- Speaker #0
What's helpful is be present with your pain, but also be present with the beauty that still is alive in your life. Because you'll find that, I mean, that was one thing that was surprising for me is that I can be completely devastated, devastated, feeling broken. And then a friend of mine will say a joke and I will be cracking up at the same time. It's like, you know, this feeling of devastation is inside of you. And if someone says something and you're laughing at the same time. And I think. to be human is to live in a paradox.
- Speaker #1
Welcome to It's Both, the podcast where we explore the messy, beautiful contradictions of being human. I'm your host, Nikki P. And each week I sit down with real people navigating life's complexities. Those moments when life isn't just one thing. It's so many. And this week, I sit down with my friend Annie as she shares her journey through grief and loss, talking about the importance of love, community, and self-awareness. She also talks about being intentional in her processing of emotions as she experienced great loss in her life and the transformative power of grief. Annie also talks about the paradox of feeling both pain and joy simultaneously, both feelings of of gratefulness and deep loss all within the same moment. And before we jump in, I do want to let you know that today's episode does talk about some really hard things, including suicide, which may be triggering or distressing for some listeners. So please be aware of this content as it may be difficult to hear. If this topic isn't right for you today, please feel free to skip this episode or revisit it when you're ready. For those of you who choose to stay, let's get into today's episode. Well, welcome.
- Speaker #0
Hi. Hi, hi.
- Speaker #1
It's so good to have you here.
- Speaker #0
Thank you for having me. Thank you. I appreciate it.
- Speaker #1
I would love it if you would just kind of talk about, a little bit about who you are. Who is Annie?
- Speaker #0
Hello. My name is Annie Parrison, and I would say Annie is love. And I'm typically, I've been trying not to introduce myself as what it is that I do when I'm in public. Love that. So I start out with saying that I'm love. But I am love in a way that is like pragmatic. Like how do we infuse love in the things that we do all the time? And anyone who knows me probably will tell you love and joy are probably the words that people used to describe me the most. And just for technical purposes, I am passionate about children. And I will pretty much do anything that will enhance systems to connect. people to resources. And I know people talk about poverty a lot, and I don't think poverty itself is the issue. I think it's the lack of access to information. I'm going to use resources as a whole because when people are connected to resources, it doesn't matter how much money they have, they can thrive. So I am big into systems work, systems work that allows families to get connected to services that they need to properly care for children. Some who know me and all the things that I do may not always see the through line in all the things that I do. But really, it's all about improving the environment, like community environment, in a way that helps children grow and thrive.
- Speaker #1
I love that. I love it so much. And it's funny because I was structuring these questions and most people, you already did it. Like most people will say, you know, this is what I do for my job. You know, I may or may not have a partner. I may or may not have kids. like All those things you kind of start out with. And then I have to go, okay, but who are you really? Like, right. Let's get to the, like the meat of it. Those are pretty core. What you just said are pretty core to you. What are some things that you like to do in your free time? Some things that you, that just kind of bring you joy outside of those main things.
- Speaker #0
I love being with people. I, and I tell my friends this all the time. I'm not me without you all. And what I love about my relationships or relationships in general is how well you get to know yourself. because you experience yourself in those relationships. So that's one of the main, I love hanging out with the people that I love. Reading, I read about a book a week. What? Yeah, it's kind of obsessive. And you don't realize how much time you, I know that people say a lot, like there's not enough hours in the day. Yeah. If you're intentional, there is. Yeah. And I try to get like good night rest. I've become obsessed with like resting. Yeah. So sleeping. seven hours. I've not made it yet where it's consistent when I'm getting seven hours of sleep. It sounds crazy. I'm saying I enjoy sleeping. I love sleeping.
- Speaker #1
I love sleeping.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. Sleeping brings me joy and it's a goal for me to make it to seven hours. a night this year, that consistent seven hours. And I'm not saying one day or two, and I'm at that six hours and 15 minutes right now. So we're working on that. I also, yeah, I love incremental progress. I'm okay with. I also love to dance. I will turn on the music loud. I have Alexas all over the house and I'll play in the home system and then I'll just turn the music really loud in my house. I love that. And I will just have a dance party by myself a lot. But I also like to go out to dance with friends too. And I love to travel. I love experiencing new places and new things in general. My friends joke around too. I'm always learning. So I will say learning brings me joy, especially things that help me understand the human psyche more. It's like the more I can understand why people are the way that they are, it helps me stay loving. Like it opens the box where it's like, oh, I can extend love to you and not take this personally. Because I know what's at play here.
- Speaker #1
And all this sounds so true to what I've experienced of you, like even in a workspace, right? And even when you've gotten up and like led trainings or led conversations or whatever, I mean, it's just so authentic to who you are and definitely can attest that that is how I've seen you show up in space.
- Speaker #0
I try to be consistent.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. Well, I think you're doing amazing.
- Speaker #0
Thanks. Thank you.
- Speaker #1
So today we're talking about grief and we are talking about. The multitude of feelings, thoughts, things that come with the experience of loss and grief. And I don't exactly know your whole story, but I know you have a story. I know you have a story around this. And I would love it if you would just share with us, you know, start wherever you want from the beginning or whatever part makes the most sense for you. Talk to us about your experience with loss and grief and how that showed up for you.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, I would say. For the better part of my life, I was fortunate enough to not have like had major loss. And then in 2016, I lost my uncle. 2017, I lost another uncle. In 2018, I lost my dad. And I think grief is this thing that maybe I'm not grief itself because grief, I think, is the entire journey. Yeah. And then loss is the thing that you're like. Like that starts you off on the journey. And I will say when I lost my two uncles, there was almost this immediate, let's get back to life. And it wasn't until I lost my dad that I took time to recognize like, oh, these losses. So this like, these are father figures. Like they were present father figures in my life. Yeah. And with the loss of my dad, I think it was like the universe. was calling me to attention. And that's when things got really dark for a long time. And I think I was in that space for a long time. And then in 2021, lost my partner. So I was like, okay, at this point, like what's going on? And remembering how I dealt with the loss when I lost my dad motivated me to do things differently this time around. With your partner. With my partner. Because what ended up happening is like my dad wasn't an everyday part of my life, but he was like a root. Like he's at the root of who I am. And I experienced that loss a lot differently than I experienced my partner, who was an everyday consistent part of my life.
- Speaker #1
Yeah.
- Speaker #0
And I remember for the first like two or three months, I would wake up. Maybe the first two months, I'd wake up in a panic attack. And it would be like for the first like... 30 seconds. It's like life was just as it's supposed to be. And then I would remember and it would be like, and what was beautiful about when I lost my partner is how much my village showed up right from the beginning. And that my, and I never thought about it until now that we're, that I'm sharing. And I'm wondering if that wasn't the motivation for grieving in community this time around. Cause I don't think we do that. We grieve in silence. We don't talk about it. I mean, and I say, I talked about my dad, but it was with folks who could hold me. And we don't, like, we tend to, like, keep it in this box of taboo thing that we don't talk about. Because it's like, you don't want to be the crazy person in the room that's like, oh, I'm feeling sad because my dad died. Or I'm feeling sad because my partner died. And while everybody's, like, laughing in the room. And They showed up right from the beginning, motivated me to keep them in the process. And I share this specifically because I remember there was a friend at the time who lived in Mississippi, but now he's in Philadelphia. And he took a week off work. Wow. The week after, like he passed on a Tuesday and my friend was there that Sunday. And he stayed with me until Friday. And I'm sharing this because I remembered him holding me in the mornings when I would be like in full panic mode. And the beautiful thing is as devastated I felt, I remember feeling so grateful, so grateful for like the presence. And then I was inspired to just, okay, I am not gonna. Say I'm doing fine. When somebody asks, how are you today? It will be an intentional body scan. And I'll give you the answer that most, like it to be a true answer. And it also be an answer that best fits the situation. Because I'm not going to say, oh my gosh, I'm just devastated and sad. When you're just walking past that work and saying, hey, how are you doing today? Like you don't have the time. Like, you know what? I'll be fine. I will get there. Today is one of those days that's been. A little heavy, but I'll get there. So I think losing my partner helped shift presence of mine when I was interacting with people. And I would say the biggest difference that helped me through the process, besides my therapist, because she got an email literally hours after it happened, I would say is my village. And yeah, it's one of those things that I recently realized, like losing my partner and really like sitting with it, because I don't think I took the time to do that with my uncles and my dad. And then really sitting with it and reflecting is really helping me deal with loss moving forward. And I'm like, yes, there is a sadness, but I think being intentional about the way that I experienced this is really. shedding, being pragmatic. I'm very pragmatic in that people are going to die. And I don't think it should rob me of joy and love when it happens because this is going to happen. And what I love about now is you can never prepare for somebody to die or for you to lose something significant. I think what is helping me, it's just helping me deal with it in a really healthy way, even if I'm in bed for a few days. I know that's a natural progression. My body's got to process through the loss and the pain and all that. So I think I just have a more healthy view in relationship with loss and grief.
- Speaker #1
And you said something, have you always viewed loss or death from that lens? like from being pragmatic or did you always view it that way? Or did the experience of losing these people within a relatively, I mean, that's a short period of time to have so much loss in your life. Did that move you more into that space?
- Speaker #0
I think one thing I tell myself now is if you can get through losing him, you can get through anything. And I think probably the journey to now is why I'm so pragmatic about it. Because before that, I was very like, emotions don't matter. We just get serious and do the work. Underneath all that, I think there was just an immense fear, which is why I can understand why I went right back to work. Because if I didn't face the fact that my uncles weren't there or my dad wasn't there, then I didn't have to deal with it. And for a long time, I didn't realize how dark my life got after I lost my dad. until my partner transitioned. And then I was like, oh, we've got to do something different. Like some things just have to change.
- Speaker #1
And with your, I know you've mentioned like, of course, the effects of losing a partner. And from what it sounds like, I'm assuming it wasn't something you knew about ahead of time. It wasn't like a sickness where he, where they were, you kind of had some heads up. And I'm not saying that would make it easier by any means. But. it does seem like it kind of came out of nowhere.
- Speaker #0
I tell people in contrast, yes, you can never prepare for this kind of thing. Right, right. But my dad had been sick for like eight years before he transitioned. We knew it was coming. And there's a part of me that sort of feels like it was easier for me. Like I knew it was coming. It didn't hurt less. Right. But it was easier when it came because we knew it was only a matter of time. Yeah. And he transitioned peacefully in his sleep with my, I mean, and the doctors told us he was coming. He transitioned on a Tuesday and I was with him the whole week. before because he lives in Canada. And then I flew back to Nashville and weirdly enough, I was at the Stuff the Bus event for United Way. When the text came in, I took it out of my pocket. I read it. I put the phone back in my pocket and I went back to stuffing backpacks.
- Speaker #1
Wow.
- Speaker #0
And I did not think about it for the rest of the day. And I remembered texting my partner and saying, hey, can I come over tonight? And he said, of course. And then I got there and I was just really quiet and knowing me really well and what's going on. And it wasn't until I told him that I think it hit me like, yeah, this is happening. So it was one of these moments that. our relationship changed when my dad transitioned. Your relationship with your partner? Yeah, with my partner. Yeah. Because I don't think I would have called him my partner before my dad transitioned. And he was just somebody I was dating. And we'd been dating for a while too. But me personally on this end, I was a diehard feminist to the point that I'm recognizing that. And then this is the beauty. And that's because there's beauty in law. Well, I'm finding that there's beauty in loss too, because of the things you realize about yourself and the ways you realize, well, I've realized I got in my own way. So I dated with no intention in that relationship and in life in general. Like I dated with no intention of getting married. I didn't want to have children. And those things were like, I wouldn't date you if you wanted to have children. have children. That's how very pragmatic I was. Maybe there is a level of pragmatism in my life already, but that's kind of how it was. And losing him also helped me realize how I got in the way of our relationship progressing. And something like losing your dad will definitely draw you closer to someone, especially if they're showing you they want to be there for you. And that's kind what transitioned our relationship significantly. And. With him, he died by suicide. So there's a, I like to say there's a thing with lost. And then what I think I sat with with my therapist is lost, for me, felt like it was a loss by choice. Like you left me. And I like to tell people I didn't have abandonment issues before, but I developed abandonment issues after.
- Speaker #1
Yeah.
- Speaker #0
After this episode. And there's a part of me. Even through therapy, I remember telling myself, we always respected each other's choices. And that goes beyond life or death. This is how we've always been. We've always honored freedom in our relationship. We prioritize that. We talked about things. And we're going to have to find a way to accept this final choice. And it hurt for a long time. I drove to work just about. crying every morning for about six or eight months. Every morning. I drove home every night. I found myself taking a different drive home because I didn't want to drive past where he lived. And I think it took about six months before I would pull up in front of his house. And then it was just broke down. But it was cathartic. I'm recognizing now. Those things are necessary because they're cathartic. And then.
- Speaker #1
But also in the moment, how, you know, it's both, right? Like it's cathartic, but also it may be if you're not ready. Yes. And or the length of time to experience something so heavy. It's just so much. It's so much.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. If now I can say it was cathartic at the time, it was devastating. Yeah. It was devastating. Like. to see the house and his mom was the, was doing all the, what I call business side of death. And I know the house was on the market and like I... Like I walked to the front porch and then all the memories just come flooding back. And then I walked around to the back and it was just, I was like, oh, I got it. I just remember telling myself, you need to get out of here. So to your point, then it was devastating. Now I can recognize like that it was cathartic because I needed to feel close to him in that moment, which is why I drove over and then recognizing that, yeah, this, we're not there yet. and driving home and recognizing too, I started to lean on like when I went over to the house and I was like, okay, I'm going to have to find another way to feel closer to you. And this is one of those crazy things that happens. I started to think about small things I can do to honor him. Right. And it looked like okay, we're getting up this morning and we're actually going to work or we're gonna, I'm from Haiti. So one of the things that we do to signify loss is to only wear black. So I wore black for about a year and a half. Black is my favorite color. So it worked out. So I did do that. And That's another way to kind of feel close to him. Because when I was getting up in the morning, I adorned myself in black. It was like, okay. And then there were small things like he would want you to be happy. So today we're going to meet with this friend who wants to take you out to lunch. And he transitioned in September. My birthday was in October. I just remember like the slew of people who showed up. with birthday present, I was like, well, everyone feels sorry for me. And it's like, no, everyone loves you.
- Speaker #1
And did you think both of those things in the moment or did you later go, oh no, that's love?
- Speaker #0
No. In the moment I said, oh, these people feel sorry for me. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, you know, as you reflect later on and the healing process really starts, you start to see, girl, that's love. It's just love. People showed out. Yeah. And I remember because of who he was, I remembered Or I remember thinking I needed to prioritize love. I needed to prioritize joy. And also staying true to me, I also needed to be angry because I was angry for a long time. Like I was angry and I was like, oh, yeah, I was just angry for a long time. What I appreciate is that I was very intentional not to. lash out on the people who were showing up for me because I recognized who the anger was directed at and being very careful because you know sometimes when you're in the midst of it all and nothing makes sense you don't know who what when where and I also remembered feeling alone at the same time that I'm like oh you're love and you're feeling all the love from your community I remember feeling so alone. And realizing how much of my emotional health rested with him, how I wasn't showing up fully in my other relationships because he was going to be the one that would like, he's all I need. Even though I'm like making sure I'm making time for friends, I was showing up for friends. Like I was taking care of them and not giving them a chance to take care of me. So I would say that was one of the lessons I learned. When he wasn't there physically anymore for me to like lean on, I needed to make the choice to like, okay, this looks like everybody else who's here for you and has shown you they want to be there for you. We're going to have to do like, this is the option to unload with them and be with them and share your full emotional self with them.
- Speaker #1
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- Speaker #0
Yeah. I'd say the biggest way that I realized that was if my friend would do something that was really hurtful, I wouldn't address it. I would just go to him and then we would talk about it and then I'd feel better. And then I'd feel loving again towards that friend. Like if that meant like I'm going to stay away from Nicole for like two or three weeks while he helps me sort through it. I'm going to stay away from Nicole for two or three weeks. And then I'll come back being my loving self again. And it got so clear how often that was happening. And also what I realized was how unfair that was to my relationships. Because I read Bell Hooks, All About Love after. And I want to say last year. and She uses the definition of love from The Road Less Traveled. And it's love is, I'm going to butcher the quote, so I'm not going to try to quote it. But the gist of it is when you love someone, their spiritual growth is now your responsibility. And I'm recognizing by not allowing, by not holding people accountable for the way that I wanted to be loved, I wasn't giving them a chance to reflect on their behaviors. and eventually grow from it. So I'm recognizing the ways, and this is why I said there's beauty in lost as well, because through the loss, as I'm reflecting on all of this, I'm saying, yes, this hurts. And here are some opportunities for you to expand your capacity for love, because I'm seeing all these things that were unconscious to me before. Yes, I would probably say that was the biggest way.
- Speaker #1
I mean, even as you're saying it, it's hitting home for me because I'm like, wow, I definitely do that, whether it's my personality or whether it's, I think. growing up as a woman. I don't know, like, there's this idea, at least from my experience, when I'm one of the things I'm connecting with, as I hear you talk about that very specific thing is, you know, not only is it not fair to them, but it's not fair to you. It's not showing up authentically as you. And I myself, you know, don't like to cause anyone discomfort. And I feel like when I share I'm hurt or angry, like it's so hard for me to tell someone I'm angry. Now I can tell my partner and I can tell my mom. everyone else, it is really hard for me to be like, I'm mad at you. And very similarly, I'm, you know, it's hard for me to distinguish. I'm going to be way more aware of it now, but it's hard for me to distinguish. Like, do I just need somebody to vent to right? Versus no, no, no, this isn't, I need to go to my partner who I trust and vent. I need to actually go to that person and have a conversation.
- Speaker #0
And I think that that's, I think I'm kind of in awe of your ability as I'm hearing you share your story to see all these layers and all of this like conflicting, what feels like conflicting feelings and the tension in, I mean, the multitude of, we're not even talking about just feelings and emotions, but like the thoughts that then go along with those things.
- Speaker #1
The cognitive processes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I love that you said it's not fair to yourself. So one of the things that I think, one of the lessons that are with me even today is holding people accountable is an act of self-love. Like, it's an act of self-love. When, after he transitioned in 21, 23 was my year of self-love. Like, we are prioritizing self-love and seeing what that looks like. I stopped drinking. I mean, and it was like a completely sober year for me. And to your point, the cognitive processes that we're talking about, I think everything got so vivid. Because one of the things is I'm a social drinker, but I'm social all the time. And it occurred to me, you're pretty much drinking for four to five days a week because you're social all the time. And what I recognized is how alcohol was robbing me of present moments. And then for somebody who. experiencing his loss, I got really attached to my people. It's like, I want these memories are what's fueling this healing process. So I need more of them, not less. And I recognize with just one drink, your level, of course, your level of like presence decreases. And then not only does it decrease your memory formation too. And I think there's a science behind memory blockers and things like that. You're losing these memories. So for me, it got really important for me to keep these memories that I was having with people that I love. And like outside of the health benefits from 2020, from not having, from not drinking in 2023, there was also a spiritual benefit because I started to recognize the sanctity of people's presence or the responsibility. as a human being. Like when somebody is offering you their time, that's their most, I'm going to say, I think it's their most precious, the most important currency that they have. And when they offer it to you, not to take it lightly. And for me, who my partner was 41 at the time, 42 at the time he transitioned. And it's just, for me, time has become precious. And I keep saying life is. too short.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. Yeah. And I, you know, I'm hearing you talk about what you experienced, the story itself, what you felt, what you thought, what you were aware of, what you learned, how you processed. And one of the things I'm just wondering, because this is so complex and you, you correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I know about you and what I experienced of you. Prior to we worked together, I don't remember when you left, but I think this happened maybe after you left. You already had a lot of emotional intelligence, right? I would imagine from how I've experienced you, what you've taught and trained. So you have this incredible intelligence, emotional awareness, connection with others. And yet, even being in that space, it seems like it was incredibly. difficult. I mean, how could it not be for anyone? But also, did you have any awareness in the moment? Because as I'm hearing you talk about all these things that you were feeling and kind of the almost the conflict, I don't know that that's the right word, the tension maybe is a better word. Did you, through processing, through therapy, through all that stuff later, kind of realize the multitude of things that you were dealing with at the time or in the moment in that, you know, week, month, year after that, were you aware of all of that in that moment? Like, I'm feeling this and this.
- Speaker #1
I would say at the beginning, all I felt was, I felt anger and not just at him. I forgot to say, I grew up Catholic. So I do believe in God, even though I call it the universe. And I'm not attached to what we call, that what we would call source. And source tends to be what I go to when I'm speaking to everyone because I like to be inclusive. And I was angry at Source. I remember saying, a lot, which also shed light later on when I'm processing. It's like, I'm a good person. This does not happen to me. I said it so many times. And then it occurred to me that why do I think I'm special? And I asked myself, why do you think you're special? What makes you exempt from loss and grief and death? Why do you think that? Or were you aware that you were thinking that. And until I said those things out loud, I didn't realize that that was alive in my body. Yet somehow I felt like I was special. Like something about me made it so that these things don't happen to me. That was very humbling. Like it was like losing him was a very humbling experience because it grounded me in my humanity. And I don't think I have been, I have felt more human. then through this healing process. And also one of the biggest thing I think that catalyzes my healing was I joined a fellowship program. It's called the transformative educational leadership. And they pretty much, they support leaders with, they support leaders by exploring spirituality and education. Weird thing is I had been connected with them through a speaker back in 2019. And this is why. I learned about divine synchronicity while I was in the program. And they had a cohort happening in 2019 that I believe the speaker talked about, but I didn't, wasn't paying attention. I remember he was amazing. I signed up for his newsletter and the information for the fellowship came in a newsletter. And in 2022, about a couple of months after he transitioned. happened to stumble on the newsletter. And I was like, oh, and then it turns out the day I stumbled on newsletter was the last day to apply for the fellowship. So I turned in the application on that very last day. And then when it came back, I was like, oh, I can't afford this. They emailed me back saying your application was strong. We really need your presence in this cohort. So they paid for about two thirds of the program. And I wasn't, I only paid for one third. So it's like, it's all these and we don't often sit down and think about the smaller things that are happening, which is why we're talking about the complexity of it. Because there's so many little things happening that are causing medium things that are causing large things, and they're all interacting with each other. So it's not like a clear, okay, this is where this ends, this start, this is where this ends, this start. They're all kind of like a potluck of things. My brother used to miss meals, like breakfast, lunch, and dinner. And at dinner, he would just throw. everything in a big bowl, mix it all in. So like, as I'm talking to you, that's the picture that came to mind. It's like all these meals in one interacting with each other. And you have no idea where breakfast is and where dinner is because it's all in this big bowl. Right? So what I loved about the program and I know, and I'm saying it was divine synchronicity. They helped me see that holding on to the physical relationship I had. with my partner was what was causing me to suffer. Like pain is different from suffering. I feel like pain is inevitable. Like if you're a human being, you will experience pain. Like loss is pain, but suffering is prolonged pain. And it typically happens because we're holding on to something that we need to let go of. And at least that's how I'm interpreting it. And I'm realizing I was holding on to our physical relationship and I wanted it back. And that was causing me a lot of pain. And I remembered in therapy when I said, I'm choosing to let go of our physical relationship so that I can start to explore what this new relationship looks like. Because for us, for me, not to be in a relationship with him was just never an option for me. So I, yeah, it was just never an option. So it was, I'm letting go of this physical relationship that we had. So that I can start to explore what this metaphysical one looks like. And once I did that, I think things started to settle. Even in my body, I could feel the difference. And I went one day and there were no tears. And then I went another day and there were no tears. And then a week went by and there were no tears. And then a month went by and there were no tears. And I say tears because I like to think. that I'm a pretty like, I'm pretty. even kill when it comes to like things like this. And tears signifies to me that like, yeah, this is big. And I know this is big, which is transition. Since he transitioned, I cry the job of, I'm like, oh, this is so cute. And I feel like something I like to tell people, loss for me is like an obliteration. And then every time. you choose to piece yourself back together. But of course, just like a broken glass, you piece it together. It's never what it was before. And for me, I think that's something beautiful because what you also end up finding, unlike the glass, is there are parts of you that you weren't aware of. And if you hadn't been obliterated, you wouldn't have had the chance to find them. So that's the beauty for me. It's like, wow, even in death, you are still... offering me ways to love myself and ways to love us and be grateful for the time we had and the ways in which you continue to influence my life. So like to your point, I don't know that in the beginning there was an awareness and it was divine synchronicity that landed in the program that was exploring spirituality. And I do think grieving has a way of connecting you to source in a way that nothing else does. Like you are definitely face to face with your mortality every time you lose someone to death. And it's like, whew.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. And how does that, how has that, you've talked a little bit about it, but how does it shift how you view mortality and death moving forward with those close to you? Whether it be a partner, a friend, a close family member.
- Speaker #1
Two things. I think I'm learning. to be authentic and not that I'm not authentic and I mean authentic in a way that doesn't make me fall back to, I have a, I ended up like dating again and I met someone wonderful and we're engaged. So it's, yeah, thank you. Yes. So it's in all of the ways that I think this new, all of the ways this, the, the old relationship made me wise enough to fully experience this new relationship And, uh... I say all this because I think it's the pragmatism we talked about earlier. It's being present in the fact that I'm more aware that like, you know, when sometimes people say, oh, you know, it'll get better with time. But they say it too early in the grieving process because there's a timing. Because like when people will be like, well, at least don't ever start.
- Speaker #0
Never say it, Leah. No.
- Speaker #1
with at least when someone has lost something. That's the worst two words in the dictionary. And I'm recognizing that now if someone says it to me, I can say it's coming from a place of love if I were to lose someone today. And then the pragmatism I talk about is not for lack of feeling, it's more of being grounded in the present moment and knowing that what's present today isn't eternal. And also to, I think, leaning on the memories of like, the trajectory of this particular grieving process is also offering some wisdom as like, oh, I forget where I read this. They said, I feel like someone gave me a book because they know I process cognitively and the sudden loss survival guide. And in that book, I feel like they said, when loss is fresh. it's bigger than you are. Whether you're conscious or unconscious of it, what ends up happening is you start to grow bigger than it. It doesn't get smaller, which is why sometimes people think it's like you change, right? No, it's like, no, I feel like that was the most beautiful visual. It's like the grief, like you don't stop feeling like the loss. It's just that you eventually grow larger than it. So it feels like it's smaller, but it's not. And I feel like through the healing process of allowing myself to be in community and working with folks, I feel like I've gotten larger in it. That perspective is what I think makes me pragmatic, that's going to make me pragmatic in the future. It's like, yeah, this hurts now, but keep getting up and keep finding the joys and keep finding the gratitude and know that the person isn't gone. They're just somewhere different. Yeah. whatever we want to, wherever we want to believe they are. For me, it's like they're now they're with me forever. And I think that was one of the things that helped me with my dad too, is like before he was in Canada and you were in Nashville, now he's with you all the time. He's seeing all the milestone happening in real time. He's sitting there with you. You're channeling him whenever you want to. And then there are ways like, this is probably crazy. There are ways that you're like, you know, they're in the room and it's small little things like, Yeah. Somebody will say something and you're like, oh, okay. Yeah. And I just appreciate that for me, I interpret it as ways that they're saying, yeah, we're still with you and we're still, we still got you back.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. I don't think that's crazy. Well, and I think that just the shift of language, I've never heard, I've never heard that shift where instead of thinking about this idea that the pain and the loss will subside and get less. I think what you said makes so much sense because it's like, of course it won't. To me, that almost implies you love them less over time. But the way you reframe that or that book or wherever, I don't know if that was you or the book, but whoever, right? That is a huge shift in the way we view that because it honors the love and the loss and the grief and all of that, the relationship and also says, but you will eventually grow bigger.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. And it also adds this, for me, it made me think that there's no limit to how big you can grow. So there's this added motivation now to figure out, okay, if we can do this, what are some of these other things that we've been afraid to do that we can't tap into? So it's almost like boosted curiosity now. It's like, oh, what else are we capable of?
- Speaker #0
Yeah. What would you say to somebody who is going through grief, loss, suffering, pain, wherever they are in that spectrum of experience? What might you say to them?
- Speaker #1
I would say everybody's experience is different. What's helpful is be present with your pain, but also be present with the beauty that's. still is alive in your life because you'll find that, I mean, that was one thing that was surprising for me is that I can be completely devastated, like devastated, feeling broken. And then a friend of mine will say a joke and I will be cracking up at the same time. It's like, you know, this feeling of devastation is inside of you. And if someone says something and you're laughing at the same time. And I think to be human is to live in a paradox. But I don't think we often, like we live in a world of binary that tells us things can't be true at the same time. And that's my openness, even at work. And I feel like it's helpful at work too when people are like, well, this and this. And it's like, well, I feel like there's a third thing that we're not seeing. And Parker Palmer talks about the third thing too. So it's one of those things that like. Now I'm invited to think about, okay, this might be the reality now, but what happens if we put our heads together and try to figure out what that third thing is? So like inviting us to recognize the paradoxes that is being a human being and not being afraid of them because we, I mean, simplicity is great, but sometimes. I like to simplify things that are complex. And the way that I say that is like, for me, it's like, okay, this is complicated, but I'm going to ask myself this one that I simplified for myself because it's complicated, because I don't want to get lost in all of the layers like we just talked about. Yeah. So I'll simplify it for myself. And for this grieving process is recognizing what's, where, where's the line where I transition from being in pain to suffering. And I found that line for myself. And then I decided to not cross it. So I'm like, okay, I can live with the pain, but I don't want to suffer from it. So I would say, be present with your pain. Don't try to compare your situation to other people's situation. Because depending on who you lost, the grieving process looks different.
- Speaker #0
For sure.
- Speaker #1
And give yourself what you need. Like don't be afraid to ask people for what you need to. And I think oftentimes, like just in the same way of like, you know, a friend's going to do something, but we're going to let them pass because I'm going to let this, let him handle it. Don't be afraid to ask for what you need. People are more willing to offer it than we realize. So grieving in community.
- Speaker #0
Well, that's what I was just about to ask you. And it also sounds like something you would recommend that shifted between your family, your uncles, your father versus your partner would be the inviting in or the acceptance of others coming into the space with you. Yeah. Which I think is so. incredibly hard. I feel like more in Western culture where we're like, I don't know if it's this idea of embarrassment or like we don't want others to feel uncomfortable with the depth and like the intensity of something like pain and loss. You know, I don't know exactly what that is, but I think there is this tendency for us to go, I'm going to go in my room and shut the door and cry and scream when no one's around versus letting someone into that space with you.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. The pragmatist in me wants to say that it's easier to be in your room because most people don't have the skill to hold someone who's grieving. And there's a skill needed to hold someone that's in grief. And because most people don't have this skill, it's an unconscious choice to protect. If I don't talk to you about it, there's not an opportunity for you to hurt me. And even though it's not personal, it's not malicious, it's just most people do not have, most people don't have the skill to help people emotionally, period. Much less if you're grieving or if you're going through something that's really difficult.
- Speaker #0
Yeah.
- Speaker #1
So I go back to skill. I'm like, okay, what's the skill I need to work on to support with this? Even with like emotional intelligence, we like to think like, oh, some people are just born this way. And I think everything can be cultivated, which is why I love working like, okay, what are the underlying factors, hidden and unhidden factors in an environment that promote these behaviors that we want to see? Okay, then how do we amplify these factors in that environment? Because I was reading, no, maybe it was Blue Zones on Netflix. And what he talked about is they wanted, there's a, I feel like it was in California. they wanted people to walk more and the city didn't have sidewalks. It's not safe to walk without sidewalks. So they added more sidewalks and then there was an incentive that they put in there and it increased people's behavior to walk. So while I do respect freedom, I also think building an environment where people have the freedom to do it or not is important. So it's like, if we know we want people to walk, let's build more sidewalks. And that way it's safe for people to walk outside of the streets where they won't get hurt. So it's when I heard that it was just confirmation that with it's almost like I love working with children. For me, it's like, yeah, it's child centered, but the adult is setting up the environment. So if I want if I want if we're learning about insects, it is child centered. But I'm a thorough whole bunch of insects in a room and eventually we'll be talking about insects. Because they're all over the room. And it's that concept that I try to apply to like when I'm working with leaders at work who want to build a culture of kindness. It's like, well, one, you have to demonstrate it. Your policies need to demonstrate that as well. And then let's start to see what are the work thing, the policies specifically that we need to shift to get people on board. And the people who don't like it, they will find the door and then you'll invite more people in. who believe in your mission and vision and want to uphold a culture of kindness in the organization.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. Well, then that also makes me think, I guess, part two of that question is, what would you say to those who have someone else in their life going through grief, pain, loss? How would you suggest someone show up well for someone in that space?
- Speaker #1
I'd say, remember, it's not about you. It is not about you. It's not how you want to do things. Even me who's lost a partner, if I'm supporting a friend who lost a partner, I do not expect them to be on my timeline. I do not expect them to see it my way. It's about them. And what research actually shows is just your presence alone, just knowing that you are there. We don't have to talk about it, especially if you know you don't have the skill to support them. Because before I learned the skill to support people, my goal was to be quiet. saying, I'm here. I just want you to know that I'm here. And I didn't say anything. Because there was always a fear in me that I would say the wrong thing and I would make your situation worse. So I just, the wise person in me is like, now is the time to be quiet. So be quiet as much as possible and know that it's not about you. And don't be afraid to say, what is it that you need in this moment? The blanketed, what do you need, is always too big of a question. It's like, I can't process what I need right now. And when we talked about all the... The dinner, like the dinner, the breakfast and lunch, that's all mixed in. It's a lot for me to decipher where the eggs are and whatever that might look like. So what is it you need in the moment is a good question because that's easier to answer than what do you need?
- Speaker #0
Yeah. Well, and I think that's, I asked those questions because even as you said earlier, there is so much complexity and whether or not those listening, some of them have experienced intense loss. And some maybe haven't. Some maybe haven't had someone very close to them die or pass away or whatever the situation may be. And so going back to that idea of we don't want to necessarily simplify it, but we also do like you can never simplify the whole thing. But if there are one or two things that we can focus on as the person experiencing the loss or the person supporting someone who's experienced the loss. I know for me thinking about, okay, if I can at least hone in on one to two things, like you said, how can I actively show up for someone? I'm here. I'm here for you. Even that practical step I think could be hugely impactful in the moment because I think people get so scared, to your point, of not knowing what to say or what to do. And it is so complex and uncomfortable that we tend to. just avoid. And not out of anything, not bad intentions behind that. We just don't want to make it worse, but then it actually probably hurts more because you don't show up.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. While you were speaking, I just thought about another thing too. Be resilient because people in grief are in pain and that pain tends to come out on other people. And I say this, the person supporting, be resilient because And I can think about it. It's like, they're not want to go out and do fun things, but ask anyway. It doesn't matter how many no's you get, ask anyway. And then don't make a big deal when the first yes comes out. Cause then it's like, okay, too much. Like, it's like, okay, let's go. And they will also hurt your feelings. And I mean, I can guarantee like, there's some things that may come out that'll hurt your feelings, but don't let that keep you from supporting them because it's all coming from like, they're in pain. And sometimes when you're in pain, you can't help but bleed it out.
- Speaker #0
Yeah.
- Speaker #1
And I meant it like while you were, it is complex, but be persistent and resilient because their pain may bleed out onto you as well because you're supporting someone in pain. And then when it does, do what you need to do is take care of yourself. Just remember to come back to them because they need your love.
- Speaker #0
Well, I can't thank you enough for just. sharing your story, being willing to come here and talk about one of, I think, the most difficult topics for so many people to talk about. And I think it's just, it's very impactful. And I'm very grateful for your time.
- Speaker #1
I'm so thankful you want to talk about it. I think we need to have these conversations more often.
- Speaker #0
Absolutely. Yeah. And so as we wrap up something a little bit lighter, I always end on a question of in a segment called ridiculous or relatable. So I don't know if you need an example or you want to jump in. Tell me what is something you do that might be ridiculous, also could be kind of relatable.
- Speaker #1
Actually, I want to share two. I think I thought of two of them, right? The one that I can think of related to grief, actually, that's a little ridiculous is I remember there are times I would not want to get out of bed and I could hear. I could hear him saying, hey, is that what we're going to do today? Like, we're just going to stay in bed. That's what we're going to do. And I remember, like, when I tell you it was a vivid kind of like, I could hear him talking to me. Wow. And I think it's ridiculous because it's like, ugh. It's the experience. Yeah. And I can't really translate into words. I think words kind of limit the somatic experience sometimes, at least the vocabulary you have to address it.
- Speaker #0
Sure, yeah.
- Speaker #1
And that's one ridiculous thing. Another, this one is super ridiculous. When I'm driving sometimes and there are things on the road. I hate to go over it because I have this idea in my head that if I go over it in the car, you know, just someone left clothes on the road or there's some food.
- Speaker #0
Okay. Yeah. Believe it or not, I keep thinking, hmm, somebody's out there. And as soon as my car gets over it, they're going to blow me up. I don't know where that comes from, but I really think.
- Speaker #1
I was like, wait, where's she going with this? Okay.
- Speaker #0
I think they're going to blow me up. So I'm like, I watched too many action movies. Clearly. In my imagination, I kid you not, it happens every single time.
- Speaker #1
Oh, no.
- Speaker #0
And if there are cars on my left and on my right. It's so bad that my body tenses up if I have to go over it because I think someone is going to blow me. I'm like on the wheel. Like it's like a physical reaction. I cannot explain it. I don't know where it comes from. I don't have any root. I've never been an explosion. I've never been near one. I've never been a natural disaster. So it's I don't know where it comes from, but it is consistent and it is ridiculous.
- Speaker #1
Oh my gosh, that is, so I don't, I don't 100%. I'm not going to say that's ridiculous, but I will say.
- Speaker #0
Ridiculous.
- Speaker #1
I mean, it's okay, it's a little ridiculous,
- Speaker #0
but
- Speaker #1
I don't have that same experience, but similar-ish, you know, and I haven't thought about it until you just said this. I also love like spy movies. I love action movies. Like I love all that stuff. I love thrillers and it's always some spy movie for me, but anytime I'm in front of a window. I am like keenly aware. I'm like, what if somebody had a gun or like.
- Speaker #0
It's funny you should say that.
- Speaker #1
A sniper on me and I'll move out of the way of the window. And it's not all the time. It's only at night usually. I don't know what I'm like, who on earth? What? What?
- Speaker #0
Why am I thinking this? Oh, my God.
- Speaker #1
This is so silly.
- Speaker #0
I have a similar thing. My sister actually makes fun of me every time she's around and I do it. She's like, you have somebody looking for you, Annie? And I'm like, no, but like, this is prime situation for a sniper to take me out. Like, look at this. And then she'll look at me and shake her head like I'm leaving. But I have a similar thing about windows at night. My partner actually is like, when it gets to a current partner, when it gets dark out, I love to open the blinds. The first thing I do in the morning is open the blinds. But the second the sun sets and it gets, it's get brighter in here. Then it is out there because then you can see in the house. Exactly. I'm like, let's close these blinds immediately.
- Speaker #2
Oh, yeah, exactly.
- Speaker #0
It's like, uh-uh.
- Speaker #1
It terrifies me.
- Speaker #0
I can't make it easy for the sniper to take me out.
- Speaker #1
That is so funny.
- Speaker #0
He's going to have to anticipate where I'm in this house.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. Good luck. Get low to the ground. Sometimes I'll like,
- Speaker #0
ooh. Yeah. These ridiculous things. Yeah. Yeah. I love it.
- Speaker #1
Wow. Thank you again. I love, thank you for sharing the silliness, the ridiculousness, and also the really, really hard, complex paradox that I think we're all experiencing in some way.
- Speaker #2
Yes,
- Speaker #0
yes. Thank you so much for having me.
- Speaker #2
If you or someone you know is struggling or thinking about suicide, call 988. Whether you're facing mental health struggles, emotional distress, alcohol or drug use concerns, or you just need somebody to talk to, the 988 Lifeline is for everyone. Through the 988 Lifeline, you have access to free quality one-on-one assistance. They have skilled, judgment-free counselors who are there to provide compassionate support. So call or text 988. I want to say a big thank you to Annie for being with us today. Thank you for being willing to share your story, to be vulnerable and authentic about your experience. Annie is a coach and consultant at Love Before All. She specializes in human-centric facilitation, consulting, coaching, and project management. If you're interested in partnering with her or learning more about what she does, you can visit her website at lovebeforeall.com. I've also linked that in the show notes below, along with her social media pages. And thank you so much again for listening. Your support makes all the difference. A simple follow or subscription, a rating and review gives a huge boost to the podcast. Not only is this super impactful for the show, but it also really helps others who might be struggling with some of these same things to find us. And I love hearing from each of you. So please follow the show on Instagram at it's both podcast to join the conversation and get behind the scenes content. You can also send me an email directly at it's both podcast at gmail.com. Thank you again for listening. And remember, it's okay to feel all the things because so many times in life, it isn't either or it's both.
