- Speaker #0
I think, yeah, it's both pieces. I feel so fulfilled in my career. I feel so proud of my work. I like, I manage a team. So I'm able to actually see other people support their own families. And like, again, but I think there's so much meaning there that like, I can't imagine not having that part of my identity. But I also feel this pressure to be with my kids all the time. And to me, like feel the guilt of like traveling for work. And I feel that. Yeah. The longer, longer I go, the more I'm like, it's possible. And I love seeing the ways that different workplaces are supporting women nowadays, but it's still like, I think it's still a really hard decision for women. I don't think it's gotten super easy to know if you're doing it right. Right.
- Speaker #1
Like, yeah. Yeah.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. And I don't, I don't know anybody that feels anyone staying at home, working part-time, working full-time. I don't know if any woman that I've met is like, I know I'm doing the right thing.
- Speaker #2
Welcome to It's Both, the podcast where we explore the messy, beautiful contradictions of being human. I'm your host, Nikki P, and each week I sit down with real people navigating life's complexities, those moments when life isn't just one thing, it's so many. Today's episode is really for anybody who's ever felt the weight of being both a parent and a professional, a nurturer and an achiever. I sit down with my friend Heather and we dig into the messy, honest and honest often, hilarious realities of being working moms. We talk about the tension between career and motherhood, the evolving identity of parents, and the societal pressure to constantly justify our choices. From daycare decisions to stay-at-home dads, from guilt to pursuing our own personal growth, we cover a lot of things about what it is like to be a working mom. Heather even helped me to find my own aha moment when I realized how my daycare and those that are helping watch my kids now as young children. they really are an extension of my community. And if we were in a place where that might be different and had family and a lot of close friends close by to be that community, then maybe my own decision might have been different. So this conversation is definitely a reminder that parenting is not one size fits all. It is a constant negotiation, basically a social experiment, a space where humor, community, and clarity in your own values really does matter. So let's jump in.
- Speaker #1
So today we are talking about being a working mom and sort of the bothness that comes from that, which I'm excited about because I'm also a working mom. And so I think this is definitely a topic that for me is close to my heart and also something that you and I have just, I feel like always been able to connect on and talk about.
- Speaker #0
I think it's a bonding thing because I was, I think, yeah, we had talked, I had known a lot of friends of mine were moms. or they were women who didn't have kids. So it felt like I got like my needs met with like some of my friends and half like half with others. So yeah, talking to you has always been awesome because it's like, yes, you get the full, like sort of the full picture, but then also, yeah, the push and the pull and it's, yeah, it's different. It's just a different experience, right?
- Speaker #1
So for sure. Yeah. And before we jump in, can you just tell everybody a little bit about who you are a little bit about who Heather is?
- Speaker #0
Yeah, I'm Heather. Nicole and I met. uh, through our husbands in Nashville. I think Devin, I think I first heard about you, Nicole, through Devin DJ'd your wedding. Is that right? He did.
- Speaker #1
I forgot about that. He did. He was such a good DJ.
- Speaker #0
So my husband is a very musical and talented. We just moved our family out to Denver, Colorado. It's been like a long-term dream of ours. So I have three kids. They are three, seven and nine, two girls and then a boy. Um, and we love Colorado. I was just telling Nicole, it snowed six inches of snow here overnight Easter weekend for context. So it is, it is fun, but it'll be nice and sunny tomorrow. That's just how it works out here. Um, I'm trying to think I've been at my, I guess, work-wise I've been in my current role. I help do all kind of contracting of Coke and Pepsi deals. It's a very niche level consulting firm, but I've been there for going on nine years, kind of distributed. Yeah, I know. It's like the day I realized that and I was like, okay,
- Speaker #1
but we, yeah,
- Speaker #0
we, we work remotely and then we travel for clients. So a lot of my world, like on a given week is taking care of our kids. And then either I'll travel for a work trip, be in my home office in my house. So really flexible in terms of where we can be geographically, which has been awesome. Um, and then I'm trying to think my husband, Devin stays home with our kids, which is again, fun, like. not always as relatable, but really fun people can like that can relate to it. But I had we had two kids and Devin worked and I worked and then we had our third kid and we're like, this is not gonna,
- Speaker #1
it's not sustainable. Yeah. So outside of what you do, what else do you like?
- Speaker #0
Yeah. Yeah. I think like in that vein, like fitness is a huge value for me. Like, I think that's something that I'm not out there going to try to be a coach or do all these things, but like having some sort of fitness every day is important. So Colorado is amazing because we've got bike trails in our backyard that we can go to all anywhere we want to go to. So I've gotten a bike since I've been out here and gotten to go on trails. And that's like a nice time to like drive an hour away go back um and then because it's so outdoorsy, that's what most people like to do out here. So everyone's like, like every friend that I've met, like would be happy to go on a walk instead of going out to eat, which is like exactly what I want to do. So I love that. I have been discovering like being playful and fun is really important. And I think it is really hard when there's so many serious roles that are like part of your day to day. Like if I don't work, the kids don't eat. Like that, that my sister, so I have two sisters that are older than me. And my oldest sister and I have become like really close later in life. Like during the pandemic, we called each other on FaceTime every day just to be like, are you okay?
- Speaker #1
Yeah.
- Speaker #0
And the kids were little and we just kind of kept that trend up. So she's like the number one person that I like just play with. And the number one way we play is like making up really silly business ideas. So for example, she herself has a dog. She lives in the city in Baltimore. And the dog needs to go run every day. But her and my brother-in-law are both like. they're academics they've got a lot going on so they built like a treadmill for the dog and put an ipad screen up on the wall with like no braces and like this little harness and ray will run on the treadmill for hours a day are you serious we're like what would that business be called and so we'll just sit around on facetime and like crack up about different business names and like that brings me a lot of joy but i also devon i talk about this a lot of like trying to figure out yeah ways we can tap into just being silly because Life is pretty serious this year, politically, everything is so serious.
- Speaker #1
Yeah.
- Speaker #0
That's our like main goal this year. It would just be like fun. Yeah. Yeah. TV shows, all that kind of stuff.
- Speaker #1
That's so good. I love that one. And that is so specific to like who you are. And I love hearing that. Both of the, all those things really. But it's funny because I don't know what it is about, you would think like having little kids would push you into being silly, but it's almost like it does the opposite. it and like At least for my kids, they're pretty I love them so much. High energy and wild, like all of them.
- Speaker #0
You're exactly right.
- Speaker #1
They are. And I'm like, what is this is too much for me. I am not that's not my energy level, y'all. But it's pushed me almost into less and less fun because it's almost like Yeah, you're trying to balance it. So I love that idea of engaging more in that because the more I have Also this year, for some reason, probably the heaviness of the world, but like the more I've pushed into that silliness, it's been easier to like just take a deep breath and let go of some things. So I love that. So talk to me about being a working mom. I think there's probably going to be so many layers and different ways this interconnects to different pieces of your life. But talk to me about the both or the tension that comes with, like what are the two sides or the multiple sides that come with that for you?
- Speaker #0
Yeah. This is a great question because you're right. There are so many different facets and it can get pretty polarizing out there. Like if you get on social media and like there's, there's a stay at home mom culture and there's a working mom culture and it's like, you can't be both. So I love some of the premise that you've got around your podcast because it's both, but it's also like things are seasons. Like there's no like, yes, I'm a working mom and that's been my identity since I've had children for nine years, but like I will have kids until I like pass away and they'll probably be super. where I'm not a working mom or Nicole, my favorite phrase lately is that everyone's a working mom, but like some work is like paid and some is not paid. I was like, oh, I like that.
- Speaker #1
That's so good. I really like that. Yeah.
- Speaker #0
At my paid work, non-paid work like that. But I actually think I, cause I've had to unpack this for a long time. I mean, so I, my, my backstory is I grew up in Alabama for most of my upbringing, went to youth group and was really surrounded by like this patriarchal society where moms like the most high value and function for a woman is to stay home and have children. And not all Christianity like that. It's just where I was. And like every mom that I knew stayed home. My own mom stayed home until I was in seventh, third grade. I'm the youngest of three. And so it wasn't, and it was very much martyrdom. Like that, not, that might not be what people want to do, but that is what's right and the man should leave the household both from like the christian standpoint but also from like making money and that men are only good men if they are the ones doing that so like that's how i grew up now devin husband grew up totally different. So he grew up and went to a Lutheran church, but his mom was the breadwinner. She was the one with the college degree and every woman in his life had a master's degree, was working hard. So that was one of the things when we first got married, we went through like marriage counseling and we had to draw our family trees and like how we think of family. And that was a delightful moment for me because I had then gone through college, never thinking I wouldn't work. I never considered being a mom. I never considered not working like that. I don't know. So just interestingly enough, anyways, but it was clear, like Devin was like very supportive of a woman working because it's all he'd ever seen. And I was under pressure of like, maybe I need to stop working because that's all I've ever seen.
- Speaker #1
Yeah.
- Speaker #0
So it was nice to get partnered with, to be partnered with someone like that. And then I think obviously you start out working. I've really enjoyed my work. I have a master's degree. Like I think we've related on that too. I've just, I've worked hard to get to where I am. I really do. work. I feel purposeful. And so when we got pregnant with a first, it was like not a question if I'd go back to work or not. But that's kind of when the pressure of course started people asking, are you going back to work or not? Like things I wouldn't ask men being worried. My boss was worried I wouldn't come back. And I just thought it was so crazy, but I did, I did have a lot of friends at the time who were appalled that I would consider putting my kids in daycare so small. And really, yeah, it was really hard. It was, but it was, it's hard. It's like, I think back then I was really like working moms are the best, very trying to polarize. Like I was polarized too. I was like, this is crazy. So I think my thoughts have evolved a lot over time of like, cause I've seen a lot of moms who have taken off time for seasons and come back. And I think men, my husband has worked, but he also not worked while we've been through this. But I do think there's like the identity struggle is hard. And I think. Even if you get really confident, like at this point in my life, I've had three children, I've had three maternity leaves. They've been too short. I've like gone through like breastfeeding journeys and like done that on the road and kind of had all of that and survived it all.
- Speaker #1
And so now women can,
- Speaker #0
I keep seeing new opportunities for women. It feels like it's getting more normalized in the workplace, but there are still times like even as recent as this year, when I went to the women's conference, something they said that can be hard for moms. And I think that I'm still like. a decade into my identity of doing this, but still struggle with bringing up my family at work because I still think it's going to be seen as a limiter. So, you know, the men at work have no problem talking about like my kid's got a soccer game or whatever, but I'm still pretty afraid, reasonably so, that if I, well, that morning call conflicts with me getting my kids ready for school, which it often does. Like at the 6 a.m. call, it's a 7 a.m. call. I can't do it because of my kids. I'm so nervous to say that because everyone knows my husband stays home. So then I'm like, well, they seem to do that, which I, you know, is tough. And, and I feel like I get to these breaking points where then I'm like, can I please just be home with my kids? And, uh, like I'm seen as emotional, but it's, it's not real. It's all definitely like my own take, but I was at this women's conference. They were like, if you can talk about your family more while you're at work, like it helps normalize for everyone. like that's part of your life in the same way someone who's caretaking an older adult like or has a dog that needs out or anything but I did start to realize when was the last time I talked about what was going on at home or like when I travel for work why don't I mention like it was sad time my kids instead of seeing them this week you know um so yeah like I think yeah it's both pieces I feel so fulfilled in my career. I feel so proud of my work. I like. I manage a team so I'm able to actually see other people support their own families and like again we should have this too but I think there's so much meaning there that like I can't imagine not having that part of my identity um but I also feel this pressure to be with my kids all the time and to be like I feel the guilt of like traveling for work and I feel that so um yeah the longer longer I go, the more I'm like, it's possible. And I love seeing. the ways that different workplaces are supporting women nowadays. But it's still like, I think it's still a really hard decision for women. I don't think it's gotten super easy to know if you're doing it right. Right. Like,
- Speaker #1
no. Yeah.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. And I don't know anybody that feels anyone staying at home, working part-time, working full-time. I don't know if any woman that I've met is like, I know I'm doing the right thing.
- Speaker #1
Right. Oh, no way. None of us. I think nobody knows. Or at least I hope not because I'm like, or if you do, let me know how you know. Well, you said something earlier too, and I'm curious. So it sounds like you've had that experience where a friend or a family member or somebody has like verbally expressed they believe you are doing something that you shouldn't be doing. Like talk to me a little bit about what that looks like and how did they say that? How did that all come about?
- Speaker #0
Yeah. I mean, for me, it happened, you know, a lot of times people frame it, I think, in like, I could never. And so it's definitely not like a Heather, you're doing the wrong thing. It was, I could never put my six week old in the daycare. And it made, you know, it's so tough because.
- Speaker #1
And that's such a backhanded comment. I don't.
- Speaker #0
It's so horrible. Yeah. You're like, I couldn't, well, I can, I must be so heartless. The thing I used to say, Nicole, it was so funny. I used to be like, cool. So we don't actually have an option. Like, there's no way I can stay home. Like, so even. the assumption is I can't wait to leave my six week old with someone else. And then I'm a heartless mom that I'm like, my whole being would not like to be separated from my kid. If I had any other options, that'd be great. And I think there is sometimes like that that's missed in the conversation that there's options. Like we, when we had our first daughter, we were still getting out of student loan debt. My husband's salary couldn't support all of us. So like, you don't have a choice. So it also has this tinge to it of, I could never do that. It's like, well, what if you had to like what if you know and um oh my workplace's maternity policy is horrible it's like what if that's the only job I could get I don't know it's just like this assumption so many assumptions layered in there yeah and then I think later like that was when Holly was little in the neighborhood we used to live in there was a mom who was a teacher and you know I think she had that same mentality as I did growing up is like the greatest good is raising families and being there for them and I think that can look a lot of different ways so I think you know obviously I feel like other than the 40 hours that I'm physically at work, I'm a mom 100% of the time otherwise. Anyway, but a neighbor of mine, she was having her third kid and decided to stop working and just was like, I can't imagine doing anything else. It's more important. And I was like, okay. So it's much more about like, I don't think I've ever had somebody like say something like so direct and mean to me. But I think a lot of, especially like older women that we were in the in community with would be like There's a sense of like, are you able to stay home? Can you stay home? Are you able, like, that's the highest good. Are you going to sacrifice? Oh, you're not willing to sacrifice for that? Or is your husband not like, do you not get married to the right person? Is often I felt like the back stuff. And you can be confident in your decision, but you're like.
- Speaker #1
Well, it's still so, it's so hurtful. It's so insulting and hurtful. I feel like wherever you choose to land. because there could be the other side too, like from working moms or families that have that same or not same, but have different assumptions about those who are staying home. But yeah, I think either way, it's so, it's so hurtful. And I, I myself like can completely understand that because I also have three kids. I also am a working mom. And I remember the amount of times people would say, it's always those backhanded comments, which sometimes I feel like are worse because at least when somebody is blatant about it. I respond. I'm like, well, let me tell you why.
- Speaker #0
Let's have a real conversation. Yeah.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. And I don't have a problem with kind of like giving my rebuttal, so to speak. But when it's backhanded comments, I'm like, there's always this like, yeah, people please learn me, you mentioned earlier, of it's not quite aggressive enough for me to like hit back at them. So I don't know what to say.
- Speaker #0
Pre-judgment, like they're not open to really understand. It's like there's an opinion that they're not wanting to have that conversation with you. They're just like, if I was you, I wouldn't do that. It's like, well, great. Thanks so much.
- Speaker #1
Oh, it's so hard. And I think from both ends, because Ben and I have talked about potentially staying home. And I think the other piece for me, outside of just financial, like the financial burden, at least for us, is I don't know. And I talked to, I interviewed Devin also, your husband, Devin, and we were talking about this because he's a stay-at-home dad. I don't know how to say this. I'm trying to be careful with my words and I don't know why. It would be really hard for me to be a stay-at-home mom.
- Speaker #0
Yeah.
- Speaker #1
It is such an incredibly tough job. It is a job. And it is so hard. And both are so hard in different ways, right? And we chose to both continue working. outside of just the financial piece, because a lot of times my salary does just go to daycare, but there's something that I get, you know, in furthering my, in like staying connected to a career throughout my children's childhood. Like it does do something that for me personally, that not, not everybody would want or need that. But like, for me, it gives me something else. Right. And so, but I have had multiple people ask me like, And not even the assumption, just me, but like me or my husband, like, well, you guys have three in daycare there. What's the point? Yeah. Like from just a financial, not even like a gender or an assumption about staying home, but like financially, like, why are you guys doing this? And I'm like, because I actually like what I do and I love it and it fulfills me and I'm helping like people in the world. And yes, one of us could stay home, but that's just not where we're at. Like, but we have to reassess that every year.
- Speaker #0
Part of it is like, you're right, like daycare, people can demonize it, but it actually really helps like socialize kids and get them into like teaches them lessons really well, gets them into good structure. And like I've seen really big benefits. I mean, you know this, I think for a human that like works in or outside the home, paid work, it's like there's eight hours of your day, maybe you're working. And there are, I'm going to get math wrong while we're on here, all the other hours that you're not working every day. It's not like you're not with your kids. You're not teaching lessons. Like we talked about this was even with school. School is just a small part of the overall day. I mean, parenting is parenting, whether you're working outside of the home or not. But yeah, I'm with you on the stay at home piece is not that I like, I think it would be such a privilege to be home. But I think and I've heard struggles of my friends with just figuring out their identity. And then I don't think culturally beyond the U.S., there's actually a lot of cultures where like parents are with their child all day long. Like I think as people, the more I read and learn, like we're community based people. Like even if it wasn't mom and kid, it's aunt and kid or it's grandma and kid. Yes. We're sort of the first. we're almost doing this big social experiment. I actually don't think stay-at-home moms should have to bear that burden, but a lot of them suffer alone and do everything. And I just, even if it's just like a community of people, it just seems like the better. So, so I guess by working, you naturally have this extended community and daycare and this like.
- Speaker #1
That's such a great point.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. So I think, yeah, the community aspect to it all is, maybe we undervalue it. And I, I worry about that a lot.
- Speaker #1
I think you hit the nail on the head because I've struggled myself to articulate what it is because if is it that I wouldn't want to be with my kids all day? No, of course not. Of course, I would like love that as long as I got breaks. But I think that's the key is when you are a stay-at-home parent in America, unless you are very intentionally or you happen to be near close community or family, you don't get a break. You are isolated. You are lonely. And then you are plopped in the middle of the most difficult years ever, which is like kids and being on call 24-7 with their emotional outbursts and knees, keeping them alive, like, so, and doing the housework. So you're just in this, like, hamster wheel of trying to support and maintain without any support. Because then I think there's also this assumption that if you are a stay-at-home parent, you don't need to, like... oh my God, why would you need a babysitter to come over and relieve you? And it's like, what? The people that say that, you must not have had kids because- Yeah.
- Speaker #0
Just never had to do it solo for any length of time.
- Speaker #1
Right. Because those, I feel like, are the individuals that need a break the most and that need the support in the community the most. So I think you're right. I think my response or maybe my choice might look different depending on what support and community I have- Great point. In a phase of life. Yeah. Yes, I've never thought about it, but you articulated it super well. That daycare is like our extension of community. I love the teachers. I talk to the teachers every day. I love seeing like, I'm like, how are you guys doing? So yeah, I think that's such an important point.
- Speaker #0
You know, you're talking about that. So Devin, when we decided to have him stay home, this was a big decision. And we were in the same boat of like, this is like, I told him, I was like, I could see myself resenting you. I could see you resenting me. Like. I've got this other community at work. I can like step away from home life and like be just me at work. You don't get that. And so we talked about a, like, like we got to stay close and talk about this every week. Is it still working? Cause if it's not, you can go back to work. And maybe that's what will happen. Also like just any kind of resentment on either side, if it builds up, let's talk. And. Luckily, my husband is the biggest extrovert on the planet. He never meets a stranger. He's going to go to the library and the zoo, and he's going to make friends. So he never struggles with it. I would, but I'm not the same kind of gregarious personality. But it's interesting if you realize Devin and I negotiated that. We did not assume that. And so I think he loves being home. I check in with him all the time. But we've negotiated that. But I worry sometimes on the reverse. Had I stayed home, we would have never been like... it does this work or not. Like there's just an assumption that women know how to be a stay-at-home parent. So I love that we've negotiated, but almost in that case, they're going to talk about this a lot, but being a stay-at-home dad for him feels like a privilege because society is like so impressed with him and we've negotiated it. Whereas women just sort of, it's the default. And so I think anytime it's the default, it's harder. You've noticed it doesn't matter. Yeah.
- Speaker #1
It is funny because you're right. People are so impressed when they hear a stay-at-home dad. They're like, oh my gosh. Wow. And then, yeah, you're right. You just see, you see a woman and kids typically and you're like, yeah, okay. Do you, you probably, you probably stay home, right? I've heard people say that. Yeah. And it's funny. It's like... I know a lot of times people don't mean anything by it, but there's an assumption popping up again. And but for a man to hear that, everyone's like, wow, that's amazing. Like, congratulations.
- Speaker #0
I don't tell them in this lot. I don't want him to feel like this. I had a hard time for a while, like when I'd go to a conference and I'd meet somebody and they'd be like, great. Oh, what does your husband do? And for a while, I had a really tough time being like, he stays home because I thought there was going to be some pretty immediate judgment. Like, oh, he's not a man. Hmm. When we talk about the role of being a dad and like people see him out grocery shopping and have three kids in the car, they think it's so cute. But then when we start to talk about like our dynamic, I think people are like, is he emasculated or like, oh, that's all he does. You know, it's a it's so in the workplace sometimes I often lead with he has a great podcast. And I think people probably think it's like a big income generator. It's not.
- Speaker #1
Yeah.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. So it's,
- Speaker #1
well. What's interesting about that is, so it feels like, am I right in, in when I'm hearing you that you're almost more worried about the assumptions people are making now towards him versus towards you as being the working parent?
- Speaker #0
It's partly that, but it's also like, I feel like it comes back on me. Like it is my choice. Like there's, and I've seen this on like social media a bit of like, you know, you like marry well, like you want to marry somebody who can like support all your needs. And then. you know, for a man, a lot of pressure to be that. And it's like, if your wife has to, even if you don't have kids, like if your wife has to work, does that mean you're not providing for her? And this kind of like almost like a weird traditional culture, right? Like worry about them judging him for not being a great man. Like you don't know him. Like he works just as hard. He's just not like the traditional job type. Like, and he can go get a job if he wants to. Like, it's just, you know, it's like,
- Speaker #1
I hate that.
- Speaker #0
But then the secondary one is like, I wonder if they're like, poor you, you have to work because your husband's a deadbeat. Like, I think that's the worry. So it's about me, I think more than him. It is like when he introduces himself and says that, I think other guys are like, oh, I wish I could do that. But then also kind of, they don't really, I don't know. It's just, it's both things. It's both. There's like, I get high praise for him. And then I'm also really quick. I've noticed this. This is me judging myself. but I'll be quick to go. It's only for a season. Like our kids are only little, he'll go back to work. Like, don't worry. As if someone's worried. Yeah. Yeah. Like, oh, he's good. Josh can start pre-K this year. Like, who knows? Maybe Devin will get a part.
- Speaker #1
And I try to like make some,
- Speaker #0
and I'm, I I've got to stop doing it. It's been interesting. Like just hearing myself, especially since we moved. So we moved to Denver. So reintroducing myself been interesting. Cause I did, I was around people who had known me for 10, 15 years. You don't really have to introduce yourself. You have to be like, this is who I am. So I've noticed how I speak about things and kind of like anything, the energy that you speak about things with, like is how it's met. Like when we were talking about moving last year, if you remember, you were in our life the whole time where we'd be like, I think we are, we might not be, we think we might be. And people would start to be like, are you sure? Are you okay? And then when I started introducing it, like, Hey, we're moving in May. People are like, great. Good for you it's funny how much people respond so
- Speaker #1
To the confidence of just like, this is the way that it is.
- Speaker #0
He stays home. He's amazing. People are like, that's amazing. But if I say my husband stays home, but it's just temporary. And like, it's only because, you know, if I start justifying it, people are like, so I think all of it is more, way more about like how we, that we believe about ourselves and our own choices that reflect out. So I've tried that's, I think that's the biggest thing, like from a decade ago to now that I've learned, I used to think the world was kind of out to get me. And I think. now I realize a lot of it is just how I'm thinking about my own self, like how I'm talking to myself. And a lot of it is the world's not really caring. It's a lot about me.
- Speaker #1
So yeah,
- Speaker #0
like even, even more recently where I'm like starting to just talk more about my kids at school, at work and being like proud of them. And like, I had a week with them last weekend and I had a blast. Like they were awesome people. Like,
- Speaker #1
yeah, that's so great.
- Speaker #0
And they're really fun. And we had lots of laughs and Instead of it being like, I had to be by myself for a weekend. It's like, yeah. So anyways, yeah. Learning that a lot.
- Speaker #1
Have you noticed any difference? And then this might be my assumption, but like Tennessee response to your situation versus you're in Colorado now. And like, has there been a difference in people's reception to those things? Yeah.
- Speaker #0
Night and day. And obviously like we live like in probably more like it's not as, it's not as like. church culture out here right like and if it is it's a lot of displaced Midwesterners so you have like and they've kind of all moved out to Colorado because like the winters are a lot better here like they're just they're they're it's snowy but then sunny and hot again so again like it's you get a break but yeah when I was in in Nash again I guess you could find pockets of people wherever but I do think traditionally more in the south it is the expectation like we mentioned earlier of that patriarchal family. And if you veer from that. It's okay, but you're a little bit of an outsider. Every mom's group is going to be at 10 a.m. on a workday. No one's sitting down on the weekend because their husband's home. You know, it's like that. Here, it's been really refreshing because in the neighborhood that I'm in, it's a bus stop and it's mostly dads because the moms are already at work. A lot of them are teachers. A lot of them have had great careers. Now, if you talk to them, a lot of them, when their kids were younger, where they took some time off. They were able to do that, which is great, but they all have some level of career. So having Devin stay home is actually just luxurious. That's the response out here of like, wow, it must be awesome to be able to not have two people working. So I think there's that big difference. And I always describe it as like, it felt like we were swimming upstream a lot when we were in Tennessee. Like, no one was mad at us, but like, it always felt harder than it should be. Or like, would go to co-working spaces and it was always all men like men were working and worked with healthcare organizations and it was always like it was just all everything's all men so it's out here and feel like like so so out here in Colorado Lockheed Martin is one of the your employers and Lockheed Martin is engineers so like I'd say half of my friends are engineers you know so it's not even they're they're feeling they're already kind of minorities in this like male dominated field but like it's just so it's so different so yeah I've had a lot of fun being out here because I feel more normal.
- Speaker #1
Yeah.
- Speaker #0
That makes sense.
- Speaker #1
It does. It does. And it probably relieves you a little bit. Like it lets you just kind of go, okay, I can maybe let down some of my expectation or expectation of others' expectations and like just kind of get back to figuring out or maybe sort of figuring out just like just being without worrying about all the other stuff that's going to come from other people. If you're like me, and dinner time creates so much anxiety and stress, and you have very little time, especially if you have kids, from the time you get home until bedtime, let me suggest Hungry Root. Hungry Root has been a game changer for our family. Every week I go in and I pick out our meals for the following week. I get to select four servings, which is huge. A lot of delivery services don't allow for multiple servings like that, but it's enough to feed our family. They are really affordable, but significantly cheaper. than what you would get with some of the other subscriptions out there that tend to be very pricey and fancier, I would say, than Hungry Root. But it also offers a lot of healthy options. And so you can pick different dietary restrictions. Like I usually always select anti-inflammatory for the family, which is like a lot of fish, a lot of veggies, a lot of chicken. But you can also select vegan, vegetarian, high protein, gluten-free, all these different variations that you can choose from that's affordable, it's healthy. And almost every single meal is less than 30 minutes to make. And oftentimes if it's more than 30 minutes, it's just the bake time that takes a little bit longer. The prep time on almost all of these meals is very minimal that even somebody like me who has self-proclaimed that I do not like to cook because it creates anxiety and stress in me, I can even make these meals. It's been easy on my husband, who's the one that cooks because I prepare ahead of time like what the recipes are going to be. I pick them on Hungry Root and I choose things that are easy for his preference that I know him and the kids and myself are going to like. And it's made our dinnertime routine so much easier in a way that none of the other subscriptions have. And it's yet still affordable as if we were going to the grocery store and getting our groceries. So if you want to try it out, I highly recommend it regardless of if it's just you, just you and a partner or you and kids. It works for any size family, any size household. And if you're interested, you can click the link below and get $50 off your first box.
- Speaker #0
Even Nicole, this is such a silly thing. So this is the best example. of just systematically in Nashville, like you sign up for kids for school. Anyone has kids knows this. You put a primary contact and you put a secondary contact. And so we always put Devin as primary because he's the one that can answer his phone and is in town. Yeah. Yeah. In a Nashville school, like no one, no one ever used that. It was always the mom. And so I would get these, I'd be like in New York and I get a phone call and they'd be like,
- Speaker #1
even though you're on the secondary?
- Speaker #0
Because I think they just assume moms are going to be.
- Speaker #1
Interesting.
- Speaker #0
It's so rare. And so it's like, and so I get off the phone, I call Devin, I'd be like, Devin, I'm not in town. Can you go pick up? Anyways, we did that. And that's a big difference out here is we signed up in primary and I never get calls about school out here. They just called up. And so again, that's just a silly like,
- Speaker #1
well, it's silly, but like, that's a big thing. That's that speaks, I think, a lot to just the cultural expectation. in a certain area right like that's I think that right there explains exactly what most people's assumptions maybe that it's like bad necessarily it's just that's just what is in this like if you have it's it's very similar to the conversations we're having nationally about race and socioeconomic
- Speaker #0
status like we just live in a world where there's systematic expectations of people and gender and and race that like we live in and so a lot of them I don't think I don't really blame people like that's the world they live in and it's hard to fuck that trend and i'm not we're not even doing anything that progressive we're just swapping who works right like yeah yeah um so it is like a nice taste of being like not in the majority and not understood because in many ways we are like in the majority class and so like we know we have tons of privilege and we don't have to talk about these things a lot and this is just like one realm where we have to so we have to put that perspective on it all the time too, where it's like,
- Speaker #1
and what do you think? You've talked about it a little bit, but how has this experience from being just a working individual to now being, you know, a working mom of three and also with a stay at home? Well, I guess stay at home dad now, but like,
- Speaker #0
yeah, totally.
- Speaker #1
How has going through this experience in multiple phases, like how has that shaped you and changed you? What for the good or maybe I don't want to say for the bad, but. for the areas that it's really pushed you, I think, into yourself. Like, talk to me a little bit about that.
- Speaker #0
I think that started us like on this journey where, yeah, I don't, like we mentioned, we don't know if it's the right way or the wrong way, but we have to, as a couple, be like, this is our, like, we have to make the best decision for like the information we've got right now. And I think there's been times when I have felt really guilty for like choosing to be a working mom and working as intensely as I do because I am away. Like I just got back from my Five Nate. Five Nate. work trip. And it was brutal. Like five nights is a lot.
- Speaker #1
That's a lot.
- Speaker #0
And the kids are a little bit older. So they're adjusting. So there've been times when it's been really frustrating where I just wake up and I'm like, I wish I could just be the one that stays home. And I wish that like, we could just figure it out, you know? And so there's been a lot of that guilt, but I think also just like being grateful that like, I can have a salary that helps him, like that lets him stay home and my kids are able to be with their dad. So like, I think. We just kind of had to stand behind the fact of like, we made the best decisions for us. Like we both came from different socioeconomic backgrounds. We both have different levels of education. So like, I think that's been like the hard stuff. I think the good stuff is we've had to just say like, like, don't listen to the naysayers and actually just like do what we need to. And I'd say by and large, most of our friends are so supportive, family so supportive. It's not like a hard thing, but anytime you're different than the norm, like it's, it gets to be challenging, but yeah. I think there's that moment of whenever I go on a work trip, I can either choose to go and feel really guilty and be like, I'm a horrible mom. My kids are going to need to go through therapy because they don't have their mom here. Or like, you know, I can be so grateful that I've got a job that just allows everyone to be home and safe and secure, you know, and that I'm getting good experiences and the kids are seeing me love my job. So, yeah, just the yeah, it's the both thing all the time.
- Speaker #1
Uh huh. This is a big question. So you can feel free to be like, I don't know. But do you feel like fulfilled in your job? Is this your, is this where you, is it because, and this is something Bennett and I also talk about, is it the benefit of it? Like, you know, that maybe this isn't my dream. I'm not super fulfilled, but that's okay because it's providing X, Y, Z, or do you get some of both of that, right? Like, yes, it's providing this and it, but it's also fulfilling and I enjoy it and it brings me some life.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. This is such a good question. This is like the existential question of the.
- Speaker #1
Yeah.
- Speaker #0
I would say that there are like being good at your job, like knowing that you're an expert and knowing you're adding value. to a company, like regardless of what it is. And for me, I, I, I negotiate deals with Coke and Pepsi. So is it a job that I would dream of? Does it feel like super altruistic is not as a for-profit consulting firm we're negotiating, but there are, I'd say aspects of my day that feel incredibly fulfilling that I would miss a lot. So I have a team of three, so helping to manage them and coach them and see them kind of hit new milestones is really amazing. And then it is really meaningful personally to me to meet clients. build rapport with them and have like really good connections. So I think it's a tough question. There are days where I'm like, all of this is stupid. I'm going to throw my phone out the window. Like this is no, cause it's work. It's still like doing work, you're getting paid and you're fine. So like in my, my career, like I started out working in colleges and universities and working with college students. And that's still like where my heart is. Like, I think that's a really pivotal time of life and I love working with them. But like, as we've gotten older, like that the money is not there, right? Like, so it's been tough, like knowing that what I really want to do doesn't pay all the bills. And I think that disconnect is always hard. It's never for me about like, do I want to work or not, but I would love to be doing different types of work with different types of people. And I, I trust the long game. I'm going to probably still work for another 30 years. So like, hopefully like we'll be able to get to play so that it all can mesh. So yeah. challenging and that like what you're really good at and what you'll get paid to do is different than maybe what you love doing.
- Speaker #1
I think that's, and that's, I think the hard thing, regardless of if you're, you know, your gender or if you're a parent or not, I think we all search for this idea of purpose, like one survival, so money, but also purpose, right? Like the life giving energy that you get from something, whether that be, whether you are lucky enough for that to also be what brings you money. Right. Or. If we have to find other ways. And I think most people by default have to find other ways to get that. But it's always such a thing. I'm curious because I'm also on my own journey of like, well, how do you figure out what the life giving thing is? One, I think just how do you even figure it out? Because there's been so many things in my life where I think that's going to give me life. And then I'm like, oh no.
- Speaker #0
If you wait for it, it changes. Like I love gardening, but if someone paid me to do it,
- Speaker #1
I think I'd- So true.
- Speaker #0
Like I can't.
- Speaker #1
You'd lose your like, yeah, love for it.
- Speaker #0
Like there's, yeah. That plus, I think there's the question of like, does what needs to be fulfilling and purposeful, does that need to be the whole day every day? Is that even possible? Or is it finding like, like I mentioned, I really love when I can make these deep one-on-one connections. Well, I can do that in various parts of my day. It's not my whole job. And how can I limit that? I don't know. It's like, there's that. I don't know if that's ever. Like for me, that's how I kind of have to maybe justify it, but it helps me get through the day of like, Oh, I have one-on-ones all day with my team. This is going to be a good day. Cause I'm just here to coach and manage. Um, but I really hate like traveling sounds so cool. Like if you ever have moms on here too, we should talk about like traveling for work because it sounds so much better than it is.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. Yeah.
- Speaker #0
Like I was in Youngstown, no, I was in South Bend, Indiana, no shade to South Bend. The January of this year. So like, talk to me about what part of that trip was fun.
- Speaker #1
Well, honestly, I've only traveled. I'm trying to think now. I've had to turn down many conferences. And actually, I say had to. Could I have gone and could we have figured it out? Yes. But like the guilt, I think, and the shame of even asking my husband to do that because our kids were like, we have three and they are all two years apart. So we've had right now we have, you know, three under five or almost under six. And so it's like. It's getting easier the older they get, but to ask either parent, and it could be reverse. He could have asked me the same, like to watch two or three that young feels like, oh my God, that's hard. But I've had to turn down or I thought I had to turn down trips because we don't have family. We don't really have people here that would like come over and help either one of us if the other were gone. Yeah. And so I took my first work trip last year and I did it because it was in Ohio and we could drive up and Bennett could stay with his parents. And I felt okay. And it's nothing about him not being willing. It was more me not even, I wouldn't even bring it up to him. I would just tell my boss, no. I was like, I'm sorry, I can't. And luckily I'm in a place, I work at a nonprofit. I'm higher up in leadership and I've been there for so many years. They all know me and trust me. And my boss is amazing to where I have a different experience, I think, than you in that. But I'm always like, nope, can't. I block my calendar of the kids' things, and it's just on there.
- Speaker #0
This is a good challenge for me. It is. It is like, there's something to this. I've had to unpack a lot. So my dad, so just as a fun side note, cause I'm sure people process their own stories. So I'm the three girls, my two sisters are successful and they're married and great. But, but my dad made it very clear in our whole childhood that he always wanted a boy. And so he always teased, like I was his boy. So like he coached me in softball, he coached me in tennis. And he would do a lot of things and just kind of joke around about that. But he also like, like mentored me and coached me on finances and business. So like gender aside, I always felt really a lot closer to my dad than my mom, just because he was willing to kind of put that time in. But then, you know, you watch how he worked and that generation of working was, I mean, A, they did not have the inner, the idea was like, you put your head down and you do your job and you sacrifice and you don't bring anything personal. You don't show emotion. Like, and so a lot of the way that I started out my career was same way. Like. almost as if I don't have a personal life, like whatever the job requires, and then I will be rewarded for my loyalty and I'll be able to move up. And so whether you believe that or not, it was just ingrained in like who I am as a person and every job I've had, I've been able to move up, but it's like, and I like, I go to therapy very much proponent of mental health, but my therapist is often like, oftentimes women get into their thirties, especially after having children and what worked for them, like throughout their life, like just stopped working. It doesn't, cause I can't satisfy all the stakeholders in my life anymore by just saying this. And so like what you're saying is you put your stuff from your kids on your calendar, you do all this. I have put myself into this box where I'm like, because my husband stays home, all of those things are on his plate. And so I don't need to tell anybody that, you know, and like sometimes a school play or practice will be important enough for me. But if I look at my calendar from last week, I can tell you four things got scheduled on top of things from my kids that I just was like, well, that's why Devin's here. So, yeah, and I could absolutely be more assertive about different things. But yeah, it's weird to break kind of the cycle of what you know work to be and what you think it should be. But workplaces are incredibly flexible. My boss is very flexible. Anytime that I have chosen my kids over work, it's wildly supported. And that's like, I think society is softening up if we would just be assertive about what we need.
- Speaker #1
Well, and I think, you know, to your point, there's it feels like. If I were in your shoes, I think I would feel an immense amount of pressure. And it would, for me personally, be hard to not be resentful because I, it's hard for me to speak my knees and then I get resentful. Right. And so the one plus side of two working parents that feels like it's probably a lot harder for you, but not as much for us is my job. Well, I'll just be frank. Like my nonprofit leadership job would not support that like daycare. Right. So. Yep. I have chosen to stay and grow in this job, one, because it does good, but two, because I haven't necessarily needed the salary to be the thing that supports everyone. Luckily, we have Bennett's salary that does that. So I've chosen a job that is highly flexible, highly supportive of this mom life, working mom life. However, if Bennett's job were to go, I would be much more in your position of, I'm going to have to find a more corporate job. where the salary is higher and there's less of that flexibility. That's kind of, for me, been the way that we've been able to maintain the both is I just kind of know I've hit my salary top, right? Like I'm kind of there and that's okay because...
- Speaker #0
The location's the same. That's why, like, that's my job too, but it's like, you just have to constantly trade.
- Speaker #1
Constantly trade. That's such a good description of... It is. It's constantly trading and reassessing week by week, month by month. season by season.
- Speaker #0
You know what else I was thinking about this? I told them this. So again, keep on mentioning this women's conference. It's recent. And it was really eyeopening me. There's a women's like working mom session. And the, the people that are on these panels are incredibly inspiring, but they are like this, the CFO of like, of Denny's, you know, like the, this is like big companies and they are in the C-suite and all of them have working husbands as well. And so like their husbands are also pretty high up the chain. And so it's interesting because they have these panels. be relatable. But what happens is when you have two really high powered people, like the things that the lifestyle is so different. They're like, we have a nanny, we have a house.
- Speaker #1
It was just about to ask, like, yeah,
- Speaker #0
it's the whole, like, it's the community thing we're talking about again. So it's, they're able to like travel for work and be in this corporate setting. And they'll talk about like getting off early on Friday to go to something. But I'm also like, you've so many levels of support because the salary can like.
- Speaker #1
So yeah, exactly. Yeah.
- Speaker #0
You could go for a lower salary and you can be there for those things. And it's like, it's just an, yeah. What works in your own family system. And then I think we did have one lady on the panel who maybe was a single mom, but again, had family. Like, it's like, there's always other. Like there's, there's like all these different things you have to check. Cause similarly, we've never had family in town when we've had, we've had, we've had some family in town, not, not super supportive, helpful.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, no, I understand.
- Speaker #0
And then, uh, friends, friends are helpful too, but yeah, the community pieces, it's all back to that too.
- Speaker #1
I think, you know, which I'm trying to get out of the language of good and bad. Cause I, there, I really don't think there's much that's bad unless, you know, I think we all know what actual bad is, but. When it comes to parenting, I think there are so many, there's so much bothness in any choice you choose. And there are going to be pros and cons and barriers or strengths in each choice, whether it's choosing to work at home, like staying home and working that way, going to a job. Like there are just so many layers and things even in our conversation, like we're both working moms. And yet that shows up differently for both of us.
- Speaker #0
Very much, yeah.
- Speaker #1
but yeah I think it's and one thing I just want to state, cause I feel like we are both feeling it. And most people are is the constant reassessing of everything in life, especially when you also work.
- Speaker #0
Well, can I tell you how many times, okay, this is great. You mentioned this. I should, this is a good segue. So you'd mentioned like one thing I do feel regularly. And I'm sure many, many families where there's just one person bringing in like the breadwinner, whoever's like, who pays the mortgage, whatever. I do. There was a stress to me a little bit on like, I look up sometimes and I think if I was bad at my job, I got fired. Or if the economy got a turn, like everything on my shoulders. And part of me loves that. And I like feel pretty proud of that.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. I was going to say, there's I'm sure pride. There should be.
- Speaker #0
I feel great when I'm like, here's our Christmas bonus. And also like, I did.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. Yeah.
- Speaker #0
Of course. I always tease when Devin gets me a gift. Cause I'm always like, you're welcome. These beautiful flowers right here from Devin. And I was like, I paid for those. I'm totally kidding. Cause he saves us a ton too. But, but, but basically we do this thing from time to time where I will have like a really hard week and like, what would it take for me to get a new job? And I start to look at jobs that like are exciting to me in education. And then I sell Devin the celery and then he's like, well, how much would I have to make if that I was like, Oh, the same. Both kind of like, we'll make a budget and we're like, well, where could we cut? We do this regularly to your point, the full reassessment. And we're like, yeah, what if we just blew it up? And we just both got jobs that were really fun. And then you like are able to then reassess like, okay, but the way that we're currently set up is just me and we have all those things. Are we really wanting to go back? And I think at some point there'll be an inflection point, like if the job stays too stressful or if there's ever anything unethical or heck yeah, like maybe the economy. eliminates the job like we want to be yeah for it we're happy with the current situation but it is like yeah it feels like it feels like i don't know if maybe men go through this or not men seem very like stable like this is my job this is my role it's
- Speaker #1
just us over thinkers that are like but what if we like totally did something yeah just move to europe like oh god the amount of times we've talked about that or um canada i'm like uh let's just go I definitely think men do it because I know Bennett every day, almost not every day. That's an exaggeration. He's like, I don't like, he's definitely in that space of he's doing it for the family. Like it, it, it's not really fulfilling. Yeah. But the benefits right now are such that we just can't with three littles, little littles until, until the youngest is like in kindergarten, it's going to be really hard for us to figure out, you know, how to reassess. but He definitely is an overthinker too and wants to do good in the world, right? And I think that's what it gets back to for a lot of us that question work is like, are we putting some good into it? And I'm not saying you have to be out there working like nonprofit or like hands-on with actual people who need support, but there are ways you can do such good in any job you're in. And when it's hard to find that, I think it becomes incredibly hard to keep the like energy to maintain something.
- Speaker #0
There's this question for your own kids. Like this is the thing that haunts me, but like, so my dad did healthcare administration for all of his years. He just retired and like, I'm proud of him because he showed me what work ethic is and I don't want to speak for him, but the more I talk to him, the more I feel like, he's not sure if that was worth it. Like he helped hospital systems save money and operate. And it sounds maybe altruistic, but a lot of it is just internal politics. He made really good money to do it. But I don't get the sense that he's very. incredibly proud of his career the work he did and I'm like interesting 30 years from now yes to be like I'm about to retire yeah to your point is that is does the work have to be that where's the committees that I was a part of or is it the work in town there's all these questions about like who will I be for my kids at that point too will they be proud of me I don't know. It's funny. I hold that judgment for my own parents. I'm like,
- Speaker #1
yes. Well, and gosh, the, the constant reassessing of yourself, your partner, your kids, and also the constant questioning, at least like it's so exhausting to never know if you're doing it right to never know, or the most right you can in the moment. Right. I'm trying to change my own language around that, but no,
- Speaker #0
this has been a judge. Yeah.
- Speaker #1
Even, even in saying that, I'm like, yeah, I've done good in my job, but I have thought similarly of what about in 30, 40 years, am I going to regret not just spending those close moments with my kids? We were watching some movie the other day and the dad, it was like a single dad. It was some stupid movie. I don't remember what it was, but the one like really sweet moment from it, he was like, you spend 93. And I don't know how accurate this is. So somebody fact check me, but like you spend 93%. of the time you're going to spend with your children before they turn 18.
- Speaker #0
I have heard some stuff like that. Yeah,
- Speaker #1
yeah. And it was like a gut punch. I was like, shit. Ugh. No, now I'm questioning everything.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, we can have lots of fact checkers on this podcast. There's something about like your influence is like through age nine or 10, because they start, you know, being way more influenced. Here's friends. And even like as the kids have gotten older, we've been like. The overthinking never stops because you're like, now I know that you're influenced by your friend's parents. I need to meet those parents and make sure I like those parents before I let you be super close with them. No,
- Speaker #1
my friend, my best friend here, the other Heather. Yes. Yeah. She is like such an amazing human, but she was talking to somebody on the phone while we were out the other day. And like. coordinating a get together with the parents. And just like it was nothing rolled off the tongue. And she was like, Do you have any guns in your home? And I was like, Oh my god, I've never thought like that.
- Speaker #0
I haven't either.
- Speaker #1
That terrified me that I haven't thought to ask that because I'm like, Oh my god, one we're in Tennessee, but probably everybody has guns in their home. It's stuff like that. Right. And and one thing that you were saying earlier to of like maybe the downside that speaking of influence of having kids and daycare is one. The positive is they get to learn how to socialize, how to separate from a parent or caregiver. But we're in a situation now where I love the daycare. I love the teachers. And yet, if they don't share some of your values in how you speak to your children and how you help them emotionally regulate the bad habits that they can pick up, like that's the flip side of having the positive, right?
- Speaker #0
That is so true.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. Hearing a teacher say that you've heard say, shut up. And I'm like, I'm not trying to be picky about things, but can we not talk? Like, I'm like, can we, can you just say anything else? Right. Like we need to be quiet.
- Speaker #0
Appropriate. That's all. Yeah. Yeah.
- Speaker #1
Let's be age appropriate for a three-year-old, you know? So I think those, that, that flip side of like, I'm having to constantly reassess, like to your point of influence, the guilt that comes in for me of daycare is what are they learning? I know the good they're learning. I know all the positives. Yes. But what are the negatives about what they're learning when I'm not there? And I'm not saying I'd be perfect because Lord knows I, I am not, but at least then I know, I know what they're being exposed to that's negative versus right now. I'm like, I don't necessarily know.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, it is. And I think we've, we've talked about that a lot. And then even as they get older and we've just said like, there's absolutely like, as much as we want to control as parents, like what goes in. It's so like our kids ride the bus now, which is a whole nother like level of people feel feelings about it. We had sleepover birthday parties, which people have feelings about. But we really like we know we can we can try to shelter and protect. But like we need to just make sure that we're carving out the time to be able to talk about what happened today. And whenever we hear certain things. So out here, it's interesting. We have a number of people who are pretty progressive, whatever side of the spectrum you want to fall on. But also like let's unpack it. Like none of these kids have. real views on politics. So we were like, you're exposed to that. Let's go ahead and process it, which is really great. And I think that's like knowing that we're a safe spot. They're just going to keep getting exposed to stuff. So yeah, obviously want to limit as much as we can.
- Speaker #1
What would you say to people who are going through this tension of both? And like, how do you deal with the both?
- Speaker #0
What helps you? I think this is great. I think I'd say my number one way of processing is like Devin and Devin and And I've always been like. verbal processors and so what we do is we get the kids to bed at night and then like unpack the day like and from his perspective and mine and they're very different especially right now um we never skip over that like what i want to do is just go watch tv and like zone out um but i think just being honest with him about how i felt that day like any tensions that i had felt and vice versa like has been really good for us and we used to do it once a week that was kind of like when we first changed up roles and like, or doing would be like, how are you feeling about the week? And now we do it every day. And I think if we skip that, I feel pretty untethered because we can remind each other of our values. We can remind each other of our decisions.
- Speaker #1
And I think so good.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. That's like my number one staying power. And then I think beyond that, I think like I I'm working on this all the time. You can probably hear it like throughout the whole conversation, but this idea of like, now that I know my values, being just confident and proud of making decisions based on those values. And that's come through. doing therapy. I use BetterHelp if anyone's like looking for a way to get started with therapy that's cheaper. Like I'm not getting paid to say this. I wish I was. But it's been great. It's virtual. So like it fits into like a working schedule with kids. It's like an hour, lunch break, whatever. But that was what we worked on there was we just started out with like really thinking through your values, which it's hard to do. Like it takes a long time to think through what at the core is the most important to you because all values are really nice. But which ones matter to you the most and which ones will you defend? And then make those decisions. And then you're not learning. I can't please everybody, but I need to be more confident. So I think those two things have been like, you're never, I also don't think you'll ever solve it. Like we just mentioned that a couple of times, but you're not going to get to a place where you're like, I'm doing everything perfect.
- Speaker #1
Yeah.
- Speaker #0
Come on, talk to us about it. Cause I'd love to.
- Speaker #1
Please, please reach out right now. Cause like, let me know what to do.
- Speaker #0
People that are fact checking this. I'm just kidding. So yeah, that'd be my top two. Yeah.
- Speaker #1
I think that's so good. And I think the confidence piece, well, actually, I mean, all of that is such good advice because it can be so easy. And I know Bennett and I are working towards back towards this, but it was really easy with like three so young to forego that connection because you don't feel like you have the capacity to connect. And then if it's a hard conversation, you know, you just want to avoid it. And then But I think that's, you know, making a habit of, you know, weekly or daily, whatever it is, just not forgoing that connection and that tether. I really like that word, that tether. It's a very good reminder.
- Speaker #0
Every day and every moment, you, like you, Nicole, when you go through today, you're becoming a different person by the interactions you have. So we had a podcast. You may go to a birthday party. There'd be a whole day of things. And if your partner doesn't know those things, like it's not the end of the world, but like they all changed you in some small way. And the more you don't talk about how those things change you, like the worst. So we were told like, if you're going to get on a phone call, long distance dating, don't get on and be like, I miss you. I love you the whole time. Be like, okay, today I went to this class. I met this person. I was confused about this. I was struggling with this. I loved that, you know, just trying to walk through. And so it is, but I will say like, we also have days where I like, I'm like, I don't want to talk about work anymore. Like I've spent them 10 hours. I'm not giving them another hour tonight. And Devin is really patient with me and we'll be like, Hey, we'll talk about it tomorrow though.
- Speaker #1
I love that.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. Yeah. Just being like feeling the feelings. We were not encouraged. Parents' generation was like, stuff the feelings. I love that our generation is like, hey, acknowledge them. You can move past, but like, it's okay to be mad today. It's okay to be really like, Devin will have days with the kids where he'll be like, they were jerks today. I'd like to go on a walk. And I'm like, I'll see you later.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. I love that. We're going to have to start doing that because that's, I think that's really important.
- Speaker #0
It's fun. I mean,
- Speaker #1
it's fun.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. It's like exercise. Once you get past the first two minutes where you didn't want to do it, then you're like, oh, I know I love this.
- Speaker #1
Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Exactly. And then the last thing is I always ask my guests something ridiculous or relatable does not have to be connected to this topic at all, but something that you do that's a little ridiculous.
- Speaker #0
This is the best question. I've got two things for you. The first one is for some reason, I would love to know where this came from. I get so, so, so mad at people who don't have updated car tags. So like you're driving around and you have like the month and the year. I'm okay. It's the current month because I realized you have a grace period. I don't know why, like, I'm not the police. I am not going to kick ticket you, but I feel like you're not playing by the rules. You've got an updated tag. So,
- Speaker #1
so it bothers you. That's so funny.
- Speaker #0
So Devin always is like, what are you, why? I, he's like, I've never met anybody that has. the care and concern for tags like you do.
- Speaker #1
I haven't either, but it's fascinating and I love it.
- Speaker #0
Oh, that's, so that's like number one. The other one, like we, I would say that we spend, Devin and I spend probably an inordinate amount of time like dealing with health insurance. So kids just annual checkups, dentist, whatever.
- Speaker #1
Gosh, yeah.
- Speaker #0
So my previous job, I was head of HR. So like I used to have to negotiate all these plans for my group. And then Devin used to work dentist office. So we both have enough info to get dangerous about this. And then like every bill that comes in, like we scrutinize, like we look at and we know which people to call. We could probably talk. an unhealthy amount of time about like the health care and health insurance and then every year when like my health insurance plan i'm in a small company so we don't have an hr department anymore but anytime our plan gets renewed i'm looking at every line item and i'm like shocked with how much people don't know about it and it's
- Speaker #1
just a nerdy obsession so if you ever want to talk health insurance i will i was going to say uh expect a call because i'm like i would ever just pay it i don't want to think about i don't want to deal with it just get it done there's a stat like 80 of medical bills are wrong but
- Speaker #0
But yeah, just check. Check your bills, Nicole.
- Speaker #1
This one at least helps you like financially. And there's such like a misuse of it that I'm like, okay, 100%. Now I get it. That's super relatable. Yeah. I, it was so good to talk to you today and thank you for just being vulnerable, being open about, you know, all the things that come with being a woman, being a mom, being a working mom and trying to figure it all out.
- Speaker #0
Thanks, Nicole. I appreciate it. Yeah.
- Speaker #2
I just want to say thank you so much to Heather for being here today, being willing to. share her own story and experience with what it's like to be a mom who is working and who's constantly navigating that space between the pressure from work as well as the pressure from home and raising children. So thank you so much to Heather. And thank you to each of you who show up here every week and just take time out of your day to be here together with me and with others who are also learning how to hold multiple truths at one time. And if you haven't done so already, please follow on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts and take a moment to leave a quick rating and review of the show on Apple podcasts by clicking the link below in the show notes. Your support really makes all the difference. A simple follow a rating and review of the show is a huge boost for the podcast. And not only is it super impactful for the show, but it also really helps others who also might be struggling with some of these same things to find us. And I love hearing from each of you. So follow the show on Instagram at itsbothpodcast to join the conversation and get behind the scenes content. You can also send me an email directly at itsbothpodcast at gmail.com. Thank you again for listening. And remember, it's okay to feel all the things because so many times in life, it's not either or.
- Speaker #1
It's both.
