Transcription

• Speaker #0

  well adam thanks for coming on happy to be here um shout out to who's a john orlando yes john orlando right shout to john orlando that said you need to meet this guy i'm like okay okay and i mean your story is wild and it's the thing i love about it is it's like rocky everyone loves a comeback story. Right? And you really have a comeback story. And so if it's okay to go through like what happened, what led up to it happening, what happened. And then after that, like, okay, this is now like set the mantra of my life. Basically, I'm going to move forward and I'm going to touch people and help them who were walking in my shoes.

• Speaker #1

  Right. That's pretty much it. It's a pretty amazing story. And I wake up every morning. like in awe that I get to live this life the way that I'm, that I'm leading it now. It's pretty amazing. Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  Is it something that you still like every morning, it's still like, you have that level of gratitude?

• Speaker #1

  I live, I say this all the time. I live with a different sense of gratitude than most people will ever understand because of where I've been and what I've been through. So yeah, that is always first and foremost, I'd lead with that. And my family and I end every single day with it as well. It's great. It's great. Okay, so Pennsylvania is where you were? Pennsylvania is where this started, yeah.

• Speaker #0

  Okay, so what year, what happened, bad choices got made. But take me back to that, if you don't mind.

• Speaker #1

  Sure. Really what started this, the impetus behind it was I was on state parole for some mistakes that I made in my youth, 18 to 21, paid for those in the state. get out 21 years old, thinking that I'm going to restart my life, hit every imaginable wall. I'm 21 years old with a violent felony, no real education, no prospects for the future, obviously no employment history, and nobody wanted to give me a chance. So I ended up right back in the same circles, doing the same things that got me in trouble in the first place. Only this time I end up in federal court because I committed a string of robberies in downtown Philadelphia. And I end up, SWAT catches up with me one night in the middle of a robbery, just like what you would see in the movies and not to glamorize it or any of those things. It was crazy. Like, I look back, I think back to those times and it's like watching a movie. I'm like, what the hell was I thinking? But, you know, I was a young man and caught up in drugs and alcohol and just. running wild and feeling such a sense of hopelessness and despair. I really had nothing to live for. I'd lost my house. My car had been impounded. My phone turned off. I was really just trying to get by. I'm with this crew of guys who somehow we rationalized that it's a good idea to start knocking over these brothels. that are, you know, illegal houses of prostitution and gambling and drugs.

• Speaker #0

  Adam, hold on. We're in Las Vegas. Every fucking person here knows what a brothel is. You're okay. Yeah, yeah.

• Speaker #1

  There's a very safe space for you in terms of brothels.

• Speaker #0

  You're okay. You can go about two hours that way to Pahrump. Oh, no, 45 minutes to Pahrump. But they're legit here. Yeah, true. Very true. So you were knocking, you were basically robbing brothels in Pennsylvania. Where in Pennsylvania?

• Speaker #1

  Downtown. Philadelphia, literally center city.

• Speaker #0

  I don't mean to laugh, but Jesus Christ, the worst place ever.

• Speaker #1

  It's in the shadow of city hall and the place where I was arrested. That street has about three of them. City officials are known. We're back then, allegedly, we're known to frequent this area. So again, in my young, immature thinking, I'm like, who's going to respond to this, right? Nobody wants any of this to come to light. Um, but suddenly here's SWAT laser lights, you know, coming in through the windows, come out with your hands up, all of that. And I'm like, wow, I literally weighed out my chances right then and there. Did I have enough bullets to try and get out the front door? This is how warped my thinking is at this time. And it's like, do I want to go back to prison? And I said, you know what? I'm, I'm going to give myself one more chance. I didn't think. things would end up the way that they did. But I wasn't ready to give up my life at that point. And that was a split second decision in that moment where I considered that briefly. And I'm like, that's crazy, right? It's crazy what I'm doing. And that would be an even crazier outcome. I'm not going to do that. And So I tried to play the Kaiser Soce thing and slip out with everybody else. But I had a co-defendant who was in the back and he pointed myself and others out. So we end up in federal court where that same co-defendant was quick to tell the FBI, ATF, anybody else who would listen, that there were some links between our group and organized crime. which at the time there was a whole task force committed to taking down this one particular group. And they wanted us to say that we were involved with them moving large quantities of drugs, which for the record is not true, never was true. But that's what they wanted us to say. And they said, you either cooperate or we're going to give you a life sentence. And I said, yeah, I've been through this before. I know this game. You can't possibly do that. Well, they did it. And I went to trial and I was sentenced to 213 years, no chance of parole, no hope of ever being released. In the federal system, you do 85%. So I end up with this ridiculous sentence, 24 years old, life sentence, and I'm sent to a level six maximum security penitentiary in Allynwood in White Deer, Pennsylvania, a place called USP Allynwood. And, you know, that's where... I hit that proverbial fork in the road. I walked out of the yard and I had to make some split decisions on what I was going to do, how I was going to define those pivotal years early on, on who I was and ultimately who I'd become in that environment.

• Speaker #0

  Okay. I'm going to pause you for a second. That was a lot. That was a lot. As they say now, that was a lot to unpack,

• Speaker #1

  as the kids say. What year is this? This would be 2000.

• Speaker #0

  Okay. So it's 2000. I recently movie of the 25th hour. It's a, it's a Spike Lee movie and it's with Edward Norton and Philip Seymour Hoffman. And Oh, the guy that played the sniper in a saving private Ryan, I forget his name, but he goes to, he goes to prison for, I think it's for, they found drugs in his, in his, in his apartment and it's Spike Lee. So it's gritty and he's a good looking guy. And he makes his one buddy beat the shit out of him the day before he goes away because of what could happen. He was going to sing, sing. So it was like to make him that way. You're a good looking guy. Like before you go in, what are you thinking? Like in terms of just being tactical, because you have to be, I would assume.

• Speaker #1

  Sure.

• Speaker #0

  Right. So what are you thinking before you even. are going into like the admitting area in terms of how you need to portray yourself, your body language, any tells you could be giving, like, cause you're getting sized up by everyone there. I would think.

• Speaker #1

  Absolutely. Absolutely. So, um, part of, to my advantage, and this is unfortunate, it's not something I'm proud of, but you know, the reputation that I had in the street somewhat preceded me and ultimately ending up with a 213 year sentence has a message. in itself. Wow, this is serious guy. What did he do? And there's people, even before I walked onto the yard, they had my file. They knew who I was. They knew I had gone to trial. They knew the people that I was associated with. So I walked in with that behind me, not to say that you still don't get tested, right? You have to respond to that. But I'm a guy who's already been in the system. Unfortunately, I got caught up in the criminal justice system at a young age. So I knew how to handle myself and I knew how to handle those situations. And I just, you know, address them head on. I've never been one to kind of, you know, skirt around issues. Just believe that, you know, when you meet things head on, it kind of helps to resolve it more quickly. One of the things is in prison, and especially in that environment, a level six maximum security penitentiary, like there's extreme violence. There's really no middle ground. There's not like, you know, one-on-one fistfights. It's just not how it works, right? If someone's going to come for you, it's going to be at least three people. It's going to be a group and they're going to come with knives and it's like your life is on the line. So if it gets to that point, you got problems. But generally, if you can establish yourself before that by other means and it doesn't get to the extreme violence point, you're going to be okay. So I was able to carve out some space and I had some good people that looked out for me when I got there. You know, other lifers who knew who I was, who literally made space for me and allowed me. I like my experience was different than a lot of people who end up in those situations because of my background, because of the reputation that I had. And because of the people who then made a path for me. Right. Things could have gone very differently. And I think back about that now. I say, I'm here by divine design, right? Like I had to do my part, but I look back in the like catastrophes that I somehow managed to avoid, like large scale riots where I was like, I was right there. I was on the front line, you know, knives in both hands, like going, what am I doing here? I don't want to be here, but those are like the situations that you find yourself in prison. And you're going, dear God, man, I hope we can talk this thing out because people are going to die. And I had watched those situations explode and been so fortunate over the years. That first 10 years that I spent there in that environment, somehow it became normalized. Like you just learn to, you're tuned in at a different frequency, right? It's like, I like to use the analogy. It's like when you live by the... high power lines, right? And you hear that buzz, you pull up and you're like, you're like, man, how do you live here? Like, you don't, that doesn't drive you crazy. And you're like, the person that lives there goes, I don't even hear it anymore. Like, it's just, it's white noise, it's background. That's what it becomes in prison. Things vibrate at a different level. And there's always this level of tension that's just like, you just have to be conscious of it and you learn how to operate within it. But you don't realize when you're living it, what it does to you because you become desensitized. And then you move to a different environment. People are like, what the heck? Like you're buzzing and everybody else is like, whoa, man, what's wrong with you? So I had to experience that part as well. When I finally did leave that environment, I didn't want to leave. That's how crazy that sounds. Because here I am in a level six maximum security penitentiary, the most... peaceful I have been in my entire life. I learned how to live within that frequency. I am literally doing my meditation. I'm out in the yard doing morning sunrise yoga with who's who of American gangsters are out there. You know what I mean? Everybody's got their own space carved out and things were flowing pretty smooth. And I'm like, I can breathe. I've finally figured out who I am. I find my passion for all things health and wellness related. I'm sharing this passion with others, developing a sense of purpose. I'm like, I'm good. And then with all great comeback stories, there's a woman, right? I meet a woman and that changes everything. It always does.

• Speaker #0

  And usually for the better. We share that, that we both have amazing women in our lives. We'll get to that one. When you were inside, Was it something that when you said like you reached kind of like this flow state, I guess, not your words, I'm paraphrasing, but kind of like a flow state where you're, you know, doing down dog with, you know, John Gotti or whoever, right? Whoever's there and probably not because he was in a different facility and he was probably dead. But it's like you have this heightened sense, this, you know, vibration, this vibratory thing going on, but also just like, okay, here's my day. And this is how I'm going to live my life right now, right? Is that kind of how it was and for 20 years?

• Speaker #1

  Well, this is the first 10 years that I'm in that environment. And I remember, this is telling, right? So I worked up in recreation. And there were times when everyone else is inside like for count, but working in rec, those of us who are up there in the gym, we're up there putting up weights, cleaning up, doing that stuff. It was a great job to have. And I taught all these fitness classes, right? Literally taught thousands of men. And like, where else would I get to do this? And when we were done, I'd get to come out on the yard and there's nobody else out on the yard at this time. So we have like 10 minutes before they call the move and everybody else comes out. Me and another guy that I work with, we're just out strolling, shirts off, like not a care in the world, right? We're like, how great is this? It's summertime. And I remember this, a unit manager, position of authority, guy's walking through and he stops and And he goes, look at you guys, man. He's like, Klaus, man. You belong in a beach somewhere, like, you know, down south in the Caribbean, someplace, any place but here, man. And that was like, there was something that he saw. And I heard what he said very clearly, like, this is not for you, man. Like I picture you someplace else. And I always held onto that. I was very conscious about like, you see, I'm not all tatted up, which is an anomaly as well. And I knew that if I was ever going to earn a second chance, I'd have to do all of these things. that would allow someone to get behind me, to put a signature on a piece of paper, because ultimately that's what it comes down to, right? But I also, I had to be perceived as someone worthy of that second chance. You look at me, I know that I'm a decent looking guy, that in this environment, people look at me and they just go, you don't fit here. And I had to use that as a strength, right? As much as it could have very easily become a point of weakness where people would want to try and take advantage of me. I had to do other things to counter that. So it's this fine line. I know how I look, but when needed, I played a lot of sports in prison. People joke around about prison rules, basketball. It's real. It's real, right? There's guys standing on the sidelines with their knives ready to go and hyper-aggressive. I've got a great stiff arm. That's not usually... you know, employed in basketball, but that's what you got to do. You're going to the, going to the rim. You know, we're playing full contact basketball. Um, and there were things that I did basketball, believe it or not, we played hockey in prison.

• Speaker #0

  Really?

• Speaker #1

  Yeah. Yep. Played some hockey in prison, floor hockey, which you can imagine pretty aggressive as well. Split my head from here to here.

• Speaker #0

  Jesus Christ. Wide open. Adam. Okay. Wow.

• Speaker #1

  Wow. But it was, By displaying that aggression openly, often, people knew to give me space. And I cultivated that physical strength along with a mental confidence to back it up. And it served me well. And those are things that I developed in there that have served me well on the outside as well.

• Speaker #0

  So let's talk about that.

• Speaker #1

  to bring closure a little bit to... you know, to your past past, tell me about the day that you got out, what that was like. Oh, the day that I got out. So fast forward that the first 10 years was in that maximum security. I spent the next 10 years in a medium security.

• Speaker #0

  Really?

• Speaker #1

  Which was like night and day difference. Yeah. And it was to kind of put this in perspective. I told you I was vibrating at a different frequency. I get there and I'm, I'm in this new facility for like, well, the first day that I'm there, I hear chairs like moving on the floor and I'm in a cell with this guy and I jump up and I go to the door and I look out and he's like, well, like what's going on, man? I'm like, did you hear that? The chairs? Like what's, what's going on out there? Like to me, when chairs are moving, something's happening. Like there's a situation. Um, so I'm, and people are like, Whoa, this guy's a little, he's a little high strung. I don't see it. But I'm like, this is what I'm conditioned to. I go out on a visit. My mom brings my aunt and my uncle up. They left and they said, we are never coming back. He's not all right. He's not all right. He's not well. He's not ready to come home. And what they sensed was that energy where I'm now in a room where there's a lot of movement, a lot of people. I'm hyper alert, hypersensitive to all these things. And they're sensing that energy and they're like, whoa, what is wrong with him? And to me, that was an important message. I needed to hear that. When my mom told me, you know, they were kind of freaked out by you. And I'm like, what? I got defensive, naturally. But then I'm like, hold on, let me really assess this. And I started talking to some of the men around me. Guys that I had known who had been in higher security had come down and they're like, it's an adjustment phase. Like, yeah, we see it. You got to kind of dial it down and it'll take a little bit of time. And I'm like, whoa. It was that realization. I knew that in order for me, again, looking forward, if someone's going to get behind me, these are things that I need to address. Some men never do. Some men never fully recover from that. And there's a number of years that I saw when people got 20 years in, they tend to kind of... There's things that happen to you from living that long in those environments. For most people, I was consciously aware of that. And I said, listen, these are things that I need to counter. I want to go home. I have this vision for the future, for this family that I want, for this woman that I want to be with. And for myself, for her, for that future and that family, I need to start taking action, being proactive and really focusing on myself and what do I need to do to get to that place. That got me into life coaching, working with a guy named Dr. Patrick Williams at the forefront of the positive psychology movement, therapist to coach, became a certified coach, changes my life, changes the way that I communicate, not only with my wife, but everybody else. And I started training other men in there to become coaches. And I built the support that I needed to become that person. People that I could trust. to give me the feedback, to tell me, like, listen, these are things you need to address.

• Speaker #0

  Right.

• Speaker #1

  Honest feedback. And we did that for one another. And it was that community that was built around it that became instrumental in me really starting to live into my full potential. And then, as all of us are developing, like, this gains national attention. We start getting people to come in. And it's really through that work that people start to take notice. And they're finally starting to get behind me in a meaningful way and say, you know what? We normally don't do this as a warden or associate warden. I'm going to give you a letter of recommendation, like acknowledging the incredible work that you're doing in here. That's great.

• Speaker #0

  I'm going to push on something. Walk me through your first day when you walked out of the medium security. facility when it was like your first day of freedom in 20 years. That's something I've been thinking about with you because you've been in there for so long and you've gone from, you know, extremely high energy, you know, where you've got to be, you know, ultra sensory going and then a little, you dial it down, but it's still there a little bit. It has to be. It's still a controlled environment for you to,

• Speaker #1

  you're basically free. Walk me through what you were feeling and what happened that day. So the day I get the news that I'm granted immediate release, should be like, I dreamed of this, right? Was a little bit anticlimactic because it's like immediate release, but we need to get this thing signed. So it got dragged out a little bit, but eventually I get the phone call. The call comes, Clausen. I'm like, oh my God, that's it. That's it. I grabbed my, so I walk out of there with a cart filled with my books. notebooks. There were things that I was taking home with me. I got a vision board, the whole works. Things that should have never survived in prison, I'm taking them home with me. So I get my little cart and I'm going across the compound. And it's COVID, so everybody's locked down. But there's men yelling out the windows, banging. They all see me with my cart. I'm not a low profile guy. I love it. I'm a very high profile guy, right? and everyone. And that's something that should be noted, right? There were no haters. People were so happy for me. Even the other guys who still had life sentences, they're like, man, go do it. I know if you're out there, I got a shot. So I get to the front door. They bring me down very unceremoniously. They're just open the door, leave me and close it. And I'm like, okay, now what? It's not like you can walk anywhere. I'm not... on the street in the middle of a city. There's no like exit interview. Well, how do we do? Zero to 10. You'll be getting something from us in an email. Please give us a 10 out of 10 on everything. That's a good recommendation. Right? We should do that.

• Speaker #0

  Right?

• Speaker #1

  I mean, it's not like that. It's like, fuck you. We're done here. Yeah.

• Speaker #0

  You know, good luck to you. I don't want to see you again.

• Speaker #1

  Get out. Get out. Right? Get out. And I'm like, what? I've got a cart. Like what? I'm waiting. I'm waiting. I think that they've called my. then fiance. I think that they've called her. She's been holed up at a hotel in town, the same place for the last 10 years where she has gone and spent the weekends, six and a half hour drive each way just to come spend a few hours with me. Amazing. So I'm waiting for this car to come around the bend where I can see her. And I'm just sitting inside. I'm like, I'm where the visitors wait to go in. So I'm in this room. that has windows looking out, but I'm told that I can't go out. I got to wait for her to come get me because we're still on the property and there's acres around us. So it's a ways out to the road. So I'm waiting for her and I'm just looking and I'm kind of like trying to take it all in. And then I see the car coming and I'm like, okay, here she comes. And I'm like a little kid. I'm just giddy. And I'm like, oh. I got to get out the door. Little background. Couple weeks prior to this, another guy, same situation, similar case, had multiple 924Cs, was granted relief, just like mine, gets to the door. His family's on the other side. They can see him and they come out and go, whoa, Sorry. They just filed an appeal. They got an injunction. You're going to have to stay. Wow. My wife knows this. My fiance at the time knows this. And so she's like, we just need to get out the door. We need to get out the door. So she pulls up and I come like jogging over with this cart. Right. And I push it off to the side and she comes and I just wrap my arms around her. Now you got to remember, like we've been together for 11 years at this point. She's seen me in a, in a maximum security where This is about how we were across the table. But there's noise. There's all sorts of other things going on. There's no contact. She was willing to put up with this, right? Hugging a kiss at the beginning, like brief. And at the end, that's it. Now we've been in a medium for a decade. And I'm able to hold her hand for a period. Policies change. She was able to sit next to me. I could hold her hand here, have my arm around her. I needed that physical contact to like, that was... a big part of my transition of like getting back to normalcy. So this is the first time where I get to put my arms around her and nobody can say, okay, break it up, break it up. Cause they do that all the time. That's enough Clawson. That's enough. And we're afraid that we're going to lose our visits that, you know, so they've been holding this over us. No more, no more. So I got my arms around her. Clawson, they need you back inside. She gripped me so hard. And then he starts laughing.

• Speaker #0

  Asshole.

• Speaker #1

  Asshole. Asshole. Asshole. And we look at him and I'm like, I realize I'm gripping onto her as well. I'm like, let's get the hell out of here. Let's just get in the car and go. And the story is amazing,

• Speaker #0

  by the way.

• Speaker #1

  The thing that shouldn't be overlooked for everyone that's going to be watching this, anybody who says... Having a vision board is for women only.

• Speaker #0

  You can go fuck yourselves. Because you did 20 years and walked out with your vision board. Good for you.

• Speaker #1

  I did.

• Speaker #0

  Like, that's just, holy shit. When you said that, I'm like, I know, girls have fucking parties for a vision board. She's like, I had a vision board. Fuck yeah, you did.

• Speaker #1

  Absolutely, man.

• Speaker #0

  Mad respect for you having a vision board. Because it's also, it's like, it gives you that glimmer of hope. That this is. this is what I want my life to be if and when I get out of here,

• Speaker #1

  right? A hundred percent. And the worse circumstance you are in, the more you need that. You need to be able to see something and believe that it's possible. So one of the other things that I had under my bunk, I was in the same cell for better part of a decade. And I'm on the bottom bunk, looking up at the top bunk above me. I had taken a black. indelible marker and wrote the word believe. So I had some photos and some other stuff up there and that vision board was always nearby. And it was a reminder. First thing, when I woke up, I saw it. And the last thing before I went to bed, always had to live in that faith that the opportunity was going to come. I had to keep doing my part. And every day I asked myself, have I done enough to earn that second chance? Everything that I possibly could. and that was a constant reminder. Vision boards are important, especially when you're in prison where everything is dull and gray and just bland. You have nothing to inspire you.

• Speaker #0

  Is there any, and not, I mean, I don't know if you've watched that, but any TV show or movie even comes close to capturing like what prison is like or are they all bullshit?

• Speaker #1

  So here's, it's hard to really answer that because. There's so many different versions of prison. Like some of the worst of what you've seen on TV, what's dramatized, is actually pretty close to the truth in some places. But for the most part, it's usually somewhere in between. And it's not all the time that...

• Speaker #0

  frenetic energy, that drama, high drama, it's usually spurts of that. It's peaceful, it's calm, it's just the average routine day to day. And that's what people want. People want their routine and then things get disrupted and it goes from zero to 100 very quick and then back down. Lockdown, get everything back in order. And it's hard. That makes it very hard to tell time except by those Peak instances, right? So yeah, I would say TV sometimes gets it right.

• Speaker #1

  I was like Oz. Oz was good, man. Oz was just gritty. And that's bad. You couldn't film. You can do Oz now the way the culture is now. But like Oz was just, again, I've never done time. But I'm like, okay, that watching that show alone was like, I never want it. I'll never commit a fucking felony or crime. Like I'm good. I like out of BC. Like I don't want to get raped by out of BC. in the shower. Like, no, I'm not that attractive, but he probably wouldn't throw me away. So it's like, okay. But it's just, there's so many, I think, misconceptions, right? And you touched on a lot of them. I love when you said, you know, when on your release day that there were lifers that were, you know, cheering you on as you're pushing your cart, you know, out of the prison. I love that because I think even for that brief moment. It was like you were part of their vision board.

• Speaker #0

  Without a doubt. And I'm going to jump ahead. Please. Because the greatest thing that I get to do now, wow, I feel emotional just talking about it, is I get to advocate for those people. The guy who initially carved out space for me, a guy named Kevin McTaggart, has been in 43 years. I recently got to hand part of his petition. to the U.S. pardon attorney and say, listen, this is someone, if you're going to really look at one, you need to look at this guy. He saved a woman's life. She probably would have died. He's done all these amazing things, helped me transform my life, kept me on track, and has done that for so many others. I get to advocate for him and countless others now. And back in January, I got the phone call. And I'm looking at my phone, right? It comes up. It says government something. And I'm like, do I really want to answer this? Because it's like, I don't know, seven o'clock at night. And I'm still at the computer. I'm working on something. And I've got calls in, emails out to all these case managers because I'm collecting information. We're putting together files for people that my partner and I are advocating for, trying to get them clemency, commutations, early release, right? And a lot of them, like... They're lifers. This is their only option. And so I see it and it says government. I'm like, I really don't want to talk to anybody. Let me just answer it. I pick it up and I hear, yo. I'm like, yo, what? Who is this, man? He says, it's Benjamin. I said, Benjamin? I said, oh, he's on a cell phone. He's got it spoofed, right? Like it's got a... He's just got it saying something government to hide the number. That's what I'm thinking. I'm like, but this guy has never called me from a cell phone. You know, listen, I get a lot of calls from, you know, people through the prison phones. Like they come in all the time, but I also occasionally get them from prison and I don't even know who's calling. And it's just all of a sudden, you know, they're on somebody else's phone. So I'm like, oh, he's got this thing spoofed. I'm like, it's the first thought. And then he goes, Man, I just got off the phone with Josh Smith, who's the deputy director of the Federal Bureau of Prisons, and Ms. Alice Marie Johnson, who is our pardon czar that President Trump appointed for pardons and commutations. He said, they just granted me immediate release. And I lost it, man. I just started yelling like I got the news. The way that I always imagined I would celebrate for myself. I celebrated for him. I'm yelling. I'm screaming. I don't know what the neighbors think. My wife, my son come running in. They're like, oh my God, are you okay? What's going on here? And I'm like, he got it. He got it. And I just can't even contain myself. And I start crying, man. And I'm like, I'm just overwhelmed with emotion. This is a guy who was serving a life sentence, had 18 years in, old crack law. It should have been out. Should have been out years ago. But they did. The president granted him an immediate release, got rid of his supervision, nothing. He's walking out the door free. And I'm like, wow.

• Speaker #1

  So it's cool to me to sit and listen to you tell these stories. And we're like a half an hour in. But you started this whole thing in chasing a negative thing in knocking off brothels to either get money or for drugs or for alcohol or just making bad choices. You were the bad group of people. But there was a high that you were chasing in doing that. You've not had a complete 180 that now the high you get is not. Yes, you getting out is huge, but I guarantee you the high you feel now is even greater than when you got out by stories like this. When you get calls like that and working so hard to get people who from antiquated laws are still imprisoned and should be released. immediately. Am I right?

• Speaker #0

  100%.

• Speaker #1

  Right? Yep. That's like the coolest part of your story. And that's why it took us 40 minutes plus to get there, but we had to. Yeah. I wanted you to walk me through, you know, it was literally like the first 10 minutes of Saving Private Ryan, you know, and it was over on and off spiking, you know, for the first 10 years. A little bit better for the second 10 years, but then it's like you're out. What was it after you got out that you thought, I want to help people that were like me and help those that are incarcerated wrongfully, either for the duration that they're in for or whatever, to help them get out? Believe it or not, that was always the plan. So what planted the seed was back in.

• Speaker #0

  In 2001, 9-11, I end up in the hole. I'm in the hole on 9-11. And there was a number of things that happened that were like instrumental in me really starting to look at myself and going, man, like, come on, you got to wake up. You got to start making better decisions. And it's not something that happens immediately. But I read Viktor Frankl's Man's Search for Meaning. And in there, Frankl, who was a doctor, psychiatrist, Nazi Germany, finds himself in a concentration camp watching everybody around him die, like literally give up the will to live. And he said, you know what? That's not going to be me. And he envisioned in his mind's eye himself years into the future, standing in front of his students, teaching them about letting them know what he was seeing, what he was witnessing, so that it would never be repeated. That's how he found a sense of purpose. For me... I took part of that and I was like, listen, I'm someone who's been in here before, ended up back in here again, like didn't get what I needed. I'm going to make sure that others don't go through everything that I had to go through to learn these lessons. Let me simplify this and help them get to that conclusion more quickly. So that was always my plan. And my plan was when I get out to be able to go back into prison, to be able to help others. go through the transition successfully back into their communities, into their families. And part of what I did on the inside was develop a curriculum. And ultimately, that's what I did. I spent five years working with Pepperdine, Grazia Dio, School of Business to get this curriculum validated as having a less than 3% rate of recidivism, which is extraordinary. So that was all part of the plan. And you Getting together with other amazing people in this space, like my partner, Charles Duke Tanner, former pro boxer, lifer, who got out during similar means. He was granted a commutation by the president and has since been granted a full unconditional pardon for the amazing work that he's been doing since he got out about the same time I did. We knew of each other and the work that we were doing inside. Now we get to work together on the outside. And we recently went back in. to Coleman, to the USPs down there in Florida with the deputy director, Josh Smith, and a group of other men who have done time and all did it as volunteers, went back in there to be able to speak to the men, to share our stories. And there's something about being able to see, like you could read about it in a book and we can send in newsletters and do all of those things. But to see someone right there. there in the room who says, man, I was sitting there. I was in that chair, seemingly hopeless. Both of us, my partner and I, both lifers, never supposed to get out, but we did the work. We continued to invest. And when that opportunity arose... we were able to walk out the door because we were ready. So that was our message. Like, listen, you have to stay ready. You have to make these investments. You have to believe in yourself and you have to believe that, you know, whatever your higher power is, it's going to give you a little bit of help because it's not going to happen on your own.

• Speaker #1

  And being able to do that now is like just, wow,

• Speaker #0

  amazing.

• Speaker #1

  Is that the number one mission, mantra?

• Speaker #0

  thing also challenge you have is keeping people that are incarcerated that should be out motivated that there is hope so the culture covid covid had its had effects out here like everybody there are certain things that we don't even realize especially with with youth who you know school they miss school during covid there there's gaps that are still just now starting to come to light. The prison system universally across the country has not recovered because policies, procedures changed. Lockdowns became normal. There are officers who have been working in these facilities who have never known what it's like to have a open complex, meaning people can move around freely. It's only been locked down for the whole time, so they don't understand what that means. So there's A lot of changes, a lot of repercussions, yeah.

• Speaker #1

  It's something that also the culture in prison, different than the culture outside of prison, like the fucking assholes walking around having open conversations on their cell phones on speakerphone. Fuck you, by the way. If you do that, go fuck yourself. I don't care. I hate that. It drives me crazy. Yeah. That's my ADHD. But are there still things that go on? You're just kind of like. It just kind of gets you a little bit that you see in terms of the, let's say, the free culture versus the incarcerated culture. Oh, 100%.

• Speaker #0

  There are certain levels of respect that exist in those environments because the rules of those environments dictate that you have to follow certain understood procedures, right? Like you don't cut in line. And if you're waiting to, you know, if you're on the phone, you better respect the person next to you who's on the phone. Don't get loud. Don't interrupt their conversation. Like there's just levels of respect that take place inside that do not exist out here. And that can be very frustrating, whether it's like interpersonal, but there's also different, like my partner, Duke and I operate in business, very different. than most other people. We've had some bad business partners, but my wife says it all the time. She's like, the people you've done time with have a higher level of integrity as 99% of the other people that you have to deal with. I'm like, that's crazy, right? People would be shocked. When we give our word to each other or to anybody else in business and life, it means something And that's part of where we come from and part of the credibility that we established and that we continue to maintain. Like, that means everything. That means more to me than anything else. It's like, as a convicted felon who served 20 years in prison, how do you deal with Vegas fucking road rage? Oh, God. Vegas drivers are the worst, man. They are the worst. Yeah. Vegas is the worst. And I drive everywhere all across the country because I travel a lot. And believe it or not, I'm happy. People talk about East Coast drivers being kind of aggressive, especially up in the Northeast. I love it. I love it. I know you're going to go. There's not going to be any hesitation.

• Speaker #1

  And I respect that. Go. I was just my dad. I'm from Canada. I go to New York, Western Finger Lakes region. And I have clients in Rochester. So I was back there last weekend. It's just different. Yeah. It's just, and even their road rage is like nothing. Their road rage is like over here, you know, here it's like, I mean, I think it was on TikTok. I think yesterday people like on the strip, cars pulled over, women beating the fucking tar out of each other. Road rage. I'm like, really? Is it? I mean, I've had people like I've, yes, I'm not perfect, but like I've pulled in front of somebody out in Inspirata. And they've come around me and brake checked me. And I'm like, my 10-year-old son's in the car. Oh,

• Speaker #0

  man,

• Speaker #1

  yeah. And I'm like, at first I'm like, motherfucker. But then I'm like, nope, I'm setting an example as a dad to my son on how to handle something like this. And I'm like, what a jerk. And it happened a couple weeks ago. And my son Jack goes, it's okay, Dad. Sometimes people suck. I love that. And I was like, honey, God, from your lips to God's ears. Thank you. So let's talk about you as a dad. Yeah. All right. Which I think is probably like one of your favorite subjects.

• Speaker #0

  It is. Ever,

• Speaker #1

  right?

• Speaker #0

  Yeah.

• Speaker #1

  Talk to me about when you first became a dad. Talk to me about life lessons now about like, you're a very patient guy, but you're a guy I think also that back when you were younger would go at the drop of a hat. You'd go. I have friends like you. I went to college with guys like you that would just knock somebody out in a second. If you looked at him funny, I'm not, I'm not stereotyping. If I'm wrong, please tell me I respect to you. But if you know, if you, if the, if the, you know, 16 year old Adam looked at the 2026 Adam and went, Right.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah.

• Speaker #1

  So talk to me about fatherhood and when you first became a dad and all of that.

• Speaker #0

  Yeah, there's. There's like no recognition from that young me. But you're absolutely right. And there was just like a switch. Prison mellowed me. And it was forced. Like I had to learn discipline, all of those things. And to be perfectly honest, thank God I didn't have a child when I was younger. I wasn't equipped. I wasn't equipped mentally. I wasn't like just on every level. But my wife and I very much planned our family. And listen, didn't waste any time either. Like my son was born nine months after I was released, right? God bless you. So great. The crazy thing is, like the first week I'm out, there's people that we have, you know, who've been following us on YouTube were like, are you pregnant yet? And we're like, like no pressure here, right? But yeah, fortunately it happened quick. And, you know, we had waited a long time, but we're in our forties. at this time, which I thought was cool, except my wife, it's like a geriatric pregnancy. It's higher risk. Higher risk, but yeah, they need to name that something else because that's going to make women feel very insecure, right? So fortunately, we continue to work out every single day, continue to do the things like health and wellness is huge. And we're like, we're going to have a healthy family, set that standard. And when my son was born, From day one, at first I was like, oh my God, I don't know what to do. And my wife, although she's grown up in a family with siblings, she was like, I'm a little out of sorts here too. And we didn't have any family here. It's literally just the two of us. So we're kind of navigating this on our own, kind of figuring it out as we go. And fortunately it worked out. But it's... been like such a joy, although there was some concerns like early on. I'm like, man, I just don't know how to do this. But we've been very fortunate because of COVID, both of us working from home for the most part. Although I travel, I spend the majority of time like it's, you know, I make it a point to be at home, to be present. And I am so lucky to get to do that. I know a lot of Families Don't. They're not afforded that. And a lot of fathers specifically don't get to do that. So we get to really parent both of us. And it's interesting because it's like in real time, my wife wants to say yes. And then she'll look to me like she wants me to say, you'd be the one to say no. And it's cool that we get to have these roles and to be so active in his life. And I was just saying earlier, as we were leaving the gym, I was like, you know what I love? I love how our son checks us. You know, he's four. He's about to be five in July. And he'd be like, daddy, no texting on the road. Dad, eyes on the road. I mean, he's four. It's great. He's like, language, language. And I'm like, you're absolutely right.

• Speaker #1

  I was like, how did we get so lucky? He is so observant. And he is just a constant reminder of all that is good in our lives. It's something that I've said this often, that when you're a dad, when you're a parent, you have a front row seat to the greatest show in the world, and that is the maturation of a human being that you created. And it is your inalienable right to love, honor, and protect that child with everything that you have. And your son will benefit greatly from your past experiences. Because there's things that you can draw upon that nobody else can. And that is something that you need to give yourself, if you haven't, a tremendous amount of grace. for that, that you were put in that situation for that period of time for this reason. But now your job is to be the best husband and father that you can. And in that order, because it all begins with your wife and that because you're setting the tone for what your son is going to see is a normal, healthy, loving relationship. Whether you have a fight that you make up, like it happens, you have disagreements with stuff. And so I think that the only person and more blessed in you as your son. Um, it's, it's an incredible, incredible thing that you've come through something that most people would be like, go right back in again. Like what, what's the rate of people that, you know, that serve, you know, that federal time. What's the, do you know the data at all about like what, what's the, the odds on them going back in within like a year or two years after they get released? Has to be pretty high.

• Speaker #0

  It is. There's a very high number of people who get caught in that cycle of recidivism, cycle in and out, sometimes for a violation, sometimes it's new charges. Whatever it is, the biggest thing is really just being able, people don't understand the real challenges. Psychological, emotional, coming into a family where especially if it's a family who's been. you know, existing without you in the home. Now you're like, I'm home. Things are different. I can create some friction. And if you don't have great communication, you know, you're going to run into more and more challenges. I can say this, that, you know, with my wife and I, both being coaches, huge, huge impact that has had on our relationship to help us communicate, to have to do it while we were physically separate. I'm going to say for me, it's been a huge advantage. Because the physical part of that relationship didn't get in the way. And it didn't, I think a lot of people that clouds their judgment and just was very fortunate in that regard. And now having my son, we are always conscious of how we are modeling that. Just as you said, it's not the incentive, but it's a large part of it. We want him to see what that looks like. I know that the statistics. are that the majority of men who are in prison come from single parent households. And it's generally, those are households where the father is not present. I know that. I know how significant it is to have a father in the home. I know that for me, it was something that I've stated many times. I wish I would have had a strong male role model. There were times where I needed someone to be firm with me. And that was a role that my mother just couldn't play. Right. So I will always be there for my son. That is my priority to be a husband first, and then a father second to him. And, and so that he knows, you know, where the, where those boundaries are. And he knows that, listen, like you can still be firm and, and, you know, come from a loving home and, there is no doubt he knows that he is loved. And, yeah.

• Speaker #1

  So it's something that if you were to ask either of my kids to say, what's your dad's job? And they would both say, it's to love and protect me. They know that. They also know I'll never lie to them. And I've made some horrific mistakes in my life. And I said, when you're old enough, you want to ask me that question? Be prepared for the answer. We'll have a therapist on speed dial for you. But I would much rather I never want you to think I'm telling you something that is shady or in a gray area or an outright lie. Even a white lie. I just don't do it. I don't do it with my kids, with my wife. I just don't. It's just, it is a wonderful freeing thing. Talk about living in a flow state. To be in a relationship with someone that, you know, loves you, you know, unconditionally, obviously would go through a wall of fire for you and that you have this like ultra Jedi level, you know, of trust for each other. And nobody's perfect, but it's like, that's the thing. I always say I'm an imperfect. person but I love perfectly and I try to do better every single day that's all we can do you know that's all we can do is and I think also you get older I'm 56 I'm like I have nothing to prove anymore my ego's gone fuck that I love my wife I love my kids I love what I do for a living I love doing this and having people in like this has been fantastic by the way like it's just been this is probably episode 115 or 120 and it's just like there's something that always will stick with me. This will always stick. with me, this conversation. Let's talk a little bit in closing about, you know, the, company that you, that you're, that you're doing and how people can get ahold of you. but also the mission. I really want to let, so people know that, and this will, I'll clip up all this, you know, obviously as well, but what is it that you do? Who is the perfect person that should be reaching out to you? Like, is it like, say it's the spouse of somebody who's incarcerated or, you know, or something like that. Wow. So a couple of different things. So we have three companies right now. One is Legacy Impact Group,

• Speaker #0

  which is a consulting company where we do, We work with a lot of families. Our goal is to help get people relief, get them home either through clemency, which can be a commutation generally. We also focus on compassionate release, but early release through good time credits, through different things that can be earned. And we encourage people or guide them how to get down that path. Second thing that we have is a technology company. You know, AI is pretty much, you know, an integral part of everything. Right now, it's taking over all different industries, figuring out how to incorporate it. So that core curriculum that I told you about that was validated by Pepperdine, we have a technology company that has taken that core curriculum and added an AI coach to it to support individuals on a pathway towards economic empowerment. It's really about personal development, setting a solid foundation so that people become lifelong learners and they have the support and the accountability. that keeps them steadily making progress. So that's our technology company. We're really excited about that. And we're pursuing a number of different places where we'll be able to implement this and really reach people at scale because that's what doesn't exist right now. Another key part of what we're doing with the technology is when you collect data, this is the great thing about data. Now you can start seeing the value of certain interventions. It either works or it doesn't work, right? And we don't have enough of that. I mean, you see, that's why there's all this fraud, all this abuse. Like nobody's been watching. So through the technology, we're going to take a closer look at what's actually working and make sure that funding goes to those things that work and that people get the support that they really need that we know is going to help them. The last part that we have, which is tied into that, is a foundation. We have Legacy Impact Foundation. The foundation was formed. to make sure that those who can't afford the technology, that we're able to do it through philanthropic dollars, government grants, whatever that looks like, because we know how valuable it is to have that support. And the other part, like that friend of mine that I told you got the immediate release, he walked out the door greatest day of his life and then it's like, okay, now what, right? He was like, I have no way to get around. I have a great place to stay with family. My sister's working. Thank you. I don't have a vehicle. I don't have a license. I don't have my social security card. How am I going to do this? My partner and I helped him get an Uber, right? Get them all set up with his phone, with Uber. And there's a lot of, you know, there's supports out there, but there's gaps in our system. So we formed a foundation to help fill those gaps, to make sure that people had everything that they needed to get up and running because we want to see them succeed. So when these are all based on our experiences, the things that we know work. And also being very realistic about the challenges that everyone's going to face coming out of the system. Regardless of good intentions, you need to have a solid plan and specific supports in place. So that's what we get to do with the people, with the technology, and with the organizations in the community that are doing that. It's pretty cool. It's very cool.

• Speaker #1

  It's pretty cool. And it's something that, I mean, I hope you live another hundred years. but I think that I know that... And I'm going to get it wrong because I'm not a big God guy, but it's something like, you've done well, my good and faithful servant. And you're doing that now, my friend. You're doing it now. Thank you. Awesome. In a few months, if there's stuff that goes on and you want to come back and we could have an update on things, awesome. But the chair is always open for you. This has been great. Thank you. Well, thank you for having me. This has been a great conversation. Good stuff.