general public, territorial strategies, and the role design can play within these broader dynamics. Digital inclusivity is not simply about making a website more readable or enlarging a button on an interface. In reality, it touches on something far broader. The way we design tools, services users' journeys, digital objects, and even territories themselves. This can concern a web interface poorly designed for a visually impaired person, an overly complex administrative process for individuals and familiars with digital tools, a lack of audio or tactile guidance, poorly structured information, or a digital service that simply fails. to take into account the diversity of uses, rhythm, abilities, and life contexts. In other words, speaking about digital inclusion means speaking about access, balance, fairness, real usage, and responsibility in the design process. And as you will discover throughout this episode, design is not simply affected by these issues. It is, in many ways, at the very heart of the solution. Stay with me and let's begin by setting these foundations. What exactly is digital inclusivity? In a few words, digital inclusivity consists of designing digital tools, services, interfaces, and environments that can be understood, used, and truly appropriated by as many people as possible, regardless of their abilities, vulnerabilities, age, social context, level of digital literacy, or everyday constraints. So this is not solely about disability, even though disability is not really an important part of the discussion. Digital inclusivity also concerns older adults, people with limited familiarity with digital environments, individuals experiencing digital exclusion or precarity, people with cognitive disorders, visual impaired, blind or hearing impaired individuals, people with dyslexia, but also, quite simply, anyone who needs a service that is clear, fluid, unstable, and non-exclusionary. And this is precisely where the topic becomes particularly interesting from a design perspective. Because inclusive design is not simply about making things look nice or meeting standards. It is about thinking carefully about information hierarchy, readability, user comfort, visual, audio, or tactile cues, mental loads, the simplicity of user journeys and above all the genuine diversity of user experiences. When an interface is too small, too complex, too fast, too overloaded, too abstract, or too standardized, it can become exclusionary. When a digital device provides no tactile feedbacks, no voice guidance, or no intuitive logic, it can also exclude users. In other words, inclusivity is not an additional layer added afterwards. It is a true design philosophy. And this philosophy can apply to a website, an application, a digital kiosk, a connected object, a public digital service, an administrative journey, a booking platform, or even a more hybrid system combining objects, interfaces, and human support. To make sure all of this is more tangible, I wanted to begin at the scale of the project itself. On the ground, within the reality of a website being designed alongside someone who works every day with businesses and entrepreneurs. Today, I have the pleasure of speaking with Maxime Roudier, a webmaster with whom I have been collaborating on various projects for several years now. What I particularly appreciate about working with Maxime is his constant attention to including all the users concerned by the project we design together. Maxime regularly continues his training in order to help organizations optimize and improve their digital interfaces. The goal of this conversation is to better understand how digital inclusivity concretely takes shape in website development today. Hello, Maxime.

• #Maxime Roudier

  Hi, Claire. And hello, everyone.

• #Claire Chinellato

  I'm delighted to welcome you in this episode to discuss such an important topic. Thank you for being here. I've prepared a few. questions so that our listeners can explore these issues in a very practical and tangible way in their everyday work. Let's begin. What differences do you notice between a standard website and a website that has generally been designed with inclusivity in mind?

• #Maxime Roudier

  Yes, in my opinion, a website where inclusivity has been properly considered is very easy to use. In fact, we've noticed that by striving to make navigation smooth and accessible for as many people as possible. We improve the overall experience for users, even for able-bodied people.

• #Claire Chinellato

  I'm really glad to hear that. Thank you. And that naturally leads me to another question. What are the most common mistakes or oversights that you still frequently observe on websites today?

• #Maxime Roudier

  Well, there are sometimes so many, but I'd say the most common mistake is probably color contrast. So to clarify the terminology, contrast is simply the difference in brightness between two colors. A contrast ratio can range from 1 to 21. 1 represents white text on a white background, which is not visible, as you can think, and 21 corresponds to black text on a white background. Keep in mind that the minimum threshold recommended by accessibility standards is 4.0. And we realize that the issue of insufficient contrast is quite common on websites. And strangely enough, this problem is understandable. Because for someone with good vision, the contrast may sometimes seem perfectly fine. So we completely miss the issue. So to address this, we can use a specialized free tool that allows us to check the contrast ratio of each text relative to its background color.

• #Claire Chinellato

  Yes, absolutely. These are indeed patterns we encounter very often and they are definitely worth paying attention to. Which brings us to another point. Are there any standards, guidelines or regulations that companies should be aware of?

• #Maxime Roudier

  Yes, absolutely. First, it's important to know that there is the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines, WCAG, which is a set of rules that establish the global standard for web accessibility. Then, in France, this led to the creation of a general framework for improving accessibility called RGAA, which the version 5 is scheduled for early 2027. Interestingly, in Luxembourg, they choose to create several documents, the RAAM, which regulates mobile apps, the RAWeb for websites, and the RAPDF for PDF documents. And the advantage of all these documents is that they are a list of criteria, but also they are made up of fairly simple tests that you can carry out on your own site to identify accessibility problems. Finally, from you a legal standpoint, in France, the RGAA is mandatory for public service websites, organizations with a public interest mission, as well as websites of large private companies exceeding a certain revenue threshold or depending on their industry. That said, to find out if you are subject to these regulations, I invite you to check out Obligally, a website that uses a questionnaire to help you verify your accessibility obligations. This requirement is also part of a European framework, the European Accessibility Act, EAA, a directive that imposes accessibility requirements on a large range of digital products and services across all member states, which is provisions set to take full effect in June 2025. And in the United States, digital accessibility is governed by the ADA. Americans with... Disabilities Act.

• #Claire Chinellato

  Your insights are truly valuable. Thank you. We often hear concerns about costs. So let me ask you this. Does buildings and inclusive design website create additional constraints?

• #Maxime Roudier

  Yes, this can indeed lead to additional constraints and costs. But that's especially true when accessibility wasn't considered from the start. I've noticed in various projects that sometimes retrofitting an existing site. to make it accessible can cost more than building it entirely from scratch. So to help visualize this, I often use an image that might seem a bit silly but which I think illustrates this principle quite well. It's the 1.4 meter high door. Imagine a store built with a 1.4 meter entrance door. Technically this door serves its purpose. Everyone can enter the store. But it... excludes many people. People taller than 1.4m will at best have trouble getting in and at worst will simply give up on coming into the store. To solve this problem, you'd have to replace the door with a larger one. But modifying it after the fact will require not only replacing the door but also rebuilding the wall around it which is much more expensive than if sufficient height at being planned from the start. Accessibility is exactly the same. When planned in advance, it costs almost nothing extra. When added after the fact, it can be costly.

• #Claire Chinellato

  Thank you very much, Maxime. I have one final question for you. If you had to give five concrete recommendations to a company wanting to create or improve its website, what would they be?

• #Maxime Roudier

  I think I'll start with text contrast. I've mentioned this before, but it's a recurring topic that is often underestimated, in my opinion. Unsufficient contrast can make text invisible to some of your users. And to give you an idea of the scale of the impact, we can start with a statistic. Studies estimate that 8% of men are colorblind. And this is the case for 0.5% of women. In France alone, it represents 3 million people. And worldwide, it represents 340 million people. That's why I recommend you to check this, especially since they are simple tools to do so and it's also fairly easy to darken and or lighten a color if it's incorrect. As for the second point, I'm thinking about image alt text. On a website, we distinguish between decorative images and images that convey information. Decorative images should be ignored by screen readers. After all, an image that doesn't provide information. to a sighted person shouldn't provide any to a blind person either. As for images that convey information, they are just as important as the main content text. And since screen readers cannot read them, a textual description must be provided as a supplement. This is what is known as alternative text. In practical terms, imagine an image of a show poster. Without alternative text, a blind person simply won't know what it is. The alternative text must therefore include the essential information from the image. For example, poster for the dance and singing show on Tuesday, June 4 at 9pm. This ensures that all users have access to the same amount of information. Another useful feature, most like a floor plan or a table of contents for a book, it is the sitemap. This is a dedicated page that list all the page and posts on your website in an organized manner. It is primarily intended for people with cognition or orientation difficulties, but this page can be very useful for everyone to quickly find their way around and get an overview of your platform. Next, I find that one element is often overlooked, its form labels. A typical form contains several fields. For example, a common contact form. have fields like name, email address, perhaps phone number, subject and message. However, it's common to see fields with a label placed not above the field but within it, what's known as a placeholder. The problem with this element is that it disappears once the user begins typing text. This poses a challenge for people with ADD or ADHD or other cognitive impairment. since they no longer see the field label and may consequently become disoriented among the various form fields. This problem can also be a major obstacle for a blind person using a screen reader. The absence of a label means this field will be announced only as text field and with no other indication of what to enter, this field is very likely to remain empty. Finally, I'd like to talk to you about... Keyboard navigation. This is a very important point because many users navigate with a mouse or a trackpad, relying solely on the keyboard. Particularly people who are blind or have physical disabilities. As a result, a menu, pop-up or button that cannot be interacted with using only the keyboard can become a major obstacle. Also, when navigating with the keyboard, you'll notice what's called the focus. This is the visual indicator of an... blue outline that shows where the cursor is located during keyboard navigation. Be careful, if it's invisible, you're navigating blindly and that will cause serious problems. Imagine navigating with an invisible mouse. Yeah, that doesn't sound easy. I therefore encourage you to check whether your navigation is consistent and functional by using the tab key on your keyboard to move and the enter or space bar to activate elements.

• #Claire Chinellato

  Thank you very much, Maxime, for sharing your insights. It was a truly pleasure to have you.

• #Maxime Roudier

  Thank you for the invitation and thanks everyone for listening.

• #Claire Chinellato

  Through your perspective, we clearly understand that digital inclusivity is not simply an intention or a statement of principle. It's reflected in highly specific decisions. The structure of a page, the readability of a text, The logic behind a user journey are even the presence or absence of user feedback mechanisms. Most importantly, we can see that these questions should not appear on the very end of a project as a simple boxed click. They need to be integrated from the very beginning within the design process itself. To help you do so, we prepared a small surprise for this episode. You will find in the description a link to a practical guide featuring useful references and recommendations to help you improve your own practices. I truly hope you will enjoy it. Of course, Discussing digital inclusivity goes far beyond the business's world because it concerns everyone. It also involves collective dynamics, territorial approaches, support systems, culture, mediation, and the development of digital skills. And that is precisely what I wanted to explore next, this time at the scale of a territory. For this second part, I wanted to shift the perspective. to move from the scale of a single project to a community, from a website to an ecosystem, from a tool to a shared and collective approach. I therefore have the pleasure of speaking with Alexandre Vican and Piera Maria Luciani, both actively involved in the development of Responsible Digital Initiative in Corsica, notably through the Smart Isola project. Together, we will explore how these topics are currently being addressed with the general public, businesses, and local stakeholders. Alexandre, Pierre, Maria, hello.

• #Alexandre Vican

  Hello,

• #Claire Chinellato

  Claire. Thank you for taking part of this episode. I'm truly delighted to have you here today. It was important for me to discuss digital inclusion with both of you because during my last collaboration and intervention alongside your teams, I could... clearly see how concretely digital inclusivity is being implemented across the territory, and I would love to share this experience with us today. Let's get straight to the point. Alexandre, you are head of digital uses and services within the Collectivité de Corse. When we speak about digital inclusivity at the scale of the territory, what exactly are we talking about and what observation does this approach rely on?

• #Alexandre Vican

  Hello.

• #Claire Chinellato

  When we speak about digital inclusivity at the scale of a territory, we are first and foremost speaking about equality. This idea is not simply to provide access to networks or equipment, but rather to ensure that everyone can understand and truly master the digital tools available to them and use them in a conscious and informed way. Technology. in itself is neither good nor bad. What truly matters is how it is used. But for that, people must first be aware of both the opportunities it creates and the risks it may carry. Digital technology is now everywhere and increasingly shapes the way we live. Yet, part of the population remains distanced from it, sometimes because of a lack sure. of equipment, sometimes because of insufficient digital skills, and sometimes due to operation or social isolation. In Corsica, this issue takes on a particularly important dimension because of our geography and the diversity of our territories. The reality of urban areas, rural villages, and mountainous regions are profoundly different. This is precisely Thank you. why the Collectivité de Corse has developed a broader strategic vision through small Isola.

• #Alexandre Vican

  Yes, to develop infrastructure, but also to support digital users, provide training, raise awareness, and make digital technologies more human, more accessible, more responsible, more ethical, and more sovereign. Ultimately, digital inclusion means ensuring that digital technology remains a lever for empowerment. rather than becoming yet another source of social or territorial inequality.

• #Claire Chinellato

  Thank you so much, Alexandre. I've got a second question for you. Why have these issues become so important today for a public institution or for a territory such as Corsica? Well, digital technology is no longer simply a technical matter. It has become what anthropologist Pascal... Planktar described as a total social fact. In other words, it now permits every aspect of our lives. Access to rights, education, healthcare, employment, social relationships, growth of the economy, and even citizenship itself. For public institutions such as ours, the challenge is ultimately to successfully support this social transformation by ensuring that technology saves people. and never the other way around. Thank you so much, Alexandre, for those feedbacks. Piera-Marie, as the territorial coordinator for digital inclusion projects within the Collectivité de Corse, could you share with us in concrete terms the main actions and initiatives currently being implemented to support businesses and the general public?

• Piera Maria Luciani

  Indeed, to ensure that digital inclusion does not remain an abstract concept, the Collectivité of course. takes concrete action on the ground through three major levers. First, we support and deploy what we could call operational field networks. We work alongside digital inclusion stakeholders, public digital spaces, and digital advisors. Their mission is to answer that last mile of support by engaging directly with users through practical workshops. for Citizen. The objective is to help them acquire essential digital skills and best practices, such as managing emails or securing personal data. And for businesses, this involves raising awareness around key challenges, such as online visibility or cybersecurity. Secondly, the Collectivité de Corse truly acts as an orchestrator. Our role is to break down silos and create genuine synergy. across the territory. We connect all local driving forces, French service centres, associations, third places, EPNs, digital advisors and consular chambers. The goal of this coordination is simple. Whenever a citizen or a business expresses a specific need, we must be able to immediately direct them towards the local actor best equipped to respond. Finally, our absolute priority is to ensure that every citizen benefits from the same level of service, whether they live in a urine center or rural area. To guarantee this equity, we work daily on the development of an inclusion mapping strategy. This strategy tool allows us to precisely identify underserved areas where support services are lacking so that resources can be directed there as a priority.

• #Alexandre Vican

  to inject resources in priority.

• #Claire Chinellato

  Thank you so much, Piera. I've got another question for you. How do you approach, especially inclusivity, when the realities of the ground vary so greatly from one territory to another?

• Piera Maria Luciani

  Well, this is where the challenge becomes truly engaging. Corsica has a highly diverse demographic landscape. We do not work in the same way within a priority urban district as we do in a remote mountain village. The key lies in agility. We do not impose a single model. We adapt each response to local needs. Territorial diagnosis. Before taking actions, we listen. The challenges faced by a craftsman in a rural area for connectivity, travel constraints, are not the same as those faced by a senior living in a city center. It's social isolation, fear of digital tools. Then we have the proximity and mobility. To address isolation, we prioritize initiatives that reach people where they are. Inclusivity means reducing both the physical and psychological distance between people and technology. Third, co-construction. We rely on local stakeholders and community networks. Mayors, social organizations, local actors. They are the ones who truly understand the realities of daily life. My role as a coordinator is to provide them with the financial and methodological tools needed to ensure that their digital inclusion projects can emerge and thrive sustainably. First, territorial diagnosis. Ultimately, the objective is to create connection and cohesion. Digital technology is used as a tool, but the final ambition remains deeply human and social. Turning technology into a driver. of empowerment rather than an additional barrier.

• #Claire Chinellato

  During the Responsible Digital Day, I had the pleasure of taking part in this meaningful event alongside you, highlighting the experiences and ideas shared by stakeholders from Corsica and Occitanie. For those interested, I have shared the support project from this day in this episode description. Piera Maria, you brilliantly organized this inspiring... event, could you share with us three key topics or needs that emerge around inclusivity?

• Piera Maria Luciani

  Yes, for sure. We had integrating design practices from the very beginning and user experiences. Then we had raising awareness among citizens and businesses about digital challenges and responsible digital usage and making refurbished digital. equipment more accessible to a wider audience through donations and community organizations.

• #Claire Chinellato

  Thank you so much, Piera Maria. Alexandre, how can a territory support and encourage digital inclusivity for both the public and private sectors? First of all, it is essential to define a clear trajectory for the territory. The key question is what kind of digital future do we want? A digital ecosystem is more citizen-focused, more human, more responsible, more sovereign, and more ethical. This is precisely the vision behind the Smart Isola initiative. Next, our role is to foster collective engagement around this trajectory and the shared values it embodies. Finally, our role is above all of a facilitator. and catalyst. We must encourage the emergence of the digital transformations that Corsica and its people truly need. This means supporting local dynamics, encouraging cooperation, building bridges between stakeholders, sharing resources and methodologies, and providing common frameworks and tools. Ultimately, the core issue remains deeply human. The fact that we are speaking about digital technologies. should never mean that people disappear from the equation. Human beings must remain at the very heart of every action undertaken. A huge thank you for your thoughtful insight and valuable contributions.

• #Alexandre Vican

  Merci à toi, Claire.

• Piera Maria Luciani

  Merci beaucoup à toi, Claire, pour cette invitation.

• #Claire Chinellato

  What seems particularly interesting to me here is that digital inclusivity is no longer simply as a question of tools, but a broader societal issue. It's a retreat. cannot merely provide digital services. It must also ask itself who could genuinely access them, who understands them, who uses them, and who remains excluded or left at a distance. And this is precisely where global design has a meaningful role to play. Innovation labs, for example, often adopt key methodologies that integrate design in order to help elected representatives, public agents, associations, and local stakeholders develop more inclusive and responsible solutions. In Corsica, we can notably mention Corsica Lab. As you may have understood, design helps create dialogue. between users, constraints, different audience, systems, and on-the-ground realities. A designer never works alone. They act as a mediator of knowledge, technical, strategic, and experiential, collaborating with many different professionals and stakeholders, public institutions, web developers, innovation labs, local agents, citizens, and many others. Let's close this episode with four simple, practical, and easily applicable recommendations for anyone wishing to develop a more thoughtful and inclusive approach to digital experiences. First, integrate inclusivity from the very beginning of the brief. Do not wait until the end of a project to ask yourself whether your website, service, or digital tools is truly accessible. Raise the question from the start. Persona can be a valuable support for this process and you will find an entire episode dedicated to this topic on my podcast channel. Second, test with real users. Do not rely solely on your own intuition or perspective. Have your tools reviewed, tested and experienced by different types of users, seniors, visual in parrots, individuals. people who are less comfortable with digital technologies are individuals with specific cognitive needs. A small tip for you, you can also collaborate with associations and local organizations. And if, while listening to this episode, you would like to become a tester yourself, I will be delighted to welcome you into my community within the agency. I encourage people from all... backgrounds and profiles to join us in testing concepts, interfaces, and products in previous stages, helping us to develop solutions that are more sustainable, more inclusive, and more meaningful for the world around us. If you would like to participate, simply send me an email. My contact information is available in the episode description. Third, think about the experience as a wall. Inclusivity is not limited to what happens. appears on the screen. It also concerns the object itself, the physical support, the service journey, human assistance, audio or tactile feedback, and the overall understanding of a system or experiences. A clear user journey, readable hierarchy, adapted vocabulary, a 3D navigation will make your project significantly more accessible and impactful. And finally, accept support and collaboration. Because we all know that you are already managing many responsibilities all the time. Auditing a website, consulting experts, involving test audience, or collaborating with complementary profiles is often a game in time, quality, consistency, and long-term coherence. And of course, I would be delighted to support you in this process if you once. This episode is already coming to an end. Thank you for listening to this episode of Design Material and Meaning. I hope this conversation has encouraged you to look at digital technologies through a more sensitive, human, and transversal lens. Behind every interface, website, digital object, or service, there are always people, lifestyle, vulnerabilities, habits, obstacles, expectations, and uses that are often very different from what we initially imagine. Taking these realities into account does not unnecessarily complicate a project. Quite the opposite. It gives its more meaning, more strategic value, greater impact and stronger coherence. A sincere thank you. as well to our guests for their shared experiences and valuable expertise throughout this episode. If you enjoyed it, feel free to share it with a company, a public institution, an entrepreneur, a friend, a designer, or anyone working closely or indirectly with digital tools, services, or user experiences. See you very soon for a new episode of Design, material and meaning where we will continue exploring new and inspiring topics. Until then, take care and stay curious.