- Speaker #0
Welcome to It's Both, the podcast where we explore the messy, beautiful contradictions of being human. I'm your host, Nikki P, and each week I sit down with real people navigating life's complexities. Those moments when life isn't just one thing, it's so many. This week, I sat down with one of my friends, Thomas, for a conversation that is very close to my heart. One about growing up in church, questioning what we were taught, and figuring out what faith, community, and truth really mean to us as adults. We talk about our shared experiences in youth group, the connection, the comfort, but also the confusion that we experienced. We talk about the duality of those experiences, such as the joy and connection we found in youth group, but also the fear-based techniques that really did leave a lasting imprint. This conversation is about spiritual deconstruction, but it's also about reconstruction, about choosing what we want to carry forward and what we want to leave behind from our youth group days. It's about making peace with attention and finding freedom in the bothness. So let's jump in. Welcome, Thomas. It's so good to have you here.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, good to see you. It's been a minute since we've chatted.
- Speaker #0
I know. You left us here in Nashville and now you're living the life.
- Speaker #1
We're in the desert. Yeah, here in Phoenix. We like it out here, though.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, I'm glad you like it. The desert doesn't sound appealing to me.
- Speaker #1
The cold doesn't sound. I told it. I told my wife. Nashville is the farthest north I'm ever going to live because it got too cold for me. I didn't care for it.
- Speaker #0
That's fair. Well, we're talking about youth group today, which I'm so excited about because we were in youth group together. Before we jump into youth group, though, tell everybody a little bit about who Thomas is.
- Speaker #1
Thomas is, well, I grew up in Mississippi, which is where we met like 23 years ago, 25 years ago.
- Speaker #0
God, that's weird. Yeah.
- Speaker #1
When did you, you were like 10, 12?
- Speaker #0
I was 11. So it would have been, yeah, 2001.
- Speaker #1
Okay. So yeah. So then I guess we went to, I went to a Baptist school. We grew up Pentecostal. And then I moved to Florida for a little bit, Dallas for a little bit where we were roommates. And then.
- Speaker #0
For the first time.
- Speaker #1
We ended up roommates again. And then. And then my wife I met in Nashville through you. And then you met your husband through me, which is always fun. And then her family lives in Phoenix. So that's where we are now. And I work from home for Cigna doing mental health stuff, outpatient mental health stuff. I'm a big philosophy nerd. That's what I tend to read. And then the big movie nerd, I watch hundreds of movies a year. I keep up with the Oscars. I'm one of those dorks. I collect vinyl. I have like behind here, I have like 500 records. It's getting bad.
- Speaker #0
500?
- Speaker #1
It's getting bad. But I have gotten most of my white whales. So now it's just like new stuff that I'm buying, which I've slowed down significantly, which is nice. I mean,
- Speaker #0
you're going to need a whole room just for your vinyl. Yeah,
- Speaker #1
eventually. Yeah. Especially once we have kids. I'm going to have to lock them up. Oh, 100%. 101. It's too expensive. But yeah, movie nerd, music nerd, philosophy nerd, which we will probably get to more of all of that when we talk about youth group, because I have a feeling that my being so against everything that they pushed on me pushed me towards craving more art that they would disapprove of. I guess would be part of the. Part of that. We go, we see a lot of standup comedy. I go to a lot of concerts, no kids yet. We're working on that. But then I would say generally extroverted introvert. People think I'm extroverted because I'm a talker, but they don't know how many movies I watched this year, I guess. And then I guess.
- Speaker #0
You like to be alone. Like you are fine being alone, aren't you?
- Speaker #1
you've seen me you've lived with me i could not come out of my room for days yeah it's fine i'm happy in there but but that is why i mean i i know i need people for that reason and um i you know i think that um friends are super important for me so and that's another we're probably gonna touch on that a bit too um anything about found family always touches me i think for that for that reason just that i never felt uh never felt at home at home you know, but I found my little group of people who also didn't and none of us live in Mississippi.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. Yeah, well, I mean, let's jump in. So I think the first thing you said was, which I hadn't thought about till you said it, but talk to me a little bit about like how your experience in youth group has shaped the way you maybe look for art that would have often been, you know, quote secular.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, so this is something that I've realized kind of post hoc like the past few years that just Because somebody asked me just straight, I'm a big metal head. So one of the things someone asked me a while back was, are you guys just into this stuff just because you're not, you know, it's like so counterculture and like it's ugly and gross. And I was just like, you know, I think at the time, yeah. I think that I specifically searched out stuff that I knew would test the waters at first. Because, you know, we were buying all our metal CDs at the Christian bookstore, you know. And then I remember that. Yeah. And then even those, my mom wouldn't approve of some. She'd be like, I know they say they're Christian, but they don't really sing about Jesus too much. And I'm like, what do I? I don't know how to.
- Speaker #0
Yeah.
- Speaker #1
I'm trying here. All right. And then I realized that they, you know. And then same thing with movies. They'd be like, you know, you shouldn't watch this one. There's a nudity. You shouldn't watch this one because they cuss a lot. And I'm just like, and now it's, and then, so I specifically searched out those things. And then, and now, now it's, you know, I've integrated, I've integrated. So it's like, that is just what I like. And I don't think about it through that lens of like, I'm going to show them that I'm not actually bad and I could have this stuff. But now it's just like, no, I just really like, like, I don't even hear the cuss words. I don't, you know, I don't think. How much nudity was in that movie I watched last night? You know, it's just not how I like, you know, think about it.
- Speaker #0
But what's funny is I feel like for me is the opposite. I'm so attuned to noticing that stuff that I still get that like visceral reaction of like, oh, like something bad. You know what I mean? Not so much with like cursing, but more so with like nudity and other things that was like such a big deal, especially as a woman. Like I still get that initial or like I talk about this in one of my other episodes, but I'll be at the pool and I'm like, oh, am I wearing a two piece? Like, do I need to cover up? You know, like some of that stuff is so still ingrained in me from those youth group years. So it's interesting to hear that for you, like you're so integrated, you know, you don't even think about it anymore.
- Speaker #1
I don't anymore. No, but it was definitely it was definitely a thing back in the day. And now, I mean, a lot of like a lot of like the horror and metal stuff that I watch. The point of it is to be specifically. Yeah. over the top and insane someone said you can't sing about that and they went all right but i mean that's yeah which also like connects so much to how i know you because if anybody tells you like you can't do something i just feel like you're like all right well i'm gonna do it well let's see what that's about yeah well uh that's actually my parents just were visiting and just took them to the airport this morning and we so we talked a lot about that sort of stuff too um and i explained it as uh I even as a kid, I acted despite not in spite a whole lot. Oh,
- Speaker #0
that's a good distinction.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. And it made me think of this quote. Do you know who you know who Ram Dass is? Ram Dass. So he came out of the Harvard stuff with like Timothy Leary and Timothy. He told Timothy Leary was rambunctious, more rambunctious, I would say. And he said he said. Ram Dass said, I was a rascal. Timothy was a scoundrel. I never was a scoundrel. I don't know.
- Speaker #0
But I was quick. Yeah. I think. I think that's pretty accurate.
- Speaker #1
Yeah.
- Speaker #0
Well, and I even remember, I guess, something back to what you said earlier. Do you remember that thing? And specifically at your parents' house? Because for those listening, like, I was at y'all's house all the time. Best friends with your younger sister, Lacey. And so I was there all the time. And there was this box, which, like, most people here aren't going to know what I'm talking about. There was this box. that you would, I guess, watch TV through. I don't even know how it worked. And it would cut out curse words. And was that all it did? I can't remember if that was all it did.
- Speaker #1
So it's called TV Guardian. So it had different settings on it. So there was one where it would just mute. It would just mute the curse word. What it would do is it'd read the caption. And when there was a curse word coming up, it would block out that whole phrase that would come up on the screen, right? It would mute that part. But it would also, they had another setting where you could change it to replace the word in the bad word in the caption. So it would still mute it, but you could still see it different. My favorite one, and we never let... this i mean you know 12 year old me you know we never let this one out we were watching some movie and they mentioned premarital hugs because it blocked out the word it blocked out the word sex we used to go around going premarital hugs and those are the we used to say hugs not drugs and mom would be like stop it i love that like sex was a bad word too it wasn't just like It's a bad word, I guess, to be married and be an adult. That's bad. Can't do it,
- Speaker #0
yeah.
- Speaker #1
Even, yeah, married people, you can't. We don't want to talk about that. I never understand why some topics are off base. That's another thing that I got in trouble for a lot.
- Speaker #0
Yeah.
- Speaker #1
As a kid.
- Speaker #0
So do you remember much of your, like, involvement in church? Like, specifically, we're talking about youth group for today. But I mean, for me at least, I, you know, I. positioned it towards youth group because I felt like things took a turn or like got way more intense when I got to that age in terms of like the church's craziness. But is that when it kind of started for you? Do you remember as weird of things happening in the like elementary age? Or did it really start for you in youth group?
- Speaker #1
Yeah, I would definitely say that it was like puberty, youth group age, like sixth, seventh, eighth grade. It could be a mix of things though because like that's when i started uh like fifth sixth seventh grade is when i started skateboarding so i ended up finding more of those like counterculture i guess people and that's when i found more like punk rock and metal music and stuff like through that like scene um and all those folks um and then you know started i had some friends that like some like you know when when you're in those types of cultures you end up like hanging out with people of all ages and stuff like that so i was talking to dudes in their 18 19 20 years old and they would teach me stuff that i probably shouldn't have known i guess i don't know but like i remember this one guy i can't remember his name but he was an anarchist and he taught me about like i remember he taught us about like what the pledge of allegiance means and and i've never put my hand on my heart uh for no allegiance ever again And I got in a lot of trouble in school in sixth grade for that. And I had to go talk to the principal a few times. And he told me as long as I stand in the back and don't make a big deal of it, then that's fine. But that was after two or three talks. He tried to like, just do it. And I'm like, no, I'm not going. It's weird. I'm not going to do that. We just looked up what it meant to pledge allegiance to a country. And I was just like, I didn't like the feel. I didn't feel bad. So I didn't do that anymore. But yeah, there was just stuff like that. Just, you know, it's a nature nurture thing. Like, I don't know if my brain led me to that or if my brain changed because I've met all those people. I don't know.
- Speaker #0
That's interesting.
- Speaker #1
So do you think that's how I found counterculture was through skateboarding and punk rock for sure.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. Well, and I'm trying, you know, I'm thinking from my experience too, because I really wasn't in a youth group until I was at the youth group that we were at. And I remember like feeling both like I had a community. which was good, but also how restrictive it was. Like I never thought about secular versus non-secular music. Like it was one example.
- Speaker #1
Until then.
- Speaker #0
Until then. Yeah.
- Speaker #1
So your mom wasn't strict about that stuff before then? Or are you just too young to even really care or know?
- Speaker #0
I think it wasn't music for her. She never cared. Like she would take me to see NSYNC, Backstreet Boys.
- Speaker #1
Oh,
- Speaker #0
yeah. I saw like Destiny's Child.
- Speaker #1
My parents never.
- Speaker #0
It was something about moving to that small town because we moved around a lot and we were in big cities. She was like restrictive on movies like I didn't watch. So I don't get a lot of the like, and you know this. There's a lot of cultural references from a specific period of my life that I just don't get. Now, I've kind of learned them through the years. But in terms of like movie TV shows, things like that. No, not even Disney.
- Speaker #1
Because my wife's my wife's parents were Disney's evil people and Harry Potter's evil. oh yeah so that was a big one harry potter in our house like we weren't allowed and i that was one of the ones i remember arguing with them about because i'm like so lord of the rings is cool but harry potter's not explain that to me yeah or narnia narnia was always my example too i'm like yeah what about narnia well
- Speaker #0
it's written by a christian that's then that was always the yeah okay that's all it takes it's still magic we're still talking about magical experiences fiction here's something that i that i uh
- Speaker #1
I maybe have talked to you about this, but it's something that has blown my mind the past few years. Our parents believe in witchcraft. Have you thought about this before? Like they think they think really. That people, that you can read a book and cast spells on people. They're scared of this stuff. And if you, and why would they be scared if they don't think it's real?
- Speaker #0
And I think the whole, you know, youth group church, all of that, it feels so fear-based. Like all of it is so fear-based, which now that you're saying this, I'm like, yeah, you believe in all these things. You're terrified for like the spirits all around us. So there's this visceral, like we have to protect, we have to protect ourselves, protect our children. and it just becomes this like
- Speaker #1
oppressive suppressive bubble and then as kids we feel that you know we feel that fear oh yeah yeah and um i'm glad that i don't anymore but as a kid i definitely did i remember i mean this story just came up this week with my parents you know i think we told you this one uh i used to i used to just run into my parents room a couple nights uh in a row this when i was like five six something like that and uh and i was like there's demons under my bed And then, so dad put, I was doing it for like a few nights in a row. And so he put a Bible under my bed and he's like, the demons aren't going to come now. And I was like, okay, cool. And so, and that night I woke up, I was like, there's a demon under my bed. He goes, go check under there. And I looked and I said, there's no demons under here. And he went, that's right, go to bed. And then I was like, well, why are you teaching me about demons when I'm five?
- Speaker #0
Yeah.
- Speaker #1
You know?
- Speaker #0
Yeah.
- Speaker #1
Maybe that's the problem.
- Speaker #0
Well, I've been thinking about this lately with my kids because I have a five, a three, and a one-year-old. And as we, now, we still go to church. We'll get there, I guess, in a little bit for you. But our church experience now is very, very different. And we go to a very different kind of church. I will never in my life go to a Pentecostal and or a megachurch ever again.
- Speaker #1
My mom, I don't think my parents would either.
- Speaker #0
Really? Yeah. Yeah. But I was thinking about, I was like, I am so grateful at the way they talk about like our experience with God, like our interaction with the Bible, because it's very different than mine. So youth group specifically, because I think, yeah, what I'm thinking about and some of the things we're talking about is like the core of just, you know, the Pentecostal movement, I guess. And a lot of things that you see in these church situations. But how did that like, how did your youth group experience like? Talk to me about what that was like. What was youth group? What was your involvement with it? What did it look like?
- Speaker #1
When I was a kid, when I was young, before youth group, I was pretty into the church. It was kind of fun, but not so much being in the church. Like, you know, I had a bunch of friends. That was where a bunch of my friends were. We played football before and after. I was really into all that. You know, I started skateboarding. I had some friends there that... would skate with me and stuff like that so it was more of a social thing for me until you know sixth seventh eighth grade like youth group age and then it just became something that I had to do um and I wasn't I never really ever wanted to be there it was cool because I would see you know you and like Simon and you know my girlfriends and stuff like that yeah I saw him in Portland last time I was there actually. It's cool. So, yeah, it was just stuff like that. It was just like the only reason that I think I liked it at all was more the social aspect. I didn't care about the stories. The preaching stuff was just me dilly-dallying with my friends. I wasn't listening. I didn't care. But one good thing, I think, that came out of it for me, one thing I actually enjoyed was being on stage and playing music. And so I got to play. I was playing bass in the church. And I really liked that. It kept me involved. It gave me a reason to be there. Even though I didn't care for the music, it kept me involved in church and with those people. I probably wouldn't have been socialized with the people in the band otherwise. A couple of people, but you know what I mean? They weren't really in my circle. So I think that it was good for that. That gave me something to look forward to. But what was it for me? I don't know I question I'd have to it's hard for me to think about now like how where my mind was spiritually I don't I don't I really don't know I think that I it was all I knew and so that's just you know what felt normal to me I believe it I believe until pretty late in high school like sick like maybe even 16 17 I was like pretty like you know gays are bad type guy still. I got over that. Well, you know, last couple of years of high school or whatever. And then that's what I think that that was one of those things that like I just I don't know, the abortion thing and like LGBT stuff. And it's just crazy to me that we're still talking about this 20 years later. But like, yeah, those those were definitely two things that I remember, like, really like arguing with my atheist friends over a lot.
- Speaker #0
All right. In what way? Like when you believed those things, arguing with your atheist friends?
- Speaker #1
Yeah. Yeah.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. And I mean, I was even just thinking, and I don't think that I've ever asked you this or no, but like, do you feel like you had, and I hate to even say this is like such Christianese. Do you feel like you had a relationship with God through that experience?
- Speaker #1
At church?
- Speaker #0
I don't know. Well, yeah, I guess. Like, did any of that bring you closer or further away from a relationship with God?
- Speaker #1
I don't know. Cause it was always just, it was always in the air. Like, you know, I still heard the stories and I still sang the songs. But like a lot, it's hard, it's so hard for me to think about that now. I think so. I think at the time I was all, I think I was not all in on the church, but I think I was all in on, I believe I was all in on God and stuff. Like I was reading, I mean, I read through the Bible a few times, like in middle school, high school, I believe. Yeah. I had the message one. You remember?
- Speaker #0
Oh yeah, of course. That was the only one.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. I think I read through that twice in high school. But yeah, even then, I still remember thinking the Old Testament is such a snore, and I don't know why this is all in there. But yeah, I mean, I could probably, New Testament stuff, I could be a red-letter Christian, I suppose. But yeah, I think that I felt it. I think that I felt it, especially with the music. But then, you know, it could have just been the music. I don't know. But I mean,
- Speaker #0
I think that's a way, you know, that there are multiple ways you connect and experience.
- Speaker #1
I don't think I connected with it on an intellectual level.
- Speaker #0
At least through the church's perspective. Yeah. Well, I think so, because I mean, I even remember thinking back and, you know, you are a bit of a rascal. I feel like any time there was an open discussion, like you always brought the laughs, but you would.
- Speaker #1
I was the spoke in the wheel.
- Speaker #0
But you would disprove something. But, you know, you were very.
- Speaker #1
intentional well i don't know if intentional is right but probably intentional like you knew what you were talking about which always made me think like he does have a relation he does believe he just thinks this is like bullshit this part of it yeah well i mean even that like and i mean i don't know if you want to go this now or later but i i mean i don't i'm not an atheist but i don't know i i don't like calling myself a christian because i feel like it has a lot of baggage that uh i
- Speaker #0
don't um i don't want to even associate myself with yeah which is hard i i think similarly i'm like god well you know god has always been such a big part of my life like that relationship is so important however church has been such a traumatizing and and healing i mean this is the both of this conversation at least for me of like youth group for me was both it gave me a community in a time where otherwise I would have been totally lost and depressed and alone. You know what I mean? So it gave me community and it gave me, I think, a lane to connect with God. But everything else was harmful. You know what I mean? Like the dog.
- Speaker #1
You were more in than I was too.
- Speaker #0
It was deep. I was deep in.
- Speaker #1
I never really bit as hard as. especially the older i got the the more did you ever did you have to sign the true love weights thing oh yeah and i was i drew a dick on mine i didn't sign it that's so funny how much trouble did you get in for drawing that no just tell me of course he did he was so mad but but he but he told me he told me that i couldn't play bass on stage anymore and then he tried to get someone else to do it and they didn't show up and so he called me on stage man that's so good but yeah i refuse i just uh i just yeah that was one that i just i i uh even as a kid like i i remember thinking the premarital hugs thing was just a little silly and i was just like no i'm not gonna wait i don't think i'm gonna wait but I was also a boy
- Speaker #0
I think from a female's perspective honestly I don't know some way oh yeah I mean we would I felt like I would have been ostracized I mean and not to get into this but I think that was heavily influenced into then what I did with my life choices after that point in terms of relationships but um Yeah. So, but everything else, like I remember when we used to have, so like our youth group would have those bonfire nights. Do you remember this? And for like, for those of you listening, you essentially would bring, I don't know of another term, a sacrifice, it felt like. And it was a sacrifice of something secular or something bad. And you would come and you would give it up and you would burn it in the bucket of fire.
- Speaker #1
Guess how many things I burned? None. Zero things. Because I couldn't even tell my mom I had those movies in my closet. You know what I mean?
- Speaker #0
Didn't you bring Christian stuff to burn? I feel like you did that.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. I brought Michael W. Smith and something else. And he wouldn't let me throw it in. But you made me think of another fun story. The movie Saved. You remember that?
- Speaker #0
Oh, yeah. That was so sacrilegious. I couldn't watch that at the time.
- Speaker #1
So he preached about that we shouldn't be. watching this movie because it just come out i think on dvd do you remember me burning 40 or 50 dvds uh and bringing them to church and handing them out to people yeah he didn't like that yeah i i could see why well
- Speaker #0
you know what i used to type of stuff i like to do i would bring see this is where we differ i would like silently rebel i would bring an empty cd case And so he would, everybody would think I was giving my like, I think I brought Avril Lavigne and pink. Those were like my, the things that I was listening to at the time. 100%. Yeah. Because I would always take him out of the cases anyway. So I would just be the good little girl doing the right thing. But I was like, you guys have no clue.
- Speaker #1
So who's more of the rascal, the honest one or you?
- Speaker #0
I mean, I was a rascal.
- Speaker #1
I would rather just give him a middle finger. But you're like, you want to still hold up. You want to be, you know. Still, you know,
- Speaker #0
it's funny because I'm more like you now, but it's taken me years to like come to the place where I'm like, well, I can make people mad. It's OK to have an idea. I didn't know that was a possibility at the time. Like it wasn't even passive aggressive for me. It was like I didn't think I could resist. I didn't want I was scared of losing all of the good that that community brought me. Does that make sense?
- Speaker #1
But my community in there was the... troublemakers and stuff like that you know so i think maybe maybe to uh make a synthesis here maybe i was um you know trying to look for my community's you know respect or whatever by doing stuff like that you know yeah yeah i mean i don't know because my community wasn't the church it was the people critiquing the church in from within the church because we had to go there
- Speaker #0
yeah yeah I don't know well and I mean I remember having like lots of come especially with music I didn't care about movies honestly at that point but music was really big for me because I had come from this this life of I was dancing competitively and you know you're not listening to Christian music when you're dancing competitively and my mom was always fine with other types of music so for me that was like such a big deal I mean, I would have conversations with like your mom or other church leaders about why I thought it should be OK. But I also wasn't brave enough to then say, like, I'm still listening to this on the end because my mom knew. And from my perspective, I was like, well, if my mom knows and she's fine with it, like I kind of don't care for me.
- Speaker #1
And again, there could have been a little bit of me like kind of getting off on them, like not knowing or whatever. But I liked I mean, I had like a basket in my closet with like. movies and CDs that like they couldn't.
- Speaker #0
I know because I knew where that basket was and I would go get stuff from it.
- Speaker #1
And then in the back of my guitar amp, I had like a bunch of CDs back there. And I but I had the back off of it. So I put you know, I put the CDs in there to put the back of the amp back on. And that's where I had a bunch of my bunch of other stuff. But yeah, you knew where the basket was.
- Speaker #0
Oh, yeah, I would come over and like Lacey and I would go up to y'all had the coolest room upstairs and I would just we would go up there and look through all the movies we couldn't watch that's when I would come watch movies is I'd come to your house and find the good ones and I'm still that guy I'm still that guy you come to me for your movie recommendations I got you yeah
- Speaker #1
yeah yeah I mean it definitely was a thing as a kid where like I would purposely like go to Hollywood video or and like our you know blockbuster or whatever and find the rated R movie. I'm like, yes, this is the one. And, you know, so there was a little bit of, yeah, I wanted to do the thing I'm not supposed to do.
- Speaker #0
You just made me think too of the countless times. Cause like we would ride me and your fam, I would always ride with your family, like to church. I can't tell you the amount of trips where we would be on the way to or from church that we'd have to stop by Hollywood video that you and your mom would get in a fight. about something to do with some video that you rented. I mean, half the time.
- Speaker #1
But I'd already watched it. What are you going to do?
- Speaker #0
So good. So do as you get to and you show, you know, have the cartoon or whatever out as you walk toward the car and then you have eyes wide shut in the back and she won't know about them.
- Speaker #1
Of all the ones to sneak in there. If you're like me and dinner time creates so much anxiety and stress and you have very little time, especially if you have kids from the time you get home until bedtime, let me suggest Hungry Root. Hungry Root has been a game changer for our family. Every week I go in and I pick out our meals for the following week. I get to select four servings, which is huge. A lot of delivery services don't allow for multiple servings like that, but it's enough to feed our family. They are really affordable, but significantly cheaper than what you would get with some of the other subscriptions out there that tend to be very pricey and fancier, I would say, than Hungry Root. But it also offers a lot of healthy options. And so you can pick different dietary restrictions like I usually always select anti-inflammatory for the family, which is like a lot of fish, a lot of veggies, a lot of chicken. But you can also select vegan, vegetarian, high protein, gluten free, all these different variations that you can choose from. That's affordable. It's healthy. And almost every single meal is less than 30 minutes to make. And oftentimes if it's more than 30 minutes, it's just the bake time that takes a little bit longer. The prep time on almost all of these meals is very minimal that even somebody like me. who has self-proclaimed that I do not like to cook because it creates anxiety and stress in me, I can even make these meals. It's been easy on my husband, who's the one that cooks, because I prepare ahead of time what the recipes are going to be. I pick them on hungry route, and I choose things that are easy for his preference that I know him and the kids and myself are going to like. And it's made our dinnertime routine so much easier in a way that none of the other subscriptions have. And it's yet still affordable as if we were going to the grocery store and getting our groceries. So if you want to try it out, I highly recommend it regardless of if it's just you, just you and a partner or you and kids. It works for any size family, any size household. And if you're interested, you can click the link below and get $50 off your first box. So, okay. You've talked a little bit about, so music was really good for you. What were some of the, what were some of the other, like pretty down to your core. harmful things that the youth group experience had for you?
- Speaker #0
This is one that I've thought about a lot. And again, I don't know nature or nurture, but it had to have been nurture from the way that this happened with us. I guess we can start with our kids pastor was a pedophile. Our youth group pastor was a pedophile. I had a couple in in school. I remember my history teacher and some there was somebody else. And then so yeah, I had all these people, the ones that were telling me I'm bad.
- Speaker #1
Yeah,
- Speaker #0
we're the ones doing all this garbage behind closed doors. And I don't know that I'll ever have like a good relationship with people in power. I can't I have a hard time respecting anyone in a powerful position. My immediate response is like, What do you, okay, what about, this is going to be rules for me and not for you. That's what this is going to be. You're above it all and you're going to tell us what to do. And I know that you're doing horrible stuff behind the, behind the scenes. And, and I don't know that I'll ever escape that. And I do specifically blame the church that I grew up in because with, with where. That came from, you know, I've tried to get over it, but it's one of those things where like the closer you look and the more details you find out, you find out it's kind of true. Like, you know, these people aren't good and what they're looking for with power generally isn't good. There are some, obviously, there are some good people in politics and stuff like that and in powerful positions. Generally, I just want to critique. I just want to find the I just want to find the thing that's like, you know, that makes them look bad. And I know that that's because of... you know, I wasn't believed my entire life. And they didn't do anything to me, but I wasn't believed. And I knew, I knew like, there's something wrong with these guys. Like there's something wrong. And I would tell people and they'd be like, well, you, you know, you're just that little rascal that wants to like break the rules and tell everyone they're bad. I'm like, no, they're bad. They're the ones telling me I'm bad. And they're the bad ones. That's what I, and I remember like tell, telling my, you know, my mom that, you know, there's something wrong. I don't like the way that he does, you know. he looks at people or, you know, I don't like the way he treats people or like, you know, he had that kid spend the night really at his house. Like, I remember like these weird things that would happen. And then I was told, you know, I was the bad one and I shouldn't be. testing these people. I shouldn't be questioning authority, you know, but now I'm like, I'm always going to, there's no way I'm ever going to not be questioning authority. But then again, is that good? I don't know. But it's pretty cynical a lot of times.
- Speaker #1
And I think there's both sides to it. Yeah, it is pretty cynical and that could create a really hard time in trusting anyone. And at the same time, you know, I think you're right. Like people in power should be questioned at least until they, to a point. Right. And I think that's maybe where the like. Is it good or not? I don't know. But yeah,
- Speaker #0
it's hard for me to find that middle way, I guess, in there.
- Speaker #1
Well, and also I hate the fact that like, I feel like you're a pretty intuitive person. Right. And so the fact that people when you're speaking up, because I didn't really realize you had told people in the, you know, for that example. Well,
- Speaker #0
I didn't know.
- Speaker #1
Well, but you knew something.
- Speaker #0
I felt it and it felt wrong. And then these same people were the ones telling me I'm bad. And I'm like, there's something wrong with you, dude. Like, I don't know. You know.
- Speaker #1
But I think just to have somebody go like, oh, Thomas, so dismissive. And I think that sucks because again, it's this, at least for me, one of the experiences that's negative from church is it almost taught me to disconnect in a way. It's this weird dichotomy for me. I did connect more to my mind, my body, and my spirit because of that space. I'm not saying I believed in all the ways they forced you to do it. It was very forced, right? It was like, you have to have this. physical reaction in a spiritual setting to show us that you are, quote, experiencing God, or we don't think you're saved, or we don't believe you.
- Speaker #0
With evidence of speaking in tongues was the-
- Speaker #1
Or falling out on the floor.
- Speaker #0
Yeah.
- Speaker #1
Or shaking. So that was horrible. And it created this, I think, for most people there, this falseness and this facade of you have to put on an act. which you then don't experience God because you're focused more on what it's showing up for others instead of actually connecting to God. But even with that said, it did kind of force me to be present and sometimes connect with God, which then allowed me to outside of that space, connect with God in a very deep way. But yeah, I mean, I think there's also this undercurrent for us in that experience where like, I also knew something was wrong. I didn't know what. But there's always something in your gut where you're like, ugh. And you mentioned very specific leadership. But from my experience as a woman, I can't tell you how so many of the last few years I've been processing, even the fact that you had middle school girls, very close, and boys, it doesn't matter gender. But for me, with these leaders who were 18, 19, 20, 21-year-old men. who were then paired with young girls like me. And there were multiple experiences where I had people take advantage of me, like different men who were adults. And there was zero protection or zero processes in place to make sure those situations didn't happen.
- Speaker #0
You know what I mean? Well, they're men of God, so you shouldn't be, you know. You shouldn't say negative anything about them. And these are just laws of man, not of God. Right. So, you know, yeah, I, yeah, I can't speak to that, you know, being a dude, but I've heard too many of those stories. It's really depressing.
- Speaker #1
yeah and I mean even from the perspective I'm not saying age and this is where I get kind of like because you know fast forward and my husband and I like me and Bennett we were youth ministry leaders at our local church here for years. And so I know this experience of being an adult who's working with those who aren't adults, but I feel like it's a very different situation than, I mean, our experience in youth group, like you would ride places with your leaders in the youth group. Like they would take you places, you'd go to camps. There was no like background checks. There was no, nothing to like vet these.
- Speaker #0
adults who were caring for these underage kids going we went to like denver and austin like we went orlando like we did we took like long trips without our parents and without and with only a few chaperones very few like three for like 30 kids yeah and then the and then the pedophiles in the same hotel room with all these other kids yeah and the middle school's there with the high school
- Speaker #1
Oh, and that's the other thing. A lot of the chaperones weren't even, okay, let me say this. They were, quote, adults because they were older than 18. Yeah. They were like 19 and 20-year-olds still hanging out with like middle school, high schoolers without.
- Speaker #0
any like systems in place so it's just like wild stuff like that that i'm like what were we doing and why it's it's just but i think a lot of that yeah it's the church but it's also there's a small town life like everyone thinks like this can't happen we know everybody like this this isn't gonna happen you know because we we know we know these people they're you know we know where they live we know their mom you know we know everything about them like they're not gonna act out and you now. And unfortunately, as as someone who did actually hide a lot of my stuff in my closet, you know, these people were too, you know, and and but it was actually harmful. It wasn't just eyes wide shut in a basket in my closet. It was like, yeah, they're doing stuff to kids. And but like, I just think that people aren't. I don't know if they aren't aware of how like a dishonest and. gross people can be or if they just refuse to even to acknowledge it you know um there's uh my favorite director david lynch he um let me find this quote that david foster wallace said about him he just made me think of it because he he talked about how a lot of david lynch's movies like it mixes the silliness with like the darkness or like the mundanity with the darkness and David Foster Wallace had a good quote an academic definition of lynching which is a term that a lot of film nerds use refers to a particular kind of irony where the very macabre and the very mundane Combined in such a way as to reveal the former's perpetual containment within the latter and I kind of I Kind of how I see the world now. I see a white picket fence and I think somebody's buried under that, you know, like or you know I see a guy, I see the smiley, charismatic man, and I go, what are you up to? What are you trying to do? You know, like, that's just where my mind goes.
- Speaker #1
So is there ever a time, because part of me gets a lot of that, like, there are definitely, I think for me, that changes day to day, where some days I'm like, so optimistic. And so, like, everyone is good. The world is good. And then some days I'm like, the world is a disaster. The world is a mess. The world is not safe. but Are there ever moments for you where you experience the other side of that? Is it any situation where you see that?
- Speaker #0
I think, yeah, I think most of the time I'm living, I would say most of the time. So there's this, there's this term called optimistic nihilism. I don't know if you've come across this before. I've known nihilism,
- Speaker #1
but I haven't heard that.
- Speaker #0
It comes from a kind of an existentialist view, but the idea is that like, nothing means anything. Right. So there's no inherent meaning or purpose in anything. So go have fun. Why would you choose? Why would you choose to suffer when nothing means anything? Like nothing means anything. That's amazing. You know, so it took me a while to find that. But I think that I think that I've gotten there. I mean, just like, you know, you look at the politics of today or whatever, and I don't want to talk about it. But like, you know, it's it's it's rough out there. but if you're not having fun with it you you can't do anything about it but vote that's all you can do you can you you specifically because you're so busy i mean you know other people have time they can run for office or you know something like that but you know that most of us can't do much but vote i don't and i know who i'm voting for i don't need to what how often do it what details do i really need to know here i can think this is all fucked But look at how many movies that I can watch this year that I'm so excited about. I have 60 albums this year that I'm like excited about listening to.
- Speaker #1
60?
- Speaker #0
I have a list I can send it to you. Oh my God. But like, you know, there's so much good TV. Like me and my wife, like I have fun with her every single day. And like I have my cats and stuff like that. So I think it's kind of what David Foster Wallace was saying here. It's the perpetual containment within the latter. I think that I've kind of integrated it. I definitely had more of a cynical lens for quite a while. And I don't know if we want to take it this way, but psychedelics really helped me out. I think that they helped me see the world through seeing how it taught me empathy, I think. And how different the same world can look through a different lens.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. Well, and I think, I mean, this makes a lot of sense because even in my experience of knowing you and, you know, seeing how you were in youth groups, seeing how you were as like preteen teenager all the way to now, I've seen that progression. I've seen how you've changed. I, you know, I haven't. I only know it's because of psychedelics and some other things because you've told me, but like I've seen the way that has taken shape in your life. And it's funny because I feel like you're one of those people that embodies this like idea of even this podcast of the bothness, right? Like the both and of you question, you do have this piece of like distrust or questioning, but also the most accepting and loving and like non-judgmental person. probably the least
- Speaker #0
judgmental person i've ever met like i feel like i could tell you literally anything and you'd be like okay yeah on this personality test i took the big five i score outlandish on the uh openness yeah i'm like i'm the top like i'm in the top like one percent or whatever of openness and pretty low on agreeableness as you probably yeah
- Speaker #1
but i think like Your ability to, and you use the word integrate, which I feel like is such a great word here.
- Speaker #0
Synthesis, I think is another good one.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. Synthesis. And maybe that's a better word. You synthesize the both sides of it. And not that there's only two sides, right? I think there could be many, but the two most apparent or visible sides. And so I think even of something like youth group, it's like, yeah, there were these really tragic and horrible and harmful and toxic things that we and many other people have experienced. And yet there was some good, not to silver lining it, but like you have the ability to take both of those things from that experience and more, probably more than just those two things. One thing you said made me think about something you said earlier that we didn't go back to when you said none of these are home to me. And earlier you said something like I never felt at home at home. Can you talk a bit about that? that? Like, did you mean at home or at church or at home at church? Or what did you mean?
- Speaker #0
Yeah, a little bit of both. I was somehow I was always a city kid living in a small town, you know. So I mean, every weekend, whenever as often as I could, I would be in Birmingham, you know, Birmingham was two hours away, Memphis was two hours away, Nashville was four hours away, Atlanta was four hours away. So those were the places that I'm that I'm like, Oh, here we go. These are my people. This is art. This is movies. This is music. This is comedy. These are my people. This is where I want to, this is where all the cool kids are. I look at all their outfits. This is sick. You can buy clothes like that in Columbus, in Mississippi. And so like, for me, it was, yeah, I finally found, and again, I don't know if it was like, if that was the way that I was always going to be, or if, uh, if I had some like ick. from these people and I just wanted to not make sure that people don't associate me with them. But I think that that's what a lot of it was. I just didn't want to, I didn't feel like these were my people. And then I found the 10 people in our town that also did not feel like it was their home. And that was my home were those people that, and that's why I found family stuff will always get to me. I think I told you, if you haven't seen Brigsby Bear, that's my recommendation for everybody today here.
- Speaker #1
I haven't seen Brigsby Bear.
- Speaker #0
But it's about this guy who he is kidnapped when he's a young kid. And then he grows up and his parents made this TV show to show him, to like teach him everything. And that's how he learned about life and everything was through the show called Brigsby Bear. He's the only person in the world who's seen this show. And he escapes. And now the only thing he knows in the whole world is Brigsby Bear. And nobody else knows what Brigsby Bear is. And so people are trying to help him finish the movie. But also he's trying to understand this new world. And he finds that found family through his love of, I mean, art. but it was also something that was used to, I mean, keep him kidnapped and stuff like that. So there's this like weird, the modernity and the macabre together as one thing. And that really, that movie really touches me. I think for the, the found family, everybody coming together around art and then finding yourself through that, even if it's, you know, maybe harmful on the surface, you know what I mean?
- Speaker #1
Yeah.
- Speaker #0
That's a good one.
- Speaker #1
Well, now I have to watch it because I feel like that's exactly what even we're talking about today.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, I didn't think about it.
- Speaker #1
It's so much the both and of most experiences in life, right? And I don't even mean both and in the sense that there's always a good and a bad. It could be various feelings, thoughts, emotions, whatever. They shape you. They shape you. And I think. There's usually a different lens you can always see something through. Whether you put the term good or bad on it doesn't really matter. But yeah, so in thinking about kind of wrapping up this part of it, when you think about, okay, what are the key things? These were harmful. These were messed up. I definitely don't want to take these things with me as I move into continue on in my life. And even as you have kids, these are things I absolutely don't want to take. don't want to recreate with my kids or myself? And then what are the things you would take from that experience of like youth group and church that you for yourself and or your family would want to take?
- Speaker #0
I think, I mean, having a sense of community, I think is awesome. And I am jealous of these people who have that honestly, you know, and genuinely. And I think that that's probably why I would have a hard time ever going to church again, other than weddings and funerals, I guess. But they don't feel like my people. It doesn't feel genuine to me. I mean, maybe if I found whatever church-type thing that you go into or whatever, maybe something like that. I don't know. I don't know if these are my people either. But, like, I would have to it would be more to me about the people because, like, it wouldn't be about the music, clearly, because I'm not, you know. And it wouldn't be about the stories because I've heard them, you know, and so it would need to be the community for me. And then it's just like, you know, is that, is that really my community? Or is it the dive bar with the shoegaze band tonight? You know what I mean? Like, I don't know. Is it, is it the, the, the, the movie nerds going to see the Mulholland drive? I'm going to see Mulholland drive tomorrow. I've never seen the theater. And so, uh you know, maybe those are my people. And, and maybe that's my community. I don't know. But I do think community is important. I do think music is important. I do think that connecting spiritually is important. I do think spirituality is incredibly important. I don't care for organized religion. I want to say at all. But I think that's just a personal thing. Like I don't if I think that if someone else finds that community and finds those people and finds them music and finds those stories and that's what makes them be good if they if they need that then that's good i need you know comedy and movies and music and going to see live bands and you know a beer here and there that's my church but i think that um and so i'm not i don't want to poopoo anyone's church you know if that's your church then you go do that that's awesome i don't i don't feel connected that way it's not genuine for me that way But maybe it could be. I don't know. I'm not completely against it, but man.
- Speaker #1
It'd have to be the right, yeah.
- Speaker #0
It'd have to be the community. It would be the community. And I don't think it would be anything else, unless it was like a friend of mine preaching. Like my best friend has a PhD in theology. Like I would go to his church, but he's not doing that.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. So what are ways that you stay connected and that you would want to like traditions or practices that you would want? you and your family to do that help you connect with your spirituality or whatever that is for them?
- Speaker #0
As they're younger, meditation, I think, will hopefully be a big part of our lives. We can call it prayer. I don't care. It's the same thing to me. And there are different ways of doing meditation. There's different ways of reading meditation. There's different ways of going about it. And I think that if you can connect with, you know, a God or something, that way. I think that's great. But I do think that those, the spiritual practices are important, even if you don't believe in God, I think that, you know, connecting with that part of yourself that talks to yourself is important. I, I will want to find that. And I think that I think that that stuff's important. I think that that stuff helps you connect to yourself and with others. And if you want to get real Buddhist or whatever, the collective conscious that we're all part of, I think maybe that's what gets us there in some way. It could be music. It could be movies. It could be whatever you connect on. And if that's church for you, awesome. Keep doing that.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. Yeah. No, it's funny. When you were talking about our church, most of the things he talks about are deconstructing your faith. So it's probably the only church we would go to.
- Speaker #0
It probably would. Yeah, up my alley. Well, that actually was something that I was thinking about, too. Like deconstruction. I'm sure he talks about this. I'm more interested in reconstruction. I've heard Pete Holmes talk about this. Yeah, so good. in a way where he said it was like he took all the furniture out of his house and put it in the yard and then was like what pieces do i want to keep and then we can buy new stuff too but like what pieces do i want to keep and i try to think about that i guess from church too of like you know we can keep the god thing we can keep how important music is and how spiritual it can be and connect this all and prayer and meditation and community. But... Yeah, I like awareness is, I think, important.
- Speaker #1
I think awareness and one thing I'm in the space of right now is, and I think you articulated it really well, is there's deconstruction, reconstruction. And awareness, to me, is part of a huge part of deconstruction. But also, it's really hard to then move on from that, right? Once you're aware, it can be overwhelming because you're aware of all these things. It's like, well, what do I do now? What do I change now? How do I move forward?
- Speaker #0
You feel outside of it,
- Speaker #1
yeah. And I think. the last question I want to kind of ask you around this is there are so many oftentimes contradictory or seemingly contradictory thoughts and feelings and beliefs that we have about experiences. So around this, around your experience with church youth group, were you aware of it at the time, like the contradiction in all of these things, or is that only something that you've become aware of later and processed later?
- Speaker #0
Well, I mean, that was, you know, but We often talked about that sort of stuff growing up, me and my friends, about how these people do this and this and this and this, and they're telling us that we're bad for doing this. Really, I'm bad for watching that movie after you got drunk and hit your wife? Really? You're going to tell me that? and so there was a lot of that sort of stuff but you get older and you realize that not everything's black and white and you know of course that these people are just adults with problems they are all grown-up babies just like the rest of us and who knows what happened in their past life or in their past not their past life or their past life i don't know um and so you know you get you try to just empathize more with like where people are but yeah the second someone gets hateful or something i go i don't know i'm done with that i'm done with that person you know it's not really my job I don't feel like my brother's keeper as much anymore. I don't really care if some, you know, if someone does something like against their religion, like that's not, I don't, it's not, I'm not going to tell them to stop to like, you know. So yeah, I don't know. I think that it's a little, yeah, I understand respecting people, respecting people and respecting things that they hold in high regard or whatever. But the second it becomes like hateful or something, I'm going to, I'm going to tear that down. where you you know i don't i don't mind being disrespectful of that of like of people who are hateful and mean i don't care i don't care who you are i don't care what costume you're wearing you know yeah so what would you say to people who are struggling to like synthesize integrate the
- Speaker #1
multiple often contradictory thoughts and feelings like what would you say to people who are struggling to like be aware of that. deal with it and how have you found other than I mean I know you said psychedelics so there's psychedelics that you might recommend the the there's a quote that I think about
- Speaker #0
I might be Ron Das I don't remember where I heard it but he said though if the world always looks ugly clean your lens and and I think that that's a big one of just that don't get caught in the black and white it's not it's
- Speaker #1
never it's never yeah
- Speaker #0
it's somewhere in the middle and if if if everything looks disgusting and awful to you you're not doing the work you're not looking hard enough um are there things that are like that probably but like not usually so like don't don't say always don't say everyone don't say never um because you know i didn't like olives until a couple years ago yeah I don't like olives, but yeah,
- Speaker #1
I get your point. I'm just saying, everyone try stuff here and there. And yeah, you might be in a different place now than you were then. And your taste buds might have changed. Your biology might have changed. Your thinking around something might have changed. Your philosophy might have changed. Who you're surrounded by might have changed. And all that is fine. But yeah, I think that that's a big one for me. Just make sure that if everything looks terrible, that's on you, usually. You could read Frank Victor, was it Victor Frank? Victor Frank. Man's Search for Meaning. Yeah, that sort of thing where if you, and I don't even know that, I don't think that was even hope for him. It was just existential of like, yeah, I am in the worst. This can't get any worse, but I'm going to... Camus is the existentialist philosopher, but he had this idea where... You know Sisyphus, the guy that rolls the boulder up the hill for eternity? He said, we must imagine Sisyphus smiling. And I think that that's important. Yes, this goes back to the optimistic nihilism. Yeah, nothing matters. At the end of it, we die. how can you have fun in the middle you know what i mean it's the only shot that we know we get you know true so i i don't know why anyone would do spend their time doing something that they hate more than unless you're getting paid well you know well
- Speaker #0
and even then just pay off of that doesn't doesn't last very long well thank you for just talking to me today this is one of my favorite things to talk about and especially with you around youth group and i know you get it and i I know we've had. Countless conversations over the years about many things, church and youth.
- Speaker #1
We could have talked about so much more.
- Speaker #0
I feel like part two and three, just human videos even. We won't go there today.
- Speaker #1
I have it.
- Speaker #0
There was actually another episode. I meet with Lacey and Audrey and we talk about growing up together and our friendship through the years. And we talk about human video and they didn't believe me. And I was like, Thomas has receipts. He's got video evidence. Well, as we wrap up, something I ask everybody as they're on is, it's a segment called ridiculous or relatable does not have to be related at all to this conversation or topic today. But is there something that you do in your life, a habit, a quirk, that is absolutely ridiculous, but maybe relatable to somebody? And if you need some examples, like I can give you one.
- Speaker #1
You might want to give me examples. Just the first thing that I think off the top of my head is I've watch. more movies than any person probably ever would even consider. I mean, I've watched, I think 500 something movies last year. Um, and, and, uh, that's just my favorite. That's my hobby. That's just what I do. I'm not into sports. I'm not in the news. I'm not into politics. I don't have any kids. Um, you know, if it's nine o'clock, that's probably what I'm doing.
- Speaker #0
That's good.
- Speaker #1
Give me examples. I don't know.
- Speaker #0
So one I'll give you that I saved specifically in this, for this conversation with you is grass, grass feet.
- Speaker #1
Oh, yeah. Grass feet. I forgot about grass feet.
- Speaker #0
One of the few people that knows grass feet. So I have this weird thing where I absolutely hate to walk through the grass that is wet or dewy because then I get grass feet. And grass feet is just like this term that I use for when my feet get little pieces of grass stuck to them and it just creeps me out. I hate it. Like, ugh, I will not walk through a wet field. It does not sound desirable to me at all. It makes me cringe because I have grass feet.
- Speaker #1
Uh, I mean, you made me think of, you know, I have the styrofoam aversion. Well,
- Speaker #0
that's a good one.
- Speaker #1
I hate the sound of styrofoam so much. If there's a to-go container in the car, I can't, I have a really hard time driving. Like it's all, it's all that I hear is just, I don't, I don't know. Yeah. That's, that's what I thought about.
- Speaker #0
Styrofoam. That's a great one because. that's one of the few things I remember that could get on your nerves. Like not much gets on your nerves.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. No, I'm unflappable. Yeah. That one. Yeah. I don't know what it, I don't know what it is, but it's just something, some part of my brain hates that sound so much. Oh, here, here's one. There's a fun one that this actually came up this weekend because, uh, with my wife, you know, I think, you know, this about me. I don't really sleep and food isn't very important to me. Allie My wife loves that because when we go out to eat, she gets to pick two meals. And I just got, yeah, no, we just share because I literally don't care what I'm eating. Yeah. So that's a fun, there's a little positive quirk for you.
- Speaker #0
That's so funny. Well, so good to talk to you. So good to have you here.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, good to talk to you.
- Speaker #2
I just wanted to say thank you so much to Thomas for being here today and talking to me about youth group days. It really is such an important conversation for a lot of us to have. And I'm so grateful that he could be here with us today. And thank you to each of you for just. Taking the time to listen to today's episode, I really can't tell you how much it means to me that you would take time out of your day to be here with me and with others who are also trying to sit with the bothness of life. And if you haven't done so already, please take a moment to follow on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts and take a moment to leave a quick rating and review of the show on Apple podcasts by clicking the link in the show notes below. Your support really does make all the difference and a simple follow or a rating and review is such a huge boost for the podcast. Not only is it impactful for the show, but it also really helps others who might be struggling with some of these same things to find us. And I love hearing from each of you. So please reach out to me on Instagram and let me know what are some topics that you would like to hear coming up? Or do you have a story that really encompasses the idea of tension or bothness in your life? So follow the show on Instagram at it's both podcast to join the conversation and get behind the scenes content. You can also send me an email directly at itsbothpodcast at at gmail.com and let me know what you'd like to hear or if you have a story that you want to share. Thank you again for listening and remember, it's okay to be in the messy middle because so many times in life, it isn't either or. It's both.
