- Speaker #0
that the that i think peace and freedom and like serenity or salvation however you want to talk about it i really believe is found in sitting in the space of learning to love people that are hard to love whether that be someone who's stuck in their addiction someone who disagrees politically somebody who has really unlikable personality traits but the sort of work of i think christianity in my in my opinion uh the work of the spiritual journey is learning to like mine for the goodness in anything and everybody.
- Speaker #1
Welcome to It's Both, the podcast where we explore the messy, beautiful contradictions of being human. I'm your host, Nikki P, and each week I sit down with real people navigating life's complexities, those moments when life isn't just one thing, it's so many. And this week, I'm joined by one of my friends, Steve. He is a pastor, a person who's experienced recovery, and someone who deeply understands the complexities of love, faith, and human connection. Our conversation is about what it really means to love people who are hard to love, not in theory, but in real life. Steve shares his reflections on grace, recovery, boundaries, and the messy beauty of relationships. We talk about how community shapes us, what it means to love with both compassion and responsibility, and how sometimes the most loving thing we can do is to love from a distance. So if you've ever wrestled with the tension of holding love for someone while also needing to protect your own peace, this is for you. So let's jump in. Well, welcome, Steve. It's so good to have you. Thank you. I'm excited to talk today. And before we jump in, I just want you to take a minute and tell everybody a little bit about who Steve is.
- Speaker #0
Well, I am the husband of the inaugural podcast interviewee. I'm Steve Lefevre. And I am a pastor in the Methodist Church, the United Methodist Church. And right now I'm serving in Pleasant View. But I will be actually moving to Dyersburg in like a month. So we're in the middle of that thing. And I'm getting a full dose of the moving around of pastors.
- Speaker #1
And breaking my heart and everybody's hearts here in Nashville.
- Speaker #0
No, I'm not. We've been in Nashville for 20 years. I went to Belmont University where I became your husband's best buddy in the whole wide world. so we played that. heavy metal band there together and that was really fun and um i have three boys a 10 year old an eight year old and a three year old and we're in the season of life where um we have a lot to do and the three-year-old makes everything like way harder and so and so it's uh would not recommend to wait that long to have a three-year-old um so yeah so yeah i'm that's that's i think a without me I like I still play baseball. I think that's a fun fact. It is a fun fact. And your husband joins me in that baseball sometimes.
- Speaker #1
He does.
- Speaker #0
It is one of the more socially unacceptable things that I do is tell people I play baseball. And people are like, explain. And you're like, I can't. I just, we get together in a ballpark and play a very slow version of baseball together.
- Speaker #1
But you're leaving out a key point, which is you guys wear blue jeans.
- Speaker #0
Yes, we are the Blue Jean Baseball Club. And we started wearing blue jeans. The whole thing was like a shtick. And then one by one, we all learned that playing baseball in blue jeans is absolutely no fun. And so we found other means and workarounds. It was awful. Yeah. And so, yeah. So I played regular baseball pants. But anyway, but the spirit of the blue jeans lives on. So yeah. Anyway.
- Speaker #1
So, okay. A little bit deeper outside of all that stuff. What is a little bit about you beyond that?
- Speaker #0
Yeah. so I um I am a pastor. I was in youth ministry for 15 years. And a significant part of my ministry has been sort of rooted in recovery, like 12-step recovery, which really was because out of a necessity because my mother was a really violent alcoholic. And I mean violent, not she was violent, but the alcoholism was really. persistent for her. And she ended up actually dying of alcoholism in 2020. But in that sort of journey of learning to love her, learning to sort of heal from the trauma that is being an adult child of an alcoholic, recovery kind of became a significant part of my journey and kind of became the thing that I gave away as I did ministry. So yeah, so that's, I think some of what I want to chat with you about today is kind of how to fit in that space that recovery has Taught me to sit in. And yeah, see where we go.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, I think that's great. So and a perfect segue. So talk about what is the kind of the bothness or the tension that you want to talk about today and tell me how that shows up for you.
- Speaker #0
Yeah, I think. I think what I've learned in my journey is that I think peace and freedom and serenity or however you want to talk, salvation, however you want to talk about it, I really believe is found in sitting in the space of learning to love people that are hard to love. Whether that be someone who's stuck in their addiction, someone who disagrees politically, somebody who has really unlikable personality traits, but the work of, I think, Christianity, in my opinion, the work of the spiritual journey is learning to like mine for the goodness in anything and everybody. And that's, that's more than just like sort of the mental gymnastics of like staying optimistic, but like actually doing the work of like digging in and, um, and, and sort of finding love or kinship or friendship or staying in relationship with people. Like in a lot of it's like in our own families, like how do we stay in relationship with people that we don't get along with or don't Like or don't. agree with. I found a lot of peace in doing that work and recovery kind of was the mechanism that really helped make that possible.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. And I mean, I feel like it's so incredibly hard, especially when, because I have a lot of people in my life that I can understand this with, right? Like a lot of people that I truly love that are also incredibly hard to love, that have been incredibly hurtful, that have had addictions or unhealthy. coping mechanisms that then affect me but i have chosen to keep them in my life because i do love them and similar to you i find the goodness in them however i know a lot of people that go why why like why not keep like why not just say goodbye to all the people in your life that aren't where they need to be and so talk to me a little bit about that and why it's so important for you to like keep those people in your life because i think they
- Speaker #0
People never go away. Like I think about, I think about like my own, my own, my mom, my mom and dad, right? They, we had, there was some tumultuousness in that upbringing, you know, having a, just a dysfunctional family, you know, and a lot of us have dysfunctional families. So I'm not special in that, but, but, you know, there's always hurt feelings and there's always. Just bad memories and traumas and things like that. Every family has them, I believe. But just like even with my dad, every time I'm like, ah, you know, it is what it is. And, you know, we're just going to agree to disagree and go our separate ways. There always seems to be a gravity in that relationship that sort of pulls me back in to go, no, you need to keep working on this. No, you need to stay in it. No, you need to, you know, keep working on it. And I do. I think our relationships have gravity to them. And we can resist that gravity or we can sort of move with the flow of these things. But that doesn't mean we always have to be the most intimate relationships with each other. It doesn't mean that even if a relationship is toxic or somebody is not working out with you, it doesn't mean we have to stay in it and be their best friend. But it does certainly mean that we have to make peace with that relationship in one way or another. and choosing love, choosing forgiveness, choosing to reconcile, I think is the path that actually gives us a peace that like you can't take away, that you can't, that can't be just, you know, stolen from you. I don't know. Yeah. So.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. I like that term too, like the gravity of it. Cause I've never thought about it like that, but I think that's a very accurate description. I really like, at least in my experience, what it is like, there's nothing logically that I could tell you brings me back. to these people, but it is something deep inside. Now there have been times that, you know, the caveat to this is obviously there have been a couple of times in my life where I've had to end a relationship because it was unhealthy and abusive and toxic. But I think more often than not, I mean, that's really only happened a couple of times. So more often than not, it is this like deep in my soul. I'm like, no, I have to, something is pulling me back to them. Whether that is If you believe in God, if there's like the spiritual aspect or if this, I don't know what the connection is, but I think it definitely resonates with me what you're saying about that.
- Speaker #0
Well, I mean, I think foundational to my Christian belief is that like love is eternal, right? God is love. And like, and so when I love, I'm engaging in something divine. And I feel like I really, this really came true for me when I, when my grandmother died a couple of months ago. And it sort of forced me back into conversations and relationship with people I had not seen in 20 years. My family back in San Diego. And it was fascinating because we had lost touch, you know, because I'd moved out to Nashville because my mother had died. And so I kind of lost that ambassador, that liaison to that family. And and so in some ways I had kind of resolved subconsciously like, oh, those people don't care about me anymore. Oh, I've moved on. They've moved on. What's the point of even working on the relationship? But then my grandmother dies and my grandmother asked that as, you know, as one of the pastors in the family, there's actually two of us that she asked that we both do the funeral. So it forced me to go fly back out to San Diego and see some relatives I hadn't seen in decades. And... It was just so heartening to see that even though there wasn't 20 years of, you know, relationship that we've kept up with, like the love was still there. Like the affection that we had for each other was still there. Our, wherever we left off in the relationship was there. And I was just so like, it was so affirming to my theological belief of like, love is eternal. Love is the only thing that matters. God is love. to find that like that the love was right where I left it. And so, so yeah, I think, I think there's, there's a reality there that like, yeah, we can, we can push off love or we can create space or we can create distance between us, but there's something about our interconnectedness that just doesn't go away. Even after death, even after breakups, even after, I think there's just something about being human and our being made for community that like. It's just it's and again, it's a gravity that sort of pulls us constantly pulling us back together. And it's almost sometimes more work to cut it off than it is to just just go with the flow of it. You know,
- Speaker #1
yeah, it reminds me. I don't like to use this term because I grew up in such a conservative Christian culture that this term gets taken anyway. But it makes me think of growing up. They used to talk about soul ties. Yeah. Yeah. See, again. Not saying I love it. I actually hate that term so much. But I bring it up because I hear you talk and I know like you understand my religious trauma and a lot of people's religious traumas. But I think gravity is so much more an appropriate word for what this experience is than a soul tie. But, you know, something you said earlier, too, as you started this, you were talking about addiction and the work of addiction. And how that's brought you to this place of like the tension of loving people that are difficult to love.
- Speaker #0
Yeah.
- Speaker #1
How, I guess like going back to when this started to come up for you, whatever age that was. Like talk to me about how you first started to notice this, the tension of this both. And also when did the addiction piece come into it?
- Speaker #0
Yeah. So in the Gospel of John... I just preached on this on Sunday, so it's real fresh. But there's a story of a man who has been laying on a mat for 38 years. And Jesus comes upon him. And the curious thing about the text is there's nothing about the place that he's sitting in or nothing about this particular man, we don't even know his name, that has any sort of context or backstory. It's just this random person that Jesus encounters. And all he does, he doesn't ask him anything about himself. He just asks him, do you want to be made well? And you would expect the man to say, well, yeah, of course. This sucks to lay on this mat. for 38 years. But instead, he kind of gives him this big, long sort of over-disclosure about his plot in life, his plight. And he's sort of sitting by this pool because he believes that if he wins a race against other crippled people, that he will be healed by the angel who stirs the water. The whole thing is like this crazy superstition. And Jesus kind of pushes all that aside and just tells them stand up, take your mat and walk. And so I love that. I love that story as a sort of parable of I think where we're all at at certain points in our life where we are. We have kind of resigned ourselves to our shame. We've kind of resigned ourselves to our sort of lot in life that like, oh, life is terrible. Life's hard. Life is full of conflict. Life, you know, my addiction is just what it is. And I'm just going to learn with live with it. And, you know, and so for me, that looked like, you know, once I came to realize that, like, oh, like. I could get some pity from people if I told them my parents were divorced, my mom's an alcoholic, and like they would, it would give me some leeway or it would offer me some grace. And so what I started to do was sort of just like hoard all of that pity and all of that. And what ends up happening is I, what grew out of it was this tremendous shame complex where I was constantly having to explain myself to people for why my life wasn't turning out the way I wanted it to, for why, you know, I was still single at 25 years old or why I was. you know, super underemployed out of college. And, you know, I'd say it's just constantly trying to, trying to help people see why, make excuses for why like my life was hard. And it really wasn't until I got into recovery and started to take moral inventory and started to sort of assess the people that I have hurt in my own life and took a look at my own character defects and just did all these inventories. I mean, I think so much of the 12 step work is not, you know it is it's about taking inventory and then taking action, right? Like taking an assessment of like the life that I've lived and then taking responsibility for it. And what you find, and my wife says this all the time, and I don't know where she got it from. And so if anybody's listening and knows where she got it from, please tell me. But she says that none are to blame, but all are responsible. And so it's this idea that like, if you take inventory of your life, if you take inventory, a moral inventory, a fearless and searching moral inventory of your life, what you'll find is that like. you're not to blame for any of it. Yeah, you've done some crappy things. Yeah, you've struggled. Yeah, you have some character defects. You've cut some corners and you've hurt some people along the way. But there's a perfectly good and reasonable explanation for it, right? Because I grew up in an alcoholic home, because I was abused as a child. I wasn't, but because I was abused as a child, because somebody harmed me when I was in college or something like that. Yes. I live in this violent and chaotic and frustrating world that is dog eat dog and survival of the fittest. And I'm just doing the best I can to survive. And that's why I've done the awful things I've done to people. And so there's just both the sense of like, oh, like, look at all these things that I've done. But also look at all the ways in which, of course, I did it. You know, of course, I, you know, of course, I am where I am. And I think that's where like grace really sort of kind of. unfolds in the midst of all that to where I'm able to forgive myself and I'm able to seek forgiveness from others. And I'm able to just have a deeper sense of understanding about like the human condition, about the thing that we're all struggling with and we're all going through. And so, yeah. So I think, I think for me, like when it comes to how do I like the unlikable, how do I love the unlovable? How do I stay in relationship with the people that are hard to stay in relationship with. It's that. It's the understanding that like, oh, look, I am a participant in this too. And I have responsibility in this too. And if in doing my own search, I've dug this deep and found grace and I found hope and I found healing, then everyone in this world is potentially on that journey as well, which just gives me such a sense of like pause before I. judge others. It gives me such a sense of pause before I write somebody off, before I pull the plug on a relationship, or before I just kind of just writ large, just write a whole group of people off because they're nuts or because their politics are ridiculous or because, you know, even their religion is wackadoodle. You know, I don't know. For me, it's all about sort of taking that moment of pause to go, there's probably something I don't understand here or I don't know the whole story on. And if you would just tell me the whole story, then I would certainly find grace and compassion and mercy for that.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. And that's hard because then, I mean, how many times do people not want to tell their whole story? Which I get, which makes sense, right? Like, yeah.
- Speaker #0
Because this world's not safe, right?
- Speaker #1
Right, of course. But that makes it hard, right, then for each of us to go, gosh, if I only knew the whole story, I could understand. But I'm having to just assume the best intent here and go. You know, you're not going to tell me your story or I'm not going to know your story. And yet I'm going to assume there's a lot I don't understand and assume this kind of like idea of grace or compassion that can cover that. But that's really hard. Like that's such a hard thing to do. It's a hard balance.
- Speaker #0
It's funny. Think about think about I'm just thinking as you're saying that I'm thinking about like Walter White in Breaking Bad. Right. Like, yes, absolutely horrible. Like the antihero of antiheroes, right? Killing people and murdering them so he could sell more meth. And yet we're cheering for him because we know the whole story. Because we're like, oh, man, he's dying of cancer and he's trying to do right by his family. And he's trying to have his own adventures. And his colleagues screwed him over at the university. And like now he's just a lowly high school teacher, you know. And so we're cheering for him all along the way because we found. the capacity to do that because of his story. You know, and I think we got obsessed with the antiheroes 10 years ago because of that. Like all of a sudden it was this new access point where we're like, Oh, like I can love really unlovable people, you know? And that's that good, you know, Sopranos and, and Madman.
- Speaker #1
The last of us.
- Speaker #0
The last of us. Oh, that's a great one. Yes. Like it's all about like teaching us to love unlovable people. And like, these people are despicable. If you knew these people, they did things like that, you know? But so yeah, absolutely.
- Speaker #1
It's such a great example. And honestly, what you were saying earlier that I was thinking about that I haven't quite thought of in this term before, but it's almost like there's this paradox between absolving ourselves. ourselves of responsibility and taking responsibility. And that seems so conflicting and in conflict with each other, right? Like that is a paradox. And yet, where those two overlap is that special space, right? Like the special sauce of I can take responsibility and give myself compassion. And like, it feels like such a fine line where the two meet. And it's so hard to do because you can't live in either one completely, right? Like you can't live in I have no responsibility for anything because that's obviously not good or healthy. Yeah. So I think that's such like a really, really good point that you bring up because I have not thought about that.
- Speaker #0
Well, there's always consequences for our behavior and our choices. And I'm not saying that life is without those. Like if I, you know, if I cheat on my wife, like. There's probably a perfectly good explanation for why I decided to do that. You know, my loveless marriage or my wife was just a horrible woman. But the consequences of that choice is I'm probably going to get divorced, right? Yeah, yeah. And that is what it is. But, by the way, my wife is wonderful and I have no intention. But I just want to do this disclaimer. But, yeah, and I think there is. I think we live in a society that, like. Well, in the post-modernity of things where you're like, what is morality? And, you know, just because it's immoral for you doesn't mean it's immoral for me. There's still going to be consequences for the choices we make. But again, that's not what good does the blame do? The question then is, okay, what's the next right step, right? What's the next thing that we need to do to take responsibility now that we've made the choices that we've made? And we're living in the consequences that we're living in.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, yeah, that's a great point. Without saying names, like you don't have to say names, but can you give some examples of like, when you think about this tension, right? Loving the unlovable, liking the unlikable. What are some examples of how has this shown up for you in a real life context?
- Speaker #0
Well, so like the church I'm currently working for, like we, you know, it's the United Methodist Church. You don't know about church politics, which I don't know why you would, but you know, in our current denomination, like we're really struggling. We've gone through a really dark season of people leaving the denomination, whole churches leaving the denomination. We've lost like 40% of our people. A lot of that leaving was on the sort of same political fault lines. And so it was a lot of people that were sort of more conservative, more traditionalist in their thinking. But this particular church, we had a split, but the people that stayed, stayed for a cacophony of reasons. You know, when I first got here, I was like, well, they stayed down in Methodist, so maybe they're more progressive leaning. And it wasn't the case. I mean, it really is a wide spectrum and a big tent, as we like to say in the Methodist church. And, you know, at first I, you know, it was just like, people would say things that would just kind of like hit my nervous system in a way like, oh, that's, you know, I wouldn't, I wouldn't talk about God that way. I wouldn't talk about other people that way. I wouldn't, you know, talk about politics that way. And, and just was like, ugh. But what I found is, people are good. I mean, this group of people, even some people whose politics I find just absolutely horrendous.
- Speaker #1
Yeah.
- Speaker #0
Like these same people are, you know, checking in on each other when they're in the hospital. These same people are building wheelchair ramps for people who are shut in. These same people are, you know, caring for their neighbors in ways that I may not even care for my neighbor in ways, you know. And so what I've found again is... There's more to the story. And just because I'm for this sort of politic doesn't mean they're against the politic for the same reasons. You know, like they're for this politic probably for different reasons that I'm against it, you know. And so, again, even people's like the reason why they stand on one side or the other, there is an entire story there that like I have no way. able to make assumptions about. And so, yeah, for me, like to sit in this, you know, this very conservative area in Tennessee and serve a group of people that are all over the map politically, like through a season of an election that was really contentious in the last year.
- Speaker #1
Just to clarify, you're saying all this from a non-conservative, like what you're saying is because you're not conservative, like the tension here is having to be around that part of the Yeah,
- Speaker #0
yeah. Yeah, I mean, I try to that's an even more complicated conversation.
- Speaker #1
Sorry, you probably don't even have to answer. We can even skip that. Well,
- Speaker #0
I would say that no, no, I would say this. I mean, I would say this is I'm not from this area. I don't talk the talk and walk the walk, but somehow I found a way to endear myself to this community that did involve me taking a position on things that people weren't asking me to take a position on, right? Like we live in a world where like corporate organizations are asking us to pick a side in the culture wars you know like my bank i heard my i heard somebody be like my bank was asking me to like take a position on what you know this or that issue and i think he was being i think he was being facetious but but the point is is like we live in such a world of like sides and like picking a side and like and i and i have my opinions i'm not saying i don't sure But what if I didn't have to voice them all the time? What if I didn't have to like choose whether or not I hang out with this person because they have the same or different? And again, the more we get to know each other, the more we grow in compassion for each other. And we grow in compassion for people's opinions, you know. And so I don't know. Yeah, like I said, I think the ways I've endeared myself to this community and not just the Methodist church here, but like. Pleasant View writ large, they're throwing a going away party for my family at the baseball field next door. And I can guarantee you, I don't vote the same way as many of those people do. But we're at the base. They're throwing a going away party for our base. We've only been here for two years. They're like, we love you. We're so sad you're leaving. And I'm like, we just got here. I think it's because of love. I think it's because we are authentically and genuinely loving people for who they are, where they're at. And again, a lot of that sounds like some Christian platitudes, but like, I think if you actually do the mining and the work and the, the staying in, uh, staying in it, even when my nervous system is like, like there's some, there's, there's some really good, um, there's some goodness in that. And, and, and that's, I think that's what I've been discovering at, in this place is I, I just feel like there's such an impulse right now to, to, to get a few talking points figured out about people. Like do the, do the sort of dig, like, let me dig around a little bit and see where you stand on some issues. And some people are just really tough. Like some people, like they're so, they're so in it. They're like so spiritually formed by the media they watch and they're so spiritually formed by their. you know, they're the things are clicking on in the internet that they are, they're just, there's some possible. And they're, they're like the cringe is so painful, but for the vast majority of people, it isn't that way. And I'm finding so much good in people that I wouldn't normally have eyes to see if I didn't stay in it a little bit longer than my nervous system wanted me to get out.
- Speaker #1
Oh yeah.
- Speaker #0
Yeah.
- Speaker #1
Well, so how do you like get your nervous system to calm the heck down enough to because I think that's if I had to guess, I don't have any science behind this, like research behind this, but like my guess is that's the thing that kicks people out. Like one of the one of the top two, like nervous system or like triggers, whatever you want to call it. You know, you hear something and you're like, OK, this person is a Republican conservative, whatever. And I'm not I'm out like I can't talk to this person or vice versa. Right. So like how do you get past the nervous system reaction enough to go uh, okay, let me dig deeper. Like, do you have to take a break? Do you have to like, come back to that person? Like, what does that look like in practice?
- Speaker #0
So that to me is what the, what Christianity is, right? So why do I meditate? Why do I read scripture? Why do I take communion? Why do I like all of this stuff is rehearsal and practice and, and formation around being with people. Like, I really do think that the whole way of Jesus is like learning to love. people that you're not supposed to love. Right. You know, J.D. Vance said something really ridiculous a couple of months ago, and they're asking about his Catholicism. And he was like, well, first you love your family and then you love your friends and then you love your country or whatever it was. I'm like, yeah, I'm like, everybody does that. That's not special. That's not Christian. That's that's just like what you do. And so it was kind of a way of excusing his his need to love, you know, refugees and immigrants. And and yet my Christianity tells me, no, I have to love. everyone, regardless of their race, their gender. In Galatians 3, it's like, we're no longer male or female, slave or free, Greek or Jew. There is this deep ingrained in my theology, and this is what I learn about when I read scripture, when I sing the hymns, when I take communion with other people, is I'm learning to discover the truth is that through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ, we are one. So... And so what you have in the stories of Jesus is this man walking around being like, yep, see that guy over there? You got to love him. See those people on the fringes of society? You got to love them. Yeah, the Samaritans? You got to love them. You got to remember the Jews and Samaritans hated each other as much, if not more than, you know, Republicans and Democrats hate each other, right? Like the whole ministry of Jesus was literally just walking and talking and pointing and showing human dignity to people that were forgotten, were kicked out, were hated. Jews and Gentiles alike. And it was just a simple message of like, you don't get any excuses about getting out of loving. There's no getting out of loving someone. You have to figure out how to be in relationship with them. And so my practice of Christianity is a training exercise in that, which means I don't get it perfect every time, which means I get an ick factor when I meet certain people. And I think in the same way, we've got to train to love each other. And we've got to train to teach our nervous systems that fight or flight response or that, you know, that cringe or whatever it is that keeps me from at a distance from people. Like maybe, maybe that my nervous system is lying to me. I need to retrain my nervous system, you know. In the same way, though, like that's not a bad thing. Like I also, in our both and thinking like, you know, there's certain people and this is what I've learned in recovery. and also You know, with like my mother, like I had to keep her at a certain distance at certain times and certain seasons in order for me to be able to heal, in order for me to be able to feel the feelings I'm feeling. And so, yeah, and so the sort of the both and thinking is like, yes, we have hope that I can love everybody. I have a I have a theology that says I need to love everybody, but it might not be the time or the place to love them. But I can detach without slamming the door shut and locking it. I can walk away with a full intention that eventually one day I will be ready to come back. And I think that in so many ways is the journey as well, is trusting the process and all of that.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. Yeah. I think that's important because it might just be not right now. And I think that's a really good way to look at it because I think a lot of people have a hard time with that. It is like, oh, we are. we are going to be in close relationship or I'm going to say goodbye and we're never going to talk again. And it's like, well, there are levels of, of in between. And many, I think, as you were describing it, many people in my life, family, friends, where I do, I go, we are never, probably never going to be at a deeper level than this just by nature of some issues they're working on or I, well, that they're not working on, I should say. Right. So I know we're going to forever kind of be at this distance, but I'm here. I have my boundaries. I'm here. And I'm going to love them the best that I can from this at this level, knowing it's not going to go deeper. Probably like being open to it, but going realistically, that's not going to happen.
- Speaker #0
Yeah.
- Speaker #1
And sitting in that tension is hard.
- Speaker #0
Because what how has resentment ever served me? Right. Like, how has me ever been around those people who've just compiled? years and years of resentment because it's the only way they've been they figured out how to protect their hearts from being hurt again and they're the most exhausting people to be around because all they want to talk about is all the people who've screwed them and I just go that's not peace that's not wholeness that's not that's not living life fully present to to the people and the and and myself and so yeah I think I again I think there we're always healing and we're always working towards a more whole version of ourselves that has a bigger capacity.
- Speaker #1
If you're like me and dinnertime creates so much anxiety and stress and you have very little time, especially if you have kids, from the time you get home until bedtime, let me suggest Hungry Root. Hungry Root has been a game changer for our family. Every week I go in and I pick out our meals for the following week. I get to select four servings, which is huge. A lot of delivery services don't. allow for multiple servings like that, but it's enough to feed our family. They are really affordable, but significantly cheaper than what you would get with some of the other subscriptions out there that tend to be very pricey and fancier, I would say, than Hungry Root. But it also offers a lot of healthy options. And so you can pick different dietary restrictions. Like I usually always select anti-inflammatory for the family, which is like a lot of fish, a lot of veggies, a lot of chicken. But you can also select vegan, vegetarian, high protein, gluten-free, all these different variations that you can choose from. That's affordable. It's healthy. And almost every single meal is less than 30 minutes to make. And oftentimes if it's more than 30 minutes, it's just the bake time that takes a little bit longer. The prep time on almost all of these meals is very minimal that even somebody like me who has self-proclaimed that I do not like to cook because it creates anxiety and stress in me, I can even make these meals. It's been easy on my husband, who's the one that cooks, because I prepare ahead of time, like what the recipes are going to be. I pick them on hungry route and I choose things that are easy for his preference that I know him and the kids and myself are going to like. And it's made our dinnertime routine. so much easier in a way that none of the other subscriptions have. And it's yet still affordable as if we were going to the grocery store and getting our groceries. So if you want to try it out, I highly recommend it regardless of if it's just you, just you and a partner or you and kids. It works for any size family, any size household. And if you're interested, you can click the link below and get $50 off your first box. What it feels like for you, I mean, this is so connected to your spiritual. beliefs. Right. Like your Christianity, your experience with God, this feels like very innately connected to that. Would, would that be accurate?
- Speaker #0
Yeah. Oh yeah. It's horrible fear of abandonment. Right. So I'm like, I want to figure out a way to never, people never leave me. No. Yeah. I think, I think for me it was such a, um, I've had such rich experiences of community. I think about like the fact that When I was 19 years old or 18 years old, I was going to Arizona State. And I was lonely at Arizona State because I was this Christian kid who had no business being at a place like Arizona State. All the rumors about it are 100% true about it being a party school. At least they were in 2004. So anyway, in 2004, I take a fall break trip out to Nashville. And this is how I ended up at Belmont. And a group of friends, a really close friend of mine who had... who moved from Phoenix to Belmont took me with his group of friends to this lake house in Kentucky. And it was this like super rich, affirming, loving, like laughing, filled time together with this group of guys so much so that I was like, I am transferring tomorrow to Nashville. And I did. And I, and I came here and I had this really rich experience. And, and then, you know, we all turned 21 and booze got inserted into the picture. And so things got a little bit harder and we all started, you know, doing things that, you know, some of us are not so proud of. And so that perfect little community got blown up in so many ways. And actually, I'm still best friends with most of those guys that I moved out here for, which is such a grace. But even that, I mean, I think about how much work that was for me where there was so much resentment and frustration and the fact that are perfect little utopia got blown up because of you know girls and alcohol and you know just growing up and becoming adults who had you know who loved jesus or didn't love jesus or you know had certain morals or didn't have certain morals or was pursuing certain careers and not others it was just like the nature of people choosing their own path and i hated it because it was like it meant people had to leave me and i felt so abandoned by it But so for me, like it's been that work is like I felt deep senses of connection, whether it was through Christian community or just, you know, organic friendship community. And I've also felt like deep loneliness and I felt deep abandonment, whether that was through friendships or families or whatever. You know, the heartbreak of breakups and things like that. And and so for me, it's just been, OK, how do I have peace knowing that this is the reality of life, that we go through seasons of deep connection? and we also go through seasons of... of wilderness and loneliness. And, and so what I've found in this work is that's a sort of both and way of seeing it and, and tools to navigate the wilderness and tools to be very present when things are, when the going is good. And so, yeah, so yeah, I'm very much informed by my story and, and, and out of necessity, you know, I've, I've really struggled in my life with depression and anxiety and panic disorder and horrible codependency. And I've been, I've been. very cruel to people in those moments because of how much neediness I had and them not having any ability, capacity, or desire to meet me and all that neediness, you know? And now that I'm a dad and a husband, like I'm really, you know, I'd like to stay married and like my kids to still like me when they're adults. And so, you know, so some of this is, again, it's born out of that. I mean, how much of parenting is like learning to accept my children for who they are? and not who I want them to be, you know? And I'm like, oh my gosh, you know, it comes out especially on the ball field. No,
- Speaker #1
yeah.
- Speaker #0
That's just the start of it. Yeah.
- Speaker #1
I completely get that. And I think that's, it's so good to hear like your experience in that because I think that's really impactful. I think that really connects. I think most of us can say, yes, I understand fully what you're saying and that speaks to me. And I think I was just wondering too, because so much of, I think, how you're identifying this love the unlovable, like the unlikable. you have this foundation in God and your spiritual beliefs. And I'm thinking about those who maybe either aren't a part of a church anymore or a religious belief or just don't believe in that, don't have any kind of religious ties. What would you say to them for this experience of liking the unlikable, loving the unlovable without that basis of this is what God says and love and the Christian aspect of it? What might you say to those individuals?
- Speaker #0
Yeah, because to be fair, this is very informed by my theology, right? I believe that God created the world and God said the world is good. And so the people that God created to be in this world are good. I really like the way that Methodists talk about original sin. It's not that we are born evil. It's that we are all faced with the pressures and the plight of our human condition. And because of that, like we all inevitably fall susceptible to the struggle of being human. And that is how we describe original sin in the Methodist Church. And I really like that because it helps me to say that there's a goodness underneath all of that in everybody. Again, so then every relationship is a sort of mining expedition to see the goodness that's promised to me in my theology. Right. And so it's almost based on all these hypotheses, you know, and so far haven't been proven wrong. No, I've never in my work of small groups, whether they were at a church or they were at a YMCA or they were in a jail. I've done these sort of recovery groups, you know, all over Nashville and actually in other countries as well. In all of this work, I've never, ever, ever. We're talking about people in jail. We're talking about people in churches. Like, I've never heard somebody tell me their story and I have not found a way to love them through their story, through the curiosity about who they are. And again, that my my even meeting them where they're at to hear that story is because I believe that God made this world good. And there is good in everything and everybody because God is in everything and in everybody. And God is love and love is the highest form of good. Right. So. Yeah. So, yes. But also, so if you're somebody who doesn't ascribe to that, who doesn't have that sort of information downloaded into their soul. has to spend a lifetime you know reading a bible that promises these things i would just go back to like i i mean i would just go back to these sort of universal human conditions which is like we all have a need to belong we all have a need to have something some sense of significance we all have a deep need for meaning we all have you know there was that whole thing in world war ii where they had these these all these orphans in england because of after the london bombings and It was the... orphan babies that were held and loved by nurses that survived and the ones who didn't were not. So like there is something about loving one another that is an essential need of being human. And so for me, I just go to to get that love that we're looking for is going to require help. Right. And so recovery does a beautiful thing in that it doesn't require you to have a doctrinal. um, subscription to a certain, it literally is like, you just need a higher power. You just need to admit that you need help in this work of loving and being loved in this work of being unbinded from the things that enslave us as human beings. Um, and, and so to me, I just go, whatever level of God you need to be convinced that you need other people, um, I'll meet you there and we'll talk about it. And I will, and I, and I'm not, I'm not at all interested in making you believe what I believe. Except that you need other people to get through this life. And I would like to argue that I don't think we have enough time to pick and choose the perfect community. We're just kind of in the communities we're in. And in a lot of ways, we're in the communities that we're in for seasons. And so what better place than here and what better time than now to quote Rage Against the Machine than for us to love where we're at and who we're with. And I think that to me is just, is the work. And I love the fact that Jesus gives me not only permission to do that, but also like a roadmap for how that's possible.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. But that's, that's so true because it is a human condition. And I think no matter where you go, no matter what belief system you have, no matter what country you're in, you see fundamental things that research has shown. Like we humans need people. We need each other. We need community. We flourish in community. We do not flourish in isolation. And so I think, yeah, no matter what your beliefs are, this idea that we should be committing to working to love each other i mean it has to be above almost anything else in my opinion because if we don't what world like what world are we living in it's a point i you know it's like what like the the
- Speaker #0
story that gets told over and over and over again you know like citizen kane and uh like you can have the whole what what good is the world if you forfeit your soul you're like what good is to have everything you could ever want but no one to share it with like These are very like resounding platitudes in American culture. And yet, you know, we still pursue a rugged individualism.
- Speaker #1
We can't stop. We can't stop.
- Speaker #0
We can't help ourselves. Let me just do it myself.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. Has there ever been a time where you've had to flip into that space of saying, okay, actually this is toxic. This is abusive or unhealthy. I need to end this relationship. Yeah.
- Speaker #0
I mean, so I think about my mom. And there were seasons when, you know, I think as a, when she was, she, when she was good, she was so good. And when she was off the wagon, she was, it was really hard. And so, you know, she would, she would call and she, and there'd be seasons of life where I just didn't have the capacity to really navigate a difficult relationship with her. And she'd call and I'd say, she slurred her speech. Was she, did she say things that were weird? and I'd end a phone call with her where I'd be like, Like I'd just be a mess trying to like dissect and pick apart the phone call that we just had. And it would just, it would just wreck my sense of peace. And so I realized like my sense of peace is far more important than having these phone calls with my mom where I was just a mess afterwards. And so, yeah, I would go six months without calling her. Now, I'd still love her. I still care. And then, you know, I get a call from my stepsister and she'd say, hey, your mom's, you know, back in rehab. Your mom was found in a park face down with a bloody face or found sleeping in a parked car. And sometimes I'd go, oh, my gosh, tell me more about that. And other times I'd say, okay, thanks for letting me know. And then, you know, I'd move on because I just didn't have space for that at the time that I was in, you know. And so, yeah, again, I just think it's this sort of ebb and flow. And then there's romantic relationships that I had in my early 20s that some were more unhelpful than others. And it just kind of, you know. But I think there's a way to break up and there's a way to detach and there's a way to move on. And there's a way to even be grateful that for the time you had together in a way that doesn't pack in a bunch of resentment. in a way that doesn't... that doesn't have to be resentful and angry and bitter and, but can actually be full of gratitude. I just, I just think like I, I was, I was taught, I don't maybe, or maybe I learned, you know, how to. win when it came to breaking off relationships and I was pursuing this sort of I want to be the winner of this relationship yeah it's over and then I've learned and then you get there and you realize like it's hollow and it's a horrible thing to maintain and it's really lonely to be there and I don't don't really like myself who I am when I'm, you know, in the midst of this. So yeah. And so for me, it's just like, I think at the end, it just comes down to gratitude. Like what, what am I grateful for? What can I take away from this thing? And I find that I find that really healing in the midst. of relationships that do end. And giving permission, you know, like when people move away, giving permission when a relationship takes a one, five, 10, 20 year pause, like giving yourself permission to not feel shame and guilt that it's not being maintained, but trusting that the love is real and it will be there when I get back to it. And, and I've, I've found that to be very true. And, and so that gives me permission again, to just be grateful for the time that was had. And, and to recognize that, that I can learn to love again, or I can build new relationships and, and, and start new, you know, and, and, and new people will be blessed by that, you know, and myself included.
- Speaker #1
Yeah, that's really good. As we're wrapping up, I only have a couple more questions, but one thing I'm thinking is, has this ever... And maybe not, but I'm thinking of my own story here. Has this view, the way that and the importance of loving the unlovable, liking the unlikable, that's time and capacity, right? That's effort and that is work and it is hard work. Has that ever, because of that view and that time that you're giving to some of those more difficult relationships, has that in any way affected your steady, close, intimate relationships? And I don't just mean spouse, but like... could be spouse, could be family, friendships. Has that affected those relationships at all? Because you are spending time over here.
- Speaker #0
Oh, okay.
- Speaker #1
Right? Like I'm thinking of me with family. Like that's I dedicate to it, but maybe somebody in my life over here is like, I don't want to deal with that. Like that's taking time from us.
- Speaker #0
Yeah. So I would say that's probably a good litmus test for whether or not the work is, is we're like a codependency litmus test, right? Like if I'm doing the work and if I'm actually healing and if I'm actually creating the right space that I need to be a fully functioning human being, but stay in relationship with you, if I'm doing all that well, then all of my relationships are going to find more health and goodness and all, and people are going to, everyone's going to enjoy being around me more. Right. So I just think that's, I think perhaps that's a good litmus test of going, okay, I'm working on this relationship over here, but it's requiring 130% of my attention.
- Speaker #1
Yeah. Yeah.
- Speaker #0
You may think you may have a, you may feel a little bit better about how you're doing it, but it's, you're still, yeah, maybe, maybe there's still some work that needs to be done away from that. before you return back to that relationship.
- Speaker #1
So I'm a codependent. Got it. No, I, yeah, totally get what you're saying.
- Speaker #0
It's not, I don't, I think it's less individualized, right? It's like, it's not about this relationship with that person and how it compares to this relationship with that person. But like, how am I navigating the world in a way that is promoting grace and peace and mercy and goodness and kindness? and I just go no one should ever be jealous of the fact that I'm giving kindness here, here and here and here and here because it's going everywhere, right? It's not just going because I think the jealousy would come in when I am giving all of it to this other person over here codependently. Because they are, they're not, it's not a gravity relationship, but it's like a freaking black hole of a relationship. Yeah. That's fucking everything into it. Yeah. You know, it was funny. I was at, I was one of the guys at Sage Hill Counseling where I used to, I used to hang out with them a lot for like workshops and things like that. Anyway, he talked about, I think it was Stephen James. He talked about how his first time he was ever, he'd ever been in like a recovery setting. They asked him like. I'm going to start walking towards you and tell me when to stop when you feel uncomfortable with me walking towards you. And he was like 20 feet across the room. And he said that the guy took two steps towards him. He's like, that's close enough. And he said that was and I love that example because it is. I think we're all working on letting people closer and closer in. I'm working on how do I create more intimacy in all of my relationships. And so... So that I can feel fully my own feelings, right? And so we all, I think we all have, you know, I won't speak for everybody. I have lived my whole life with different dysfunctional relationships that have taken up too much of my time, that have taken up too much of my energy. And there's others that I've left undone. I've left neglected. And so, I don't know. I think there's a sense of sort of universality across our relationships that once we kind of get to that sweet spot, I think they all kind of work together in that way. So I don't know. Maybe I'm just making that up.
- Speaker #1
I don't think so. I don't think you know. No, that's good. Well, thank you for just sharing your stories, your experience, being vulnerable. I feel like this is a really tricky topic because a lot of people struggle with this, myself included. I think actually, I think all people to some level struggle with this. Right. So, yeah, thank you for just sharing all that and being willing to talk through it. And it was really good. And I think on a lighter note, I would love to know what is something that you do that is ridiculous or relatable.
- Speaker #0
So I have a oversized FOMO complex, fear of missing out. So I am 100% motivated and driven by fear of missing out. I only do anything because... because it includes other people doing it and I'll be with other people in it. So if you ask me, like, what do you like to do? Most of the time, it's like whatever we're going to do together is what I like to do, right? And like, what are your hobbies? Like, what are we doing? Those are our hobbies at the time. So like I've become a fly fisherman because my friends were all fly fishing. I play baseball because all my friends were playing baseball. I, you know, all the things that I'm interested in. I'm like in a book club now. I have probably 730. group chats going on at one time at one point in time that are all on various topics and subjects that, uh, that is just me not missing out on anything. So I would just say, yeah, I, I, you know, talk about codependency there. That's the one I'm still working out that like, uh, I don't need to be everywhere all the time with everybody.
- Speaker #1
That's such a good, it is so true. Cause there's so many times where I feel like we've been, I've been talking to Heather or some, you know, we happen to see somebody here and then Heather's like, wait, Steve wants to come. I'm like, oh, Steve's coming? She's like, yeah, Steve's coming.
- Speaker #0
I couldn't miss it.
- Speaker #1
And I love it. Everybody loves you around, so it works out.
- Speaker #0
Yes. I am 100% wired by FOMO. So that's my quirky.
- Speaker #1
Is that why you came on the podcast?
- Speaker #0
That's exactly why I came on the podcast. I was like, wait, wait a second. Why is Heather getting to be on the podcast? And then I was like looking at your other guests. I'm like, I know them too. And so anyway, I was just extremely left out.
- Speaker #1
That's so good. Oh man. Well, I love it. And it was so good to talk to you as always.
- Speaker #0
Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you.
- Speaker #1
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