- Speaker #0
I wouldn't even attribute it to what people would probably assume, which is just like hearing the bad stories about what happened to the young people who came through our program. And don't get me wrong, I mean, horrible, horrific things, but you kind of just get used to hearing that. Where it really came out were the other effects. So obviously when a young person whose brain is not fully developed in any form or fashion has experienced these traumatic events it manifests a lot in their behaviors those behaviors whether physical or verbal whatever very much take a toll the secondhand trauma that just comes along with walking through that path with somebody and just being there's a listening ear not necessarily for their stories but just the rest of what they have to say because they are so much more than just that story. And, I mean, you're... genuinely getting the feeling of trauma that they experienced. Like they're just passing that on to you without realizing it. And you sit with that. And what do we do is we typically don't do anything but sit with it.
- Speaker #1
Welcome to It's Both, the podcast where we explore the messy, beautiful contradictions of being human. I'm your host, Nikki P, and each week I sit down with real people navigating life's complexities. Those moments when life isn't just one thing, it's so many. And this week I sit down with my friend Corey as he talks about the bothness around wanting to stay in a job and also knowing you have to leave. Corey spent so many years working in the nonprofit sector, especially with homeless youth and the LGBTQ plus community. Our conversation is all about the tension that so many of us know well. That passion for meaningful work. but also the burnout that can come with it. Corey shares what it's like to carry the weight of other people's trauma, how he navigated a toxic work environment, and what it took for him to finally advocate for his own well-being. We also talk about the power of finding a workplace that supports you and even how humor can play a role in surviving the hard stuff. So let's jump in. Well, welcome Corey.
- Speaker #0
Oh,
- Speaker #1
so good to have you here.
- Speaker #0
I'm very glad to be here.
- Speaker #1
So before we jump in, I would love it if you could just tell everybody a little bit about who you are. Who's Kory?
- Speaker #0
Oh, I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I don't even know where to start, though. I mean, I feel like I have so many different layers.
- Speaker #1
Okay. What's the first layer?
- Speaker #0
I mean, I guess we could talk about where we met, which is where you needed a data person. And I am a data person. I blessed your life immensely.
- Speaker #1
Absolutely.
- Speaker #0
Obviously still am, even though I'm no longer there. And yeah.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. So what's the next layer?
- Speaker #0
I don't know. I mean, I'm still in all the data stuff. I do enjoy it, though, which is great. I am an uncle, which I love being an uncle. I have a three and a half year old niece who's amazing. And I have a nephew on the way. He's going to be born close to my birthday, actually, in just a couple months.
- Speaker #1
Really?
- Speaker #0
That's fun. I'm very excited. I have a dog who I'm obsessed with. He's running around in the background right now. I think that's most of me, honestly. Why do we not like talking about ourselves, though? Suddenly, no.
- Speaker #1
I know. If you had to describe as if you were watching a show and you were a character in a show, how would you describe the Corey?
- Speaker #0
I don't know. I like to have fun. I like to joke about things. I can be a very serious person, but I also don't like when things get too serious. A topic idea for a podcast. This podcast. Not a different podcast. There you go.
- Speaker #1
That is a good one. Okay. Juxtaposition.
- Speaker #0
There you go.
- Speaker #1
I like it.
- Speaker #0
But yeah, so I would literally describe a character of myself as just the dumb idiot of the show who is saying ridiculous things even about myself is the thing. So maybe the comic relief of the show.
- Speaker #1
That's a better way because you're not like you are so smart.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, I'm not dumb at all. I'm not trying to self-deprecate. I'm not stupid. I'm smart.
- Speaker #1
That's a great second podcast idea that I've actually thought about is do you ever feel We're going to go off on a rabbit trail already. But like, do you ever feel very intelligent and very stupid at the same time?
- Speaker #0
Gosh, all the time.
- Speaker #1
Isn't that so hard to explain?
- Speaker #0
Yeah. I think I always default to just saying imposter syndrome, even if it might not be the best like description of it.
- Speaker #1
That's good.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. I was talking with somebody at work about that the other day. I was like, this job made me feel like I was dumb, even though I know I'm not.
- Speaker #1
Yes. Yeah, for sure. I mean, same, even outside of work. I'm like, sometimes I'm like, man, I I feel good. You know, I feel good about my intelligence. And then I say something or think something and I'm like, wow.
- Speaker #0
Yep.
- Speaker #1
Questioning that immediately. I will say also to your personality, though, like you love, we always talk about shows and movies.
- Speaker #0
So I feel like. I have a good pop culture moment.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. And books, right? You love to read.
- Speaker #0
So I love to read, but I haven't been reading a lot lately. But yes, I do love a good book.
- Speaker #1
Yeah.
- Speaker #0
And wine.
- Speaker #1
beer you know the stuff that's bad for me brew love a good cold obviously obviously shout out crema you want to sponsor an episode do you have sponsors yet how do we get them to sponsor crema come on i know there's there's a lot on my list i'm like i need to uh get them connected because they are amazing as long as you get free coffee out of it you don't even need to pay you anything no pay me in coffee that will save me money actually so talk to me about your both what is something, what is one of the things for you that creates this like bothness or this tension? And tell us a little bit about that.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. So I think, you know, a lot of it doesn't super center around myself right now, but more of like my past self and things that I went through at a time. And that is, I was feeling so passionate about work that I was doing with homeless young people in the mental health field. but also being so incredibly burnt out and maybe traumatized by the work that I knew I needed to leave, but I didn't want to leave. It was such a weird position to be in because of all of the lingering effects that just carried over into my personal life. And it was no longer just work at that point.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. So talk a bit about what made you want to stay so badly? What were the things in that space that made you want to be there? And how long were you there?
- Speaker #0
Yeah. So I was at this particular place for about eight years. It was the first place I ever worked out of college. It's where my career started. And so going through college, it did take me a while to figure out what I wanted to do with my life, as I feel like it does many people, if not everybody. Yeah. And when I finally landed on majoring in psychology, then I was like, what do I do with this degree? And I was like, you know what? I think I want to be a therapist.
- Speaker #1
I didn't know this, Corey.
- Speaker #0
Oh my God. I thought I'd actually told you this.
- Speaker #1
No.
- Speaker #0
Oh my gosh, Nicole.
- Speaker #1
Okay. Sorry. We'll get, we'll get to that in a minute. Keep going. Keep going.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. So many years ago when I was still actually in high school, funny story. I would always have movie nights at my house with some of my friends. And some of them were dating each other, blah, blah, blah. You know, there was always some tension. We're high schoolers, you know, drama. Somehow I always ended up being a therapist to everybody in high school. Like, quite literally, like, sit down therapy session. Like, let's talk about it. So I don't know why, even after all that, it took me so long to decide I wanted to be a therapist. Spoiler alert, not a therapist. but so yeah I was going through all that um in college and that's where I landed and obviously knew I needed a job afterward um I was working in accounting while I was in college hated it and knew I had to get out yeah I can't see you as an accountant sorry I it was awful I mean nothing about it I enjoyed I always swore I would never work with numbers after that and now you're in data yeah but there's not Look, all the math involved, though, it's done for me because of Excel. True,
- Speaker #1
true.
- Speaker #0
I'm not doing the math. So I was looking for a job. At some point, I had stumbled across something related to the agency I worked for. And then I was like, you know what? I'm going to go volunteer at this place, specifically around for this group that worked with LGBTQ plus high schoolers. And I was like, this is amazing. Like, they do all this stuff that I think I want to work with. And then they posted a PRN position. So I was like, why don't I just apply for this job instead of volunteering so I can get paid to do something like this?
- Speaker #1
Yeah.
- Speaker #0
And I got the job and that was the start. It was my junior year of college.
- Speaker #1
Wow. Yeah. I didn't realize that you started there in college, that that was like your first career.
- Speaker #0
I was PRN for about six months. And then my senior year of college, I started full time. So I started as just like entry level there, worked up to being program manager before I left. I loved, loved, loved a lot of the people I worked with. I loved the young people that we worked with. They were all amazing. you know, obviously ups and downs, but still all amazing.
- Speaker #1
Talk about for those who aren't as familiar, and you don't have to get into like super detail, just briefly, what does that look like? Like working with youth that are homeless and LGBTQ plus population, like how do all those things kind of intersect? How did that look for you in that job?
- Speaker #0
Yeah. So the agency I worked for, like had a big focus around just working in general with LGBTQ plus you. So it was kind of embedded in all of their programs for that aspect. But for the program I worked for, it was a residential counseling program. So we had young people actually living there for a few weeks at a time. So we operated 24-7. We always had staff there. So it was very stressful at times, especially when I was PRN. Stuff happened at the last minute regarding shifts and working. So that was crazy. And then you feel like you can never have a day off, even when you get... salaried and half time off just because of so many different things going on.
- Speaker #1
Did you feel almost, I could see this being a double-edged sword, right? Like you love working with young people and you feel connected to them and you want to help and support them. And also because you feel all those things, did you also feel like you were responsible for them? And like, if you took a day off, you were, I don't know, letting them down or?
- Speaker #0
Yeah, it always felt really... So I've always said since leaving, like, I'm not a person who wants my own children. It's not in the cards for me. But I have had over 800 children in my life. And those are the kids that I worked with for those eight years. Because I, you know, I've described it before as I was there for the tough moments, the good moments, the, you know, having to redirect them and let natural consequences as part of life. I made meals for them. It's essentially like a parent. figure almost. So it felt, yes, like I was letting them down when I wasn't there. And it also felt weird giving that off to somebody else. Like, oh, these are my kids and now you have to take care of them for me because I don't want to be there right now.
- Speaker #1
I mean, I can completely relate.
- Speaker #0
I was going to say, I'm sure as someone who has kids. Yeah.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. And that's interesting because it's so maybe it's not so much like you're letting them down, but it really is more, Or is it more that... okay what does it say about me because this is how I feel as a parent that I want space from you like sometimes that feels wrong even though I'm like I need it like I love you so much and also I need to be away from you yeah it's yeah
- Speaker #0
a weird juxtaposition to like live in I guess because then you kind of like question yourself you're like wait why do I feel this way these are actually my kids and you're like no no that like I am gonna fight for that kid yeah
- Speaker #1
Wow. And 800. So.
- Speaker #0
And that was on the low side because of COVID because we had to close for so long.
- Speaker #1
So would you say at any given time, how many youth were you working with?
- Speaker #0
On average, about eight to nine. We had the capacity for 12. They stayed for two weeks at a time. Yeah. And even like those weird feelings of like giving things up where they are, like as I got promoted and wasn't in that space as much. So then it's like a weird, like you kind of have that same attachment because you're there part of the time, but then you have to step into a different role the other part of the time. Yeah. And I don't even know if I'd ever thought about it that way until now, which is kind of funny.
- Speaker #1
Well, it's interesting too. So I wonder in those moments, so you're moving through, you know, doing this with the youth and then moving into supervisory roles. How did you notice that you as a manager or supervisor, you know, leader? How are you giving the advice to others to deal with that? Because I imagine they were struggling with that same thing.
- Speaker #0
I think the unfortunate reality, which is also telling on myself, is that it was very much kind of an unspoken. And I don't think I ever really mastered being able to walk through those scenarios with people I supervise.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. But I think that's normal though, right? Because you were still in it.
- Speaker #0
Right, exactly.
- Speaker #1
And I think it wasn't like you were removed from it, right? And like had time to process and then come back and verbalize it like you were still in it.
- Speaker #0
That is, you know, that was a big factor in kind of this is it's both feeling of knowing I need to leave and not wanting to. And the I was still in both of those roles. And um It takes a very big toll when you can't have that separation, when you know you need to, especially as a leader. And then also just kind of the constant back and forth that comes with like switching schedules every day. Like every single day was different. I never had set hours. Some days I was working until midnight and then going back in at 8. It was weird things like that.
- Speaker #1
And is that mostly just because the turnover and the instability because it's such a hard field and people would call out so then you had to step in?
- Speaker #0
This was a budgetary reason. Um, because they did not want to pay to fully replace me on the residential side. So they, I got, I was in both management and residential side for less money.
- Speaker #1
That is like, okay. I feel like for people listening who aren't in the nonprofit space, that is one of my biggest pet peeves in nonprofit world. And some nonprofits, some nonprofits are a lot worse than others, but there is this like expectation. that you can do two, three, you know, however many jobs at once, just because you might not have enough tasks to quote, fill 40 hours, which is not true, but on paper what they say.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, that was, I don't want to say a fight because it wasn't a fight, but it was a fight that I regularly had with leadership at this agency because I was advocating for myself. as best as I could and it was kind of never taken serious um so like I'm telling people like I'm not sleeping I slept for two hours last night and now you want me to come in here with 12 you and be in a residential space um and that doesn't even get into the own trauma that the residents are bringing into the space that we're overhearing and dealing with secondhand drama with. So yeah, it had a very big impact on my life outside of work. I became very, very depressed, which was something that I hadn't experienced since I was a lot younger. And I mean, it led to me having to see a psychiatrist and get back on antidepressants and ultimately leave the organization, even though I really didn't want to leave the work at the time.
- Speaker #1
So if, I mean, and I think you just described, right, all the reasons why you wanted to leave, you know, talk about why you want to stay, why you wanted to leave. If those things had been adjusted, if you had been given some consistency, if the budget constraints weren't as they were, would you have wanted to stay? Would you have stayed?
- Speaker #0
I would have stayed, but I also know then, a little bit then, and mostly now, I know that that would have been so bad for me to stay. I think, especially towards the end, I was mostly there for just the people I was working with. And then I left and actually found other good people.
- Speaker #1
Who are those people? I'm just kidding.
- Speaker #0
I mean, you wouldn't know them, just some weird randos. No, but I truly, genuinely feel very lucky for where I landed after that. Obviously, not just here, too. you hire me or anything.
- Speaker #1
Yeah.
- Speaker #0
But genuinely, like you are one of those people, you and Rod both who are genuinely good leaders and know how to lead with empathy and lean into people's strengths, which is exactly what I needed at the time, which obviously you didn't know. And I didn't know what I needed. But by God, it sure was.
- Speaker #1
Well, and I think we were so lucky to have you for so many reasons. And, you know, I'm wondering too. Because you were talking about this earlier, and I know what you mean, but for people who might not, like talk a little bit about when you say secondary trauma, or you might have said vicarious trauma, I'm not sure, but can you talk about what that looked like for you? Like what does that actually mean and how did that show up for you? Because I think that is one of the things that honestly people that aren't in this field have no clue how to understand oftentimes, or even people in the field. that are a little bit removed from it or desensitized to it, still don't realize like how big those effects are.
- Speaker #0
Right. And one thing I also think is kind of funny, I wouldn't even attribute it to what people would probably assume, which is just like hearing the bad stories about what happened to the young people who came through our program. And don't get me wrong. I mean, horrible, horrific things. But you kind of just get used to hearing that. Where it really came out were the other effects. So obviously when a young person whose brain is not fully developed in any form or fashion has experienced these traumatic events, it manifests a lot in their behaviors, less so in just telling their story to somebody. Those behaviors, whether physical or verbal, whatever, very much take a toll. The secondhand trauma that just comes along with walking through that path with somebody and just being there is a... a listening ear not necessarily for their stories but just the rest of what they have to say because they are so much more than just that story and I don't even know like the best way to describe it I mean you're genuinely getting the feeling of trauma that they experienced like they're just passing that on to you without realizing it and then you sit with that and what do we do is We typically don't do anything but sit with it because I feel like a lot of places don't focus enough on the effects that that can have on, you know, their staff who are in these positions working with people who have experienced trauma. One story that I like, not like to tell, but that I do tell in regard to that sometimes is I think maybe right before the pandemic started or like right towards the beginning. you know, I used to smoke cigarettes, but I was reading this book, I think it was called like, How to Care for Yourself While Caring for Others. And they literally use the example of dealing with the secondhand trauma that comes from working in a helping profession, and smoking cigarettes as a coping mechanism to that. And the way they described it in this book was exactly what I was doing every day. They were like, if you are looking forward to that cigarette, and getting in your car and smoking it right after work and smoking it on your way home. And then it just built onto that. And I was like, oh my God, I look forward to that every night when I leave work. And then I have my cigarette on the way home. I was like, oh shit. I think this book just got me. And that day I never smoked another cigarette.
- Speaker #1
Are you serious?
- Speaker #0
Swear to God.
- Speaker #1
That's very impressive.
- Speaker #0
I had smoked for about five or six years.
- Speaker #1
Whoa.
- Speaker #0
Wow. I take that back. There was one night I got super drunk with a friend. But that happens to the best of us.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. That's a really, I think, unique situation to have read that book and then that'd be the exact situation you're dealing with. And then you had the, I don't know, determination to just say, no, I'm not going to do it. I think that's amazing. But I was also thinking about when you talk about dealing with trauma, but it's not hearing the stories. And I'm so glad you said that because oftentimes I even forget to describe it like that. But I'm thinking back to when I was doing, so before, similarly, not the same exact story, but I also have prior to being in this role for the last eight years, I'm a licensed therapist. I was doing therapy for eight years before that. But the last couple of years of that, when I moved to Tennessee, my therapy license didn't transfer. So I had to go back and get some hours. And so the only place I could really get hired was a nonprofit here that did crisis counseling for kids and youth. And similarly, there was no prioritization of the staff's needs and their self-care. And so I was doing crisis calls with anybody 18 and younger who was suicidal, homicidal, having psychosis. And I think in a very similar way, you get used to the trauma, the feeling, the heart, the big feelings. But what was more difficult day in and day out was usually the behavior of somebody who was super combative, just verbally. I don't mean physically, just verbally coming at you. And I know in my head, I'm like, this is trauma. This is like a trauma response. They are getting defensive. They are blah, blah, blah. Like I know these things and yet my body is like in that tense defensive, I need to like protect myself mode while also trying to help this person, this child, you know, deescalate. But then you're almost in like, I know people, some people who are just listening can't see, but like your, you know, your shoulders are raised, you're tense. You're like dealing with whatever the behavior is that is caused by trauma and you never like let go. your body never lets go.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. I was just thinking while you were saying that, like, I truly, I think it's like the unpredictability of that because you know, you're going to go into work and hear an awful story. Like that's a given. You don't know what behavior you're going to get as a result from that horrible story.
- Speaker #1
Yes. And then because of that, you can't ever, like I even described it to my therapist before. I was like, I can't ever go, like, I can't like take that deep breath because you're just, everything is holding it in to protect, not only protect yourself, but protect them, like protect everyone. Right. Like, and yeah. It's a really, really, really hard thing to deal with. And I think why, I mean, I know why, right? Research has shown like why people don't stay in these fields for very long. And then the ones that do, maybe you have this like unicorn that can stay for a long time and still be empathetic and understanding and protect themselves and care for themselves. But often like the people that stay become so hard and cold and like, and I get, you know, it's like, I get it. but also That's not a way to live.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, I myself did not personally experience, obviously, that end of it, but did have somebody I worked with, a leader at that same agency who had been in that crisis program for, honestly, about as long as I had been alive at that point. Wow. Like, she literally started a month before I was born. Whoa. And started as just a therapist and was a VP. and did not take care of herself. And as the youth would say today, had a little bit of a crash, which also, you know, then played into my own burnout because I didn't have anybody there for sport.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, and then you have, I mean, leadership. It's so hard at any organization if leadership is not on board and proactive about, like, really intentionally setting things up in a way that keeps people safe and protected. all of that like it's not going to happen it's just not the system is not set up for that there is just and from my experience nothing you can say to help leaders understand the
- Speaker #0
way you see things and experience things in positions like that because you just can't understand it without being in that position you know they're never going to go down into that position Yep. I think it just takes really being into it to have the best understanding, whether you're actively in it or not, like it was your past experience, whatever that may be. Yeah, I mean, I have countless horrific stories from that job that had no support afterward, and they just couldn't understand. They were like, oh, well, that's what you signed up for. I have countless horrific, unfortunately, experiences that I never got. you know, support from, from higher up leadership who should have, and it was more of a, you know, well, this is what you signed up for kind of response when things would happen.
- Speaker #1
Which I just, I have such a hard time with like understanding that perspective because I mean, I'm like, you know, to get to a leadership role, you had to do the job usually. And it's like, how quickly do you forget what you experienced? Or you are so callous towards it that you're like, if you had to deal with it in a really hard way, everyone else should. I don't know.
- Speaker #0
The latter. I definitely had heard similar things to that before. Yeah. That's how it's always been.
- Speaker #1
It's interesting. I feel like there's a lot of things in life that I've seen that, whether it be like, I'll just use my example with my kids, like older parents. Not even like my parents or my in-laws, but like other sets of individuals who have had kids and who are older. Like when you start to say how you're going to take care of yourself as a parent, well, they're like, well, we didn't have that when I was growing up. And I'm like, that sucks. I'm so sorry. Like we do.
- Speaker #0
It's like and that's actually the problem with you, by the way. In case you didn't know.
- Speaker #1
But yeah, like at work, too. And it just at organizations, it's so especially in I feel like helping professions in social work, in therapy, whatever it is. I think there is just this like. you also have this layer, which we haven't even talked about yet, where I can't imagine how much you're getting paid during this whole time. Like maybe you surprised me and you're getting paid a decent amount. You don't have to say numbers, but like, I can't imagine knowing the nonprofit world that anyone is often getting paid what they should to be doing such, especially those jobs. When I think of like my crisis counseling or you working with like homeless youth, I'm like, these people should be paid. double what they are paid. Because I will just speak for myself, when I started that job, I had a private practice, let me just for context, in Texas. Now I was still an intern-ish. You're like an intern for many years after you get your licensure. But I was an intern, but I was making like $125 an hour. That was my hourly rate. And
- Speaker #0
I have a lot of student loans I had to pay off.
- Speaker #1
I'll do, yeah.
- Speaker #0
But then I came here, my license didn't transfer, I got this crisis job. The salary was $40,000.
- Speaker #1
I can't wait to get into my zone.
- Speaker #0
$40,000 for literally answering, I kid you not, 100 calls a day was the average. 80% of which were suicidal kids. homicidal kids or those that were psychotic. And I got paid $40,000 a year, did not get bathroom breaks. We had to take our headsets into the bathroom because who's going to cover your crisis call? Nobody. You had three people covering the entire state of Tennessee. So you had to go to the bathroom with a headset, pause, pause, you know, midstream, answer the call, get their information and call back. And then lunch break was. 30 minutes, but if you got a call right before your lunch break, what are you going to do? You have to take your call. And a crisis call is not going to be done in five minutes. If you're like me and dinnertime creates so much anxiety and stress, and you have very little time, especially if you have kids from the time you get home until bedtime, let me suggest Hungry Root. Hungry Root has been a game changer for our family. Every week I go in and I pick out our meals for the following week, I get to select. four servings, which is huge. A lot of delivery services don't allow for multiple servings like that, but it's enough to feed our family. They are really affordable, but significantly cheaper than what you would get with some of the other subscriptions out there that tend to be very pricey and fancier, I would say, than Hungry Root. But it also offers a lot of healthy options. And so you can pick different dietary restrictions. Like I usually always select anti-inflammatory for the family, which is like a lot of. of fish, a lot of veggies, a lot of chicken, but you can also select vegan, vegetarian, high protein, gluten-free, all these different variations that you can choose from. That's affordable, it's healthy, and almost every single meal is less than 30 minutes to make. And oftentimes, if it's more than 30 minutes, it's just the bake time that takes a little bit longer. The prep time on almost all of these meals is very minimal that even somebody like me, who has self-prevention. claimed that I do not like to cook because it creates anxiety and stress in me. I can even make these meals. It's been easy on my husband, who's the one that cooks because I prepare ahead of time, like what the recipes are going to be. I pick them on hungry route and I choose things that are easy for his preference that I know him and the kids and myself are going to like. And it's made our dinnertime routine so much easier in a way that none of the other subscriptions have, and it's yet still affordable as if we were going to the grocery store and getting our groceries so if you want to try it out i highly recommend it regardless of if it's just you just you and a partner or you and kids it works for any size family any size household and if you're interested you can click the link below and get fifty dollars off your first box both
- Speaker #1
a very funny story for you um regarding answering a crisis line just to give us a little comedic relief. And then also... I would love for you to guess how much money I made when I started full-time my senior year in college.
- Speaker #0
Okay, what year was this? Hang on.
- Speaker #1
2015.
- Speaker #0
It's going to be bad. $30,000?
- Speaker #1
Salaried. Oh, salary.
- Speaker #0
$30,000 less? Stop it, Corey. 26. 26 years. Full-time. No. Working with homeless youth.
- Speaker #1
Some more time.
- Speaker #0
Of course.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. So I moved up three levels in their hierarchy. Would you love to guess how much I made, Viola?
- Speaker #0
Okay. Because that was when we hired you. So that would have been, what year was that? 2021?
- Speaker #1
22.
- Speaker #0
22?
- Speaker #1
I mean,
- Speaker #0
45? 47. Okay. That's awful. For moving three tiers?
- Speaker #1
Running the program. Yeah. It was insane.
- Speaker #0
This is, and honestly, like, I am glad you shared because I don't think people understand.
- Speaker #1
No, people absolutely do not. Like,
- Speaker #0
that is, and for those of you listening, whether you're in Nashville or not, that is under the livable wage for this area.
- Speaker #1
That's under the livable wage for most of the country, I think, at this point.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. Gosh.
- Speaker #1
Okay, so now the comedic relief of it all. Huh? Yeah. So. This agency also had a 24-hour crisis line, which we always had to answer. All kinds of different callers. The works. So we always had at least two staff there. One night, the person I was working with had taken the residents out on an outing. And I was there by myself, which typically great time. Kids are gone, get to hang out. You just have to answer the phone if somebody calls. Well, I needed to step out to use the restroom very, very badly. So I text the person I was working with because we were just texting in general. And I was like, oh, my God, I just had to ask the friend us to put the phones like on night mode, which means they don't come back to us so that I could go poop.
- Speaker #0
Yeah.
- Speaker #1
Turns out it wasn't just the person I was working with. I sent it in a group chat to the entire team, including our director in the AP.
- Speaker #0
No, Corey!
- Speaker #1
The first response that came through was my direct supervisor, who he said, I'm assuming you didn't mean to send that in a group chat. And I was like... What are you talking about? God,
- Speaker #0
that is like, if you didn't have to poop already, you were definitely going to have to shit after that.
- Speaker #1
Oh my God.
- Speaker #0
And how did you probably worded it in like, I just can't imagine what I would be saying if I was texting a friend versus what I would say. Oh no. God. Did everybody handle it well? Like in stride? Did they joke around about it or was it, was it bad?
- Speaker #1
Um. It was definitely, we joked around about it for sure. The director definitely brought it up on my goodbye party when I did leave.
- Speaker #0
Okay, that's a good callback. I like that.
- Speaker #1
Because she did remember. Because I was so relatively new when this happened. I think I'd been full-time for maybe like six to nine months at most. Which means I had barely been there in general for like a little over a year. So we hadn't had many interactions at that point.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. Yeah. Wow. I don't know. Yeah, I was gonna say, I don't know that I've, I know I've done some really embarrassing things. I don't think I've done something that, that drastically, like that clearly embarrassing, but that's, that's a good one.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, it was, it was rough. You're welcome for the comedic relief.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. Oh man, that's so good. So would you say when you were in the midst of all of that? Did you know or did you realize that you were in the both, right? Like, or the tension of all of that? Or was that something that you realized later after processing a lot of what you were going through?
- Speaker #1
A little bit of both, ironically. I definitely started realizing that towards the very end of my time there. And then just kind of through processing and reflection and after I was gone, you know, was able to pinpoint like, oh, this was the beginning of.
- Speaker #0
kind of the end essentially which was like a 40-year process in itself but really or i guess about three so talk to me a little bit about that what why was how was that such a long process and why like what was kind of all wrapped up in in that so
- Speaker #1
there were a couple of situations back to back in about a six-month span with residents specifically suicide attempts so three back to back in six months after a lot of reflection. and realizing kind of the lack of support that was there from the people it was needed from, that's what I would refer to as the beginning of the end. So that was like summer 2019 when that kind of first started. And then I left at the end of 2022. So it was, you know, a little over three years. Right around the end of 2021 is really when it started to hit like, okay, like I had to leave, like as much as I don't want to. like I And I need to get out of here. And that's when I started like applying for jobs.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. That's what I was going to ask was like, when you started that three-year process, were you just kind of like, yeah, I'm just going to kind of like apply here and there and see what happens? Or were you just kind of, it was just in your brain, you were thinking about it, and you didn't kind of get to that point for another year?
- Speaker #1
Yeah, it was definitely probably a year of like, oof, things are kind of getting rough. Like, maybe I should consider doing something else. And then right around the pandemic, it was just like fully. and then that was you know a whole beast within itself because it was like I can't abandon everything in the middle of a pandemic but it very much fast-forwarded my feelings of maybe I should start like looking and exploring so yeah 2020 towards the end was when I started looking I started applying for a few here and there in 2021 and then 2022 I was like full steam ahead like telling HR at this agency, like, if I get an offer tomorrow, I'm leaving.
- Speaker #0
Really?
- Speaker #1
They knew how unhappy I was. I was vocal about it when I was having those moments of advocating for myself for like a different schedule. They kept telling me no, obviously. And so my supervisor at the time, who was actually very supportive, and to this day is one of my best friends in the world, was also advocating for me and would tell them like, no, he's gonna end up leaving, right? Like planting that seed. And then eventually they started asking me straight up like, If we do this, are you going to leave? And the last time I was asked that was probably about three months before I did leave. I had had multiple interviews up to that point with different organizations trying to leave. And I didn't even let her finish the sentence. I mean, I knew what she was asking me as she was telling me that my request was being denied again. And I said, no, I won't be staying. And then I put in my notice in November of 2022.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. Okay. It's just so hard for me to understand why organizations can't or won't take care of staff like that. I mean, it's just, especially like you're advocating for yourself. A lot of people can't or don't.
- Speaker #1
It was such a weird feeling of being told how valued I am and how much my work is appreciated right before being told, but also. we're not going to put you on the schedule you want.
- Speaker #0
Even though you've been here eight years.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. Also, you're still going to wear both of these hats and have one foot in each of these things.
- Speaker #0
So through that experience, do you think it helped or hurt your growth? I guess I would say. I don't know if that question makes sense.
- Speaker #1
To again, say both?
- Speaker #0
It's not actually.
- Speaker #1
Because really, like, I mean, I... It probably did not help in some ways, but it definitely helped in other ways. I very much credit my experiences there and with poor leadership to shaping how I am as a leader today. You know, my favorite party trick, especially when I was interviewing with you, was to tell people that I had 28 direct reports.
- Speaker #0
I remember,
- Speaker #1
yeah. Like... I don't even know how I'll describe it. Like it honed so many skills because of not wanting to be like the people who I was under essentially. So I do think it helped, unfortunately.
- Speaker #0
No. And I mean, that makes a lot of sense because I think similarly, I probably have talked about this way too much at work, but one of the reasons I was so passionate about trying to create an environment on our team and like the big network of... what I was doing was because I was like, I want to help the helpers because I've been the helper and nobody helps the helper. Like nobody takes care of those people who are on the front lines every day dealing with the trauma, dealing with the hard things. Like those should be the people that get the really fun conferences and days off and like really high salaries and those should be the people we're celebrating. And yet they're not, they're paid the least. There's the least flexibility. There's the least time off. There's the least time to process. There's like all of these things. And a lot of that is because similarly, I was in an environment and I was only in my job two and a half years before I came here because I was, you know, again, a hundred calls a day, kids wanting to kill themselves or somebody thinking that somebody wanted to kill themselves and having to navigate that. I mean, and I was working into nine hours a day. Sometimes overnight, you'd have to work holidays. I mean, all these things. I would be going to bed at night just crying. I mean, just because I and there was no verbal processing of it. I actually I don't think I had a therapist at the time, which was really bad. But, you know.
- Speaker #1
That's what they don't tell you. Like, you need a therapist when you work in these jobs.
- Speaker #0
Oh, my God. Just to like a weekly therapist to process the trauma that was then dumped on you. And I didn't have one at the time. Like, I do now, but I didn't then. And. I didn't know how to deal with it. I didn't know how to process it. I would just cry at night. I would just cry and then go to sleep.
- Speaker #1
I used to wake up every day so anxious, like from just a lack of sleep and also not knowing what was coming my way. Like heart racing, terrified to go in and see what is waiting for me.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, it's hard. And it's, I think similarly, I wasn't asking you that, so you'd say both, but. I do think, I was going to say, the more you start thinking about there not being a this or a that. It is hard. Almost every question now, I'm like, well, both. I mean, truly, both. But I think for those who haven't been through it, I think it's important to talk about this as much as possible because I know that people don't get it. I know people don't understand. And there are so many layers to your story and why this is just one example, but I know so many other people are in a similar space to you where maybe they're not even at an organization where they're doing. social work or in a helping profession, yet some similar things that they're experiencing where you're like, I want to stay. And also I can't stay. I do want to stay and I don't. Like it's both. It really is.
- Speaker #1
Genuinely not to like suck up to the host or anything, but like that's, if this, I truly, that's how I try to live my life is just looking at everything from every direction. not in like an anxious or paranoid sense sure but just genuinely because you can't form in my opinion good opinions or perspectives about anything without looking at both sides like nothing is ever black and white it can't be and I think that experience helped me understand that to be at the point where I am where I have amazing work yeah yeah which is so great so how
- Speaker #0
I mean, as we like get towards the end of our conversation, you, you're in a space now where you like your job, you're getting paid much more, but yeah, what you need to be paid as you should. You are working with data, but it's an Excel, but you're also supervising people, right? So tell me about how coming from that job for eight years and working with me and our team for how many, four, two, two.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. Like almost exactly two, I think.
- Speaker #0
Yeah.
- Speaker #1
Like almost to the day.
- Speaker #0
Oh, that is wild.
- Speaker #1
It was December to December. I know that for sure.
- Speaker #0
Oh, okay. So then working with us for two years and then now in the role you're at, like you are supervising people. So talk to me about that little journey and then what it's like now for you at work and as a supervisor.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. I mean, like I said earlier, I genuinely feel lucky for where I landed after leaving that first agency. Because not only did it give me what I needed to kind of heal, in a sense, but also gave me a renewed sense of, oh, there are actually leaders out there who are good leaders and lead with empathy and respect the people who they supervise. And fully will admit that when it came down to us not being able... to continue the work that we were doing um for anybody listening no nicole didn't fire me um never never i was again terrified like what am i gonna do if i end up somewhere where i don't have a room um but i got somehow lucky for a second time and have ended up in a position let me actually rephrase that i lucky for a third third third time I believe, because I had a great boss when I started my current job, who unfortunately left a few months in. And once again, we have found another great boss who all have very similar leadership styles. And I'm very fortunate for that. I was a little nervous to get into supervising again. But truly don't know what I have done in the past to have gotten as lucky as I have, because I have a great little team. There's four of us on our little data team. They are all amazing. They all do such good work. They genuinely care about it and are passionate about it. And they make supervising easy, like point blank period. Like I just have gotten lucky to have such amazing people around me.
- Speaker #0
I love that. And I'm so glad that you, it's taken a long time to get there, but. I'm glad that you got there and that you get to kind of come to the other side and take that deep breath and go, okay. Yeah.
- Speaker #1
It's been wonderful because genuinely at the end of my time at that other agency, I was not sure I was going to make it out of there. It was rough. So, yeah, I just love going into now this second team that I have of people who. are passionate about this work and enjoy being with each other. It doesn't feel like a chore, which is great.
- Speaker #0
I mean, I think we are winning if we can get in a job where it doesn't feel like such a chore. And we have good relationships with people. Like, that's a whiz.
- Speaker #1
People from my past have come into this job now as well, which is so funny. One of the people I supervise, I worked with at this past agency.
- Speaker #0
That is so funny.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. So we sort of knew each other. We worked in different programs, but we were there at the same time. So it was like, holy crap, we both ended up here.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, nonprofit world, especially here in Nashville, is very small. It's kind of a, I wish there was a better word, but it's a bit incestuous. We've all worked with everybody at all the different places and then circled back.
- Speaker #1
And then some of them, for some reason, cannot separate personal lives from that little nonprofit network.
- Speaker #0
A lot of them. What would you say to anybody who might be in a space where they, even if it's not to the degree that you were experiencing, they're in a job, they're in a work place where they want to be there, but they also want to leave? Like, what would you say to them?
- Speaker #1
You got to put yourself first, point blank, period. Nothing else to say. Like, and I cannot believe this. What just came to me? I mean, in the words of the famous rule, like, if you can't love yourself, how in the hell are you going to love somebody else? Like, you cannot do anything in a helping profession or in general, if you're not taking care of yourself. Like you can't pour from an empty cup, as they say.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. I mean, yeah, I don't know what else to say. You said it. That's true.
- Speaker #1
We talked about how smart and amazing I was.
- Speaker #0
I know. I know. Yeah. And you were like, who is Corey? Well, this is Corey.
- Speaker #1
I told you I have layers. I just don't like talking about the layers.
- Speaker #0
So many layers. I think this is really going to help other people and connect to other people because I think it's such a universal. experience, whether you're in a helping profession or not, but especially if you're in a helping profession or a nonprofit where you are in this constant space of giving to someone else and also like 90% of the time not getting paid nearly what you should get paid or getting space to take care of yourself.
- Speaker #1
For those not getting the space to take care of yourself.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. Yeah. Well, as we wrap up, I would love to know If you could tell me something about you that is ridiculous or relatable. And if you need some examples, I can give an example. But yeah, something that you do that is completely ridiculous, maybe a little crazy, but also maybe relatable.
- Speaker #1
Oh, you know, we talked about this earlier. I had some things on my mind. And again, they're all gone. I'm also like looking around my room next to me like, hmm, what is going to spark like something weird I do?
- Speaker #0
Either look around your room or think about your daily rituals or what I always tell people now, you don't have this because we're like recording right now. But ask your like, think of somebody you've dated, somebody that is in your family or close friend that's like, Corey, what? What are you doing?
- Speaker #1
That's a terrifying thought, first of all. which piece the the dating or the friend or the family what which family obvious oh okay okay i'm sure david had the longest list no man okay something ridiculous i do that i think i i couldn't even tell you how long i've done this because i do have a little like ocd paranoid side to me this is going to be kind of the opposite of the example you told me earlier it does relate to a shower every day when i turn my shower off and like you know when you turn it off like the little bit of excess water comes out of the bottom drain if you have a bathtub yep i have to run my foot under that really hot water i don't know why as soon as i turn it off the water comes out i put my foot out right up under it and then i get my calendar out at this point such a good one at
- Speaker #0
this point it's become i have to do this or like my life's gonna fall apart okay okay a couple questions is it do you swap feet each time or do you get a bit of each foot is it just right butt.
- Speaker #1
all my left foot okay how how long have you been doing this probably like a decade maybe whoa seriously so because when i was growing up um i had like just a standing shower so just like the top shower head but when i moved in my first apartment and every apartment since then i've had like a bathtub shower so i it definitely started somewhere around my first apartment which was about 10 years ago.
- Speaker #0
Wow. And just the first year. Remember the first time, like why you did it the first time?
- Speaker #1
Oh, no, I was fully not kidding. Like fully had like some OCD thoughts related to it when I was younger.
- Speaker #0
Oh, okay.
- Speaker #1
But now I don't. And now it's just like kind of a habit. Like, ooh, I'm just still going to put my foot in there.
- Speaker #0
And do you do it the same way every time? Like just like the side, the top or, you know? Is it the same?
- Speaker #1
I will say I'm typically always like facing the same way. So then I just like stick my foot out. That's why it's my left foot always because it's just the way I'm standing. Gotcha. And where the spout is.
- Speaker #0
I'd be so interested if you move and get a new house and for some reason it's like on the other side.
- Speaker #1
Okay, so I've switched before.
- Speaker #0
Okay.
- Speaker #1
It's not always been the left because previously I was the other direction in my last. apartment and you would just do whatever is on the yeah it was my right foot this is hilarious this is a great one so if i like move somewhere and you know back to a standing shower god forbid what am i gonna do oh man okay i love it i don't do it but this is this is great yeah
- Speaker #0
i mean that's the whole point right yeah i mean that would be ridiculous mine was i think the one i said earlier but i wasn't recording is i just don't like like it creeps me out to stand like my feet touching the bottom of the shower. there's no logic behind it i still do it i don't wear shower shoes but it isn't like i don't mind tile tile isn't the same but it's that weird like slimy white tub you know sometimes it's that like feeling of the like slimy white tub it's like and
- Speaker #1
i don't like it and i want to get out i like felt that in my spine when you said slimy white tub for some reason see you know what i mean i do know the feeling you mean absolutely yeah yeah well
- Speaker #0
Thank you for just sharing your comedic relief, but also being very vulnerable and sharing your experience because I do think it is really impactful and it's going to connect to a lot of people.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. It was wonderful to catch up with you here.
- Speaker #0
I just want to say thank you so much to each of you who listened to today's episode and spend your time with me and with others as we try to navigate the bothness of life. If this show is meaningful to you and resonates with you, it would mean so much to me if you would take a moment to follow the show on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can do that by hitting the little plus sign on the main show page or hitting follow or subscribe. If you could also leave a rating or review and share it with somebody who might need it, it would mean the world to me. This really is the most impactful thing that you can do for the podcast. And that's how this community grows. through real people, real stories, and honest conversations passed from one person to another. So thank you again for listening. And remember, it's okay to feel all the things, because so many times in life, it isn't either or, it's both.
